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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-20

---Logopened Sun Jan 20 00:00:09 2013
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02:32<Hellowin>test
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04:03<@planetmaker>moin
04:13<@peter1138>hi
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04:13<@peter1138>hmmm, i wonder if...
04:16<@Alberth>moin
04:27<@planetmaker>hm, I should go vote... let's check wahl-o-mat whom to vote for :D
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04:33<Rubidium>planetmaker: if you're conservative, vote for the Fyra. That won't move for a long time ;)
04:33<V453000>if you want to have good fun voting, come to czech republic
04:34<@peter1138>hmm, yeah, that works but looks uuuuugly
04:34<@planetmaker>fyra? Sounds like a train project in the Netherlands? Not that I really heard much of it... but there's a question about whether the harbours should get better train connectivity here. Which they imho should
04:35<@planetmaker>not passenger, but cargo
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04:35<V453000>more beer, less passengers
04:35<@planetmaker>^^
04:35<V453000>sounds good to me
04:36<@planetmaker>less passengers by more beer is also feasible :D
04:37<Rubidium>planetmaker: so how's the third track from Zevenaar towards the Ruhr area going?
04:37<V453000>anything around more beer is very feasible, especially when improved by less people
04:39<@planetmaker>Rubidium: that's outside the authority which is up to vote by me today
04:40<@planetmaker>it's just lower Saxony parliament voting time. Not federal government
04:41<@planetmaker>(and honestly, I don't know how it's going)
04:41<@peter1138>so multistop docks work
04:42<@peter1138>but i don't like the amount of searching it needs :(
04:44-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
04:45<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
04:45<andythenorth>o/
04:45<andythenorth>Pikka
04:45<andythenorth>game?
04:45<andythenorth>peter1138 ^
04:47<@peter1138>maybe it would be beneficial to test if the current tile is within the area of the docks
04:49<andythenorth>ro-ro all the things
04:50*andythenorth refers to stations
05:06<@Alberth>o/
05:12-!-FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
05:29<andythenorth>it's FLHerne
05:29<andythenorth>playing MP?
05:29<FLHerne>What's me?
05:29*FLHerne has only just got past 'drink tea' :P
05:30<FLHerne>andythenorth: Not presently. Is an interesting MP game currently in existence?
05:30<andythenorth>FLHerne: it's on peter1138's server
05:31<andythenorth>we're all paused and waiting for you :P
05:31<FLHerne>Oh, really? :-)
05:31<FLHerne>What's the IP/server name?
05:31*FLHerne is a bit asleep still
05:32<andythenorth>peter1138's nightly
05:32<FLHerne>Ah, found it. Now I need different NewStats :-/
05:33<FLHerne>Stupid non-Bananas things...
05:33<FLHerne>Nice grf, irritatating distribution policy :D
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05:43<andythenorth>hrm
05:43*andythenorth needs multi-docks :(
05:43<@peter1138>trying to recreate that pbs bug
05:49<andythenorth>herp
05:50*andythenorth has livestock issues
05:51<andythenorth>hmm
05:51<andythenorth>maybe farms should have a lower requirement for supplies than extractive industry
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05:52*peter1138 blames it on andythenorth for deliberately crashing his trains in a station
05:52<andythenorth>'deliberately' :)
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06:00<@peter1138>new favourite way to play: enable colouring of dirty blocks and hold ctrl-B
06:00<andythenorth>it's like 1986
06:01<@peter1138>industry tiles update a lot
06:01<@planetmaker>hm, no supercheese here
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06:29<andythenorth>hmm
06:29*andythenorth tries to figure out a way to prioritise cargo for some routes
06:29<andythenorth>only loading vehicles for other routes when there's surplus
06:38<@Alberth>I was wondering about a distributed approach
06:38<@Alberth>each cargo has a destination. A train asks whether it wants to travel along, and the cargo can decide "yeah, you're going in the right direction", and hop on
06:40<@Alberth>where the simplest form of 'right direction' is distance to the target from the current location and from the next stop of the train
06:41<@Alberth>that might cost virtually no cpu time at all
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06:42<drac_boy>hi
06:43<andythenorth>Alberth: manhattan / pythag distance, or pathfinder?
06:44<@Alberth>in the first implementation, manhattan would be fine
06:44<andythenorth>so don't bother building the link graph/
06:45<andythenorth>?
06:45<@Alberth>the tricky bit where I am still stuck is how to decide the cargo won't get any further, so it is time to do final cost calculations
06:45<@planetmaker>Alberth, but that might lead to quite bad results, depending on the topology of the network
06:46<@Alberth>link graph is a more advanced form of deciding 'right direction'
06:47<@Alberth>planetmaker: I know, but we clearly don't yet understand how to do it efficiently enough when doing it centrally, so it needs a different approach
06:48<@planetmaker>:-) yup, agreed
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06:50<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
06:50<Wolf01>moin
06:52<fonsinchen>Is that approach n+3 to cargo destinations?
