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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-10

---Logopened Sun Feb 10 00:00:43 2013
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01:41<Supercheese>Well, all the old 4-2-2 Spinners have been retired and replaced by 4-4-0 Edwardians, save for one, the very first loco I purchased, it's gone to the Supercheese Railway Museum
02:08<Flytgon>Nice
02:08<Supercheese>The game I'm playing: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=28633&start=640#p1065414
02:08<Supercheese>Year is now 1905
02:09<Flytgon>Niice
02:10<Supercheese>Maybe I should start a screenshot thread...
02:11<Supercheese>Also, you seem to have picked up an extra "t" in your IRC name :P
02:13<Flytgon>Do it
02:13-!-Flytgon is now known as Flygon
02:13<Flygon>And, thanks x3
02:13<Supercheese>you're welcome :)
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03:17<andythenorth>Pikka hi beans
03:17<Pikka>beems
03:17<Pikka>what's afoot?
03:17<Supercheese>12 inches
03:17<andythenorth>designing ship progression is tedious
03:18<Pikka>:D
03:18<Supercheese>I like how FISH does it
03:18<andythenorth>is that NARS 2 generations thing really so bad?
03:18<Supercheese>:)
03:18<Pikka>whatcha got? doing it in a spreadsheet?
03:18<Pikka>yes, it's awful
03:18<andythenorth>it's easy for the big stuff
03:18<andythenorth>it gets bigger
03:18<andythenorth>and faster
03:18<andythenorth>but around 100t, you never want bigger
03:18<andythenorth>bigger just screws with the routes you have set up
03:18<Pikka>well
03:18<andythenorth>and faster isn't much option with ships
03:19<Pikka>you can do graphical generations, that's no problem
03:19<Pikka>just don't do stat generations on one ID, it's terrible
03:19<andythenorth>yup
03:21<Pikka>gonna do shipspeed parameter? ;)
03:21<Pikka>maybe up to 2x speed?
03:22<andythenorth>meh
03:22<andythenorth>dunno
03:23<andythenorth>so, 100t puffer-sized ship
03:23<andythenorth>1 model for 150 years, different graphics?
03:23<Pikka>sure
03:23<andythenorth>or 2 models, switching to diesel at 1940 or so?
03:23<Pikka>any particular reason to change model?
03:24<Pikka>if you're not changing stats, may as well just have one
03:24<andythenorth>might be a bit faster, maybe cheaper
03:24<andythenorth>also building the same ship over and over gets boring
03:24<Pikka>go on then :P
03:24<Pikka>does it?
03:24<andythenorth>'upgrade' is one of the gameplay activities no?
03:24<andythenorth>upgrading is fun?
03:24<andythenorth>it's like going shopping
03:25<Pikka>hmm
03:25<Supercheese>Research and development!
03:25<Supercheese>I dunno why people always want that :|
03:25<Pikka>also, do I need a container flat? I suppose I do.
03:26<andythenorth>same reason they like birthday presents
03:26<andythenorth>Pikka: don't stint on wagons :P
03:26<andythenorth>too few wagons is boring
03:26<andythenorth>or just do one 'universal wagon'
03:26<Pikka>if I include a container wagon
03:26<Pikka>I have
03:26<Pikka>eight :]
03:26<Supercheese>Wagon that can autorefit to anything
03:27<Supercheese>Have the 'wagon' just change graphics based on cargo
03:27<Supercheese>Hoppers if coal, tankers if oil
03:28<Pikka>bearing in mind that each of those eight, across half a dozen country sets, all cargos, railtypes and eras from 1900 to 20something
03:28<Supercheese>Just say 'well, I'm simulating shunting/recoupling other wagons'
03:28<Pikka>is going to end up with about 50 graphic variations :)
03:28<andythenorth>do we mind if wagons / barges / truck trailers change appearance totally when autorefitting?
03:28*Supercheese does not mind
03:28<andythenorth>BANDIT has to do it I think
03:28<andythenorth>I could do it in FISH
03:28<andythenorth>for barges
03:28<Supercheese>Esp since it happens like mad in this game
03:28<Pikka>maybe we don't mind if truck trailers change?
03:28<Pikka>we probably mind if ships change
03:28<Supercheese>It simulates changing trailers
03:29<Supercheese>Like the wagons above
03:29<Supercheese>Ships, less analogy, but who cares
03:29<Supercheese>autorefit is boss
03:30<Pikka>we probably also mind if train wagons change, but then we probably already have plans to work around that via prop 25...
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03:30<andythenorth>good old prop 25
03:31<andythenorth>special hax for trains
03:31<Pikka>yes
03:31<andythenorth>just remove the other transport types :|
03:31<Pikka>just get peeter to add it to ships, no worries
03:31<andythenorth>I've been told no before
03:31<andythenorth>"it is wrong"
03:32<Pikka>psh
03:32<andythenorth>or I'm imagining that
03:32<andythenorth>who knows
03:32<andythenorth>certainly we all got bored of discussing it :P
03:32<Pikka>why does your ship look different for different cargos anyway
03:32<andythenorth>tankers innit
03:32<Pikka>make tankers seperate models
03:32<andythenorth>yeah done that
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03:32<Pikka>no worries then :D
03:33<andythenorth>tank barges are the thing in question
03:33<Wolf01>moin
03:33<andythenorth>tug + barges
03:33<andythenorth>why not allow a tank barge swap?
