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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-04

---Logopened Mon Feb 04 00:00:33 2013
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02:27<__ln__>hyvää huomenta
02:27<Supercheese>@get 5
02:27<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: English only
02:27<Supercheese>(of course I violate that rule like mad myself :P )
02:28<__ln__>that rule has never applied to saying good morning
02:28<Supercheese>Indeed
02:28<Supercheese>I was mostly testing the @get function, I don't recall using it before
02:29<Supercheese>though I had observed its use and deduced the syntax
02:29<@peter1138>@get laid
02:29<@DorpsGek>peter1138: Error: 'laid' is not a valid topic number.
02:29<@peter1138>:S
02:29<Supercheese>:D
02:29<__ln__>so the '5' means the fifth "token" in the topic separated by | ?
02:30*Supercheese is laughing so hard
02:30<@peter1138>@get 4
02:30<@DorpsGek>peter1138: 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither
02:30<@peter1138>yeah i guess
02:30<Supercheese>__ln__: yeah, pretty much
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04:05<Bonez305>Hello there.
04:05<Supercheese>Greetings
04:05<Bonez305>So did this game come from rail road tycoon or vice versa? :D
04:05<__ln__>no and no.
04:06<Bonez305>which came first, before i google it.
04:06<Bonez305>RRT it is :D.
04:07<Bonez305>Been trying to get a feel for online gaming, yet it seems so fast paced
04:09<Bonez305>I guess no one likes noobs lol
04:09<Supercheese>Friggin a
04:09<Supercheese>I STILL cannot build maglev/pipeline/whatnot on the other diagonal part of a tile as a regular track
04:09<Supercheese>lame
04:14<Bonez305>can any suggest a good server ?
04:15<__ln__>apache
04:15-!-bco1981 [53885934@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
04:16<Bonez305>dont see anything named apache in the list.
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04:18<bo-31027>Hi, I've been searching the wiki and forum but could not find what i was looking for.
04:18<bo-31027>Does anyone know, when you make a dedicated server and no people er on it, will the "world" pause or will time go on ?
04:22<Tvel>The "min_active_clients" server command configures this
04:23<Tvel>http://wiki.openttd.org/Console#Server_commands
04:23<Tvel>all here
04:24<bo-31027>thanks, hadn't looked at the commands yet, but that explains my question, thanks alot :)
04:29<Supercheese>good night
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04:55<Pikka>bananamen, is there a way to download old versions of grfs via http?
04:55<Pikka>are old versions shunted into a subdirectory or something?
04:56<Pikka>because just changing the version number of the tar.gz link doesn't work. :)
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05:25<Bonez305>was the quickest way to get money, early game ?
05:28<Flygon>Coal
05:37<TinoDidriksen>There are in-game graphs of what gives most money.
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05:38<Flygon>TinoDidriksen: I'm just going by experience
05:38<Flygon>Coal > Power Plant is the most trivial way to print money
05:38<Flygon>Which makes it easy to boost your REAL cash cow
05:38<Flygon>Passenger
05:39<@peter1138>remove distance from the equation
05:40<@peter1138>no cash cows then
05:43<Flygon>How so?
05:43<Pikka>moo
05:44<@peter1138>noo
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05:54<goodger>ooo
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05:59<@peter1138>poo?
05:59<goodger>I didn't say it
06:00<@peter1138>ok
06:00<@peter1138>16384 sqrt() calls
06:00<@peter1138>should i halve that?
06:00<@peter1138>or not care at all
06:00<goodger>I imagine sqrt() would not be one's top priority in such cases
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>float math! evil!
06:04<Flygon>Real programmers calculate in binary
06:08<@planetmaker>Pikka, old versions are afaik not available via http
06:08<@planetmaker>there's afaik no link which will give them to you, if you need them manually (and why would you?)
06:09<Bonez305>3m every couple seconds ? :O
06:09<Pikka>old version of av8 for someone, as a temporary measure for ai crashes, planetmaker
06:10<Pikka>I ain't really bovvered though
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06:10<Pikka>peter1138, more sqrt calls
06:10<@peter1138>AI crashes? how silly!
06:10<@peter1138>more sqrt!
06:10<@planetmaker>you only get that ingame, if you have an old game and need that particular version (grfID+md5sum) from an old savegame.
06:11<Pikka>not a worry
06:11<Pikka>I told him to check his download directory to see if he has the old version :) and I also will provide a parameter to sidestep the issue in the next version of av8
06:12<Pikka>(with the sideeffect of allowing players to disable limited ranges, which I'm sure will please many)
06:12<@planetmaker>surely, yes
06:12<Pikka>because what's the point in having planes if you can't fly them from one corner of a 2048* map to the other, right?
06:13<@planetmaker>Pikka, he might just need enable newgrf_show_old_versions in his cfg
06:13<@planetmaker>by default OpenTTD only offers the newest version of all grfs for selection
06:13<@planetmaker>which makes sense, if you have many, many, many versions of each
06:13<@peter1138>Pikka, why accommodate for a broken AI?
