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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-31

---Logopened Thu Jan 31 00:00:27 2013
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02:53<@peter1138>should i go "value + bool" or "value + (bool ? 1 : 0)" ?
03:01<@planetmaker>peter1138: the latter. Some compilers will otherwise complain
03:02<@peter1138>thought so
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03:11*peter1138 wonders what "looks" better about restrictions on signals
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03:24<@peter1138>But this is interesting, if I don't remove goal from bankrupted company, the nem company receive this goal. I think the new company receive the old company's ID.
03:25<@peter1138>sounds like a bug
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03:25<kamnet>Morning. Anyone around?
03:25<@peter1138>company gets goal, company goes bankrupt, new company keeps the rule
03:26<kamnet>Ah, good to know!
03:26<kamnet>Insomnia is great!
03:26<kamnet>How are you this morning?
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03:30<Supercheese>peter1138: that bug's been reporte
03:30<Supercheese>oh hmm
03:30<Supercheese>you were quotin that
03:31<Supercheese>new post I hadn't read
03:32<@peter1138>report == on bug tracker
03:33<@peter1138>waste of time
03:33<Supercheese>Blaaah, I hate having to close and reopen OTTD when I update my grf
03:34<@peter1138>use a better os then :p
03:35<Supercheese>Pretty sure the non-OTTD games I play only support Windows
03:35<kamnet>There's a version of OpenTTD for OS/2 Warp??
03:35<@peter1138>non-OTTD games? what is this
03:35<@peter1138>kamnet, there was
03:35<Supercheese>I've got World of Warplanes idling in the background
03:37<kamnet>Well it took a few hours, but I've got all my OpenTTD builds and all my NewGRFs moved over to Skydrive. :D
03:43<kamnet>Now I just need ChillCore's Patch Pack to behave along with everything else :D
03:43<@peter1138>dropbox woo
03:44<Supercheese>Oh man ChillPP
03:44<Supercheese>people still use it?
03:44<@peter1138>or better, sparkleshare
03:44<kamnet>I've got a game that I've been playing since November 2010 on it.
03:44<Supercheese>Ah, savegame compatibility
03:44<Supercheese>that makes sense
03:45<__ln__>kamnet: Yes, there is/was a version for OS/2 Warp.
03:45<kamnet>If it wasn't for the fact that I've got such a great game going, I'd probably give it up. But considering all the hours of work I've put into it, and I've only maybe used 15% of the map...
03:46<Supercheese>one of those huge maps, eh?
03:46<kamnet>That said, give me a PP that has CargoDest, More Height Levels, and a daylength patch along with something 1.2.x or higher, I'd give it up.
03:47<kamnet>Not terribly huge, just 2048x2048. It spawned just right that I got really nice groupings of feeder services that can be networked into larger cities, and they're close enough that I can make really nice looking station layouts.
03:48<kamnet>I haven't even really focused on passenger services, I've got enough work on my hands with FIRS & CD just getting all the industry chains serviced.
03:49<kamnet>__ln__: It shouldn't surprise me that there was a Warp version. I always wanted to try Warp.
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03:55<Pikka>stop that
03:56<kamnet>I must have missed that, otherwise I would have stopped that. What did that do?
03:56<@peter1138>want to draw 63 extra sprites per rail type?
03:56<Pikka>why not?
03:57<Pikka>actually not really
03:57<@peter1138>for le junctions
03:57<Pikka>le true
03:57<Pikka>actually, while you're there
03:58<Pikka>it would be nice to be able to toggle autoreplace between replace now and "when old" without having to stop autoreplacing in between :)
03:59<Eddi|zuHause>see, i'm not the only one making "completely different feature" suggestions :p
04:00<Supercheese>kamnet: 2048x2048 maps are huge :P
04:01<Supercheese>do they even go higher?
04:01<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, 2 wrongs make a right, of course!
04:02<@peter1138>Pikka, i never knew that dropdown was there
04:02<@peter1138>also it should auto-select the currently replacing vehicle
04:02<kamnet>Supercheese: in CPP they can go up to 8192x8192.
04:03<Supercheese>Gigabyte savegames
04:03<kamnet>and height levels up to 256
04:03<@peter1138>doesn't the large maps patch go up to 1 million or something hideous?
04:03<Pikka>it should
04:03<kamnet>I tried to create an 8k*8k map once. I gave up on the generation after 20 minutes. :D
04:04<Supercheese>Haha, I made a Wright Flyer for my grf, and it's taxi speed is faster than its flight speed
04:05*Supercheese hates it's/its
04:05<Supercheese>"Apostrophes are always for possessives", they said...
04:06<@peter1138>except on it
04:06<Supercheese>Well, or contractions, I suppose
04:09<@peter1138>Pikka, of course, someone would complain that it makes mass-updating harder
04:09<Pikka>would they?
04:09<@peter1138>someone would
04:09<Pikka>my problem is that if you currently have "when old" selected, and then decide you want to replace /now/
04:09<Pikka>you can't just click the dropdown and select "replace now", it doesn't work
04:09<@peter1138>yes i know
04:10<Pikka>which seems like a bug to me :)
04:10<@peter1138>and if you did change it it would use the currently selected vehicle on the right
04:13<Pikka>I only just discovered that you can click on a bridge with the bridge tool to upgrade it :)
04:13<Supercheese>Yep :D
04:15<@planetmaker>oooooold feature (I think :-P)
04:16<@planetmaker>Sometimes I wonder how many of OpenTTD's features are actually used by the average player... if even "we" fail to use them due to ignorance
04:17<@peter1138>does autoreplacing articulated trams work as expected?
04:18*planetmaker doesn't remember oddities with HEQS... but not sure this statement is worth much :-)
04:18<Supercheese>I dunno
04:18<Pikka>I think so, I don't use them much though
04:18<@peter1138>me nither
04:18<@peter1138>but that andy fellow
04:19<Pinkbeast>I seem to recall some oddities with the refit-to-size HEQS trams but some time ago.
04:19<@planetmaker>they probably have smoke on the wrong place ;-)
04:19<Supercheese>I think andy unified the cargo subtypes to help avert that
04:20<Supercheese>rather than X cars/Y cars/Z cars, which could be different for different vehicles
04:26<@planetmaker>HEQS has only 3 lengths for trams iirc. uniform for all cargos
04:26<@planetmaker>so that might have been the solution, yes
04:26<Supercheese>Yes, but IIRC it wasn't always unified
04:26<Supercheese>*version 1.4.1* Unified all cargo subtypes for trams ('short', 'medium', 'long') - helps auto-replace do a better job.
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04:28<@planetmaker>it ain't broke, so don't fix it :D. Rather "fix" road types ;-)
04:28<@planetmaker>the ominous andy might rejoice then ;-)
04:28<Pikka>mmm road types
04:29<Pikka>newgrf(air)ports too please ;)
04:29<Supercheese>I have a feeling road types won't be implemented for fear of people abusing them for subways
04:29<@planetmaker>and newports. and bridges
04:29<@planetmaker>Supercheese, that's not really an argument against
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04:29<MNIM>what fun is a feature if you can't even abuse it?
04:29<@peter1138>nobody can agree on road types because people want 1 or 2 or 3 types per tile
04:30<@planetmaker>:-) It simply needs an executive decision ;-)
04:30<Pikka>silly people can't agree on road types because silly people want 2 or 3 types per tile
04:30<MNIM>planetmaker: sometimes it would do openttd good to have a dictator in charge, eh?
04:30<@planetmaker>And... wasn't it agreed that it needs a road and a tram type? And maybe a catenary type? :D
04:30<@peter1138>we already have 2 which makes ownership awkward
04:31<Pikka>no it wasn't, planetmaker
04:31<@planetmaker>tehehehe :-)
04:31<@peter1138>some people still think rail catenary should be separate to railtype
04:31<@peter1138>or something
04:31<@peter1138>16 types, enough for everyone
04:32<Pinkbeast>Well, I don't care how it's implemented but there is IMHO a serious need for more railtypes.
04:32<@peter1138>more railtype?
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04:32<Supercheese>∞ types
04:32<Pinkbeast>Er... yes?
04:32<Pikka>we should have two owners per rail tile
04:32<Pikka>so I can put my diagonal rail right next to yours
04:33<Supercheese>isn't that already possible?
04:33*Supercheese doesn't play multiplayer
04:33<Supercheese>I wouldn't know :S
04:33<Pinkbeast>Or so I can upgrade my pax line to maglev without comedy ensuing where it runs next to the freight line?
