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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-11

---Logopened Mon Feb 11 00:00:44 2013
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01:46<Pokka>that's because
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02:08<Pikka>good morning andythenorth
02:10<andythenorth>bonsoir
02:13<Pikka>has inspiration struck overnight?
02:13<andythenorth>AV9?
02:13<andythenorth>call it something else
02:14<andythenorth>also, for long-lived ship classes, do they deserve a name?
02:14<andythenorth>or can I get away with 'Large Trawler', 'Small Coaster'
02:15<Supercheese>I think everyone will have different opinions on that
02:15<Pikka>probably don't need a name if they're generic types
02:15<Pikka>what's wrong with av9?
02:16<andythenorth>'meh'
02:16<andythenorth>mix it up a bit?
02:16<andythenorth>BlackBox.grf
02:18<Pikka>clever names are all very well
02:18<Pikka>but you don't think "slartibartfast.grf is the new 68903.grf" isn't a bit confusing or past-care-factor for the average punter?
02:19<andythenorth>10CC_Planes.grf
02:19<andythenorth>just 10CC everything
02:19<andythenorth>what's you new PBI called?
02:19<Pikka>dunno yet
02:19<Pikka>I called it gecko in the blog post, because I didn't want to call it TaI
02:19<Supercheese>TaI for me implies the townset
02:19<Supercheese>not the industryset
02:21<andythenorth>Ta*
02:23<Supercheese>Tee Ay Eye
02:25<Pikka>I decided to drop TaI because I haven't seen anyone else yet *not* write it "Tal".
02:25<@peter1138>what
02:26<@peter1138>liar
02:26<@peter1138>i never write it "Tal"
02:26<Pikka>you don't count
02:26<@peter1138>oh ok
02:26<Supercheese>Typeface issues
02:26<Pikka>I'm just talking about the plebs :)
02:27<Supercheese>TaI is identical to Tal in half or so of the typically-used fonts
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02:28<Pikka>"CERE"
02:28<Pikka>see, this is what I'm talking about
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02:29<Pikka>we already have two too many cargo labels for grain, so ECS decides to fix it by creating another one.
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02:30<andythenorth>Pikka: definitely call something Black Box http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lOb799cTxM
02:30<andythenorth>maybe I just call new FISH KLF.grf
02:31<Pikka>should be a law against it
02:32<andythenorth>against disco?
02:33<Pikka>yes
02:36<andythenorth>so can I get away with using these as random graphics on same ship ID?
02:36<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3764/same_or_not.png
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02:39<Pikka>don't see why not
02:41<andythenorth>\o/
02:44<andythenorth>what about these two?
02:44<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3767/same_or_not_2.png
02:45<Pikka>first pme
02:45<Pikka>one
02:45<Pikka>is a steam ship, and the second a diesel?
02:45<Pikka>possibly as generations, not as randoms
02:46<andythenorth>also different hull length
02:46<andythenorth>so probably I can...
02:46<andythenorth>- do random graphics, which keeps me and Dan and Coxx happy, because we have a bad addiction to shipspotting.com
02:46<@peter1138>611 downloads whoop
02:46<@peter1138>people download any old shite
02:47<@peter1138>fillum at eleven
02:47<andythenorth>- but they have to be same hull length, same stats, and recognisably same ship ID
02:49<andythenorth>FISH 2 had this crappy generations thing
02:49-!-KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd
02:49<andythenorth>"oh it's like the last ship, but 1mph faster, and 70t more capacity"
02:49<andythenorth>blah
02:50<andythenorth>tedious autoreplace-scrap-a-few-ships-because-there's-too-much-capacity-on-the-route-meh
02:56<andythenorth>so Pikka what do _you_ want from AV9? o_O
02:56<Pikka>dunno
02:56<andythenorth>cake?
02:56<Pikka>not thinking about it yet :)
02:57<andythenorth>Everything Is Zepellins
02:57<Supercheese>Awesome
02:58<Supercheese>AvZ
02:58<andythenorth>:)
02:58<Supercheese>100% rigid airships
02:58*Supercheese 's dream come true
02:58<andythenorth>Zeppelin, Spruce Goose, Concorde, Osprey Tiltrotor
02:58<andythenorth>done
02:58<Supercheese>Concorde can buzz off
02:58<Supercheese>Keep the rest :D
02:58<Supercheese>Maybe add a PBY Catalina for good measure
02:59<Pikka>splendid
03:00<Pikka>I'll probably genericise the planes a bit, and bias them towards personal favourites ;)
03:00<Supercheese>Don't we all :)
03:00<Pikka>I'm thinking no airships
03:00<Supercheese>:( :(
03:01<Pikka>airships are terrible
03:01<andythenorth>grfs are 99 flake
03:01<Pikka>yes
03:01<andythenorth>two-thirds vanilla and cone
03:01<Supercheese>Airships are cool, not efficient
03:01<andythenorth>one-thirds flake and sauce
03:06<Supercheese>Pikka: running sounds for the aircraft?