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06:14<Pikka>well, why should the AI accommodate for a "broken" newgrf? :)
06:14<Pikka>eg, the seaplanes that you can't start, which isn't something that an AI could or should predict will happen.
06:15<@planetmaker>AIs can query plane flight range. So NewGRFs don#t need to care about AIs there
06:15<Pikka>true, planetmaker. but they don't, so I may as well offer players a fix if I can.
06:15<Pikka>and like I said, it will make a lot of people happy anyway, so eh.
06:15<@peter1138>MEH
06:16<Pikka>MEHHH
06:16<@peter1138>a bit bucket of MEH
06:16<Pikka>MOO
06:16<@planetmaker>if you offer the switch for every player, AI or not, yes. Then it's a feature :-)
06:16<Pikka>three way parameter, ranges for everyone, no ranges for AI, no ranges for everyone
06:16<@planetmaker>(I mean one switch which just disables them... for all players at the same time)
06:16<@planetmaker>hm, or that :D
06:16<@peter1138>can you disable ranges just for AIs?
06:17<@planetmaker>query company_is_AI and then CB36 possibly
06:17<Pikka>yes
06:17<@planetmaker>not sure I like it :D
06:17<Pikka>:)
06:17<@peter1138>what is "query company_is_AI" ?
06:17<Pikka>well, in theory, company_is_AI shouldn't work any more, should it? but it does ;)
06:17<@planetmaker>the written name for a hex variable I don't care to look up
06:18<Pikka>I use it to give AIs bonus stats in UKRS2
06:18<@peter1138>hmm
06:18<@peter1138>naughty cheating
06:18<Pikka> Player info (43)
06:18<Pikka>Format: Ccttmmnn
06:18<Pikka>tt value Meaning
06:18<Pikka>0 Player is human player (permanent company)
06:18<Pikka>1 Player is AI player (not managed)
06:18<Pikka>2 Not supported by OpenTTD Supported by TTDPatch 2.52.5 Player is a human managing an AI company
06:18<Pikka>3 Not supported by OpenTTD Supported by TTDPatch 2.52.5 Player is human player's original company, now temporarily AI controlled
06:19<@planetmaker>naughty, yes. cheating, yes. But in the interested of players possibly :-P
06:19<Pikka>even with the bonuses most AIs go bankrupt quickly using UKRS2 :)
06:19<Pikka>because they try to drive railways straight up mountains
06:20<Pikka>the poorer AIs run underpowered trains which stall and choke
06:20<Pikka>the "smarter" AIs build nonuple-headed trains that kill them with running costs
06:20<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/fixbug.diff
06:20<@peter1138>yes
07:00<@planetmaker>Pikka, it's generally the case that AIs so far quite some room for improvement when it comes to supporting trains.
07:01<@planetmaker>+offer
07:02<@planetmaker>so I'd not consider it a particular problem with any of your train newgrfs :-)
07:02<Bonez305>how much ram does it take to run a server ?
07:04<@planetmaker>depends on your map size and NewGRFs. Same amount as it takes a client
07:04<@planetmaker>minus graphics... 256MB or 512MB are what my servers run with
07:04<@planetmaker>256MB proved slightly too little in certain circumstances
07:05<Bonez305>256x512 shouldnt take much eh ?
07:06<@planetmaker>that's about the sizes I run typically, too. Up to 512x1024
07:06<@planetmaker>at most
07:06<@planetmaker>The map itself is not the only memory eater. Vehicles and cargo can eat quite a bit, too :-)
07:07<Bonez305>I have a VPS setup for something else maybe I could throw a 256mb server up :D
07:08<@planetmaker>should not be a big issue with that. Just open the proper ports :-)
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07:24<__ln__>congratulations UK for finding the missing king.
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07:26<@peter1138>bit late to ask his opinion
07:27<__ln__>surely this is not the same Richard that arrives at the end of Robin Hood movies?
07:29<Pikka>no, it isn't __ln__
07:29<Pikka>assuming you're talking about dicky three in the carpark in leicester
07:30<__ln__>i am
07:31<Pikka>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_of_England vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_I_of_England
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07:34*Pikka has totally been to bosworth field
07:34<Pikka>it looks pretty much like a field
07:35<@peter1138>i've been to petersfield
07:36<@peter1138>it's not a field
07:36<@peter1138>it's also not mine
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07:36<Pikka>how rare
07:37<@peter1138>how square
07:37<Pikka>-4
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07:42*peter1138 grumbles about PSDs that won't load in Gimp
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07:57<Eddi|zuHause>so he ruled only for 2 years, what's all the fuzz about him, then?
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09:09<Eddi|zuHause>"Cookiemonster wants to return the golden Cookie that disappeared from Bahlsen headquarters a few weeks ago."
09:10<V453000>hm, I guess signal sprites cannot change based on orientation of rail?