06:52<fonsinchen>I'd say distance to destination is too simple.
06:53<andythenorth>I did once figure out the concept
06:53<@Alberth>it is, no doubt about it
06:53<andythenorth>but the implementation was beyond me, even a test :P
06:53<@Alberth>but if you start from "we need optimal central path finding", you're never going to find a cheaper alternative
06:54<andythenorth>ah
06:54<andythenorth>my concept wasn't guaranteed optimal
06:54<andythenorth>in any form
06:54<andythenorth>it was shown that it could trivially be 'odd'
06:54<andythenorth>but it was simple
06:54<fonsinchen>how did it work?
06:55<andythenorth>key thing was that it didn't need a source-destination-cargo triple
06:55<andythenorth>just a destination-cargo pair
06:56<fonsinchen>Why destination? In my experience the most common pitfall is routing each cargo packet individually
06:56<fonsinchen>that is expensive.
06:56<fonsinchen>Cargodist just saves general directions for each source of cargo at each intermediary hop
06:57<andythenorth>idea was to work back from the destination
06:57<fonsinchen>That avoids routing calculations in the game loop.
06:57<andythenorth>just assign a weight to every node, in reverse, working outwards from destination
06:57<andythenorth>destination gets weight 0
06:57<andythenorth>each next link adds 1
06:57<@Alberth>ie hop-count
06:57<andythenorth>when routing a packet, take any valid route to a lower-weighted node
06:58<fonsinchen>what about parallel routes?
06:58<@Alberth>the're both valid, I guess
06:58<andythenorth>both valid
06:59<andythenorth>so one direct train, or a ship that goes halfway round the map (slowly) are both valid
06:59<andythenorth>which is sub-optimal
06:59<andythenorth>but who cares eh?
06:59<andythenorth>:)
06:59<andythenorth>the weightings only need recalculating when the topology changes
06:59<fonsinchen>The who cares question is important.
06:59<fonsinchen>Your algorithm does not take route capacities into account, either.
07:00<andythenorth>no
07:00<andythenorth>oh, I think I decided that the graph was made up of vehicle orders
07:00<fonsinchen>So you could run tons of cargo into a bottleneck.
07:00<andythenorth>yes
07:00<andythenorth>so build more vehicles
07:00<andythenorth>or change the route
07:01<andythenorth>it's sub-optimal
07:01<andythenorth>doesn't try to be optimal :)
07:01<fonsinchen>Well, sometimes you want something like a couple of helicopter connections to an oil rig but you don't want everyone traversing the oilrig to get from town A to town B...
07:01<andythenorth>call it StupidDispatcher
07:02<fonsinchen>I know that Cargodist is fairly complex in contrast with the scheme you're proposing. But it also does more.
07:02<andythenorth>another / complementary option: player defines cargo route (is that how simutrans does it?)
07:03<fonsinchen>Simutrans does routing on an individual packet level. That's part of the reason why it's so slow in contrast do openttd.
07:03<fonsinchen>No, the player does not manually define the routes.
07:03<andythenorth>hmm
07:03<fonsinchen>It's more like YACD.
07:04<fonsinchen>Destinations are predetermined independent of links.
07:05<andythenorth>idea: allow player to manipulate the weighting for a cargo-destination pair at a station :P
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07:05<@Alberth>haha, a good idea for total disaster :p
07:05<fonsinchen>nasty micromanagement hassle. We have the same problems with timetables. I guess we don't want to repeat that.
07:06<Wolf01>agreed
07:09<andythenorth>yup
07:11<andythenorth>oil rig case is...intriguing
07:11<andythenorth>because it's by no means the common case
07:11<Wolf01>micromanagemente could be good, some people want it, but I think it should be bypassable, at least we can play OTTD also without using timetables :P
07:12<andythenorth>I can't think of a way to handle special cases using generic methods
07:12<fonsinchen>You can also take the example of local bus networks of two towns intersecting at some remote station where once a month a bus arrives.
07:12<andythenorth>so that resolves to link capacity?
07:12<andythenorth>(I think the oil rig case is best ignored, it's the helicopters that matter)
07:13<Wolf01>you should be able to define some stations as hubs and don't let the cargo be transferred in non-hub stations
07:13<drac_boy>Wolf01 I always play 'simple' anyway ... that mean skipping most of the extra features even schedulings too :)
07:13<fonsinchen>Taking link capacity into account avoids sending too much cargo through that station.
07:13<andythenorth>how is link capacity reliably calculated? Empirically?
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07:13<fonsinchen>Measured as a moving average.
07:13<fonsinchen>Works fairly OK.
07:13<Wolf01>where "transferred" is not the transfer order but the destination handling
07:14<andythenorth>fonsinchen: I can't think of any other viable method ;)
07:14<fonsinchen>Cargodist does it with moving averages.
07:14<andythenorth>trying to predict link capacity from vehicle speed etc is....meh
07:14<fonsinchen>I can think of a better method though.
