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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-13

---Logopened Wed Feb 13 00:00:46 2013
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02:13<@peter1138>pff
02:23<Pikka>.pdf
02:25-!-Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
02:25<@planetmaker>png?
02:26<Pikka>.pcx
02:26*Pikka does it oldeschooles
02:27<@peter1138>.cgm?
02:28<Pikka>filthy swine
02:30<Pikka>ho ho
02:31<Pikka>I knew as soon as I saw oztrans's "testing" grf on bananas that some drama was afoot.
02:31<Supercheese>decidedly
02:31<Supercheese>Simuscape is 110% drama
02:31<@peter1138>hmm?
02:31<Pikka>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=32119&start=180
02:32<Pikka>he's uploading non-grfs to bananas which say "come and get my grfs at simuscape" in the description
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02:35<@planetmaker>when is that guy no drama?
02:35<Supercheese>I say permaban him and be done with it
02:36<Supercheese>but of course that may come off as heavy handed
02:36<@planetmaker>not at all, if you want my opinion
02:37<@peter1138>if (*name == '!') skip();
02:37<@peter1138>the new sorting is awkward for numbered grfs :(
02:38<@planetmaker>we have that already, kind of, peter1138. And numbering is better done trailing
02:38<@peter1138>i refer to 2cc set
02:38<@peter1138>not version numbering
02:38<@planetmaker>hm :_)
02:39<Supercheese>Oh damn, can't edit my post at Simuscape
02:39<@peter1138>8/32bpp trains too
02:39<@peter1138>Supercheese, lolol
02:39<@peter1138>Supercheese, after the furore that oztrans himself caused on tt-forums, that's funny
02:39<@planetmaker>hypocrite
02:40<Supercheese>"You cannot edit your posts in this forum"
02:41<Supercheese>Sigh, it's a shame I really enjoy the Canadian/North American grfs, else I would just quit Simuscape entirely and never look back
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02:45<Pikka>of course, it won't even work
02:45<Pikka>people who care about his work will check simuscape for updates anyway
02:46<Pikka>babbies who download everything blindly will just download the dummy grf and not even notice that it doesn't do anything
02:46<Pikka>and no-one else cares
02:46<Supercheese>That is a fairly accurate summary
02:46-!-Twofish [~Twofish@0001308f.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
02:47<Supercheese>hahaha, there's only one entry for Simuscape at bugmenot: http://www.bugmenot.com/view/simuscape.net
02:47<Supercheese>but check the comment :>
02:49<Pikka><peter1138> 8/32bpp trains too <-- 10CC also D;
02:50<@peter1138>i was thinking that, but it's not on bananas yet so i forgot when it came to listing it
02:50<Pikka>:)
02:50<Supercheese>Rename it to "Ten Cee Cee"
02:51<@peter1138>hmm, who wrote the build framework that chips uses?
02:51<Ammler>yexo
02:51<Supercheese>Or 1e-5 m³
02:52<Ammler>and pm
02:52<__ln__>good fortnightmorning
02:52<@peter1138>cos it includes license information, but no copyright information
02:52<@peter1138>which is a little odd
02:52<@peter1138>anyway, as a tool, its licence doesn't apply to my produced work, right?
02:54<Ammler>you never give up your own rights, if you participate to a gpl project, do you
02:54<@peter1138>?
02:54<Supercheese>Oh good lord, screw this algorithm, took me ten minutes to figure out I was supposed to be iterating backwards and not forwards
02:54<Supercheese>why couldn't it say that up front?
02:55<Ammler>you can still do whatever you like with your own work, the license does just matter for people using your work from chips
02:55<Pikka>that's right, Ammler
02:56<Pikka>unless you've given someone an exclusive licence you can always do whatever you like with your own work
02:57<Pikka>(where "your own work" means "work you own the copyright to", not necessarily "what you've worked on")
02:57<__ln__>Ammler: well... GNU projects often require reassigning your copyright to the FSF.
02:57<@peter1138>Ammler, none of it is my work
02:57-!-DDR_ [~chatzilla@d108-180-68-236.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
02:57<Ammler>"..doesn't apply to my produced work"
02:58<@peter1138>Ammler, oh you refer to my chips fixes...
02:58<@peter1138>no, i'm talking about something from scratch that uses the the Makefiles
02:58<@peter1138>the the the
02:58<Ammler>well, the makefile framework is not seen as tool as it is part of the source
02:58<Ammler>so if you use it you need to use the same license
02:59<Ammler>or ask the author for permission to relicense
02:59<Ammler>(might not be an issue either)
02:59<@planetmaker>the makefile framework would need to be applied to each NewGRF individually and is usually part of its source... just like OpenTTD's makefile
02:59<@peter1138>right, good that i checked then :p
03:00<@peter1138>hmm
03:00<@peter1138>i wonder about the waf license
03:00<@planetmaker>you need a special license? :D
03:03<@peter1138>no
03:03<@peter1138>not really
03:03<@peter1138>i should code it all first
03:03<Ammler>__ln__: yes that you do but you can still "sell" your part with another license
03:03<@planetmaker>honestly, I've been thinking of licensing it as CC-BY. But... meh. I can do that on an individual basis except some additional scripts
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03:04<@planetmaker>Ammler, not sure you can do that, if you gave away your copyright
03:04<Ammler>why should you give away your copyrights?
03:04<@peter1138>planetmaker, as i'm fed up with licensing bullshit in our little clique, i'd've gone with BSD or something
03:04<__ln__>Ammler: not really, if you have assigned the copyright to someone else. (note that assigning copyright to someone else is not required with GPL in general)
03:05<@planetmaker>might be better, yes, peter1138. Especially for a Makefile framework
03:05<DDR_>I've got some stuff dual-licenced. It can work.
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03:05<@planetmaker>I might actually change that... couldn't be arsed so far, though
03:05<@planetmaker>or the wtf-license
03:05<DDR_>Bless the wtfpl
03:06<@peter1138>i mean for stuff i produced. if i ever did.
03:06<DDR_>It's a wonderfully simple licence. :)
03:06<Pikka>I've avoided any kind of makefile so far
03:06<Ammler>imo, gpl is fine, it kinda forces people to use also gpl
03:06<@planetmaker>batch files, Pikka ?
03:06<Pikka>but I have to say, doing industries... yuck, I see the attraction of not having one wall o' code :)
03:06<__ln__>Ammler: because some projects -- e.g. the GNU project -- wants to avoid the trouble of having a thousand copyright holders, whose permission is required for any licensing changes or whatever. and because that way the FSF could theoretically defend its (formerly your) copyright in court.
03:07<@peter1138>DDR_, not too keen on that
03:07<DDR_>I also like the wtfpl(beer) licence. It's like the wtfpl licence, except that it states that if you found my stuff useful and you're in the area you should consider buying me a beer.
03:07<@planetmaker>^^
03:07<@peter1138>Ammler, that's the bit i don't want to do :)
03:08<Ammler>peter1138: publish the source?