09:10<V453000>like, // orientation of rail, but different scales
09:10<V453000>uphill, straight, downhill
09:11<V453000>as long as the track is in // orientation, signal X will always be drawn, right?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes
09:11<V453000>no way around that?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>same "problem" with one way road arrows
09:12<V453000>right
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>well the way "around" that would be to extend the grf specs to allow for providing the additional sprites
09:14<V453000>that would be awesome
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>but $someone has to code that
09:15<V453000>I figured that :)
09:27<V453000>hm
09:27<V453000>I wanted to put signals just like road signs on the tracks themselves
09:28<V453000>but looks like that breaks even worse in diagonals
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09:38<@peter1138>hi
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09:43<@Belugas>helo
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09:45<goodger>o/
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12:25<@Terkhen>hello
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12:35<oskari89>Could someone edit that diagonal clearing and levelling feature to 100% here: http://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features
12:36<oskari89>The page says it's protected and editing restricted to users
12:36<frosch123>you just have to login
12:36<frosch123>there is no annonymous editing
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12:37<frosch123>Supercheese: can you please give me the md5sums of the Seagulls1-5.wav
12:38<frosch123>i fixed grfcodec so it encodes and decodes container 2 soundfiles
12:38<frosch123>but the reencoded grf is bigger than the nml one
12:38<frosch123>so i do not know whether it is still broken, or whether nml is just better
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12:48<frosch123>Supercheese: i guess just post them at https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4895
12:51<frosch123>night
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13:33<__ln__>http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Google-s-C-library-for-B-tree-containers-1797174.html
13:35<@peter1138>quick, rewrite openttd
13:36<__ln__>yeah, that's what i was suggesting
13:36<@peter1138>ok
13:36<@peter1138>how about not?
13:37<__ln__>let me know when you have completed the rewrite tomorrow.
13:37<__ln__>please
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13:44<@peter1138>it's done
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24967 trunk/src/lang/danish.txt (2013-02-04 18:45:07 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>danish - 3 changes by Hellwing
13:46<__ln__>good work
13:46<__ln__>i guess you redesigned the map array while you were at it
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13:59<Supercheese>Hmm, I don't think I've ever actually cared about md5 sums before, I wonder how you go about calculating them...
14:00<__ln__>it's best to use a computer, i think it will be a bit too tedious with a pencil and paper.
14:00<NGC3982>bah, computers.
14:00<NGC3982>It's a fly.
14:01<Supercheese>my calculator could probably do it
14:01<Supercheese>it has a USB port and everything
14:01<Supercheese>TI-89 is a beast
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14:02<Ammler>do people still use calculators?
14:02<Supercheese>I use mine extensively, for university coursework
14:02<Ammler>I would have thought, they use pc with some math sw
14:02<@Belugas>yup, i do, i admit
14:02<Supercheese>they don't let you use PCs on exams ;)
14:03<NGC3982>Ammler: I do. I have trouble finding peace while on a PC.
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14:03<NGC3982>For some reason, it's hard not to do five things at the time.
14:03<NGC3982>A calculator forces a linear perspective on the task at hand (or at least more than a PC).
14:03<Ammler>hehe, well aren't newest calculators like pcs?
14:03*NGC3982 has not used any new TI
14:03<Supercheese>they don't let you use newest calculators either :P
14:04<NGC3982>TI-89 <3.
14:04<Supercheese>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ti-89
14:04<Supercheese>1998
14:04<Ammler>ah, so there exists a kind of whitelist?
14:04<Supercheese>yep
14:04<Supercheese>Well, technically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-89_Titanium#TI-89_Titanium
14:05<NGC3982>well, i have seen newer calculators that supports web browsing
14:05<Supercheese>I should port OTTD to the Ti-89
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14:05<Supercheese>they ported Tetris
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14:05<NGC3982>Thus: Calculator == Wikipedia+Wolfram Alpha
14:05<Supercheese>and several early Legends of Zeldas
14:05<NGC3982>Wich might be a bit much for an exam.
14:05<NGC3982>:D
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14:08<Supercheese>Yep, I think this is the first time I've ever intentionally calculated an md5 sum
14:12<Pikka>shh
14:16<oskari89>Eddi: Close adjacent level crossings patch, should that be on trunk?
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14:17<Supercheese>I think it's "close level crossings along reserved paths"
14:17<Supercheese>not necessarily "adjacent"
14:18<oskari89>Yes, but you got the idea :P
14:18<Supercheese>They are not at all the same thing
14:19<Supercheese>I would conjecture that the functionality of that patch is not in trunk, but I'm not 100% sure on that
14:21<Zuu>Supercheese: I wrote a drawing program for my TI-86 :-)
14:22<@peter1138>manually calculating an md5sum?
