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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-08

---Logopened Fri Feb 08 00:00:39 2013
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03:05<Supercheese>Anyone on here that has played with my Eyecandy Road vehicles grf, specifically the Horse & Rider?
03:05<Supercheese>I'm looking for some feedback
03:05*peter1138 puts a microphone in front of Supercheese' speakers
03:06<Supercheese>External feedback. Also, ow, my ears.
03:06<Supercheese>Hmm, adjective "external" still insufficient
03:06<Supercheese>Y'all know what I mean
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03:41<Supercheese>No 1.3.0-beta2 announce yet?
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03:52<andythenorth>wot no pikka pokka?
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06:19<Eddi|zuHause>(i somehow doubt these words are etymologically related this time :P)
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07:18<@planetmaker>hm... openttd bootstrap seems to download zbase. I thought it would download OpenGFX?
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07:19<@planetmaker>was that changed (current trunk checkout)?
07:24<@planetmaker>he, great. and after 275MB download I get a memory access failure...
07:24<@planetmaker>rather segfault
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07:39<@planetmaker>hm, only an issue with bootstrap. Subsequently it works just fine...
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>how does the bootstrap work anyway? client says "i'm missing a baseset, bananas give me one" - and bananas says "hmm, today i'm feeling like zbase"?
07:43<@planetmaker>Honestly, I don't know
07:44<@planetmaker>But as it's afaik not explicitly specified... it might indeed work like that
07:50<@planetmaker>first entry in available content package seems to be selected. So it depends on what the bananas server sends
07:55<@planetmaker>same actually as OpenTTD selects a random one when no specific base set is specified... maybe it should check them for completeness of sprites. Big hassle though
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08:58<Eddi|zuHause>"According to Fox news, solar energy works in Germany so much better than in America, because they get much more sun"
08:59<fjb_mobile>The Fox News version of truth...
09:00<Flygon>Please, give me a brick
09:00<Flygon>I want to commit suicide with a brick >_>
09:00<Flygon>Because that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard
09:07<@planetmaker>sounds totally convincing, Eddi|zuHause ;-) Especially when I look out of the window right now :D
09:07<blathijs>I wanted to say that it's probably true for some parts of the US, but Google Maps tells me that all of the US is at the same longitude or lower than Germany, so that's not it :-)
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: germany has about the same input of direct solar energy as alaska
09:08<@planetmaker>you surely mean lattitude, not longitude ;-). And lattitude... has mostly an impact on the annular distribution
09:09<@planetmaker>barring weather, ofc
09:10<fjb_mobile>There was a study some time ago that showed that people watching Fox News had less knowledge about the world than people who were watching no news at all.
09:10<@planetmaker>yup, read that :-) Amused me
09:10<blathijs>planetmaker: Ah, I always confused the two
09:12<Flygon>Eddi: I am disapppointed Australia isn't on that map :P
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>nobody cares about australia :p
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09:23<Flygon>Eddi: In this case, we have a fantastic sunlight map
09:23<Flygon>90% of the country is basically a giant Arizona
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09:27<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: we have such a thing much closer... it's called Sahara
09:27<Flygon>It's not as politically suitable, either
09:28<Flygon>Where would you rather build a gigantic mass of solar panels?
09:28<Flygon>Across a zone that's split across lots of small poor politically questionable countries?
09:28<Flygon>Or a giant island that's a single nation that has no real economic or social issues?
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>well, the current idea is to spread out the solar plants across as many north african countries as possible, to make political impact lower
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>and then draw the power cable through italy
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09:33<Pinkbeast>Also if you split it between multiple countries they have to form a cartel to screw you on price.
09:35<Endymion_Mallorn>Hi, I just installed 1.2.3 on a new machine and went looking for one of my favorite NewGRFs - NUTS Unrealistic Train Set. It is not downloadable in the Online Content screen, despite it being in BaNaNaS ( Does anyone know why this might happen?
09:37<+michi_cc>Install 1.3.0 beta, 1.2.3 is too old for NUTS.
09:40<Flygon>Eddi: Oh. Right. I thought the power was being generated for local purposes...
09:40<Endymion_Mallorn>How stable is it, all joking aside? I'm not looking to have the game crash on me. Like, ever.
09:40<Flygon>Here, we forget there's such a thing as "International electricity trade"
09:40<Flygon>Because it's impossible to perform in Australia, PNG exempted
09:42<+michi_cc>Endymion_Mallorn: You won't get that guarantee for any version, but the beta shouldn't be any worse than 1.2.3.
09:43<Endymion_Mallorn>Alright. So it's either go to the Beta or just get to the old machine and pull the folder off there with my USB drive, basically. Thanks.
09:44<+michi_cc>Somebody forgot to update the topic... Let's see if I can remember the DorpsGek command ;)
09:44<+michi_cc>@topic get 1
09:44<@DorpsGek>michi_cc: 1.2.3, 1.3.0-beta1
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>Endymion_Mallorn: if you have an old savegame, you should be able to pull the appropriate version that savegame used from bananas
09:44<+michi_cc>@topic set 1 1.2.3, 1.3.0-beta2
09:44-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.3, 1.3.0-beta2 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
09:46<Endymion_Mallorn>Eddi: Getting a savegame and getting the whole newGRF would involve the same sneakernet process.
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably true :)
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>on other notes: what's with the Brits' obsession with horse meat lately?
