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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-09

---Logopened Sat Feb 09 00:00:40 2013
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03:05<Supercheese>Blaaaaarg, transfer orders screw everything up
03:06<Supercheese>Transfer and take cargo, whoops, they take back the cargo they just unloaded
03:06<Supercheese>can't leave some coaches empty
03:08<Supercheese>unless I use some ridiculous combination of autorefit orders
03:12<Supercheese>Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg some more, can't choose 2 fixed cargoes to autorefit consists to
03:12<Supercheese>Autorefit to Coal and Engineering Supplies
03:12<Supercheese>Nope, can't do that
03:17<Supercheese>HAH, I did it anyway
03:19<Supercheese>"Pick up livestock and grain from this farm, transfer them both at another station, autorefit at that station to farm supplies BUT don't take any livestock or grain back."
03:20<Supercheese>takes 5 orders
03:20<Supercheese>Go to transfer (transfer and leave empty).
03:20<Supercheese>Go to transfer (autorefit to Coal) [there is no coal at this station, this prevents the grain wagons from loading grain again]
03:21<Supercheese>Go to transfer (Transfer and take cargo with autorefit to farm supplies) [this unloads the livestock that were picked back up from the previous order and ensures the train now leaves with only farm supplies]
03:21<Supercheese>Go to farm (autorefit to grain)
03:21<Supercheese>Go to farm (autorefit to livestock)
03:22<Supercheese>I should just use separate trains for livestock and grain, all this wizardry wouldn't be required :S
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03:25<Supercheese>also this method only works if the grain wagons are refittable to something else
03:25<Supercheese>and the livestock wagons too
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03:42<Supercheese>Whoops, can't autorefit from coal to grain
03:42<Supercheese>and no error message to say that
03:43<Flygon>Supercheese: You are a very brave man
03:43<Supercheese>It should work, and damnit if I'm going to surrender
03:44<Supercheese>well, actually I am going to surrender and build separate livestock and grain trains
03:44<Flygon>Y'know what'd be nice
03:44<Supercheese>a great many things?
03:44<Flygon>Orders that're programmable to handle only loading and unloading SOME wagons
03:45<Flygon>This'd be great for having BR125 sets in UKRS2 not load mail >____>
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03:46<Supercheese>Can't refit to non-mail, eh?
03:48<Supercheese>Yeah, transfer orders bollocks everything up
03:48*Supercheese will never transfer stuff again
03:48<Supercheese>(not really, but meh :P )
03:49<Supercheese>CargoDist is horribly worse
03:49<Supercheese>I've never played with CargoDest though
03:49<Supercheese>they should be different
03:49<LSky`>random question, i have a patch file combining daylength/infrasharing/cargodist thats compiled against r26442/r24663. in the advanced settings though, the fee options for infrasharing show as (undefined string)
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03:49<LSky`>i think theres something off with the diff file still
03:49<LSky`>but im not sure what
03:50<Supercheese>Strings, obv
03:50<LSky`>so it would appear
03:50<LSky`>just not sure where to look or what to do about it
03:51<Supercheese>Which string is missing?
03:51<Supercheese>The bottom-description or the main one?
03:51<LSky`>the values you can set in the advanced settings, for the actual costs
03:51<@peter1138>eh, doesn't new initialise memory?
03:51<LSky`>"daily track toll for trains: (unfdefined string) per 1000 tonnes
03:52<LSky`>and the other 3 as well
03:52<Supercheese>A recent commit changes stuff with string params
03:53<LSky`>the client does actually run by the way, though silly enouhg, i cant actually find the in game menu for IS -_-
03:53<Supercheese>Hmm, 246XX was a while ago
03:53<Supercheese>lots of commits since then
03:54<LSky`>true, but the latest IS was even longer ago, i believe
03:54<LSky`>at least, the last 'official' patch was in 2010
03:55<Supercheese>I'm a singleplayer-only guy, I don't have too much use for IS :P
03:56<LSky`>people have been asking for IS on my server for a while now
03:56<Supercheese>It does sound very nice if you're doing multiplayer
03:56<LSky`>but its not particularly easy to get going
03:56<Supercheese>well, a bunch of patches sound nice :D
03:56<Supercheese>of course they have bugs, etc.
03:57<LSky`>especially since theyve not been recently updated
03:58<Supercheese>Well, I should sleep
03:58<Supercheese>I need to be awake in 7.5 hours
03:58<Supercheese>scratch that, 7 hours
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04:04<andythenorth>Pikka: new models have big stats changes or incremental improvements?
04:08<Pikka>of ship?
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04:13<andythenorth>Pikka: of any vehicle type
04:14<Pikka>starting vehicle
04:14<Pikka>final vehicle
04:14<Pikka>stat change size = (difference between start and finish) / (number of generations)? :)
04:14<andythenorth>too linear :)
04:15<andythenorth>I think the answer is 'both'
04:15<Pikka>both, then!