03:06*Supercheese very much likes UKRS running sounds
03:07<andythenorth>hmm
03:08*andythenorth wonders if BANDIT could randomise graphics between cabover and conventional trucks
03:08<andythenorth>could / should
03:08<andythenorth>length would change
03:09<Pikka>no it wouldn't
03:09<andythenorth>difference isn't big enough to bother?
03:09<andythenorth>keep same chassis frame length?
03:09<Pikka>keep the same length, or just have empty space at the front of the cabover
03:10<andythenorth>weird turning offset o_O
03:11<andythenorth>anyway, $someone should get on and write frosh's spec for vehicle 'views'
03:12<andythenorth>then players could choose stuff that's only graphical
03:15<andythenorth>Pikka: eh, it's not buy menu spam that's the problem, it's gameplay spam
03:15<Pikka>is it?
03:15<andythenorth>yarp
03:15<andythenorth>verily and stuff
03:15<Pikka>keeping stuff simple is nice :)
03:15<andythenorth>means I might get 1.0 on a grf :P
03:16*andythenorth shoud stop making grf
03:16<andythenorth>and go make childcare and then internets
03:18<Eddi|zuHause>internets are overrated
03:19<Pikka>okiedokie
03:19<Pikka>hmm
03:19<andythenorth>mmh
03:19<Pikka>right-justified buy menu sprites are for yes?
03:19<Pikka>or for no?
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03:20<Pikka>http://www.pikkarail.com/junk/asdf.png
03:22<andythenorth>for no
03:22<andythenorth>center-align, like god and CS intended
03:22<andythenorth>although it does create a nice center-edge
03:22<Pikka>eh
03:23<Pikka>God's alright
03:23<Pikka>CS is a bit of a nong
03:23<Pikka>I dunno, it was just an idea
03:24<andythenorth>:)
03:24<andythenorth>is that the sprite size you're using?
03:24<Pikka>it's the normal sprite size
03:25<Pikka>although, in that picture, the wagons are "large" loading gauge, and the loco is "small" loading gauge.
03:25<Pikka>so it's 1px lower than the wagons
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03:30<andythenorth>Pikka: /me likes that sprite size
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03:30<Pikka>in the horizontal views, they're the same size as every vehicle ever drawn :P
03:31<Pikka>the theory is that these are the "bare" vehicle sprites
03:31<Pikka>when you build a wagon and add it to a 10CC locomotive, it will get a proper model
03:31<Pikka>ie, a country and era specific sprite set
03:31<Pikka>and cargo
03:32<andythenorth>I need something similar for Bandit
03:32<andythenorth>maybe ships too
03:32<andythenorth>ghost sprites
03:34<andythenorth>'contents may vary from packaging'
03:34<andythenorth>'photo for illustrative purposes only'
03:34<Supercheese>'some assembly required'
03:34<Supercheese>:D
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03:37<Supercheese>Loading livestock on FISH barges is weird, no specific cargo support so all cargoes look the same
03:37<Supercheese>Poor pigs and cows have been crushed into a generic brown mush O_o
03:38<andythenorth>been thinking about that
03:39<Supercheese>Didn't Mr. NUTS offer his cargo graphics?
03:39<@Alberth>moin
03:40<Pikka>daylength people are silly
03:40<andythenorth>did you figure that by reading, or simply the wall of text?
03:40<Supercheese>Can't /ignore the daylength thread, I tried
03:41<andythenorth>my favourite word of last year: tl;dr
03:41<andythenorth>followed closely by: omnishambles
03:41<Pikka>I don't know what they want to achieve. The explanation for "why" is "many players have always been interested".
03:42<andythenorth>both words apply to that thread
03:42<andythenorth>I wanted daylength
03:42<andythenorth>ask why?
03:42<Pikka>why?
03:42<andythenorth>because newgrfs offer vehicle progression so fast that I never really get to watch the trains
03:42<andythenorth>can you think of a solution?
03:42<@Alberth>I already asked for a clear goal description, but they just went on with details
03:42<Supercheese>Year cheat
03:42<Supercheese>Save/load
03:42<Pikka>one or two, one or two :)
03:43<andythenorth>NARS 2 is a master criminal
03:43<@Alberth>andythenorth: less vehicles in the newgrf, with longer model life time? :)
03:43<Supercheese>I sometimes set up a nice rail line, save before I start it up, watch it run happily for a bit and monitor for problems, then load the save and fix any problems and move on to the next rail line
03:43<Supercheese>rinse repeat
03:43<andythenorth>GP9, GP38, SD40, all come along in about 20 mins of game time
03:43<Pikka>NARS2 is a steaming pile of seemed-like-a-good-idea-at-the-time
03:43<andythenorth>NARS 2 is a lot of fun
03:44<andythenorth>like playing with mud
03:44<andythenorth>or face paints
03:44<andythenorth>it's not a game though
03:44<andythenorth>it's still my second favourite train grf
03:44<@Alberth>playing with mud is not a game? :o
03:44<andythenorth>it's ludic
03:45<andythenorth>it's probably not a game
03:45<andythenorth>you can play games in mud
03:45<Supercheese>"ludic", I hope that is a real adjective
03:45*Supercheese will use it if it is :)
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03:45<andythenorth>it's latin and crap
03:45<Supercheese>Yes
03:45<andythenorth>means 'play' and some other things
03:46<Supercheese>Well, just an english-adjetive form of the latin verb
03:46<Supercheese>it seems you can get away with that for most any latin word :P
03:47<andythenorth>Alberth: less vehicles in the newgrf, with longer model life time? <- orly, who'd be thinking of that? o_O
03:48<@Alberth>yeah, it is not realistic not to include all historic models of a country!!