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>they should be glad there's any meat at all in these products :p
09:49<Pinkbeast>It's only a matter of time before Dobbin starts turning up in veggieburgers
09:49<Endymion_Mallorn>Hrm. I 'unno. Alright, thanks all. have a good day.
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12:52<@planetmaker>hi Alberth
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13:06<@Alberth>I wonder whether I should tell about light not being visible like in the second picture :)
13:07<@planetmaker>he :-)
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14:22<@Alberth>hi di hi!
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14:50*Sacro is saddened by Pikka
14:51<Pikka>trust me, shami kebab.
14:51<Pikka>I probably know what I'm doing!
14:51<Wolf01>Sacro is saddled by Pikka
14:52<Sacro>Pikka: probably?
14:53<Sacro>I love UKRS :(
14:53<Sacro>And TAI
14:53<Pikka>well, UKRS will still be there :)
14:53<Sacro>now i followed your naming conventions
14:54<Sacro>just last weekend I went out on an EE 'AL6' and a 4-6-2
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14:55<Pikka>lucky you :P
14:56<Sacro>well nice
14:56<Supercheese>Isn't the 75 year anniversary of the steam speed record this year?
14:57<NGC3982>You don't celebrate records.
14:57<NGC3982>You beat them.
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>haven't there been like 75 different steam speed records?
14:58<NGC3982>I was just reading up on my literature collecting, and i noticed something i laughed a fair bit at.
14:58<Supercheese>I mean the British A4 125 mph record
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>certainly we have the fastest operational steam engine over here
14:58<NGC3982>Back in 1980, Bill Gates bought the original Codex Leicester by da Vinci, for 30.8 million US dollars.
14:58<Supercheese>German record was basically the same, like 124 mph, and German steamers' average stop to stop speeds were higher IIRC
14:59<NGC3982>He then scanned it and included it with Microsoft Plus! for Windows 95.
14:59<NGC3982>Money well spent.
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14:59<Pikka>onion of seth efrica, hm? :)
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15:02<Pikka>there he is now
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15:16<Pikka>or perhaps he isn't
15:16<Supercheese>He may be only 10%
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15:26<Eddi|zuHause>if only 10% of andythenorth were here, it would be an, or th
15:26<andythenorth>Pikka ponk
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15:27<andythenorth>so onions?
15:27<Supercheese>I think a better measuring metric for andythenorth presence is TFT [Time to First Troll]
15:28<andythenorth>Pikka: btw I don't like onions, but that's an aside
15:28<Pikka>talk about 10CC then :)
15:28<Pikka>do you like 10CC?
15:29<Supercheese>10 cm³ may be a tad small
15:29<Supercheese>model trains?
15:29<andythenorth>Pikka: yes I probly like 10CC
15:30<andythenorth>2 mins, food, wife sad if I don't eat it
15:30<Pikka>dreadlock holiday and all that
15:30<Pikka>I have to go, back in an hour or two
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15:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24980 trunk/src/strings.cpp (2013-02-08 20:31:51 UTC)
15:31<@DorpsGek>-Fix: memory leak in corner case of handling encoded strings
15:32<LordAro>evening all
15:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24981 trunk/src/strings.cpp (2013-02-08 20:32:56 UTC)
15:33<@DorpsGek>-Fix: handle corner case where an encoded string contains too many parameters more gracefully
15:34<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r24982 /trunk/src/script/api (13 files in 3 dirs) (2013-02-08 20:34:27 UTC)
15:34<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5465]: [Script] Crash when passing too many parameters
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15:42<Eddi|zuHause>so that's like the reversal of my newgrf error :)
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15:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so vehicle R&D....?
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no way :p
15:53<Supercheese>implement in the newgrf..?
15:53<Supercheese>Would be feasible-ish
15:53<andythenorth>don't care about where to implement
15:53<andythenorth>is it good?
15:53<Supercheese>More importantly, is anyone motivated to code it
15:53<Supercheese>'good' is relative
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i haven't seen any good concept yet
15:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: me neither
15:54<andythenorth>is knowing the forthcoming vehicles a meta-sploit? :P
15:54<Supercheese>Hmm, I think there's a lack of variables for an R&D implementation
15:54<andythenorth>or is learning the game just 'learning the game'
15:54<andythenorth>in can play without knowing the maps
15:54<andythenorth>but you lose
15:55<andythenorth>you learn the maps
15:55<andythenorth>you win
15:55<andythenorth>you have to know where the keys are, where the powerups are, where the monsters are
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16:09<Eddi|zuHause>i was always running along the walls trying to find secret doors ;)
16:11<LSky`>im trying to compile openttd using mingw, i intend to patch the client after i figure out how to, what method should i use to obtain the openttd source code?
16:12<andythenorth>any secret doors in ottd?
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>LSky`: svn if you don't want to program larger patches yourself, hg or git otherwise
16:12<LSky`>'program larger patches' meaning?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: does scenario_developer count? :)
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>LSky`: if you have to ask, then it's probably a "no" :p
16:14<LSky`>so i should use tortoise svn, or something like that?
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>that should work
16:14<andythenorth>secret doors would be more like 'provide service for this town and unlock a new engine'
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16:36<andythenorth>where is pikka to then?
16:37<andythenorth>herp, what's that faster python called?
16:38<andythenorth>wonder if it makes nml faster
16:38<andythenorth>I can't be bothered to get it and figure out how to virtualenv it
16:38<andythenorth>but I should :P
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16:47<andythenorth>meh, pypy buildout segfaults
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17:07<@peter1138>python written in python?
