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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-22

---Logopened Tue Jan 22 00:00:12 2013
00:04<Supercheese>heehee, steam-powered airship
00:12<Supercheese>I just ported this to OTTD: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=15873
00:20<Flygon>Man
00:20<Flygon>Now we're seriously gonna get dem steampunk GRFs, from 1AD to 2000AD @_@
00:21<Flygon>Damn Greeks, making Bronze turbines
00:21<Flygon>And away I go, to maintain horses!
00:21<Supercheese>Civfanatics is a treasure trove of resources
00:21<Supercheese>I dunno how some of those guys do it, "Here, I modeled a unit with 4 differnet 16-frame animations, in all 8 isometric/dimetric views. Here you go!"
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01:18<Flygon>Supercheese: We require a Steampunk game overhaul :D
01:18<Flygon>From 1AD to 2000AD
01:18<Flygon>May need a daylength patch :p
01:18<Flygon>Then again, alternate history...
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01:42<Supercheese>Oh definitely
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02:36<Supercheese>So many grf ideas, so little time
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03:10<@planetmaker>moin
03:10<Supercheese>Salve, amice
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03:14<andythenorth>bonjour
03:14<andythenorth>Pikka lo
03:14<Pikka>does it
03:14<andythenorth>apparently
03:14<Supercheese>if you want it to, it shall
03:15<andythenorth>hrm
03:15<andythenorth>Pikka been in the game?
03:16<Pikka>not lately
03:17<andythenorth>Flherne is winningest :P
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03:18<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: that was: "if you build it, he will come"
03:18<Supercheese>As... you...wiiiiiish...
03:20<Pikka>ok bye
03:21<andythenorth>bye
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03:34<@peter1138>herp
03:35<@peter1138>Supercheese, what, you mean they actually produced work instead of spending all their time infighting over who drew crap?
03:35<Supercheese>Alls I know is that they do, in fact, have grfs available for download
03:39<Supercheese>Ugh, why did I ever start coding grfs with all my nml in the same file... now I have to separate and #include yet again
03:39<Supercheese>s'like the 4th grf I've had to go back and change that
03:42<@peter1138>heh
03:43<Eddi|zuHause>who produced what where?
03:44<Supercheese>Simuscape
03:44<Supercheese>et al.
03:44<@peter1138>Supercheese, what, no, i was talking about the civ stuff
03:44<Supercheese>oh
03:44<Supercheese>right
03:44<Eddi|zuHause>civ? i'm lost
03:45<Supercheese>http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=cat&id=23
03:45<@peter1138>05:12 < Supercheese> I just ported this to OTTD: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=15873
03:45<Supercheese>and that
03:46<Supercheese>Some talented modelers have made dozens of units/vehicles for Civilization 3
03:47<Eddi|zuHause>i never played that game, actually
03:53<Supercheese>converting the civ3 palette to OTTD palette is a pain in the ass, I need to figure out a way to automate it
03:53<Supercheese>civ3 has tricky magic-pink-transparency-blend in the palette
04:00<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.flickr.com/photos/thanoz/4318021617//in/photostream/
04:02<Supercheese>Wait, my random switches are re-randomizing when the vehicle is serviced :S
04:02<Supercheese>I thought if I didn't specify any triggers it would never re-randomize
04:05<V453000>:D
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04:07<Supercheese>Blarg, how do I stop re-randomization
04:08<@peter1138>you have a trigger set somewhere
04:09<V453000>Supercheese: that is strange, my trains dont do that
04:09<V453000>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2065/ this for sure doesnt re-randomize upon servicing
04:09<V453000>the "return" arent necessary
04:10<V453000>ah yeah
04:10<Supercheese>Hmmm
04:10<V453000>you probably have a trigger there
04:10<V453000>got something liek random_trigger: anywhere?
04:10<Supercheese>Oh blarg yes, this is old code, forgot I had that
04:10<Supercheese>thanks
04:11<@peter1138>lots of spritesets for different colours, or are you use CC recolours?
04:11<Supercheese>two random livery variants atm
04:12<V453000>I use sprites peter
04:12<V453000>I often edit each colour individually so recolours would probably not quite cut it :)
04:19<Supercheese>Fixed \o/
04:22<@peter1138>\o/
04:27-!-Celestar_ is now known as Celestar
04:27<Celestar>gday
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04:32<@peter1138>hello!
04:36<Supercheese>Sleep time, 'night all
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04:54<@peter1138>hmm, kinda tired
04:54<@peter1138>probably should have had more than 3 hours sleep
05:02<V453000>that helps indeed :) less coding mode zzz
05:13<__ln__>http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14415881/how-to-pair-socks-from-a-pile-efficiently
05:18<@peter1138>what's the order of vehicle views in a spriteset?
05:18<@peter1138>clockwise, isn't it? starting at...?
05:19<V453000>starting at upward
05:19<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3936 example
05:20<@peter1138>thanks
05:21<V453000>yw
05:22<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2065/ <-- @ V453000 better keep the return. It's more consistent and might be changed to be needed in NML 0.4 :-)
05:23<V453000>oh :D right I dont have them mostly anymore ... will just add them when needed :)
05:24<@planetmaker>it will at least trigger warnings for some time. It won't be a "now it doesn't work anymore" decision. So yes, you're safe whatever way you choose now
05:28<@planetmaker>generally: think of it the way, that you use return when you return the final value (or spriteset) and just the identifier name when chaining
05:28<@planetmaker>but if you ask me... I'm not consequent there either. So far at least :-)
05:47-!-Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit []
05:56<V453000>:P
06:03<@peter1138>urgh
06:04<@peter1138>getting sprite sizes without using the sprite cache is sloooooow
06:07<@peter1138>getting sprite sizes with using the sprite cache is sloooooow
06:07<@peter1138>fills the cache somewhat
06:11<V453000>:D
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06:37<@peter1138>Evaluated 113218 sprites
06:37<@peter1138>that's... a lot
06:40<@peter1138>Evaluated 6813390 sprites
06:40<@peter1138>that's even more :S
07:00<@peter1138>sprite glitches everywhere!
07:13<@peter1138>Lookups 0
07:13<@peter1138>Lookups 65
07:13<@peter1138>Lookups 62
07:13<@peter1138>Lookups 0
07:13<@peter1138>Lookups 0
07:13<@peter1138>^patched version
07:13<@peter1138>Lookups 77998
07:13<@peter1138>Lookups 79134
07:13<@peter1138>Lookups 79794
07:13<@peter1138>Lookups 79920
07:13<@peter1138>^trunk
07:13<@peter1138>[A[A[A[ALookups 14179
07:13<@peter1138>Lookups 14958
07:13<@peter1138>Lookups 16650
07:13<@peter1138>Lookups 16604
07:14<@peter1138>^patched version zoomed out
07:14<@peter1138>(zoom level doesn't affect trunk)
07:17<@peter1138>FF is a bit faster
07:22<NGC3982>What on earth is going on here.
07:22<@peter1138>spam :D
07:22<NGC3982>:)
07:22<NGC3982>I just realized i forgot to group 2000 vehicles.
07:23<@peter1138>fun :0
07:23<NGC3982>At the moment, i would enjoy a new version with an added "Put all ungrouped vehicles in.." *drag to group*.
07:27<@peter1138>if (_ctrl_pressed) move all vehicles in list to group
07:27<@peter1138>maybe not
07:27<@peter1138>hmm, slightly more viewport draws
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>just selecting multiple vehicles might help
07:28<@peter1138>Lookups 5311, draws 1102
07:28<@peter1138>Lookups 5261, draws 1141
07:28<@peter1138>Lookups 5202, draws 1073
07:28<@peter1138>Lookups 5117, draws 1030
07:28<@peter1138>Lookups 4777, draws 959
07:28<@peter1138>Lookups 84368, draws 968
07:28<@peter1138>Lookups 82523, draws 871
07:28<@peter1138>Lookups 82809, draws 896
07:28<@peter1138>Lookups 82174, draws 803
07:28<@peter1138>Lookups 81810, draws 773
07:28<@peter1138>i wonder which is faster :p
07:29<@peter1138>lookups == evaluating newgrf act3/2/1 chains
07:30<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, indeed.