03:48<Supercheese>Anyway time for sleep
03:48<@Alberth>good night Supercheese
03:48<Supercheese>valete omnes
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03:55*andythenorth -> bye
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04:05<Twofish>Saw some OpenTTD screen shots online - and now I just want to get home from work :(
04:06<Twofish>Even though I guess that there is a possibility that "someone" at home want me to do something other around the house rather than making money in a game :p
04:12<@Alberth>browsing screen shots is dangerous :p
04:14<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you could come across some with opengfx maglev, which seriously hurts your eyes
04:14<Twofish>Well, I stumbled upon them. Haven't given TTD any thoughts for a couple of months... But now, I just want to lay some rail roads...
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05:45<andythenorth>Pikka: go to bed, the sun is going down in Brisbane
05:45<andythenorth>or has alrady
05:45<andythenorth>you might turn into a gremlin
05:47<Pikka>does it
05:48<Pikka>oh
05:48<Pikka>mb just wants to be helpful, good
05:49-!-Polleke [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
05:49<andythenorth>I find him heplful
05:50<__ln__>@seen Polleke
05:50<@DorpsGek>__ln__: I have not seen Polleke.
05:50<andythenorth>Squid is basically NewShips it turns out
05:50<andythenorth>how rare
05:56<Pikka>oops
05:57<Pikka>better add sailing ships!
06:10<@peter1138>hi
06:10<Pikka>hello peeter
06:12<__ln__>breaking news: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-21411304
06:16<__ln__>the Pope is going to resign
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06:23<__ln__>http://en.radiovaticana.va/articolo.asp?c=663815
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>i never knew that is even an option
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>apparently only one pope ever resigned, Coelestin V. in 1294
06:30<SpComb>wikipedia says: Age at death: 85 years, 279 days (living)
06:30<__ln__>other sources say it would have happened in 1415, but do not mention the name.
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.titanic-magazin.de/uploads/pics/Papstruecktritt.jpg
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07:00<MNIM>__ln__: some gregorius
07:02<Pikka>peter: don't
07:03<Pikka>just ignore them and maybe they'll go away
07:03<@peter1138>:p
07:04<andythenorth>seaplanes
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07:05<Pikka>I'm making a seaplane set
07:05<Pikka>I see a plane and I don't include it
07:06<andythenorth>this is very dilient of you
07:06<andythenorth>diligent even
07:06*andythenorth is not diligent at typing
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>someone had this in yesterday's calendar sheet: https://twitter.com/K_SA/status/300931826619387904/photo/1 ("holy something, tomorrow i quit")
07:10<andythenorth>Pikka: 10CC RandomPrupleThings
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07:10<andythenorth>silly trains
07:10<Pikka>scrubblestrains 2000
07:10<andythenorth>that
07:10<andythenorth>self propelled rail gun
07:10<andythenorth>for destroying castles, purpose of
07:11<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav
07:11<Pikka>now you're just being silly :)
07:12<Pikka>peter: you could of course make the whole discussion moot by simply creating the callback and committing it to trunk :)
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: strange, i only knew "Dora" before, never heard "Schwerer Gustav"
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07:15<@peter1138>and the next commit would be removing the "is an ai" flag :p
07:17<Pikka>suits me
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>if the intention is only to give some diversity to players, then the ai flag is not needed at all
07:33<@Alberth>Pikka: how can you ever do 'enabling vehicles as "rewards" ' in newgrf ?
07:33<andythenorth>how can't you?
07:33<Pikka>I have no idea, Alberth
07:33<Pikka>I should just say what I want and why I want it and not try and spice it up with what I think other people might want. :)
07:34<@Alberth>you made it part of a newgrf request
07:36<@Alberth>why would it be bad to strip those options away in the program code instead?
07:37<Pikka>strip which options?
07:37<@Alberth>options to buy some vehicle type(s)
07:38<Pikka>how does the program code know which vehicles to strip?
07:38<@Alberth>I guess I am thrown off by "a callback to add/remove vehicles from the purchase list", is that a dynamic property or a static property?
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07:39<Pikka>it's a callback that runs whenever the purchase list is opened (and, possibly preferably if a "vehicle count" var is included, when a vehicle is purchased)
07:39<Pikka>so it's dynamic, yes
07:39<@Alberth>the program needs to know either way, or it would not be able to hand it over to the NewGRF. My problem is why pass it on to the NewGRF, as it does not seem to do more than just do what the program already knows
07:40<Pikka>I don't understand what you're saying
07:40<Pikka>it seems to me like "the program already handles the speed of trains, so why have a speed property for trains in newgrf"
07:40<@Alberth>you seem to assume that the program gives you the options what a user can buy, right?