03:33<Pikka>whynotindeed
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03:36<andythenorth>right, family stuff to do
03:37<andythenorth>Pikka 'til next time :P
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04:09<@Alberth>moin
04:12<Rubidium>moimoi Albert
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04:52<@peter1138>V453000, /win 7
04:52<@peter1138>er
04:52<@peter1138>what
04:53<Pikka>wat wat
04:53<Pikka>peter why won't you do prop 25 for ships for andy
04:53<Pikka>meany
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04:59<@peter1138>what
05:16<__ln__>what's .gs?
05:18-!-oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>".gs ist die länderspezifische Top-Level-Domain (ccTLD) von Südgeorgien und der Südlichen Sandwichinseln."
05:20<__ln__>ach so
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05:25<@Terkhen>hello
05:41<Pikka>they don't make Südlichen Sandwichinseln like they used to.
05:42<stuf>ohai
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06:09<@peter1138>wut
06:19<Pikka>what
06:21<@peter1138>wot
06:29<@peter1138>what the hell is "Transport Tycoon - Hall of Fame..."
06:29<@peter1138>posted by "Simuscape Team"
06:34-!-Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:42<@Alberth>a way to advertise for simuscape?
06:43<@peter1138>This post has already been reported.
06:43<@peter1138>heh
06:43<@peter1138>i wonder what it's reported for
06:45<@Alberth>I wondered whether you can have a "team" account at tt-forums :)
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06:53<Flygon>Chinese found Naples
06:54<Flygon>I might have compacted a bit in USA again
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07:26<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: the FOX News version of civilization might have such a thing :p
07:26<Flygon>Fox News version of Civilization: All wars are over Iraqi Oi- er nukes
07:36-!-ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
07:36<Kjetil>Weapons of mass osama
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07:50<andythenorth>hi hi
07:52<@Alberth>hi
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07:59<andythenorth>hmm
08:00*andythenorth wonders who to vote for in TT hall of fame
08:00<andythenorth>maybe...
08:00<andythenorth>Chris Sawyer?
08:03<jonty-comp>who the hell is he?
08:03<jonty-comp>;)
08:14<Flygon>Vote for Flygon! Most obnoxious Pokemon Ty- I could never ever win that one, actually. :B
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08:23<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: Josef Drexler, of course.
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08:36<andythenorth>herp
08:36<andythenorth>my new ship set has more slots free than I can fill :P
08:36<@Alberth>keep it that way!
08:37<andythenorth>it has a specific philosophy I'm working to :)
08:37<andythenorth>I must abide by the rules :P
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08:38<Prof_Frink>Does it have ekranoplans?
08:39<andythenorth>nope
08:43<andythenorth>that stupid Island Trader keeps trying to get back into my set
08:44<frosch123>isn't that the ship which can be clarified as fastest and biggest?
08:46<andythenorth>not biggest
08:46<andythenorth>but fastest and a very convenient size
08:46<andythenorth>big != best for ships I've found
08:46<oskari89>Andythenorth: push-tugboats coming?
08:46<andythenorth>no
08:47<andythenorth>I don't think so anyway
08:50<andythenorth>maybe I could talk myself into it
08:51<andythenorth>maybe I should do a 1900 start
08:51<andythenorth>and only have 20 ships
08:52<andythenorth>instead of 1870 with 30 ships
08:53<andythenorth>nah
08:53<andythenorth>pikka is going a bit extreme with this 10cc, 100 year thing :)
09:04<andythenorth>ha, managed to keep the Island Trader out
09:08<@Alberth>expect questions to be raised about it :)
09:11<andythenorth>so long as I ignore realistic ship speeds, all will be well
09:11<andythenorth>realism is too limiting for ships :P
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09:13<@Alberth>realism is heavily overrated :)
09:15<oskari89>Andythenorth: F1 boats for small island towns? ;)
09:15<oskari89>200 kph or so :)
09:16<oskari89>And 2 persons
09:24-!-Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
09:25<oskari89>And this class of ship would be nice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Allure_of_the_Seas ;)
09:26<oskari89>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Allure_of_the_Seas_under_the_Storebaelts_bridge.jpg Not much clearance there though
09:27-!-Biolunar_ [mahdi@blfd-5d82232f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My life for Aiur]
09:27<oskari89>Cost for buying that class of ship could be astronomical in OpenTTD though :)
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09:40<andythenorth>oskari89: what would you do with that ship in game?
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09:46<@peter1138>boom shakalaka
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10:17<andythenorth>TTD sea isn't really sea, right?
10:17<andythenorth>more like puget sound or something
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>puwhat?
10:23<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puget_Sound
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think you'll have to elaborate on this reasoning
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>"TTD monorail isn't really monorail, more like disneyland or something"
10:28<andythenorth>in short, do I need to draw bow doors on a ro-ro ferry?
10:28<andythenorth>waves tend to sink them
10:29<oskari89>andythenorth: Yes, doors are nice :)
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>canal ferries without doors, sea ferries with doors
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>and animate the doors on loading :)
10:30<frosch123>we need a industry grf providing a salt water cargo
10:30<frosch123>i would love to transport that with ships
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>ballast water, because ships become unstable if they run empty
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10:35<andythenorth>I should have included this in FISH http://www.tasshipping.com.au/uploads/astro100.gif
10:35<andythenorth>too late now :)
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10:54<andythenorth>livestock ship or reefer ship: pick one
10:54<@peter1138>general purpose mixed-cargo ship
10:55<andythenorth>got that
10:55<andythenorth>rm livestock ship && rm reefer
10:55<andythenorth>done
11:11<andythenorth>ho ho
11:12<andythenorth>refittable capacity on container ships
11:12<andythenorth>trade speed for capacity
11:12<frosch123>did you find your ship?