04:34<@planetmaker>peter1138, having catenary as a flag instead of a railtype intrinsic property would save half of existing railtypes
04:34<@peter1138>planetmaker, not really
04:34<Pinkbeast>planet: Perhaps I'm missing something, but haven't you just moved a bit from one place to another?
04:34<@planetmaker>do you look at the existing railtypes?
04:35<@peter1138>planetmaker, you might as well just add the extra bit you use to signify "catenary" and have 32 railtypes
04:35<Pikka>also I want five different types of catenary :D
04:35<@planetmaker>there's RAIL, ELRL --> two
04:35<@peter1138>MONO -> ELMN?
04:35<@planetmaker>peter1138, eh?
04:35<@peter1138>i'm saying it's waste
04:35<@peter1138>you'd need a bit on the map to say whether it had catenary, right?
04:36<@planetmaker>peter1138, yes. But that's how it's done / used: every railtype as non + electrified version. basically
04:36<@peter1138>but it's not
04:36<@peter1138>nobody does electrified maglev or electrified monorail
04:36<@planetmaker>I don't argue that it's sensible for *every*. But the exageration is the clarification. You're red-herring it
04:36<Pinkbeast>But in eg a NuTracks world almost all railtypes come as X or X+catenary.
04:37<@peter1138>you're saying "add a special bit so we don't have to duplicate railtypes"
04:37<@peter1138>but only RAIL is duplicated to ELRL
04:37<@planetmaker>narrow gauge + el. narrow gauge. grade A + el. grade A, same for grade B,C,D and high-speed
04:37<@peter1138>(yes, ignoring custom railtypes)
04:37<Pinkbeast>But it's custom railtypes that provide any motivation to change anything!
04:38<@planetmaker>if you want to ignore custom railtypes you don't need railtypes. Or road types
04:38<@peter1138>it's better to have 32 rail types with duplicates than 16 rail types which some options you can't use
04:38<@peter1138>you'd get an extra 2 rail types to use!
04:39<@peter1138>and that's assuming all combos (except monorail/maglev) can be electrified
04:39<@peter1138>therefore, no. adding a separating catenary bit is stupid
04:40<@peter1138>also you fuck up rail type labels
04:40<@peter1138>ELRL becomes what?
04:40<@peter1138>RAIL with catenary bit
04:40<@peter1138>that changes how testing compatibility/powered works
04:41<@peter1138>what about pikka's engines that are powered on both 3rd rail and catenary rail?
04:41<@peter1138>it doesn't need catenary, but it also can't run on just RAIL
04:41<Pinkbeast>It seems to me that it's best to keep all the railtype bits in one place and let railtype authors decide how to use them - but if the paltry allocation of 16 is increased, provide some support for railtypes that work as a set of basically independent bits.
04:41<@peter1138>Pinkbeast, exactly!
04:42<@peter1138>sort of
04:42<@peter1138>i mean, if you're going to waste a bit in the map array for "has catenary", imho it's better to "waste it" on doubling the railtype limit
04:43<@planetmaker>yes. But while it's not been possibly the best design decision with railtypes, it might be good for road types to choose the better design and make "catenary" a road type property ;-) And no: not on map array. In track properties
04:43<@peter1138>then you get 32 railtypes instead of 16 with some with catenary
04:43<Pinkbeast>s/waste/use/ but I agree completely. 32 would at least be a step in the right direction.
04:44<@peter1138>Pinkbeast, rail types are stored directly on the map array, that's why they're limited
04:44<@peter1138>sure you could "just add a byte" and have 256 rail types
04:44<Pinkbeast>(In particular, it doesn't work in MP, but in SP I can imagine a kludge where you have a much wider range of potential railtypes but only 16/32 in use at once).
04:44<Pinkbeast>peter: I know.
04:44<@peter1138>why not in MP?
04:45<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, either it works in MP or it won't happen
04:45<Pinkbeast>Because the 16 railtypes in use would have to be shared between the companies and...
04:45<@peter1138>we never add a feature that only works in SP
04:45<@peter1138>except cheats :p
04:45<@peter1138>no, you could have 9001 railtypes
04:45<@planetmaker>you basically can't say a savegame is MP or SP. It breaks so many things and assumptions I don't want to even start
04:45<@peter1138>but only 16 allowed per company
04:46<@peter1138>just don't merge companies
04:46<@planetmaker>Now, that's an interesting concept, peter1138 :-)
04:46<Pinkbeast>peter: bravo, it can work in MP!
04:46*MNIM thwacks peter1138 on the head
04:46<MNIM>this isn't dragonball Z.
04:46<MNIM>this is spa-*SHOT*
04:47<@peter1138>also, there's no free bits for stations
04:47<@planetmaker>@calc 16*16
04:47<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 256
04:47<@peter1138>well, that's bit 7 of m1
04:47<@peter1138>actually bit 7 of m1 is available rail/road station and tunnel/bridge tiles
04:47<Pinkbeast>When you take over a company they eat as many of your railtype slots as they can and remaining track gets downgraded to something you are using.
04:47<@peter1138>add that bit and you get 32 railtypes
04:48<@peter1138>anyway, the concept of just 1 road type per tile is interesting
04:48<@peter1138>there's no reason it couldn't accomodate 2 sets of roadbits and 2 owners
04:49<Pinkbeast>Let me guess, iterating over the entire map array is also discouraged?
04:49<@planetmaker>peter1138, ... :-( But how do I then add or remove trams? Or allow a 2nd person to build trams on my road?
04:49<Pikka>this sounds familiar :D
04:49<@peter1138>Pinkbeast, depends how often
04:49<@peter1138>planetmaker, secondary owner, not too hard
04:50<@planetmaker>and how do I know which vehicle type? Is "tram" a flag?
04:50<@peter1138>of course you have to duplicate every road type :p
04:50<@peter1138>tram as a flag is horrible
04:50<Pinkbeast>Once per company merger (and perhaps provide a feature in the player UI for "change all track of type X to type Y")
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04:50<@planetmaker>but how else, if as one road type?
04:50<@peter1138>planetmaker, one road type == road, one road type == tram, one road type == rotr
04:50<@planetmaker>you'll put the combinatoric explosion in the road type itself. And make combining newgrfs like impossible
04:51<@peter1138>trams are compatible with tram & rotr
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04:51<Pikka>exactly the same as with railtypes
04:51<@peter1138>fuck combining newgrfs
04:51<Pikka>stop thinking of trams as anything other than "road vehicles which need a particular type of road"
04:51<@peter1138>they all look shit and are unbalanced when combined anyway
04:52<Pikka>why can't you combine grfs?
04:52<@peter1138>usually they have completely different price rances
04:52<@peter1138>and running costs
04:52<@planetmaker>So I just add the new "dirt roads" NewGRF. And I simply can't have the trans cross the dirt road? Sounds... broken
04:52<@peter1138>and capacities
04:52<@planetmaker>would even work now
04:52<@planetmaker>if we just added roads and no new trams
04:52<@peter1138>yup, you'd need a dirt+tram type
04:53<@peter1138>who knows
04:53<Pikka>you wouldn't, but yeah :)
04:53<@planetmaker>honestly, that's quite stupid IMHO
04:53<@peter1138>(allow multiple engine sets was the worst thing i ever did)
04:53<Pikka>no it isn't, peter
04:53<@peter1138>yeah it is
04:54<Pikka>trams and tramtrack grfs
04:54<@peter1138>even you wanted to prohibit it at some point!
04:54<Pikka>no different from 3rd rail vehicles and 3rd rail track grfs
04:55<@planetmaker>road types: bool is_tram; bool needs_catenary;
04:55<@peter1138>no no no
04:55<@peter1138>road type: tram
04:55<@peter1138>is_tram is useless
04:55<@planetmaker>if is_tram == true --> draw as overlay on road. Otherwise not. needs_catenary for road *or* tram: draw catenary
04:55<Pikka><Pikka> stop thinking of trams as anything other than "road vehicles which need a particular type of road"
04:55<@peter1138>planetmaker, and tram tracks without road below?
04:56<@planetmaker>peter1138, in order to define drawing order. And to avoid two trams or two roads on same tile
04:56<@planetmaker>but to allow road + tram
04:56<@planetmaker>i.e. like now
04:56<@peter1138>so i can have tram & trolleybus crossing?
04:56<Pikka>planetmaker, there's no such thing as "tram", stop it
04:56<@planetmaker>peter1138, yes, you can. why not?