04:15<andythenorth>also a 'trash' icon on each vehicle row of the relevant 'all my vehicles' window
04:15<andythenorth>because 10 small ferries can be replaced by 5 large ferries
04:15<andythenorth>or 5 much faster ferries
04:16<andythenorth>and goto depot, delete, is tedious
04:16<andythenorth>especially for trucks
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04:16<andythenorth>it's garbage collection basically
04:16<andythenorth>mark for deletion, send to depot
04:16<andythenorth>easy patch eh?
04:20<Pikka>mb, what would we do without him?
04:26<andythenorth>we've had this discussion before many times apparently
04:26<andythenorth>I wasn't there :P
04:26<andythenorth>and it's moot anyway, for reasons that should be obv.
04:26<andythenorth>but I'm interested what he says anyways
04:27<Pikka>yes, if he was looking for universal agreement on the "right way" to do TTD, he's looking in the wrong place
04:27<Pikka>I was just telling people what I was up to and inviting them to comment :)
04:28<Pikka>but no, I was sighing at mb for the other thread, really ;)
04:29<andythenorth>oh he's missed the point there a bit
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04:39<@Alberth>moin all
04:40<Pikka>moin Alberth
04:42<andythenorth>log tugs probably belong in HEQS anyway :P
04:42<Pikka>tog lugs
04:42<andythenorth>tug log
04:42<Pikka>stop that at once
04:43<andythenorth>small ferry, big ferry
04:43<andythenorth>meh, steam -> diesel is such a boring transition for ships
04:43<andythenorth>compared to ship -> hydrofoil
04:43<Pikka>well, there's no need to make a big deal of it
04:44<Pikka>you just have one ship that looks like a steam ship, then the next one looks like a diesel ship. no need really to even tell the player what the propulsion system supposedly is :)
04:44<andythenorth>same stats
04:44<andythenorth>UKRS 2 manages steam -> diesel well
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04:46<Pikka>ships have fewer properties to differentiate
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04:47<Pikka>although that said, there's not any "difference" between steam and diesel railway locomotives in TTD per se
04:47<Pikka>they still have all the same features and all the same properties :)
04:48<andythenorth>dieseeisals are cheaper to run
04:48<andythenorth>so you can have more :P
04:48<andythenorth>and they have higher TE, so you can also have fewer :P
04:48<Pikka>yeah, but only because they have those values, if you see what I mean :P
04:49<Pikka>one loco has high costs or low TE or whatever, the other has different, but there's no innate connection between being steam or diesel. just like there isn't with ships.
04:50<andythenorth>basically, for an 1870 start, I need to drop in 'better' ships around 1900 and 1930
04:50<andythenorth>some happen to be diesel
04:50<andythenorth>but that's non-critical
04:50<andythenorth>so how are they 'better'
04:50<Pikka>why do they need to be 'better'?
04:50<andythenorth>otherwise why bother?
04:50<andythenorth>except the old model is withdrawn
04:51<Pikka>well, indeed
04:51<Pikka>if the new model is just the same as the old one, don't bother with it
04:51<andythenorth>how does a new vehicle advance the gameplay?
04:51<Pikka>make it bigger or faster or cheaper
04:52<Pikka>if your new (diesel) ship isn't bigger or faster or cheaper than your old (steam) ship, either leave it out or change its stats so that it is.
04:52<andythenorth>not wanting to reach for straws, but passenger comfort?
04:52<andythenorth>[cargo aging]
04:53<Pikka>I dunno, I haven't tried to make cargo aging an interesting mechanic
04:53<Pikka>if you think you can do it, have a go :P
04:55<Pikka>night chaps
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05:15<andythenorth>oh he's gone
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05:32<andythenorth>ok so I need an acronym for a new ship set
05:32<andythenorth>needs reversing
05:33<andythenorth>Some Quite Useful Interestingly Designed Ships
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05:36<@Alberth>squids sounds nice
05:40<andythenorth>150 years
05:40<andythenorth>10 pax ships
05:40<andythenorth>10 freight ships
05:40<andythenorth>10 mixed ships
05:40<andythenorth>not as strict as pikka
05:40<andythenorth>but ships != trains :P
05:42<@Alberth>I don't know what pikka does :)
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say make fewer mixed ships
05:53<V453000>andythenorth: SHI*S
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>1 small car ferry (40 passengers or 10t cargo)
05:53<V453000>is my name for ships :P
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>3 large car ferries (1950, 1970, 1990)
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>before that only "dedicated" cargo ships
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>also: cargo holds :p
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>(freight ships have large capacity but few "holds", ferries have smaller capacity but many many holds)
05:56<MNIM>SQUID: Ships Quite Useful and Interestingly Designed?
05:56<MNIM>Eddi: none from a later day?
05:57<MNIM>I often play from 1900 to 2100 (or even longer)
05:57<MNIM>and quite likely I am not the only one.
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: so what? you use the same ships over 100 years
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05:58<MNIM>yeah, but that gets boring without new developments.