11:12<andythenorth>I am short one pax ship
11:12<andythenorth>I have a gap in my table, but no gap in gameplay :P
11:12<frosch123>how can there be a gap between a single ship?
11:13<frosch123>you need two items to have a gap between them
11:13<andythenorth>empty row in the table
11:13<andythenorth>30 rows
11:13<andythenorth>one not filled :P
11:13<frosch123>oh, you mean if the purchase list has only one item, there are many empty rows
11:13<frosch123>yeah, i agree ottd should not display the list then
11:13<frosch123>and just build the ship
11:13<andythenorth>pax river boat?
11:14<andythenorth>nah
11:14<andythenorth>scrub that
11:14*andythenorth is out of ideas
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11:15<andythenorth>stern wheel paddle steamer?
11:15<andythenorth>for novelty :P
11:16-!-kais58|AFK is now known as kais58_
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>remind me that i won't ever let andythenorth touch any of my tracking tables
11:17<andythenorth>don't let pikka either
11:17<andythenorth>he's doing the same, only more quietly
11:18<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: there are still hopes that andy decides different in a week or so :p
11:19<andythenorth>all of FISH is still there
11:19<andythenorth>I'm not going to rm the repo :P
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think that's actually the worse part of it all
11:21<andythenorth>maybe I should try for 20 ships
11:21<andythenorth>that would really force the issue
11:22<andythenorth>currently there a few 'nice to have' ships left
11:23<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: well, it actually ensures that there is a grf for everyone at some point
11:23<frosch123>you just need to fetch when yours shows up
11:23<andythenorth>this silly rig supply ship isn't needed
11:23<andythenorth>also should I kill one of the hydrofoils? Eddi said they're too unbalanced for the game
11:25<frosch123>just give them proper intro dates
11:25<frosch123>do not introduce them in 1870
11:25<andythenorth>they're 1960 and 1975 or so currently :P
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>2050
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>or 2020
11:44<andythenorth>I don't play past 2020 :P
11:44<andythenorth>design goal is 1870-2020 :)
11:45<andythenorth>but I do wonder about 1900-2000 to match pikka
11:45<andythenorth>do same for HEQS, BANDIT, FIRS
11:45<frosch123>if you restrict to a single year and a single cargo, you can get away with a single ship
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11:55<andythenorth>frosch123: so what design goals would you set for a vehicle newgrf? o_O
11:57<frosch123>provide a variety of balanced vehicles which give the player an interesting choice at any point of time
11:57<frosch123>don't try to solve secondary gui issues by limiting the engine selection
11:58<frosch123>except by providing decent retire early values
11:58<frosch123>and by all means play without engines-never-expire
11:59<frosch123>if you play with engines-never-expire and think there are too many choices, then you cannot be helped
11:59<andythenorth>I think buy menu spam is a symptom - smell of a bad pattern
11:59<andythenorth>not a problem in itself
11:59<andythenorth>buy menu spam can be worked around
11:59<andythenorth>but what does buy menu spam say about gameplay balance?
11:59<frosch123>[17:57] <frosch123> don't try to solve secondary gui issues by limiting the engine selection <- this also means to give the player better filter functions in the gui, like that fs task providing company-specific manual retirement
12:00<andythenorth>exactly
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12:16<Eddi|zuHause>assuming 4 generations of ships (1870, 1920, 1960, 2000), 4 categories (small-river, medium-river, medium-sea, large-sea) and passenger/freight, you get 4*4*2=32 ships
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>without any "buy menu spam"
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>like i said to Pikka, over-minimization may be bad
12:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I have 30 ships ;)
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>exactly
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm saying you're trying to solve a problem that is no problem
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>because you're already near the optimal solution
12:20<andythenorth>but as mr. bird has said, TTD managed with 7 ships
12:20<andythenorth>so why so many?
12:20<andythenorth>is a question
12:20<andythenorth>one answer would be: TTD ships were totally lame
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>but as mister bird failed to see, TTD ships were horribly useless
12:21<@peter1138>ttd also started in 1950ish
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure if TTD already had refitting, but TTO had only ships for passengers/mail/coal/oil, and two generations
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12:24<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't really play any TTD at all, when i found TTD, there was already TTDPatch 1.7 or so
12:24<frosch123>ttd ships could refit to anything except pax and mail
12:24*peter1138 deletes his copies of BK tunnels on priniciple
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>what does BK stand for, actually?
12:25<@peter1138>ben_k ?
12:25<frosch123>ben k
12:26<@peter1138>hmm, 2cc set & 8/32bpp trains are all hidden away :p
12:26<NGC3982>Burger King.
12:28<__ln__>Burger King is good, but Jack in the Box is even better.
12:29<NGC3982>Is that a hamburger franchise?
12:29<__ln__>Yeah.
12:30<NGC3982>Neat. Never heard of it.
12:30<NGC3982>Sweden is represented with McDonalds, Burger King, Max and Frasses.
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>i think i heard the name, but i've never actually seen one
12:31*NGC3982 devoured double-cheeseburgers today.
12:31<NGC3982>Ordering only the burgers are great, but not that economical
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, if OpenTTD ever allows "enhanced tunnel heads", then they should come with builtin sprites that change the tunnel head appearance when something is above it
12:32<NGC3982>Five double-cheeseburgers are like 100SEK (or 15 dollars).
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>you spend 15$ on food?
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>for one person?
12:33<NGC3982>Yes.