14:22<Supercheese>I think TI-Basic was my first venture into computer programming of any kind
14:22<Supercheese>peter1138: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4895#change-13226
14:23<@peter1138>oh you mean running m5sums on it
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14:32<oskari89>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=37448#p1000723
14:33<oskari89>Has somebody information about that 64 kb -> ? limit lifting on sound effects?`
14:33<Supercheese>There is no more limit
14:34<Supercheese>The devzone issue I linked to earlier deals with .wavs in my grf, some of which are 97 KB
14:34<Zuu>Is a solution to "allow clicking on town names in chat" broken if it fails when a town name is split over a line break in the chat display?
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14:37<Wolf01>moin
14:38*Zuu thinks yes and hope he can find a suitable solution
14:38<Ammler>Zuu: define "fails", work like now or scrollto the wrong location?
14:38<Ammler>s/work/not work/
14:38<Zuu>"fails" would be that it will not scroll at all.
14:39<Rubidium>Zuu: check the stuff that make sure the font and color are right?
14:39<Zuu>But I hope that I can get it to work also over line breaks. It only means that I need to work a bit harder :-)
14:40<Zuu>I do the encoding in NetworkAddChatMessage
14:40<andythenorth>Pikka: lo
14:40<Zuu>and for each chat message line I add a vector with click targets (tile indices)
14:40<Pikka>does it?
14:40<andythenorth>not sure
14:40<Pikka>k
14:40<andythenorth>never seen one in the wild
14:40<@peter1138>brup
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14:44<Pikka>charming
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14:46<andythenorth>rude
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14:51<Eddi|zuHause><Supercheese> they don't let you use PCs on exams ;) <-- and they do let you use all-purpose-programmable "calculators"? on what grounds do they make a difference?
14:51<Supercheese>I think it's QWERTY keyboards that are the "evil features"
14:52<Supercheese>I dunno how that works, but I'm not complaining
14:53<Eddi|zuHause><oskari89> Eddi: Close adjacent level crossings patch, should that be on trunk? <-- it needs some setting to not automatically switch it on for old games, as vehicles might crash unexpectedly when they are currently waiting "inside" of a level crossing
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14:53<Eddi|zuHause>and that setting should have the possibility of allowing diagonal crossings in mind [only when 'adjacent crossings' are enabled]
15:01<Pikka>what's 160km/h in old money?
15:01<Pikka>100, obv
15:03<Pikka>ein zusätzlicher Zwischenwagen
15:03<Pikka>german is such a melodic language...
15:09<@Belugas>that is exactly waht I tough last time i heard some Rammstein...
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's weird that so many modern singers think they need to sing in english
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15:10<Eddi|zuHause>although it has got better in the last ~10 years
15:11<Rubidium>you mean Lena and so on?
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's still easier to count the exceptions :)
15:14<Rubidium>Schnappy... that's fairly recent and German
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15:15<NGC3982>http://www.flickr.com/photos/appemobile/8445881070/in/photostream
15:15<NGC3982>So, this is my OpenTTD server.
15:16<NGC3982>It's a Optiplex PC mounted in a 1921 transistor radio chassie.
15:16<Supercheese>gotta love zip ties :)
15:17<NGC3982>Indeed!
15:17<NGC3982>The goal was to no longer use my HTPC as a torrent/OpenTTD server
15:17<NGC3982>And i hate having visible computers around.
15:18<NGC3982>I'm going to clean up and take some more pictures.
15:18<@peter1138>NGC3982,
15:18<@peter1138>1921... transistor radio...
15:18<@peter1138>so, er, is it 1921, or transistor?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: well there was a "german wave" around the 1960's, when they simply made translations to international songs (e.g. the Beatles sang in german), then there was a "new german wave" in the 80's, which includes people like Nena ("99 Luftballons"), and then there was a revival of german language songs around 2000 with two similar-in-style bands "Wir sind Helden" and "Silbermond", who were considered un-sellable by the major music
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>labels, but somehow turned into a success by themselves
15:21<@peter1138>NGC3982, or is "1921" a model number?
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't the transistor invented in the 70's or something?
15:22<NGC3982>peter1138: The radio is from 1921, but has been fitted with transistors.
15:22<@peter1138>1948
15:22<NGC3982>Sometime in the sixties, i think.
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>i guess i'm thinking of the microchip then
15:23<NGC3982>Though, i had an older radio of the same type with refitted tubes
15:23<NGC3982>But not original :(
15:23<@peter1138>it wouldn't've been widespread in 1948 of course
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>"integrated circuit"
15:24<__ln__>is rammstein part of a wave?
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: not really
15:24<@peter1138>NGC3982, what's the name on the tag?
15:24<@peter1138>singer
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15:26<NGC3982>peter1138: What tag.
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15:26<@peter1138>name plate
15:27<NGC3982>peter1138: What name plate?
15:27<@peter1138>nah
15:27<@peter1138>on the radio
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15:27<NGC3982>I have been unable to find any
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: singer is originally a brand name for sewing machines
15:28<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, quite
15:28<NGC3982>It's just stamped with "MONO 1921 SN, GERMANY"
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>but apparently they made radios as well :)
15:28<@peter1138>and the logo on the front?
