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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-27

---Logopened Sun Jan 27 00:00:22 2013
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00:24<Supercheese>Well, now people can mess around with seagulls
00:24<Supercheese>(and other stuff)
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02:42<andythenorth>Pikka: you ok? Seen the weather reports
02:42<Pikka>just been for a drive to the shops :)
02:42<Pikka>merry goodtimes
02:44<Pikka>whose idea was recoding TaI, anyway? D:
02:46<Pikka>lack of a global random seed is annoying
02:47<Pikka>just have to make it a parameter D:
02:47<andythenorth>there's no shenanigans with map you can do?
02:48<andythenorth>position of first town or something?
02:48<andythenorth>peter1138 ^ pikka needs a global random seed for newgrf
02:48<andythenorth>can you make it so? :P
02:49<Pikka>there is one global persistent storage per grf
02:49<Pikka>which belongs to towns
02:50<Pikka>I don't know if that means industries can access it via related object?
02:50<andythenorth>what happened to the Vossloh thingy in UKRS 2?
02:50<Pikka>it blew up
02:50<andythenorth>lame :P
02:50<andythenorth>they're 99mph :O
02:51<Pikka>not UK loading gauge though
02:51<andythenorth>and way too much power
02:51<andythenorth>hmm, maybe a 'futuristic' genset loco
02:51<Pikka>well, these ones
02:51<andythenorth>3x1,000 hp
02:52<andythenorth>only brings more hp online if needed
02:52<andythenorth>how would that even be implemented? :P
02:52<Pikka>magic ;)
02:52<Pikka>these vosslohs are pretty much class 67ish
02:52<Pikka>not like the ones in UKRS1
02:57<andythenorth>need this one :P
02:57<Pikka>that was the one in UKRS1
02:58<Pikka>but it isn't UK loading gauge :)
02:58<andythenorth>chop the cab off :P
02:58<andythenorth>play "let's pretend" :)
02:58<@peter1138>oh realism
02:59<@peter1138>tops class 21!
03:00<andythenorth>new railtype
03:00<andythenorth>Euro loading gauge
03:00<andythenorth>expensive to convert :P
03:01<Pikka>can't run "normal" passenger trains on it because the platform gap is too big :)
03:01<andythenorth>dedicated freight line
03:04<Pikka>fright line, moite
03:06<Pikka>need while loops in nfo :D
03:06<@peter1138>hmm, did they build HS1 with a sensible loading gauge?
03:07<@peter1138>guess it must be as it goes to europe
03:07<Pikka>eurostars are built to UK loading gauges though
03:08<@peter1138>UIC GC
03:08<andythenorth>Central Railway plans have been around for years
03:08<Pikka>mad if you don't
03:10<andythenorth>anyway I'm a cheater
03:10<andythenorth>don't care about replicating UK :P
03:10<andythenorth>it's just UKRS 2 is my favourite set right now :P
03:10<andythenorth>and after 20xx it gets a bit meh
03:11<andythenorth>so does HEQS :P
03:11<andythenorth>and FISH
03:11<Pikka>and everything
03:11<andythenorth>oh yeah
03:11<andythenorth>maybe it's a non-problem
03:11<Pikka>but on the other hand, we've pushed the start date forward 100 years
03:11<Pikka>1850-1950 is a fair trade for 2020-2050?
03:12<andythenorth>I like 1870-2000
03:12<Pikka>brook 'em
03:13<Pikka>actually, my problem is not coming up with a "random" seed
03:14<Pikka>it's turning that seed into an economic state :P
03:14<andythenorth>recession / boom etc?
03:15<andythenorth>need NewEconomy
03:15<andythenorth>bin the existing two, make it extensible
03:15<Pikka>I am
03:15<andythenorth>solve some issues that are currently hard for newgrf
03:15<Pikka>are they?
03:15<andythenorth>industry closure is
03:15<andythenorth>dunno about the others
03:16<Pikka>we shall see if I can make the grf live up to my plans
03:16<andythenorth>I should make this port
03:16<Pikka>hard for newgrf, yes
03:16<andythenorth>then I can release this grf
03:16<Pikka>you should
03:26*andythenorth works on it
03:27<andythenorth>these tiles at 1, 255 are interesting :P
03:27<andythenorth>for fishing harbour
03:28<andythenorth>wonder wtf they're supposed to be doing :P
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03:33<Pokka>my computer stayed up through two brownouts
03:33<Pokka>but my router did not
03:36<andythenorth>very sim city
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03:37-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
03:37<andythenorth>lo Alberth
03:38<@Alberth>hi andy
03:39<Pokka>more like the wind blowing things into the powerlines
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03:39<andythenorth>flying roos
03:40<andythenorth>one day there'll be an australia set
03:40<andythenorth>I mean a good one :P
03:41<andythenorth>is a good?
03:41<andythenorth>I tried it once
03:42<@Terkhen>good morning
03:43<andythenorth>bonsoir Terkhen
03:43<andythenorth>Pokka: what's wrong with it?
03:50<@peter1138>5000 iterations of each layout
03:50<@peter1138>but it's not passed to the grf
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03:50<@peter1138>seems a lot :p
03:51<@peter1138>at least for prospecting. hmm.
03:51<@peter1138>10000 or 2000 tries for ingame placement
03:52<@peter1138>depending on whether it is "trying hard" heh
03:52<@Alberth>perhaps the initial placement must try harder to ensure not breaking industry chains?
03:54<@peter1138>only used on game generation
03:54<@peter1138>so can we give that counter as feedback to a newgrf?
03:57<andythenorth>one way to not break chains
03:57<andythenorth>is that newgrf authors shouldn't make stupid grfs
03:57<andythenorth>with 48 industry types
03:58<@peter1138>yes andy
03:58<andythenorth>including industries with massive flat layouts that can't be placed on mountains
04:05<Eddi|zuHause>all you need is a "smaller layouts" parameter+
04:06<Eddi|zuHause>btw, why are your power-outages racist? :p
04:06<andythenorth>means redrawing
04:06<andythenorth>redrawing is dull
04:10<@Alberth>peter1138: so what would the newgrf do with information "it is hard to build this industry" ?