17:08<andythenorth>python written in 'faster' :P
17:11<andythenorth>averaged across a number of programs, it benchmarks apparently at 5.6 times faster
17:11*Pikka is back or so
17:11<andythenorth>even 2x faster for nmlc would be a significant reduction in 'meh, waiting'
17:11<andythenorth>hello or so
17:12<Pikka>r&d is yuck
17:12<andythenorth>so 10CC?
17:12<Pikka>complexity is yuck
17:12<Pikka>yes, 10CC
17:12<andythenorth>probably good right?
17:13<Pikka>so what about 10CC? :P
17:14<andythenorth>sounds ok
17:14<andythenorth>I like most of your stuff
17:14<andythenorth>so why not eh?
17:15<andythenorth>there has been too much "more"
17:15<andythenorth>there should be some "less"
17:19<andythenorth>maybe I should start BANDIT again
17:19<Pikka>of course, I'll need peter1138 to write me a buy-menu-selection callback. ;)
17:19<andythenorth>what for though?
17:19<andythenorth>maybe we need less callbacks too
17:19<andythenorth>or fewer
17:19<Pikka>amongst other things, so we can play a game where you use british trains and I use american ones
17:20<andythenorth>yeah that
17:20<andythenorth>that's what I want to do with BANDIT
17:20<andythenorth>it was an Original Goal For The Set
17:20<Pikka>I can already make it so you can't start american trains and I can't start british ones, but removing them from the buylist altogether would be so much cleaner
17:21<andythenorth>so is this what I get for asking for more diesels in UKRS 2? :P
17:21<Pikka>and it's not as if different players having different buylists doesn't already exist in TTD, ie the prototype designs
17:21<Pikka>:P maybe
17:21<andythenorth>hey ho
17:21<andythenorth>still, I think there's a game balance / boredom issue once we hit 200x
17:22<andythenorth>HEQS has same, so will BANDIT
17:22<Pikka>well, then you stop playing once you hit 200x. ;)
17:22<andythenorth>yeah that
17:22<andythenorth>play 1870-2010, then go to sleep
17:22<andythenorth>1905-2005? :P
17:22<Pikka>10CC starts 1900, and even then you only get one loco per set
17:23<andythenorth>how evil
17:23<Pikka>1920 to start with two
17:23<Pikka>19th century is boring
17:23<Pikka>slow trains
17:23<Pikka>no RVs
17:23<Pikka>no aircraft
17:23<andythenorth>very slow ships
17:23<Pikka>and to be "realistic" you have to start with half the industries missing
17:24<Pikka>trams are yuck
17:24<andythenorth>also the industry problem smells
17:24<andythenorth>it smells in FIRS
17:24<Pikka>I coded one industry for TaI/Gecko/whatever
17:24<Pikka>and since I started testing it I've stripped out about 50% of the code as entirely unnecessary
17:25<Pikka>I think I have about another 25% to go :)
17:25<andythenorth>what's gone / what's left?
17:25<Pikka>I had a whole thing where the industry had an internal "balance" and would shut down/upgrade depending on how much "money" it had
17:25<andythenorth>oh yeah that
17:25<andythenorth>you liked that
17:26<Pikka>that's all gone
17:26<andythenorth>probably for the best
17:26<andythenorth>production change over time?
17:26<Pikka>will possibly still be there, but a /lot/ simpler than I originally planned
17:26<andythenorth>I'm stealing it
17:26<andythenorth>so it might not be there :P
17:26<andythenorth>if I've burgled it
17:27<Pikka>also, starting in 1900 means
17:27<Pikka>oil industries, indeed all industries, from the start
17:27<andythenorth>easier right?
17:27<Pikka>"gasworks" can go and just be a power station with earlier graphics
17:27<andythenorth>no fucking around with broken chains
17:27<andythenorth>no fucking around trying to figure out how to cripple some industries
17:28<Pikka>all in all, I want to gamify and simplify
17:29<andythenorth>no model trainset?
17:31<andythenorth>alright, so you have a trains plan, fine. Trains can have more or fewer wagons and crap, and you can build the route to suit performance and such
17:31<andythenorth>RVs are simple
17:32<andythenorth>I should just figure BANDIT out
17:32<andythenorth>but planes and boats?
17:32<andythenorth>what do you do with AV8?
17:32<andythenorth>what do I do with FISH 2?
17:32<Pikka>not quite worked that out yet
17:32<andythenorth>nah me neither
17:33<andythenorth>FIRS gives AV8 helicopters and small planes a cargo role
17:33<andythenorth>but only one helicopter and 2 plane types are needed for that
17:33<andythenorth>and how many big planes are useful?
17:33<andythenorth>737 / jumbo / concorde?
17:33<Pikka>for av9, it's probably just a progression from little and slow to biggish and fast
17:33<andythenorth>time progression, or model progression?
17:34<Pikka>the decision is "aircraft" vs "train", an additional decision between "aircraft" is largely unnecessary
17:34<Pikka>model progression, no generational stats :P
17:35<andythenorth>so how many plane types in any given year?
17:35<andythenorth>2, 3?
17:35<Pikka>obviously the models have to overlap somewhat, but it will usually be the case that the newest is always the "best".