07:14<andythenorth>?
07:15<fonsinchen>https://github.com/fonsinchen/openttd-cargodist/issues/5
07:15<andythenorth>hrm
07:15<andythenorth>do you measure cargo transported, or actual capacity available?
07:15<fonsinchen>both
07:16<andythenorth>and what does auto-refit do to your stats?
07:16<fonsinchen>There is a funny prediction mechanism for that
07:16<fonsinchen>basically, if you do autorefit it does not work so accurately.
07:16<Wolf01>nice, I was looking for how a bus line capacity is calculated and I landed on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_stop#Fake_bus_stops we should really implement this :P
07:22<andythenorth>herp
07:22<andythenorth>my concept is screwed by auto-refit
07:22<andythenorth>there's no way to calculate the cargo-destination pairs using orders
07:23*andythenorth has a totally insane idea
07:23<fonsinchen>Oh, you can get pretty far with orders. Cargodist actually does that when a vehicle does full load or similar.
07:23<andythenorth>'refit' stations to handle cargos
07:23<andythenorth>station is either on the graph for a cargo, or not
07:24<andythenorth>and vehicles are universal and auto-refit :P
07:24<@Terkhen>hello
07:24<andythenorth>so routing is about nodes, and not the links
07:25<fonsinchen>That would piss off quite a few grf authors designing specific vehicles for specific cargo ...
07:26<andythenorth>currently nodes are transparent wrt cargo; the links specify what's transported :)
07:26<andythenorth>fonsinchen it would turn the game on its head :P
07:26<andythenorth>NUTS would be ideal for it though
07:27<fonsinchen>Well, explain it Ammler and see what he says ...
07:27<andythenorth>he
07:27<fonsinchen>I have to leave. Bye
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07:43<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r24923 trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp (2013-01-20 12:43:25 UTC)
07:43<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5441]: When an object built on a river is removed, restore the river, if possible also on slopes (based on patch by Supercheese)
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07:51<andythenorth>o_O
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07:57<Wolf01>quak frosch123
07:57<frosch123>moin :)
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08:03<juanjo>hello
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08:11<juanjo>peter1138: is there any way to see how you deal with multidocks? i would like to see how you manage certain details i never could get through.
08:11<@peter1138>hmm, which details?
08:14<juanjo>opf was the worse one. oil rigs were also troublesome for my implementation.
08:14<@peter1138>i didn't bother for opf
08:14<@peter1138>it just targets the first dock built
08:16<juanjo>do ships select an empty dock?
08:16<@peter1138>i have not implemented that
08:16<@peter1138>they just go to the nearest
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08:19<juanjo>so when they look for next destination, they choose the dock that is nearest, do they?
08:20<@peter1138>nope, they go the area the docks cover and find the docks from there
08:20<@peter1138>to be honest it's a bit magical for me :p#
08:20<@peter1138>i remember road vehicles used to pick a specific slot and then go to it, but that got changed at some point
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08:24<juanjo>so, you don't need to store a pool for docks. nice
08:24<frosch123>rv still pick and reserve a specific stop
08:25<frosch123>the sum of the length of rv having an reservation affects the pathfinder cost, so rv can balance between the stops
08:25<frosch123>though i guess they only reserve when they are somewhat nearby
08:27<juanjo>i'll have to check road vehicles then :-)
08:32<juanjo>bye!
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08:50<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r24924 trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp (2013-01-20 13:50:10 UTC)
08:50<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24923): Make sure that autoslope on steep coast tiles cannot not leave invalid canals
08:50<Wolf01>cannot not?
08:51<@planetmaker>meh :D
08:51<@planetmaker>moar tea needed
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09:00<@peter1138>frosch123, afaik they don't reserve
09:00<@peter1138>frosch123, if a spot is marked as occupied the pathfinder will prefer a different spot
09:01<andythenorth>diagonal tunnels anyone? :P
09:01<andythenorth>for making tubes :P
09:01<@peter1138>the original version of the current version did reserve, but iirc led to some awkward situations
09:01<@peter1138>they reserved 16 tiles in advance
09:01<@peter1138>which is far for rvs
09:01*FLHerne would love diagonal bridges and tunnels
09:02<frosch123>ah, yeah, maybe it only considers vehicles already stopeed
09:02<FLHerne>Presumably fancier bridgeheads/entrances (at least allowing diagonal track) would be needed for that?
09:03<@peter1138>there was an original-original version that was different again but you'd have to go back some revisions to find that
09:04<@peter1138>i could make multistop docks occupy slots
09:04<@peter1138>but it's rv-centric atm
09:05<@peter1138>was thinking of renaming RoadStop to MultiStop, heh
09:05<@peter1138>or... VehicleStop? who knows
09:05<@peter1138>cos they're off-map it would be possible to reference the fabled state machine in there too :p
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09:36<andythenorth>I would like to subscribe to your VehicleStop newsletter please
09:36<andythenorth>hrm
09:36<andythenorth>anyone ever played FIRS?
