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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-29

---Logopened Tue Jan 29 00:00:25 2013
00:08<Supercheese>FIRS Steel Mills appear to produce Livestock and Grain
00:09<Supercheese>that's soooome alchemy
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01:36<Flygon>Mazda is advertising that, in a world first, they invented brakes that use the energy generated, stored in a capacitor, to help accelerate the car again
01:36<Flygon>Must be one hell of a car from 1930
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01:43<@peter1138>we could be heroes
01:46<Kjetil>Flygon: now. If only they could create a car with an electric starter
01:46<Flygon>Kjetil: Electric starters are worthless. All cars should be steam powered.
01:46<Flygon>No need to even light he boiler, just use the compressed air tank!
01:47<Flygon>Best, car, ever
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01:48<Pikka>your mother could be heroes, peter1138
01:48<Kjetil>unstalable car <3
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02:01<Supercheese>Friggin vehicle introduction date randomization
02:01<Supercheese>that needs to be disableable
02:01<@peter1138>FRIGGIN IN THE RIGGIN
02:01<@peter1138>COS THERE FECK ALL ELSE TO DO
02:03<Pikka>innit though
02:04<Supercheese>Hmm, where is that controlled
02:06<Pikka>here's an idea
02:07<Pikka>add it to the newgrf specs as a vehicle flag
02:07<Pikka>then put a bug report on flyspray that it doesn't work :D
02:07<Supercheese>engine.cpp it looks like
02:13<@peter1138>what's more useful, fixed intro date or engine dependencies?
02:13<@peter1138>fixed intro date is rather simpler to do
02:14<@peter1138>but we like randomised dates :D
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02:16<Supercheese>Well, a disable_randomization flag and/or engine dependencies should happen sometime
02:16<@peter1138>do it then
02:16<Supercheese>I guess I should look at other parts of the code to see how newgrf flags interact
02:16<@peter1138>cool stuff
02:17<Supercheese>Hmm, other flags...
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02:17<Supercheese>breakdown smoke, that one looks relevant
02:20<Supercheese>augh, ternary operator
02:21<Supercheese>If (true) then stuff_before_colon, else stuff_after_colon?
02:26<Supercheese>Huh, defining a new flag only involves 2 files?
02:28<Supercheese>engine_type.h and engine.cpp it seems
02:29<Supercheese>Hmm, now to figure out how to set it in a GRF
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02:30<@peter1138>you're lucky, there's only a single bit free
02:30<Supercheese>0..7 eh
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02:34<Supercheese>Ironically, I seem to be having an easier time modifying OTTD to accept the flag than modifying a grf to set the flag
02:35<Supercheese>likely because I don't understand NFO
02:35<@peter1138>action 0
02:35<@peter1138>the property differs depending on vehicle type, unfortunately
02:35<@peter1138>blame patchman :p
02:36<Supercheese>Yeah, bit 0 means different things it seems
02:36<Supercheese>tilting trains or RV_is_tram
02:36<@planetmaker>every bit is different usually
02:36<@planetmaker>good morning also
02:36<Supercheese>Breakdown smoke is common
02:36<@planetmaker>yes. it's the newest ;-)
02:38<Supercheese>Pffff, grfcodec won't decode my grf
02:38<@peter1138>let me guess, you've got a sound effect in there?
02:39<Supercheese>I think all my grfs have custom sounds...
02:39<Supercheese>except those separators, those aren't even real grfs though :P
02:39<@peter1138>i couldn't unpack one
02:39<@peter1138>but i can't remember what
02:42<Supercheese>Hmm, most recent NML nightly hasn't built
02:43<@planetmaker>nightly, you know. 17:17 CET
02:43<@planetmaker>nightly != head :-)
02:44<Supercheese>timezones @_@
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02:44<@planetmaker>I'd say: in 9 hours it should be there
02:45<@planetmaker>do you need it like now?
02:45<Supercheese>Nah, just noticed
02:45<Supercheese>I'm slogging through the NFO
02:45<Supercheese>It's not *completely* gibberish :P
02:46<Supercheese>This grf spec page makes no sense
02:46<Supercheese>That's supposed to be a bitmask, values go 1,2,4,8,16,32...
02:47<Supercheese>but they go 1,2,4,8,10,20,40...?
02:47<Supercheese>am I misunderstanding something?
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02:51<@peter1138>i suppose i should either report that bug
02:51<@peter1138>or fix it :p
02:51<Supercheese>Eh, all the cool kids use NML anyway
02:51<Supercheese>so what if it doesn't support bridges or stations :P
02:52-!-Celestar_ is now known as Celestar
02:54<Flygon>Speaking of Bridges and Stations
02:54<Flygon>One of the worst things I've done in OpenTTD is add more platforms to a station in the middle of a city
02:54<Flygon>That also has a crapload of Trams and Buses
02:54<Flygon>And bridges
02:54<Flygon>And Trams and Buses going across those bridges
02:59<Flygon>And yet I've managed to get room for another platform...
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03:11<Flygon>Urg... run out of room to expand
03:11<Flygon>Can't wait for OpenTTD to have multilayer support
03:11<Supercheese>Subways eh
03:12<Dr_Tan>they say that won't ever happen
03:12<@peter1138>i think you're going to have to
03:12<Supercheese>not gonna happen soon, probably
03:13<Flygon>I'll need to wait til 2038 then
03:14<Flygon>It's a shame, it's a very needed feature
03:14-!-Dr_Tan is now known as Nat_aS
03:15<Supercheese>No feature is needed, OTTD is luxury, everything is wanted
03:15<@peter1138>it's always amazing how so few people are born with the ability to code
03:15<Flygon>I tried to code once
03:15<Flygon>And then lots of times
03:15<Flygon>None of it was good
03:15<Supercheese>well to be fair, adding a NO_RANDOM_INTRO_DATE flag is nothing compared to multilayer map array
03:15<Pikka>Supercheese, I agree, bitmasks are so much easier in decimal than in hex D;
03:16<Supercheese>Hmm, the NML code and the actual game years seem to be off by 1
03:17<Flygon>(ironically, I did great at a Java course at Uni. Only problem is, it's Java)
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03:20<Supercheese>Waaait, is NFO big or little-endian
03:20<Pikka>peter1138, it's only relatively recently that computers have become small enough to fit in the womb
03:20<@peter1138>Supercheese, little
03:21<Supercheese>Sooo, I have to read Wides backwards
03:21<Supercheese>or Words
03:21<@peter1138>not too hard
03:22<Flygon>Pikka: Are you suggesting Borg babies?