17:36<andythenorth>I think for planes capacity is a factor
17:36<andythenorth>but only small | big
17:36<andythenorth>1 chopper, 2 planes, done
17:36<Pikka>yes, perhaps late game there will be a turboprop for smaller routes or something, and helicopters of course
17:36<Pikka>but overall, yep, that's about the size of it
17:36<andythenorth>herp ships
17:37<andythenorth>stupid autorefit :)
17:37<andythenorth>FISH was small
17:37<andythenorth>FISH 2 got needlessly big
17:37<andythenorth>due to Tankers Must Be Model Types
17:38<andythenorth>so 29 ships in 1972
17:38<Pikka>that's a few too many, I think
17:39<andythenorth>about 20 too many
17:39<Pikka>perhaps about 25 too many
17:39<andythenorth>especially if I could figure out the player-gets-ship-types thing
17:39<andythenorth>so player 1 gets canal boats
17:39<andythenorth>player 2 gets sea ships
17:39<Pikka>does that even make sense?
17:40<andythenorth>dunno, haven't tried it :)
17:40<Pikka>anyway, I think whatever you do, FISH is going to be a larger set than I would design under my new regime ;)
17:40<andythenorth>I am too sentimental
17:40<andythenorth>I like the weird things like the log tug
17:41<andythenorth>otherwise it's all a bit...sterlie
17:41<andythenorth>sterile :P
17:41<andythenorth>fingers fingers
17:41<Pikka>well, one thing I may not have mentioned, and may write another blog post about...
17:41<Pikka>aside from the lengthwise shortening, which is unavoidable
17:42<Pikka>I'm abandoning TTD's crappy mis-shapen diagonals and drawing vehicles properly
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17:43<Pikka>which means that everything has to be drawn from scratch
17:43<andythenorth>will they still be teeny-tiny?
17:43<Pikka>a factor in not wanting to do many vehicles, you think? ;)
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17:43<Pikka>the - and | views remain the same size
17:43<Pikka>the diagonal views look bigger
17:44<andythenorth>well if you're doing that, it saves me redrawing HEQS
17:44<andythenorth>which I drew wrong, from ignorance :P
17:44<Pikka>you drew right, from ignorance? ;)
17:44<andythenorth>I just drew how I thought it should be
17:44<andythenorth>might be right or wrong :P
17:44<andythenorth>no tankers gets FISH 2 down to 22
17:45<andythenorth>ships have a capacity issue that I just can't get around
17:45<andythenorth>and pax and freight ships are just different
17:45<Pikka>what capacity issue?
17:46<andythenorth>big ones and small ones are needed
17:46<andythenorth>and running 10x small one is dull
17:46<Pikka>if I were doing ships
17:46<andythenorth>do mine
17:46<andythenorth>I have the graphics :P
17:46<andythenorth>and the code generator :P
17:46<Pikka>you don't have sailing ships
17:46<andythenorth>they smell
17:46<andythenorth>and are dead by 1900
17:47<Pikka>except they aren't
17:47<@peter1138>just make them collide
17:47<andythenorth>well someone was drawing sails
17:47<@peter1138>in newgrf
17:47<Pikka>they were still building new pure-sail merchant ships in the 20th century
17:48<Pikka>they were still running in commercial service up til the 1950s
17:48<Pikka>anyway, who cares about realism? ;)
17:48<andythenorth>drawing sails, meh
17:48<andythenorth>assume no sails :P
17:48<andythenorth>then what?
17:48<Pikka>anyway, if I were doing ships, I'd have "ships" and "ferries"
17:48<andythenorth>I have that, plus 'stuff'
17:49<Pikka>ships are slow and big and carry stuff, ferries are small and fast and carry pax/mail (both would be nice, where's articulated ships?)
17:50<andythenorth>and you'd use same boats for canals / rivers, and for sea?
17:50<Pikka>a sailing ship from 18whatever, steam from, eh, 1925, diesel from 1960, maybe a "modern" for 1990s or so, that's 4
17:51<andythenorth>too many ships in FISH 2 are there because of a nice photo
17:51<andythenorth>or because it was easy to copy-paste-shorten something already drawn
17:52<Pikka>ferries you've got a steamer from 19whatever, maybe another in the 30s, hovercraft, catermaran
17:52<Pikka>maybe if you want a utility boat you can have one, steam early, diesel later, that's 2
17:52<Pikka>10 ships, do you need more?
17:52<andythenorth>I probably do
17:52<@peter1138>200 ships
17:52<@peter1138>with short lives
17:52<andythenorth>I'm not ready to be that ruthless yet :)
17:52<@peter1138>cos they sink
17:53<Pikka>I am :]
17:53<andythenorth>sinking ftw
17:53<andythenorth>I like editing stuff down
17:53<Pikka>you sink, peter
17:53<andythenorth>FIRS Basic is kind of better than big FIRS
17:53<Pikka>where's my buylist callback? ;)
17:53<andythenorth>is it not done yet>
17:53<andythenorth>Pikka: cbs are easy
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>wtf does 10CC mean anyway?
17:53<andythenorth>do it yourself
17:53<Pikka>maybe I will
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>sounds awfully confusable to 2CC
17:53<andythenorth>just search for the climate availability stuff and mash it in there
17:53<Pikka>I just figure peter could do it easier since he already has the knowhow and whatnot :)
17:54<andythenorth>he just makes it up too
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17:54<Pikka>10CC UK buylist is
17:54<Pikka>Victoria Crab Jubilee Class 37 Class 66 Class 86 Class 92 MetCam HST ElectroStar
17:54<andythenorth>is the name a dirty joke?
17:54<Pikka>not at all
17:54<andythenorth>I'm going to make 5CC
17:54<@peter1138>10 company colours?