07:30<NGC3982>Seriosly, the poop pot is boiling in Sweden today
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>*must*stop*image*in*head*
07:31<NGC3982>We have for many years used a very unfair system for paying up for social service
07:32<NGC3982>Swedes are forced to pay (a fair amount of) money, if they own a television. Even if they never use it to watch public service channels (wich the money is for).
07:32<NGC3982>It's unfair and shit, and i have been seriosly working to make it go away.
07:32<@peter1138>same here
07:32<NGC3982>Today, they announced that everyone with a computer can watch svtplay.se, and therefor - should play the fee.
07:33<@peter1138>haha
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: welcome to germany 10 years ago :p
07:33<@planetmaker>NGC3982: welcome. We know that here as well...
07:33<NGC3982>Hey, let's lie about not owning a computer so that i don't have to buy a service i do not want to use.
07:33<NGC3982>Fuck off.
07:33<@planetmaker>and tbh... *if* you want everyone to finance it, it's the logical consequence
07:33<NGC3982>Regards, Sweden.
07:34<NGC3982>Sorry for the foul language. :(
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: we have meanwhile passed this stage, and just charge every house, irrespective of whether they own a TV, computer, radio or nothing
07:34<@planetmaker>unless you want to finance it via taxes. Which would be fairer
07:34<NGC3982>Though, the thing is: I support paying for public service. I like public service! But i will -never- be turned up the ass like that.
07:34<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: And that's at least fair.
07:34<@planetmaker>a flat tax irrespective of household income is... injust
07:34<@peter1138>switzerland, norway, denmark and austria all have high rates than sweden :p
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's deliberately not financed via taxes, as that could mean (even more) unfair influence on the content by the government
07:35<@peter1138>*higher
07:35<@planetmaker>I can't imagine how that would make it worse, Eddi|zuHause
07:35<NGC3982>planetmaker: having everyone paying the same fee is at least a taxation. The current law system is unfair and stupid.
07:35<NGC3982>Though
07:35<Pinkbeast>We have a TV license (and I have a vast collection of nastygrams) but as long as the government ultimately sets the licence fee I don't see that they have any less influence.
07:35<@planetmaker>NGC3982: it's up to you to suggest something fairer and to lobby for that suggestion
07:35<NGC3982>SVTplay could solve this by simply using a paypal service or something
07:35<NGC3982>But no, let's make it a law instead.
07:36<Pinkbeast>I'd rather it was funded out of general taxation, and right now I don't pay a penny.
07:36<@planetmaker>not sure there is a fairer system than a fee or tax. If you want publicly funded TV and not only TV which follows the intrest of a oligopol
07:37<NGC3982>planetmaker: True. That's why i support taxation. It might be much money for the Swedish people, but it is at least a real law.
07:37<NGC3982>If the currect system was applicated to a commercial instance, it would be illegal and frowned upon.
07:37<NGC3982>It's like i would charge you people money because you never contacted me and said that you didnt want to buy my shit you have never heard of.
07:37<Pinkbeast>That is true of everything the government collects funding for, so I'm not sure you can single out the TV license.
07:38<@planetmaker>NGC3982: yes. So it's currently effectively a flat tax
07:38<@planetmaker>your taxes are also used to support *whatever* even though you don#t use it. why should it be different with TV?
07:38<Pinkbeast>A flat tax that (if it's anything like the UK) is woefully inefficiently collected by virtue of being outside the usual tax collection regime.
07:38<@planetmaker>call it tax or fee or whatever. No big difference really
07:39<@planetmaker>that's of course another issue, Pinkbeast :-)
07:39<@planetmaker>it's the administrative overhead which would need and could go by using simple tax funding
07:40<Pinkbeast>Also there are some fascinating edge cases. I can watch stuff on the BBC iplayer later and I don't need a TV Licence. :-)
07:40<@planetmaker>that's circumvented now in germany: every household pays a flat fee. And that's it.
07:40<@planetmaker>that also then includes usage of the internet pages of public tv.
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: would you rather have a tax based on you having to register every single TV set and the tax calculated on screen diagonal?
07:41<@planetmaker>(from my POV it kinda makes sense. It's the only way I've been using the services for years)
07:41<NGC3982>planetmaker: Yes.
07:41<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: no. I'd just use a tiny part of the income tax to fund TV. No special tax needed
07:41<@planetmaker>or VAT. or whatever
07:41<NGC3982>My point with all this is: A government can't make up stuff from nothing, just so you have to pay them shit. This is not Italy, damnit.
07:41<@planetmaker>it's not like we have a special "usage of hospitatal tax" either
07:42<Pinkbeast>That is precisely how all taxes work so errr
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how that makes any more sense than charging for every household
07:42<NGC3982>And, if you want to fund public service, make the people pay for it. That's fine, if you feel the importance of it. But don't make up magic rules that doesn't apply logically to the people using television.
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: we have a mandatory membership of a health insurance, though
07:42<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: the difference is everybody paying exactly the same amount vs. everybody paying a percentage amount of their income
07:42<@planetmaker>the latter is fairer
07:43<@planetmaker>30€ may be a lot for some, and nothing for others
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and we DID have a "visit a doctor" fee, until a few months ago
07:43<@planetmaker>I know :-)
07:43<@planetmaker>but only once every 3 month. All subsequent in that quarter were free. Kinda
07:46<NGC3982>And, speaking of this. The system they are using to "detect" people with TV is a "#/&"#? mess.
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: still that one made no sense whatsoever
07:46<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/fs4934.diff
07:46<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/fs4934time.diff
07:46<NGC3982>They can charge you (without you having anything to object) if they see a television trough your window.
07:46<NGC3982>And they do
07:46<NGC3982>The did it to me
07:46<@peter1138>^ hacky experimental patch
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: you ring during a football game, and if it sounds "GOAL" out of the living room, they have a TV?
07:46<NGC3982>I used legal process to get myself out of it.
07:47<@peter1138>(along with patch to compare number of calls)
07:47<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: True.
07:47<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: ..According to them.
07:47<NGC3982>They don't have to knock and tell you either, they simply send you an invoice.
07:47<NGC3982>And a legal warning
07:47<NGC3982>Remind you; The people that work with it does -not- have govermental juristiction.
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is the same over here
07:48<NGC3982>I went to the swedish Tingsrätt back in 2009 to get it sorted out
07:48<Pinkbeast>Hm, this is very like the mess in the UK, except that merely seeing a TV through the window does not suffice.
07:48<NGC3982>And of course, it got sorted out.
07:48<Pinkbeast>The detector vans here are almost certainly completely bogus.
07:48<NGC3982>Since people do not go to court with it, they can continue.
07:48<NGC3982>It's Berlusconi poop. That's what it is, dag nabbit.
07:48<NGC3982>planetmaker: "Detector vans"?
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>wrong hilight :)
07:49<Pinkbeast>Just as well since there _is_ a TV visible through my window (and no, I'm not breaking the rules).
07:49<__ln__>Strangely enough, for the past 22 days, we've had our "tv licence" implemented as an additional tax. Which is 0€ if you earn <7000€/year, and scales to max ~140€ for >=20000€/year.
07:50<@planetmaker>it levels off quickly, __ln__
07:50<__ln__>And that's per person (adult person, i think).
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>20k€/year is not that much
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07:51<Pinkbeast>I assume this is the most basic patch to a flat tax to make it not screw the poor too badly.
07:51<__ln__>yeah, it isn't. the upper limit is quite low.
07:51<@planetmaker>yes, it's not... If I'd leave university, I'd ask for more...
07:51<@peter1138>main issue with the UK system is they don't believe that anyone can not have a tv
07:52<NGC3982>peter1138: That goes for us too. Hence, a guy can stand in your window and look at your personal DVD of Game of Thrones and report you as a TV (that is, D/A Reciever) owner, charging you the fee.
07:52<@peter1138>you can watch stuff on bbc iplayer, as long as it's not "live"
07:52<@peter1138>and you actually get guys standing in your window?