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>for one meal?
12:33<NGC3982>Indeedly-doodly.
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>for one fast-food meal?
12:33<NGC3982>Yes. Fast food is not cheap in Sweden.
12:34<NGC3982>A normal menu meal is around 70-80SEK.
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12:34<Eddi|zuHause>the most expensive mcdoof meal i've seen was like 7€, the normal menus more like 5€
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>and a Döner costs around 3€
12:35<andythenorth>still can't fill one ship slot :P
12:35<andythenorth>maybe I just do a squid
12:35<andythenorth>or something else silly
12:35<frosch123>ecranoplane
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>(the latter one heavily depends on which city you are in, though)
12:35<NGC3982>Correction: Fast food is not as cheap in relative to other foods in Sweden, as in most other countries.
12:35<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: I see.
12:36<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: A Döner is a little roll of kebab-ish food, right?
12:36<NGC3982>Or does it only define the meat?
12:36<Zuu>NGC3982: I hope you don't call a "kebabrulle" a little roll :-)
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>a "Döner Kebab" means "rotating meat"
12:37<NGC3982>Zuu: My experience tells me that the Swedish Kebabrulle is a bit larger then most similar courses around Europe.
12:37<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Ah, i see.
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's not rolled
12:37<Zuu>NGC3982: Ok, I never had a Kebabrulle elsewhere. Actually it is several yeas since the last time I had one at all.
12:38<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: But yes, to return to subject, 100SEK and five double cheeseburgers is a lot of money and a lot of food for a fast food meal.
12:38<NGC3982>Though, that is something i can enjoy myself with, during my training.
12:38<NGC3982>Zuu: Oh.
12:38<NGC3982>Zuu: Well.. Good!
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: for 15€ you could go to a decent restaurant and get real food
12:39<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, i could. Didn't feel like it, though.
12:39<NGC3982>A good meal of sushi usually ends up at 13-17¤
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>and a normal sized Döner may cost between 1,50€ in some parts of berlin to 6€ in munich or so
12:40<NGC3982>At least around here. We don't really have fast food (as in 'lower quality') sushi in Kronoberg county.
12:40<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: 1,50¤ is a big city price.
12:41<NGC3982>For most places in Sweden, cheap fast foods are limited to the biggest cities.
12:41<NGC3982>Like the Malmö kebab/falaffel.
12:41<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: I really don't want to know what I am eating with a 1,50€ Döner though. Ignorance is bliss ;)
12:41<NGC3982>falafel*
12:42<NGC3982>Not comparing what a ¤ is worth, a "good" kebab/döner-ish meal in Sweden ends up around 6-9¤.
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i think horsemeat would be the least of the problems :p
12:43<frosch123>isn't horsemeat actually more expensive than cow?
12:43<frosch123>horse butchers always appeared like something special to me
12:43<NGC3982>Real horsemeat, made for horsemeat, yes.
12:43<NGC3982>Much, much more expencive.
12:43<frosch123>and horse sausages are usually quite small
12:44<NGC3982>Though, horsemeat as in "that dead horse we want to get rid off" can work out economic wise.
12:44<frosch123>how many dead horses could there be?
12:44<NGC3982>Yes, real horse meat feels like a speciality for me.
12:45<NGC3982>frosch123: Well, the current investigation shows that some Swedish frozen foods contained Romanian horse meat. Maybe they made a deal and bought your-random-local-dead-animal and made meat with it.
12:45<NGC3982>Heh, "made meat".
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>that's only because there are fewer "horse herds" than "cow herds"
12:45<NGC3982>It's really kind of scary.
12:46<andythenorth>is it going to weird you all out if the appearance of a ship model changes over time? Stats are same
12:46<frosch123>i think some years ago there was some kabab guy discovered, who breeded rats in a room below his restaurant
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12:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes.
12:46<andythenorth>figures
12:46<frosch123>like in demolition man :)
12:46<NGC3982>andythenorth: I think so.
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12:46<frosch123>NGC3982: how did they discover that the horse was romanian? :o
12:46<andythenorth>the alternative is a tedious, replace-like-for-like autoreplace, simply because the funnel and hull are slightly different
12:46<NGC3982>frosch123: The meat is imported from Romania.
12:46<NGC3982>frosch123: All of it.
12:48<NGC3982>Seriosly, Stem cell meat.
12:48<andythenorth>+1
12:48<NGC3982>The world needs it.
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>that always puzzled me... there is no sane reason why meat for frozen products needs to be shipped all through europe to be processed
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>so why is it done?
12:48<frosch123>shipping is just too cheap :p
12:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: because someone put too many refrigerated trucks in a newgrf, and now a purpose must be found :P
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>freeze the meat on site, then ship the frozen products...
12:49<andythenorth>shall I include a dredger for stupidity?
12:49<NGC3982>Shipping within EU is almost for free.
12:49<NGC3982>And Romaian laws (i guess) allow cheaper production.
12:50<NGC3982>Swedish meat production is extremely costly.
12:50<@Alberth>and european politicians make weird laws about subsidizing
12:50<NGC3982>OpenTTD developers*
12:50<NGC3982>;)
12:50<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: also, it is better to process the stuff in countries where you can ensure the workers that the product is sold somewhere else :p
12:50<__ln__>NGC3982: I don't think Jack in the Box is international, it's western US only.
12:50*Alberth always ignores the subsidies
12:51<NGC3982>__ln__: Oh, i see.
12:51<NGC3982>Alberth: Took me three years to get the energy to even google the term.