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>http://sgbanknotes.blogspot.com/2011/03/vintage-singer-radio.html
15:29<NGC3982>Oh, here we are. It's a siemens
15:29<NGC3982>http://www.flickr.com/photos/appemobile/8432033187/in/photostream/lightbox/
15:29<NGC3982>That's the front.
15:29<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24968 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-04 20:29:38 UTC)
15:29<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5379]: company window was not updated when shared were enabled/disabled
15:29<@peter1138>yeah but your photo is not well focused
15:30<NGC3982>Ill make sure to upload some more pictures when i'm done.
15:30<NGC3982>"Lautstärke"
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>that means "volume"
15:30<NGC3982>It does? I thought it was "Amplifier".
15:31<NGC3982>..That might be the same thing.
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>"laut" = loud, noise, "stärke" = strength
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15:32<Eddi|zuHause>no idea how the english people found it sensible to say "volume"
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>for something that is not a 3-dimensional size
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15:33<Eddi|zuHause>but it is what you would find on a modern radio at the same button :)
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15:35<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: amplifier would be "Verstärker" [as in the device that amplifies]
15:35<NGC3982>I see :)
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15:37<__ln__>hmm, 'laut', 'loud' and swedish 'ljud' (sound) are perhaps the same word.
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>that seems plausible :p
15:38<ComLock>Whats the bare minimum to setup a matrix widget (for example, must there be a scrollbar with capacity...)
15:39<@peter1138>no
15:39<@peter1138>not as far as i know anyway
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>ComLock: no, scrollbars are separate
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>ComLock: an example of a matrix view you can find in the depot window (e.g. for road vehicles)
15:40<NGC3982>__ln__: No, it isn't.
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15:40<NGC3982>We do not have a explicit word for high volume, more than "high".
15:41<NGC3982>Högt ljud > "High sound"
15:41<NGC3982>Or something.
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15:41<@peter1138>High loud
15:41<NGC3982>In English: Loud != Sound?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: "Laut" [noun] can also be reffering to the sounds you can produce with your mouth
15:42<NGC3982>Or are we still talking german.
15:42<NGC3982>I see.
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: also "Gib Laut!" you would say to a dog to command him to bark
15:43<NGC3982>Literal translation: "Give loud!", then?
15:44<ComLock>Cause just adding an empty matrix widget with either minimalsize or resize set gets me an instant floating point exception
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>no, "loud" is an adjective, not a noun
15:44<Supercheese>loudness is the substantive
15:44<ComLock>Høy Lyd in norwegian
15:44<ComLock>Lav lyd
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: not what is meant here
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: that would be equivalent to "[die] Lautstärke" [=the volume], not to "[der] Laut" = {=the sound]
15:47<Zuu>Hmm, I got a problem with a std::vector that is member of as struct. There is a pointer to a list of this struct type that get initialized using ReallocT. My guess is that this doesn't initialize the std::vector correctly. Should I look for a std::vector replacement in OpenTTD that works with ReallocT or do I need to replace ReallocT with something else?
15:47<Zuu>s/as struct/a struct/
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>dict.leo.org also offers "phoneme" for "der Laut"
15:48<__ln__>NGC3982: i didn't say they mean precisely the same, just that they are the same word.
15:49<NGC3982>__ln__: And that, i understood.
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15:50<Eddi|zuHause>ComLock: i guess you need to set number of rows/columns somewhere
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>ComLock: obviously trying to stretch 0 rows over a width of non-zero is an easy way to get division-by-zero :)
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>ComLock: may also mean there are some asserts missing somewhere
15:53<ComLock>I'll start a new window from the bottom to learn this stuff
15:54<ComLock>properly
15:55<NGC3982>I think i have a decent setup on how to run multiple servers in squeeze right now.
15:57<Rubidium>yes, the 0.977 players per server should be spread even more ;)
15:57<NGC3982>Hey! The fun is in making the game.
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: is that statistics even valid? i doubt it counts servers that are clients vs. dedicated servers correctly
15:59<Rubidium>those I classify as players
15:59<NGC3982>Hey, those were actual statistics? :>
16:00<Rubidium>yes
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16:00<Eddi|zuHause>"Servers registered as on 2013-02-04 21:00:06 UTC. There are 246 clients, 256 IPv4 servers and 0 IPv6 servers."
16:01<NGC3982>Oh.
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't make a difference between dedicated and non-dedicated servers. that's why i ask
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>or are those counted as both clients and servers?
16:02<Rubidium>non-dedicated are server and client
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>ok
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>maybe that should be clarified somewhere
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>there's no 0.5.x server anymore
16:05<Zuu>I've added a SmallVector<TileIndex,4> to a struct which get initialized by ReallocT. Apparently the constructor of the SmallVector never get called. What is the propper way to ensure that the constructor is called? Is there a way to initialize the SmallVector manually or should I change the struct so that it contains a pointer to a SmallVector<TileIndex, 4> and loop through the list and create each SmallVector using "new"?