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>can't have everything ;)
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06:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: important developments may be [sail->]steam->diesel and crates->containers
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and you need something that makes the hydrofoils less overpowered
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>there is currently no reason at all to prefer a larger slower ship over a smaller faster one
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06:03<MNIM>I can imagine large solar or wind powered ships in the 2050s
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>wind powered ships, we had those in the 1800s already...
06:18<oskari89>Why the Beta 2 haven't been posted to OpenTTD frontpage O_o
06:18<oskari89>It's there on download testing but still..
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>apparently nobody has time
06:21<@Alberth>oskari89: write a nice announcement
06:21<@Alberth>(although I have no posting powers)
06:28<V453000>beta2 is out? :)
06:31<oskari89>Seems that there's bug in that version
06:31<MNIM>Eddi|zuHause: and we were idiots to dump them
06:32<oskari89>I have a 64x64 game
06:32<oskari89>With dense ai-generated roads
06:33<oskari89>Placed two stations at oil refinery and metal works
06:34<oskari89>But when i am giving orders to vehicle that serves those, there's a error...
06:34<oskari89>"Can't insert new order, vehicle can't go to that station"
06:35<oskari89>But there's nothing which would block that vehicle?
06:35<@Alberth>bus station instead of truck station?
06:35<@Alberth>default station for articulated trucks?
06:35<oskari89>Nope, it's truc station
06:35<oskari89>Articulated trucs can't use default stations?
06:35<@Alberth>that won't work indeed
06:35<@Alberth>they cannot make the turns
06:35<oskari89>Okay, that was new to me :P
06:36<oskari89>"Can't make road vehicle turn around"
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06:44<andythenorth>Haul Anchor, Keep East
06:44<andythenorth>Cruising Over Deeps
06:45<andythenorth>Ships A List Tidied
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06:48<@Alberth>JABS just a bunch of ships
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06:53<Eddi|zuHause>what was this word again that sounds like "FISH", but gets spelled completely different?
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>GHOTI, that i meant
06:56<andythenorth>uh huh
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07:13<Wolf01>hi o/
07:15<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>it might have been buried in the night, but this is too evil, i have to say it again: :p
07:21<@peter1138>i appear to have hit german youtube
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>i think you should get the gist of it without understanding that much german
07:25<oskari89>Is there currently random founding of towns in OpenTTD?
07:25<oskari89>So town could be randomly founded somewhere?
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>basically, he's working up the crowd at a carneval show, making it reply to common shoutouts
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>"zicke zacke zicke zacke" - "heu heu heu" and "hip hip" - "hurra"
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>and then he says "Sieg!"
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>and when the obvious reply comes, he tries to sound embarrassed
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>"this can't be true that there are so many 'old comrads' here"
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08:02<Eddi|zuHause>no, they won't make it this election
08:02<andythenorth>Provides Individually Reasonable Assets To Enable Shipping
08:03<@Alberth>obviously that name is reserved for pirate trading ;)
08:05<andythenorth>Pirates Isn't Recursive At The End So
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08:21<MNIM>Eddi|zuHause: funny. I was zapping recently and encountered a show called 'sieg heil und alaaf' on one of the german channels.
08:21<MNIM>I was pretty much like 'wait, what?'
08:22<MNIM>have germans been getting more relaxed about those themes these years?
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: i somehow doubt that
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: and this clip above is from 1973
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08:26<MNIM>I noticed, but I always thought you guys were a bit icky whenever the n-word gets mentioned
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08:27<Rubidium>not only that
08:28<andythenorth>reverse acronym SEADOGS?
08:28<@Alberth>YASS yet another ship set
08:29<Rubidium>andy's rare rigs
08:29<andythenorth>Land Ho!
08:30<MNIM>SEAS: Ships? Eek, Another Set!
08:31<andythenorth>need something that goes with CHIPS
08:31<andythenorth>dunno why
08:33<andythenorth>obviously the name is far more important than what goes in the set :P
08:33<MNIM>More Useless Ships To Anchor 'Round Docks
08:34<MNIM>andy: naturally
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>SSWPA... Ship Set Without Pronouncable Acronym
08:34*MNIM baps Eddi on the head
08:35<MNIM>Acronyms be srz bznz
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08:35<andythenorth>Cast Away To Sea
08:35<MNIM>Craptastic Andythenorth Transport Ships?
08:35*MNIM ducks
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>i doubt that cats really go well with chips
08:36<andythenorth>I like SQUID
08:36<andythenorth>I guess that might work
08:36<andythenorth>or does it suck?
08:36<MNIM>squid? what was that again
08:37<andythenorth>Ships Quite Unique Individual Designs
08:37<andythenorth>because there will be limited incremental improvements
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>Now Everybody Wants Ships
08:37<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: pretty good :)
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>call it NEWShips, just to annoy MB :)
08:38<andythenorth>annoying MB is an over-rated sport :)
08:38<MNIM>oh right, I proposed SQUID: Ships Quite Useful and Interestingly Designed myself
08:39<andythenorth>Ships Have Anchors Ropes Knots
08:39<andythenorth>SHARK will do
08:39<andythenorth>de-acronym later
08:39<andythenorth>now to actually figure out what it is :P
08:40<andythenorth>1. move the log tug to HEQS
08:40<andythenorth>2. only put necessary ships in SHARK
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>i like the log tug
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>HEQS should stick to road vehicles
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08:50<Eddi|zuHause>why are you always so eager to remove the one thing that is interesting/not like everything else out there?