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>50% of EU funds go to farm subsidies
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>the largest part of that to france, actually
12:52<NGC3982>And we have a lot of food from France.
12:53<andythenorth>hmm how about a bigger fishing boat?
12:53<NGC3982>andythenorth: Yes!
12:53<andythenorth>what's that grf with fishing grounds in?
12:53<NGC3982>andythenorth: Also: A transformer ninja turtle robot.
12:53<NGC3982>andythenorth: FIRS?
12:54<andythenorth>so that standard fishing boat is 35t
12:54<andythenorth>but fishing grounds can produce in a range up to 64t / month
12:55<andythenorth>so big trawler...refittable to certain other cargos
12:55<andythenorth>done
12:55<andythenorth>think I've rebalanced everything :)
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13:33<oskari89>:)
13:39*Alberth feels very balanced
13:40*NGC3982 hangs a weight on the left hand.
13:41<@Alberth>you don't want balance?
13:42-!-Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail]
13:42*NGC3982 does feel a bit devilish.
13:43*Alberth fixes gravity
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13:46<oskari89>Someone should write patch for historic statistics on graphical form, such as town population
13:47<@peter1138>Someone™
13:47-!-Rait [~Rait@105-146-131-46.internet.emt.ee] has joined #openttd
13:48<oskari89>Yes :P
13:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24985 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-02-10 18:48:04 UTC)
13:48<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:48<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:48<@DorpsGek>turkish - 21 changes by magnum06
13:48<@DorpsGek>ukrainian - 43 changes by Strategy
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13:56<LordAro>heyo
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14:05<NGC3982>Hey, you guys are fantabulous on logic
14:05<NGC3982>http://www.thomann.de/se/millenium_bs500_set.htm
14:05<NGC3982>By judging the description; Does the package contain one or two stands?
14:05<NGC3982>:D
14:08*andythenorth didn't rebalance *everything*
14:08<andythenorth>just
14:08<andythenorth>a ship newgrf
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14:10<Zuu>Hello LordAro
14:10<LordAro>hi Zuu
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14:13<frosch123>NGC3982: it says "set of 2"
14:13<frosch123>so, unless you need two for one monitor, it should be two
14:14<NGC3982>(Y)
14:14<frosch123>ah, it is for speakers, not for displays
14:15<frosch123>so, yeah, then it is a set of two stand for 2 boxes
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14:18<NGC3982>That site is lethal
14:19*NGC3982 cart is so big right now.
14:19<NGC3982>:(
14:20<@Alberth>hi LordAro
14:20<LordAro>hai Alberth
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14:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r24986 /trunk/src (6 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-10 19:49:04 UTC)
14:49<@DorpsGek>-Change: Cleanup goals and cargo monitors of companies when they go bankrupt or are taken over.
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15:40<andythenorth>so shall I call it FISH 2, SQUID, or 30CC FISH?
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15:43<Supercheese>PISCES
15:43<andythenorth>herp
15:43<andythenorth>not bad
15:43<andythenorth>reverse it?
15:44<Supercheese>eh?
15:49<andythenorth>reverse-acronym
15:49<andythenorth>Purchase Indvidual Ships blah blah blah
15:50<Supercheese>Bah, why are recursive acronyms mandatory?
15:50<Supercheese>Oh wait not recursive
15:50<Supercheese>at least not necessarily :P
15:50<andythenorth>just acronym
15:50<Supercheese>Let's see...
15:51<andythenorth>Heavy Equipment Set is not recursive ;)
15:51<Supercheese>Yeah, realized that :P
15:52<Supercheese>Pelagic & Inland Ships for Every Situation
15:52<andythenorth>FISH Is Ships
15:52<Supercheese>PISCES
15:52<Supercheese>sound good?
15:52<andythenorth>Pisces Is Ships Cut Eviscerated Shortened
15:52<Supercheese>haha
15:54<andythenorth>I still prefer SQUID
15:54<andythenorth>SQUID eat FISH
15:54<andythenorth>FISH has been digested :P
15:55<Supercheese>Lots of things eat fish :P
15:55*Supercheese eats fish
15:55<Supercheese>What on Earth would SQUID acronym be, though
15:56<andythenorth>Ships Quite Useful Individual Designs
15:56<Supercheese>Eh :S
15:56<Supercheese>I think the Cut, Eviscerated, and Shortened more accurately describes the set ;)
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16:02<andythenorth>http://www.brothers-brick.com/2013/02/09/lego-doom-cacodemon/
16:03*Supercheese never really played DOOM
16:05<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24987 trunk/src/train_gui.cpp (2013-02-10 21:05:24 UTC)
16:05<@DorpsGek>-Fix: When choosing a train in a depot to attach a newly purchased wagon to, do not consider trains currently moving in and out of the depot.
16:05<Supercheese>What what, no drag&drop Newobject placement yet?
16:06<Supercheese>There should be A Patch For That™
16:06*Supercheese searches
16:13<Supercheese>No? How odd
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>$somebody decided that it wouldn't be necessary/useful
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16:22<Supercheese>Dutch Road Furniture set needs drag&drop
16:22<Supercheese>Trying to make a motorway is a massive pain without it
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>code it then :)
16:44-!-Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd []
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>a newgrf flag to allow dragging in X or Y (or both) directions
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>or recode the newgrf to include longer stretches as single object
16:45<Supercheese>why does it need to be a grf flag?
16:46<Supercheese>then all existing object grfs would have to be updated to set the flag
16:52<andythenorth>so random graphic variation is nice for vehicles
16:52<andythenorth>but how much is too much?