07:41<Pikka>yes
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>internally, there is already a bitmask which companies a vehicle is available to
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>it "just" needs a (monthly?) callback to update this bitmask
07:42<@Alberth>what do you do with it in the NewGRF other than not returning those vehicles that are 'forbidden' ?
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>currently that bitmask has one of three states: no company, all companies or one single company
07:42<Pikka>nothing
07:42<@Alberth>so why pass it on to the newgrf in the first place?
07:42<@Alberth>let the program handle it
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: you could force EMU wagons available when a "master" vehicle is available, without delays or prototpye phases
07:43<Pikka>okay
07:43<Pikka>but the newgrf needs to be able to tell the program which vehicles are forbidden, right?
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>and (lacking vehicle "views") it could make several versions of a vehicle available with one single prototype
07:43<@Alberth>(01:53:22 PM) Pikka: it seems to me like "the program already handles the speed of trains, so why have a speed property for trains in newgrf" <-- this is subtly different, the newgrf states the proprty values (ie max speed), the program handles the actual speed
07:44<Pikka>yes
07:44<Pikka>and in this case the newgrf states whether a vehicle should be shown, and the program actually shows it (or not)
07:44<@Alberth>but you don't have that data, you ask that from the program as well
07:45<Pikka>wat
07:45<@Alberth>ie it's like the program gives you the max speed, and then you return it to the program to use
07:45<Pikka>are you talking about "enabling vehicles as "rewards"", or about the general concept of the callback
07:45<Pikka>?
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i said, the game already has this data, there is just no NewGRF-y way to set it
07:46<Pikka>the general concept is, the newgrf tells the game whether or not to show a vehicle
07:47<Pikka>"enabling vehicles as "rewards"" is something I have no idea about or interest in, and I shouldn't have put in the feature request. :)
07:47<@Alberth>but the newgrf does not add anything to the data given from the program, does it
07:47<andythenorth>potatoes
07:47<andythenorth>newgrf returns 0 or 1
07:47<andythenorth>is all
07:47<andythenorth>according to variables that newgrf can access
07:47<andythenorth>how that works with GS is brain-ache
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>the callback result would be the 15-bit bitmask
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>one bit for each company
07:48<Pikka>no it isn't
07:48<Pikka>because no-one's thinking about how that works with GS
07:48<Pikka>GS can go jump
07:48<andythenorth>brain-ache solved
07:48<andythenorth>simples
07:48<@Alberth>GS is a different problem imho
07:49<Pikka>yes
07:49<Pikka>but not one I'm interested in
07:49*Pikka should rewrite the feature request without added greebles, perhaps?
07:49<@Alberth>or with some clarifications
07:50<@Alberth>and it is fine to say that you expect some stuff to happen outside the newgrf, but it should be clear imho
07:50<Pikka>it's a little annoying that you can't edit posts on flyspray
07:50<Pikka>I don't expect anything to happen outside the newgrf :)
07:51<@Alberth>the world ends at the newgrf boundary :p
07:52<andythenorth>herp GS.
07:52<andythenorth>is supposed to be completely decoupled from any newgrf
07:52<andythenorth>so 'rewards' would be insanely hard
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>can't possibly be done with some (AI Callback) communication layer
07:54<Pikka>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5471 there :)
07:55<Pikka>removed any GS or AI references
07:55<Pikka>and
07:56<Pikka>I requested the wrong one to be closed, oops :)
07:57<Pikka>flysprayman, please fix my mistake, I accidentally requested closure on http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5470 :O
07:59<@Alberth>fixed :)
07:59<Pikka>you typo'd the link in the closure message for 5467 though ;)
08:00<Pikka>4571 instead of 5471
08:00<andythenorth>everyone should have coffee
08:00*Pikka has had whiskey
08:00<Pikka>coffee would be good
08:00<@Alberth>adding a new description to the existing one would have been easier :)
08:00<Pikka>but I can't edit it, and a new description in the comments would be overlooked
08:01<Pikka>or at least, people would not stop paying attention to the distracting stuff :)
08:01<@Alberth>thanks for noting my typo
08:06<andythenorth>is whiskey a Brisbane obsession?
08:06<andythenorth>or do I just happen to know whiskey-fanciers?
08:06<Pikka>I thought it was a universal obsession?
08:06<Pinkbeast>Here we are obsessed with whisky
08:06<Pikka>or at least amongst gentlefolk of taste and distinction
08:07<Flygon>Brisbane is full of irishmen
08:07<Flygon>Apperantly
08:07*Flygon is a Victorian... sooo, at least 87% Irish
08:08<Pikka>most brisbanites drink either rum and coke or the cheapest possible beer, in my experience.
08:09<Flygon>When I went to Brisbane... I nearly got ran over by Bicycle taxi's
08:09<Pikka>eddi, a) didn't I already say that, and b) "circumventing the builtin randomisation", GEE THANKS FOR THAT.