07:52<@planetmaker>meanwhile you can watch most stuff in public TV also as live stream
07:53<Pinkbeast>NGC: Except that here they will lose (if you turn up to mag's court and say "no, watching a DVD")
07:53<@planetmaker>in Germany at least
07:53<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: Yes, that is true. How many Swedes will do that?
07:53<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: They deliberatly use a unlawful (and unethic) system to make people pay for stuff they might not even use.
07:53<NGC3982>And that was my case when i took this to court.
07:53<NGC3982>And won.
07:53<Pinkbeast>I would - it's going to cost them vast sums of money for an afternoon's amusement for me.
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>with the further diversification in receiver devices (cellphones, tablets, ...) it made no real sense anymore to distinguish between TVs and computers
07:54<Pinkbeast>Errr again you seem to be objecting in general to how taxation works.
07:54<Pinkbeast>I pay for lots of stuff I don't use, when it comes to tax.
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>so i do think charging every household irrespective of device is the better option
07:54<NGC3982>Me?
07:55<Pinkbeast>Yes.
07:55<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: charging the same amount from every household is unfair.
07:55<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: It's not general taxation. That's why im mad?
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: whatever system you choose. _SOMEONE_ will always think it's unfair
07:55<Pinkbeast>Do you object in general to hypothecated taxes?
07:55<@planetmaker>what's an "hypothecated tax"?
07:56<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: Absolutely not. I support the general flat taxation for public service in Sweden.
07:56<Pinkbeast>One collected for a specific purpose (like the UK TV licence fee)
07:56<@planetmaker>ah, I see
07:57<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: but the same amount for all is too unfair.
07:57<Pinkbeast>NGC: My point is that your objection is incoherent. You don't in general mind "paying for stuff you don't use", in taxation; and you say you don't object to hypothecated taxes.
07:57<Pinkbeast>But you are complaining about what is essentially a hypothecated tax on the grounds that it's paying for stuff you don't use.
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i'm not sure what the new version is, but in the old version you were free if you had _really_ low income, like 250€/month
07:58<@planetmaker>you still can get exemption, Eddi|zuHause
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07:59<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: not here. if you were living alone and your income was 0€/month, you'd still pay the same amount as a household of two people both earning 50k€/year.
08:00<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: Then you have missed my meaning of all this. I have no objection to paying for public service, if it's on fair grounds for everybody. For instance, having everyone to share the bill (for instance, a flat tax). The current system ignores if you can/cannot use public service. If you have a monitor that "looks big", it's suddenly charge-able. When i say "that people don't even use", i'm not talking about people watching TV and don't switch over to t
08:00<Pinkbeast>"The current system ignores if you can/cannot use public service."
08:00<NGC3982>Yes, that is true.
08:00<Pinkbeast>Ah. So I should be exempt from the proportion of tax that pays for child benefit, having been sterilised?
08:01<@planetmaker>:-)
08:01<Pinkbeast>What you seem to be saying is that you do in fact object to hypothecated taxes.
08:01<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: Again, you do not understand. I support making everyone pay for public service, as is written a few lines up.
08:01<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: I do -not- support making some of the people pay, on grounds that does not exist.
08:01<@planetmaker>you should then pay twice, Pinkbeast. As you don't provide people who'll pay your retirement money
08:01<Pinkbeast>But you are contradicting yourself constantly.
08:02<NGC3982>Is this a language thing or what? It's this easy: The current law makes some people pay, regardless of them using TV or not.
08:02<Pinkbeast>A tax that everyone pays "ignores if you can/cannot use public service" - so why is that bad about the current system?
08:02<Pinkbeast>Yes. A tax that everyone pays would make some people pay, regardless etc etc
08:02<@planetmaker>NGC3982, yes. And a tax makes *everyone* pay. Even when they don't use whatever the tax is used for
08:02<@planetmaker>and you said you're not against a flat-tax system...
08:02<NGC3982>Exactly.
08:02<NGC3982>Yes, that is true - again.
08:03<Pinkbeast>So your objections to the current system would also be objections to "everyone pays".
08:03<@planetmaker>but... it is a flat tax system, if everyone pays for TV. Even if they don't have or use it
08:04<NGC3982>planetmaker: Indeed. I repeat: The current system makes some (read: some) people pay for everyones usage of public service. Of these people, many don't even own a television. These people will therefor by law pay for everyone elses television use (and that is why the fee is so high). Thus: The law is faulty and that is why i do not like it.
08:05<NGC3982>If -everyone- (or no-one) paid for it, that would be a more fair system.
08:05<Pinkbeast>If everyone paid for it, many would still not own a television. These people would therefore by law pay for everyone else's television use. Thus: ... ?
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: i'm totally lost on what you're actually against now
08:05<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: Yes, that is true. Though, that would be a real law, based on real taxation rules.
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08:06<@planetmaker>so am I, Eddi|zuHause. I totally don't get your argument, sorry, NGC3982
08:06<NGC3982>The current system is not, and as i said, conjugated by people that is not a part of our coverment.
08:06<Pinkbeast>So in fact you clearly do not object on the stated grounds.
08:06<Pinkbeast>It manifestly is a real law.
08:06<NGC3982>Do i have to paint this?
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08:06<Pinkbeast>But furthermore you're now getting into an entirely fresh objection. This is what I mean by your argument being incoherent.
08:07<Pinkbeast>Indeed, since the overwhelming majority of people do own a TV, funding it out of general taxation would increase the net sums paid by people who don't.
08:08<@planetmaker>yes... but would possibly open the option to just remove the bloated fund-gathering agency which is in use now
08:08<@planetmaker>thus might even be a net gain ;-)
08:08<NGC3982>The net gain of a flat tax for everyone is:
08:08<Pinkbeast>planet: Yes, and "get rid of Capita" would be marvellous here, but that's a different argument.
08:08<NGC3982>1. We can close down the fake agency that works with the bloated non-police-but-police-action work right now.
08:08<NGC3982>and:
08:09<NGC3982>2: Everyone pay for public service. Either everyone, or no-one.
08:09<NGC3982>or:
08:09<NGC3982>3: Make the system pay-per-view. Since the agency announced that SVTplay will be internet only in a few years, that is not that hard to handle.
08:10<Pinkbeast>Marvellous. I agree. But if those are your objectives, don't start by saying "It makes people pay who don't use the service", because that would still be true if you did 1: and 2:!
08:10<Eddi|zuHause><NGC3982> 1. We can close down the fake agency that works with the bloated non-police-but-police-action work right now. <-- except that germany didn't manage to do this when they introduced the flat fee
08:11<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: Yes, i have to excuse the usage of words there. My point was that a law that makes everyone pay for public service, is a better solution than "some" paying, even if they do not use it.
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>now they're not trying to find out anymore who owns a TV, but which people form an actual combined houseold
08:11<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: :(
08:11<Pinkbeast>Well, I agree with that, yes.
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>so they're like going to student homes and ask "do you have sex with each other" (my imagination)
08:12<NGC3982>As with the current system (to sum this circus of arguments all up), i have to -lie- and say that i -dont own a computer-, simply because i never visit SVTplay.se.
08:12<NGC3982>And that falls on its own, really.
08:12<NGC3982>I can make them a pay-per-view service for free, if they want to
08:12<Pinkbeast>Eddi: On the other hand that is something that has to be done for all sorts of reasons (eg distinguishing lodger/cohabitee)...
08:12<NGC3982>And this would be solved.
08:12<NGC3982>..
08:12<Pinkbeast>No, you don't have to lie. Either the law requires you to pay if you have a computer or it doesn't.
08:13<Pinkbeast>For instance I know that the wording here is "a device installed or used for the purpose of receiving television programmes as they are broadcast", or something very like that, and know that (as you might expect) case law says that iplayer counts if it is not timeshifted.
08:15<Pinkbeast>So if (as I do not) I watch TV but never the BBC, I'm not required to lie. I'm required to pay.
08:15<NGC3982>Sure. I do not however, think that having a computer implies having easy access to SVTplay.se
08:16<NGC3982>If the solution easily can be solved with simply having a damn username.
08:18<NGC3982>It's like putting out a fire with a comet
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08:19<Pinkbeast>If the situation is like that in the UK, not at all; you pay for the use of a device that could potentially be used to...