09:39<NGC3982>wat.
09:39<NGC3982>:D
09:42<andythenorth>considering reducing the amount of supplies needed to boost farms
09:43<NGC3982>Not that i know how that works, but i have observed that farm production doesnt increase with farm supplies, like mineral industries increases production with eng.supplies.
09:44<NGC3982>Or is that just something in my head?
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09:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24925 /trunk/src (genworld_gui.cpp lang/english.txt) (2013-01-20 14:51:50 UTC)
09:51<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5395]: Add a tooltip to the mapsize selection mentioning possible deviations.
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10:00<andythenorth>in your head
10:01<Pikka>new(road)port(types)
10:02<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24926 trunk/src/stdafx.h (2013-01-20 15:02:28 UTC)
10:02<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5373]: Check integer min/max macros individually, and define them if missing.
10:03<NGC3982>andythenorth: So, that notion is false?
10:06<@peter1138>andythenorth's losing!
10:08<__ln__>what's going on here: http://goo.gl/maps/lIzma
10:09<__ln__>and here especially: http://goo.gl/maps/rOPHZ
10:11<andythenorth>peter1138: baby minding here :(
10:11<andythenorth>can't play :P
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10:15<@peter1138>naughty fishing harbour
10:15<@peter1138>extends past the tile edge :S
10:15<andythenorth>yes
10:15<andythenorth>I should fix that :P
10:15<andythenorth>flickers
10:16<NGC3982>..?
10:16<NGC3982>Why did i even try.
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10:29<andythenorth>maybe the FIRS boost is a bit volative
10:29<andythenorth>volatile /s
10:30<@Alberth>tolavive :)
10:31<andythenorth>benefit of current method: simple
10:31<andythenorth>disadvantage: production collapses easily if a vehicle jam happens
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10:34<@peter1138>bah, renaming roadstops is way too much work :p
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10:38<andythenorth>get NGC3982 to do it
10:40<@peter1138>plus they're saved with the chunk tag of "ROAD" :p
10:40<andythenorth>it's all hopeless :P
10:40<@peter1138>heh
10:41<andythenorth>there's nothing left to do but
10:41<andythenorth>Jump
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10:41<andythenorth>can't you see what I mean?
10:41<@peter1138>go ahead
10:41<andythenorth>might as well jump
10:41<@peter1138>jump
10:41<@peter1138>do de do do de
10:41<@peter1138>do de do do dum
10:43<andythenorth>nobody answered my FIRS question
10:43<andythenorth>nobody cares :(
10:45<V453000>is there any way how to make one vehicle introduce another?
10:45<V453000>Like, I have wagons which fit to a vehicle, is it possible to unify their introduction date?
10:45<V453000>because if I set the same value the game still randomizes it in the span of 2 years or whatnot
10:47<@peter1138>no
10:47<V453000>thought so, thanks
10:58<Pokka>there was some talk at one point of a flag to not randomise the vehicle's intro date
10:59<Pokka>for this purpose
10:59<@planetmaker>rather like a flag "introduction same as ID XY"
11:00<andythenorth>intro date pool
11:00<V453000>would make some sense to have that I think, though not massively necessary, in my case I just have wagons arrive 2 years earlier. Does not hurt and when you see the vehicle being introduced in the news you know you can use it, so no harm anywhere
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11:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r24927 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2013-01-20 16:17:24 UTC)
11:17<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup [FS#5440]: No need to check a positive value to be larger than 0
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11:28<Hyperion>Good evening
11:29<frosch123>moin
11:31<Hyperion>question from a beginner. How do I know whether I have too many vehicles picking up from a resource?
11:31<Hyperion>I mean, is there an optimal way to do it?
11:32<andythenorth>is there a big queue?
11:32<andythenorth>big queue => too many
11:32<@planetmaker>Hyperion, there's too many when the entrance is jammed and vehicles wait on an empty station to pickup cargo
11:34<Hyperion>What if I have 2 trucks in a loading bay, one is creeping up from 50% and the other is waiting at 0%
11:34<andythenorth>sounds ok
11:35<Hyperion>ok, how about the idea of supply/demand - if I have one vehicle making trips and easily filling 100% and always a stockpile at the resource, is this worse than having the situation i just mentioned?
11:35<Hyperion>in terms of the production increasing over time
11:35<andythenorth>get more vehicles in that case
11:35<@planetmaker>one vehicle loading, the other already waiting to start loading is best in terms of increasing production on primary industries
11:37<Hyperion>thanks guys. is the spacing between vehicles important, then?
11:38<Hyperion>in terms of where they are on the route relative to eachother
11:38<@planetmaker>no. It only matters that you always load cargo
11:38<Hyperion>right. so the resource should always be in the vehicles debt, not the reverse?