03:09<Ammler>as said, pm might make a exception for you, but IMO, it is fine the publishd framework is gpl
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03:10<Supercheese>Ahh, commented out the checks for date restrictions on objects & stations, now I can build them whenever
03:11<@peter1138>Ammler, you can't really make an exception to a more-open license for one person
03:11<@planetmaker>I can. But sure enough it's then kinda pointless to keep the more restrictive one ;-)
03:12<@peter1138>quite
03:12<@planetmaker>But if it needs a makefile for one project, it can be cut down quite severely. It's rather versatile right now
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03:12<Ammler>well, "more-open" is also pov issue
03:13<@planetmaker>Ammler, less restrictions is surely more open :-) Also open to the permission to close it completely :-)
03:14<Ammler>hehe, so basically you consider closing the source as more open :-)
03:14<@planetmaker>Ammler, no. But giving permission for another person to use it in closed-source is definitely more freedom (for that person) than forcing that person to be open-source
03:15<Ammler>as said, I would not call that more open
03:17<@planetmaker>actually the only restriction which I want on my makefile is "you need to allow people to make modifications or derivatives of your NewGRF if you use this makefile framework"
03:18<Ammler>where gpl is perfect for
03:18<@planetmaker>thus probably CC-SA
03:19<@planetmaker>without -BY -NC and -ND
03:19<Ammler>you know someone who would have used your framwork but didn't because of the license?
03:19<@planetmaker>not exactly. But then, it's still not 100% easy to use. Needs a linux-like environment... and configuration
03:20<@planetmaker>there's no setup script (yet)
03:20<Supercheese>Gotta love some .grf licenses: "Modifications to this graphics file are not permitted, nor is content extraction, without the explicit permission of the author."
03:20<@planetmaker>and it needs a version which deals with pure NML. without the fancy gcc / gimp / ... overhead
03:21<Supercheese>grfcodec -d -- whoops, violated license
03:21<@planetmaker>yup
03:21<@planetmaker>that's usual for commercial bullshit
03:22<Supercheese>I think I violated the license even before I loaded it in-game :S
03:22<Supercheese>anyway, time to sleep
03:22<@planetmaker>sleep well :-)
03:22<@peter1138>content extraction eh?
03:22<Supercheese>valete omnes
03:22<@planetmaker>you've the license for any sleep type you want, though ;-) without requiring anyone's permission
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03:23<@peter1138>does the game opening it count as content extraction?
03:23<@planetmaker>haha :-)
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03:36<@peter1138>/win 9
03:36<@peter1138>werhgewrhgiehg
03:36<__ln__>english only
03:37<@planetmaker>time to change a password? :-)
03:37<@peter1138>no
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04:04<@peter1138>"Is there any chance of making a binary?"
04:04<@peter1138>is it wrong to reply with "Yes, apply the patch and compile" ?
04:06<@planetmaker>technically correct. socially it would count as trolling
04:07<Pikka>you may be accused of being unhelpful, peter1138
04:07<@planetmaker>practically that might even be the right answer despite ^
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04:31<andythenorth>bonsoir
04:31<@planetmaker>bon jour
04:33<Pikka>hallo mr andrew dans le nord
04:33<Eddi|zuHause><Ammler> well, the makefile framework is not seen as tool as it is part of the source <-- i don't think this is true, because what matters is what is part of the _binary_ that you distribute
04:34<andythenorth>can we haz not dramaz?
04:35<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, would it be ok to distribute OpenTTD w/o its makefile, config.lib and configure scripts?
04:36<Pikka>that's what I said, andy
04:37<andythenorth>I am +1 to what you said
04:38<andythenorth>I have named all my ships
04:38<andythenorth>fun times
04:38<andythenorth>they all fit a pattern, except one, which is joke no-one will get :(
04:39<Pikka>what is it
04:39*Pikka promises to get it
04:39<andythenorth>Roland Tanker
04:39<andythenorth>has capacity 606 (thousand l)
04:39<andythenorth>used to have 808
04:40<andythenorth>maybe I should give it 303
04:40<Pikka>I probably get it
04:41<andythenorth>it's not actually funny
04:41<andythenorth>at all
04:41<andythenorth>it just amuses me
04:41<Pikka>which is fair enough
04:42<Pikka>your ships, your rules
04:42<andythenorth>maybe I should rename it to fit the pattern
04:43<Pikka>my coal mine just about works :) then I will have one working industry chain
04:43<andythenorth>I think the joke has outlived its life
04:43<Pikka>coal mine -> powerstation
04:43<andythenorth> winner
04:43<Pikka>not much of a chain
04:43<andythenorth>nearly as good as original TTD
04:44<andythenorth>this one's nice http://www.panoramio.com/photo/75139554
04:44<andythenorth>maybe I call it that
04:44<Pikka>star point lighthouse tanker?
04:44<andythenorth>- lighthouse
04:44<Pikka>starpoint?
04:45<Pikka>starp oint
04:46<andythenorth>hah found a better oen
04:46<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pugwash_Lighthouse.jpg
04:47<@peter1138>god damn evolution sucks these days
04:47<@peter1138>(the email client)
04:47<@peter1138>it just crashed
04:47<@peter1138>fair enough
04:47<@peter1138>started it again and it no longer knows about email for this month :S
04:48<andythenorth>mail is over-rated anyway
04:48<@peter1138>yers
04:49<andythenorth>you don't miss much
04:49<andythenorth>I have stopped reading email
04:50<SpComb>as a sysadmin maintaing a mail server, I disagree!
04:50<SpComb>it's highly important
04:50<@peter1138>my colleagues get annoyed when i don't read email
04:51<SpComb>you wouldn't replace a sysadmin with bits in a google cloud, would you :<
04:53<andythenorth>peter1138: if it's important, they'll phone you, no?
04:53<@peter1138>yes
04:54<@peter1138>HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THIS EMAIL IT IS IMPORTANT WE NEED TO GET ON TOP OF THIS THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH
04:54<@peter1138>conversation i just had
04:54<andythenorth>conversation yes
04:54<andythenorth>email is not conversation IT IS SHOUTING
04:54*andythenorth digresses
04:55<andythenorth>I should make some ships
04:55<@peter1138>no, the phone call was shouting :p
04:55<andythenorth>that's ok
04:55<@peter1138>i haven't seen the email
04:55<@peter1138>because it crashed
04:55<andythenorth>phone call shouting is perfectly reasonable behaviour
04:55<@peter1138>and is redownloading everything for feb
04:55<andythenorth>I *should* do some work
04:55<andythenorth>although it is my birthday
04:56<@peter1138>sounds like a day off
04:56<andythenorth>I don't like days off
04:56<@peter1138>weirdo
04:56<andythenorth>had a day off yesterday for the kid's birthday
04:56<andythenorth>was ok I guess
04:56<andythenorth>:)
04:57<andythenorth>Pikka: why do Australians make so many fast catamarans?
04:58<andythenorth>you're excessively enthusiastic about it
04:58<@peter1138>second pot of coffee brewed
05:01<@peter1138>"my milkshake brings all the boys to the yard"
05:01<@peter1138>wtf?
05:02<andythenorth>great song
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05:15<Pikka>andythenorth, because we have a lot of water I suppose? a lot of long thin routes.
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05:16<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: a) openttd binaries ARE distributed without these files, and b) openttd's GPL license states (afair) the source code version must include build scripts etc., but it does not say that these buildscripts must be under the same license
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05:18<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, b) doesn't add up. Or I license every loc under a different license
05:18<@peter1138>who was talking about openttd?
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that honestly depends on how intertwined the two parts are
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: e.g. what if you put the sourcecode of a library that you "link to" into the source repo?
05:20<@planetmaker>"For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable." from the license
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the fact that many projects use the newgrf-makefile independently supports the theory that it's a "tool" that is just "bundled" with the source, so it doesn't have to be the same license
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05:22<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, it doesn't. without it you're loosing essential parts which are needed to build the newgrfs
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you failed to quote the exception where you don't need to include the compiler etc.