16:06<Rubidium>don't use the realloced struct?
16:07<Rubidium>I wonder whether there's a helper that does "new" though
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16:10<Zuu>From what I can see the chat list is initalized by this line:
16:10<Zuu>_chatmsg_list = ReallocT(_chatmsg_list, _settings_client.gui.network_chat_box_height);
16:11<Zuu>And I've added a SmallVector to the struct which is used for the _chatmsg_list type
16:11<Rubidium>the problem with using something like SmallVector in there, is that when it is reduced in size you'll lose memory
16:12<Zuu>Maybe I should just allocate a static array with X items and keep a size counter.
16:14<Rubidium>hmm... the chatmsg list is even worse as it moves stuff around, so it'd leak even harder
16:14<Rubidium>what are you trying to store exactly?
16:15<Rubidium>shouldn't you 'link' the TileIndex directly to the inserted string code (assuming you use that)?
16:15<Zuu>A list of tiles. The target tile to jump to when clicking on the click parameter that I've injected into the chat message.
16:16<Rubidium>i.e. hide it in the string
16:18<andythenorth>any FIRS translations lurking?
16:18<andythenorth>might do another release soon...
16:19<Zuu>Hmm, that could be an idea. For the moment I've used up space for some control codes (don't remember how many at the moment). But of course you could say that the 4 bits after a such control code is reserved for click data.
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: push the locations directly to the text stack?
16:20<Rubidium>Zuu: just add one UTF8 character after the control code for the click data
16:21<Rubidium>then you got up-to-32 bits of data. Might need to fudging when the number is 0 though
16:21<@peter1138>brain fail. i have an angle, and an x, i need to work work out the y
16:22<Rubidium>you need 1 extra data point (radius)
16:22<andythenorth>opp, adj, or hyp?
16:22<Zuu>Currently the control codes are encoded like this: Checkout {click1}town name{click1}, where I've built something really cool.
16:22<@peter1138>Rubidium, it's not a circle
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>y/x=tan(alpha)
16:22<@peter1138>right-angle triangle
16:22<andythenorth>sad old harry innit
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>assuming alpha is adjacent to x
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>so y=x*tan(alpha)
16:23<andythenorth>trawling off alaska
16:23<andythenorth>tan = opp / adj
16:24<andythenorth>what he said
16:24<andythenorth>with some faffing for radians and other crap that computers like to use
16:24<andythenorth>and some faffing for which way y goes
16:24<andythenorth>and where the angle 0' is
16:25<andythenorth>and whether it flips at 180 to -180 like some things
16:25<andythenorth>or has a full 360 like some other things
16:25<andythenorth>Flash was such fun :P
16:25<andythenorth>most Flash games are mostly a lot of atan(theta) in my experience :P
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>atan2 functions are fun :)
16:26<andythenorth>right, FIRS is done
16:26<andythenorth>for some value of 'done' :P
16:26<andythenorth>done for today, for example
16:26<goodger>:D
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>"it will never be changed anymore"
16:26<andythenorth>yeah, right :P
16:26<andythenorth>increasingly though....
16:26<andythenorth>changing some stuff would be a scary amount of work
16:27<Zuu>My point of using the same control code for both begin/end is two. 1) it needs less control codes to be allocated from the reserved UTF8 control characters. 2) More importantly, if ICU decide to swap the order of the control characters, ICU will not interfere with the parsing of the click parameters. Only if ICU decide to swap the location of eg {click1} and {click2}, then that may cause nested issues. If the 4 bytes after the first {click#} is u
16:27<Zuu>sed for data, then how do we ensure that ICU don't fuss with our data?
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>apparently NARS is "done" :p
16:27<andythenorth>NARS is done
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: "{CLICK}{LOCATION}some text{CLICK}" or "{CLICK}{WINDOW}some other text{CLICK}" to decide what should happen on click (including parameters etc.)
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: i'm not sure whether i entirely understand your issue, though
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16:33<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: That string will be parsed through ICU. There are 255? reserved {click1}, {click2} .. codes in a UTF8 character group that is reserved for control codes. ICU should respect these and not replace those when shaping text. However {LOCATION} above I assume will not be restricted to the realtively limited reseverd scope for control codes and thus use character values that ICU will think is letters.
16:33<Zuu>Thus when ICU tries to make arabic look better, it may accidently damage the location data.
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: but the {LOCATION} is only used internally to decide on the action taken, only {CLICK} is relevant in the processing of where it was clicked?
16:35<Zuu>ICU sometimes replace 2 symbols with one and does other interesting things.
16:35<Zuu>Only {click#} is used by DoReallyDrawString to determine which parameter that was clicked.
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>i have the feeling you're not properly separating display and functionality
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>or i have really not understood what you're trying to do
16:38<@Terkhen>good night
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16:39<@peter1138>hmm
16:40<Zuu>well, my approach have been to make the string system parameter click detection generic enough to allow control codes be inserted not just for parameters from translation strings or for just tiles. My understanding of the ICU-stuff have been that I need to inject control codes into the string that tell when a parameter start/end as even if I detect the character # which is clicked, ICU change string length etc. so that is not the same character #
16:40<Zuu> as in the string passed to DrawString.