04:11<@Alberth>a different strategy could be to get information on landscape shape requirements
04:12<@Alberth>(and do some landscaping to make it fit :) )
04:21*peter1138 ponders a new game
04:22<@peter1138>as it's 205x
04:24<@peter1138>larger map, sparser towns
04:25<andythenorth>peter1138: Goal Script :P
04:25<andythenorth>not so good for "let's watch the trains" mind
04:25<Pokka>Alberth, see flyspray
04:26<Pokka>it would allow "desirable" placement conditions, rather than just "required" ones
04:26<andythenorth>'prefers towns'
04:27<Pokka>'prefers mountaintops', but will still build /somewhere/ if there are no mountaintops available.
04:27<andythenorth>I assume placement runs the full varaction 2 chain every time though?
04:27<andythenorth>so this could just be done with random?
04:27<andythenorth>1/8 chance of not building on mountaintops
04:27<Pokka>but I want mountaintops if they're there
04:28<Pokka>and, if not mountaintops, I want hilltops
04:28<@Alberth>the other way around is to return a "desirability to build here", instead of yes/no
04:29<Pokka>sounds more complex for you and less transparent for me :)
04:30<andythenorth>do we really need an advanced setting to stop towns building on farmland?
04:31-!-Pokka is now known as Pikka
04:31*andythenorth was roaming fS
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04:34<@Alberth> it's a bit more work, but not rocket science by any means
04:35<Pikka>so what does this do, Alberth?
04:35<@Alberth>it keeps track of the most desirable place to build
04:35<@Alberth>rather than putting it down at the first spot you say "yes"
04:36<Pikka>how does it decide how desirable a place is?
04:36<@Alberth>newgrf tells that
04:37<Pikka>could work, I guess. :)
04:38<Pikka>wind gust speeds at cape moreton hit 126 km/h :)
04:39<Pikka>10 minute average speed is now 106 km/h
04:39<Pikka>that's a pretty stiff breeze
04:41<andythenorth>get a kite?
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04:43<@peter1138>hmm, big map is big
04:45<andythenorth>where is server? :P
04:45<Pikka>I ate it
04:45<Pikka>after I won
04:45<@Alberth>hopefully it was not a big server :)
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>make it 2048x2048 with 10 towns and no automatic industries :p
04:46<andythenorth>Pikka: flherne beat you anyway
04:46<andythenorth>peter1138: 'temperate basic' eh?
04:46<andythenorth>you need my new FIRS, with easier supply requirements :P
04:46<andythenorth>not on banananas
04:46<andythenorth>ain't done
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04:55<@peter1138>cool, simuscape drama
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05:01<gamebuster>anyone here?
05:01<gamebuster>ok, bye
05:02<gamebuster>is there a way to extract a .grf? :P
05:05<andythenorth>simuscape dramas? Really
05:05<@peter1138>who'da thunk it
05:05<gamebuster>dammit, grfcodec hates mac users :P
05:05<@peter1138>no, everyone does
05:06<gamebuster>except for the mac users themselves? :P
05:07<andythenorth>I hate mac users
05:07<andythenorth>grfcodec works fine for me though
05:07<andythenorth>what's the issue?
05:07<gamebuster>not really an issue, just lazy to boot up my windows machine
05:08<gamebuster>but it's booting now, so now I wait... :P
05:08<andythenorth>why not use the OS X build?
05:08<andythenorth>like me :)
05:08<gamebuster>i must be blind
05:08<gamebuster>i only see a linux and iwndows build :P
05:08*andythenorth looks
05:08<gamebuster>o nvm, wrong site
05:09<gamebuster>see, also no osx version :P
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05:10<gamebuster>maybe i could compile it
05:10<gamebuster>but i think using the windows version is faster :P
05:10<gamebuster>i'm not in the mood for compile errors
05:10<andythenorth>maybe I compiled mine
05:10<gamebuster>or you could upload the osx binary :P
05:11<gamebuster>o god, commandline on windows
05:11<gamebuster>i instantly type "cd" and "ls"; they don't work and i should have known that... :P
05:12<gamebuster>now i have to google all commands
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05:13<@Alberth>are you sure it's faster? :)
05:13<gamebuster>not really... :P
05:14<gamebuster>i hate compiling stuff
05:14<gamebuster>it always fails :P
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05:14<gamebuster>src/mapescapes.h:25:10: fatal error: 'boost/bimap.hpp' file not found #include <boost/bimap.hpp> ^ 1 error generated. make: *** [objs/info.o] Error 1
05:14<gamebuster>see? :P
05:15<andythenorth>dunno if it has any deps
05:15<@Alberth>doesn't the readme or install instructions say you need boost at the machine?
05:15<gamebuster>tnx :D
05:15<gamebuster>what readme :P
05:15<andythenorth>you may still need boost
05:15<gamebuster>lol :P
05:15<V453000>oooh drama, I like drama
05:15<gamebuster>dmmit :P
05:15<andythenorth>doesn't mention boost
05:16<andythenorth>V453000: this is non-witty drama though :P
05:16<@Alberth>may be a compile-time only dependency
05:16<andythenorth>it's just going to be 'wall of text' drama
05:16<andythenorth>which is boring
05:16<andythenorth>who's mod?
05:16<gamebuster>tnx andy, it works
05:16<andythenorth>just close the thread already as pointless
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05:16<andythenorth>gamebuster: I'm going to delete it from the devzone then
05:16<andythenorth>don't want old versions lying around ;)
05:17<V453000>still good drama
05:17<andythenorth>V453000: I totally disagree with you
05:17<andythenorth>let's fight
05:18<gamebuster>i love opensource stuff <3
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05:22<gamebuster>lol, an 11MB png file with ground sprites :D
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05:25<@peter1138>32bpp 4x sprites are large, woo
05:25<Rubidium>but 32bpp doesn't have such large PNGs
05:25<gamebuster>i'm trying to create a tiny RTS game in HTML5, using 32bpp ground tiles to test :P
05:26<gamebuster>i have ben robbins' ground tiles here; its one big ass png :P
05:27<@planetmaker>does the license allow usage or do you have permission?