04:57<@peter1138>but you just disallowed two trams on the same tile
04:57<@peter1138>but hey
04:57<@peter1138>is a trolleybus a tram or a road vehicle?
04:57<@planetmaker>peter1138, trolleybus are road vehicles, not tram
04:57<@planetmaker>roadtype + catenary
04:57<Pikka>trams are road vehicles, not tram :D
04:57-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
04:58<@planetmaker>ok: how do you, Pikka, want to tell OpenTTD that first the road, then the tram tracks need drawing?
04:58<Pikka>I don't
04:58<@planetmaker>call it how you like then
04:58<Pikka>it will draw the road tile
04:58<Flygon>Clearly we need to mod OpenTTD to let trams on train tracks
04:58*Flygon runs away quickly
04:58<Pikka>which may or may not have tram tracks on it
04:58<@planetmaker>that's a step back wrt even now
04:59<Pikka>it's a step back from a horrible mess, yes
05:00<@planetmaker>how is it a mess?
05:00<@planetmaker>two different road types. two different sprite sets. easy
05:00<@planetmaker>you don't have that with rail tiles
05:00<Flygon>If I can make a silly statement, it's always annoyed me how roads are the size of one track width, despite the size of one road land irl being the same size as one lane irl
05:00<@planetmaker>there you always only had and have one
05:00<Flygon>But, I know it's a holdback from 1994 :3
05:01<Pikka>yes, and it's so much simpler, innit?
05:01<@planetmaker>Pikka, let's code trains as ships. Easy. No signals, no junctions to care, etc
05:02<Pikka>sure, except trams /are/ road vehicles. there's no difference between trams and road vehicles except trams have a hacky implementation of semi-road-type which is getting in the way of doing road types properly.
05:02<Flygon>May as well make a Final Fantasy GRF
05:03<Flygon>Where you have airships coupled together to create airfreight, and it looks like 1500s sailing ships
05:03<Flygon>Not that that's a bad idea, mind you
05:03<@peter1138>Flygon, do it
05:03<@planetmaker>Pikka, not true. It are two different road types. Not semi
05:03<Flygon>I lack both the coding competency and art skills :p
05:04<@planetmaker>it's mutually exclusive for a vehicle
05:04<Flygon>My stuff is toonier than roger rabbit @_@
05:04<Pikka>but it shouldn't be. they're just a different kind of road vehicle and should be rolled back into a roadtypes spec which resembles the railtype spec as far as practical
05:05<@planetmaker>sure. I agree. But that doesn't imply there can't be two road types per tile :-)
05:06<Pinkbeast>Now is not the time to mention those Simutrans trams that quite happily use heavy rail as well.
05:06<@planetmaker>and that's the single major difference between roads and rails
05:06<Pinkbeast>... ooops
05:06<Flygon>Pinkbeast: I already mentioned it
05:06<Flygon><Flygon> Clearly we need to mod OpenTTD to let trams on train tracks
05:06<Pinkbeast>Sorry. I missed the previous mention of Simutrans - when was it?
05:07<Flygon>The ideal solution would be roads being one tile a lane, but we know that's impossible without breaking compatibility
05:07<Flygon>Pinkbeast: I mentioned the idea, but not Simutrans
05:09<Pikka>planetmaker, well, if you're going to make it happen with two roadtypes per tile, I guess I shouldn't argue. ;) it just seems to me that one is simpler and easier
05:11<Pikka>in case it's not obvious, btw, I think that OpenTTD should not ship with any "built in" tram tracks. tram tracks in existing games should all revert to normal road, and the "tram" flag for road vehicles should be deprecated
05:11<Flygon>Why not simply read the saves based on version number
05:12<Flygon>If it's below a certain number, offer to convert it to the new format
05:12<Pikka>regardless of how roadtypes are implemented, trying to salvage the existing system would be more trouble than it's worth, imo :)
05:13<@planetmaker>Flygon, you ... state the obvious which OpenTTD does since the beginning of time... silently
05:14<Flygon>planetmaker: Wouldn't the change of something as fundumental as the roadtypes be potentially dangerous to convert?
05:14<@planetmaker>yes... and?
05:14<@planetmaker> look how long our conversion file already is
05:14<@planetmaker>a mere 3000 lines. And that doesn't include everything
05:15<Flygon>Lemme rephrase this
05:15<Flygon>I've been not involved with the development of OpenTTD
05:15<Flygon>So half the stuff I've been saying is probably from foggy memories of forum posts x.x
05:19<Flygon>Point is, almost everything I've worked with, none of it even resembles OpenTTD
05:21<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r24950 trunk/src/autoreplace.cpp (2013-01-31 10:21:04 UTC)
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05:21<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24136): Also set replace when old flag when replacing an autoreplace
05:21<@peter1138>yo dawg
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05:22<@peter1138>back to trams & simutrans, yeah... trams should never have been road vehicles imho
05:22<@peter1138>bloody ttdp
05:22<@peter1138>what's ever done for us?
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05:23<__ln__>it has set a goal
05:23<@peter1138>why does svn allow that?
05:23<@peter1138>i just committed from a checkout that wasn't updated
05:24<__ln__>it doesn't matter if you don't touch files that don't need to be updated.
05:24<@peter1138>no but it's bad practice imho
05:25<@peter1138>can still end up with invalid code
05:26<__ln__>given how slowly ottd adopted many of the files that ttdp had had for years, i don't think ottd would have advanced at all without ttdp setting a level of features that people expect.
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05:33<@peter1138>probably not
05:33<@peter1138>i doubt we've come up with newgrf
05:34<Pikka>no need for newgrf really
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05:34<Pikka>coal tgvs and the maglev update cycle were so fun
05:34<@peter1138>or ini files
05:35<@peter1138>newgrf stations are just pointless
05:35<Pikka>pretty though
05:36<@peter1138>MICROPROSE PRESENTS
05:36<@peter1138>a game by
05:36<@peter1138>Chris Sawyer
05:36<@peter1138>we should put those annoying splash screens in
05:37<@peter1138>right, how do i play?
05:37<Pikka>wow, they did it
05:37<@peter1138>who what?
05:37<Pikka>david braben got on kickstarter and said "give me two million dollars and I'll think about making elite 4"
05:37<Pikka>and they did it
05:38<@peter1138>oh, old news :p
05:38<@peter1138>elite dangerous or something
05:38<@peter1138>problem is
05:38<@peter1138>it's not elite
05:38<Pikka>but you're talking about chris sawyer made me think about it
05:38<@peter1138>on the bbc micro
05:38<@peter1138>which is the one true elite
05:38<Pikka>*cough* frontier was better than elite
05:38<@peter1138>he did pc elite or something
05:38<Pikka>he did the pc port of frontier, yes
05:38<Pinkbeast>peter: cough murmur second-processor or Master Elite is the one true Elite
05:38<@peter1138>Pinkbeast, TUBE ELITE
05:38<__ln__>MICROPROSE PRESENTS a game by Sawyer, Ludde, Darkvater, Bjarni: OPEN TTD
05:39<Pikka>complete with "look out for chris sawyer's transport game, coming soon" billboards in the space stations
05:39<@peter1138>in colour
05:39*Pinkbeast played TUBE ELITE
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05:39<@peter1138>only on an emulator :(
05:39<@peter1138>didn't have a real one
05:40<@peter1138>awww, no mouse wheel support
05:40<@peter1138>no resizable windows, hehe
05:40<Pinkbeast>Ah, bad luck. I dunno what happened to that old Beeb, but I had access to a real one. :-)
05:40<@peter1138>mine died eventually :(
05:41<Pinkbeast>At least the emulators are good these days. I think the Spectrum boys had a hidden advantage in having such crappy hardware - emulation got sorted out much earlier.
05:41<Pikka>I've been talking to scuddles too muc
05:42<@peter1138>yeah i was playing on speccy emulators 15 years ago
05:42<@peter1138>i can only just emulate a beeb on my core 2 quad...
05:42<@peter1138>dosbox is faster damn it!
05:42<Pinkbeast>Pretty sure there's still a Beeb in active service here.
05:42<@peter1138>i don't really see why, it's not exactly advanced hardware
05:42<@peter1138>not much in the way of quirks
05:42<@peter1138>6502/6522 are simple
05:43<@peter1138>the crtc was common enough
05:43<Pinkbeast>I think you must be using a ropey emulator - BeebEm worked fine for me on kit from about 5 years ago
05:43<@peter1138>(i think early cga cards used them as well)
05:43<@peter1138>beebem stutters for me
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05:43<@peter1138>technically this pc is from 5 years ago
05:44<Pinkbeast>Maybe more than that, I forget how fast hardware changes. A 1.8GHz single-core Athlon, anyway.