16:55-!-Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-10-125.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
17:01<Pikka>look out, it's andythenorth
17:02<andythenorth>omg
17:02<andythenorth>it's pikka chops
17:02<andythenorth>what a to do
17:02<Pikka>werd
17:13<Wolf01>'night all
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17:14<frosch123>night
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17:21<andythenorth>Pikka: 30 ships, done it. Couple that smell bad
17:21<Pikka>rotten FISH
17:21<andythenorth>yeah
17:21<andythenorth>that
17:21<andythenorth>very little model progression
17:21<Pikka>spoken to dan yet
17:22<Pikka>?
17:22<andythenorth>nerp
17:22<andythenorth>nor coxx
17:22<andythenorth>I'm mostly binning my own sprites though :P
17:22<andythenorth>which might ease the pain
17:23*Pikka nod
17:23<andythenorth>I considered 20, 1900-2000
17:24<andythenorth>but that's a bit overly militant, with the greatest respect to you and all that sail in you :P
17:24<Pikka>:]
17:24<Pikka>speaking of which
17:24<LordAro>huh. i seem to have lost 4GB of memory...
17:24<andythenorth>no sails
17:24<Pikka>http://pikkarail.com/junk/uglylist.png is fine right? No-one needs anything more? :)
17:25<Pikka>sails are funky though
17:25<andythenorth>Pikka: 'needs' is a strong word
17:26<andythenorth>I would have added an open box wagon, to mix things up a bit
17:26<Pikka>well
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17:26<andythenorth>express car handles mail?
17:26<Pikka>yes, it is the mail/valuables car
17:26<Pikka>goods/food too if you like
17:26<andythenorth>no fridge, right?
17:27<andythenorth>fridges are over-rated
17:27<Pikka>yes
17:27<Pikka>yes, no fridge
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17:27<Pikka>covered will probably look like a fridge if fitted to food, depending on set/era.
17:27<andythenorth>you don't need an open box wagon, but meh
17:27<Pikka>well
17:28<andythenorth>dropside :P
17:28<Pikka>I've said "hopper", it might be boxy depending, again, on graphics :P
17:28<andythenorth>I was thinking gondola / 5 plank
17:28<andythenorth>but there's really no need
17:28<Pikka>there is indeed really no need :]
17:28<andythenorth>bricks :P
17:29<Pikka>also, things like "realistically slow" early freight wagons would disadvantage those sets which have speed as their thing.
17:29<andythenorth>you have 8?
17:30<andythenorth>8 is a nice number
17:30<andythenorth>30CC FISH is on this weird 8 + 2 thing
17:30<Pikka>squiddy
17:30<andythenorth>3 x 10CC SQUID EAT FISH
17:30<andythenorth>is my working title
17:31<andythenorth>catchy?
17:31<andythenorth>I need some drawers
17:31<Pikka>fabulous
17:31<Pikka>I still need to do my ship set some time
17:31<Pikka>just so I can use the name
17:31<andythenorth>I haz spare graphics now
17:31<andythenorth>totally unused
17:31<andythenorth>what's the name?
17:31<Pikka>eh
17:31<Pikka>but I want sails :P
17:31<andythenorth>lame
17:31<Pikka>fission
17:32<andythenorth>:P
17:32<andythenorth>sails are gone by 1900 in my view
17:32<andythenorth>at least for all progressive transport empires
17:32<Pikka>eh
17:32<Pikka>even if they were, cool > realistic :P
17:32<andythenorth>so BANDIT....has a few trucks until 1945, then everything after that is a Pete 379 forever more
17:32<@Terkhen>good night
17:32<Pikka>sounds good
17:33<Pikka>goodnight Terkhen
17:33<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: if you want really minimalistic, you could get away with a "packaged wagon" a "bulk wagon" and a "liquid wagon"
17:33<Pikka>any futuriztik trukz or can the 21st century bugger off?
17:33<andythenorth>yes
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>(for the respective cargo classes)
17:34<andythenorth>I see a lot of futuristic concept trucks
17:34<Pikka>if I wanted to be really minimalistic, eddi, I could have one wagon that carries everything
17:34<andythenorth>and then they turn up with a diesel engine, looking like last year's volvo, with new lights
17:34<Pikka>but I don't
17:34<andythenorth>so what should I use for VERY LARGE FERRY (1600 PAX)
17:34<andythenorth>?
17:34<Pikka>ew
17:35<Pikka>I dunno, do you need one?
17:35<andythenorth>think so
17:35<andythenorth>might smell
17:35<andythenorth>I think they ought to be fun in big cities
17:35<Pikka>you had a big ferry, didn't you?
17:35<andythenorth>yes, this one replaces it
17:35<andythenorth>after 45 years or something
17:35<andythenorth>I always use hydrofoils personally
17:36<andythenorth>faster > bigger
17:36<Pikka>yes
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>haven't you removed like 5 ferries, just put one back?
17:36<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: most of the ferries survived
17:36<andythenorth>they're mostly quite different
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm, ok
17:36<Pikka>I got about as far as planning the ferries for fission
17:36<Zuu>andythenorth: a futuristic ferry that resizes passengers to a 10th of their usual size when on the ferry :-)
17:36<andythenorth>could do a supercat
17:36<andythenorth>fast
17:36<Pikka>the first one is actually the largest D:
17:37<Pikka>I should probably swap its capacity with the second one...