05:22<@planetmaker>of course you could organize it differently
05:22<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the compiler is nmlc. But the makefile surely is no compiler but a build script which contains the config to build that particular NewGRF
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so where do you draw the line?
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>if i have "makefile bundled with nmlc", that bundle is surely the compiler
05:24<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the line is where information are added which are specific. The newgrf-makefile framework as-is, does NOT work without adapting it to every single newgrf it is used with
05:25<@planetmaker>a compiler needs no such configuration. The configuration (parameter, call sequence...) that's part of the build scripts. Which such are part of the source.
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: ao the configfile for the makefile is part of the project source, but not the makefile-framework
05:28<@planetmaker>That *might* work. If you could really separate the config file from the rest. Which you can't sensibly do in this case. But it's not practical either as there's no defined interface (yet?)
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but the argument is backwards, you argue with the GPL clause that you have to include the build scripts, but if i release a grf under a separate license which does not make that requirement, i can consider the grf and the makefile separately licensed bundles
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: from a closed-source bundle i can "link to" an open source bundle, just not the other way around
05:32<andythenorth>what was the question?
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: whether using the makefile forces your project to GPL
05:33<andythenorth>there's almost no case law
05:33<andythenorth>so definitive answer hard
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05:33<Eddi|zuHause>which is my point, the initial answer was a "definitive yes", and i find that disputable
05:33<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: CETS python build - clearly e
05:34<andythenorth>yes
05:34<andythenorth>something that uses makefile for convenience
05:34<andythenorth>probably
05:34<andythenorth>but not clear cut
05:35<andythenorth>the makefile framework is a separate project
05:35<andythenorth>the grf is the output from it
05:35<andythenorth>GPL does not attach to output
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>we discussed the CETS build script previously, the answer there was "yes, because significant parts of the script end up in the final grf"
05:36<andythenorth>is the makefile part of the program, or is it a generic tool, from which the program is output?
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's similar to glibc ends up in gcc-compiled programs, so they had to attach a special exception clause for that
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is the question i posed
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05:40<andythenorth>if it's a generic tool, it doesn't matter if it's GPL or not
05:40<andythenorth>except in the specific question of distribution
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05:55<@peter1138>and the irony is i wanted to avoid license bullshit
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05:56<Eddi|zuHause>ooooh, he's being so cute when he is naive :)
05:56<@peter1138>:P
05:57<@peter1138>wasn't there some kerfuffle about the newgrf documentation at some point?
06:00<andythenorth>herfuffle
06:00<andythenorth>herfuffle gets no grfs made :P
06:01<@peter1138>herfuffle? what?
06:02<Markk>OpenTTD IRL: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/CTA_loop_junction.jpg
06:02<@peter1138>heh
06:02<@peter1138>now find a 4-way clover-leaf :S
06:03<@peter1138>weird ramp on the carpark
06:04<@peter1138>i can't imagine it was taller but partially removed
06:04<Pikka>squeeze a couple more parking spots in on top of the ramp, or something?
06:04<@peter1138>possibly
06:05<andythenorth>jump innit
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06:05<SpComb>GTA
06:05<@peter1138>heh
06:05<Pikka>modular design somehow
06:05<@peter1138>carmageddon!
06:05<andythenorth>stops the snow getting to the ramp below
06:05<andythenorth>snow here
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06:16<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> wasn't there some kerfuffle about the newgrf documentation at some point? <-- yes, it ended up with MB hosting his own private copy, which i'm not sure he keeps in sync with the tt-wiki version
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: i'm pretty sure that picture was shown here before
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06:23<@peter1138>you know what "bugs" me about questionable content?
06:23<@peter1138>he doesn't/can't draw aging
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06:24<andythenorth>?
06:24<andythenorth>url?
06:25<andythenorth>or just the latest one?
06:25<@peter1138>any with parental-units
06:25<andythenorth>yeah, don't look old enough
06:25<andythenorth>yeah, the dad character looks like me
06:26<andythenorth>only my kids are knee-high
06:27<andythenorth>and I'm not marrying a boy-toy
06:28<@peter1138>dunno who old he is as there's no age :p
06:29<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure of that as well.
06:29<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: I've seen that before and could've easily posted it before as well. :D
06:29<@peter1138>hmm, and is that a girls-with-slingshots reference today?
06:29<@peter1138>yesterday i mean
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06:34<Pinkbeast>Marten's mother used to have lines around her mouth, etc; she's got younger if anything
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06:47<Eddi|zuHause>i got it! we should all nominate OzTrans to the Simuscape Hall of Fame
06:47<andythenorth>TT Hall of Fame
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>nobody has ever caused more drama to the TT community
06:47<@peter1138>:-)
06:47<@planetmaker>Hell of Fame
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>and we all like drama so much
06:48<@peter1138>seems everyone's ignored it so far
06:49<@planetmaker>yes, wrong forum section ;-)
06:49<andythenorth>herp, does anyone give a fuck if it's advertising or not?
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>it got more (negative) attention on the german forum
06:49<andythenorth>the thing that I find sad is that it breaks bananas for end user
06:49<andythenorth>'it' = zero-content grfs
06:49<@planetmaker>yes. And that imho makes it require action
06:49<@peter1138>we're not talking about that :p
06:49<@planetmaker>:-)
06:49<andythenorth>I am now talking abotu that again
06:50<andythenorth>the deal with bananas is that you click 'get content' and you get content
06:50<andythenorth>in game
06:50<andythenorth>no faff
06:50<andythenorth>no need to open a browser
06:50<andythenorth>or learn wtf on your filesystem ottd stores grfs
06:50<andythenorth>or how to rescan
06:50<SpComb>or learn wtf your filesystem is
06:50<andythenorth>or any other crap that users should never have to see, do or think about
06:50-!-goodger [~ben@host86-166-165-94.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: goodger]
06:50<@planetmaker>you summarized it well, andythenorth
06:51<@planetmaker>especially as such thing usually won't work, on say, Android or so. While OpenTTD content download does
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>i agree, that this GRF should be removed on "spam/advertising" grounds
06:51<@planetmaker>(or so I believe)
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06:52<@peter1138>just kick up a load of fuss
06:53<@peter1138>or ignore it
06:53<@peter1138>i dunno
06:53<@peter1138>ignoring seems a good option
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>if they want to advertise, they should pay for it...
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>"normal" bananas users pay for it with the right to publish their contents
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>since they don't publish any content, they should pay through other means
06:56<andythenorth>oops
06:57<andythenorth>I forgot to ignore it
06:58<@peter1138>illy atn
06:58<@peter1138>illy?
06:58<@peter1138>silly
06:59<andythenorth>illy
06:59<andythenorth>make coffee
06:59<andythenorth>I don't
06:59<@peter1138>i have
06:59<andythenorth>I drink coffee
06:59<@peter1138>drinking it now
06:59<andythenorth>rotgut
07:00<andythenorth>new ship names http://213.133.67.181:8192/zz_dangerous_things/tt_foundry/sets/FISH/list_all_vehicles
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>english only!!
07:00<andythenorth>lots beginning with F it seems
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>the tracking table layout has lots of similarity to my tracking table! i demand copyright! :p
07:02<andythenorth>I'll pay royaltie
07:02<andythenorth>I'm quite generous
07:03<andythenorth>30% of everything I earn from this grf
07:03<goodger>that seems like a reasonable settlement
07:09<Pikka>andythenorth, argue argue argue :}
07:09<andythenorth>silly me
07:09<andythenorth>dunno wtf I did that
07:09<andythenorth>I should deletey
07:09*andythenorth is making ships
07:09<andythenorth>and having a happy birthday
07:10<Pikka>happy birthday!