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05:44<@peter1138>3.0 GHz
05:45<Pinkbeast>So I think you must have some other problem with BeebEm.
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06:58<NGC3982>What just happend
06:58<NGC3982>Did i got disconnected?
06:59<NGC3982>My status tells me i didnt, but #OpenTTD just gave me a nicklist.
06:59<Pikka>* NGC3982_ has quit (Server closed connection)
06:59<Pikka>* NGC3982 ( has joined #openttd
06:59<NGC3982>Oh, ok.
06:59<NGC3982>Moon magic.
07:08<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> therefore, no. adding a separating catenary bit is stupid <- i think there needs to be some UI improvement to easily switch between electrified/unelectrified rail, without going through the lengthy (hidden) dropdown menu
07:09<goodger>I concur
07:09<@peter1138>i disagree
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>at the least, add the railtype dropdown to the rail toolbar
07:10<@peter1138>that is more reasonable
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>next to the convert button
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07:11<goodger>not only for the UI but because the presence or absence of a catenary is not necessarily a distinct "railtype"
07:11<@peter1138>yes it is
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>as an extension, allow the NewGRF to split that dropdown into two, at the NewGRF's choice to separate rail and catenary, or something completely different
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>it helps solve some combinatoric explosion
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>don't change the internal railtype labels, but change how the railtypes are presented to the user
07:13<goodger>with nutracks there are a baffling array of track types which are really just four track types plus all combinations of third rail and catenery
07:13<Pinkbeast>I'm not sure 16 yet counts as a baffling array
07:13<goodger>I feel that could be better handled
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: all numbers >7 are problematic
07:14<@peter1138>don't use track sets with so many combinations if it's confusing you
07:14<goodger>Pinkbeast: please forgive my hyperbole, but it's certainly a vast increase over TTD's original three kinds of track
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it's not about confusing, it's about cumbersome
07:15<@peter1138>don't use track sets with so many combinations if it's cumbersome
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: you frequently change between "128km/h with catenary" and "128km/h without catenary", but less frequently between "128km/h" and "180km/h" railtypes
07:15<goodger>(and those were actually three distinct kinds of track)
07:16<V453000>I think the whole rail speed limits are stupid, howgh
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that is not the point :)
07:16<V453000>I know :P
07:17<Pinkbeast>... why?
07:17<V453000>speed should be set by engine, not tracks
07:17<V453000>doing it by tracks just shows that the train set has dumb train stats
07:17<Pinkbeast>That's just circular.
07:17<goodger>in the real world, both the engines and the tracks have speed limits
07:18<V453000>yes real world also doesnt have pixels
07:18<V453000>not that I know of at least
07:18<Pinkbeast>Err so the engines should just fly through the air. It's not the real world.
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>tracks don't have speed limits, signal distances and curves have speed limits
07:19<Pinkbeast>Tracks _do_ have speed limits - presence or absence of superelevation, ability to sustain wear from trains at high speeds.
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>(except when the tracks are horribly worn down)
07:19<V453000>and how is that relative to the game ? :)
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>superelevation, wear ==> curve-related
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07:19<Pinkbeast>And signal distances are not meaningfully represented by OTTD signals.
07:20<goodger>it's relevant to the game because the game is a simulation
07:20<Pinkbeast>Eddi: But you can't superelevate a curve; OTTD doesn't directly represent curves less than 45 degrees; wear matters even on straight tracks.
07:20<Pinkbeast>I mean, in OTTD there is no way to superelevate a curve to permit higher speeds
07:21<Pinkbeast>Track for high-speed trains _is_ much more expensive and it is in my view nice to see that in the game.
07:22<Pinkbeast>(also, axle loading limits, hem-hem)
07:22<@peter1138>personally i would've gone with "normal tracks" and "high speed tracks"
07:22<@peter1138>and high speed tracks don't need 3rd rail or non-electrified variants
07:22<V453000>but what is the technical difference for the game?
07:22<V453000>nothing, except cost
07:23<V453000>oh and prevented rail crossings (:DDD)
07:23<@peter1138>yup cost
07:23<Pinkbeast>V453: I'm not sure I even understand your question.
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07:23<V453000>trains behave the same on these tracks
07:23<Pinkbeast>Except they go slower, yes... is this not expected?
07:23<V453000>except that it obviously prevents trains X from going full speed there
07:23<V453000>that is ... completely useless?
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07:24<V453000>if the trains have their stats correctly, their usefulness should be defined by those, not tracks
07:24<Pinkbeast>This is just circular again.
07:24<V453000>if tracks are used to reduce speed of trains, and they are still useful, then their speed is apparently too high in the first place
07:25<V453000>cost is completely irrelevant
07:25<Pinkbeast>Errr tracks aren't "used to reduce speed of trains". Tracks reduce the speed of trains because they need upgrading.
07:25<V453000>so absolutely no effect
07:25<V453000>cause upgraded tracks will do nothing then? wont even slow trains down
07:25<Pinkbeast>Except reducing the speed of trains which is what you'd expect a speed limit on tracks to do.
07:26<V453000>tracks after upgrade will still limit speed? :D
07:26<Flygon>Just a note
07:26<Pinkbeast>goodger: V453 thinks everyone plays the same way he does; set up a cash cow and then buy the best of everything.
07:26<Flygon>The pathfinder will do anything to put High Speed Trains on FASTER routes, even if the trip would be LONGER
07:26<V453000>I dont think that at all, I know you play differently
07:26<Pinkbeast>In that mode of play, of course, low-speed tracks serve no purpose.
07:26<Flygon>eg. it'll prefer 1000 tiles of 240km/h track over 100 tiles of 160km/h track
07:26<goodger>Pinkbeast: well, that is also how I play
07:26<V453000>it isnt any mode
07:27<V453000>having everything expensive doesnt do anything at all, making money in openttd is trivial
07:27<V453000>it just makes you wait longer
07:27<Pinkbeast>_If_ you just set up a cash cow and buy the best of everything.
07:27<goodger>but I don't spend £85k per tile on unlimited-speed track when the trains are going to be running at 75 mph
07:27<V453000>eventually build less expensively, but still only prolonges the game
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07:28<V453000>to be fair, nutracks with higher cost setting do mean that you upgrade trains only when you have money for the tracks
07:28<@peter1138>stupid servers
07:28<V453000>but again that is what train set should do
07:28<Pinkbeast>Says you - but that's purely circular.
07:28<goodger>actually, since I've been playing with cargodist, I've been very stingy
07:29<V453000>ok, says me, and what does you say that tracks give as a gameplay feature?
07:29<V453000>it "fixes" train sets, ok, next?
07:30<goodger>it doesn't fix train sets
07:30<V453000>oh it so does
07:30<Pinkbeast>We already explained that; it's just your inability to understand how anyone else plays the game means you don't comprehend. Sorry.
07:30<V453000>I am asking for a simple answer
07:30<V453000>that has nothing to do with me understanding
07:31<Pinkbeast>Prioritising track upgrades versus other expenditure of money and human attention is fun.
07:31<goodger>it provides a separate, infrastructure-based constraint on the speed of the train, which is more in line with how railways actually behave than having all trains run at their maximum speed on all routes
07:31<@peter1138>Flygon, that just means the penalties applied are too steep
07:31<Pinkbeast>And as goodger says it also feels more like a "real" railway.
07:31<V453000>:D ok I had enough fun
07:32<Flygon>peter1138: Steep is an understatement
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07:35<goodger>I'm glad to see the spirit of co-operative discourse in this channel hasn't diminished in my absence
07:36<Pinkbeast>Oh, I'm used to V453 and his "Why would you want trains to be different lengths, anyway?" questions. :-)
07:37*goodger sniggers
07:38<goodger>I wonder how long it's been since I was last here.
07:38<@peter1138>april 2012
07:39<@peter1138>only for a week or 2
07:39<@peter1138>before that, 2009
07:39<goodger>your grep skills are clearly superior to mine
07:39<@peter1138>i didn't
07:40<NGC3982>Does the dedicated server (Windows) use multiple CPU threads?
07:40<NGC3982>Or does it use my computer like the actual game?
07:40<goodger>oh, fair enough.