17:55<Pikka>10 company coloured locos, or something
17:55<andythenorth>Jinty, Pannier, Ivatt, Class 20, Class BLAH I DON'T KNOW
17:55*andythenorth likes small trains
17:55*Supercheese likes FISH with all its ships
17:55<Pikka>well, the "flavour" of the UK trains is that they're fast but relatively unpowerful
17:56<Pikka>if you want small and slow, there are other 10CC sets for that ;)
17:56<andythenorth>and AUARS!
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: my point was for every fast expensive train there should be also a strong slow one and a slow cheap one
17:56<Pikka>10CC Pineapple is good
17:57<Pikka>fastest non-electric is 60mph
17:57<Pikka>fastest non-emu is 65 ;)
17:57<Supercheese>I have FISH r953, year 1899 and I'm using 8/12 ship models available
17:58<Supercheese>the diversity is desirable, IMO
17:58<andythenorth>Supercheese: but by 2000, in FISH 2 there are 38 ships available
17:58<andythenorth>all different
17:58<andythenorth>but meh
17:58<Pikka>Eddi: why?
17:59<Supercheese>Well, the two hydrofoils are straight upgrades, and then the catamaran comes out and it's inferior in every way almost
17:59<Supercheese>I dunno why you could use the catamaran...
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17:59<Pikka>if every set has fast expensive and strong slow and slow cheap
17:59<Supercheese>but I end most games before 1990 anyway :S
17:59<andythenorth>Supercheese: cheaper, more pax, but yes
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: because you're going to have passenger service, freight service and feeder service in your game, and an engine suitible for one may not be suitible for the others
17:59<andythenorth>the catamaran got drawn by a contributor, I had to fit it in
17:59<Supercheese>well, that's fine then
17:59<Pikka>then what's the difference between the sets?
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: they differ in how strong and how fast
18:00<Supercheese>no work on your behalf to draw graphics = might as well include it
18:00<andythenorth>Pikka: a big thing here is you're making n sets? to mix?
18:00<andythenorth>ECS style?
18:00<Supercheese>drawing graphics is, like, 98% of the time spent for me
18:00<Pikka>well, not necessarily to mix
18:00<Supercheese>code is cake
18:00<andythenorth>Supercheese: you're doing objects right?
18:00<Supercheese>I'm doing a few things at once
18:00<Supercheese>objects being one
18:00<andythenorth>objects: 98% drawing, 2% code
18:01<Pikka>but to make the game more interesting. a game where the player has all the tools to do whatever they like perfectly optimally is a rather dull game. :)
18:01<Supercheese>Eyecandy vehicles being another
18:01<andythenorth>vehicle set: 60% drawing, 1% code, 39% being figuring out the fricking game balance, and endlessly shuffling crap around to make it make sense
18:01<Supercheese>Well, no balancing needed for eyecandy vehicles :P
18:01*Supercheese is sort of cheating in that regard
18:01<Supercheese>Running costs? Purchase costs? Zero!
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: e.g. if i compare pre-WWII german engines to pre-WWII austrian engines, then the german version of the E18 (electric express engine) is slightly faster, but the austrian is slightly stronger
18:02<Supercheese>reliability? who the fuck cares!
18:02<andythenorth>Pikka: could you do this if you had contributors sending random graphics?
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: but there is no reason why both sets couldn't offer a steam shunter at the same time
18:02<Pikka>this is why I don't collaborate, andythenorth ;)
18:03<Pikka>even UKRS2+ I regretted almost immediately :P
18:03<Supercheese>Pikka: then what is UKRS2+?
18:03<andythenorth>I'm incredibly grateful for the help, but the game balance of FISH 2 and FIRS has been knocked out by contributions that I don't want to reject
18:04<@Terkhen>good night
18:04<andythenorth>if I reject them, I piss people off, and have to draw everything myself
18:04<Supercheese>Honestly, if I had people submitting complete graphics and vehicle statistics, I'd code them into a vehicle set. I think I volunteered for just that with a train set but I've yet to hear from planetmaker
18:04<Pikka>goodnight Terkhen
18:04<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
18:04<Pikka>but it's no fun coding stuff you're not interested in
18:04<Supercheese>well, true enough
18:04<andythenorth>time for SmallFISH
18:05<andythenorth>I like CHIPS
18:05<Supercheese>As do I
18:05<andythenorth>I kept CHIPS pretty small
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: so if i select the german "theme" i get express engines that are better on flat land, if i select austrian then they're better on mountains/curves
18:05<andythenorth>I don't need 1 bazillion stations
18:05*Supercheese has too many station newgrfs
18:05<Supercheese>although in this game let me see...
18:05<Pikka>Eddi: the reason for restricting the buy menu so much is so that the differences are exaggerated. I wouldn't have "the german version of the E18" in one set and "the austrian version of the E18" in another.
18:06<Pikka>I would include "whichever loco fits the caracature I'm trying to paint".
18:06<andythenorth>otoh Pikka wants me to add lots of station tiles to CHIPS, due to 'the default stations smell'
18:06<andythenorth>naughty pikka
18:06<Pikka>no I don't
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: and i think this will make the game really boring
18:06<Pikka>I just want you to stop building default stations :P
18:06<andythenorth>I like them :P
18:07*Pikka will do a base set
18:07<Supercheese>I've built station tiles from 8/18 station grfs loaded (but some have date restrictions so I can't use them in 1899 yet)
18:07<Pikka>then you can build default stations
18:07<Supercheese>others I should axe, I won't use them
18:07<Supercheese>but meh, 127 grfs loadable
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18:07<andythenorth>so CHIPS: 8 tiles for stations walking, 2 mineral loaders, sheep, pigs and cows
18:07<Pikka>well, each to their own, Eddi :)
18:07<andythenorth>what more could ever be needed?