05:28<gamebuster>i dont know; no
05:28<gamebuster>but its for personal usage only :P
05:28<gamebuster>just testin'
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05:29<gamebuster>once i got it working and i want to put it online, i will search for a "legal" one
05:30<gamebuster>i assume the grf's all have a simular format
05:30<@planetmaker>depends on similar. But grfcodec will give you a single large png (or a few) in all cases by default
05:30<@Alberth>it's usually a lot simpler when you directly experiment with the sprites you can use in the release; at the least it reduces the effort to code the right offsets of all sprites. It also allows you to make screen shots of your experimental results
05:31<gamebuster>@planetm great :)
05:31<@planetmaker>and what Alberth says. It's double work :D
05:31<gamebuster>the offsets are stored in the nfo, arent they?
05:31<gamebuster>problem solved :P
05:31<gamebuster>regular expressions to the rescue
05:32<@Alberth>what makes you think the new version is available with offsets?
05:32<gamebuster>i don't
05:32<@Alberth>so how does nfo solve the problem then?
05:32<gamebuster>its just a personal testing project
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05:33<gamebuster>it is not intended as anything to release
05:33<gamebuster>just a sunday afternoon testing project :P
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06:10<gamebuster>what's moin? :P
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06:11<@Alberth>hi Wolf :)
06:11<@planetmaker>hi Wolf01 :-)
06:26<frosch123>gamebuster: maybe it's a result of the dutch/german domination in this channel :p if you mix those two i believe you end up with frisian stuff :p
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06:45<gamebuster>i'm dutch, but i've never heard of it before :P
06:46<gamebuster>and i've never heard it in germany either
06:48<@planetmaker>you've never been to the Northern parts of either then ;-)
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>traditionally, "moin" (or "moin moin") is a greeting in a rather small area near Hamburg. it has somewhat spread since the introduction of television
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07:09<gamebuster>northern, as in, groningen/friesland?
07:09<fonsinchen>Why does that actually compile? What does it do? And how can I make it do what I want it to do?
07:09<gamebuster>because I lived in Hoogeveen (drenthe)
07:10<gamebuster>why shouldn't it compile?
07:10<fonsinchen>The anonymous struct should not be allowed there because it's a declaration, not an instantiation.
07:10<fonsinchen>(I think)
07:11<gamebuster>good point, i think
07:11<gamebuster>too bad i hardly know any CPP :P
07:11<@Alberth>you can have anonymous structs in C/C++
07:11<fonsinchen>At least it doesn't do what it should. One thing is that for weird reasons, "transfers" is not actually private there.
07:11<@Alberth>ie typedef struct { ... } foo; is quite normal in C
07:12<gamebuster>but the "foo" is missing; it is anonymous and it isn't assigned to a variable/property/whatever it is called in C++ :P
07:13<@Alberth>the "foo" is part of the typedef, not of the struct
07:13<gamebuster>o i get it, you can either assign a "station" or a cargo + transfers
07:13<@Alberth>fonsinchen: struct makes everything public by default, or am I missing something?
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07:14<gamebuster>i wish my C/C++ skillz were better. Too bad i've no point in using C/C++ because i've no reason to use it
07:14<@Alberth>ie private: bool transfers ?
07:14<frosch123>fonsinchen: i think that code is invalid according to 9.5.2 of c++98
07:14<gamebuster>and it's a little too much to learn as a hobby :P
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>is that just me or is the indentation on that page totally broken?
07:15<gamebuster>i think its just you, or our definition of "totally broken" differ
07:16<gamebuster>i think this is the nicest sourcecode i've ever seen in an opensource game :P
07:16*fonsinchen checks the C++ standard
07:16<gamebuster>i can actually somewhat understand what the **** is going on here :P
07:16<@Alberth>it misses a lot of @return :)
07:16<gamebuster>it never returns anything :P
07:17<gamebuster>or do you like "@return void" comments :P
07:17<frosch123>hmm, actually... does the compiler interpret it as definition of a nested type, or as a member variable
07:17<frosch123>it's neither
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>please tell me that it doesn't look like this for everyone else...
07:20<frosch123>no, it does not look like that for me :p
07:20<frosch123>it's properly indented here
07:20<gamebuster>here as well
07:20<gamebuster>looks like a font is missing
07:21<gamebuster>and its using a non-fixed-width font :P
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>it looks correct in firefox
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>and this is clearly a momospace font
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>just the number of spaces is wrong
07:22<gamebuster>hmm you're right :P
07:23<fonsinchen>I should probably check what the compiler does there and write a bug report for the GCC folks ...
07:24<fonsinchen>However, probably it's just some case of "undefined behaviour" I'm triggering there.
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>who actually completely understands the C++ specs? :p
07:25<fonsinchen>As it is now it somehow writes and reads from different places when you try to interact with "cargo".
07:25<fonsinchen>So you can't retrieve certain entries once you've inserted them.
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>i think konqueror does something wrong with replacing the tabs :/
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>or it's some magic javascript involved
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>which won't work if javascript is disabled
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07:33<fonsinchen>so I need to define a struct CargoAndTransfer somewhere and refer to it there. However, as that cannot be anonymous, I have to write some more glue code to get all the casts and assignments right. Looks ugly.
07:34<fonsinchen>Or I just don't pack it so tightly and add an extra member "transfer" outside the union. Also ugly.
07:34<@Alberth>unions are somewhat ugly in OO
07:35<fonsinchen>In this case it's justified. A CargoDataEntry can only refer to either a station or a cargo.
07:36<fonsinchen>And the information if there are transfers is only interesting for cargo entries if cargodist is disabled.
07:36<@Alberth>in pure OO, you'd make two classes, but openttd is a hybride :)
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07:39<fonsinchen>I should probably make 3 classes. RootDataEntry, CargoDataEntry, StationDataEntry. That will further bloat the code, though.