17:37<Pikka>that looks a bit better
17:37<Pikka>anyway, the largest ferry I had was 320 pax
17:38<Pikka>which admittedly might be a bit small, especially if people aren't playing with TaI-like towns and small maps :o
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>old fish probably had too many in-between steps
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>there's not much point in having a ship twice the size, just use two ships
17:39<Pikka>it's all about the min/max
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>but 10 times makes a serious difference
17:39<andythenorth>yeah, but 10k pax is rather a lot :P
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>especially if you consider running costs
17:40<andythenorth>Pikka: even TaI can turn out a lot of pax
17:40<andythenorth>big cat http://hhvferry.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/IMG_8536_TN.jpg
17:41<andythenorth>won't fit canals :P
17:41<Supercheese>Big cat -- Lion?
17:41<Supercheese>Tiger?
17:41<Pikka>too big for me
17:41<Pikka>http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/RCI_IndyOTS-2011-03-28/Alges_110328-1880_b.jpg this one's the fast ferry for fission
17:42<andythenorth>shiny
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17:42<Pikka>45mph, 160 pax...
17:43<andythenorth>teeny tiny
17:43-!-zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd
17:43<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSS_1500
17:43<andythenorth>1500 pax, sam speed
17:43<andythenorth>same *
17:43<Pikka>yes
17:43<Pikka>but I like tiny :P
17:43<Pikka>and not realistic capacity anyway
17:45<andythenorth>600t, 45knots http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSV-2_Swift
17:45<andythenorth>'vomit comet'
17:45<andythenorth>I'll put that in for fast freight :P
17:45<Pikka>D:
17:51<andythenorth>or not
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18:00<andythenorth>Pikka: how much faster would you have ships go? 1.5x ? 2x?
18:00<Pikka>a parameter for up to 2x
18:01<Pikka>so yes, perhaps both 1.5 and 2 as options
18:01<andythenorth>the game should just do it, and lie
18:01<Pikka>eeh
18:01<Pikka>maybe
18:01<andythenorth>it's going to bug me seeing '36mph' for coasters
18:01<oskari89>!seen as
18:01<oskari89>Blah, wrong
18:01<oskari89>@seen as
18:01<@DorpsGek>oskari89: I have not seen as.
18:02<andythenorth>Pikka: according to 10CC rules, you get two more 'wagons' :P
18:02<andythenorth>you have to fill those slots o_O
18:03<Pikka>there are no rules
18:03<Pikka>also what about the 2 monos and 2 maglevs?
18:03<andythenorth>meh
18:03<andythenorth>what do they get? 'maglev car'?
18:03<Pikka>they get the same wagons as trains
18:04<Pikka>there might be a parameter to limit them to passengers and express, but there might not.
18:05-!-Superuser [~root@host81-129-131-143.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
18:05<Supercheese>Vacuum tube trains were pax/mail/goods only, and users demanded freight wagons...
18:05<Supercheese>"must ... transport ... coal... at Mach 19
18:05<Supercheese>"
18:05<Superuser>oh boy
18:05<Superuser>{LTBLUE}- {CARGO_LONG} ({CARGO_SHORT}) (x{NUM})
18:06<Supercheese>Although with a vacuum no speed of sound...
18:06<Superuser>(yes, I'm at it again, hopefull I can finish the last 1k string before ottd 1.3)
18:06<Superuser>× is the multiplication sign in Unicode, not x (that's an x)
18:07<Superuser>change it? :D
18:07<Superuser>this is not the only string affected
18:07<Superuser>there's maybe 10, 20
18:07<Superuser>Anyone?
18:08<Zuu>Superuser: What is the name of that string?
18:08<Zuu>STR_...
18:08<Superuser>ah I forgot
18:08<Superuser>STR_VEHICLE_DETAILS_CARGO_EMPTY
18:09<Superuser>there's quite a few of them, I'd grep for x{NUM}
18:09<Superuser>dunno if grep can search multiple files though :(
18:10<Zuu>Its used in the road vehicle details window.
18:12<andythenorth>Pikka: future is modular innit http://old.pause.com/lego/pix/trains/4559.jpg
18:13<andythenorth>pods
18:13<Pikka>totes
18:13<andythenorth>only one wagon for maglev, one for mono
18:13<Zuu>STR_VEHICLE_DETAILS_CARGO_EMPTY contains :{LTBLUE}Empty. The string that contains the x, is STR_VEHICLE_DETAILS_CARGO_FROM_MULT
18:13<andythenorth>there's your 10
18:13<andythenorth>done
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18:13<Superuser>Talking of the future®
18:14<andythenorth>you can go back to bed, everything is finished
18:14<Superuser>I have seen the future of the web forum
18:14<Superuser>It is beautiful.
18:14<Superuser>http://www.discourse.org/
18:14*andythenorth is going to bed, everything is definitely finished for today
18:14<Pikka>goodnight wallyweb
18:14<Superuser>Discourse is web forum 2.0
18:14<Pikka>tomorrow you can work out av9 for me :)
18:14<Zuu>Superuser: STR_VEHICLE_DETAILS_CARGO_FROM_MULT is used for the details window of trains.
18:14<andythenorth>I thought we did AV9 already?
18:14<Pikka>nope
18:14<andythenorth>sikorsky, 737, 747
18:15<Zuu>str = FreightWagonMult(item->cargo) > 1 ? STR_VEHICLE_DETAILS_CARGO_FROM_MULT : STR_VEHICLE_DETAILS_CARGO_FROM;
18:15<Superuser>yes, seems insignificant, if you are keen on changing this though (a) you're probably very bored, and that's okay, and (b) you should do it to ALL the strings which require a multiplication sign
18:15<andythenorth>Supercheese: jeff atwood eh?