18:08<Supercheese>well, more cargo support perhaps
18:08<Supercheese>steal graphics from NUTS
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i don't see the point in a "you only have express engines" and a "you only have shunting engines" set
18:08<Supercheese>or well, he's offering them
18:08<Supercheese>no stealing necessary
18:09<andythenorth>so BANDIT
18:09<andythenorth>1 x small truck for town and farm stuff
18:09<andythenorth>1 x articulated truck, refits anything anywhere
18:09<Pikka>hmm, that's a good point
18:09<andythenorth>and some randoms that I can't resist adding :P
18:09<Pikka>I should knock out about half of the already tiny HOQVS buy list :D
18:10<andythenorth>you really only need 2 trucks at any time
18:10*Supercheese googles
18:10<andythenorth>10t, 20t
18:10<andythenorth>or if you have NA, or AU you get B doubles, so 40t
18:10<andythenorth>end of, done done
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think trucks need exaggerated vehicle loads to be useful
18:10<Supercheese>all the Google results are from this IRC channel
18:10*Pikka considered learning to drive a B double, just for the fun of it
18:10<Supercheese>HOQVS; what is
18:10<andythenorth>Pikka: what's to learn?
18:10<Pikka>or at least an HC semi
18:11<andythenorth>get in, press go, try to avoid corners
18:11<andythenorth>you don't need to worry much about brakes
18:11<Pikka>"learn" == "get licence for"
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and park backwards? :p
18:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this is AU
18:11<andythenorth>you just turn around and park forwards
18:11<andythenorth>the parking lot is 4 miles wide
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: doesn't help you navigate to the loading bay
18:11<andythenorth>and braking is a non issue, you can either drive through most stuff, or it's going to kill you
18:12*Pikka remembers riding around with heavy towtruck drivers
18:12<andythenorth>meh, I can't bring myself to kill enough FISH
18:12<Pikka>they don't wear seatbelts
18:12<Supercheese>running over vermin might even be encouraged
18:12<Supercheese>lessen the infestation eh
18:12<Pikka>they don't need to, they could run over a house and not even feel it
18:13<andythenorth>if they hit something big enough to stop the truck, they won't survive anyway
18:13<andythenorth>if I remove autorefit, FISH gets smaller
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18:13<andythenorth>or if we 'fix' autorefit
18:14<Supercheese>Oy vey, the daylength topic
18:14<Supercheese>it's like the 2.0 thread all over again
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so trucks: one single box (piece), one single open (bulk) one single tank (liquid) and one articulated (everything), then have "generations" that get faster/stronger/cheaper?
18:15<Pikka>soon (tm)
18:15<Supercheese>andythenorth: if you remove autorefit from FISH, I will forever use old versions
18:15<andythenorth>gah, I forgot that I have to do different bodies for non-articulated trucks
18:15<Supercheese>mandatory feature IMHO
18:15<andythenorth>yeah, ok, screw BANDIT
18:15<andythenorth>I cba with all that
18:15<Supercheese>I can no longer use NARS due to no autorefir :(
18:15<andythenorth>Pikka: yeah those, that's what BANDIT was invented for
18:15*Supercheese could code an addon grf but MEH
18:15<andythenorth>that and small farm trucks
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: those should really go into HEQS
18:16<andythenorth>nah, AU parameter on BANDIT
18:17<andythenorth>they're on-highway vehicles, HEQS is off-highway
18:17<Supercheese>that silly hi-rail truck that nobody ever uses :P
18:17<Pikka>you don't have quaddogs in the UK either, do you? standard construction trucks here.
18:18<andythenorth>same in canada
18:18<andythenorth>but...they're not going in BANDIT :P
18:18<Pikka>why not? :P
18:18<andythenorth>because because
18:18<andythenorth>how many truck types do you need? :P
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>nobody built long-nosed trucks in europe for decades
18:19<andythenorth>you get a B Double, and a delivery truck
18:19<Pikka>b triples and quad dogs :P
18:19<andythenorth>and they're different how? :P
18:19<Pikka>good question
18:19<andythenorth>faster / stronger / better?
18:19<andythenorth>look different? :P
18:19<Pikka>at least one of those
18:20<andythenorth>lower capacity and slower than a B triple
18:20<Pikka>see, I'm much more in favour of large sets
18:20<Pikka>when I don't have to make them myself
18:20<andythenorth>it's a bad habit
18:20<andythenorth>easily done
18:20<andythenorth>I tried having a range of 'vocational' trucks in BANDIT
18:20*Supercheese inspects FIRS translations
18:21<andythenorth>i.e. construction / loggers, heavy chassis, high hp, lower speed
18:21<andythenorth>but they have no gameplay purpose at all
18:21<andythenorth>TTD trucks don't get bogged in mud and throw off their diffs or springs
18:21<andythenorth>that daylength page is Wall Of Text, always a bad sign
18:23<Supercheese>Pikka's blog was Wall of Text-ish, what about that? :P
18:24<Supercheese>Oh wait, it had pretty pictures
18:24<Supercheese>Disregard :)
18:24<andythenorth>Pikka: for BANDIT-AU you get one of these, and a B-triple
18:24<andythenorth>and whatever is in HEQS
18:24<Pikka>that's pretty small D:
18:25<andythenorth>call it 10t
18:25<andythenorth>maybe 15
18:25<Pikka>more like 2 :P but yes, "realism(tm)"
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18:25<andythenorth>the whole low capacity NARS thing has screwed up my perception of capacities :P
18:26<Pikka>can you drive a truck like this on a normal car licence in the UK?