07:40<@Alberth>yeah, it's not the typical openttd solution
07:40<@peter1138>drop down lists
07:44<fonsinchen>template<class Tchild> class CargoDataEntry { ... };
07:46<@Alberth>when in doubt build a meta-level :p
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: yes/no/filenotfound?
07:47<@peter1138>if you want
07:49<andythenorth>annual profit is lame
07:49<andythenorth>why not lifetime profit?
07:50<andythenorth>annual profit is crappy for ships
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>code it
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>but "lifetime profit" may mean that it will take ages until you are notified of a problem with your network
07:51<fonsinchen>template<class Tchild, class Tparent, class Tid> ... template<class Tsubject>CargoSorter ... I think I know why I didn't do that when I first wrote that code.
07:51<andythenorth>I turn all those off anyway
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: have you ever looked at YAPF internals? :p
07:52<fonsinchen>briefly. Why?
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>it has like 7 nested layers of templates, or so
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>i think KUDr was a madman :p
07:54<fonsinchen>I'm also using templates in other places. But just to differentiate between to types of IDs; that seems silly
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>either you use inheritance, or templates, or unions, or... something will always be ugly
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08:09<Guest5895>hi, I have a quick question
08:09<Guest5895>been hearing about this game from my collegues lately and wanted to give it a try
08:09<Guest5895>what version would you suggest me getting?
08:10<Guest5895>ok :)
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08:26<gamebuster> only 9999 days left before i ported openttd to HTML5 :D :P
08:27<gamebuster>time for breakfast
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08:43<@peter1138>is that how screenshots are made on a mac?
08:43<@peter1138>with shadows around window borders...
08:44<@Alberth>gamebuster: and does the sprite license allow publishing such examples?
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08:48<andythenorth>bets on whether this simuscape thread ends well?
08:48<andythenorth>I put £5 on someone having a huff before the day is out
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>you posted there, that might as well be like a godwin event... :p
08:49<andythenorth>should just lock the thread
08:49<andythenorth>but maybe that's overkill
08:49<andythenorth>or at least move it to off-topic with all the crap I don't read
08:50*Rubidium wonders what the final solution to this conflict will be
08:50<@peter1138>find a pram
08:50<V453000>I will tell you that Rubi :) nothing at all
08:50<@peter1138>throw the baby's toys out of it
08:51<@peter1138>find a saucepan, jump into a fire
08:51<andythenorth>I don't get the issue
08:51<andythenorth>some people want to develop in private
08:51<V453000>there isnt really any issue
08:51<andythenorth>they haven't been coming by and making dramas in tt-forums recently
08:51<andythenorth>so why are 'we' making dramas at them :
08:52<V453000>because a random person touched the topic :D seriously no reason
08:52<gamebuster>alberth: i don't know; maybe the author will sue me for publishing
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: honestly, i see a civilized discussion, not a "drama"... so what are you complaining about?
08:52<andythenorth>maybe you're right
08:53<V453000>tbh I sort of understand why does someone create a separate page where they develop stuff, I even partially understand all the registering and stuff rules, but what I absolutely fail to understand is why not bananas
08:53<andythenorth>because they don't want to :)
08:53<andythenorth>end of?
08:53<@peter1138>cos bananas doesn't let them remove old versions
08:53<@peter1138>and they think they need to
08:53<V453000>I know that, but that isnt why :)
08:54<V453000>well thats dumb :)
08:54<@peter1138>never mind that because it's a manual update, people are more likely to be using old version
08:54<@Alberth>gamebuster: unfortunately, it is very easy to mess up these things, it pays to be ahead of them and first check before using something, imho
08:54<andythenorth>I actually can't se anyone mentioning trolling
08:54<andythenorth>so I am baffleds
08:54<andythenorth>what is Dave on about?
08:54<V453000>nothing as always?
08:55<frosch123>well, i somewhat have the hope that dave leaves ttf and joins simuscape
08:55<andythenorth>the only person who has mentioned trolling recently is that guy who was in a huff about something
08:55<andythenorth>and me
08:55<andythenorth>anyway, my harbour is broken :P
08:56<V453000>I think nuts is stable for now :>
08:57<@planetmaker><gamebuster> alberth: i don't know; maybe the author will sue me for publishing <-- that's a dangerous attitude. We've see what you ask for
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08:58<gamebuster>i like to play dangerous games
08:58<@Alberth>if you have a million or so euros to spare, it's no problem, but otherwise, it could cost you dearly
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09:00<gamebuster>i thought creating a HTML5 mini RTS using some OpenTTD sprites was a waste of time, but looks like some people found higher levels of wasting time
09:03<andythenorth>is it nap time?
09:03<gamebuster>no, its breakfast time
09:03<gamebuster>for me
09:03<gamebuster>its 3PM and haven't eaten anything yet
09:03<V453000>clearly nap to me
09:06<Pokka>it's exploding ostrich time
09:06<gamebuster>its nutella time
09:08<andythenorth>Pokka: got a video of that?
09:09<@Alberth>it was lost in the blast
09:10<andythenorth>I don't really want to convert these 32 spritelayouts to templated methods
09:10<andythenorth>shall we play a bit more?
09:11<Pokka>I think I'm winning
09:11<andythenorth>scuddles is winning surely?
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09:19<andythenorth>recessions need to go
09:20<andythenorth>along with inflation
09:20<Pokka>we have decided
09:20<Pokka>these are no longer features, they are now bugs
09:22<frosch123>we need a "boring andy" settings profile
09:23<frosch123>disabling inflation, recession, station rating, town rating, cargo aging, breakdowns, ...
09:23<frosch123>maybe also vehicle purchase?