08:10<Flygon>My Tram-dodging skills are worthless
08:10<Flygon>But yet
08:10<Flygon>Every single Brisbanite I met was very kind
08:11<Flygon>The lack of Asians was discerning, though
08:11<Flygon>Anyway, dishes time
08:12<Pikka>"The lack of Asians was discerning"?...
08:13<Snail>pikka: concerning your proposal, it would be interesting to put engines in "groups
08:13<Snail>"
08:14<Snail>and then allow company A to have engines of group 1, company B would have engines of group 2 etc
08:15<Pikka>that's basically what I'm proposing it for, Snail
08:15<Snail>next step could be to only have some refits available for certain companies
08:16<Snail>like, in my set, certain vehicles are available in multiple historical companies' liveries (through a refit to "0 passengers")
08:16<@Alberth>what worries me a lot is how to handle the dynamics of it; how to decide when to redraw the buy menu?
08:16<andythenorth>"you only get to haul grain, you lucky bugger"
08:16<Snail>so it would be interesting if the same ID would be available for all, but each in-game company would only have certain refits
08:16<andythenorth>"but you have the exclusive contract on it"
08:17<@Alberth>andythenorth: \o/
08:17<@Alberth>although I prefer hauling woody products :)
08:17<andythenorth>Alberth: see, the newgrf could do that
08:18<Pikka>Snail: you can already do liveries by company, can't you? :)
08:18<andythenorth>but it would be better if GS could control that, for laughs
08:18<andythenorth>but I can't see how it can possibly done in detail
08:18<andythenorth>and it has a bazillion edge cases
08:18<@Alberth>obviously, the GS needs an interface to the program bits, and the program gives those bits to the newgrf
08:19<andythenorth>hard to communicate intention though?
08:19<andythenorth>my case is pretty simple, but could explode easily
08:19<@Alberth>probably harder than I think :(
08:19<andythenorth>for example, all locomotives might carry a cargo
08:19<andythenorth>so you ban everything but grain for player 1
08:19<andythenorth>and player 1 has no locomotives :P
08:19<Snail>pikka: yes, but, if we restrict some in-game companies to just a few historical liveries, each in-game player would need to have access to just certain liveries. I don't know if that's possible as things are now
08:20<Pikka>Alberth, when to draw the buy menu? on opening or on a vehicle becoming available or disappearing, as now.
08:20<andythenorth>mark dirty, redraw
08:20<andythenorth>how often does cb fire?
08:21<andythenorth>256 ticks?
08:21<andythenorth>monthly?
08:21<andythenorth>daily?
08:21<@Alberth>Pikka: so eg buying a new engine in the spring only is not possible, eg?
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: there is already enough dynamics for "redrawing the menu"... it will be exactly like existing mechanics of adding/removing vehicles from the list
08:21<Pinkbeast>"disconcerting" shurely
08:22<@Alberth>(fine with me, but that kind of uncertainties make newgrf very complicated to handle
08:22<Pikka>I was going to continue... :P
08:22<andythenorth>distractionals :P
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: "complicated to handle" is certainly the GRF author's problem to explain it correctly
08:23<Pikka>that yes, it would need updating any time a vehicle changed its callback result. I don't know how difficult that would be because I don't know the details of how OpenTTD is coded.
08:23<andythenorth>well the vehicle only changes result when cb runs :)
08:23<Pikka>yes
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>i think the callback should be called in regular intervals (once a month)
08:23<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: no, it's an openttd interfacing problem, as the program must handle all possibilities
08:23<andythenorth>needs a news message :P
08:23<Pikka>well, I suppose then it depends what vars you want to be available in the callback
08:24<andythenorth>all of them | fewer
08:24<andythenorth>do we trust newgrf authors to not do batshit crazy stuff with 'all vars' available?
08:24<Pikka>the var I suggested in the feature request, to count vehicles, would mean it happened every time anyone bought or sold a vehicle
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: no it's not a problem, because if you hook the callback into the function that currently updates the availability, no further flexibility is needed at all
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>all the infrastructure is already there
08:25<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: but you don't want to call it unless absolotely necessary
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: why?
08:25<@Alberth>newgrf handling is one of the slowest things in the program
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>for a once-per-month check?
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>ok, once-per-month-per-vehicle
08:26<andythenorth>ugh, imagine a newgrf that chains through the vars of 64 other vehicles before returning a result :P
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>or possibly twice (one in a "prototype mode" and one in a "available mode"
08:27<andythenorth>do it same as industry produce
08:27<andythenorth>8x month
08:27<andythenorth>but meh, too fine-grained
08:31*Pikka would be happy with the callback running when the list is opened, when a vehicle is introduced or expires, and when the player builds or sells a vehicle. that would do me.
08:33<Pikka>when /any/ player's vehicle count changes would be a bonus.:)
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i think that's somewhat overkill.