18:26<Supercheese>andythenorth: FIRS strings of "Current production: blah", I am in favor of capitalizing the Blah, so Current production: Normal
18:26<Supercheese>This is consistent with e.g. vehicle buy menu
18:26<andythenorth>Pikka: dunno
18:26<andythenorth>Supercheese: buy menu is wrong :(
18:26<Pikka>you can in australia
18:26<andythenorth>don't capitalise after a colon
18:26<Pikka>which is why there are so many of them here
18:26<Supercheese>"Refittable to: Passengers"
18:27<andythenorth>someone should go up to chipping sodbury and sort out Microprose
18:27<andythenorth>with a grammar lesson
18:27<andythenorth>oh refittable :
18:27<andythenorth>that's just wrong
18:27<andythenorth>someone should call .lower() on it :P
18:27<Supercheese>"Suitable for: Freight"
18:27*Supercheese moves for capitalizing
18:27<andythenorth>Pikka: oh, ok, this one then
18:28<andythenorth>still 5t irl
18:28<Supercheese>I was dubbed official US English translator, no?
18:28<andythenorth>trucks are crapy
18:28*Supercheese capitalizes the stuff in US English .lng
18:29<andythenorth>payload apparently
18:29<Pikka>does nars have low capacity? :P
18:29<andythenorth>a bethgon is about 70-100t irl
18:29<andythenorth>Supercheese: ok, you win
18:29<andythenorth>town rating is capitalised too
18:29<andythenorth>wrong wrong, but meh
18:29<Supercheese>Consistency over correctness!
18:30<Pikka>yes, but compared to the default TTD vehicles they're not low capacity
18:30<Supercheese>I can do it for UK english too
18:30<Pikka>you can have realistic capacity wagons like the japanset, then all your trains end up running around with 3 wagons
18:30<andythenorth>Supercheese: ok, if it pleases you go ahead
18:30<Supercheese>it verily doth
18:30<andythenorth>so the question is, how much cap. for trucks?
18:31<andythenorth>realism? or more? or less?
18:31<Pikka>something game balanced
18:31<Pikka>realism sucks
18:31<andythenorth>I want a small truck with 15t, and a bigger truck with a lot more
18:31<Pikka>that'll do then :P
18:32<andythenorth>I need this views thingy frosch has threatened to do
18:32<Supercheese>whoah, the English_AU.lng has all of two entries
18:32<andythenorth>but it needs to sort out autorefit
18:32<Supercheese>is that... legal?
18:32<Supercheese>Just include the strings that are different? O_o
18:32<andythenorth>don't replicate
18:33*Supercheese was unaware
18:33<andythenorth>changes in two places are silly
18:33*Supercheese will remove unchanged strings
18:33<andythenorth>would have been easier to start with an empty file :)
18:33<andythenorth>but too late
18:33<Supercheese>WinMerge ho
18:34<Supercheese>inverse merge? subtract?
18:36<andythenorth>Pikka: so now I have to go sleep and dream of which ships to delete :P
18:36<andythenorth>I kind of like the continent / region thing
18:36<Pikka>:) good luck
18:36<andythenorth>dunno how to apply it to ships
18:37<Pikka>I wouldn't try, it's not really applicable
18:37<andythenorth>I still think sea vs. inland might work
18:37<andythenorth>and each type is crippled for the other water type
18:38<andythenorth>or arbitrary nonsense
18:38<andythenorth>like player 1 gets the 'big big coaster'
18:38<andythenorth>and player 2 gets the 'small big coaster'
18:38<Pikka>yuck :)
18:39<Supercheese>no buy menu callbacks?
18:39<Supercheese>or are we presuming they'll be added sometime?
18:39<andythenorth>ach, it's not hard to do
18:39<andythenorth>someone will do it
18:39<Supercheese>famous last words :P
18:39<andythenorth>unless they decide they hate all this and try to stop us :P
18:39<andythenorth>so far that's looking possible :)
18:39<Supercheese>all too possible
18:40<Supercheese>"ach, those newgrf people, there they go again"
18:40<Pikka>there you go, that's how the new diagonals look
18:40<Supercheese>"I should never have added multiple-vehicle-set support"
18:40<Supercheese>"63 loaded grfs is more than anyone could ever need/want"
18:40<andythenorth>herp yes, that's betterer
18:41<Pikka>and a hell of a lot easier/more fun to draw
18:41<Supercheese>Superior in every way then, no? :)
18:41<andythenorth>daiagonals smell
18:41<Pikka>with TTD-scale, basically you're trying to squash 8px of vertical information from the horizontal view
18:41<Pikka>into 7px in the diagonal
18:41*Supercheese renders or borrows all his sprites
18:41<Supercheese>I wouldn't know
18:41<Pikka>there's no way anyone in their right mind would have drawn them like that, it's just another reason why I think the original sprites must be rendered :)
18:42<andythenorth>I think I forgot to do that
18:42<andythenorth>what would SF have rendered them in?