09:25<Pokka>most of those things are either influencable or at least vaguely sensible, frosch123
09:26<Pokka>inflation and recession are just broken :)
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: date progressing
09:26<frosch123>good point eddi :)
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure i could come up with another few :)
09:30<andythenorth>normally recessions are 'gone' for me
09:30<frosch123>hmm, i think it was belugas who posted the "toot toot" concept
09:31<frosch123>ottd only needs a button in main gui to issue a train horn, and everyone would be happy
09:31<andythenorth>I have an ipad game like that
09:32<frosch123>yeah, i guess it fits the typical ipad user
09:33<frosch123>not necessarily by the physical appearance
09:33<frosch123>more the icon tichy type :)
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>so, why does simcity4 actually crash every 5 minutes?
09:40<frosch123>hmm, if you had said "simcity5" or "4 minutes" i might have had an idea
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09:54<andythenorth>slow ships are slow
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09:56<Markk>I am in the "Replace Train" dialogue, and I have the 2cc NGRW, but on two of three vehicles I currently have the flag (France in this case, if it matters) kind of blinks in the upper right corner.
09:56<Markk>With a little pixely black dot.
09:57<Markk>Any idea what it's about?
09:58<@Alberth>I have not, perhaps someone else has an idea
09:58<@peter1138>probably just a sprite that's too big
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: possibly a wrong colour used in the sprite
09:59<Markk>But I'm currently using three locomotives, and all of them are French for some reason, but there's only two flags that has this blinking dot.
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: there are special "blinking colours" e.g. for lighthouses/airports or water
09:59<Markk>Or were you referring to the locomotive itself?
09:59<@peter1138>maybe take a screenshot we don't have to guess
09:59<Markk>peter1138: I'll try!
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: sometimes they get into normal sprites by improper graphics editing/converting
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>if that is the case, you should post in the 2cc thread
10:01<@planetmaker>Markk, the sprites shown in the purchase list are one sprite which contains engine + flag. Thus if there it's possible that there's a wrong pixel with some engines and some not
10:07<Markk>You can see the black dot both in the list of vehicles that I have and in the list of possible vehicles.
10:09<@peter1138>sprites using the red-flashing colour meant for level-crossing
10:09<@planetmaker>I don't exactly. But you should report sprite problems to the related NewGRF. We can't do anything about it
10:10<@peter1138>does it in the purchase list
10:10<Markk>peter1138: Yes, it does.
10:10<@peter1138>that wasn't a question
10:10<Markk>But thanks for the answer!
10:10<@peter1138>weird how you call it a "dot" when it's obviously part of the shading
10:11<Markk>I sit too far from the screen to see the difference.
10:11<@planetmaker>if it's the black triangel in the upper rigth... yes
10:12<Markk>Oh, yes, it is.
10:12<Markk>Didn't see that before.
10:14<Markk>But guys, thank you all for the help!
10:14<Markk>I just didn't want to wonder if it was some sort of message that I needed to do something.
10:17<@peter1138>you do, you need to report the bug ;)
10:27<@Alberth>reporting problems you experience to the author is the way to get a better set
10:32<Markk>Yes, ofc. :)
10:32<Markk>I shall do that.
10:33<andythenorth>blah blah blah spritelayouts
10:39<NGC3982>Markk: What NewGRF contains the SJX2000?
10:40<Markk>2cc I think.
10:42<NGC3982>Oh? I haven't seen that in there.
10:42<NGC3982>Unless you changed the name :)
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10:44<Zuu__>Swedish Train set have X2000.
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10:45<Zuu__>Last time I checked it was the old blue livery.
10:45<NGC3982>How on earth did i miss that.
10:47<Zuu__>Though it would be quite boring if all trains would use the current grey livery :-s
10:49<andythenorth>ho ho
10:49*andythenorth does bad
10:58<NGC3982>How can i load a scenario with my own NewGRFs?
11:01<frosch123>you cannot
11:01<frosch123>a scenario is a scenario
11:01<frosch123>it's not a custom game
11:01<frosch123>you can load the scenario, save it as heightmap and then play that heightmap
11:01<frosch123>as in only using the "height" information
11:02<frosch123>but that's about it
11:03<andythenorth>would be nice if that was...different
11:03<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
11:03<NGC3982>Since, most scenarios i find does contain geographical features, but no NewGRFs related to that geographical feature.
11:04<NGC3982>Swedish train NewGRF's for a Swedish scenario, for instance. :)
11:04<NGC3982>But yes, i think i can fix that with your heightmap solution.
11:05<frosch123>you will loose town names and locations and such though
11:05<frosch123>but well, such things are just those things which depend on newgrf :)
11:05<frosch123>like swedish town names
11:08<andythenorth>I think I broke the concept of spriteset vs spritelayout
11:10<andythenorth>I am encoding offsets etc in the spriteset
11:10<andythenorth>for implementation reasons :P
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11:21<@peter1138>i'm recoding rgb recolours!
11:21<@peter1138>cos it's always better the second time around, right?
11:21<frosch123>isn't it the third time?
11:21<@peter1138>second i think...
11:21<@peter1138>or should it wait til the third?
11:22<frosch123>well, usually the important part is whether you call it "yet another ..."
11:23<frosch123>but i meant you were already doing it the third time
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11:30<fonsinchen>How do we continue with the cargodist trunk inclusion process? I've basically reimplemented the whole reservation thing, following Rubidium's criticism. I don't know if that was really necessary but it looks cleaner now and in the improved/full load case it doesn't deviate from the original intention anymore.
11:30<frosch123>i wanted to look at it, but i am not quite in an ottd mood recently
11:31<@peter1138>nah, this is second i'm sure
11:31<andythenorth>what implementation of FIRS am I on?
11:31<andythenorth>third? fourth?
11:42<Zuu__>fonsinchen: FYI, I just reivewed the OTTDAU <-> openttdcoop situation, and will make an attempt to support cargodist again by hardcoding the extra "/releases" string that is injected into the download URLs. That will however, probably not give or take anything with respect of getting it reviewed.