16:41<Zuu>My long term plan is to use this in the StoryBook, but before doing automatic control code insertion in strings passed by GSes etc, I though that making town names in chat messages would be a useful feature that uses part of the infrastructure that is needed for the later goal.
16:44<andythenorth>[would be useful yes]
16:45<Zuu>The idea to let the string carry the tile index of towns in for the chat messages is really good. I like it, however I fear that ICU may alter the data and thus making it too fragile.
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16:46<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: so you parse the chat string, and insert a {TOWN}?
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>then you want to make this {TOWN} clickable by your infrastructure?
16:48<@peter1138>ICU is for input
16:48<@peter1138>isn't it?
16:49<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: I don't insert a {TOWN} into the chat string. I insert a {click#} before/after the town name.
16:49<Zuu>The chat string is a char* buffer
16:52<Zuu>peter1138: DrawString calles HandleBiDiAndArabicShapes which calles ICU to make some arabic stuff look better.
16:56<oskari89>Andythenorth: Could you do some 3000 m3/3000t freight ship to FISH?
16:57<andythenorth>no
16:57<Supercheese>Just add more ships
16:58<Supercheese>same effect; ships have infinite route capacity
16:58<@peter1138>unrealistic!!!!!!!!111111111111111
16:58<oskari89>Because even those little small http://www.smu.fi/@Bin/2568350/parkko12.jpg ships have about 2000t capacity
16:59<Supercheese>FISH has added some new ships in nightlies, which version are you using?
16:59<oskari89>That is a push-tugboat though
17:00<Supercheese>Yeah, andy was planning on push-tugboats, but comments like peter1138's a few above kept popping up in the thread
17:00<Supercheese>drama ensued and I dunno what's going to happen now
17:00<oskari89>0.92
17:00<Supercheese>(not that peter was one of the ones causing the drama in that case, just example)
17:03<Supercheese>[Basically from http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=44613&start=460#p955750 to http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=44613&start=500#p956266]
17:03<Supercheese>anyway
17:05<Supercheese>It seems the biggest freighter in FISH is 1,408t and the biggest tanker is 1.8 million liters
17:06<Supercheese>and the largest ferry is 2,400 passengers (!)
17:06<andythenorth>PAX get busy
17:06<andythenorth>why do you need a 3,000t freighter?
17:06<Supercheese>verily
17:07<Supercheese>surely 2x 1,400t freighters is more than enough, eh?
17:07<Supercheese>or 3x, or 4x...
17:07<Supercheese>not even old-FIRS with the constant positive-feedback went quite that high :P
17:08<Supercheese>FISH is amazing, I tried to draw ships and failed miserably
17:09<andythenorth>bed
17:09<andythenorth>bye
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17:11<Supercheese>anyway oskari89, you can update to a newer version of FISH here http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/fish/nightlies/
17:11<Supercheese>0.9.2. is Very Old™
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>surely 640k memory are more than enough, eh?
17:14<Supercheese>the point is that you can keep adding indefinitely
17:14<Supercheese>well, unless your computer starts lagging
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>or unless someone implements loading only one single ship per dock
17:15<Supercheese>that would be nasty
17:15<Supercheese>break my playstyle :P
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>(obviously having multi-stop-docks then would be helpful :p)
17:16*NGC3982 whines a bit on Souncloud.
17:19<NGC3982>https://soundcloud.com/sibirish_musik/appe-longshanks-from-the
17:19<NGC3982>It has become a service that does not pay itself.
17:19<NGC3982>70-120USD/year for the bigger services is ..way off the charts.
17:19<Supercheese>invalid link
17:20-!-ComLock [~chrisw@cC165BF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:20<NGC3982>https://soundcloud.com/sibirish_musik/appe-longshanks
17:20<NGC3982>That too?
17:20<Supercheese>"Sorry! We can’t find that. Did you try to access a private sound, but were not logged in? Maybe the resource has been removed. "
17:20<NGC3982>Hm, maybe it's not done yet.
17:20<Supercheese>now it works
17:21<NGC3982>Yey.
17:21<Supercheese>guess there was a lag time
17:21<NGC3982>Yeah, guess so
17:21*NGC3982 uploads moar.
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>it works here, it seems
17:21<Wolf01>night all
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17:22<Eddi|zuHause>not really my style of music, though
17:25<+michi_cc>Zuu: Running the constructor of an already allocated C++ object can be done with placement new (e.g. "new (some_pointer) Class()"), but this won't help you when Realloc is used to resize an array. Basically, if you have non-pod types (mostly everything with a constructor) you must use new/delete and not malloc/free.
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17:29<@peter1138>bah, nearly works but jumps on the corners :S
17:30<Zuu>michi_cc: Thanks for your explanation. That is somewhat what I expected. Eg. either initalize with new or don't try to hack your way around it.