18:42<andythenorth>I assumed he just sat and did a lot of deluxe paint on an amiga :P
18:42<andythenorth>or corel draw :P
18:43<Pikka>eh, rendering programs existed back then
18:43<andythenorth>if you had time to wait :)
18:43<andythenorth>probably not long for sprites
18:43<andythenorth>I like the mining truck
18:43<Pikka>after all, RCT is obviously rendered, and that was only a few years later
18:43<andythenorth>it's one of the first sprites I drew, and it's also still one of my favourites :P
18:43<Pikka>not long for sprites, and given the size they wouldn't have had to be complex models to begin with
18:44<Supercheese>Poke poke
18:44<andythenorth>fair point
18:45<andythenorth>one player could get packet ships (refittable any cargo)
18:45<andythenorth>another gets mostly freight
18:45<andythenorth>another gets mostly pax
18:45<Pikka>but that's just strange
18:45<andythenorth>if we're going to do this, let's screw players over a bit, no?
18:46<andythenorth>so you have to adapt strategy to what you get
18:46<Pikka>we'll see
18:46<Pikka>code it and we'll try it
18:46<andythenorth>I've considered random vehicles before
18:46<andythenorth>or at least random stats
18:46<andythenorth>I'd like to stop saying, hey, it's 1970, the big log truck will be along soon
18:46<andythenorth>in MP
18:47<andythenorth>but then that's strategy, right?
18:47<Pikka>I mean, random stats could be fun for the novelty
18:47<Pikka>but as an actual set design, I think it has more drawbacks than advantages
18:47<Supercheese>yeah, as long as the random magnitude isn't excessive
18:48<Supercheese>±10%? 20%? 25%?
18:48<andythenorth>GS that unlocks vehicles for completing achievements :P
18:48<Supercheese>cheevos for OTTD,
18:48<Pikka>that could be interesting :P
18:48<Supercheese>ignore comma
18:48<Pikka>it would mean cooperation between the GS and the grf, though
18:48<andythenorth>yeah, that
18:48<andythenorth>never happening
18:48<Supercheese>GamerScore GameScript GSGS
18:49<andythenorth>so I have to put a line through 60% of FISH 2
18:49<andythenorth>some people will hate me
18:49<andythenorth>mostly DanMacK and Coxx :(
18:49<Supercheese>"have to"
18:49<andythenorth>I need to lose these silly tankers too
18:49<andythenorth>so either no tanker sprites, or no autorefit
18:50<Supercheese>You know my stance on autorefit
18:50<Pikka>you know you can limit autorefit?
18:50<Pikka>based on both the cargo from and the cargo to, for example?
18:50<andythenorth>but you can create provably broken orders with it
18:50<andythenorth>and there's no error message
18:50<Supercheese>rather broken orders
18:50<andythenorth>I have a savegame somewhere :(
18:51<Pikka>maybe have seperate tankers then
18:51<Pikka>but prune them down a bit ;)
18:51<Supercheese>Filter-buy-list-by-cargo-type works well though
18:51<Supercheese>Too many ships --> pick your cargo, boom fewer ships
18:51<Pikka>shall I put buy menu callback on the frysplay?
18:51<andythenorth>Pikka: how much of your goal is gameplay, and how much smaller buy menu?
18:51<Supercheese>doesn't work with locomotives, obviously
18:51<Pikka>well, smaller buy menu is gameplay ;)
18:52<andythenorth>and how much not having to draw more stuff, or answer requests? :P
18:52<Pikka>quite a bit
18:52<Pikka>more limits hopefully means more productivity and releases :)
18:57<andythenorth>could do that eh?
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18:57<Pikka>hur hur bakewell 300
18:57<Supercheese>Like Pikka did
18:57<andythenorth>13 from 30
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18:58<Pikka>obviously you need some kind of ferry before the hydrofoil, though? :)
18:58<Supercheese>Ship Selection: Standard/Extended/Whatever
18:58<andythenorth>that rosario ferry is fine
18:58<andythenorth>just introduce it earlier and kill it earlier
18:58<Pikka>dunno, it's hard to tell
18:59<andythenorth>the Rockall freighter can go too
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18:59<Pikka>it might be worth making a list from scratch (again), rather than working from what you've got already :)
18:59<andythenorth>that's not hard
18:59<andythenorth>not today ;)
18:59<andythenorth>bed time
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19:00<Pikka>don't let the bedships bite
19:01<Supercheese>They're not bedbugs, they're bedfeatures
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>somehow a 4-4-0 engine always screams wildwest-style toy engine to me...
19:03<Wolf01>bed... I... must... resist!
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19:06<Supercheese>4-4-0 American :)
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19:06<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, early engines were 1B (2-4-0) or 1A1 (2-2-2), but the development got rather towards 1'C (2-6-0) rather than 2'B (4-4-0)
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19:08<Eddi|zuHause>there were a few experimental 2'B1' (4-4-2) engines, but it rather quickly resulted in 2'C1' (4-6-2)
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>i imagine the americans rather had problems with axle load early on, hence using 2 axle bogies instead of single leading axles
19:10<Supercheese>Can you ignore entire threads? Have them never trigger "new posts"?
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>no, sadly not
19:10<Supercheese>Darn, I'd love to /ignore the Time Length nonsense thread
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19:27<Wolf01>gah, I can't resist... bed calls
19:27<Wolf01>'night all
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19:41<Supercheese>"b) hiding "AI Only" vehicles from a human player (for example, street traffic cars)."
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19:46<Eddi|zuHause>whoever has to point out they know what they're doing probably doesn't know what they're doing :p
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 09 00:00:40 2013