07:10<goodger>^
07:10<@peter1138>Pikka, Simutrans-bashing :D
07:10<Pikka>yeah
07:11<Pikka>that's not what I meant, is it?
07:11<@peter1138>no
07:11<andythenorth>where is the roll-eyes icon?
07:11<andythenorth>:)
07:11<Pikka>I fix
07:11<andythenorth>Pikka: edity edit
07:11<Pikka>too late!
07:11<welshdragon>:rolleyes:
07:11<Pikka>simuscape, simutrans
07:11<Pikka>same thing!
07:12<andythenorth>pikka pokka
07:13<Pikka>andy wandy
07:13<andythenorth>so anyway
07:13<andythenorth>is Tyloegrund a nice name for a freighter?
07:14*andythenorth is unconvinced
07:14<andythenorth>naming of parts
07:14<Pikka>I dunno
07:14<Pikka>sounds a bit foreign :D
07:14<Pikka>but no umlauts
07:14<andythenorth>dalsfjord ?
07:15<andythenorth>Forsnes
07:15<Pikka>oh
07:15<Pikka>Tylögrund
07:16<Pikka>mit der umlaut, better
07:16<andythenorth>umlaut hurt my brain
07:16<andythenorth>and my unicode handling :P
07:16<andythenorth>Sandholmen Freighter
07:16<@peter1138>so naive
07:16<@peter1138>naïve even
07:16<@peter1138>i'm sure i typed that :S
07:17<__ln__>yes, need to be more coöperative
07:17<@peter1138>café?
07:17<@peter1138>façade?
07:17<@planetmaker>à la carte
07:18<__ln__>nazgûl
07:18<goodger>coöperative is an abomination invented by the new yorker to punish their typesetters
07:18<@planetmaker>nazgûl à la carte? sounds... devious ;-)
07:19<andythenorth>Flatholmen Freighter?
07:19<@peter1138>Charlotte Brontë
07:20<@peter1138>Zoë
07:20<@peter1138>yeah, we don't have accents
07:20<andythenorth>Hesnesbregen Freighter :)
07:20<__ln__>btw, why is there a character called Zoë in almost all recent american tv series?
07:20<andythenorth>Hesnesbregen is a nice sound, in my head
07:21<@peter1138>jalapeño?
07:21<Pikka>get out
07:22<@peter1138>gët õūt
07:22<andythenorth>Færder
07:22<andythenorth>do we have the æ char in game?
07:22<Pikka>ying tong yiddle I po
07:22<__ln__>andythenorth: it's part of latin-1
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>how can you serve a nazgul if you can't kill it?
07:24<Pikka>__ln__, I don't think there is
07:24<Pikka>a character named zoe in almost all recent american tv series
07:24<andythenorth>I don't see one in Dora the Explorer
07:24<Pikka>"almost all" is quite a lot.
07:25<Pikka>and almost certainly includes dora the explorer :)
07:25<__ln__>Pikka: Firefly, House of Cards, others.
07:26<Pikka>that's two
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>"almost all" means "the measure of the set of exceptions is zero"
07:26<Pikka>one of which isn't terribly recent ;)
07:26<@peter1138>"almost all" means "almost all that __ln__ watches"
07:27<Pikka>also americans remaking house of cards, sounds terrible
07:27<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> do we have the æ char in game? <-- you can provide missing glyphs in your grf
07:29<V453000>peter1138: how far did the idea with a spec for custom junctions @railtypes get?
07:29<V453000>also morning
07:29<@peter1138>spec?
07:29<@peter1138>it was coded
07:29<@peter1138>there's a patch
07:30<V453000>is it usable yet?
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07:30<@peter1138>if you apply the patch, probably. i never tested it cos there's no grf for it
07:31<V453000>I intend to make a grf for it
07:31<@peter1138>ok
07:36<andythenorth>see, MB is right again
07:36<andythenorth>he usually is, except when he's wrong
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>in which context now?
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>there are like 5 different discussions here in parallel
07:36<Pikka>stranger things have happened
07:36<andythenorth>bananas discussion
07:37<@peter1138>let's add 3d models to openttd
07:37<andythenorth>I like MB, he has character :)
07:37*__ln__ is right even when he's wrong
07:37<andythenorth>peter1138: ok
07:37<andythenorth>saves drawing
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07:37<@peter1138>yes
07:37<@peter1138>or maybe voxels
07:37<@peter1138>or whatever that word was
07:37<@peter1138>cubicles
07:39<V453000>I dont even understand how can any software exist without voxels
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes. cubicles it was :p
07:40<andythenorth>openplans
07:40<@planetmaker>it breaks for end users MUCH less, if they use the proper grfID for their "advertizement" iGRFs. If properly done, end users won't see them anymore once they have the "full" grf
07:41<@planetmaker>So, as done now, it's quite bad
07:41<@planetmaker>but as they "just decide" so we may "just decide". Discussion is nothing anyone ever tried
07:42<@planetmaker>nor seems interested in. So whatever. Just drama is the interest
07:42<Pikka>I don't see what's wrong with in planetmaker
07:42<Pikka>it's just a grf like any other
07:42<andythenorth>I wouldn't bother with 'us' and 'them' :)
07:42<andythenorth>it's not very useful, in the long run
07:42<@planetmaker>Pikka, it spams the NewGRF list of users with double and tripple entries
07:42<andythenorth>there are some silly users who have made some silly grfs
07:42<andythenorth>that much is not new
07:42<@planetmaker>If they use the right grfID, then the downloaded full NewGRF will simply be shown instead of the igrf
07:42<Pikka>I don't think that bothers the users who just download and install everything
07:42<@planetmaker>thus it's considered a valid "update" to the bananas entry
07:43<@planetmaker>I'm not concerned about those
07:43<Pikka>well which "newgrf list" are you concerned about, then?
07:44<@planetmaker>Pikka, ingame. For the users which actually get the NewGRFs
07:45<@planetmaker>If you got a newer version, then bananas won't give you its version either. IIRC
07:45<andythenorth>I would file it under 'people do silly things'
07:46<andythenorth>unless it's actually breaking savegames
07:46<Pikka>so would I
07:46<andythenorth>"something must be done" <- except not really
07:47<@planetmaker>people complain about spam... to *us*
07:47<andythenorth>by email?
07:47<andythenorth>or publicly?
07:47<andythenorth>or by pm?
07:48<@planetmaker>in the bug tracker... in the forums...
07:48<andythenorth>so close them as invalid
07:48<V453000>it is breaking savegames obviously, as it uses different IDs
07:48<andythenorth>hmm
07:48<andythenorth>failure demand :P
07:48<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_demand
07:49<@peter1138>if they used the real grf's grfid then it would break for people who already have the grf but don't want to upgrade to the latest version
07:50<@planetmaker>peter1138, it wouldn't. savegames go by md5sum.
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07:50<Pikka>eh
07:50<@peter1138>i wouldn't be able to start a new game with it
07:51<@peter1138>because i've gone "upgrade all" which is a fairly common use-case
07:51<@planetmaker>peter1138, OpenTTD by default only shows the newgrf with the highest action14 version for a newgrf. So it's easy
07:51<@peter1138>and thus the latest is the fake grf, not the real grf
07:51<V453000>the real grf would have to be +1 version
07:51<@planetmaker>thus what you describe wouldn't happen
07:51<Eddi|zuHause><V453000> it is breaking savegames obviously, as it uses different IDs <-- yes, so would you go forward and talk to the GRF author to change it?