03:22*NGC3982 assimilates Pikka
03:23<Pikka>you can use the wx escape to write words forwards, supercheese
03:23<Pikka>likewise dx for dubbleverdz
03:24<Supercheese>I'll stick to NML, I'm just trying to add a new misc_flag and being forced to muck around with NFO :P
03:24<@peter1138>hmm, so mb cites programmable signals and through-pbs signals
03:24<@peter1138>as far as i can tell, both those features are pointless with ottd-style path signals
03:24<Pikka>mb's a dude
03:25<Nat_aS>i'm not sure, if I'd rather have layered maps or better cargodistribution
03:26<@peter1138>why either/or?
03:26<Supercheese>which first, which second probably
03:26<Nat_aS>and wondering what everyone else's most wanted pipedream feature is
03:27<Nat_aS>what would you guys like to have somebody else do all the work implementing
03:27<NGC3982>Is there a web entry on what mathematics are used to calculate the number of breakdowns due to reliability?
03:30<Supercheese>Seems the flag I added works
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03:31<@peter1138>NGC3982, not really, it's a counter than increases, but can jump, and a lookup table
03:31<NGC3982>I see.
03:31<Supercheese>Hmm, it seems like the GRF says "introduce in year 2000" but in-game it's really 2001
03:31<Supercheese>I wonder where that year is coming from...
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03:32<Pikka>here comes one now
03:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: +1 to locking that thread thanks
03:32<andythenorth>oh it's pikka
03:32<andythenorth>how rare
03:32<Pikka>tres rare
03:32<Supercheese>also, I don't really know when parenthesis are needed and when they aren't
03:33<Supercheese>I just placed lots :P
03:33<@planetmaker>moin :-) rarities :D
03:33<andythenorth> an idea for UKRS2....
03:33<Pikka>I must hie me anon to dinner at parentals
03:33<Pikka>an idea is it?
03:33<andythenorth>pikka's have parents?
03:33*andythenorth is parents
03:33<andythenorth>bit weird when you make that switch
03:34<Pikka>it's not a switch, is it
03:34<Pikka>even if you are parents you have parents
03:34<andythenorth>logically yes
03:34<andythenorth>but it's a bit mental
03:34<andythenorth>before you wasn't parents
03:34<andythenorth>then you is parents
03:34<andythenorth>very strange
03:34<V453000>andythenorth: I wants steel sheepies, cowies and piggies back!
03:35<Pikka>no trollish ideas, then?
03:35<V453000>I can supply sprites? :D
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03:35*Pikka steals sheppies, coobeasties and piglets back
03:35<andythenorth>should just make up some things for UKRS2
03:36<Pikka>yes you should
03:36<andythenorth>instead of looking for obscure prototpaypals
03:36<Pikka>I look forward to seeing them when I return of the king
03:36<@peter1138>return of the mac
03:36-!-Pikka [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
03:36<andythenorth>mine never left
03:36<@peter1138>oh, it's mack
03:36<andythenorth>except when the sata cable broke
03:37<andythenorth>like a mack truck
03:38<andythenorth>oh won't you come back?
03:39<andythenorth>why can't simuscape things be discussed on simuscape?
03:39<andythenorth>it's just a fricking forum
03:39<andythenorth>register, go discuss there
03:39<Supercheese>they're too busy freaking out
03:39<andythenorth>it's like tt-forums is some kind of meta-discussion site about the other site
03:39<Supercheese>over non-issues :S
03:39<@peter1138>mark morrison paid a look-alike to perform his community service
03:40<@peter1138>(mark morrison == return of the mack)
03:40<andythenorth>I'd suggest a ban on discussing simuscape meta-issues, but then someone will turn that into a drama
03:40<@peter1138>i'd ban 'sacsac'
03:40<andythenorth>it was quite funny trolling
03:40<andythenorth>at first
03:40<andythenorth>now it's boring
03:40<@peter1138>obviously some regular deciding to stir up shit
03:40<Supercheese>Simuscape ≡ drama
03:41<andythenorth>Supercheese: not really, not inside simuscape anyway
03:41<andythenorth>it's all a happy place
03:41*Supercheese shrugs
03:41<@peter1138>only because nobody uses their grfs
03:41<@planetmaker>I gave that person a good straight down in private. We shall see
03:42<V453000>andythenorth: because 99% registered people have solved with captcha :D ... nobody talking about 80% of all people who havent solved the captcha
03:42<andythenorth>I managed it
03:42<andythenorth>I'm not the smartest
03:42<V453000>yeah that sacsac person is wtf
03:43<Supercheese>oh fuck me, was there already a patch to do this?
03:43<@planetmaker>to do what?
03:43<Supercheese>new misc_flag to disable intro date randomization
03:43<Supercheese>I didn't check flyspray before coding
03:43<@planetmaker>ah oh. dunno :-)
03:43<@planetmaker>make it decent :D
03:44<Supercheese>I fixed trailing whitespace, N++ should have Ctrl+S set to "Trim trailing whitespace and save" by default, rather than making me do it
03:44<Supercheese>me rebind the hotkey*
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03:46<Supercheese>Hmm, preview business, hadn't considered that
03:47<Supercheese>existing patch is similar, but has some weird stuff
03:48<@planetmaker>FS#, Supercheese ?