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: like i said, we have had that same discussion in germany several years ago
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: except that computers were not charged the TV fee, but the radio fee
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>which was much lower
08:21<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: Indeed. So, you can code, right? Make a username+password function with Paypal support, and i'll call the government.
08:21<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Ah, you have separated fee's?
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: not anymore
08:21<Pinkbeast>NGC: My point is that that would make no difference at all because obviously with a suitable device it would be trivial to register a username.
08:23<NGC3982>Sure it would. People that don't pay would not be able to take part of it.
08:23<NGC3982>As with Netflix, or Spotify.
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: now they introduced the per-household fee irrespective of device
08:23<NGC3982>(I know, it's not a good idea since nobody would use it).
08:23<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: I see.
08:23<Pinkbeast>But now you're avocating a change to pay-per-view, which is completely separate from the bogus assertion that presently you are required to lie.
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: now the companies complain that have many shops
08:23<Pinkbeast>As far as I can see presently you are lying to avoid the fact that in fact you are required to pay.
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>because they might have a major increase in fees
08:24<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: Yes, of course.
08:24<NGC3982>I'm required to pay, since i own a computer.
08:24<Pinkbeast>So you are not required to lie at all.
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08:25<Pinkbeast>In fact, you're objecting to the fact that it is becoming much more like an "everybody pays" tax!
08:25<+michi_cc>And of course you also get the regular public TV station haters, but then somebody who thinks Mitten im Leben or X-Diaries is quality TV has a completely different problem anyway.
08:25<NGC3982>So, having a system (like Netflix or Spotify) that makes users pay, and the users actually use the service - is not a good thing?
08:26<Pinkbeast>NGC: Again, one objection at a time. We're dealing now with "required to lie", and the fact that you think a flat tax is good but a de facto flat tax is bad.
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>and then there's the local newspapers that don't sell anything anymore and want in on the "public money" themselves
08:27<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: As i have been trying to point out: Having a system where everyone pays, or where the people actually using it pays is a good system. A bad system is where some people that might or might not use the system have to pay for everyone else. What is wrong with that?
08:27<+michi_cc>NGC3982: Not at all, if one of the goals is to provide political education, proper news or cultural programs, i.e. everything that isn't entertainment.
08:28<Pinkbeast>It doesn't make sense in terms of objecting to moving from a system where some people to approaching one where effectively everyone pays because the set of qualifying devices is so large that everyone owns one.
08:28<NGC3982>michi_cc: Yes, that is why i think that we should either use the "everybody pays", or the "the ones that use it pays". Nothing else, right?
08:29<@peter1138>no comments on my fs4934 patch then :p
08:29<NGC3982>peter1138: Haha. Sorry for the OT.
08:30<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: So, having a system where "everybody pays" or "the users that use it pays" is not better then guessing who's using it? :D
08:30<+michi_cc>NGC3982: For those goals, everybody pays is the better way. There are already enough people that think education and culture are optional and they shouldn't be rewarded.
08:30<NGC3982>michi_cc: Sure, let's make that happend then.
08:30<Pinkbeast>NGC: again, you're skipping off the point. You're objecting to a change from a system where some pay to another system where some pay.
08:30<+michi_cc>NGC3982: It has happened in Germany.
08:30<Pinkbeast>That we agree that "everybody pays" would be better is irrelevant to the relative merits of those systems.
08:31<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: Yes, that is true. But in the proposed system the RIGHT people pay.
08:31<Pinkbeast>So don't bring it up when complaining about computers becoming qualifying devices, because it's irrelevant (except inasmuch as, I observe, you are de facto moving to "everybody pays").
08:33<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> no comments on my fs4934 patch then :p <- can you make up your mind whether game-related or not-game-related discussions are bad now? :p
08:33<+michi_cc>peter1138: fs4934 interacts with some other stuff I consider sub-optimal: that the sprite cache is always storing all zoom levels of each sprite. An idea might be to cache/store sprite meta data separately and then only store the used sprite sizes in the sprite cache.
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: "the RIGHT people" are always "the others"...
08:34<@peter1138>not sure that's particularly relevant to the problem though
08:35<@peter1138>hmm, kinda is
08:35<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: The right people might in this case be the people that logon to SVTplay and pay for a service. Though, as michi_cc said, it might not be a good thing (since most people would avoid it).
08:36<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: As said, how they solve it is not my problem, i just want to abolish a unethical system that punishes random citizens with unrelated fee's.
08:36<+michi_cc>peter1138: It's not related to the problem at all :), but related to how to implement a solution.
08:36<NGC3982>and "i" is at the moment a lot of Swedes.
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08:37<NGC3982>People are so pissed right now. The Swedish AMS (where you announce for employees) have stopped announcing for "pejlare" (the people that look for televisions trough windows and poop).
08:37<NGC3982>But yes, i feel that i have used this channel a bit too much for OT today.
08:37<NGC3982>Sorry.
08:39<@peter1138>never mind
08:40<@peter1138>i updated the FS entry instead :p
08:40<NGC3982>:D
08:48<NGC3982>I will have to excuse myself. The last then minutes, the agency put up a clarification note on the website, stating that you do not have to pay the fee, as long as you dont have an explicit TV-tuner in your computer.
08:48<NGC3982>The announcement this morning was a bit hasty, then.
08:48<NGC3982>And so was my anger.
08:49<@peter1138>hah
08:51<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Re: Grouping vehicles. Another thing that would be nice to use is "dragging across multiple windows". For instance, from a station view to a group view: http://i.imgur.com/hGFl5Ry.png
08:56<@peter1138>get coding
08:57<NGC3982>Hehe
08:57<NGC3982>I would just ruin it.
08:57<@peter1138>don't think the window system supports drag&drop between windows currently
08:57<NGC3982>Stuff like that are made with patches, right?
08:58<NGC3982>It's not like i can NewGRF it, i guess.
08:58<@peter1138>yeah source code patches
08:58<NGC3982>I see.
08:59<@peter1138>must suck to have such a small screen :-p
09:00<NGC3982>Hehe, indeed.
09:00<NGC3982>It's a laptop
09:00<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/hiergroup.diff
09:02<NGC3982>Hm, alright.
09:02<NGC3982>How is a diff file implemented?
09:02<NGC3982>Do you compile it? Or is it simply loaded?
09:03<@peter1138>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=21678
09:03<NGC3982>Ah, thank you.
09:04<NGC3982>I guess it's time i create myself a forum username.
09:04<@peter1138>should be able to read that?
09:05<NGC3982>Yes, i was refering to being a part of the forum
09:05<@peter1138>hmm, i didn't bump the savegame version
09:05<@peter1138>shows i haven't tested loading groups :p
09:06<NGC3982>:D
09:06<@peter1138>(yup, it works)
09:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r24933 trunk/src/group_cmd.cpp (2013-01-22 14:31:01 UTC)
09:31<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#3473]: Make group names unique per company and vehicle type.
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10:17<Eddi|zuHause>an actual commit! :o
10:17<@peter1138>never
10:18<@peter1138>and 24932!
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10:30<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, FS#5043?
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>err... have no time to re-test that
10:31<@peter1138>nearly a year!
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>that was totally out of my radar...
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10:50<Celestar>hmm...
10:50<Celestar>56k context switches per second ..
10:50<Celestar>I need more but less beefy CPUs :P
10:52<Sacro>or a modem
10:52<Celestar>lol
10:53<Rubidium>Celestar: CUDA?
10:55<Rubidium>1024 cores on one video card ;)
10:55<@peter1138>oh god, the large maps patch goes to 1M these days :S
10:55<Rubidium>it did for like ever
10:55<@peter1138>yeah but i never looked at it :p
10:56<@peter1138>hmm, 600MB just for the map
10:57<Rubidium>and maybe it doesn't even save ;)
10:58<FLHerne>Rubidium: The saner sizes seem to work fine though :-)
10:58<@peter1138>yeah, 256x256
10:58*FLHerne has been using that patch for a few years with no problems other than lag :P
10:59<Rubidium>and... have you filled the 2kx2k map already?
10:59<Rubidium>like e.g. jgr did for 256x256 and I did for 128x128?