07:40<@peter1138>NGC3982, it is the actual game
07:40<NGC3982>I see.
07:40<@peter1138>but with no window
07:41<NGC3982>I'm about to move my server from my HTPC (Windows 7) to a Pentium 4 server (with no direct graphic interface).
07:41<NGC3982>I guess the P4 will do better than my Atom230 (twat face) HTPC.
07:41<goodger><dihedral> goodger, 6% is not that much, when you consider that about 20-25% of the forum users are real idiots
07:42<goodger>now I want to know the context for this.
07:43<@peter1138>yeah it doesn't appear to search nicks
07:43<goodger>shame. oh well
07:44<@peter1138>hehe @ feb 2009
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07:44<V453000>I am just wondering if that is more, or less retarded than the previous topic Pinkbeast :)
07:44<goodger>oh god
07:44<goodger>the binary thing?
07:44<goodger>that was embarrassing
07:44<@peter1138>nah the spammy bot
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07:45<goodger>I'd like to point out that I have been receiving medical attention for a couple of years and it has made me less of a tit*
07:48<V453000>I will ask you one thing however, Pinkbeast. I am indeed missing at least one part of "your" building logic, and that is ... what do you actually do when you have enough money to afford anything?
07:48<V453000>as that moment inevitably comes at some point of the game
07:48<Pinkbeast>Think about starting another game.
07:49<Pinkbeast>But I also make human attention a limited resource. If I was playing with base railtypes, for example, I won't just select the whole map and electrify it.
07:49<V453000>really? :D
07:49<Pinkbeast>I'll electrify one line after another.
07:50<@peter1138>hell yeah, i don't electrify the whole thing
07:50<Pinkbeast>Also, ponder the mess that is RV routing.
07:51<V453000>electrified roads?
07:54<Flygon>VACTUBE ROADS
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>hover roads
07:54<Pinkbeast>But I am very much in favour (for me) of things like infra maintenance and progressive tax that keep money relevant as long as possible without making the early game agonisingly slow.
07:56<Pikka>wow, that was quick
07:56<Pikka>"Coal Ash is CMNT", mb replies within 3 minutes
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08:10<Eddi|zuHause>it should be TMNT :p
08:11<NGC3982>TMNT <3
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08:27<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i'm not entirely convinced that reusing a random label for something completely different is a bright idea
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. an eyecandy vehicle set could have a cement transporter for CMNT only
08:29<V453000>hm, Q: I have some railtype defined by my newGRF. What I want to do is make it compatibile with both original bridges, and newbridges. But newbridges have a bit different bridge heads which need a slightly different offset for the ramps. Is there any way to automatically check if newbridges are loaded within nuts, or should I just add that as a parameter?
08:29<V453000>aka can a newgrf check for other loaded newgrfs?
08:30<Pikka>yes it can
08:30<V453000>k now to find out how in NML :D
08:31<V453000>well, that later :)
08:31<@peter1138>or newbridges should be fixed ;p
08:31<V453000>thanks Pikka :)
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: FIRS has lots of checks for other newgrfs
08:33<V453000>right :)
08:33<V453000>well I just figured it might be better to have sprites first before doing such a feature :P
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>not entirely sure what you mean with needing different offsets though
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>and there are several bridge sets
08:35<V453000>the ramps are of the same shape, but different position
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>newbridges, combined bridge and road set, total bridge renewal, ...
08:36<V453000>I know, but has some custom heads which wont fit my tracks at all in fact
08:36<V453000>*tbrs has
08:36<V453000>and the rest of tbrs seems compatible with original
08:36<V453000>so I might just need that one check for the ramps for newbridges
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>i think combroads has mostly the same bridges as newbridges, so you should check for that as well
08:39<V453000>I dont think I even used that thing ever :D
08:39<V453000>but I heard about it
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>i did a long time ago
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>until OTTD broke it
08:40<V453000>well I know I tried it some time ago, but it didnt replace anything
08:41<V453000>OH :DDD
08:41<V453000>my god
08:42<V453000>I forgot the sprite aligner resets upon reloading newgrfs
08:42<V453000>newbridges and original seem compatible
08:42<V453000>no comment .. :)
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08:50<Eddi|zuHause>what do people want this shares thing for anyway? i always hated the stock market in RRT
08:51<@peter1138>don't remember that
08:52<NGC3982>Any cinematic buffs around here?
08:52<V453000>something like "omg I spend 1M now, I get 300M later when I dont know what to do with money anyway"
08:53<@peter1138>shares are useless
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it's the thing where if you don't react immediately to an AI buying shares in your company they get 60% and you lose
08:53<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, ouch
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08:54<Pinkbeast>I thought it worked well in RRT3 (albeit perhaps not right for OTTD) where you were often trying to increase your personal wealth, and where share issues were a sensible source of funding.
08:56<Flygon>Can't make a Government Railway and issue bonds? :P
08:56<Flygon>Government Railways: The fun is in hoping Tony Abbot doesn't get elected!
08:56<Flygon>Man's probably never been to a train station in his life
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>no idea wth you're talking about
08:57<Flygon>I'm ranting again
08:58<Flygon>Point is, not every company is in the stock market
08:58<Flygon>Man, I'm so stupid when I'm suppose to be going to sleep >_>
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: well, in RRT you can buy 50% (or 100%) of your shares, then a hostile takeover is much harder. but doing that in the beginning would probably eat up all your starting money
09:01<Flygon>Makes sense
09:01<Flygon>Sorry for my ignorance x:
09:01<Flygon>Peeps keep telling me to play RRT x.x
09:02<goodger>yeah, stock buybacks are not usually a good idea
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>i just always disabled that they try to buy you out, then it's fine
09:04<NGC3982>planetmaker: Are you around? I for some time ago noticed that you had some knowledge in star formations? :)
09:06<goodger>formations, or formation?
09:07<@planetmaker>I might be and I might have but that's definitely a meta-question I can't answer
09:07<NGC3982>Ah, yes, formation. As in nurseries.
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>he's a planetmaker, not a starmaker :p
09:08<NGC3982>I have recently started reading about the more practical birth of stars.
09:08<NGC3982>And it's quite interesting.
09:08<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, planets are just collateral "damage" :-P
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>so what are twin stars then? :p
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09:11<Eddi|zuHause>"lesbian canibals"... you want to make people aroused and disgusted at the same time? at this hour? :p
09:12<goodger>furries have made a profitable industry out of doing so
09:12<NGC3982>I for some time ago heard that our current observation states that most star have a twin
09:12<NGC3982>Thus, many lesbians
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>what's "most" in this context?
09:13<goodger>I think it was about 70%?
09:13<goodger>maybe more
09:13<NGC3982>I do not know, really.
09:13<@planetmaker>most stars are in multiple systems. Not most stars systems are a multiple system :-)
09:13<@planetmaker>Note the difference
09:14<NGC3982>I guess that is size-of-orbit related?
09:14<@planetmaker>No. Simple number theory
09:14<NGC3982>Then, i did not understand that.
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>if i have two star systems, and one of them is a twin-star system, then 66% of all stars are in a twin system
09:15<@planetmaker>if 2/3 of the stars are in binary systems, still 50% of the stellar systems are single
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>because twin systems have twice as many stars
09:15<NGC3982>Yes, of course.
09:16<Celestar>planetmaker: well. ternary and higher star systems also bias that observation
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>so if 33% of all star systems are twin systems, then 50% of all stars are in twin star systems
09:17<NGC3982>But in a cosmological sense, a star that orbits another star closely with planets (a "two star system") is the same thing as a twin star system, with only orbit size in difference?
09:17<NGC3982>Or is this some magical language thing i have missunderstood.
09:17<Celestar>NGC3982: hm?
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: i'd assume those get rarer so that the influence drops asymptotically
09:17<NGC3982>Yes, this was a magical language thing.
09:18<@planetmaker>planets don't matter when considering multiplicity of stellar systems. Planets are just dust
09:18<NGC3982>planetmaker: If not, what is the difference of a two star system, and a twin star system?
09:18<NGC3982>That was the thing that puzzled me.
09:18<@planetmaker>And yes, the multiple stellar systems with n>=3 become increasingly rare
09:18<Celestar>afaik triple star systems are not THAT rare
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: i think of it as the twin star is a planet that got large enough to shine on its own
09:19<@planetmaker>NGC3982, there's none?