03:49<Supercheese>The patch there does some weird stuff with the bitmask enums
03:50<NGC3982>peter1138: To clarify, i was exploring if breakdowns could be calculable, but i guess it's ment to be random enough to prevent that. :-)
03:52<@planetmaker>NGC3982, they are as random as computers can random
03:53<@planetmaker>it works like having a reliability. And a random number is generated, say 0...100. That is compared to the actual reliability. If number > actual reliability ---> break down
03:53<@planetmaker>and the reliability is decremented frequently. And set to the vehicle's max during servicing
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03:58<NGC3982>I see.
03:58<NGC3982>How efficient :).
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04:00<@peter1138>planetmaker, read the code ;)
04:02<@planetmaker>peter1138, I know. it's not 0...100. And there's a translation in the decrement
04:02<@planetmaker>but that doesn't help to explain it quickly
04:03<@planetmaker>or do you want to say I describe it conceptually wrong? I think not
04:05<@peter1138>there's an additional step
04:06<@peter1138>right, should i use 504E or 1138 for making newgrfs?
04:08<Supercheese>PETE ? :P
04:08<@planetmaker>PET\0 :D
04:09<@peter1138>already used 504E for a couple
04:09<@planetmaker>how lame. you should change ;-)
04:10<@peter1138>to CA?
04:10<NGC3982>planetmaker, peter1138: I think i understand what point was made, 0-100 or not.
04:10<@peter1138>just look in vehicle.cpp :-)
04:12<NGC3982>What language is this? It reminds me of my (short) time with C#.
04:12<NGC3982>And also, i love the elaborated comments.
04:13<TinoDidriksen>C++ should remind you of C#, as C# was designed as a mix of C++ and Java.
04:13<NGC3982>So ..It's C++?
04:13<TinoDidriksen>.cpp is, yes.
04:13<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
04:14<TinoDidriksen>(some use .cc or .cxx or even .c++ for insane people)
04:20<Supercheese>Oh hmm, I'm not sure I'm allowed to distribute my example grf
04:21<Supercheese>and grfcodec seems to hate all my other grfs
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04:23<@peter1138>why does mb always put quotes around waypoints?
04:23<Supercheese>scare quotes
04:27<Supercheese>Ok, new example grf
04:31<Supercheese>Whew, think I'm done for the night, time for sleep
04:31<Supercheese>Valete omnes
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04:47<@peter1138>and now we know: large maps are unpopular
04:50<NGC3982>In MP?
04:52<@peter1138>THE CHAIN
04:52<@peter1138>solo bit at the end, woo
04:52<@peter1138>instrumental bit i mean
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05:00<@peter1138>meh, cba to argue with mb
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05:46<andythenorth>la la la la
05:48<andythenorth>off-topic :)
05:58<NGC3982>Yes, how can i help you.
05:58<NGC3982>That seems to be a fitting nickname.
05:59<Flygon>More offtopic
06:00<Flygon> Chinese invent what Spaceballs predicted
06:01<NGC3982>The poluting situation in China is horrendous.
06:01<NGC3982>It's a disgrace.
06:02<__ln__>yeah, think about the pandas.
06:04<Flygon>Poor Pandas :(
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>i've heard these exact same stories about japan 20 years ago...
06:08<Flygon>Except Japan has motivation to become efficient
06:09<Flygon>China's... not so much
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>there have been smog catastrophes all over europe in the 1950s
06:18<NGC3982>My problem is that a government can look at it and go "Eh, we've got better things to do."
06:19<andythenorth>"Something Must be Done"
06:19<andythenorth>but where to start?
06:19<andythenorth>child mortality?
06:19<andythenorth>clean drinking water?
06:19<andythenorth>air pollution?
06:20*andythenorth back to work
06:20<NGC3982>Yes, that is true.
06:21<andythenorth>still, have to start somewhere
06:21<@peter1138>work... or secret project...
06:22<andythenorth>if hitting 'refresh' on redmine is 'work' then I'm working
06:22<NGC3982>Uhm, redmine..
06:22<NGC3982>FIRS should have more mineral mines.
06:22<NGC3982>Like copper.
06:23<NGC3982>So we can deliver plumbing to towns.
06:23*NGC3982 nods.
06:23<andythenorth>all out of cargos
06:23<andythenorth>enough is enough
06:23<@peter1138>dynamic cargos!
06:23<@peter1138>cargo pool!
06:23<NGC3982>More cargo! More cargo!
06:34<Flygon>I'm not sure Australia had smog problems ever
06:34<andythenorth>fire smoke?
06:34<Flygon>Melbourne has had huge fog, dust storm, rain, and... other problems
06:34<Flygon>Fire smoke is localized and outside of cities
06:35<Flygon>Melbourne can literally pump water from the ocean at fires
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06:52<@planetmaker>calc 24000 / 75
08:05<Bad_Brett>a question guys... I'm going to do some rather high ships. It will probably look really weird when they pass under bridges. if they are used to collect sea-based resources near the map edge, it might not happen som frequently, but still... any suggestions? cutting the height is not an option as I see it
08:05<__ln__>cover your eyes
08:06<andythenorth>overlook it
08:06<andythenorth>I have at least one with that problem
08:06<Pinkbeast>Any ship big enough to look good as a ship already looks Silly going around canal corners - don't sweat it.
08:08<Bad_Brett>ok thanks!
08:08<andythenorth>or draw smaller ships
08:08<andythenorth>ymmv :P
08:09<Pinkbeast>I'm pretty sure some FISH ships are a tight fit around the corners. :-P
08:10<andythenorth>totally fucked tbh
08:10<andythenorth>and in locks
08:11<V453000>put ships on rails!
08:11<V453000>fixes everything
08:11<Bad_Brett>hmm... it would be nice if it was possible to prevent bigger ships from entering canals and rivers
08:12<V453000>omfg how about having rails which look like water
08:13<V453000>fuck this could be awesome
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08:13<V453000>NUTS2 in progress...
08:13<+michi_cc>Bad_Brett: You can have different speeds for sea and canals/rivers which YAPF will consider when choosing a route (can't totally prevent it though).
