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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-15

---Logopened Fri Feb 15 00:00:49 2013
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01:48<andythenorth>Pikka bonjour and pineapples
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02:05<dihedral>good morning
02:06<Supercheese>need zeppelins
02:06<Supercheese>it's only 1907 :S
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02:16<andythenorth>zellepins are awesome
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02:48<Supercheese>zellepins? Kind of like terrapins, but not?
03:00<Flygon>The best sort of Zepplin is one that goes 250km/h...
03:01<Flygon>Frankly, we could have had those if the Heindenburg didn't accidentally catch fire >_>
03:01<Flygon>That, and WWII
03:01<Supercheese>Nazis ruined everything :<
03:02<Flygon>Technically, the lack of Helium ruine everything
03:02<Flygon>On an even more technical level
03:02<Flygon>WWI ruined everything...
03:02<Supercheese>Why did the Hindenburg not have helium? Because the US had a monopoly and refused to give any to the Nazis because they were Nazis
03:02<Supercheese>Ergo, Nazis ruined everything
03:02<Flygon>God dammit Supercheese
03:02<Flygon>Stop being so damn smart
03:03<__ln__>Flygon: Hindenburg didn't burn because of the hydrogen.
03:03<Flygon>__ln__: Didn't it burn due to unfavorable weather conditions?
03:03<Pikka>there's a lot of pineapples about, andythenorth
03:03<Flygon>It's my argument that hydrogen can be perfectly safe, if used properly
03:04<andythenorth>Pikka zellepins are like pineapples
03:04<andythenorth>or melons
03:04<andythenorth>or mangos
03:04<andythenorth>new industry grf
03:04<Flygon>I LOVE WATERMELONS <3
03:04<Pikka>spiky and grow out the top of other zellepins
03:04<Pikka>and smell horrible in the field
03:06<Eddi|zuHause>Factory Runs Until It Toesn't?
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03:06<Eddi|zuHause>... i should probably not make jukes this early in the morning :p
03:09<Pikka>planetmaker: now everyone's got it out of their system, move the thread to the spam bin :D
03:11<andythenorth>I like the auto-delete content idea
03:11<andythenorth>voting is definitely not gameable :)
03:12<Supercheese>"GRF hidden due to low user-rating"
03:12<andythenorth>yeah, writing scripts that hit the voting API is very hard
03:13*andythenorth wishes people would stop being dicks about Simuscape
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03:13<andythenorth>I suppose me pm-ing squire james to say he's being a dick, that's wrong
03:13<Eddi|zuHause>... i said it should be HIDDEN (not deleted) BY DEFAULT (i.e. the filter can be deactivated)
03:13<Pikka>people love being dicks about anything, andythenorth
03:13<Pikka>if they don't have something at the moment, they'll find something
03:13<andythenorth>can't they go build castles?
03:15<Pikka>did he reply?
03:15<andythenorth>I didn't do anything
03:15<andythenorth>I'm not mod :P
03:15<andythenorth>for good reasons
03:15<andythenorth>ugh andythenorth as mod
03:16<Pikka>I think it would be great
03:16<Pikka>better ask orudge
03:17<Supercheese>andythemod O_o
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03:23<andythenorth>Pikka: what ratio pax : mail
03:23<andythenorth>got a ferry 100 pax or 25t freight
03:23<andythenorth>60 mail?
03:26<Pikka>25 freight as in express, goods and such? seems a little low
03:26<Pikka>I'd have said 100 pax, 80 mail or 50 goods
03:26<andythenorth>could be a point
03:26<andythenorth>I'm cheating for game balance
03:27<andythenorth>the cows don't fit on the ferry seats very well :)
03:27<Pikka>I thought you weren't putting freight in ferries anyway
03:28<andythenorth>maybe farm
03:28<andythenorth>they fill size gaps :P
03:28<andythenorth>expensively, but nobody cares about that
03:31<Supercheese>good night
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03:41<andythenorth>wut wut
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03:51<@planetmaker>good morning
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03:57<Pikka>morning planetmaker
04:05<andythenorth>he has a point
04:05<andythenorth>no Fish in FISH
04:05<andythenorth>no Banananas on Banannanas
04:05<andythenorth>and with that
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04:06<@planetmaker>and especially no chips in CHIPS!
04:07<Eddi|zuHause>"A meteorite caused hundreds of injuries in russia"
04:16<Pikka>no CC in 10CC
04:16<Pikka>wait, yes there is.
04:17<Twofish>Crazy that it makes those shadows...
04:18<@planetmaker>that's no shadow, Twofish. That's a camera set on auto-gain
04:19<@planetmaker>brightness adjustment always has a lag wrt the actual images
04:19<Twofish>look at the lightpole shadows
04:20<@planetmaker>yes, it casts a bright light. But I referred to the overall brightness flickering
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>there was a story about an american military plane that had a "thunderstorm" button
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>no, it could not deploy thunderstorms as a weapon
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>it disabled the automatic brightness adaption in the cockpit, because in a thunderstorm with quick brightness changes, it was useless and further distracting
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04:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: :o
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04:32<andythenorth>Pikka: I might make a grf that just tells jokes
04:32<andythenorth>know any good jokes?
04:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: should be a gamescript.