09:19<Celestar>"planet that got large enough to shine on its own" <- that's no planet anymore
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: semantics
09:19<Celestar>unless someone on it built a huge bulb
09:19<@planetmaker>oh, you mean two distinct systems vs. double star? gravitationally bound is the definition of double (multiple) system
09:20<@planetmaker>A system generally is everything which is gravitationally bound to eachother
09:20<NGC3982>planetmaker: Yes, and so i thought, that is why i noted: "< NGC3982> I guess that is size-of-orbit related?" when "two star" and "twin star" systems was mentioned.
09:20<@planetmaker>size of orbit = oo for two systems
09:20<NGC3982>A two star system that also has a long distant twin star. Three stars in a system, but only two locally.
09:20<@planetmaker>i.e. "orbit" has no meaning there
09:20<NGC3982>Oh, ok
09:21<@planetmaker>that'd be a quadruple system consisting of two close binaries. No problem with that.
09:21<NGC3982>I guess i'm not supposed to argue on stuff like this, when the language hinders me from understanding basic points.
09:21<Celestar>α Geminorum
09:22<Celestar>planetmaker: is it meanwhile clarified whether Alpha Centauri is a triple star system?
09:23<@planetmaker>I always believed that it's a tripple?
09:23<Celestar>I wasn't sure whether Proxima is really gravitationally bound or just happens to be near :P
09:24<Celestar>hm .. Septuple star systems.
09:24<@planetmaker>I've no special knowledge there either.
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>just imagine indefinite star systems, then 7 is just a special case :p
09:25<@planetmaker>I read once the wiki article on it, that's it :-P
09:26<@planetmaker> actually makes a case that most stars AND stellar systems are single
09:28<Celestar>stellar systems can't be single, can they :P
09:28<NGC3982>Why not?
09:29<Celestar>because afaik the definition of a stellar system is > 1 star gravitationally bound to one another :P
09:29<NGC3982>Doesn't the definition allow multiple (fairly closed, but still attached by gravity) stellar systems to be "twins"?
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09:29<NGC3982>Well, sure
09:29<NGC3982>In hard science, all of the universe is one stellar system, then.
09:30<Celestar>er .. no
09:30<@planetmaker>Celestar, a stellar system can consist of one star only
09:31<NGC3982>Yes, it would. Since gravity works in infinite distance, one could propose such a thing. We do not, since we notice that stellar systems have some sort of limit to them.
09:31<Celestar>planetmaker: that's a star system or planetary system :P
09:31<NGC3982>And, if we can define a limit, we can also define more than one stellar system
09:31<Celestar>NGC3982: gravitationally bound means C3 < 0.
09:31<@peter1138> :S
09:31<@peter1138>18 rail types o_O
09:31<@planetmaker>Celestar, a star system with one star can be a planetary system with a single central body. yes
09:31<NGC3982>Thus, if more than one exist, we could potentially tie them together without calling them a single system. A cluster, for instance.
09:31<NGC3982>Is that not correct?
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09:31<@planetmaker>the inverse is not necessarily true
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>you guys really should fix up your semantics before assuming the other one uses it the same way as you :p
09:32<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, i know. And that might be my fault. I love science, but i can't really express it properly in English.
09:32<@planetmaker>Celestar, replace "stellar" by "solar" and you'll see that one star suffices :-)
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>none of us us english :p
09:33<Celestar>planetmaker: afaik stellar system != star system (or solar system)
09:33<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: This channel consists of the best english speaking non-english people i have ever encountered on IRC.
09:33<SpComb>imagine in infinite plane of identical and uniformly distributed stars
09:33<Celestar>with solar system being one instance of a star system :P
09:33<SpComb>then calculate the resistance between two points
09:33<NGC3982>Wikipedia states that a solar system = stellar system.
09:34<SpComb>wait, no
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: usually the worst english speakers are native english speakers :p
09:34<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: That makes me feel a tad bit better.
09:35<Celestar>"a solar system"? There is only one :P
09:35<NGC3982>Sweet jesus, people are using public servers like crazy. When starting to advertise my server, i thought id get one or two players per day. Now, it feels like ten people join every hour (and leave :/).
09:36<@planetmaker>Celestar, you only make sense, if you now argue that "stellar system" is the same as Galaxy. Otherwise stellar system = star system = system where one or more stars form alone or jointly the local gravitational well which it / they reside in and which their prospective planets etc might orbit as well
09:37<Celestar>planetmaker: ah from what I understood a stellar system is a binary or higher star system.
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09:37<Celestar> wait.
09:37<@planetmaker>I'd never necessarily assume so :-)
09:37<Celestar>Even Wikipedia doesn't make sense there :P
09:37<@planetmaker>that's why you must not quote it ;-)
09:38<Celestar>I don't
09:38<@planetmaker>(or only on pain of scientific death or so)
09:38<NGC3982>Is there a way to set a defualt user password?
09:38<@peter1138>as a user, yes
09:38<@peter1138>on a server, no
09:39<NGC3982>Oh, what command/entry can i use?
09:39<Celestar>ok. let's say a bunch of non-stars orbiting one or more stars is called a "planetary system". A Star system is a number of stars gravitationally bound to each other, they may or may not have planets.
09:39<NGC3982>That sounds about right.
09:39<@planetmaker>I'd like to include single stars in the latter
09:40<Celestar>what's the difference between a planetary system and a star system then?
09:40<NGC3982>My intuition tells me that a star system does not have to include anything else than the star.
09:40<@planetmaker>given the ubiquity of planets: in reality none
09:40<Celestar>planetmaker: probably
09:40<NGC3982>A planetary system needs planets, i guess?
09:40*NGC3982 googles the word ubiquity
09:41<Celestar>I think we will find few stars that do not have planets
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09:41<@planetmaker>sure, there will be. no doubt. Especially those short-lived high-mass ones
09:41<Celestar>no I meant planets, no stuff :P
09:41<NGC3982>I guess older stellar nurseries may have protoplanet junk instead of actual spheres.
09:41<Celestar>planetmaker: "few" :P
09:41<@planetmaker>though even those will have a disk. Most likely
09:41<@peter1138>^ unsuppported! patch! for! 32! railtypes!
09:41<@planetmaker>Celestar, yes. very few
09:42<Celestar>planetmaker: aren't the high-mass ones very very very friggen rare?
09:42<@planetmaker>big stars are very scarce
09:42<@planetmaker>the initial mass function peaks somewhere around half a solar mass. Thus that's most common
09:43<NGC3982>So, the sun is bigger than the average?
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>when i last took astronomy class, the theory was that multi-star systems likely wouldn't have planets
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>but that was ages ago :p
09:43<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: when was thaT? 1995?
09:43<NGC3982>I was under the impression it was the other way around. :)
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: yes, something like that :p
09:43<@planetmaker>treatise on multiplicity of stars for planetary systems ;-)
09:43<Celestar>NGC3982: well. average or mean size? :P
09:43<__ln__>did anyone take an astrology class?
09:44<NGC3982>__ln__: We actually did.
09:44<Celestar>__ln__: if I had, I would have been convicted of manslaughter I guess
09:44<Celestar>astrology? class? really?
09:44<Celestar>Was your teacher called Trelawny? :P
09:44<@peter1138>i think he doesn't know what astrology means :)
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09:45<@peter1138>i hope
09:45<NGC3982>As a bit of our astronomy/physics lessions, we had a (suprisingly long) part about astrology, and how it is the worst "science" that was ever used seriosly.
09:45<NGC3982>peter1138: I was about to curse on you.
09:45<Celestar>Making stuff up isn't science
09:45<Celestar>it's politics
09:45<__ln__>in the good old times, astronomy and astrology were one science, i've understood.
09:45<NGC3982>Hence, the "".
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: clearly that missed out on homoeopathy
09:45<NGC3982>Religion was also considerd the best of observation back in the day
09:46<NGC3982>As with astrology, hence the teachers enthusiasm in teaching us how the best of observations might lead to the worst of conclusions.
09:46<NGC3982>That is at least what i guess the point was.
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09:47<Celestar>Hello A300-600ST :P
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: well if the moon cycle and a woman's cycle (almost) sync up, what conclusions can you possibly draw? :p
09:48<Celestar>erm. yeah. right. :D
09:48<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: That sex is magic, and "blue balls" should really be "moon balls".
09:48<@Belugas>hello sir Celestar :)
09:48<Celestar>how ya been
09:48<@Belugas>still sitting on the same chair and drinking teh same coffee since last time !
09:48<Celestar>same coffee?
09:49<@Belugas>well... same mug, same brand of coffee...