11:43<fonsinchen>Well, there's always stuff you can still change. With such a big chunk of code there'll never be perfection. At some point I suggest you should just say "it's good enough". It's very easy to fix small things like capitalization of comments if there is a stable base version in trunk. However, dragging around a long queue of interdependent patches and fixing a comma here and a bit of whitespace there is kind of annoying. Still I hav
11:43<fonsinchen>e fixed all the coding style stuff Rubidium has pointed out.
11:43<fonsinchen>Having a stable baseline version that doesn't need constant adjustment to trunk changes would also free some of my time for other improvements.
11:44<fonsinchen>Right now I don't want to work on those entries in my issue tracker because that would increase the amount of code to be maintained even more.
11:45<fonsinchen>I wouldn't want to do that on the "stable" version, but instead I'd create an experimental new branch for that.
11:46<frosch123>well, i only have the loading order thingie on my list
11:46<fonsinchen>What is the loading order thingie about?
11:46<frosch123>the thing we discussed most :)
11:47<frosch123>you might call it reservation
11:47<fonsinchen>Ah, OK. If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask me.
11:49<Zuu__>fonsinchen: Is there on github anything like viewing your patch queue?
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11:49<Zuu__>Eg. a list of patches/change sets in a sequential order.
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11:49<fonsinchen>Yes, that's the commits in the CD branch ...
11:50<Zuu__>So the oldest one is the first patch/change to apply to trunk?
11:51<fonsinchen>"old" is relative, though
11:51<Zuu__>I mean by the date displayed at github
11:51<fonsinchen>Date displayed at github is meaningless
11:52<fonsinchen>The list is in reverse order of "to be applied to trunk".
11:52<fonsinchen>(except for "saveload version naming" and "switch on by default" which is probably not to be applied)
11:55<Zuu__>So the item at the back is the first one to be reviewed? I keep clicking on "older" but it appears to have also SVN changesets mixed with your changes. Maybe you have already explained this or this is a concept of Git that differs from HG Queues, but I was hoping to get a clean list of patch 1, patch 2, patch 3 etc.
11:56<frosch123>Zuu__: the cdist stuff is just at the top
11:56<frosch123>it's just like what hg queues would give you
11:56<frosch123>the "real hg stuff" in the past, and the queue at the top
11:57<frosch123>you can tell where the "queue" starts by looking at the transition from "(svn rxxx)" commits to those without
11:57<Zuu__>Oh, right
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12:14<andythenorth>MP GS later?
12:14<andythenorth>anyone want to make a save?
12:15<NGC3982>I know that font,
12:16<NGC3982>Ah, it even linked to The Oatmeal
12:16<NGC3982>The Oatmeal <3.
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12:32<@peter1138>bbc news came on
12:32<@peter1138>and... there was no news, just the background music at full volume all the way through :p
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12:33<Eddi|zuHause>"it's sunday, nothing newsworthy happened"
12:33<Prof_Frink>peter1138: Apocalyptic rave?
12:34<NGC3982>That fire in brazil.
12:34<NGC3982>Might be ..worthy.
12:34*NGC3982 is completely out of context.
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13:11<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24944 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2013-01-27 18:11:16 UTC)
13:11<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5452]: Deleting implicit orders wasn't able to deal with the various side-effects of DeleteOrder.
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13:33<NGC3982>Regarding this picture; How does path finding work for trucks? For some reason, the trucks in the picture does not take a different route to the station, if the first one is "stopped".
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13:33<NGC3982>I guess that's how it should work? :-)
13:35<frosch123>the number of vehicles loading in a stop add to the path penalty
13:35<frosch123>if the truck is waiting at the back, then you have bad luck
13:36<NGC3982>I see.
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24945 /trunk/src/lang (5 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-27 18:45:29 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>hungarian - 3 changes by oklmernok
13:45<@DorpsGek>japanese - 42 changes by Aknuth
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 5 changes by wojteks86
13:45<@DorpsGek>slovenian - 1 changes by Necrolyte
13:45<@DorpsGek>tamil - 108 changes by aswn
13:59<@peter1138>orange and green should never be seen
13:59<@peter1138>except in my colour scheme :P
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14:17<@peter1138>hmm, doxygen missing in places
14:18<Zuu>NGC3982: If the entry is changed so that the shortest path guide the trucks to the centre loading bay, trucks will spread better.
14:18<NGC3982>Zuu: Yes, i noticed. I just changed it.
14:18<NGC3982>It was a bit of a trial-and-error procedure.
14:28<andythenorth>has anyone released FIRS 0.9 yet?
14:28<andythenorth>or will I have to do it :P
14:28<@Alberth>II have not seen anyone today
14:29<@peter1138>is it sunday?
14:29<@Alberth>unless he is undercover by a different name of course :p
14:29<@peter1138>doxygenated anyway
14:30<andythenorth>it is Sunday
14:31<andythenorth>maybe not in all timezones
14:32<@peter1138>service_interval is, imho, erroneously typed as Date
14:32<@peter1138>cos it contains either a %age or an interval in days
14:32<@peter1138>which isn't the same as a Date
14:33<@peter1138>if i change its type i can stuff a couple of bits high up
14:33<@peter1138>the value is already limited to 5-800 so 32 bits is massive :p
14:34<@peter1138>the original 16 bits was still more than needed, heh
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14:56<andythenorth>maybe I should implement stockpiling? o_O
14:58<@Alberth>I thought you decided stockpiling is a broken concept :p
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14:58<andythenorth>I don't mean limits
14:59<andythenorth>just gradual processing of delivered cargo
14:59<@Alberth>the ramp up of ECS looks quite nice imho
15:00<andythenorth>hrm, timetabling
15:00<andythenorth>and autorefit, both together
15:00<andythenorth>never done that before
15:01*andythenorth could use some timetable magic
15:01<andythenorth>space out vehicles evenly
15:02<Supercheese>There's a patch for that™
15:16<andythenorth>peter1138: we are winning
15:16<@peter1138>forgot i left it on :S
15:17<@peter1138>coding :p
15:18<@peter1138>$ bin/openttd -b 32bpp-anim
15:18<@peter1138>dbg: [misc] String too long for destination buffer
15:18<@peter1138>woops? :p
15:19<@peter1138>i guess it's cos i'm in a git branch
15:24*andythenorth should code
15:26<andythenorth>this FIRS Basic stuff is too easy :P
15:26<andythenorth>loads of easily connected industry chains
15:26<andythenorth>no brainfuck stuff :P
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15:27<Pyr0>i've been having issues make gbm to actually debugg mi code
15:27<Pyr0>I fear that the make script is not taking my "-g" flag, (i'm using eclipse)
15:28<Pyr0>when a launch debug I get the game running but I cannot see the source code
15:28<Pyr0>any ideas what I'm doing wrong?