08:13<Pikka>where are the FISH sailing ships? :)
08:13*Pikka thinks navigations would still be better coded as a roadtype
08:14<Pinkbeast>I think canal boats are a more pressing omission given that the existing Sailing Ships grf
08:14<Pinkbeast>Er that sentence no verb but YKWIM
08:16<Bad_Brett><michi_cc> yes of course! I set canal_speed_fraction to a really low value on the bigger ships
08:16<Bad_Brett>and the opposite for smaller ships
08:16<Bad_Brett>that will certainly prevent some of the silliness
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08:56<NGC3982>I can't seem to find any information on this. In the Swedish Trains (7.2) NewGRF, some engines are invisible. I do not know if it's on purpose or local issue.
09:04<@peter1138>report it?
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09:14<NGC3982>I'm about too.
09:14<NGC3982>I just have to re-install and re-check the current version.
09:36<Flygon>There's a trainset for every country but South America, Middle-East, and Oceania
09:36<Flygon>Which means that 70% of the world lacks a trainset :B
09:40<@planetmaker>2ccTS has trains from all three
09:42<V453000>there is even a trainset from another universe
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09:47<NGC3982>But not yet a Tron-set!
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09:53<NGC3982>I seriosly believe that a Tron map type, scenario, music and NewGRF would be So fun.
09:53<NGC3982>I wish i had the will to create it.
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>a slight recolouring of the Nyan tail would probably make for a decent tron-bike-thingie :p
09:54<V453000>omg :D
09:54<NGC3982>Actually, most of the NUTS maglev/monorail engines look like decent models for a Tron NewGRF
09:54<NGC3982>With a darker color palette.
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10:04<V453000>track_overlay is what shows on bridges?
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10:06<V453000>well yeah im reading that
10:06<@peter1138>06 - bridge surfaces, i would assume
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10:07<V453000>oh :o
10:07<V453000>I will see what I can do :)
10:12<@peter1138>you wanted to draw non-overlayed junctions didn't you?
10:13<Pikka>I wanted the possibility to have single-sprite junctions, yes
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>one sprite for the whole junction, i.e. 2^6 sprites?
10:13<Pikka>"I wanted to draw" is a bit strong :)
10:13<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, basically yes
10:14<Pikka>I'd sooner have roadtypes!
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>especially for switches this would be useful, to ommit this weird triangle-trackbase
10:14<@peter1138>i can do this much quicker :p
10:15<@peter1138>basically it means adding a flag
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: if you are at it, define the diagonal-rail-crossing-overlay sprites (+4 to the crossing overlay) :)
10:15<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, separate feature
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10:42<NGC3982>This is a bit embarrasing. I have been using FIRS for so long, i can't seem to get normal industries running again.
10:43<NGC3982>I tried smaller trains (and multiple stations) to get production to increase, with more gold being transported from the station.
10:43<@peter1138>naturally placed, eh?
10:43<NGC3982>Founded, of course.
10:48<NGC3982>What am i missing?
10:49<@peter1138>what's the problem?
10:49<@peter1138>you're assuming that gold production is high?
10:50<NGC3982>According to the Wiki, there should be a 83% chanse of production increase for the mines with >80% transported.
10:51<NGC3982>And that does not happend, thus i wonder what i am missing.
10:51<@planetmaker>NGC3982, firs != default industries
10:51<NGC3982>Yes, i know. Read again.
10:51<@planetmaker>so your assumption of when an industry increases based on wiki is...irrelevant to how FIRS behaves
10:52<@planetmaker>oh... normal as in not using FIRS. I mis-understood that :D
10:52<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: er but he says "I can't seem to get normal industries running again"
10:52<NGC3982>planetmaker: :P
10:52<@planetmaker>like normal FIRS industries and fancy firs industries. whatever :-P
10:52<@peter1138>NGC3982, why would you belece the wiki?
10:52<NGC3982>I guess i'm not understanding the Wiki or something, since production does not increase from it's original state (when founded), but only seems to go down (and up to normal again), despite me having excellent service and >80% transported.
10:53<NGC3982>peter1138: What does "belece" mean?
10:53<@peter1138>NGC3982, why would you believe the wiki?
10:53<@peter1138>are you using smooth ecomony?
10:53<NGC3982>It's not like i have any alternatives.
10:53<NGC3982>Let's see
10:54<V453000>NGC3982: just note that the production probably increases a lot slower than with FIRS
10:54<NGC3982>It's on.
10:54<V453000>rest is service industries, done
10:55<NGC3982>V453000: I thought that too, but i notice that no difference (at all) is made after 30 game years.
10:55<@peter1138>if over 60% is transported, 33% of *decrease*
10:55<@peter1138>if over 80% is transport, 16% of decrease
10:55<@peter1138>4.5% chance of 3-23% increase
10:56<NGC3982>I think i succeeded (a bit) by letting the first station use Full load orders, and the the other station Load if available orders.
10:56<@peter1138>33% chance of decrease, even
10:56<V453000>how fast trains do you have NGC3982
10:56<NGC3982>peter1138: Yes, so i noticed.
10:56<NGC3982>V453000: Monorail, 400-ish km/h.
10:56<@peter1138>so "83% chance of increase for 80% transported" is... uh... what?
10:56<V453000>I know that for example with original trains the increase is for a long time not too significant, but when station ratings increase with the 200kmh+ trains, it skyrockets quickly
10:57<NGC3982>peter1138: Hopefully more than 0% increase in production over 30 years, right?
10:57<NGC3982>V453000: I see.
10:57<V453000>idk, it is possible that some industries arent growing too much even for 30 years
10:57<V453000>how many do you have connected
10:58<NGC3982>Since i noticed a small change directly after my order changes, ill let this run for a few years and see what happends.
10:58<V453000>do you have a train always loading at the station?
10:58<V453000>sounds fine
10:58<@peter1138>NGC3982, 4.5% chance of a small increase... not huge :p
10:59<V453000>oooh, gold mines
10:59<V453000>think gold tends to increase less, but I am not sure there
10:59<NGC3982>peter1138: I know, but at least it's something.