08:39<@Alberth>I don't see the use of that, tbh; it assumes you understand how a user plays the game
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08:42<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: you might want a separate "allow purchase" callback that is run when a vehicle is bought
08:44<Pikka>it assumes you understand how a user plays the game?
08:45<Pikka>well, if the vehicle count var was included, you could use it to limit the number of a particular type of vehicle
08:45<@Alberth>and how do you know that's good for the user?
08:46<Pikka>gah
08:46<@Alberth>maybe I like building on mountains, and your X engine is perfect for it
08:46<@Alberth>and now the grf doesn't give me a 4th engine !
08:47<Pikka>now we're back to lakie's "you'll do horrible things to the player" argument
08:47<@Alberth>so what is the purpose then?
08:48<@Alberth>why can a player only have 3 engines of some type, for example?
08:49<Pikka>well, one potential purpose, as I suggested to mb in the thread, would be to incorporate "set selection" into the gameplay
08:50<Pikka>if the game is that one player has blue engines and one player has green engines, one way to determine which player plays blue and which player plays green that's easier to set up - for the player - than a parameter or whatever would be
08:50<Pikka>for one player to simply build an engine of the colour they wanted, and then they get that colour
08:50<Pikka>but like I've said, I wouldn't be /terribly/ disappointed if these vars didn't make it
08:51<@Alberth>so you need vehicle counts of all vehicles of all players in such a case
08:52<Pikka>possibly
08:52<Pikka>I can't really explain why can a player only have 3 engines of some type
08:52<@Alberth>neither can I :)
08:52<Pikka>I can't forsee every possible grf that anyone could wish to make, and don't really want to waste much time trying
08:53<Pikka>I'd be very happy with a callback, with a very limited number of vars available, which updated only on window opening and vehicle introduction and expiry, if that's all the OpenTTD devs feel willing or able to provide
08:58<Pikka>Alberth: I'm writing up a precise spec of what I would like in the forum thread right now, give me 10 minutes.
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>"window opening" is not going to happen
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>alone for multiplayer-issues
09:01<@Alberth>add a link to the issue, so it can be found again
09:01<Pikka>will do
09:07<Pikka>huh, what do you know
09:07<Pikka>there's only one var to check. :P
09:08<Pikka>maybe a few globals too
09:09<@Alberth>I don't know :)
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09:22<@Belugas>hello
09:23<Pikka>hello Belugas
09:23<Pikka>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=59630&p=1065767#p1065767 how's that?
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09:29<Meechmunchie>hi =)
09:30<@Alberth>hi sir B
09:31<@Alberth>Pikka: seems simple enough, although given my lack of knowledge about newgrfs, that does not mean much :)
09:32<@Belugas>hello PierreW and Alberth :)
09:36<@Belugas>PierreW? naaaa... Pikka
09:36<@Belugas>sorry... wrong tab completion...
09:36<Pikka>him too
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09:49<andythenorth>Pikka: no controversy in that post :)
09:49-!-Devroush724 [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
09:49<andythenorth>meanwhile, coxx doesn't want to stab me about FISH / Squid
09:49<andythenorth>at least so far :)
09:49<Pikka>how rare
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09:54<andythenorth>Pikka: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3773/squid.pdf
09:54<andythenorth>fwiw :)
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09:55<Pikka>fancy
09:56<andythenorth>livestock ship
09:56<andythenorth>refittable capacity. 200 (inhumane), 400 (adequate), 600 (bovine luxury)
09:57<andythenorth>oops, wrong way round :)
09:57<Pikka>yes
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10:07<oskari89>Andythenorth: That's quite nice list of ships :)
10:07<oskari89>Be sure to include them all :)
10:12*Belugas searches for a distortion pedal. one that has a warm and not too aggressive sound
10:12<@Belugas>oops... sorry, wrong channel
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10:20<andythenorth>oskari89: that's the 30 limit :)
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10:37<oskari89>Andythenorth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFrDRruznwA That Huanghai tanker reminds of that ship :)
10:39<oskari89>(Liparus)
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10:42<andythenorth>I won't be coding the submarine + explosion feature ;)
10:42<oskari89>:D
10:43<oskari89>Submarine could be nice for passenger transport, your opponents couldn't see it unless it's on loading/unloading on dock :)
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>everybody knows that submarines are for drug smuggling
10:44<oskari89>And you wouldn't see it yourself too, and don't know where it is, unless you would look at the ship list and click there
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11:24<@Alberth>but there is already a submarine in the game
11:25<andythenorth>and an explosion
11:25<andythenorth>ho ho
11:25<andythenorth>I just worked out that I can code NewDisasters specific to industries
11:25<andythenorth>no newgrf spec change needed
11:25<andythenorth>did someone do that in an industry grf already?
11:25<andythenorth>plague of locusts, and crap like that?
11:27<andythenorth>also
11:28<andythenorth>'your industry closed for 3 months due to statistics made up on the spot'
11:28<NGC3982>Evening
11:28<@Alberth>it should be called BOOM, but that does not contain a D :(
11:28<@Alberth>evenink
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11:29<@Alberth>a thunderbird fly-by :)
11:30<andythenorth>I miss what's so hard about p*kka's cb proposal :P
11:30<andythenorth>conceptually, not the implementation :P
11:30<andythenorth>the aim is in MP, to provide a different set of vehicles to each player
11:30<andythenorth>easy right?