08:53<andythenorth>everything must be uniform!
08:53<andythenorth>also, in a set of 25 ships, how do I justify one that only carries wood?
08:54<andythenorth>or is that exactly precisely upside-down thinking?
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>how do you justify the other 24 ships?
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>a log tug would be the cheapest way to move logs
08:55<andythenorth>this is an interesting way of thinking about it
08:55<andythenorth>start with the log tug
08:55<andythenorth>what else deserves to be in
08:56<andythenorth>my concern with any set is avoiding 'bland'
08:56<andythenorth>'big' is one way to avoid 'bland'
08:56<andythenorth>but that's too easy
08:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: do you think cargo aging is worth bothering with?
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>for ships? yes, slower cargo aging makes it on-par with other transport types
08:58<andythenorth>I am thinking between ships as well
08:58<andythenorth>so old, open-deck passenger ships
08:58<andythenorth>age much faster than ferries with cabins and bars and slot machines
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>low cargo aging for non-perishable goods (coal, ore, etc...)
08:59<andythenorth>ship technology progresses quite slowly I think
09:00<andythenorth>over 150 years, probably not many models needed for each cargo / route niche
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes, 1700: sail ships, 1800: steam ships, 1900: small diesel ships, 1950: large container ships
09:01<Flygon>Only 1700?
09:01<Flygon>What about 1500?
09:01<andythenorth>yeah, not interested
09:01<Flygon>Also, Tiremes
09:01<andythenorth>my games start 1870, never earlier
09:01<andythenorth>making ships for Other People is a nice idea, but my time is short ;)
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>make 3 or 4 ships per each of these eras
09:02<andythenorth>something like this yes
09:02<andythenorth>with rather large capacity difference
09:03<andythenorth>so PAX / mail: 50 pax / 250 pax / 1000 pax
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09:03<Eddi|zuHause>something like that, yes
09:04<andythenorth> FISH 2 has big gaps in pax ships (not drawn), but works fine in gameplay
09:04<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Don't test your sets with "vehicles never expire" switched on, I don't want to end up with The One Ship Set :p
09:04<andythenorth>michi_cc: point :)
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09:05<andythenorth>this Island Trader thing should go
09:06<andythenorth>it's like Universal Ultimate Ship
09:06<andythenorth>fast, right size for many routes, refits anything
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09:07<andythenorth>also michi_cc can I moan about autorefit? :)
09:07<andythenorth>or is the answer 'ignore it' o_O
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09:08<@Alberth>don't support it :)
09:08<+michi_cc>To your moaning? Yes ;)
09:08<Dakki>what happened to the 'stolen trees' newgrf?
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's still around, somewhere
09:09<@Alberth>that was by SAC wasn't it?
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>but search for the updated "treesw.grf" with snowy versions as well
09:10<andythenorth>ho ho
09:10<andythenorth>small, medium, very large
09:10<andythenorth>no large
09:10<andythenorth>if you want large ships, use a few medium ones
09:11<+michi_cc>Just pick three or four cargo groups (all liquid cargoes, all bulk cargoes, all piece goods etc) and allow unlimited autorefit in each group and none at all between groups. Prevents stuck cargo types, and ignore anybody who wants to autorefit between groups.
09:11<andythenorth>michi_cc: that's what I've done for FISH 2
09:11<andythenorth>only differently
09:11<andythenorth>tankers refit any liquid
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, and the "very large" category grows with each era, the "small" and "medium" ships stay the same size
09:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: precisely that
09:12<andythenorth>there is always a niche for small
09:12<andythenorth>but otherwise the game tends to 'bigger'
09:12<andythenorth>industry production++ and town population++
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>"speedboat": 1t, high speed :)
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>and have them make really annoying sounds so people won't use 1000 of them to serve a route :p
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>(i think the game just drops sounds if there are too many simultaneously)
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09:16<andythenorth>lo frosch123
09:18<frosch123>moin :)
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09:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: should I kill the freight barges? :P
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09:18<andythenorth>they're slow
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>which ones are those?
09:19<andythenorth>ach, wrong way of thinking about it
09:20<andythenorth>what ships are fun to have? what ships are different to other ships?
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>barges: fastest ship on canals
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>keep the paddle steamers, make them the only choice in the steam era
09:21<andythenorth>and yes
09:21<andythenorth>I agree
09:21<andythenorth>but I'm trying to start from clean sheet
09:21<andythenorth>I keep forgetting that :P
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>make the hydrofoils future-ish
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>i think they're heavily overpowered
09:22<andythenorth>what gameplay reason is there to provide inland and sea vessels?