15:29<+glx>you need to run "configure" with the right options
15:30<Pyr0>i'm not running "./configure"
15:30<andythenorth>funny thing about this port
15:31<andythenorth>looks just like a fishing harbour :P
15:31<+glx>it's needed to generate the Makefile
15:31<Supercheese>andythenorth: use seagulls to distinguish between them :P
15:31<frosch123>andythenorth: make change a fishing harbour to look more distrinct
15:31<frosch123>e.g. by covering it completely in a big pile of fish or so
15:32<Pyr0>do you know how can I run it from eclipse instead of console?
15:32<andythenorth>frosch123: good idea :)
15:32<frosch123>hmm, i wonder what i typed there
15:33<Pyr0>and which are the the right options for make it debuggeable
15:34<+glx>" --enable-debug[=LVL] enable debug-mode (LVL=[0123], 0 is release)"
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15:34<frosch123>Pyr0: you are probably better off running the configure script and only making eclipse execute the generated makefile
15:34<frosch123>don't try to make eclipse do any magic to the makefile
15:34<Pyr0>yeah that what I was afraid
15:35<Pyr0>i'll try that
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15:37<Pyr0>ok compiling now ...
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15:49<@peter1138>revised service interval patch
15:50<Pyr0>ok I was able to compile with debug but when it launches I get not available languages error
15:51<Pyr0>neither the "release" exe
15:52<frosch123>peter1138: do you really want to do this kind of bitstuffing?
15:52<frosch123>do you feel sentimental about ttdp? :p
15:52<Pyr0>does the enable-debug change the location of needed files or something like that?
15:52<@peter1138>frosch123, not fussed, it's abstracted anyway
15:52<@peter1138>frosch123, but service_interval being a date annoyed me
15:53<@peter1138>i don't think adding 2 bools is a good idea
15:53<frosch123>no, but a separate service_flags variable
15:54<frosch123>there is no reason to put in one
15:54<frosch123>you could just do two uint16 if you mind the space :p
15:55<@peter1138>SLE_FILE_I32 | SLE_VAR_U16?
15:55<frosch123>yeah, or just keep it uint32 and add a separate flags thignie
15:56<Zuu>peter1138: Maybe some english.txt strings need to be updated to reflect the changed behaviour?
15:56<@peter1138>tooltips, right
15:57<@Alberth>Pyr0: it deposits objects files in objs/debug instead of objs/release or so
15:57<Pyr0>instead of bin
15:58<Pyr0>but i don't know why it isn't finding the lang files
15:58<@Alberth>bin has the final binary, I think
15:58<Supercheese>new OTTD compiles should generate .lng files
15:59<frosch123>ctrl to toggle % and days :o
15:59<Pyr0>should I move the exe to bin instead of running it from objs/debug?
16:02<@peter1138>can be separate button
16:06<Pyr0>ok seems to be that all the files are missing from objs/debug
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16:07<@Alberth>bin/* environment contains lots of stuff that the binary needs
16:07<frosch123>hmm, i guess turning the "%"/"days" text into a button would look weird and break the plural
16:07<Pyr0>if I move it to bin everything is fine
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16:08<@peter1138>frosch123, it's always plural
16:08<frosch123>i am not sure how much space there is in the vehicle details
16:08<Pyr0>all the exes are in "debug mode"
16:08<frosch123>everything could be moved into a dropdown maybe
16:09<frosch123>peter1138: why? service interval "1 day" might be unusual, but other languages also have special forms for 101 and such
16:09<@peter1138>frosch123, it's not possible
16:09<Pyr0>ok back to my original problem :)
16:10<@peter1138>(i've no idea why it's in order_func.h
16:10<Pyr0>i have now the game running and the debug console
16:10<@peter1138>range for % is 5 to 90
16:10<@peter1138>range for days is 30 to 800
16:10<Pyr0>but eclipse can't find source files :(
16:10<@peter1138>and it goes up in 5s or 10s or something
16:10<Pyr0>i get the "../mingw/main.c" error instead of the source code where i'm stoped :(
16:10<@peter1138>but maybe you're right
16:10<@peter1138>there's probably some language with a weird plural for 0s
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16:12<Rubidium>peter1138: Korean has very weird "plurals"; the last digit determines the plural
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16:16<Supercheese>Hah, I got an animated icon into GRFcrawler:
16:16<Supercheese>(works on Firefox anyhow)
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16:17<Kimmey>i need some help
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16:18<Kimmey>how do i make an Server? :(
16:18<NGC3982>Kimmey: That depends on your current hardware, and software.
16:19<Kimmey>I opened Openttd.exe -D
16:19<NGC3982>In what? DOS?
16:19<Kimmey>nooo :P
16:20<NGC3982>A shortcut? ;)
16:20<NGC3982>And you did not exceed?
16:20<@peter1138>nor succeed
16:20<NGC3982>Sorry, succeed.
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16:20<Kimmey>i dont know the port and the ip -.-
16:20<NGC3982>They said "Exceed" in the Nostalgica Critic episode i'm watching.
16:20<NGC3982>The same scond.
16:21<@DorpsGek>NGC3982: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
16:21<NGC3982>Kimmey: As you can see, OpenTTD uses TCP/UDP port 3979 for server connections. Opening that in your router should do the trick.
16:22<NGC3982>As for your IP, there are serveral online services that can give you your own external IP address.
16:22<NGC3982> <- For instance.