18:15<andythenorth>interesting
18:16<Supercheese>wot
18:16<Superuser>I'm Superuser, not Supercheese
18:17<Superuser>and yes, that's how I actually found it
18:17<Pikka>737s and 747s are dull
18:17<andythenorth>herp, silly old autocomplete
18:17<Supercheese>:P
18:17<andythenorth>Pikka: dc10 and antonov
18:17<Pikka>probably
18:17<andythenorth>you want real planes, or pretend?
18:17<Superuser>I thought he (rather surprisingly) had something of a hard-on for open source, despite being a .NET programmer
18:17<Supercheese>"Large body airliner"
18:17<Pikka>dunno
18:17<Supercheese>"Small airliner"
18:17<Pikka>I'll see how I go
18:18<Supercheese>"Small turboprop"
18:18<andythenorth>next up, redesign FIRS
18:18<Supercheese>"Rigid Airship"
18:18<andythenorth>I guess I'd better rename FIRS
18:18<andythenorth>for the new version
18:19<Pikka>rename it something that isn't an acronym
18:19<Supercheese>SPRUCES
18:19<Supercheese>PINES
18:19<Pikka>acronyms are passe
18:19<andythenorth>AAP?
18:19<Pikka>YTA
18:19<andythenorth>HD
18:20<Zuu>or just "industries"
18:20<Zuu>The new thing. Things named after what they are. For extra confusion. :-)
18:20<andythenorth>fair point
18:20<andythenorth>did MB no harm
18:20<andythenorth>NewShips
18:20<andythenorth>NewStations
18:21<Zuu>Like there is a GS called CitiBuilder which is a GS implementation of a city builder script among many different implementations.
18:21<Zuu>CityBuilder*
18:21<Pikka>NewEngineeringSupplies
18:22<andythenorth>hmm
18:22<andythenorth>SQUID
18:22<andythenorth>is a nice name
18:22<Pikka>sure
18:22<andythenorth>also, wikipedia has interesting facts about them
18:22<Pikka>but it doesn't have to stand for anything :P
18:22<andythenorth>they can fly
18:22<Zuu>Or NoIndustries
18:22<andythenorth>CHIPS doesn't stand for anything
18:22<andythenorth>it just goes with FISH
18:23<Zuu>If it would be my set, it could be SuperIndustries or Industryless. :-)
18:23<andythenorth>squid have the second most extreme penis-to-body-length ratio in the animal kingdom
18:23<andythenorth>they can solve puzzles
18:23<andythenorth>they have three hearts
18:23<Pikka>I think instead of SQUID you should call it Calamari
18:23<andythenorth>yeah
18:24<Pikka>Calimaritime
18:24<andythenorth>ho ho
18:24<andythenorth>but I'll keep typing it wrong :
18:24<Pikka>-i+a
18:24<andythenorth>see, I can't even type a :) properly
18:24<Pikka>Calamaritime
18:24<Pikka>CalaMaritTime
18:24<Pikka>-t
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18:25<Pikka>CalaMariTime
18:25<Pikka>I can't type it right either
18:25<Zuu>Yeah, get a long name so that you can read/watch people saying "that neighbours script" because they cannot remember the full name. :-)
18:26<Superuser>andythenorth: is FIRS related to BURS? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrU_ef7DQgs
18:26<Pikka>call it "Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines, Or How I Flew from London to Paris in 25 Hours 11 Minutes"
18:26<andythenorth>Squid (CalaMaritime)
18:26<andythenorth>so what should I delete in FIRS?
18:26<Pikka>no idea
18:26<andythenorth>probably nothing
18:27<andythenorth>I am ok with FIRS
18:27<andythenorth>just play the basic economies, all is well :P
18:27<Pikka>probably, FIRS is a non-minimalist set
18:27<Pikka>unlike GECKO or whatever I end up calling it
18:27<andythenorth>the only thing I'd delete is the idea of providing valid industry chains from year 0
18:27<andythenorth>which is a silly headache
18:27<Pikka>yes
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18:53<Superuser>Internally
18:54<Superuser>if you set say a road vehicle to a go a really long way along which there are multiple depots, will it stop at more than one before reaching its destination if necessary? or just one?
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19:01<Superuser>The above is extremely important, so please just look at it when taking a glance at your client
19:02-!-Pixa [~pixa@85.210.78.146] has joined #openttd
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19:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it will stop at more than one depot (unless you give explicit depot orders)
19:07<Superuser>ok thanks
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19:30<Superuser>http://translator.openttd.org/en/trunk/el_GR/STR_ORDER_CONDITIONAL_VARIABLE_TOOLTIP
19:30<Superuser>what in the world
19:30<Superuser>"{BLACK}Vehicle data to base jumping on"
19:30<Superuser>what does THAT mean???
19:30-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d154-20-132-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
19:30<Superuser>my mind is full of fuck
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>it should probably be reworded...
19:37-!-pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-060-186.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit []
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>... although i can't find any sane version of that sentence
19:38<Superuser>what does it mean?
19:39<Superuser>also, you're just an hg commit from changing the sentence ;)
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have commit access
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21:35<@peter1138>everyone can commit in hg or git
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22:17<Pikka>can they though?
22:19<@peter1138>yes
22:19<@peter1138>now why has evolution rolled back to mid-january?
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23:46<__ln__>tere hõmmikust
---Logclosed Mon Feb 11 00:00:44 2013