09:22<andythenorth>I can vary speed, but then I need to provide a range of capacities
09:22<andythenorth>because industries and towns don't produce differently depending on inland / near sea
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>keep the barges small/medium only
09:23<andythenorth>big ones look bad in canals anyway
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>inland barges are more a thing of opportunity, you need to have a river flowing in the right direction to make decent use of them
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>or you have really high costs for canals
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09:24<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise it's usually easier to just serve the industries by train/truck
09:25<andythenorth>ugh, ships with refittable capacity would shake this up :P
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09:25<andythenorth>I mean properly, specified as 'holds'
09:26<andythenorth>multiple thereof
09:26<andythenorth>well I'm unlikely to succeed at patching ottd for it :P
09:26<andythenorth>so moot point
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>even if there were "holds", they would have fixed sizes and just be handled by refit/autorefit to different cargos
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>nothing the newgrf should worry about
09:28<andythenorth>newgrf would specify the number of holds and size?
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09:29<Eddi|zuHause>possibly in a form similar to the articulated callback
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09:45*andythenorth experiments
09:47*Alberth throws in a stick of dynamite for extra fun
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09:50<andythenorth>I just can't do this thing pikka is doing for trains
09:50<@Alberth>why would you? you're a different person afaik
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>do you really know? :p
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>have you ever met both in the same room at the same time?
09:51<@Alberth>all the evidence found so far points in that direction :p
09:52<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: yes, I have seen them talk to each other in #openttd :)
09:52<andythenorth>could be fake
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i have seen TB and DorpsGek talk to each other. that doesn't prove anything :p
09:52<andythenorth>anyway trains can be composed into consists
09:52<andythenorth>so capacity varies trivially
09:52<andythenorth>ships can't
09:53<andythenorth>and just saying 'build 10 of size xyz' is unsatisfactory
09:53<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: you claim that TB and DorpsGek are the same entity? you're crazy :)
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09:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, but having 10 different refits per cargo type is un-handleable
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09:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ?
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>wrt refitable ship sizes
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10:01<andythenorth>I kind of gave up on that argument
10:01<andythenorth>doesn't go anywhere useful ;)
10:01<andythenorth>in the absence of old style FIRS supplies, is there *any* point to teeny ships (<20t / 30 pax)
10:01*andythenorth thinks not
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>small village on a remote-ish island
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>which you'd normaly cover by a bus service
10:04<andythenorth>why not just run a bigger boat, with timetable instead of full load?
10:04<andythenorth>60 pax or so?
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>as i mentioned earlier: "small ferry" - 40pax or 10t cargo
10:05<andythenorth>currently there is one at 30 pax / 12t
10:05<andythenorth>which gets used a bit
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>you certainly don't need both 30pax and 60pax ships
10:06<andythenorth>something like that
10:07<andythenorth>ship speeds
10:08<andythenorth>realistic, or cheated?
10:08<andythenorth>[they're already cheated somewhat in FISH]
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>not too cheated, balance the decay rate instead
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>so a 40km/h ship earns the same as a 120km/h train
10:25<andythenorth>only one model for a class of ship
10:25<andythenorth>over 150 years
10:25<andythenorth>no progression of type 1 -> type 2 filling same niche
10:26<@Alberth>makes "class" somewhat non-useful :) (or "model" of course)
10:28<andythenorth>you just build 'small coaster' or whatever
10:29<andythenorth>you don't worry about picking type 1 or type 2
10:29<andythenorth>no date changes either
10:30<V453000>fish aint enough ? :D
10:31<andythenorth>I'm canning FISH 2
10:32<andythenorth>starting a new ships project
10:33<V453000>why? :d
10:34<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Progression is vital if you play with inflation enabled. The TTD inflation mechanics let the costs increase faster than the revenue, which means vehicles must get more efficient as time goes by.
10:35<andythenorth>that's cos inflation is broken ;)
10:37<+michi_cc>Too many vehicles to buy is solved in a big part by playing with inflation, expiring vehicles and breakdowns (reliability is randomized by the game, which means there will always be a random subset of vehicles that are not usable for there low reliability).
10:37<V453000>not like too many vehicles to buy is a problem ;)
10:38<V453000>if there are too many equal vehicles to choose from, it is fault of the train set
10:39<andythenorth>I think too many vehicles is boring
10:39<andythenorth>I'm deleting most of them from FISH
10:39<andythenorth>and probably won't bother with progression over time much
10:39<andythenorth>canal boats didn't change much in 150 years
10:40<andythenorth>I don't think I can get a ship set down to 10 vehicles though
10:40<andythenorth>MB succeeded at that
10:44<V453000>well if ship sprites change upon refit, you need like just a few for cargo
10:44<V453000>"large universal cargo ship", medium, and what not
10:46<andythenorth>they don't change on refit
10:46<andythenorth>but otherwise I agree
10:46<V453000>dont /cant?