11:00<FLHerne>Rubidium: Not on my own, but certainly in MP with friends it fills quite fast
11:01<FLHerne>Normally I use 512x1024 on my own, and I can normally fill that between first steam trains and present day (using daylength though)
11:06<@peter1138>you should play ttd
11:07<@peter1138>80 trains, 80 rvs, 50 ships and 40 planes
11:08<FLHerne>That sounds very tedious. No CDist or autorefit or rivers or [insert older and more basic features] either...
11:08<Rubidium>I'd reckon that to be 'autorail'
11:09<Rubidium>or specifically, the dragging of the vertical and horizontal rail (from screen point of view)
11:10<@peter1138>autoslope
11:10<@peter1138>irregular stations
11:10<@peter1138>presignals
11:10<Rubidium>build on slopes
11:10<@peter1138>yeah that's the one i meat
11:10<@peter1138>*meant
11:10<@peter1138>mammoth trains!
11:11<@peter1138>station's the wrong size? tough, you gotta rebuild it
11:11<@peter1138>multiple rv stops
11:11<@peter1138>hmm
11:11<@peter1138>remember when people wanted us to implement sign cheat? heh
11:12<@peter1138>still, it was faster :p
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11:15<FLHerne>That's a lot of features :D
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11:23<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: TTO came pretty much to a halt when i had 80 trains
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>i only had that same effect with openttd when i started a map with ECS :p
11:25*andythenorth needs a FIRS coder
11:25<andythenorth>I'm hiring
11:25<andythenorth>I offer 50% equity
11:25<andythenorth>but I just have the ideas, you do the work
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11:44<NGC3982>Report: Half of Star Trek Voyager is now done.
11:44<NGC3982>Impressions: What __ln__ said.
11:45<NGC3982>It's a great series, but it can absolutely not match up to DS9.
11:51<andythenorth>that moment when you spend more time figuring out how to use your framework than it would take to edit the code manually
11:53<andythenorth>oh look
11:53<andythenorth>1,000,317 of grfs wot I helped make
11:53<andythenorth>downloads via bananas
11:53<andythenorth>that is
11:53<NGC3982>Time spent calculating and visualising scenarios can never be ill spent.
11:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: Impressive :P
11:54<andythenorth>well getting 1m downloads is not going to happen again in my lifer
11:54<andythenorth>-r
11:54<NGC3982>Are you sure?
11:54<FLHerne>I made one very simple one, which has never been downloaded by anyone :P
11:54<NGC3982>How much time did 1m take? :)
11:55<Rubidium>@calc 1000317/66790137*100
11:55<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 1.49770167413
11:55<Rubidium>that's only 1.5% of all bananas downloads?
11:56<andythenorth>:P
11:56<andythenorth>I've had a very fractional impact :P
11:56<andythenorth>might as well stop eh?
11:56<Pinkbeast>Even so that's got to put you up with Pikka in the top few
11:56<FLHerne>Can Bananas show downloads/time?
11:56<andythenorth>zeph wins
11:56<andythenorth>and that stupid ships grf
11:57<NGC3982>What is the most popular one? FIRS?
11:57<andythenorth>nah
11:57<andythenorth>people hate FIRS
11:57<Pinkbeast>HEQS? HEQS is kind of a no-brainer without AIs.
11:57<andythenorth>FISH is way more popular than the others
11:58<NGC3982>HEQS is nice.
11:58<andythenorth>FISH nearly twice as popular as HEQS
11:58<NGC3982>Oh
11:59<FLHerne>andythenorth: FISH is the only good ship grf on Bananas :-)
12:00<Rubidium>regarding bananas downloads, I'd rather think Zuu and Yexo (AI + libraries)
12:01<NGC3982>I see Yexo everywhere.
12:01<andythenorth>yexo did CHIPS
12:01<andythenorth>and a lot of FIRS
12:01<@peter1138># hello hello hello hello hello
12:02<andythenorth>is it me you're looking for?
12:02<andythenorth>out the lights out, it's less dangerous
12:03<Rubidium>based on (uploading) author Zuu is best; 6.3M, then Yexo 4.2M, Pikka 3.6M, Moriarty 3.6M, George: 2.7M, openttdcoop: 2.6M, planetmaker 2.1M. Zephyris is 12th with only 1.3M
12:05<andythenorth>hoo
12:05<NGC3982>Is it just me, or is OpenTTD more popular now than ever?
12:05<andythenorth>Rubidium has the stats :P
12:05<Rubidium>though it doesn't 'handle' the case where opengfx is contributed to by many people
12:06<Rubidium>and andy doesn't seem to upload using his own account
12:06<andythenorth>coop
12:08<Rubidium>only half a million opengfx (from bananas)
12:09*Rubidium comes to 700k with involvement in base sets
12:10<Rubidium>Zuu is 6.2M in AI/GS and Yexo 4.2M
12:10<andythenorth>interesting
12:10<andythenorth>much bigger numbers than newgrf
12:10<Rubidium>yeah, but downloading one AI gets you 10 or so libraries
12:10<Rubidium>which are all counted ;)
12:11<Rubidium>without libraries it's 1.4M for Zuu and 0.7M for Yexo
12:12<Rubidium>and... without further... the top 30: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2066/
12:12<Rubidium>for NewGRFs
12:14<@Terkhen>hello
12:14<Rubidium>oh andy... you got 87698 downloads ;)
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12:22<@peter1138>we have md5sumToString
12:22<@peter1138>do we have anything to do the opposite?
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12:26<frosch123>last time i needed that i wrote a hackish patch
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12:30<Eddi|zuHause>it can't be that hard to make a hex-to-int function
12:33<__ln__>NGC3982: Have they introduced Seven of Nine Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix Zero-One yet?
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12:55<MNIM>wait, what, a new sim city?
12:55*MNIM googles
12:57<@peter1138>pfft, 3d graphics
12:57<Rubidium>peter1138: I think there might be such a function in the masterserver and/or contentserver
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12:59<Rubidium>hmm, not a function, just a few lines of code mysql.cpp:366-382
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13:18<Kjetil>He said the M-word!
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes, Masterserver
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>which is a funny oxymoron :)
13:19<Kjetil>quite
13:19<@peter1138>what
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13:29<ZxBiohazardZx>question on r24932 what is the max_limit?
13:32<@peter1138>58
13:32<ZxBiohazardZx>aka 64-6
13:32<@peter1138>yes
13:32<ZxBiohazardZx>why only 64? is that max value of the bits we have for it?
13:33<ZxBiohazardZx>aka 256
13:33<@peter1138>no
13:33<ZxBiohazardZx>aka why not 256*
13:33<@peter1138>server protocol limit
13:33<@peter1138>why 256?
13:33<ZxBiohazardZx>8 bits?
13:33<ZxBiohazardZx>why only use 6 bits for it?
13:33<@peter1138>if you're using that many newgrfs, you're doing it wrong :S
13:34<ZxBiohazardZx>fair enough
13:34<@peter1138>nothing to do with bits, it's a server protocol limitation
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13:34<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: it's not about 6 bits, it's about (GRFID+MD5SUM)*56 is the largest to fit into one UDP package
13:35<ZxBiohazardZx>ah ok
13:35<ZxBiohazardZx>i had another question but i forgot it :)
13:35<ZxBiohazardZx>epic fail :P
13:36<@peter1138>technically the limit is 1 more in temperate than other climates
13:36<@peter1138>but that gives you a conceptual problem
13:36<ZxBiohazardZx>* Note: Cases are out of order for hysterical reasons. '0' is last.
13:36<@peter1138>so i ignored that detail
13:36<ZxBiohazardZx>Hysterical reasons?
13:36<ZxBiohazardZx>Historical reasons?
13:36<ZxBiohazardZx>^^
13:37<@peter1138>hysterical raisons
13:37<@peter1138>hysterical raisins even
13:37<ZxBiohazardZx>frosch to blame there
13:37<ZxBiohazardZx>aka should be historical?