11:39<andythenorth>yes
11:39<Hyperion>ok. i was worried about wasting resources by having vehicles waiting at 0%, but that seems ok
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11:39<Hyperion>i mean, wasting money
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>if you have not enough money, you're probably doing something wrong :)
11:40<@planetmaker>Hyperion, "ok" is also a very relative thing :-) Depends on your goal. You might make more money, if you do not fulfill the goal to "always load" by a thin margin
11:41<@planetmaker>But long-term you get higher output by always fulfilling the condition to load continuously
11:41<@planetmaker>so the time horizon matters
11:41<@planetmaker>also the amount of micro-management you want to put in:
11:42<@planetmaker>like buy 4 vehicles for that station. Initially it will be crowded and unneeded. But it means it takes some time before you have to come back and add more vehicles
11:42<@planetmaker>Time which you could better spend on improving your company elsewhere
11:42<@peter1138>hmm
11:42<@peter1138>is that what i'm meant to be doing?
11:42<@planetmaker>As time to build is the limiting factor at a default game after ~10 ingame years worth of playing
11:42<@peter1138>i just end up watching trains moving along tracks :p
11:43<@planetmaker>haha :-)
11:43<Pokka>choo choo
11:43<Hyperion>will primary resource production move up naturally or does it depend on this situation of "always load" ?
11:43<Pokka>that's why you're losing, peter1138
11:43<@planetmaker>Hyperion, it depends on the station rating...
11:44<Hyperion>the % transported stat?
11:44<@peter1138>=yeh
11:44<@peter1138>Pokka, it's your fault
11:44<Pokka>is it
11:44<+michi_cc>peter1138: That's the reason I want a daylength path for. How are you supposed to watch your nice vehicles if there's a new one all the time :p
11:44<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics @ Hyperion
11:45<@peter1138>exactly!
11:45<@peter1138>yadp!
11:45<andythenorth>peter1138: you losing? o_O
11:45<Hyperion>thanks planetmaker
11:45<@peter1138>probably
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: +1 :p
11:45<Pokka>FLHerne is losing
11:45<@peter1138>actually yacd first ;)
11:45<Pokka>peter is second loser
11:45<@peter1138>pikka and andy are joint third losers
11:46<andythenorth>bah
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>"2nd is just the first loser"?
11:46<@peter1138>heh
11:46<@peter1138>actually andy's got the most money
11:46<andythenorth>I got bored of the silly FIRS production
11:46<@peter1138>but pikka's gonna catch him
11:46<andythenorth>silly FIRS
11:46<andythenorth>is my Toob not printing money?
11:46<@peter1138>toyland next time!
11:46<Pokka>oh
11:47<Pokka>andy has zellepins
11:47<Pokka>no wonder he's winning
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but no opengfx allowed :p
11:47<Pokka>supply zellepins
11:47<@peter1138>who uses opengfx anyway?
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11:47<Pokka>no-one
11:48<Pokka>which is why it's odd you leave the track building tools for finescale tracks on openttd graphics ;)
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: all the newbies that don't know any better
11:48<Pokka>parameters are a pain
11:48<@peter1138>hmm
11:48<@peter1138>never noticed
11:48<@peter1138>you should label it opengfx not openttd
11:49<@peter1138>and make a new release just for that!
11:49<Hyperion>whats wrong with opengfx?
11:49<@planetmaker>nothing at all
11:49<andythenorth>my zeps are simply Super!
11:49<Pokka>zuperdooper
11:49<Pokka>they even make a profit
11:51<Pokka>look at this filthy brarnpool to confingford railway
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11:51<Pokka>shamefur dispray
11:51<me>anyone online
11:51<@planetmaker>@seen anyone
11:51<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: anyone was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 2 weeks, 2 days, 0 hours, 24 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <anyone> hi
11:51<@planetmaker>nope
11:52<@peter1138>brarnpool?
11:53<@peter1138>oh great brarnpool
11:53<@peter1138>hmm
11:55<me>ok well i need info what did they use to develop TTD
11:55<Pokka>a fork and a bag of string
11:55<@planetmaker>time, patience and many electrons
11:56<me>seriously
11:56<@peter1138>a text editor was probably involved
11:56<@planetmaker>seriously
11:56<Pokka>the money and experience from porting Frontier: Elite II to the PC?
11:57<me>do you guy know how games are made
11:57<@Alberth>by designing them, and for computer games, followed by implementing them in a computer language
11:58<@planetmaker>me, you really want to consider your questions... a question like "how do you write a computer game" simply can't be answered...
11:58-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc7d7a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:58<@Alberth>me: You may want to read http://content.gpwiki.org/index.php/Main_Page a bit
11:59<@planetmaker>... except by more or less lengthy articles
11:59<@Alberth>s/or less // :)
11:59<@planetmaker>:-)
12:00<@planetmaker>http://www.gpwiki.org/iotd/ nice, Alberth :-)
12:00<@Alberth>yeah, isn't it? :D
12:01<me>Alberth nope first get a 3d modeler and the start programming in C++ make a game engine and more. im not DUm i am a game designer myself i thourt you may kome what TTd was made with becuse it's the same UI and land as roller coaster tycoon 2
12:01<@Alberth>planetmaker: http://youtu.be/jPNVrK7zxd8 for some moving pictures :)
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12:02<@peter1138>3d modeler eh
12:02<@planetmaker>hahaha :-)
12:02<@Alberth>me: right, that's a far more specific question
12:02<Pokka>getting a 3d modeler is definitely the first stage in making a game...