10:46<andythenorth>looks dumb ;)
10:46<andythenorth>really really dumb
10:47<andythenorth>I could drop autorefit
10:47<andythenorth>I'll keep it :P
10:47<andythenorth>means I have to have tankers
10:47<andythenorth>could not have tankers
10:47<V453000>uhm that doesnt change sprites?
10:47<andythenorth>the cargo ships carry liquids in barrels anyway
10:48<andythenorth>but tankers have always been in the game :P
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: have huge tankers only in the "container ship" era (1950+)
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>before that, handle liquids in barrels
10:49<andythenorth>I am +1 to that, except there's a really nice sprite for a 'large' tanker :)
10:49<andythenorth>set design influenced by available sprites :P
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10:54<andythenorth>maybe I should delete the FIRS economy
10:54<andythenorth>and remove some industries from FIRS
10:55<andythenorth>it would compile faster, amongst other things
10:55<andythenorth>the smaller Basic economies are better
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>you certainly have the focus of... oh a butterly
10:55<andythenorth>it all runs in the same direction :P
10:56<andythenorth>I noticed FISH compile got faster due to being smaller
10:56<andythenorth>faster FIRS compile would be welcome
11:04<andythenorth>down to 5 tankers, 8 cargo ships
11:05<andythenorth>8 pax ships
11:05<andythenorth>a few randoms
11:05<andythenorth>that's about 50% removed
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11:37<andythenorth>what happened to the wider buy menu for ships?
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11:59<frosch123>not that i know of
11:59<frosch123>maybe you downgraded :p
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12:03<andythenorth>maybe I broke FISH :P
12:04<andythenorth>nml says the buy menu sprites are 138px wide
12:04<andythenorth>but they're not rendered that wide
12:04<andythenorth>maybe I screwed up offsets
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12:23<andythenorth>ho ho
12:23<andythenorth>maybe I should remove *all* the sea ships
12:23<andythenorth>just do inland vessels
12:23<andythenorth>that's got to be better?
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12:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24983 /trunk/src (5 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-09 17:31:07 UTC)
12:31<@DorpsGek>-Change: Apply the same name sorting rules to content and NewGRF list as for the server list.
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12:44<andythenorth>ok, so I can't do the pikka 10 vehicle thing
12:44<andythenorth>but I can do 40 ships for 150 years, without being stupid about it
12:44<andythenorth>that's quite enough imho
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13:25<LordAro>\o all
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24984 /trunk/src/lang (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-09 18:45:20 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>esperanto - 1 changes by LaPingvino
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 5 changes by Evropi
13:45<@DorpsGek>thai - 38 changes by khao9999
13:45<@DorpsGek>ukrainian - 23 changes by Strategy
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14:03<@Alberth>andythenorth: <-- possible FIRS problem
14:03<andythenorth>have loaded the save
14:03<Supercheese>I also posted the updated english.lngs
14:04<Supercheese>you might have seen those already
14:04<@Alberth>were they out of date?
14:04<Supercheese>Capitalization was made "proper", and the US english had zillions of needless duplicate strings
14:04<Supercheese>I didn't realize you could only include the strings that were different
14:05<@Alberth>oh :)
14:05<@Alberth>so more fallback to the base language now :)
14:06<Supercheese>Au English has, like, only 2 entries :P
14:07<Supercheese>Man, Voyager One is really good at pixel-pushing, he just churns out more trains for the Dutch set all the time
14:07<Supercheese>dozens and dozens
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14:15<@Alberth>andythenorth: I just committed the english changes of Supercheese, the US english changes removes all duplicates, is that wanted in a language file?
14:15<@Alberth>ie other languages tend to copy unchanged strings
14:15<Supercheese>AU English as linked doesn't duplicate either
14:15<Supercheese>but I dunno if that was intentional
14:15<Supercheese>or just a lazy translator :P
14:16<@Alberth>the point is that other languages do copy those strings
14:16<Supercheese>well, other languages have to change every string
14:16<Supercheese>Englishes often don't
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>what's missing is that other languages could define an explicit base lenguage
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>like "german (switzerland)" could define german as base language, and only change the numbering etc.
14:17<Supercheese>A Spanish-variant could define Spanish base and then not include duplicate strings
14:18<Supercheese>Same of German-variants and so on
14:18<@Alberth>there is more missing in the current file format :)
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. "'" as thousand separator instead of "."
14:18<Supercheese>Thousands not separated by commas break my brain @_@
14:18<Supercheese>3.796,51 is ridiculous
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the point :p
14:19<andythenorth>Alberth: removing unchanged strings is desirable, but not usually practical :P
14:19<andythenorth>it reduces maintenance, but takes work to maintain :P
14:20<@Alberth>Supercheese: your call :)
14:20<Supercheese>Well I am a sucker for consistency, so both AU and US english should either include all duplicate strings, or none of them
14:21<Supercheese>currently I'm leaning towards no duplicates
14:21<@Alberth>ok, no duplicates it is :)
14:22<Supercheese>I don't speak Aussie, so I can't maintain the AU English file :P
14:23<andythenorth>the brewery accepts fruit, the tiles accept fruit, the station thinks fruit is accepted, but the cargo isn't moved to the industry :P
14:25<Supercheese>Produce block issues?