10:59<V453000>I did have 2295 gold mines too, so ..
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11:29<NGC3982>Seriosly, Andy Dick in Star Trek.
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11:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's just a slight variation of japanese soldiers isolated on some islands who never got notice of the war having ended
11:45<__ln__>i don't know if requires being isolated from society to be unaware of WW II... just ask modern day teenagers and young adults.
11:46<NGC3982>Welcome to Sweden, we don't teach our kids anything BUT WWII.
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11:47<NGC3982>Nonody knows how Pol Pot, Mussolini or Edwin Hubble is.
11:47<__ln__>Umm, wasn't Mussolini part of WW II?
11:48<NGC3982>Does not matter, he was not jewish and was not killed in Auswitch.
11:48<NGC3982>The Swedish school system has since the war teached a biased anti Nazi agenda.
11:49<NGC3982>Teaching kids not to be nazis might be good, but the agenda neglects equally important historical events.
11:49<NGC3982>Stalin, for instance.
11:53<__ln__>Some years ago #elsewhere a Unitedstatesian person was saying that a lot of people in the US think that WW II was about Americans allying with Germans to fight the Soviets.
11:53<Pinkbeast>Well, it could have turned out that way.
11:54<NGC3982>Well, during the Cold war it might have.
11:55<Pinkbeast>No, I mean I think it's entirely plausible that the war in the 40s might have been that way with effective German diplomacy.
11:55<Pinkbeast>Presumably leaving Japan as a Soviet ally on a "my enemy's enemy" principle and China... confused.
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12:01<Eddi|zuHause>in the US there were certainly supporters of germany, especially in the early days of the war
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>the Soviet Union was officially neutral to Japan except for the very last phase of the war
12:03<NGC3982>I short: They ale ate poop and the only positive thing with the war was that nobody wanted to do such thing again.
12:03<__ln__>so far
12:03<NGC3982>Well, we are living in the most peaceful times of human history.
12:03<NGC3982>The popular notion of everything going down the tubes is illogical and wrong.
12:04<andythenorth>don't jinx it eh?
12:04<andythenorth>but +1
12:04*NGC3982 wages war against Suomi.
12:04<andythenorth>possibly people conflate their own "omg I'm going to die" with "everything gets worse"
12:04<andythenorth>or they miss their childhood or something
12:04<NGC3982>I do.
12:04<andythenorth>and bury themselves in nostalgia
12:05<andythenorth>like playing old games
12:05<NGC3982>I usually try to point that out when people born before the seventees say "It was better before", that they can always wage a new Cold War if they want too.
12:06<NGC3982>Yes, seventies.
12:06<NGC3982>Seven t-shirts.
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>"it was better before" is a well researched effect of bad memories fading faster than good memories
12:08*andythenorth can remember all the bad things
12:08<andythenorth>obsessive weirdo
12:08<__ln__>and if it includes the "when i was young, we didn't have ..." part, it's also the effect of ignoring that older people's life wasn't as luxurious either back then.
12:10<NGC3982>That, though, is hard to explain to people like that.
12:10<NGC3982>People that want cheese to their drink.
12:10<NGC3982>So to speak.
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12:32<andythenorth>hi hi
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12:38<@planetmaker>hey ho :-)
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12:49<@peter1138>chips platforms are asymmetric
12:51<andythenorth>I wasn't very diligent
12:51<andythenorth>and then I screwed with them so they fit pikka's tracks
12:51<andythenorth>they're broken for other railtypes
12:51<andythenorth>but meh
12:51<@peter1138>6 on the north
12:51<@peter1138>5 on the south
12:51<@peter1138>or 12/10
12:51<@peter1138>depending how you count :p
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12:53<@peter1138>not that i'm stealing them
12:54<@peter1138>could do with one that looks like wood
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12:55<Eddi|zuHause>wooden platforms?
12:57<V453000>Q: can two neighbouring rails between them be coded so that they do not have grass in the middle, but yes on the outsides?
12:57<V453000>like when you have rails next to each other, there is grass only outside of the railway
12:57<V453000>not anywhere among the rails
12:58<V453000>similarly to how fences work
12:58<V453000>no fences inside, no grass inside
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>make the groundsprite dirt, and put the grass into the fence sprite?
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>may be tricky, because the fence is reused on both sides
12:59<V453000>I thought about that, but fences often appear away from the actual rails
12:59<V453000>hm that too
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>then i fear it's not possible without a 40+ variable that checks the neighbouring tiles
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13:01<V453000>which isnt there for railtypes right
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>but it would be needed for curvy rail and stuff
13:03<@peter1138>wood platforms see
13:04<@peter1138>although i don't want it in black & white
13:04<@peter1138>not particularly wild-west
13:05<andythenorth>TTD style wood would be like the log cabin
13:05<andythenorth>or the sawmill
13:05<andythenorth>not realistic
13:05<andythenorth>but woody
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13:08<@peter1138>well that's ... logs
13:08<@peter1138>not sawn
13:09<andythenorth>that, but on the ground
13:09<andythenorth>so differently lit
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13:26<@peter1138>not that i'm doing anything with stations
13:26<@peter1138>who the feck designed this spec? :S
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13:32<NGC3982>My word.
13:32*NGC3982 eats __ln__.
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13:33<andythenorth>hmm diagonal canals
13:34<andythenorth>shall I just fricking draw them, and hope?
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13:34<@Alberth>moin andy, Wolf01
13:34<@peter1138>code them as objects ;)
13:34<@peter1138>i guess objects don't allow vehicles on them
13:34<andythenorth>ships can't drive over objects :P
13:35<@peter1138>should be possible!
13:35<andythenorth>water objects
13:36<@peter1138>track bit callback
13:39<Supercheese>peter1138: code them as objects -- that's what I offered to do for andy, but nooooo
13:41<andythenorth>it's just technical debt
13:41<andythenorth>short term gain that will have to be paid off with real code later
13:42<Supercheese>well, the graphics would exist, surely that's a plus, no?