07:51<V453000>well yeah you would have to make latest the real one
07:51<@peter1138>the real grf doesn't have an action 14 i think
07:52<Pikka>planetmaker, I think part of what oztrans's theory was is that he could use the "informational" grf to tell people when there was a new version of the real grf out
07:52<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: I did actually
07:52<@planetmaker>that's the author's fault clearly
07:52<@peter1138>planetmaker, it's pre-action 14
07:52<V453000>they dont really care
07:52<V453000>OzTrans I did try the same GRFID initially; but found that having different IDs is better and with less hassles. Even if you have both loaded, they don't bite each other.
07:52<Pikka>the old one was, the one on simutransscape isn't
07:52<@planetmaker>that'll be even worse, Pikka ...
07:52<@peter1138>yeah, i have the old one
07:52<Pikka>anyway
07:53<@peter1138>if they used the same grfid, and i'd done "upgrade all" then it would've removed my choice of the working grf
07:53<V453000>ah that way you mean
07:53<Pikka>all the complaints are like those people who ring up to complain about a tv show that they didn't watch, because their newspaper told them it was filth.
07:53<V453000>well there could be same id for version 1.5
07:53<V453000>not for 1.1
07:53<Pikka>no-one's really bothered, people just like complaining
07:54<andythenorth>Pikka: how dare you. I am morally offended.
07:55<V453000>I think the content should be removed and a rule added to ToS, because this thing does absolutely nothing related to bananas purposes - content availability and also availability for saves with old versions
07:55<V453000>this is just spam
07:56<Pikka>V453000: it's content
07:56<V453000>not really
07:56<Pikka>the fact that it's content that doesn't interest you is neither here nor there
07:56<V453000>it purposedly cant be used in the game
07:57<V453000>it does interest me
07:57<andythenorth>:roll:
07:57<andythenorth>don't add anything to ToS
07:57<Pikka>it can be used in the game
07:57<andythenorth>it's just a non-issue
07:57<Pikka>it just doesn't do much interesting
07:57<andythenorth>it's a valid grf, complies with the spec
07:57<Pikka>just like almost every other grf out there ;)
07:58<V453000>spam
07:58<Pikka>well what exactly would you add to the ToS?
07:58<@planetmaker>Pikka, it defies and sabotages the purpose of bananas. Willfully.
07:59<V453000>^
07:59<andythenorth>yes, but so what
07:59<andythenorth>what harm is done?
07:59<Pikka>it defies and sabotages the purpose of bananas
07:59<Pikka>in the same way as a small, slightly over-ripe grape blocks a major arterial road
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>the "harm" is that "we" have to discuss it
07:59<andythenorth>even worse if we have to rewrite ToS
07:59<andythenorth>and have all contributors accept new terms
07:59<Pikka>let's ban grapes
08:00<andythenorth>loads of BS for zero real gain
08:00<@planetmaker><Eddi|zuHause> the "harm" is that "we" have to discuss it <-- that
08:00<V453000>well, you dont need to rewrite ToS if there is a gentleman agreement that this shit doesnt get created :P
08:00<Pikka>add it to the ToS, quick
08:01-!-mode/#openttd [+m] by peter1138
08:01<@peter1138>no you don't have to discuss it
08:01-!-mode/#openttd [-m] by peter1138
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>:p
08:01<V453000>I mean seriously, if someone uses a free service like devzone or bananas, they give something back. For devzone open license, for bananas the content. This is only being abused as advertisement space
08:02<V453000>if they so hate bananas to refuse adding real content, let them hate it
08:02<andythenorth>we should modify the WTFPL
08:02<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>if the ToS already forbids spam, and (some) operators of bananas judge this as spam, then no change of the ToS is needed
08:02<andythenorth>add a second clause. 1) Don't break the law
08:02<V453000>but making such disgusting workarounds like this which dont even technically work well is just wrong to me
08:02<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: :)
08:02<Pikka>what are you going to do about it, V453000?
08:02<Pikka>let it go :)
08:02<V453000>me? I cant do much but I will say my opinion which is what I do
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>MB's argument of "it's a valid NewGRF" does not go very far... SPAM mails are valid e-mails
08:03<V453000>^
08:05<lugo>so what's wrong with treating it like spam which got through the filter (or gentlemens agreement) and just ignore it?
08:06<andythenorth>nothing
08:06<andythenorth>we just can't seem to agree on that
08:07*Pikka can
08:09<Pikka>the alternative is that bananas becomes a moderated service, which I can't see being good for anyone. and even if it did become that, I don't think this file should be removed. :)
08:10<V453000>not like it wasnt moderated when mistress sac demanded removal of her trees
08:10<Pikka>if we're removing content that doesn't work properly or breaks the game, we can start with "OpenTTD Plus" and then move on to NARS2. ;)
08:10<Pikka>copyright infringements are different
08:11<V453000>she put it there herself?
08:11<V453000>also this isnt breaking the game but spamming bananas
08:11<andythenorth>shrug
08:11*Pikka also
08:11<andythenorth>Pikka pops: 2/3 of Squid Ate FISH https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3776/Squid%20Ate%20FISH.png
08:12<andythenorth>I need some people who draw next
08:12<V453000>idk how bananas or nars2 breaks the game either but that is off topic :)
08:12<andythenorth>what are they called? 'Artists' or somethign
08:12<Pikka>2/3 squid can't be wrong
08:12<andythenorth>V453000: draw me some ships?
08:12<andythenorth>Pikka: see what I did? Not loads of ships all same size
08:12<V453000>im actually drawing my own ships andy
08:12<Pikka>I like it
08:12<Pikka>moar sails though
08:13<andythenorth>hmmm
08:13<andythenorth>I'll certainly consider that
08:13<Pikka>psh, you won't
08:13<andythenorth>I considered it
08:13<V453000>behold https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/arsssse.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/arssssse.png
08:14<Pikka>those aren't ships
08:14<V453000>oh they are :D
08:15<Pikka>they're railways disguised as water, but they're not ships
08:15<MNIM>andythenorth: I take it you still need to order ID by intro date?
08:15<V453000>aaand these railways can have ships on them
08:15<V453000>train ships anyway
08:15<andythenorth>MNIM?
08:15<MNIM>in SQUID
08:16<andythenorth>you want order by intro date? Just order that in the menu
08:16<andythenorth>I am ordering IDs by 'it looks pleasing to andythenorth'
08:16<MNIM>silly andy
08:16<V453000>andythenorth: you could actually draw some ships for me
08:16<V453000>now we are talking
08:16<andythenorth>ho ho no
08:17<V453000>how surprising!!
08:17<V453000>:(
08:17*V453000 sad
08:22<andythenorth>has anyone's favourite ship gone missing in that Squid screenie above? o_O
08:24<V453000>did the tt-forums BK discussion just get removed?
08:24<Pikka>I just split it
08:24<Pikka>if planetmaker wants the discussion, he can have it, it's now in general openttd ;}
08:24<V453000>valid name
08:24<@peter1138>no office
08:24<@peter1138>no offence
08:25<@peter1138>but moving it there was silly
08:25<Pikka>it's a silly discussion
08:25<andythenorth>off topic?
08:25<Pikka>and nothing to do with newgrf development
08:25<Pikka>if the openttd moderators want to rename it, lock it, whatever, they should.
08:25<@planetmaker>what, Pikka ?