14:26<Supercheese>Produce won't produce with produce :D
14:26<andythenorth>could be
14:27<andythenorth>seems to be widespread for secondary industry
14:34<andythenorth>I have a station that's claiming to accept scrap metal
14:34<andythenorth>but doesn't
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>you sure you didn't set any weird transfer orders?
14:38<andythenorth>I was using one station which overlapped source and destination
14:38<andythenorth>with unload and take cargo
14:39<andythenorth>that has issues
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>ah yes, that is an explanation :)
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>don't do that :)
14:39<andythenorth>however I can't replicate the situation hyronymous has in his save
14:39<andythenorth>it's broken in his save, but I can't figure out why :P
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>what save?
14:39<andythenorth>the save involves insanely slow trains
14:40<andythenorth>so I tested to see if I could replicate with any version of recent FIRS
14:40<andythenorth>the only way I can do so is with the weird single station setup
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>the industry closest to the station sign will get all cargo
14:41<andythenorth>allegedly that was tested already
14:41<andythenorth>I didn't due to very slow trains :P
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>just destroy the industry in question (magic bulldozer) and see if that solves it
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>i can't look at the actual savegame at the moment
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14:51<andythenorth>yeah, it was the other industry taking the cargo
14:51<andythenorth>never trust someone else's report :P
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14:58<@Alberth>which other industry?
14:59<andythenorth>food market
15:00<@Alberth>hmm, didn't see that one
15:00<@Alberth>your industry buildings blend in very well :)
15:03<frosch123>colour code them, just make them pink and blue
15:03<frosch123>no shading, just unicolor :p
15:05<andythenorth>frosch123: you didn't happen to implement vehicle views whilst I wasn't looking?
15:05<frosch123>i did not even wrote a spec :p
15:06<@peter1138>rgb colour maps!
15:20<andythenorth>what is the point of these giant tankers in FISH 2?
15:22<andythenorth>no sensible industry set produces this much oil
15:22<andythenorth>(1,800,000 litres capacity)
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15:23<andythenorth>then they look stupid going up the river to the refinery
15:24<frosch123>maybe they are meant for transfers
15:24<frosch123>aren't ships usually used when trains cannot handle the amount anymore
15:24<andythenorth>I've never used them in my games
15:24<andythenorth>they're too big
15:24<frosch123>without flatting all mountains and placing 32 tracks in parallel?
15:25<frosch123>but yes, usually i build many ships rather than big ships
15:25<andythenorth>better to deliver small amounts frequently
15:25<frosch123>i also rarely build the long trams
15:25<frosch123>usually medium only
15:25<frosch123>sometimes short
15:26<andythenorth>or I adjust the capacity down significantly
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15:37<andythenorth>ho ho
15:37<andythenorth>I'm accidentally making NewShips
15:38<andythenorth>Michael got here a long time ago :)
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15:38<andythenorth>lo Pikka
15:39<Pikka>lo andy
15:39<andythenorth>curse you
15:39<Pikka>did I?
15:39<andythenorth>I am deleting ships left and right
15:39<andythenorth>and center
15:39<andythenorth>Dan will hate me :(
15:39<Pikka>oops :)
15:39<frosch123>luckily fish 1 is still available :)
15:39<Pikka>and fish 2
15:40<andythenorth>FISH 2 is not getting any more work
15:40<andythenorth>SQUID has killed it
15:41<frosch123>is squid an oversized cargo?
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15:42<frosch123>do 1 800 000 litres suit a squid?
15:42<andythenorth>probly :P
15:43*Pikka berb
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16:03<Pikka>lo berb
16:03<Pikka>you have pie?
16:06<andythenorth>mmm pie
16:07<Pikka>pie pie pie pie pie pie pie
16:07<Pikka>or at least coffee
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16:43<Pikka>not sure which side you're on, Alberth :)
16:43<Pikka>are you saying GS's shouldn't try to manage the economy, or are you saying that industry GRFs shouldn't exist?
16:44<Pikka>"complex" industry GRFs shouldn't exist
16:50<Pikka>any road up
16:50*Pikka back in an hour or two
16:53<@Alberth>I am saying that even the game engine cannot manage current industry newgrfs (due to not having enough influence)
16:53<@Alberth>as such GS cannot do it either
16:54*Alberth is asleep in an hour of two :)
16:54<frosch123>at least you hope to :)
16:56<@Alberth>from past experience, I am confident that will work :)
16:56<@Alberth>good night :)
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16:57<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i said, right? NewGRFs already have too much influence, you can't cut back on it to try to balance it
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17:13<andythenorth>for any given feature (trains / RVs / industry etc), there are things that could be delegated, if we were prepared to do the arguing
17:13<andythenorth>so that newgrf is less influential
17:13<Supercheese>Well, I am most proficient at coding newgrfs, so more power to them, say I
17:15<frosch123>sometimes i wonder what happens when i lock in a newgrf author with an ai author like krinn into a room
17:16<frosch123>would only one of them survive? or would they team up and kill me instead :p
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17:32<LordAro>krinn wouldn't
17:32<LordAro>everyone else would team up :)
17:33<LordAro>with the possible exception of the Rondje authors :L
17:39<andythenorth>new ship set has 29 ships, with 1 slot free for 'inspiration'
17:39<andythenorth>it's a bit less logical than FISH :P
17:41<Supercheese>Which were axed/which kept?