09:49<@Belugas>and same frequency of drinking...
09:49<NGC3982>peter1138: And that assumption offended me.
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: also, if a certain star formation typically appears at the same time as the fertilizer-bringing flood, and mix in a bit of religion... how can there come anything other than astrology out of it?
09:49<@Belugas>and still mumbling about stupid "help" desk
09:50<@Belugas>Definition of HelpDesk... the guys who are crying for help...
09:50<@peter1138>NGC3982, i was going on a native-language angle
09:50<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: well but that's the past.
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: the past has this tendency to bleed into the presence...
09:51<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Well, that was kind of the point of these lessons. Our modern school systems can be very good at teaching how to be sceptic, but also be very bad at teaching where scepticism is appliable. As in the example you gave, the connection may be irrefutable with what at the time was modern observation.
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>it's called "conservativism"
09:51<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
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09:51<Eddi|zuHause>aka "we have always done it this way"
09:52<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: And the main purpose might have been not to accept "the best of observation" just because it's the best of observation.
09:52<NGC3982>Yes, indeed.
09:52<NGC3982>Or, well
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09:52<NGC3982>It doesn't have to be
09:53<NGC3982>Since we have explored science and nowadays know that stuff may not be what they seem like, it's easy to say that everything is the "best of observation - right now".
09:53<NGC3982>That is hard to apply in a society where your observation always leads to some kind of truth.
09:53<NGC3982>God in pre-space-exploring times, for instance.
09:54<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah hence we have some strange leftovers.....
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes, like partys that have a "C" in their name
09:55<NGC3982>Lawrence Krauss has a good conversation about this in A universe from nothing, where he compares astrology with what future scientists may say about the world when the expansion leads to us not observing anything else but our own galaxy.
09:56<Pinkbeast>Oh, yes, I saw a story about that in Scientific American. And of course there is the interesting question of whether this has already happened.
09:56<NGC3982>And that is a horrible notion
09:57<Pinkbeast>... but I think he rightly observes that in that old universe it is very hard to form a self-consistent cosmology supported by evidence at all, which is not the position we are in.
09:57<NGC3982>The best of observation leads to an ultimate theory that can under almost no circumstances be disproved due to enourmous proof and observation ..And it's ..Wrong.
09:57<NGC3982>Yes, i guess.
09:58<NGC3982>I guess we could potentially ignore it, though.
10:02<Pinkbeast>Also, our cosmological theory makes predictions which prove true, which is always nice. Even if the old-universe people form a bogus cosmology, that won't work.
10:11<@Belugas>hello sir planetmaker (sorry for lag, i was cutting some heads)
10:11<@planetmaker>old news, oskari89 ;-)
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12:08<NGC3982>I wish to change my server system from Windows to Linux. What dist is the best one to start with? Ubuntu?
12:08-!-mrdaft [~mrdaft@] has quit [Quit: -]
12:09*NGC3982 tries Debian.
12:17<Pinkbeast>NGC: If you have no prior Unix admin experience I would try Ubuntu; if you have plenty, Debian.
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12:19<Pinkbeast>Ubuntu because it's approachable (but a Debian derivative); Debian because it's of a high technical quality and not tied to a corporate who might pull a Red Hat.
12:20<@peter1138>what's unapproachable about debian?
12:21<Pinkbeast>Debian is not really targetted at users without existing Unix admin experience
12:23<@peter1138>in your humble opinion
12:24<@peter1138>it isn't "targetted" at all
12:24<@peter1138>it just is
12:24<Pinkbeast>I think that's a meaningless semantic quibble.
12:24<@peter1138>ubuntu == crock of useless shit
12:24<Pinkbeast>... and I also know IWJ would say the same thing.
12:25<Pinkbeast>(and recommends Ubuntu to less-experienced users)
12:25<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: I have no prior experience.
12:25<@peter1138>so no need to pollute your virginity with ubuntu crap
12:27<Pinkbeast>NGC: Then you know what I recommend.
12:29<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: I have used both, but never more then in instances as user.
12:29<NGC3982>I guess i know how to start stuff.
12:29<NGC3982>But i guess ill manage
12:29<Pinkbeast>Well, I'm chasing off home, nohow. But I don't really have anything to add to "probably Ubuntu then"
12:30<NGC3982>Already installing Debian
12:30<NGC3982>Ill try it out
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12:44<@peter1138>blathijs ;)
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12:47<blathijs>peter1138: hm?
12:57<MNIM>peter1138: well, post 10.10 anyway
12:58<MNIM>also, guys, what was the conclusion of that roadtypes discussion you had this morning?
13:03*MNIM reads changelogs
13:03<@Terkhen>conclusions? in this channel?
13:04<MNIM>holy meatballs, is it just me or is there a buttload of new features in the 1.3.0 beta?
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13:06<@Terkhen>there are many nice things :)
13:07<@Terkhen>meh, I'm stupid, I forgot to separate beta1 and <next_version> in my changelog
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13:13<@peter1138>conclusion... lol
13:13<@peter1138>i did make a patch for 32 railtypes
13:14<@peter1138>but nobody cared cos it was all about stars
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13:25*NGC3982 is done.
13:25<NGC3982>This will be interesting. I have never used any server software on a Linux system.
13:26<NGC3982>It will be nice to see how Debian works out.
13:27<@peter1138>what do you intend to run?
13:29<NGC3982>The game, as a server.
13:31<NGC3982>Oh, and it was ..simple.
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, just type openttd -D and you have a server. amazing
13:32<NGC3982>Well, that is not the big part.
13:33<NGC3982>I guess choosing NewGRF's and map configuration is not as easy as in Windows, since i do not have any graphical interface to start OpenTTD in.
13:34<@peter1138>yeah, someone™ should do something about that
13:34<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24951 trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp (2013-01-31 18:34:11 UTC)
13:34<@DorpsGek>-Fix: [NewGRF] Var 10 of CB 24 missed the T part.
13:35<NGC3982>peter1138: You make it sound as it's impossible. :e
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13:43<@peter1138>it's pretty impossible to get someone™ to do something
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24952 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/tamil.txt (2013-01-31 18:45:07 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>tamil - 15 changes by aswn
13:49<NGC3982>I'm actually not getting it to work.
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13:49<NGC3982>I guess the default config should support simply starting the server dedicated, and playing should work as long as networking allows it?
13:49*NGC3982 needs to investigate.
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>something for Belugas :)
13:56<@peter1138>NGC3982, yes but LAN only i think
13:57<NGC3982>I worked it out.
13:57<NGC3982>The version present in apt-get is 1.0.4
13:57<@peter1138>ah yeah
13:58<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: it's missing on top a picture from spain with salt on the streets but no snow
13:58<NGC3982>How ..does one remove software.
13:58<@peter1138>just need to download a stable from our website
13:58<@peter1138>don't bother :)
13:58<NGC3982>Oh lord
13:58<NGC3982>I'm on it.
13:58<@Terkhen>a week ago they actually started a "red alert for snow" but we got no snow at all
13:58<NGC3982>I wonder if supports lynx.
13:58<@peter1138>installing it pulled in all the dependencies for you, which was handy
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13:59<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: in Lübeck they used sharp-edged greeble, and now all the bicycles have flat tyres
13:59<@peter1138>there is a debian squeeze patchage on our downloads
13:59<NGC3982>Squeeze? Ok..
13:59-!-Flygon [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:59<@Terkhen>heh :D
14:03<NGC3982>My god
14:04<NGC3982>Giant error message
14:04<NGC3982>It seems it did not like to install 1.2.3 when 1.0.4 was installed.
14:04<@peter1138>shouldn't be a problem
14:04<@peter1138>it'll remove 1.0.4 to install 1.2.3...
14:06<NGC3982>Hold on, something else is wrong.
14:06<NGC3982>I could install openttd with apt-get as a user.
14:06<NGC3982>But i don't seem to have the rights to use dpkg, as the same user.
14:06<NGC3982>Might that be a problem, say.
14:11<@Belugas>nice, Eddi|zuHause ;)
14:12<@peter1138>you can't use apt-get as a user
14:13<@peter1138>you need to be root, use su, or sduo
14:13<@Belugas>of sudoku
14:13<@peter1138>NGC3982, okay, ignore me. remove openttd & openttd-data
14:13<@peter1138>NGC3982, then it'll install
14:14<@peter1138>but check the clock on your server
14:14<@peter1138>cos those errors are cos of that
14:14<NGC3982>Oh, ok.