08:26<@planetmaker>the one in Transport Tycoon? Doesn't belong in OpenTTD
08:26<Pikka>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=64363
08:27<@planetmaker>why did you do that for all the gods and devils out there?
08:27<Pikka>because if I locked it people would whinge at me
08:28<Pikka>instead, I pass the buck :)
08:28<@planetmaker>so... and if I just move it back?
08:28<@planetmaker>really, what's the point Pikka?
08:28<@peter1138>no, not the transport tycoon one
08:28<Pikka>I wanted to split it
08:29<Pikka>and this conversation has nothing to do with newgrf development
08:29<Pikka>if you can think of a better place than general openttd, move it.
08:29<@planetmaker>spam bin
08:29<Pikka>go ahead
08:29<@planetmaker>and it's all about newgrf development
08:29<Pikka>no it's not, it's about what goes on bananas
08:30<@peter1138>technically it's about newgrf releases ;)
08:30<andythenorth>thread tennis
08:30<Pikka>it's an openttd issue, not a newgrf one
08:30*andythenorth goes for lunch
08:30<andythenorth>haz fun
08:30<Pikka>enjoy, andy
08:30<andythenorth>thanks :)
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08:32<@planetmaker>this all sucks big time
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08:34<Pikka>did I break planetmaker? D:
08:35<V453000>well you declare ignoring stuff and then you do weird stuff, not too surprising to me
08:36<@peter1138>Pikka, first 3 posts are not related
08:36<Pikka>well, context or something
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08:37<@peter1138>they're 6 months old
08:37<Pikka>I split from where the conversation stopped being about the newgrf and started being about bananas, I didn't look at the dates
08:38<Pikka>I don't think it matters enough to fix?
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08:38<Pikka>ameecher's link just goes back to the first post of the old thread
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08:45<Eddi|zuHause>http://24.media.tumblr.com/c54c6e761339e4fb356a1b3bca65da49/tumblr_mhdn7nZxmg1qe9g4mo1_r1_500.jpg
08:51<@peter1138>yes
08:58<@peter1138>http://i.imgur.com/6x1al.jpg
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09:04<Eddi|zuHause>that comparison isn't exactly new :)
09:16<Flygon>Yknow you're playing Civilization correctly when there's so many cities
09:16<Flygon>It overflows into Australian names
09:38<Flygon>Annnnd I overflowed the name chart completely
09:40*Pinkbeast plays small maps and abhors any game where I don't know which city is which immediately, so, er...
09:41<Flygon>Ah, I keep track easily enough
09:41<Flygon>Trying out this world map that's over 32767 total squares
09:42<@peter1138>small then
09:42<@peter1138>oh, civ, not ottd
09:43<Flygon>Oh...
09:43<Flygon>Oh no
09:43<kormer>Does anyone here now why I'd get an error "unknown debug level ai=5" when doing openttd.exe -d ai=5?
09:43<Flygon>The AI used the same overflow chart
09:43<Flygon>Now they have cities that share names with mine
09:44<@peter1138>uheheh
09:44<Pinkbeast>I raise an eyebrow whenever Istanbul and Constantinople appear on the same map
09:45<@peter1138>kormer, kormer because "ai" isn't a valid debug thing
09:45<@peter1138>might be script you're looking for, dunno though
09:45<kormer>am I doing it wrong then? I copied from here: http://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Need_To_Know#Logging_and_Debug_Panel
09:46<@peter1138>it's probably out of date
09:47<Flygon>Pinkbeast: Took me a few seconds, hahaha
09:48<kormer>I'm trying to get the ai/gs debug console copied to a file outside of openttd, is there another way of going about that?
09:51<@peter1138>script
09:51<@peter1138>openttd -d script=5
09:52<kormer>thanks
09:52<kormer>I'll try that and make a note in the wiki
09:54<kormer>IT WORKED! Thanks. Multiplayer league tables here we come.
09:55<Flygon>Pinkbeast: On the upside. 7 move Ironclads. These buggers move faster than any ship that could possibly exist in OpenTTD. :B
09:56<@peter1138>pfft
09:56<@peter1138>fast ships smell in ottd
09:56<@peter1138>instant stoppage!
09:56<Flygon>Then use Ironclads.
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09:59<Pinkbeast>I infer you're in crazy-mod land
10:01<@peter1138>V453000, lol @ railships
10:10<V453000>:)
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11:14<andythenorth>fast pax ferry 300 pax / non-bulk cargos: hovercraft or cat?
11:14<andythenorth>there are already a few cats
11:14<andythenorth>only one hovercraft
11:14<andythenorth>hovercraft are super awesome, right?
11:15<V453000>definitely cats
11:15<V453000>nothing else but cats
11:16<andythenorth>because..?
11:17<V453000>because cats
11:17<V453000>meow
11:17<V453000>purr
11:17<V453000>fur
11:17<V453000>and stuff
11:17<andythenorth>silly old V453000
11:18<V453000>no fur? :(
11:18<andythenorth>furry ship
11:18<V453000>YES
11:18<V453000>see, you are getting the idea of awesome
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11:22<V453000>like a furball with eyes
11:22<V453000>unmatched awesomeness
11:23<V453000>http://www.funnycutepics.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/black-cat-furball.jpg
11:27*MNIM chases it like an angry klingon
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11:37<__ln__>http://www.imdb.com/media/rm375761920/tt1707386
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12:06<@Terkhen>hello
12:07<andythenorth>hi hi Terkhen
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12:20<@peter1138>XeryusTC, what does simutrans have to do with anything?
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12:25<V453000>mixing up simutrans and simuscape
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12:48<andythenorth>"Endeavour Rig Supply Fast Catamaran"
12:48<andythenorth>Rig Supply Fast Catamaran is a ship type in Squid
12:48<andythenorth>bit long eh?
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12:48<andythenorth>Utlity Catamaran?
12:48<andythenorth>Catamaran Workboat?
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>as long as the ship sprites? :p
12:50<andythenorth>at least
12:53<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/lGGx7h8.jpg
12:53<NGC3982>Happy pre-valentines day.
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13:22<@Alberth>hi hi
13:23<andythenorth>hi Alberth
13:25<andythenorth>squid https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3794/squid_buy_menu.png
13:25<andythenorth>maybe all good grfs should fit the buy menu into 800x600 screenie o_O
13:25<@peter1138>no
13:26<andythenorth>spoilsport
13:27<andythenorth>where's your sense of arbitrary rule making?
13:27<@peter1138>i play at 640x480
13:28<__ln__>no you don't
13:28<andythenorth>he might
13:28<andythenorth>I used to
13:28<andythenorth>it's much more pleasant
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>how come your pink placeholder ferries are at totally different offsets?
13:28<andythenorth>hysterical raisins
13:28<andythenorth>to do with copying and pasting in the CMS that drives the set config
13:29<andythenorth>640x480 makes the GUI way nicer to use
13:29<andythenorth>zoom is good and all, but the GUI doesn't zoom :P
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>use biggui
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>or downgrade to 0.5-ish and use Ctrl+D :p
13:33<andythenorth>I need to downgrade OS X
13:33<andythenorth>this is the usual no mac dev issue :)
13:33<andythenorth>o_O I could run it in virtual box?
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13:34<Eddi|zuHause>so, who tripped over the cable?
13:34<frosch123>a big plug blocked the only left socket for the coffee machine
13:35<andythenorth>can someone unplug Dave W?
13:35<frosch123>oh yeah, i would also be interested in that
13:36<andythenorth>I find him odd
13:36<andythenorth>what is he useful for?