11:31<@Alberth>I mostly fail to see the need for newgrf for such a thing
11:32<@Alberth>ie, you're hard-coding in the set that your set may only be used by one player, instead of letting a higher level decide that, so the vehicles themselves are more generally usable.
11:33<@Alberth>"ie every player can use 2 countries" or whatever
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11:33<@Alberth>he's back!
11:33<@Alberth>Tvel: we've reserved a little parking space to the right that
11:33<@Alberth>*there
11:34<Tvel>Uh?
11:35<@Alberth>http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/link/1360603133#1360603133 you flew over one time earlier :)
11:36*Alberth goes hunting some food
11:36<Tvel>Oh yeah, Windows crashed really strange.
11:38<Tvel>In the middle of something important of course
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>everything you do is important...
11:39<oskari89>Windows usually crashes when least expected
11:40<oskari89>And when the most important work is going on, yes
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11:59<andythenorth>Alberth: maybe it shouldn't be a newgrf thing
12:00<andythenorth>but I don't see how openttd would know which vehicles to provide from the grf
12:00<andythenorth>herp
12:00<andythenorth>groups?
12:00<andythenorth>static prop?
12:00<andythenorth>not what pikka wants though
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12:00<andythenorth>'this vehicle is in group xyz'
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12:39<@Alberth>isn't that just another form of the difficulties of communication between GS and NewGRF ?
12:40<andythenorth>yes absolutely
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13:08<@Alberth>o/
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13:25<LordAro>\o
13:31<@planetmaker>moin
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13:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24988 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-02-11 18:49:03 UTC)
13:49<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:49<@DorpsGek>greek - 53 changes by Evropi
13:49<@DorpsGek>hebrew - 24 changes by yitzc
13:49<@DorpsGek>hungarian - 1 changes by IPG
13:49<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:49<@DorpsGek>slovak - 10 changes by greem
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13:57<andythenorth>ho ho
13:58<andythenorth>bikeshedding, but new forum topic for Squid, or retitle FISH topic?
13:59<@planetmaker>squid = fish2? Or what?
13:59<@planetmaker>and... why?
14:02<andythenorth>why change the direction of the set, or why arse about changing the name of a well known newgrf? :)
14:04<@Alberth>call it hsif :)
14:05<andythenorth>pronounceable :P
14:07-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E72C.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
14:07<@planetmaker>well... I know what made you use the big wood cutter on your sets... not sure I completely agree with the reasons, but not my decision
14:08<@planetmaker>thus renaming depends on whether you consider it to fill the same NewGRF nieche or rather not
14:08<@Alberth>srif is worse to pronounce :p
14:09<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the difference is: P1kka makes new sets (or so I understand) and designing them from scratch. Thus cutting away vehicles doesn't ... cut it ;-)
14:09<@Alberth>andythenorth: new topic iff you won't change a bit in fish from now until forever, imho
14:09<@planetmaker>yes ^
14:10<andythenorth>I guess the reason I consider leaving FISH separate is that someone else might pick it up
14:10<Prof_Frink>Super happy integrated transport set.
14:11<andythenorth>you should do one for GIGGLES too
14:11<andythenorth>they could go together
14:11<@planetmaker>giggles?
14:11<@Alberth>FISH would be more findable at the forum when you make a new topic
14:11<andythenorth>yeah
14:11<@planetmaker>yes, if you do a re-disgin, give the baby a new name
14:11<@planetmaker>*design
14:11<andythenorth>I kind of worry about 'where did FISH go'
14:12<andythenorth>just renaming FISH is kind of silly imho
14:12<@planetmaker>quite
14:12<@Alberth>it didn't go anywhere, it's still there, isn't it?
14:12<andythenorth>yes
14:13<andythenorth>I'm also going to *not* make the new incompatible
14:13<andythenorth>and I'm going to rename all ships to reduce confusion
14:13<andythenorth>so they could be used together
14:13<@planetmaker>if you want to make NewGRFs in the onion shape: start new ones. completely new ones
14:13<andythenorth>well
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14:14<andythenorth>I would, but drawing ships is so painful
14:14<@planetmaker>No-one said you can't re-use some graphics ;-)
14:14<andythenorth>oh well
14:14<andythenorth>so squid - started with clean sheet of paper
14:14<andythenorth>some of the graphics and stats are same / similar
14:14<andythenorth>some are not
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14:17<andythenorth>bearing in mind also that Squid is a rethink of FISH 2
14:17<andythenorth>which was quite different to FISH, and quite...poorly designed
14:19<@Alberth>so it's actually fish 3 :)
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14:21<Wolf01>snowy hello
14:21<Supercheese>Salvete
14:21<@planetmaker>hi Supercheese
14:22<supermop>hi
14:22<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
14:22<andythenorth>Alberth: only if Toy Story is really Toy Story 2 :P
14:22<@Alberth>it's snowing here too, but very slowly, you can count the snow flakes
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14:25<@Terkhen>hello
14:26<@Alberth>hello Terkhen
14:30<__ln__>i just watched Inglourious Basterds... it's mostly in german and french, less than half of it in english. did they dub it for the US or UK?