13:37<@peter1138>not really
13:38<ZxBiohazardZx>Cases are out of order for historical reasons, not hysterical, i dont see hysteria as a reason, history could be a reason if your to lazy to reorder them
13:38<@peter1138>http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hysterical-reasons.html
13:39<@peter1138>it's just a bit of light-hearted commentary
13:39<ZxBiohazardZx>bug-by-bug compatible :P
13:39<ZxBiohazardZx>ah meh fine then
13:40<ZxBiohazardZx>Implement station randomisation triggers. whats that doing for gameplay?
13:40<ZxBiohazardZx>it affects pathfinding?
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, like if you want to proces microsoft-C-code, you need not only adhere to the microsoft-C-specs, but also the microsoft-C-bugs
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: no, it's pure eyecandy
13:41<ZxBiohazardZx>it adds an option to do something upon the enums listed?
13:41<ZxBiohazardZx>for grfs
13:41<ZxBiohazardZx>?
13:42<ZxBiohazardZx>aka new cargo, cargo taken etc
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what you're referring to
13:42<ZxBiohazardZx>nvm
13:42<@peter1138>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/RandomAction2
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, so e.g. stations that display passengers show the passengers at different location, each time a train came to pick them up
13:43<@peter1138>if it was coded right
13:43<ZxBiohazardZx>ah thx
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>it depends on which station NewGRF you use
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24934 /trunk/src/lang (14 files) (2013-01-22 18:46:08 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
13:46<@DorpsGek>croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<@DorpsGek>danish - 9 changes by beruic
13:46<@DorpsGek>dutch - 1 changes by habell
13:46<@DorpsGek>english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:46<@DorpsGek>esperanto - 10 changes by Mojosa
13:46<@DorpsGek>finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:46<@DorpsGek>french - 1 changes by Snail_
13:46<@DorpsGek>icelandic - 1 changes by Stimrol
13:46<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 3 changes by Yoursnotmine
13:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by Snail_
13:46<@DorpsGek>norwegian_nynorsk - 7 changes by lbrowncastle
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 4 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:46<@DorpsGek>turkish - 2 changes by magnum06
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>we have too many languages
13:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24935 /trunk/src/lang (brazilian_portuguese.txt korean.txt) (2013-01-22 18:46:57 UTC)
13:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix: language errors
13:47<MNIM>Eddi|zuHause: I say, time for some genocide then?
13:47<Supercheese>War of the Words
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not in a position to comment on that
13:48<MNIM>Silly germans and their ick-reaction to anything pertaining to genocide, war and nazism. :P
13:50<__ln__>so many languages yet no occitan.
13:51<Prof_Frink>Don't mention the war!
13:51<__ln__>There was a war?
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, in iraq, in afghanistan, and now in mali
13:52<Supercheese>and Libya, Egypt...
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>there was no war in egypt
13:53<Supercheese>civil war eh
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>there was no civil war either
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>there is a civil war in syria
13:54<ZxBiohazardZx>your forgetting Siria (or however you spell it in english)
13:54<Supercheese>revolution, civil war, eh, semantics
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>there was a revolution in egypt, but not every revolution is a full blown civil war
13:54<Prof_Frink>I like the idea of a civil war.
13:54<__ln__>the afghanistan situation is a crisis, not a war, our prime minister or somebody has insisted.
13:54<Prof_Frink>"I say old chap, would you mind terribly if I were to shoot you?"
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: our defence minister admitted to it being a war. and then he had to step down, because of copyright infringement
13:55<__ln__>finnish defence forces doesn't participate in wars abroad, but they can participate in a crisis.
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: german military forces cannot take part in offensive wars
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>it says so in the constitution
13:56<__ln__>what about offensive crises?
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>the americans forced us to put that in, even.
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13:58<__ln__>still amazes me that germany wasn't denied having submarines. finland was, even though the whole fleet was as much as five during the war(s).
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: they tried that after WWI
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>which lead to that giant disaster in the first place
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i think the versailles treaty said something like "germany may have 6 warships"
14:04<frosch123>which was obviously a mistake; they should have let them allowed to dump all money into useless ships
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>i think in the late 1920s a government actually broke up over money for renewing those warships
14:06-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
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14:09<Eddi|zuHause>(mind you that this was in the wake of the worldwide economical crisis)
14:10<__ln__>MNIM: would we have allowed the nazi germany to host olympic games?
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: he's not american :p
14:14<andythenorth>is that Godwin?
14:14<andythenorth>game over
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14:25<MNIM>__ln__: well, they did, didn't they?
14:28<__ln__>MNIM: did, twice
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14:38<@peter1138>http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zA2vPX-CWSE
14:40<Supercheese>those dances have virtually zero footwork
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>we had this one already
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i got this from another channel, dunno
14:52<@peter1138>do you think FS#54 can be closed?
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>as in "won't do it"?
14:54<@peter1138>well it zooms
14:55<blathijs>if the music was swapped to Dutch polka. (...) Polka tune from "Palemiger Spatzen - Alpenhornzauber" <-- That's German Polka, not Dutch
14:55<blathijs>I was nearly tempted to comment on Youtube, but let's not ("Someone is wrong on the internet!")
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: well it zooms out, not in
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15:06<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: and here i was thinking that polka actually was polish
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15:18<Wolf01>hello
15:26<__ln__>buona
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15:47<juanjo>@peter1138: about r24933, it is not per company as the commit states
15:47<juanjo>you can set the same name for groups of different vehicle type, but not for different companies; ie, if a company has a group of trains named Goods, then other companies cannot name a group of trains with the name Goods
15:48<juanjo>see http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2067/ , although I would choose a shorter name for the function.
15:50<frosch123>hmm, didn't we have that name issue already before with something else?
15:50<frosch123>i remember some discussion about what happening when taking over companies
15:53<juanjo>ok. Is it troublesome to have two groups named the same way?
15:54<juanjo>I guess it can be confusing after taking over a company having two groups with the same name
15:54<frosch123>i don't quite remember the argument :) i only remember that SmatZ was involved :)
15:55<juanjo>is there any function that depends on group names (apart from IsUniqueGroupName()) ?
15:55<NGC3982>__ln__: Nope, i guess i'm there soon, though.
15:56<frosch123>i think group names only appear in the group list and in the caption of the autoreplace window
15:57<@peter1138>oh well
15:58<@peter1138>could just remove the uniqueness test completely
15:58<@peter1138>it's not like it's hugely important
15:59<juanjo>it is important names are unique, so you know which group you are autoreplacing
16:00<frosch123>well, you can always blame it on the player :p
16:00<frosch123>it's important for town names, so you know where stuff is
16:00<juanjo>but you should name the groups the way you like, regardless of competitors group names
16:00<@peter1138>you choose the name, if you need it unique you make it unique?
16:00<frosch123>but groups...
16:01<frosch123>though maybe they should act like the vehicles
16:01<frosch123>if you name two groups the same, one is appended a "2" automatically
16:01<@peter1138>heh
16:01<@peter1138>that's only on cloning a vehicle isn't it?
16:02<frosch123>no idea :)
16:02<@peter1138>besides... http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/hgroup1.png
16:03<juanjo>what about resetting group names when a company is acquired?
16:03<frosch123>what's that? subgroups?
16:03<@peter1138>subgroups, yes
16:03<@peter1138>juanjo, doable. if nameisalreadyused, name = null
16:03<frosch123>i thought groups are uncool :p you want rules to form groups
16:03<Supercheese>Or appending "<acquiredCompanyName>" or some variant to the acquired groups
16:04<Supercheese>Coal Trains -- BlahBlah Transport
16:04<@peter1138>everybody wants rules for everyhing :-(
16:04<juanjo>i always thought groups shouldn't exist and use orderlists instead
16:04<@peter1138>always a pain in the arse to design a nice rule system, gui and code-wise
16:04<@peter1138>juanjo, yes well
16:04<frosch123>peter1138: it just fits with conditional orders and programmable signals :)
16:05<@peter1138>i'm contemplating making the order list window...
16:05<@peter1138>they don't have names though
16:05<juanjo>supercheese: instead of appending, just "Acquired company name: blablabla"
16:06<@peter1138>or an owner, actually, heh
16:06<Supercheese>juanjo: Yeah, something like that
16:06<@peter1138>non-unique group names along with sub-groups, but all the acquired company's groups in a sub-group
16:06<@peter1138>*put
16:06*Supercheese is off to university class
16:09<@peter1138>oh god
16:09<@peter1138>i call the branch...