14:14*NGC3982 needs to google how to remove programs.
14:14<@peter1138>apt-get remove
14:14<@peter1138>on a deb-based system anyway
14:15<NGC3982>Nice, thank you.
14:15<NGC3982>Now, all i need to fix is to allow my user to install via dpkg.
14:16<@peter1138>apt-get install sudo
14:16<@peter1138>adduser username sudo
14:17<@peter1138>then you can do sudo dpkg etc
14:17<NGC3982>I have sudo
14:17<NGC3982>But yes, ill try that.
14:17<@peter1138>then add your user to the group :p
14:18<NGC3982>It was already done
14:18<NGC3982>I think i did that by hand.
14:22<NGC3982>Let's see then
14:22<NGC3982>First, i run the apt-get remove, and it confirms that openttd is not installed
14:22<NGC3982>Then, i run this:
14:23<NGC3982>openttd-data does not seem to be removed with sudo apt-get remove openttd.
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>how is your reading comprehension? he said to remove BOTH!
14:23<NGC3982>Sorry, yes.
14:23*NGC3982 continues.
14:24<NGC3982>There we are.
14:25<NGC3982>It seems i need libicu38.
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>then you probably downloaded the wrong .deb
14:26*NGC3982 re-checks.
14:26<@peter1138>works for me
14:27<@peter1138>linux debian squeeze
14:27<@peter1138>you must have got linux debian lenny
14:27<NGC3982>Yes, indeed i did!
14:27<NGC3982>I did not see that Squeeze link until i rechecked
14:27<@peter1138>well done
14:27<NGC3982>That's what i get for using Lynx.
14:27<@peter1138>18:59 < NGC3982> Squeeze? Ok..
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>something is really wrong with your reading comprehension
14:28<NGC3982>I had no idea what Squeeze was.
14:29<NGC3982>And it worked.
14:29<NGC3982>peter1138: Thank you.
14:29<@peter1138>amazing ;)
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14:32<@peter1138>probably not helpful
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15:28<Kjetil>no. music
15:30<@Belugas>This Will Destroy You - Black Dunes
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15:56<MNIM>D'oh. You'd think my intersection would be big enough with a HSL line crossing a 'slow' mainline with two branches
15:57<MNIM>Apparently I was wrong.
15:59<MNIM>well, I suppose you could call it four branches if you count the part past the station too.
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16:02<MNIM>I think Ive finally found the root of my routing issues though.
16:06<NGC3982>There is a site with the corresponding Online Content data, right?
16:07<NGC3982>For me (who cannot use the Online Content feature)?
16:07<NGC3982>That seems to be BaNaNas.
16:09<@peter1138>technically you can
16:09<@peter1138>it's just not very friendly
16:10<NGC3982>Yes, i noticed. My initial reaction was to look for a "Download everything" button.
16:11<@peter1138>there is that
16:11<@peter1138>you might end up grabbing zbase though
16:11<@peter1138>which is a bit large
16:11<NGC3982>zbase? Oh, ok.
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16:22<NGC3982>I tried downloading all of the ECS files that was on the Bananas site, but they not seem to be the same as the ones in the Online Content?
16:22<NGC3982>That said, i can't get them to match with the already existing ones my local Windows client is using.
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16:28<Superuser>le good feel
16:29<MNIM>I think (hope) I solved all routing troubles in my new intersection, now I hope I can get that festering stinking sexual organ of a train route that was one of my local stop services to run on the correct track
16:32<@peter1138>mmm, festering stinking sexual organs
16:35<@Terkhen>that sounds far worse than the actual swear words
16:37<MNIM>As was my intention, thank you :P
16:38<MNIM>Seriously, it was a train route running across half of a 1024^2 map stopping at every station it encountered and not a single train was doing anything useful due to one tiny error (a signal pointed the wrong way)
16:39<MNIM>well, and the inherent routing complication a parallel loop comprises, but that was easily solved by waypoints
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16:55<MNIM>48 orders.
16:55<MNIM>less than I expected, actually
17:00<NGC3982>Where can i read on how i toggle parameters on NewGRF's that are loaded via a dedicated server (in Linux)?
17:01<NGC3982>For some reason, the UKRS2+ sets a default "No locomotives" parameter when using the GRF in my initial config.
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17:02<frosch123>you write numbers after the "=" in openttd.cfg
17:07<NGC3982>frosch123: Where can i find more documentation about it? I notice that "Parameter: 3" shows, but it does not change any of the existing ones.
17:08<frosch123>do you know that openttd.cfg will only affect you games?
17:08<Supercheese>NGC3982: Load OTTD in a normal GUI-environment, set your parameters, and look at what they are there to compred
17:08<Supercheese>to compare*
17:09<Supercheese>For example my UKRS2 has Parameters: 0 0 2 1 0 4 3
17:09<Supercheese>UKRS2+ has no parameters
17:10<NGC3982>Yes, sorry, i was refering to UKRS. I think i kind of fixed it.
17:10<NGC3982>Ill just test it and see what happends.
17:10<NGC3982>frosch123: Yes.
17:11<Supercheese>GUI parameters are nice, since they have real descriptions and stuff rather than just being numbers :)
17:13<NGC3982>Hm, it did not work.
17:13<NGC3982>Supercheese: is "0" the first choise of the given parameter?
17:14<Supercheese>First parameter, Locomotive Selection, is for me set to "Extended"
17:14<NGC3982>number "3" is "normal" for the first parameter.
17:14<Supercheese>Oh weird
17:14<Supercheese>Locomotive Selection is NOT the first in the parameter numbers
17:14<Supercheese>It's second-to-last
17:15<Supercheese>So Parameters: X X X X Y X
17:15<Supercheese>The Y is loco selection
17:15<NGC3982>Uhm, how do i know that?
17:15<Supercheese>Y = 4 is "Extended"
17:15<NGC3982>I only went for in what order the list was in.
17:15<Supercheese>Y = 0 is "no locos"
17:15<Supercheese>(this info is all obtained from the NewGRF GUI)
17:16<NGC3982>Yes, that part is clear to me. What is not clear to me is why it's second to last in order? :)
17:16<Supercheese>Yeah, I dunno either
17:16*NGC3982 changes.
17:17<NGC3982>Yes, that worked.
17:18<Supercheese>you're welcome
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17:19<NGC3982>That means i am done moving my server
17:19<NGC3982>Debian+Samba+Openttd+all of the configs.
17:20<NGC3982>It is currently housed in this:
17:28<@Terkhen>good night
17:37<MNIM>NGC3982: you got a server hidden in that?
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17:53<MNIM>well this won't help my death count.
17:54<MNIM>a 14-tile long intercity rammed into an equally long freighter at a sing I expected it to stop at (i was wrong)
17:55<MNIM>oh wait, not a 14-long ic, just a 5-long local double-decker.
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19:24<Supercheese>"Transfer and wait for any full load with auto-refit to available cargo"
19:24<Supercheese>Gets a bit wordy
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19:56<Flygon>It's not wordy
19:56<Flygon>It's Treky!
19:56<Flygon>In fact
19:56<Flygon>It sounds just like something from the bridge of the Enterprise
19:58<Supercheese>You could abbreviate it as T&WAFLw/AR2AC :P
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21:02<@peter1138>if you're a cat, YOLTT
21:03<Supercheese>Ten? Not nine?
21:03<@peter1138>thrice thrice
21:04<Supercheese>I see...
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21:22<Flurret>I'ma part cat :P
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23:16<Supercheese>Hmm I wonder why the early metal works industry isn't in FIRS Basic
23:16<Supercheese>Iron Ore + Wood -> Metal
23:16<Supercheese>all those cargoes are in basic...
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23:32<@peter1138>early metal works?
23:32<@peter1138>like 1000 BC?
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23:38<Flygon>peter1138: Pre-Christ GRF :P
23:38<Flygon>Also, I really want Tram and Bus stations on Bridges D:
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23:40<Pikka>cool, oftc let me in
23:41<Pikka>early metal doesn't work, btw
23:45<Pikka>what with the declutter parameter I might want to extend the life of some of the smaller tank locos in UKRS2...
23:45<Supercheese>Jinties and the like?
23:46<Supercheese>Or would that be Jintys?
23:46<Supercheese>1890-1970, impressive lifetime
23:52<Pikka>pannier tanks at least
23:52<Pikka>with the declutter parameter they disappear in the mid 50s, when they should probably stay available until the diesels that replace them
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---Logclosed Fri Feb 01 00:00:29 2013