12:02<@Alberth>me: 3d modelers didn't exist at the time TTD was created
12:02<@planetmaker>yes. a game. But we're playing THE game here ;-)
12:02<@peter1138>Alberth, bet they did :p
12:02<andythenorth>isn't there a wiki page about how OpenTTD was reverse engineered?
12:02<andythenorth>maybe even a wikipedia page
12:03<@peter1138>andythenorth, not even the question
12:03<andythenorth>I am taking him at face value :P
12:03<andythenorth>oh no
12:03<andythenorth>I see the point
12:03<@peter1138>ttd and rct were hand written assembly
12:03<@Alberth>me: Roller Coaster 2 is the TTD engine, 2 generations later
12:04<@peter1138>it was made ... by coding assembly instructions o_O
12:04<me>andythenorth thats what im looking for. Alberth i got that one any idea of what it's called
12:04<@peter1138>it's called ttd
12:05<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Tycoon
12:05<andythenorth>has background, not much detail
12:05<Ammler>oh, rct has map rotation :-o
12:05<andythenorth>Pikka: you haz a plane?
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12:06<@planetmaker>yes, seems like Ammler :-)
12:06<Pokka>two
12:06<@Alberth>Ammler: yep, new engine feature in RCT (and quite needed imho)
12:06<@peter1138>heh
12:07<@peter1138>anyone tried map rotation in ottd?
12:07<@peter1138>obviously ignoring the sprite issues
12:07<@planetmaker>with sprites all new, you can do that. As long as people here are like "TTD" it won't happen
12:07<Ammler>planetmaker: you don't need that many new sprites, do you?
12:07<@peter1138>Ammler, loads
12:07<Pokka>if not more
12:07<@planetmaker>depends. Not that many. Of the order of 1k ... 2k
12:08<@planetmaker>no new road/rail/bridge/landscape/vehicle sprites needed
12:08<Ammler>many things you can rotate already
12:08<@planetmaker>only houses + industries
12:08<Ammler>only non square houses
12:08<@planetmaker>well. All houses. Would look funky otherwise
12:08<Ammler>many industries are also made with square support
12:09<Ammler>you don't need to rotate a square house
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12:09<frosch123>planetmaker: depends whether you ignore light direction for landscape :p
12:09<@planetmaker>But most of base sets are landscape, vehicles + gui
12:09<@planetmaker>:-) yes, I do, frosch123
12:09<@Alberth>throw in some zbase render time? :p
12:09<@peter1138>no comment
12:10<@peter1138>planetmaker, anyway, i said ignoring the sprites
12:10<@Alberth>not sure whether it actually works, maybe Z didn't completely model all sides
12:10<@peter1138>planetmaker, i.e. actually done code changes to rotate it all
12:10<@planetmaker>that's a pointless pre-condition peter1138
12:11<Ammler>but not reason not to try
12:11<Ammler>a*
12:11<me>i see but also if you look at simcity 2000 and te sims 1 and simcity 3000 te terrain was te same
12:12<@peter1138>no it's not
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12:23<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24928 trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqcompiler.cpp (2013-01-20 17:23:08 UTC)
12:23<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5408]: [Squirrel] Update line information before processing 'while' token of 'do'-'while' statement.
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12:51<andythenorth>hmm
12:51*andythenorth is boondoggled
12:51<andythenorth>by FIRS supplies still
12:52<andythenorth>production is 1x, 2x (boost), 4x (extra boost)
12:52<andythenorth>at primaries
12:53<andythenorth>this leads to wild fluctuations in available cargo
12:53<andythenorth>which is useful in a cargo-goal challenge
12:53<andythenorth>but not otherwise
12:53<@planetmaker>depends on the integration time really
12:53<andythenorth>if you want a nice steady game, the 2x then 4x boost is a PITA
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: mimic the behaviour of smooth economy :)
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12:54<andythenorth>it's very hard to tune
12:54<andythenorth>the needs of a collaborative MP game with 7 year cargo goal
12:54<andythenorth>are very different
12:54<@planetmaker>like 10% increases and 10% decreases
12:54<andythenorth>to playing SP for 100 years
12:55<@planetmaker>so not 3 levels but... 10. With like every level requiring 3 supplies more or so
12:55<andythenorth>the easy way is a parameter
12:55<andythenorth>but that's Yet Another Fricking Parameter To Forget
12:55<andythenorth>when setting up an MP game
12:55<@planetmaker>not as parameter. As change to existing
12:56<@planetmaker>i.e. make levels not *2 but +10 or so
12:56<@planetmaker>in production
12:56<@planetmaker>and needed supplies not *2 but +5. Or whatever
12:56<andythenorth>biab
12:56<andythenorth>bath time ;)
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12:56<@planetmaker>:-)
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13:16<@peter1138>hmm
13:23<oskari89>Oh why there's no sorting of different types of locomotives and other rolling stock stuff in the rail vehicle replacement window?