14:31<@planetmaker>It snowed somewhat all weekend. Rather less than more. But enough to make driving somewhat painful on Saturday. But got better the more we got away from home... though near Vienna it snowed quite a bit, too
14:34<__ln__>and now for some chemistry: http://imgur.com/gallery/nSRjXfR
14:36<Markk>__ln__: :D
14:36<Markk>Nomnomnom
14:37<@planetmaker>outch, __ln__ :-)
14:41<Supercheese>That is some expensive cereal
14:42*andythenorth pub
14:42<andythenorth>is it Calamari Time?
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15:14<Supercheese>Push/pull trians eh
15:14<Supercheese>trains*
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15:42<fjb_mobile>Moin.
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17:35<Eddi|zuHause>[11.02.2013 20:08] <Alberth> srif is worse to pronounce :p <-- actually i find it easier :)
17:36-!-Bad_Brett [~bad@78-69-118-27-no42.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd
17:36<NGC3982>id law to pruneunse stoofs.
17:37<Bad_Brett>are there any childsprite experts here?
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: english only! :p
17:38<NGC3982>hey u lol
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17:39<Wolf01>'night
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17:40<andythenorth>Squid, Salt and Chili
17:40<NGC3982>That does not sound like your average recipe, no.
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>let me know when you arrived at Mett
17:41<andythenorth>^^ not a newgrf :P
17:41<andythenorth>ate it
17:41<andythenorth>very very good
17:41<Supercheese>Bad_Brett: childsprites are annoying. Workable, but annoying
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>typically doesn't include horse meat either :p
17:42<Supercheese>Well, sprite alignment in general
17:42*andythenorth -> bed
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17:42<Eddi|zuHause>*miau*
17:42<Bad_Brett>are you talking about rigor mortis stew? http://youtu.be/iUe_T6Z8iqA
17:44<Bad_Brett>Supercheese: the x-offsets are working but the y-offsets are messed up. i set the y-offset to 0 for all sprites but i still couldn't find a pattern
17:45<Supercheese>Yeah, I found the same problem when doing my object set
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17:45<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: if you run over a deer and don't report it, it's a crime over here
17:46<Supercheese>You can kind of cheat by adjusting the actual spriteset offsets rather than the spritelayout offsets
17:46<Supercheese>since spriteset offsets are much saner
17:46<Bad_Brett>Yeah, but we live in Europe :)
17:46-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>especially if you take it home...
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17:48<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: I though it was a crime not to report if you hit a (larger) animal with your car
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i said
17:49<Bad_Brett>i haven't even set the spritelayout offsets...
17:49<NGC3982>Mew mew mew meuew.
17:49-!-Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-10-125.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
17:49<Zuu>Ah, I missed the "don't"' :-)
17:49<NGC3982>Cat in a Mac, Opus I by NGC3982.
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>Cam in iMac is a palindrome
17:50<NGC3982>Cum in iMuc?
17:51<Bad_Brett>most apple fans do that every day
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>i'm really glad i don't know (of) any such people :p
17:51*NGC3982 breaks into the business as a classical composer.
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18:27<Bad_Brett>ok can anyone explain this to me? http://www.badbrett.se/childsprites.png
18:28<Bad_Brett>the very same childsprite has the same offsets on the two houses
18:29<Bad_Brett>it surely can't be the distance from the top-left corner of the parent
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18:36<Eddi|zuHause>that is far outside my area of expertise, sorry
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18:40<Bad_Brett>oh well... i guess i'll search the forums
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18:46<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably a better place to ask your question than trying to find someone to speak to here at this hour
18:51<Bad_Brett>hehe
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18:51<Bad_Brett>but supercheese has saves me a couple of times
18:51<Bad_Brett>*saved
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19:10<@Terkhen>good night
19:14<Bad_Brett>good night Terkhen
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19:34<Superuser>some tooltips are truly disastrous
19:34<Superuser>STR_ORDERS_GO_TO_TOOLTIP
19:34<Superuser>"{BLACK}Insert a new order before the highlighted order, or add to end of list. Ctrl makes station orders 'full load any cargo', waypoint orders 'non-stop' and depot orders 'service'. 'Share orders' or Ctrl lets this vehicle share orders with the selected vehicle. Clicking a vehicle copies the orders from that vehicle. A depot order disables automatic servicing of the vehicle"
19:34<Superuser>IT IS HUGE
19:34<Superuser>I'm okay with translating it, but gee.
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23:47<@peter1138>essays 'r' us
23:54<Pikka>aren't they
23:55<Pikka>this F unit is looking moderately nice
23:56<Pikka>the diagonal looked extremely nice, but then I realised I'd neglected to shorten it
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 12 00:00:29 2013