17:41<Supercheese>Also: are they permanently gone or hidden behind a new parameter [Normal\Extended]?
17:41<andythenorth>it's a new set
17:41<andythenorth>FISH is dead
17:42<Supercheese>And no one can take it over because of your 10 layers of abstraction O_o
17:42<frosch123>use the last slot for a squid then
17:42<andythenorth>Supercheese: I think you misunderstand abstraction :)
17:42<Supercheese>Although I could just pinch the graphics
17:43<andythenorth>if you limit your changes to those the framework allows, you can keep the set running just by editing the .cfg file
17:43<andythenorth>which is plain text
17:43<andythenorth>rename it LOSTFISH
17:44<Supercheese>Well, you've a .cfg file building Python building NML building NFO building a .grf, no?
17:44<Supercheese>or well, NML can go straight to grf I guess
17:44<andythenorth>python builds nml from the .cfg file
17:44<Supercheese>kind of
17:44<andythenorth>nml -> grf
17:44<andythenorth>hmm, I've done an evil
17:45<Supercheese>so one more layer over NML then
17:45<Supercheese>NML really is just higher-level NFO though
17:45<Supercheese>with some automatic code generation wizardry
17:45<Supercheese>i.e. Spritelayout 'arguments'
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18:12<andythenorth>any need for a big ship pre 1900?
18:12<andythenorth>big means > 800t
18:13<andythenorth>I can't find a use for them
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18:13<Supercheese>I used one before...
18:13<Supercheese>and then he leaves
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18:14<andythenorth>oops :P
18:14<andythenorth>wrong quit
18:15<Supercheese>Yes indeed
18:15<Supercheese>I was saying I used one in the 1890s
18:15<Supercheese>But not really before
18:15<Supercheese>I'm using a single 960t ship
18:15<Supercheese>rest are 540t ships and smaller
18:16<Supercheese>960t is biggest currently available, though if there was one bigger I wouldn't have a use for it yet
18:16<Supercheese>game year is 1902
18:18<Supercheese>Although a station has just exceeded train capacity
18:18<Supercheese>2,000t of metal waiting and the trains train throughput is at max
18:18<Supercheese>time to switch to a canal
18:20<andythenorth>I think the 960t ship has no place :)
18:20<andythenorth>it's gone in SQUID
18:20<andythenorth>bed time
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18:38<Pikka>then who was phone
18:53<Supercheese>I really should stop posting at Simuscape
18:54<Supercheese>it does far more harm than good
18:54<Supercheese>It won't make any difference
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19:33<Supercheese>Oh good grief, my farms are now waaaaaaaay overproducing
19:33<Supercheese>Never going to be able to handle these production levels -_-
19:36<@peter1138>what happens at simuscape stays at simuscape
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19:59<Supercheese>I really should stop building terminus stations, ro-ro all the way [gently down the stream]
20:16<Flytgon>Use both
20:17<Flytgon>In my North America scenario, I use both extensively
20:17<Flytgon>Terminuses where multiple lines conjoin
20:17<Flytgon>Ro-Ro for where I want trains to stop into a town (and express through tracks in the middle)
20:18<Flytgon>There is also dead-stop terminuses for end of lines... so, for example
20:19<Flytgon>I end up with some lines ending abruptly, then I build on, and I'll have a very fancy station for a tiny town that trains can short-stop at to handle demand on parts of the route that have more passengers
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20:21<Pikka>peter1138, it's gratifying to see that, so far at least, everyone is ignoring that thread :)
20:22<Pikka>hello Guest1252
20:22<Guest1252>it was aviation 8 grf?
20:22<Pikka>was it?
20:23<Guest1252>av8 grf version?
20:23<Pikka>try asking the question from the beginning
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20:37<Supercheese>We may never know what he really meant...
20:47<Pikka>oh well
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21:07<Supercheese>too bad the covered carriage truck can't refit to food :(
21:08<Supercheese>was hoping to autorefit to livestock at the farm, autorefit to food at the stockyard, but nope
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21:49<Supercheese>Well, my train line is far exceeded capacity, time to replace it with canals
21:49<Supercheese>and 960t ships
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23:27<Supercheese>Yikes, Pikkawiki is getting the (Beeching?) axe
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23:28<Supercheese>fortunately wikis save old content
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 10 00:00:43 2013