13:44<Supercheese>frosch seems to be very much against disabling intro date randomizing...
13:45<Supercheese>I've made my arguments...
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13:45<frosch123>randomness is the core of every game
13:45<Supercheese>and they're not related to introducing vehicle sets simultaneously
13:45<@planetmaker>Supercheese, ^
13:46<@planetmaker>so the point should be: make vehicles available together which need be
13:46<Supercheese>Not like it would disable randomization for *every* vehicle
13:46<Supercheese>just those with historical importance (or whatever other reason the grf author decides)
13:46<frosch123>planetmaker: he was about introducing stuff historically correct
13:46<@planetmaker>that'd be inevitably be the result of the "disable randomization newgrf"
13:46<Supercheese>What on Earth is wrong with that?
13:46<frosch123>that's the only reason actually why i did not close it directly
13:46<V453000>I also agree that only vehicles introducing each other would be great to have, but other than that the random is fine
13:46<@planetmaker>frosch123, or that, defining an order of introduction
13:46<Supercheese>I don't really like the randomization
13:46<frosch123>though i wonder why he did not ask to disable randomisation of lifetimes as well :p
13:47<Supercheese>other people might not like it
13:47<Supercheese>why not let people disable it if they want, others can not disable it if they want?
13:47<frosch123>Supercheese: play chess then
13:47<frosch123>chess has no random
13:47<frosch123>that's why some people do not consider it a game
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13:47<Supercheese>Just because some people don't like it is a lame argument IMO
13:47<frosch123>and others consider it sports :)
13:48<Supercheese>perhaps if the argument was "bit 7 is the last free bit, we don't want to use it up yet", that would make more sense
13:49*Alberth is always happy with free bits
13:50<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: care to make a beer joke?
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13:52<Supercheese>Well, ok, I do understand the counter-arguments. How to best introduce historically important vehicles as close to the real date as possible, then?
13:53<Supercheese>set the intro date earlier?
13:53<V453000>less realism more brain?
13:53<@Alberth>Supercheese: don't try to import reality into a game, imho
13:54<Zuu>Give more power to GSes :-)
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14:02<andythenorth>that reminds me
14:02<andythenorth>FISH is broken wrt intro dates
14:02<andythenorth>ships disappear, and no replacement appears for ~some years
14:03*andythenorth shoud fix that
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14:08<Guilux>hi in 'ere, dou you have any ideas about installing openttd on debian wheezy please ?
14:09<@Alberth>just use the linux binary?
14:09<frosch123>just get it from you package manager
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14:12<Guilux>the thing is the ubuntu version too low (1.2.1)
14:12<Guilux>I have me server running debian wheezy and clients runing ubuntu various versions
14:12<@Alberth>euhm, installing on debian, but a wrong ubuntu?????
14:13<@planetmaker>Guilux, yes, still. First install. Then manually download "the newest" version on both
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14:13<@planetmaker>that download can just be placed in a directory of your choice. The install makes sure you got all necessary things
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14:15<Guilux>so i shouls start with something like this ? openttd-1.2.3-linux-generic-i686.tar.gz
14:16<@Alberth>Guilux: that's one way, but you need other files too. You can download them manully, or get them as part of the regular package manager openttd install
14:17<Guilux>when trying to dpkg -i the .deb 1.2.3, I have trouble with libicu and liblzma with seem too recent
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14:17<Guilux>-with + which
14:17<frosch123>yes, use the generic binary if you have not the exactly matching distribution
14:17<@Alberth>debian provides non-compatible packages? :o
14:18<Zuu>planetmaker / Alberth: the bootstrap dowload thingy, is that windows only? (the thing in OpenTTD itself that offers to download OpenGFX if it cannot be found)
14:18<@Alberth>Zuu: yes it is
14:18<frosch123>Zuu: it's win and linux
14:18<frosch123>Alberth: do you really think rb would code something win only? :o
14:18<Zuu>So he could just get the desired version and let the bootstrap do the work?
14:19<@Alberth>frosch123: Perhaps I should the README more often :p
14:19<Guilux>okay I check back in some minutes, thx for your help
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14:21<@DorpsGek>FLHerne: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
14:22<@planetmaker>Zuu, it should work on linux, too
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14:30<supermop>my work macbook air is bricked
14:30<supermop>and i cant put a boot disc in it because it has no disc drive
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14:31<andythenorth>stupid airs
14:31<andythenorth>I hate them
14:31<andythenorth>and no FW
14:31<andythenorth>and thunderbolt has nothing useful like FW target mode
14:31<andythenorth>and it's not user serviceable, so you can't flip the drive
14:31<supermop>ieeeeeeeee whatever
14:31<andythenorth>scrap it
14:32<supermop>its only 2 months old too!
14:32<andythenorth>it's an oversized, overpriced, underspecced iPad
14:32<supermop>as my last air was stolen
14:32<andythenorth>I hate them
14:32<frosch123>is that when you throw a brick onto it?
14:32<supermop>i have to go on site a lot
14:32<andythenorth>trip to the apple store
14:32<supermop>so the weight is nice -
14:32<supermop>but my vaio Z is lighter
14:33<andythenorth>if you have airs, you need daily time machine or carbon copy cloner backup (everyone should anyway)
14:33<supermop>and still has a optical drive, and ssd and ram i can remove
14:33<andythenorth>and a spare one in the office
14:33<andythenorth>then you can restore typically in about ~1hr
14:33<supermop>we have two new airs and two old mbps
14:33<andythenorth>especially if you have USB 3
14:33<supermop>guess which i wish i still was 'stuck' with
14:33<andythenorth>give them 5 years, they'll be commodity and disposable
14:34<andythenorth>right now we're in a weird place where they're not
14:34<andythenorth>so if it dies you're a bit fucked
14:34<supermop>well the aluminum probably has some scrap value
14:34<blathijs>supermop: Can't it just boot from USB?