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16:23<Kimmey>ok, i got my ip
16:23<@peter1138>right, so, fix the ctrl hidden function
16:23<@peter1138>fix the tooltips
16:24<@peter1138>and... split the flags
16:24<NGC3982>Kimmey: Yes, if your port is open, you should be able to connect.
16:25<andythenorth>FIRS compiles slow :( :( :(
16:25<NGC3982>Kimmey: You can always PM me the IP (and password, if configured), if you need someone to test it.
16:27<Kimmey>how do i use the Port :S
16:28<NGC3982>Kimmey: When connecting?
16:29<frosch123>peter1138: and doxygen :p
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16:29<NGC3982>Kimmey: When adding a server in the OpenTTD multiplayer window, you can write the address "ip-adress/host:port", or in example: "123.456.789:3979"
16:30<NGC3982>Kimmey: Where 123.456.789 is the IP, and 3979 the port.
16:30<Kimmey>where? :S
16:31<NGC3982>Kimmey: I am unable to show you a screenshot in English, but i guess you will understand:
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16:32<Supercheese>Whoops, there he goes
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16:32<Kimmey>help ?
16:32-!-Kimmey [] has quit []
16:33<andythenorth>flat docks
16:33<andythenorth>are not existing
16:33<NGC3982>Did he leave or something? I have ignore on part/join.
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16:33<Kimmey>any help here?
16:34<NGC3982>Kimmey: Yes, i tried to answer you.
16:34<Kimmey>du er fra sverige?
16:34<NGC3982>ja, det är jag. vill du diskutera på något annat språk än engelska får vi ta det i PM.
16:35<Kimmey>how do we do that?
16:35<NGC3982>I just sent you a private message.
16:35<NGC3982>In your Ajax IRC client, you should have a new box with my name on it.
16:36<Kimmey>got it :D
16:41<andythenorth>industry probabilities seem to be screwy
16:42<andythenorth>found the cause :P
16:42<Kjetil>wow. 1.5 minutes
16:43<Supercheese>90 seconds ... to what?
16:44<Kjetil>andythenorth's fix
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16:55<NGC3982>By experiment, i guess it's time to advertise to the master server.
16:56*NGC3982 goes public with his OpenTrainuality.
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16:57<Supercheese>Hmm good question on the forum about rivers: "Is there a patch or grf that can alter the width of the rivers generated on maps? If it would start to widen the rivers as they got to the towards the edge of a map that would be great..."
16:57<andythenorth>been asked a bzillion times :P
16:57<andythenorth>by me
17:00<andythenorth>diagonal canals / rivers
17:00<andythenorth>I could draw them :P
17:00<Supercheese>Would require new code in FlowRiver in landscape.cpp, if I'm not mistaken
17:00<Supercheese>Fake them with newobjects :P
17:01<Supercheese>diagonal tiles to place around the ugly "zig-zag" non-diagonal water tiles
17:01<Supercheese>I'd code them :)
17:01<andythenorth>just do it for real :P
17:02<Supercheese>Well, my offer stands
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17:19<NGC3982>Can i use ,.-'??+ chars in server_name, when altering config?
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17:22<NGC3982>And, can someone please tell me where Kimmey went.
17:22*NGC3982 facepalms.
17:22<Kimmey>im here :D
17:22<Supercheese>He just left & rejoined
17:22<NGC3982>Ah, great.
17:22<NGC3982>Kimmey: Let's contiue.
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17:35<@peter1138>right, dropdown coded
17:35<@peter1138>no more ctrl
17:35<@peter1138>now... separate var ... :S
17:45<Kimmey>This is an amazing game ! :D
17:45<Supercheese>Indeed :)
17:47<FLHerne>Kimmey: Of course it is. Tried excessive NewGRFs yet? :P
17:49<Supercheese>Excessive GRFs:
17:52<@peter1138>all those slots wasted with separators
17:52<confound>Supercheese: that is too many
17:52<Supercheese>Slots wasted? I increased the limit :P
17:52<FLHerne>Supercheese: Mine was like that, until I realised how few I actually used normally :P
17:52<FLHerne>Supercheese: MP sync?
17:52<Supercheese>and that's an old list, I've changed/added/removed some
17:52<Supercheese>I don't multiplayer
17:53<Supercheese>don't play*
17:53<Supercheese>Besides, it'd be terrible to try and read the list without the separators
17:53<@Terkhen>good night
17:54<Supercheese>Hmm, I guess there's one or two in there I don't use...
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17:55<Supercheese>I don't actually fly hot air balloons normally, and I don't much use some of the smaller object sets
17:56<NGC3982>FLHerne: Don't teach him anything new i later have to support.
17:57<Supercheese>but I do use most of them, if my game lasts long enough anyway (if I stop early some of the future grfs don't get used)
17:59<NGC3982>Kimmey: I notice that you are running a 2048*2048 map on your server. Without proper configuration, your players will have som difficulty playing without connection issues.
17:59<NGC3982>Kimmey: I suggest using a smaller map until you get your configuration issues solved. ;)
18:01<Kimmey>suggest how big?
18:01<NGC3982>A 1024*512 should be a decent big map to start of with.
18:06<Kimmey>i have change it :)
18:08<Kimmey>any other settings i have to change?
18:10<@peter1138>ok, changes pushed
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18:13<Wolf01>'night all
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21:17<Supercheese>bleh, I hate that I have no idea how hot 50°C is
21:17<Supercheese>friggin' everything is in Fahrenheit here, though :(
21:17<Supercheese>128°F, that I know
21:19<Supercheese>53°C, rather
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23:28<Flygon>Supercheese: 50c is pretty darned hot
23:28<Flygon>I can say that as an Australian :B
23:29<Supercheese>I was doing homework for my engineering class, that was the final temperature of a pipe surface I calculated. Well, it ended up being in Kelvin, but they wanted the answer in Celsius
23:30<Supercheese>of course I don't think in Kelvin nor Celsius, so I also had to convert to °F
---Logclosed Mon Jan 28 00:00:23 2013