13:24<oskari89>I would like to arrange them by speed but can't
13:24<oskari89>Those seem to be arranged by vehicle ID's
13:24<@planetmaker>unless the sorting is re-arranged by the NewGRF(s) :-)
13:24<@peter1138>write a patch :p
13:25<@peter1138>planetmaker, internal detail ;)
13:25<frosch123>i am quite sure that item is on the todo list :p
13:25<Wolf01>I must go, bye
13:25<@peter1138>i think i saw it too
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13:26<@planetmaker>bye, wolf...
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: it shouldn't be too hard to copy the behaviour of the purchase window
13:29<frosch123>"it shouldn't be too hard"... can we ban this sentence?
13:30<@Alberth>ask the bot that kicks !commands :p
13:31<@peter1138>"i'm not a programmer but this shouldn't be too hard"
13:32<frosch123>yeah, just rotate the sprite
13:32<frosch123>every graphics program can rotate sprites in 90° steps
13:33<@peter1138>:D
13:34<Zuu>Can't we just rotate the view 90 degreen as most graphics cards have a setting (to use when showing on a vertical monitor)
13:34<Zuu>Then we can put a check for "can rotate the view" and everyone will be happy that we have "rotatable view" in the feature list?
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13:43<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24929 trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp (2013-01-20 18:43:49 UTC)
13:43<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5415]: Don't try to pause or unpause crashed scripts.
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24930 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2013-01-20 18:45:34 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:45<@DorpsGek>french - 2 changes by glx
13:45<@DorpsGek>german - 3 changes by planetmaker
13:45<@DorpsGek>irish - 11 changes by ioo5
13:45<@DorpsGek>brazilian_portuguese - 110 changes by Tucalipe
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
13:47<frosch123>he, translators managed to get below 30k missing strings!
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13:48<@planetmaker>nice. The call for translators really seems to work. We're still getting a somewhat steady stream of people who apply as new translators
13:49<oskari89>:)
13:49<frosch123>i remember somewhat like a year ago, when i asked whether translators would first reach 25k or ottd would first reach r25k... but rb laughed me off like we would never reach r25 so fast :p
13:49<oskari89>Someone could update that on the front page, which are already done, remove them completely from list
13:50<@planetmaker>well... I don't see hitting < 25k strings (if that was the direction the statement was intended)
13:51<frosch123>yes, it was. translators slowed down just like the commits
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13:52<@planetmaker>oskari89, the front page is up to date
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13:56<@planetmaker>but we got in the last 7 days new translators for Urdu, Esperanto, Turkish, Irish, Hebrew, Simplified Chinese... half of those languages need a translator urgently
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13:58<frosch123>well, if ottd would be as popular in asia as in europe, it would be no issue at all to find an urdu translator :p
13:58<@planetmaker>:-)
13:59<@planetmaker>I should bully my Pakistan collegue to translate ;-)
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14:00<joey8>can anyone tell me why when i buy a plane with a high percentage reliability crashes within one flight
14:01<@planetmaker>crashes are not related to reliability. But happen any case with low chance. Or high chance, if the aircraft is large and the airport small
14:01<Zuu>reliability have nothing to do with the chance of crashes
14:01<@planetmaker>All on the condition that aircraft crashes are not switched off in the adv. settings
14:02<joey8>planetmaker➤ Oh ok thanx mate
14:02<Zuu>reliability only affect the chance of the aircraft to "break down" in the air. A broken down aircraft will emit smoke and fly slower than usual but not crash.
14:03<joey8>Zuu➤ oh ok thank you
14:03<joey8>i am very unlucky - they keep crashing
14:03<@planetmaker>large planes on small airport... :-)
14:03<joey8>planetmaker➤ ok thanx i will build a bigger airport
14:04<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Plane
14:04<joey8>
14:04<Zuu>Isn't the chance 1 in 5 or something like that for large planes or small airport. (with original chances)
14:04<@planetmaker>lists small and big planes
14:04<@planetmaker>yes, I think so, Zuu
14:05<Zuu>The other probability with a large enough airport for the plane is something like 1 in 30. IIRC
14:05<@planetmaker>hm... the UI doesn't tell whether an aircraft is large or small?
14:06<Zuu>No, only with certain plane sets
14:06<@planetmaker>bad :-)
14:06<Zuu>Eg. av8 have some GUI element that show this.
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14:06<@planetmaker>yes. as newgrf extra string. Thus you have to go a cetrain way as author to supply it.