14:34<andythenorth>lolwut :P
14:34<andythenorth>yeah actually it probably can
14:34<andythenorth>I forget that
14:34<supermop>dont have one of the apple usb optical drives
14:35*andythenorth has fallen victim to apple paranoia again
14:35<supermop>or anything else on usb with setup disc stuff on it
14:35<supermop>but should make one in the future?
14:35<@peter1138>hmm, anyone involved in grfcodec know why some nml-created grfs can't be decoded?
14:35<supermop>i don't know our company used to use all thinkpads
14:35<andythenorth>my default assumption is that in last 3 years apple have just made everything impossible to service
14:35<@peter1138>might be sound-effect related but i don't know
14:36<supermop>then we grew a lot and only bought apple
14:36<andythenorth>but actually whenever I have to deal with it, they haven't. I am just getting old and apple-hatey
14:36<supermop>some people are stuck with the old think pads but they still work
14:36<@peter1138>a decent thinkpad is way better than macbook
14:36<frosch123>peter1138: maybe it's some kind of drm
14:37<supermop>also our airport whatever wont play nice with my vaio when i bring it in from home
14:37<@peter1138>frosch123, seems to read beyond the end of the sound effect
14:37<andythenorth>fwiw, I have never been able to encode a sound effect with OS X grfcodec
14:37<andythenorth>which I may have reported
14:37<andythenorth>or not
14:37<supermop>otherwise i would just use my personal computer all the time
14:37<andythenorth>probly unrelated
14:37<@peter1138>frosch123, oh, DRM, not GRM... heh
14:37<frosch123>peter1138: well, might well be that noone tested container 2 decoding with sounds
14:38<supermop>anyway 'genius' bar appointment for 5:30
14:38<supermop>by the way
14:39<supermop>FIRS + CargoDist + Neighbors Are Important
14:39<supermop>is insanely slow
14:39<supermop>+ swedish houses
14:39<supermop>slow as in
14:40<supermop>nothing grows, except the smallest of towns with lots of work
14:40<Guilux>okay another question for the guys sitting in front of a screen ... should clients and servers run the exact same version ?
14:40<Pinkbeast>Yes, I believe.
14:41<Guilux>or the server running an oldish version to ensure compatibility ?
14:41<frosch123>the versions need to match exactly
14:42<Guilux>this is a challenge
14:46<@peter1138>i suppose i should fix up these sprites before coding
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14:47<andythenorth>I often do it after coding
14:48<FLHerne>supermop: Odd, that sounds like my current game :P
14:48<FLHerne>Try TaI houses. Slows it down even more :D
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14:49<Various>alguem fala portugues aqui?
14:51<Wolf01>ask __ln__
14:53<andythenorth>frosch123: meh, you'll hate me for this
14:53<andythenorth>when in the game setup are vehicle intro dates randomised?
14:54<@planetmaker>map creation iirc
14:54<frosch123>during "resetengines"
14:54<andythenorth>the reason you'll hate me is I haven't read code :P
14:54<frosch123>just like reliability
14:54<andythenorth>for the newgrf MU case (which might be bogus anyway)
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14:54<andythenorth>find set of all unique dates
14:54<andythenorth>write back to vehicles?
14:55<andythenorth>I don't care either way, I'm just pleased when I can think of a non-convoluted solution :P
14:58<andythenorth>no need for linked lists or anything on newgrf side
14:58<andythenorth>no player setting
14:59<frosch123>i think there was some usecase where using the introdate only did not work
14:59<frosch123>it should be in the linked discusssion
14:59<andythenorth>you want me to read stuff? :P
14:59<andythenorth>I didn't sign up for that
15:00<frosch123>no, i expect you already know it
15:00<andythenorth>is the MU case so vital anyway?
15:00<Supercheese>probably not
15:01<Supercheese>wait, which case...
15:01<supermop>well every large town requires a ton of gasoline in addition to mail and people
15:01<supermop>and there are still no oil refineries after 50 years
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15:01<Supercheese>Linked intro dates is separate from just non-random intro dates
15:02<supermop>and all the above grfs mean that i dont have the insane money one would expect to build them myself
15:02<andythenorth>FIRS hasn't built you any refineries?
15:02<supermop>on this map id need at least 8 to feed these towns
15:02<supermop>it has not
15:02<Supercheese>FIRS refineries are somewhat few and far between
15:02<andythenorth>probability is hard
15:02<supermop>it still builds me the occasional alu plant
15:03<andythenorth>Supercheese: the FIRS economy?
15:03<supermop>or metal shop
15:03<andythenorth>or one of the Basics?
15:03<andythenorth>FIRS economy is just too big
15:03<andythenorth>it will never work right with current OpenTTD
15:03<andythenorth>except on large maps with high industry setting
15:03<supermop>well really i wish i had dudes, mail, and food as the growth cargoes
15:03<supermop>not gasoline
15:04<andythenorth>the Basic economies are more directly rewarding to play IMHO
15:04<supermop>and neighbors are important can be a bit too unforgiving
15:04<Supercheese>Yeah, I find 256x512 to be min. size to play FIRS full economy
15:04*peter1138 fixes groundtiles.png
15:04<@peter1138>so the sprites don't overlap edges :p
15:05<@peter1138>hmm, should i... raise the edges
15:07<andythenorth>what does it fix?
15:09<@peter1138>eh? nothing much
15:09<@peter1138>just a few pixels in the wrong places
15:18<andythenorth>naughty pixels
15:18<andythenorth>multiply by number of players
15:18<andythenorth>that's ~25,000 pixels fixed
15:18<andythenorth>have a pie
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15:24<V453000>what are the basic things required for a railtype newGRF to work?
15:24<V453000>underlay, overlay, something else?
15:24<@planetmaker>and a mouse trap. While we're at it
15:24<frosch123>V453000: isn't that marked in the wiki?
15:25<frosch123>yeah, there is a footnote about it
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15:25<V453000>there is a ton of callbacks but I am asking which are the most basic ones
15:25<@planetmaker>the ones with the appropriate footnotes :-)
15:25<V453000>so basically all the [1] things?