16:09<@peter1138>advanced order list
16:09<@peter1138>or aol for short :(
16:10<juanjo>which branch?
16:11<@peter1138>21:04 < juanjo> i always thought groups shouldn't exist and use orderlists instead
16:11<@peter1138>21:05 <@peter1138> i'm contemplating making the order list window...
16:11<@peter1138>etc etc
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'm just thinking: "one troll? hundreds!!!"
16:13<Rubidium>those who say someone is a troll, is likely the troll, right? So if I interpret that right, I'm the troll now. Q.E.D.
16:14<@peter1138>hmm, is it possible to share orders between different vehicle types?
16:14<Rubidium>no
16:14<Rubidium>probably not even between aircraft/helicopters and truck/bus
16:14<Rubidium>or at least there's lot of checks ensuring the vehicle can "reach" the station
16:15<Rubidium>"reach" as in: has bay/landing spot/whatever that supports the type
16:16<@peter1138>indeed
16:16<@peter1138>bus/truck must match
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16:18<@peter1138>hmm
16:19<@peter1138>dst->orders.list = src->orders.list
16:19<@peter1138>means it's using the same OrderList, right?
16:19<Rubidium>looks like it
16:19<@peter1138>so why does it check if it can allocate a new orderlist?
16:19<Rubidium>for another case?
16:20<Rubidium>where is it exactly?
16:20<andythenorth>hrm
16:20<andythenorth>my comment was genuine
16:20<andythenorth>what is TROLL?
16:20<@peter1138>order_cmd.cpp:1491
16:20<@peter1138>specifically in the CO_SHARE case
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>not everything that you think is genious is actually genious
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>like, i did stop me from making about 10 posts to that topic since yesterday
16:21<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Especially that spelling of genius :P
16:21<Rubidium>peter1138: order.list == NULL in that case
16:21<andythenorth>genious probably is a real work
16:21<Rubidium>so it assigns NULL to dst->orders.list
16:21<andythenorth>if you can have ingenious...
16:21<andythenorth>then defacto, there is probably genious
16:21<Rubidium>and AddToShared then constructs the OrderList
16:21*FLHerne finds the dictionary
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>i only reported his original post that just said "troll", with the reason: "troll"
16:22<frosch123>[22:21] <Eddi|zuHause> like, i did stop me from making about 10 posts to that topic since yesterday <- that's certainly genious
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>THAT was genious :p
16:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: is he a trolll? I think he's genuine
16:22<andythenorth>I think he's also feeling hurt
16:22<Rubidium>hmm... I should move that to OpenTTD's off-topic section: suggestions
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16:23<FLHerne>Nothing between 'genetive' and 'genius' in my Oxford Concise :P
16:24<andythenorth>I certainly didn't intend to derail the topic :P
16:24<andythenorth>which is highly valuable
16:25<@peter1138>hmm, there's no check for planes/helis though
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: well, i can only deal with logical spellings :p
16:25<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: This is English. Why on earth do you expect logical spellings!?
16:25<Rubidium>FLHerne: mine has 4: genito-, genitor, genito-urinary and geniture
16:26<FLHerne>Rubidium: I need a bigger dictionary :D
16:26<andythenorth>FLHerne: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=genious
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: for sure i'd also spell it genitive
16:26<Rubidium>but it's the 2 inch version of the Oxford dictionary
16:26<FLHerne>andythenorth: That one doesn't count :P
16:27<andythenorth>of course it counts :P
16:27<FLHerne>Rubidium: Mine's about 2 inches, but it also has a thesaurus that I never use...
16:27<frosch123>peter1138: i guess there is neither for artic / non-artic rv
16:27<@peter1138>nope
16:27<@peter1138>but
16:27<FLHerne>Who was it that claimed 'ghoti' spelt fish?
16:27<frosch123>sharing them works at least sometimes
16:28<Rubidium>55x233x156 mm (or 1.57 kg)
16:28<NGC3982>"< FLHerne> Rubidium: Mine's about 2 inches" *saves in a little box*
16:28-!-Superuser [~root@host86-152-172-169.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
16:28<@peter1138>yeah, it checks if the vehicle can use the stop
16:28<FLHerne>NGC3982: Quit being Bukkit :P
16:28<andythenorth>FLHerne: there is little to be gained by comparing sizes
16:28-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6DA5D.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:28<NGC3982>FLHerne: What Andy said.
16:28<NGC3982>:D
16:30<FLHerne>andythenorth: Within books of a similar layout and genre, volume is well-correlated with the quantity of content... :D
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16:34<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: what you miss when you take the dictionary as authoritive how to write things, is that the dictionary is just a reflection on how things are written. which is somewhat recursive
16:34<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: There are too many words (and spellings) already :P
16:36<Rubidium>though I think English has less words than Dutch or German (though there are more words in the English dictionary)
16:36<Rubidium>but in at least Dutch there's mostly a single spelling
16:37<Rubidium>with English and its "dialects", especially American, there are annoying differences in spelling
16:38<Rubidium>how one can annoy coworkers by writing kilometre
16:40<FLHerne>Rubidium: That's the correct spelling :D
16:42<Rubidium>though their spell checker triggers as they are mostly configured to American
16:42<Rubidium>(annoyingly)
16:44<@peter1138>:q
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16:55<@peter1138>Pikka, is the voyager meant to smoke every vehicle?
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17:14<@peter1138>hmm, can industry sets affect town ratings?
17:14<NGC3982>Please make a Star Trek Voyager NewGRF.
17:15<NGC3982>Shipping goods in Warp 9.8 should be fub.
17:15<NGC3982>fun/fubar.
17:15<andythenorth>peter1138: you found a bug, or got an idea?
17:16<frosch123>i think if you fund an industry the tree killing might affect the funder
17:16<frosch123>but other than that, there shouldn't :)
17:17-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1B850.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:19<Rubidium>NGC3982: then transport goods at warp 10; with a bit of luck they arrive fresher than when they were shipped ;)
17:19<NGC3982>Rubidium: Hehe.
17:19<NGC3982>It would be a fun thing to see
17:19<NGC3982>Tiles being shorter in front of it, and longer behind it
17:19<NGC3982>And the colors.
17:26<frosch123>night
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17:29<Wolf01>'night all
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17:46<andythenorth>bye
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17:47<andythenorth>V453000: I call you "TROLL"
17:48<andythenorth>also v2.0 is done
17:48<andythenorth>I mentioned that the other day
17:48<V453000>^^
17:48<andythenorth>we should close the thread
17:48<Zuu>andythenorth: You should start making AI/GS libraries if you want to boost your bananas download count.
17:48<andythenorth>he
17:48<Zuu>SuperLib is currently about 1.1M in total downloads.
17:48<andythenorth>Wasila set out two goals here http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=856542#p856542
17:49<andythenorth>at the start of the v2.0 thread
17:49<andythenorth>one is invalid
17:49<andythenorth>and the other is done
17:49<V453000>that thread is a joke from the start :)
17:50<andythenorth>not entirely
17:50<andythenorth>GS is done :)
17:50<andythenorth>so the OP called it correctly
17:50<Zuu>So next version have to be 2.1 to correct for not making the previous version 2.0?
17:50<andythenorth>:)
17:53<Zuu>That said, it is quite useful that so far, x in 1.x give the last digit in the year it was released.
18:01<FLHerne>Is there anything that *would* inspire a 2.0 release?
18:02<FLHerne>Cargo routing of some sort, perhaps? Underground layer (if even possible)?
18:03*FLHerne can't really think of anything that would have a huge impact on the game
18:04<@planetmaker>That's one of the questions, FLHerne :-)
18:05<@planetmaker>layered map array with rotation maybe. and a re-worked client-server model :D
18:05<FLHerne>planetmaker: Did anyone think of an anwer? :P
18:05<@planetmaker>yeah... people in that thread ;-)
18:05<NGC3982>It's in the middle of the night and i am hungry.