17:32<NGC3982>And: https://soundcloud.com/sibirish_musik/atwino-tao-2007
17:32<NGC3982>That will be enough for tonight.
17:37<+michi_cc>Zuu: There are array new and delete ("new Class[10]", "delete [] p"), but there's (unfortunately) no direct replacement for realloc. But for your specific problem you could also switch to using either std::vector or SmallVector to store the chat message list (SmallVector would need placement new/delete, e.g. "new (vec->Append()) Class()" and "vec[i]->~Class()").
17:39<Zuu>In this case I've switched to allocating a fixed size array in the vector. There is usually eg. 5 chat lines in the game. Currently I allocate space for 255 parameters for each line which is probably a bit of overkill and could be reduced to eg. 20 without any real limit other than that I need some more checks to not overrrun the limit.
17:43<+michi_cc>I'd simply refactor that to use either std::vector or std::list for storage. std::list has the advantage that some core headers already include it so it is already available in most files.
17:44<+michi_cc>And if you can iterate instead of doing direct access performance is the same anyway.
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17:56*Zuu misses arrow up/down to recall previous chat message in OpenTTD :-)
17:57<Zuu>At least I got a random town "Chathill city" in my game :-)
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: duplicate the "history" feature of the console?
17:59<Zuu>I could do that. I wonder if there is a good usage of it other than for testing the chat feature. Maybe I should just record a keyboard macro to write a debug chat message.
18:01<Zuu>Or just use the "say" console command.
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18:36<Eddi|zuHause>https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/529680_326140357506691_1408033971_n.jpg
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>[german]
18:37<__ln__>really, i thought it was lion speak
18:38<__ln__>a good one in any case
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18:40<Eddi|zuHause>...except there is no (natural) elevated position near Leipzig where you could have a view over the city :p
18:42<__ln__>...but there of course are speaking lions
18:44<__ln__>for people who can remember the concept of "landline" and "modem": https://hackadaycom.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/dial-up-handshake-infographic.png
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>a friend of mine had a modem which outputted the connection noise
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>i started with ISDN, though
18:46-!-KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:47<__ln__>whether a modem outputs the noise during initialization / never / always is adjustable with an AT command. sadly i don't remember which one it is.
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it was configurable somewhere
18:48<__ln__>i've even forgotten what was the AT command for saving current settings
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18:53<Zuu>As far as a screenshot goes for demonstrating interactions: http://devs.openttd.org/~zuu/goal-gui/click-town-names-in-chat.png :-)
18:54<Zuu>It works when town names get split over a line break. It works with multiple town names in the same chat message in any order.
18:54<Zuu>Now I think its time to clean it up and get a first patch published (another day)
18:54<__ln__>is there some kind of auto-complete?
18:54<Zuu>trunk auto complete town names already
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: yes, you can tab-complete
18:55<Zuu>my current implementation uses memcmp to test town names, but going for a case-insensitive solution is probably a good idea.
18:55<__ln__>i see.. well, i play multiplayer once in three years so i can't know all the new stuff.
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>i guess station names would be tricky, as they are translated [and somewhat overlap with town names]
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i don't play multiplayer either :)
18:57<Zuu>I don't know if its a feature, but with the current implementation, you can still click on a town even if someone ranemed it after you received the chat message. :-)
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: maybe it would still make sense to encode the town-id in the string instead of handling plain-text, then the parsing could be done on the sending client
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18:58<Eddi|zuHause>of course you'd then have to make more validations on receiving the chat string (from the "evil" internet)
19:01<Zuu>My main point against that is that you must encode the town id in a such way that ICU cannot think that your town ID is a text character that it may want to replace with a better looking character.
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean on the internal side, not what you print on the screen
19:04<Zuu>hmm, yes you could make DrawString strip out that data from the string before calling ICU.
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19:05<Eddi|zuHause>then you can add sugar to the chat where it automatically uses the translated name of stations and stuff
19:06<Zuu>yes indeed
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19:07<Eddi|zuHause>(and add the vehicle icons to indicate it's a station)
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>(still needs a method to determine whether the user meant the town, or the station with the town's name)
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: have you thought about applying this method to the subsidy news?
19:11<Zuu>Nope, but it can probably applied there too once the framework is there.
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19:45<@peter1138>hmm
19:45<@peter1138>most of the time nobody types the name in properly anyway
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>they might start to use tab-completion better if they see a useful effect :)
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>maybe instead of tab-completition it should auto-suggest the completition :)
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20:11<Bonez305>how do I go about setting up a server on a VPS ?
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20:21<Eddi|zuHause>"openttd -D"
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20:46*Supercheese wonders whether he should "cheat" by distant-joining stations rather than trying to build a new junction
20:47<Supercheese>I like having stations visually close to the cargo source, but sometimes that's just not practical
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20:54<Eddi|zuHause>make a feeder service
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 05 00:00:35 2013