15:25<frosch123> <- everything with footnote 1
15:26<V453000>right :)
15:26<V453000>I thought like you need to provide all sprites of the spriteset :D i was wondering about that
15:26<V453000>clear now :)
15:27<V453000>nothing :D I was just confused
15:28<V453000>I thought the "all of these sprites should be defined" was meaning all the 16 sprites in, say, overlay spriteset
15:28<V453000>just misunderstanding :)
15:28<@planetmaker>yes. you need to provide all 16 sprites there, all other sprites in the other necessary spritesets, too
15:29<V453000>yeah, that was the more important information :D I didnt even consider having spriteset with less sprites than the normal amount
15:30<@planetmaker>what is "normal"?
15:30<@planetmaker>nuts ;-)
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15:30<V453000>e.g. for underlay, normal amount of sprites is 16
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15:31<V453000>ye, well whatever, I understand it now :)
15:31<@peter1138>gimp uses alt-drag to move a selection
15:32<@peter1138>side-effect, alt-drag moves windows in most window managers...
15:32<frosch123>well, that also moves the selection, doesn't it?
15:33<@peter1138>only on screen, not relative to the graphics :p
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15:37<V453000>signals are the same for all railtypes or is it possible to change signals for different rails?
15:38<frosch123>take a look at the last row
15:39<V453000>was searching in signals section instead of callbacks :D I probably shouldnt do this tonight
15:40<V453000>well, that makes things more interesting :>
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15:41<@peter1138>ah, there's another tool that can move selections...
15:41<frosch123>you could replace the semaphore sprites with something useful
15:41<V453000>unicorn signals?
15:41<V453000>nah I might just find useful custom signals for one specific railtype
15:41<frosch123>a red signal could just be a pokemon sleeping on the rails
15:42<V453000>another thing I was considering is signals causing arrows on tracks
15:42<V453000>like >>>>>>>>>>>>> style track
15:42<V453000>if you see what I mean
15:43<V453000>no frosch sorry :D
15:43<V453000>well I might have the insanotracks complete in just a few days :P you will see
15:43<V453000>hm free day tomorrow
15:43<V453000>hm hm
15:44<supermop>oh man we should implement custom roadtypes to give mario kart [?] blocks on the road
15:44<Supercheese>that would be pretty funny I gues
15:44<andythenorth>V453000: you should do a truck set
15:45<andythenorth>there aren't any good ones
15:45<andythenorth>not really good ones
15:45<V453000>eGRVTS is satisfactory for me
15:45<supermop>no bandit?
15:45<V453000>I dont use RVs in my games..
15:45<andythenorth>bandit has been shot
15:45<andythenorth>bandit is a turkey
15:46<V453000>but I have some evil plans, you will see
15:52<andythenorth>I should resurect bandit
15:54<V453000>it looks majorly broken on the heaps :D
15:54<Supercheese>"Biglorryblog", that sounds like a monster in bad LotR fanfiction or something :P
15:57<@peter1138>sounds like something on HIGNFY
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16:02<supermop>just make a mercedes truck set
16:02<Supercheese>Isn't there already one of those? or was it for simutrans...
16:03<frosch123>lv3 sorted by manufacturer
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16:03<Supercheese>that, yeah
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16:31<andythenorth>[it was quiet]
16:38<@peter1138>raa raa rasputin
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16:40<andythenorth>ga ga
16:44<Kjetil>peter1138: Boney M ?
16:45<frosch123>no, the other one
16:46<frosch123>hmm, now i am unsure...
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17:01<andythenorth>oh what a night
17:01<andythenorth>but time for tubby bye bye
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17:10<@Terkhen>good night
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18:00<@peter1138>did anyone write a scriptable sprite combining system?
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>i wanted to abuse pixa for that, but never got around to
18:05<@peter1138>what's pixa?
18:07<@peter1138>hmm, could just do it manually with ... layers
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>pixa is andy's tool for making trucks out of a line of pixels
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's on devzone somewhere
18:12<@peter1138>i'm going with layers i think
18:12<@peter1138>too many special cases anyway
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18:19<@peter1138>gimp can do hierarchical layers
18:19<@peter1138>i know this cos it's there in an imported PSD file
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>"i closed the console with 'exit' [please save beforehand!]" :p
18:19<@peter1138>but... how do i create hierarchical layers?
18:20<@peter1138>hmm, layer groups
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>i really have no clue about gimp
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>or layers
18:21<@peter1138>and... it's masked
18:24<@peter1138>it doesn't work in... 8bpp mode... USEFUL
18:25<@peter1138>in that case, i won't bother
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18:41<@peter1138>could do with conditional layouts...
18:41<@peter1138>unless they exist
18:42<Kimmey>advertising to the master server is failing * How can i fix that ? :(
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18:42<+glx>open your ports
18:42<@DorpsGek>glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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18:43<Kimmey>i have done that -.-
18:44<Kimmey>pleas allow UDP and TCP packets to port 3979 to be delivered ..
18:45<@peter1138>i'm sure that's how it works
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18:47<Kimmey>i have been in the router and used port 3979 TCP/UDP to that ip i'm using
18:48<Kimmey> can any1 try this ?
18:48<@peter1138>it connects
18:49<@peter1138>july 1960
18:50<Kimmey>but to get it advertised then ?
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18:55<NGC3982>It seems he did not save our previous discussion
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18:55<NGC3982>Since he wrote the exact same questions today, as we handled in a PM yesterday.
18:56<Kimmey>im sorry for all this questions , but i want it to work :(
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18:59<Kimmey>but i don't understand why its not advertising and this ports -.-
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19:07<+michi_cc>Kimmey: Masterserver is also using port 397*8* (outbound only, so you don't need a port mapping, but possibly firewall rules).
19:07<@peter1138>is advertising enabled? :p
19:09<+michi_cc>That too. server_advertise in openttd.cfg has to be true.
19:10<Kimmey>Wow its suddenly works :S
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 30 00:00:26 2013