18:05<FLHerne>Did anyone who actually has something to do with development/numbering think of one?
18:05<NGC3982>Well, that sucks.
18:06<@planetmaker>of an answer?
18:06<NGC3982>And i hate trams.
18:06<@planetmaker>we started the thread as we were unsure. 1.0 had a clear vision: all what TTD could but all on its own, a 100% free game
18:07<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/GkSZFXF.png
18:07<@planetmaker>But the question is: what's the vision for the future?
18:07<NGC3982>All the frickin' times..
18:07<@planetmaker>What do we want to achieve? And aim for?
18:07<@planetmaker>just piling features is no vision :-)
18:07<NGC3982>planetmaker: Is that no longer a notion that the developers push forward?
18:07<NGC3982>The 100% free game.
18:07<@planetmaker>we're there. We achieved that goal
18:08<NGC3982>I would not say it's a thing that you solve once, and never turn back too.
18:09<NGC3982>Developers leave, and developers come. Are you sure the non commercial window that you look trough is there in ten years?
18:09<V453000>it was a milestone for 1.0 is what matters here :)
18:09<NGC3982>Indeed.
18:09<NGC3982>I guess.
18:10<@planetmaker>NGC3982, no-one can change the license OpenTTD is distributed under
18:10<NGC3982>I see.
18:10<@planetmaker>so with GPL as license, that's feasible. But everyone will always be able to get the source code and just compile themselves
18:10<NGC3982>Does that apply to everything connected to the game? NewGRF's, and such?
18:11<@planetmaker>and is allowed to give it away for free
18:11<@Terkhen>good night
18:11<V453000>each newgrf has its own license NGC3982
18:11<@planetmaker>NewGRFs are their own thing. As you should know. they have separate licenses
18:11<@planetmaker>night, Terkhen
18:11<NGC3982>Ok.
18:12<@planetmaker>and there are enough people writing newgrfs which exercise quite rigidly their copyright and don't grant any rights to the user than simply using hte newgrf
18:12<NGC3982>I see.
18:14<@planetmaker>it's actually worse with admin scripts... they exist. But none is available
18:18<Supercheese>I think most people don't even know admin scripts exist, or what they are
18:18<Supercheese>I'm not even sure
18:18<@planetmaker>that's likely right
18:19<@planetmaker>but most people don't need them either
18:19<NGC3982>I have no idea what they are.
18:19<Supercheese>some server-side thingy that communicates with/via admin port
18:19<Supercheese>my guess
18:19<@planetmaker>yes. control interface for servers
18:19<NGC3982>I see
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18:54*Supercheese ponders adding 2x and 4x zoom sprites to Eyecandy Road Vehicles
18:54<Supercheese>I have the renders, I just have to sort out how the action colors might work
18:56<Superuser>NEIN
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: you can use 8bpp zoom sprites, then the action colours work exactly like before
18:58<Supercheese>Yes, I'm testing if I convert the renders to 8bpp if they look 'good enough'
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18:58<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: with 32bpp there's some overlay, but i have no clue how it actually works
18:58<Supercheese>Yeah...
19:01<Supercheese>I can probably get away with 8bpp
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19:26<Supercheese>If I only provide 1x and 4x zoom sprites, which are used for 2x zoom?
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
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19:47<Eddi|zuHause>http://42.holz.nu/5e59e.png
19:55<Supercheese>That must have been premeditated
19:56<Supercheese>"is the time warp a keyframe I should know of?" <- sounds too much like a troll question
19:58<Superuser>hahahaha
19:59<Supercheese>http://www.space.com/19368-asteroid-mining-deep-space-industries.html
20:00<Supercheese>Asteroid mining, really?
20:00<Supercheese>I fail to see the practicality of that...
20:01<Pinkbeast>1) Attract venture capital from people who don't realise how expensive delta-v is
20:02<Pinkbeast>2) pay self large salary
20:02<Pinkbeast>3) ... profit
20:02<Supercheese>:S
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20:07<Superuser>http://translator.openttd.org/en/trunk/el_GR/STR_VEHICLE_INFO_NO_CAPACITY <-- what is {STRING} in this?
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20:08<Supercheese>That link is not viewable to non-translators
20:11<Superuser>okay
20:11<Superuser>{BLACK}Capacity: {LTBLUE}None{STRING}
20:11<Superuser>String name in the code: STR_VEHICLE_INFO_NO_CAPACITY
20:13<Supercheese>cargo subtype, perhaps
20:13<Supercheese>e.g. Capacity: X passengers (Airliner)
20:13<Supercheese>as opposed to X passengers (Combi)
20:13<Superuser>don't you think there should be a space between None and {STRING}
20:14<Supercheese>oh wait, no capacity
20:14<Supercheese>I dunno
20:14<Supercheese>Capacity: None (Gear ratio x:y)
20:14<Superuser>please find out
20:14<Superuser>wat
20:14<Supercheese>maybe
20:14<Supercheese>I dunno
20:15<Supercheese>NARS still uses a regearing cargo, but if it is recoded to not use it, that may be how it would look; this is all conjecture
20:15<Supercheese>I am not a dev
20:16<Superuser>oh okay
20:16<Superuser>should I highlight a developer's name
20:16<Superuser>well, they're idling here so clearly they are open for questioning. peter1138!
20:17<Supercheese>Yes, it is subtype
20:18<Supercheese>Line 248: train_gui.cpp
20:18<Supercheese>well, 247-248: SetDParam(0, item->subtype);
20:18<Supercheese> str = STR_VEHICLE_INFO_NO_CAPACITY;
20:18<Supercheese>You may be right about a space being necessary
20:18<Supercheese>lemme throw a test grf together
20:19<Superuser>you can comprehend C++... and you are NOT a developer? o_O
20:19<Supercheese>correct
20:20<Superuser>anything beyond simple scripts (preferably python or ruby, shell too) baffles me :(
20:20<Superuser>guess I've been spoilt by Ruby, now I can't get into ugly language like cpp
20:21<Supercheese>Hmm, perhaps different vehicle types (RV, train, etc) are handled differently
20:23<Supercheese>I don't have any train grfs, bah
20:24<Superuser>so do you know what the {STRING} is...?
20:24<Supercheese>Pretty sure, I'm testing to make sure
20:26<Supercheese>Ok, confirmed, there needs to be a space there
20:27<Supercheese>{STRING} turns into the Cargo subtype, as I suspected
20:33<Supercheese>C++ is vastly easier to comprehend than NFO...
20:36<Superuser>hmm
20:36<Superuser>I think there should be a space between 'None' and {STRING}, what do you think Supercheese? Should I file a bug for this
20:37<Supercheese>There should indeed be a space there, as I confirmed
20:37<Supercheese>if you have webtranslator access for English, feel free to change it there
20:37<Supercheese>otherwise, just tell a dev and they'll fix it, I don't quite think it warrants an official bug report
20:41<Superuser>oh I file bug reports for everything. It's part of the project's history (I'm an amateur historian and I believe in recording anything and everything)
20:41<Supercheese>Well, it is technically a bug, you could file one
20:41<Superuser>also nope, but I wish I were granted access for English :( 3 strings have been changed already.
20:41<Superuser>more actually
20:41<Supercheese>"Missing space in STR_BLAHBLAH"
20:41<Superuser>note that FlySpray is an ISSUE tracker :P not just bugs
20:42<Superuser>just things that fuck pedantic people like me off in general
20:44<Supercheese>That string is valid only for Trains with cargo capacity of zero but a valid cargo subtype, from what I've found
20:44<Superuser>egg-celent http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5447
20:45<Superuser>9 tasks opened, 8 of which concern faults in English strings
20:45<Superuser>feels good man
20:49<Supercheese>I added my supporting evidence to http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5447
20:51<Supercheese>Hmmmm
20:51<Supercheese>Other places seem to not have a space...
20:52<Supercheese>STR_VEHICLE_INFO_CAPACITY for example
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23:20<fixi>hey folks
23:20<fixi>.t
23:21<fixi>anyone online?
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23:56<Supercheese>fixi: I am now
23:56<Supercheese>do you have a question, perhaps?
---Logclosed Wed Jan 23 00:00:14 2013