13:36<andythenorth>his mission seems to be somewhat towards being disliked
13:36<andythenorth>which is odd
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>nominate him for the simuscape hall of fame :)
13:38<andythenorth>this is a good call
13:38<andythenorth>TT hall of fame /s
13:38<andythenorth>after a split, my client is insanely slow to render messages
13:39<andythenorth>is that just me?
13:39<@peter1138>yes
13:39<andythenorth>stupid client
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13:43<@planetmaker>actually Dave W is the first to call the situation by the name ;-)
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24990 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2013-02-13 18:45:20 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>czech - 36 changes by greem
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 24 changes by Evropi
13:45<@DorpsGek>japanese - 45 changes by Aknuth
13:45<@DorpsGek>vietnamese - 37 changes by myquartz
13:46<andythenorth>planetmaker: you think OzTrans is trolling? :)
13:46<andythenorth>or Kamnet?
13:46<andythenorth>it's quite a funny troll if so
13:47<@planetmaker>Oz is definitely trolling
13:47<@planetmaker>for as long as I can remember
13:48<andythenorth>he gets good troll points
13:48<andythenorth>it's quite well crafted and executed if so
13:48<andythenorth>wonder if kamnet is in on the gag
13:48<andythenorth>or is a hapless victim? o_O
13:48<andythenorth>biab
13:48<andythenorth>pub
13:49<@planetmaker>"on the gag"?
13:49<andythenorth>informed participant
13:49<andythenorth>or fall guy
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13:50<Wolf01>hello o/
13:50<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
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13:58<@planetmaker>hello Wolf01
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14:17<@Alberth>is there a list which newgrf string commands may be used for plural and/or gender? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Language_files#String_parameters
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14:40<__ln__>http://blogs.agu.org/landslideblog/2013/02/13/an-unusual-colliery-landslide-yesterday-hatfield-stainforth-in-northern-england/
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15:01<andythenorth>Rubidium: nice reply, but I don't get the issue :) !!BK Tunnels grf works exactly as intended. Players can install it no problem.
15:05<Rubidium>intended by who?
15:06<andythenorth>well
15:06<Rubidium>imagine someone draws some very nice ships, and then puts a NewGRF with !!<name of set> on bananas which only contains some text
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15:06<andythenorth>or just tell OzTrans he's being a dick and hide the content
15:06<andythenorth>one or the other
15:07<andythenorth>it's not like arguments with OzTrans are a new thing
15:07<Rubidium>now, some users sees a screenshot, asks what GRF it is and it told it is <name of set>
15:07<Rubidium>user goes to bananas, selects !!<name of set> (the only one showing with he filter)
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15:08<Rubidium>downloads it, installs it, and is annoyed that the NewGRF does not work (no new ships)
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>i should put a GRF on bananas: "i have a nice grf, but you cannot have it!"
15:08<andythenorth>[shrug]
15:08<andythenorth>like pikka said, lots of newgrfs don't really work
15:08<andythenorth>it's not new to have crappy content on bananas
15:08<andythenorth>nor is it new to have falling outs with OzTrans
15:08<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: make lots of nice screen shots and post them everywhere!!
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>and then "my GRF is better than MBs and Pikkas combined, but you can still not have it"
15:08<Rubidium>andythenorth: crappy content != effectively no content
15:09<andythenorth>did you remove it already then? :)
15:09<Rubidium>I won't remove it, I'll just make it invisible
15:09<Kjetil>oztrans ?
15:09<andythenorth>\o/
15:10<andythenorth>maybe Apple examples aren't the best here, but there *is* a sound effect on the mac called sosumi
15:10<andythenorth>which relates to "Apple Records had an injunction preventing Apple Computer making devices with playback capability"
15:11<andythenorth>arsing about with the ToS is a legal headache, with no purpose, as nothing community related is coming to court anyway
15:12<andythenorth>there might be some forum moaning, then just lock the thread
15:13<Kjetil>just put "This is not a democracy in the ToS"
15:14<SpComb>I doubt ToS is a legal anything much
15:14<SpComb>but I guess the "educate grf authors about how bananas works" angle has already been tried?
15:15<Rubidium>yeah
15:15<Rubidium>issue is that they want to delete the GRF, and if it is up to them, deleting it from bananas triggers deleting it from the user's computer as well
15:17<andythenorth>well that's not how it works
15:17<andythenorth>so the issue can be closed: invalid
15:17<andythenorth>like you said, bananas makes a promise / policy about savegames
15:18<andythenorth>it's not a fucking DRM system
15:18<andythenorth>content I've got doesn't stop working because 'you' decide (unless you - Rubidium decide :P )
15:18<Rubidium>and since they don't want their actual content on it, but they "need" it to be visible in bananas they are trying to do tricks
15:18<andythenorth>I don't mind DRM when I know what I'm getting into, i.e. iTunes
15:19<andythenorth>but that's not OpenTTD
15:19<Kjetil>*mumbles something about Open*
15:19<Rubidium>even so, if we add it to OpenTTD, then the next day someone will post binaries with that (mis)feature removed
15:19<andythenorth>I quite like the hax they've done though. Creative :)
15:21<andythenorth>still
15:21<andythenorth>just hide it
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>not everything that is creative is a benefit in the long term
15:21<andythenorth>OzTrans doesn't give a fuck about community, he's shown that over and over again
15:21<andythenorth>so bin him
15:21<@Alberth>imho there are far better ways to spend your time
15:21<andythenorth>whereas this otherwise escalates into a stupid 'vs. Simuscape issue'
15:21<andythenorth>which makes SAC sad, because blatantly she really wants everyone to get along nicely
15:22<andythenorth>and makes me bored, only not bored enough to ignore it :P
15:22<andythenorth>I wonder if SAC has accidentally landed herself the worst possible people from a community perspective
15:23<frosch123>andythenorth: is the pink ship some kind of dummy/placeholder sprite?
15:23<andythenorth>she wants somewhere nice and safe and friendly, and has at least one person who has managed to alienate nearly everyone
15:23<andythenorth>frosch123: no it's a new style I'm trying :)
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i sure hope so :p
15:24<frosch123>well, you can never be sure about andy :)
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>you have a point there...
15:24<frosch123>the little cumbrae freighter looks nice
15:25<andythenorth>I am proud of that one
15:25<andythenorth>it's efficient on pixel use
15:25<frosch123>it's really "little" :)
15:25<andythenorth>reduces CPU time
15:34<@peter1138>hmm
15:34<@peter1138>cucumber freighter
15:35-!-Superuser [~root@host81-129-131-143.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
15:35<Superuser>hello again
15:36<__ln__>you again
15:36<Superuser>STR_TIMETABLE_EXPECTED_TOOLTIP: '{BLACK}Switch between expected and schedule'
15:36<Superuser>hmm... shouldn't it be scheduled? ;)
15:36<Superuser>(note the past tense)
15:38<Superuser>STR_AI_DEBUG_NAME_AND_VERSION: {BLACK}{STRING} (v{NUM})
15:38<andythenorth>peter1138: http://www.worth1000.com/entries/352869/cucumber-house
15:39<Superuser>can 'v' (version) be longer by, ooh... 5 characters? :)
15:40<Superuser>^ THAT IS A SERIOUS QUESTION BY THE WAY ^
15:40<frosch123>and i don't understand it
15:41<Superuser>Where does this show up? is it okay to make the string a bit longer
15:42<Superuser>also, STR_TIMETABLE_EXPECTED_TOOLTIP should have the English string corrected
15:42<Superuser>frosch123??