14:06<Zuu>For default aircraft, you will need to set a custom company colour for small or large aircraft to see which ones that are large/small in the buy menu.
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14:07<Zuu>Or you are an AI, and use the available API method. :-)
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14:09<@planetmaker>:D
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14:30<Rubidium>frosch123: so quickly dump something big into trunk so we are getting way about 30k again?
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14:33<@peter1138>newmaparray!
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14:35<frosch123>new(maparray) or (newmap)array?
14:36<Supercheese>Yes.
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14:39<andythenorth>Pikka: game on?
14:39<andythenorth>1937 already :o
14:40<andythenorth>peter1138: FLHerne ^^
14:40<@peter1138>wur
14:40<FLHerne>Ploing!
14:41<FLHerne>Is there a question?
14:41<andythenorth>herm
14:41<andythenorth>conditional orders
14:42<andythenorth>do people actually do that ?
14:42<@planetmaker>sure
14:42<FLHerne>andythenorth: Muchly. Handy with autorefit
14:43<FLHerne>Not yet in this game though
14:49<@peter1138>no, it's not used
14:59<@planetmaker>you should like open your own server channel...
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. because we very much hate it when people talk about playing the game in here
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15:16<Rubidium>yeah, we should talk about colobot again ;)
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15:26<@peter1138>hmm
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16:50<andythenorth>peter1138: end of game?
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16:50<@peter1138>for now for me
16:50<@peter1138>carry on if you wish
16:50<andythenorth>+1
16:50<andythenorth>bed
16:50<andythenorth>worky worky tomorrow
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17:46<__ln__>why isn't there a translation in occitan?
17:48<Supercheese>arctan only goes from -π/2 to π/2... oh wait-
17:48<Supercheese>:P
17:49<__ln__>no, no, other kind of tan
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18:50<@Terkhen>good night
18:54<@planetmaker>night
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19:03<Eddi|zuHause>anybody have a clue what this guy is talking about? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=64076&view=unread#unread
19:03<Supercheese>Hmm
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19:04<__ln__>he's got a big nose
19:05<Supercheese>Perhaps he means an enumeration of named constants like http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/nml/global_constants.py
19:05<Supercheese>I've posted as much
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19:08<Eddi|zuHause>i've read it three times, and still no luck...
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19:14<__ln__>the first and second paragraph make sense, although he a verb in the first one.
19:15<__ln__>but the third.. no.
19:16<Supercheese>Well, I've posted my conjecture...
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19:35<__ln__>@seen orudge
19:35<@DorpsGek>__ln__: orudge was last seen in #openttd 23 weeks, 3 days, 11 hours, 36 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <orudge> it's something like a euro per extra TB though
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>wait, we could have extra TBs? why do we only have one of those, then? :p
19:44<__ln__>they would probably constantly kick eachother from the channel if there were more
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i guess you're right, it would probably not be helpful at all ;)
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22:20<Sacro>why can \i not hear my steam trains in 1.2.3
22:20<Sacro>:( i am le sad
22:20<Supercheese>Hear as in no whistles when they start moving?
22:20<Supercheese>Not hear*
22:22<Supercheese>Sound effect potential problems: check if you are using the proper Base SFX set in the options menu
22:22<Supercheese>check if OTTD has somehow been muted by the volume mixer
22:22<Supercheese>check if OTTD's volume mixer has muted sounds
22:23<Supercheese>Operating System-level mixer versus internal mixer, to be clear
22:23<Sacro>Supercheese: yes
22:23<Sacro>base sfx?
22:23<Supercheese>Main Menu --> Game Options
22:23<Sacro>original_windows
22:24<Supercheese>if you switch to OpenSFX do the sounds work?
22:24<Sacro>hmm, but i might be missing sample.cat
22:25<Sacro>nope
22:25<Sacro>still nothing
22:25<Sacro>i can hear the normal ttd sounds
22:25<Supercheese>just train whistles are gone?
22:25<Supercheese>weird
22:26<Supercheese>1.2.3 shouldn't have the new sound effect advanced settings
22:27<Sacro>oh, could it be that ukrs is too new?
22:27<Supercheese>Oh, you've UKRS
22:27<Supercheese>There's a parameter in UKRS that disables sounds, check to make sure that's not killing sounds
22:28<Supercheese>Newgrf settings -> UKRS -> Set parameters
22:28<Sacro>multiplayer
22:28<Sacro>but they aren't disabled
22:30<Supercheese>I think that's about the limit of my "remote debug" abilities... :S
22:31<Supercheese>UKRS has custom sounds, well UKRS2 anyway
22:31<Supercheese>if everything else works except vehicle running sounds, I would suspect the grf parameter
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22:41<Sacro>LOOKS FINE
22:41<Sacro>strange
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23:11<Supercheese>Whooooooah, nmlc tells you the line numbers for error messages relative to #includes?
23:13<Supercheese>that is amazing
---Logclosed Mon Jan 21 00:00:11 2013