15:42<frosch123>http://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Need_To_Know#Logging_and_Debug_Panel <- i believe it is the text on the left panel
15:44<Superuser>dang, where might that be
15:44<frosch123>you need to enable the ai developer tools
15:44<Superuser>I don't indulge much in AI debugging...
15:44<Superuser>well, to save time - do YOU think there is enough space?
15:45<frosch123>there is even the ai name, and windows generally resize
15:45<@Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=168432 <-- example, Superuser
15:45<Superuser>egg-celent
15:45<@Alberth>ie AIAI(v87)
15:45<andythenorth>peter1138: can't do a cucumber freighter, there is no lighthouse of that name :P
15:45<andythenorth>I could do a cucumber cargo
15:46<andythenorth>then it would be a cucumber freighter
15:46<andythenorth>it could go to a cucumber sandwich factory
15:46<@Alberth>make a FARM newgrf :)
15:46<andythenorth>which could be delivered to 'posh houses'
15:46<andythenorth>hmm
15:46<andythenorth>openttd does not sufficiently reflect our modern class-based society
15:48<Kjetil>Also the world is not flat...
15:50<Superuser>openttd has hills :)
15:50<Superuser>and the sea
15:50<Kjetil>the sea at the edge of the world ? :P
15:52<@Alberth>otherwise my expensive trains would drive off the world!!
15:54<MNIM>actually
15:55<MNIM>what does OTTD do when you force a train to the end of the world?
15:55*MNIM tests
15:55<V453000>is the !! WTF hidden yet? I can still see it
15:57<frosch123>MNIM: the train is cloned; the real train is send to a train heaven, while a fake one remains in your game
15:57<frosch123>don't let the fake train fool you
15:58<MNIM>awww. it just stops and returns
15:58<MNIM>shame.
15:58<MNIM>it would have been fun to have it as some freaky easter egg disaster or something like that
15:58<frosch123>that happens only on some tiles
15:58<frosch123>try harder
16:03<Kjetil>easter egg disaster like: "You discovered america ?"
16:10<frosch123>there are easter egg vehicles advertising games of which the successor game has already been released
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16:41<Supercheese>andy, rather than purely axing all the previous FISH ships, perhaps a parameter to enable "extended version"? Or are the new ship stats too conflict-ish?
16:41<Supercheese>all/most/some
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16:42<LordAro>heyo all
16:42<LordAro>simuscape being annoying again?
16:42<Supercheese>it's never not
16:43<@Alberth>hi LordAro
16:43<@Alberth>and good night :)
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16:45<LordAro>lol
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16:47<@planetmaker>hi LordAro :-)
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16:49<LordAro>hey planetmaker
16:53<andythenorth>Supercheese: mostly I'm not doing that for the same reason pikka isn't
16:53<andythenorth>it requires work by me :P
16:53<andythenorth>for questionable benefit
16:54<andythenorth>which reduces my ability to release nice newgrfs
16:57<Supercheese>Well, I predict I'll like newfish very much, so it should be good :)
17:00<Wolf01>'night
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17:02<frosch123>LordAro: i explained the feature now in detail on the forums
17:02<frosch123>so, you can give it another try :p
17:06<Supercheese>Ooooh
17:06<Supercheese>Push-pull :D
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17:08<frosch123>yeah, the NewGRF made the livestock go totally NUTS and acquire driving licenses
17:08<frosch123>i blame V453000 for that
17:08<Supercheese>:D
17:09<frosch123>V453000: see what happens with livestock if they go at higher speeds
17:09<V453000>wat
17:09<Supercheese>Surely you've heard of cattle driving ;)
17:09<V453000>nothing but I wanted to make their eyes get larger with higher speed
17:09<@Terkhen>good night
17:10<andythenorth>hmm
17:10<andythenorth>nah
17:10<andythenorth>some posts are better not written :)
17:11<andythenorth>frosch123: that is a nice looking patch :)
17:11<andythenorth>should I do a train grf?
17:11<frosch123>i did not post any patch?
17:11<frosch123>:p
17:12<andythenorth>there is a png
17:12<andythenorth>I would read code? :P
17:12<andythenorth>nah, pictures are better
17:13<Supercheese>.pngs of code?
17:13<andythenorth>"output"
17:14<andythenorth>I did plan to implement HEQS as trains
17:14<andythenorth>with a new railtype
17:14<andythenorth>'plan' is a word not to interpret too literally
17:18<Supercheese>"think about briefly" perhaps
17:19<andythenorth>"amuse myself with"
17:19<andythenorth>Squid might get cargo sprites
17:19<andythenorth>if I cab
17:20<andythenorth>cab?
17:20<andythenorth>cba
17:20<NGC3982>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_pCDo2axB4
17:20<andythenorth>is it worth showing cargo in ships if it's only seen whilst loading?
17:20<Supercheese>Freight barges are uncovered
17:20<Supercheese>worth showing cargo there
17:21<Supercheese>Most other cases, not as much
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17:37<Superuser>http://translator.openttd.org/en/trunk/el_GR/STR_AI_CONFIG_CHANGE_NONE
17:37<Superuser>I lol'd
17:37<Superuser>isn't this always going to print the 'empty translations' message by the way?
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17:39<andythenorth>ho ho
17:39<andythenorth>"Fast Ferry"
17:39<andythenorth>"Fast Supply Vessel"
17:40<andythenorth>but "Hovercraft" instead of "Fast Hovercraft"
17:40<andythenorth>words
17:40<Supercheese>methinks "Hovercraft" implies "fast"
17:40<andythenorth>maybe
17:40<andythenorth>anyway, bedtime
17:40<andythenorth>bye
17:40<Supercheese>I'm sure there are slow hovercraft, but less frequent than the fast variety
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17:40<@peter1138>mmm push-pull
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes. please.
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17:49<Superuser>STR_TEXTFILE_README_CAPTION
17:49<Superuser>: '{WHITE}{STRING} readme of {STRING}'
17:49<Superuser>are you intentionally trying to make strings untranslatable
17:51<@planetmaker>we're intentionally trying to keep the amount of needed strings low. Thus of required repetitive translations
17:52<Superuser>talking of which, where is this actually printed?
17:52<Superuser>it's in a whole series of strings I can't find
17:53<Superuser>Anyone?
17:53<@planetmaker>whereever readmes need displaying...
17:53<Zuu>I suspect this one is printed in the window caption of the window that displays the readme of Ais GSs NewGrfs etc.
17:54<Zuu>Whenever I wonder where a string is used and I cannot understand that from the string name, I copy the full STR_.. name and make a global search for that in the entire source code.
17:54<@planetmaker>piece of advice, Superuser : your tone makes me hesitant to reply...
17:55<Superuser>That being?
17:55<Superuser>I like to append 'Anyone?' and similar things to my queries so it is made clear that I'm asking questions I expect answered.
17:55<Superuser>That is an unfortunate part of the culture of idling on IRC :(
17:56<Zuu>Allow a bit more than a minute for someone to type an answer.
17:58<@planetmaker>are you intentionally trying to make strings untranslatable <-- also sets the entry tone for the conversation. besides the impatience shown in "requesting" answers
17:59<Superuser>Of course. The work has to be done by someone.
18:02<@planetmaker>and the default assumption is that it's a pack of evil sadists who just invented the system to annoy you?
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21:58<Supercheese>http://rt.com/news/aeroscraft-revolutionary-airship-cargo-187/
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 14 00:00:48 2013