04:33<andythenorth>I might make !!Kittens.grf
04:33<andythenorth>it just links to kitten picture of the day
04:34<Pikka>good idea
04:34<andythenorth>I should do work
04:35<andythenorth>and stop arsing about
04:35<andythenorth>oh, Australia has been buying things from me
04:35<andythenorth>that's lovely
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04:40<Eddi|zuHause>work is overrated
04:41<@peter1138>oh kamnet you
04:41<andythenorth>I could hug him
04:42<andythenorth>he's so lovely
04:51<andythenorth>so 100 pax, 80 mail
04:51<andythenorth>mailbags can go on seats
04:52<andythenorth>what sizes mail ship are needed
04:52<andythenorth>currently the step would be 24 -> 80 -> lots
04:52<@peter1138>should i put another pot of coffee on?
04:54<@planetmaker>of course. Coffee is never wrong
04:54*planetmaker makes tea now, though
04:55<Pikka>what's lots?
04:55<Pikka>300? 500? 2000?
04:55<@peter1138>i don't think i could handle that much coffee
04:57<andythenorth>just have small ones
04:57<andythenorth>Pikka: you want a 20000 mailbag ship?
04:57<andythenorth>are you insane? o_O
04:57<Pikka>I'm just asking what size you mean by "lots" :)
04:58<andythenorth>well lots of ships can carry mail
04:58<andythenorth>so > 80
04:58<@planetmaker>24, 80, 300, 1500
04:58<andythenorth>maybe up to about 1200 bags
04:58<andythenorth>mostly you only care at the small end
04:58<Pikka>24 -> 80 -> morethan80 sounds like a decent scale to me :)
04:59<Pikka>definitely don't need any more between 24 and 80, or less than 24.
04:59<andythenorth>optimising matters for small towns and routes that don't make much money
04:59<andythenorth>optimising is blah for big routes
05:00<andythenorth>wonder if I could patch multiple ship holds
05:01<oskari892>! More from that meteorite
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05:07<Pikka>articulated ships, andy
05:09<@peter1138>ship shadows
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05:14<andythenorth>shadow ships
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05:51<Pikka>if this happened in america, all the videos would be full of people screaming "OH MAA GAAAAAWDDDDDDDD"
05:51<Pikka>russians just say "eh, meteorite"
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>there's a comment like "this is fake, there are thousands of videos on youtube where cars or jets crash into houses"
05:55<@peter1138>what is "content"?
05:55<@peter1138>nobody knows
05:55<@peter1138>but is "content" different from content?
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>same way as "realism" is different from realism?
05:56<@peter1138>are "waypoints" different from waypoints?
05:56<@peter1138>is ' different from ` ?
05:57<@peter1138>(not for some germans :D)
05:59<@planetmaker>try to use it synonymous in bash, peter1138 ;-)
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06:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by matthijs :: r25002 trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp (2013-02-15 11:01:43 UTC)
06:01<@DorpsGek>-Doc: [SDL] Fix typo in comment.
06:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by matthijs :: r25003 trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp (2013-02-15 11:01:45 UTC)
06:01<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24993): [SDL] Keep a flag to remember if a hardware palette was requested.
06:01<@DorpsGek> - Previously, the code would query the SDL_HWPALETTE flag, which doesn't always match the requested value.
06:01<@DorpsGek> - This would cause SDL to be restarted on every window resize event, effectively breaking resizing.
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>so that's what the black borders after resizing were about?
06:03<@peter1138>what black borders? :p
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06:30<Pikka>jonty-comp: better than locking it, move it to the spam bin and then if anyone asks what happened to it, deny it ever existed. :)
06:30<@peter1138>blah blah blah
06:31<jonty-comp>Pikka: tempting
06:32*jonty-comp hasn't locked a topic in years
06:34<Pikka>nice job
06:35*Pikka bed, early start tomorrow
06:35*jonty-comp only just got up
06:35<jonty-comp>you crazy upside-downs
06:36<Pikka>although, often, my personal timekeeping and the diurnal cycle only coincidentally coincide. :)
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06:36<Eddi|zuHause>people should use the 28 hour day more often :p
06:39<andythenorth>would be useful with babies
06:39<andythenorth>more time to have a life
06:41<andythenorth>or argue on the internet
06:41<andythenorth>or make newgrfs
06:42<@peter1138>now i can't read people winding each other up :(
06:42<andythenorth>may I recommend the BBC Have Your Say section?
06:42<andythenorth>or YT comments?
06:42<andythenorth>I won't
06:42<andythenorth>ever thought of doing shadow-ships?
06:42<andythenorth>I could help :P
06:42<@peter1138>doesn't count if it's something random :p
06:42<@peter1138>shadow ships
06:42<@peter1138>no, i've not
06:43<andythenorth>that too
06:44<andythenorth>can we keep cargo in smoke?
06:44<andythenorth>it might...disappear
06:45<andythenorth>I suppose making ships carry fuel would be really really tedious?
06:45<andythenorth>ship range :P
06:45<andythenorth>ship range would smell
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06:47<jonty-comp>i'm bored now
06:47<jonty-comp>i might unlock it again
06:48<andythenorth>you did right
06:48<andythenorth>can you retitle it blah blah blah please
06:48<jonty-comp>but now i have to do actual work :(
06:48<andythenorth>me too
06:48<andythenorth>unlock it later :P
06:48<@peter1138>argue with mb instead
06:48<jonty-comp>no, that's like trying to argue with a brick wall
06:48<andythenorth>I like MB :)
06:48<andythenorth>Michael doesn't usually produce walls of text
06:48<andythenorth>walls of text are a bad sign
06:49<@peter1138>looks like arguing with kamnet is like a brick wall
06:49<jonty-comp>he is just a brick wall regardless of arguments
06:49<@peter1138>gotta love his way of dismissing arguments
06:49<jonty-comp>he follows the dave worley practice of winning arguments - ignore the bits that you can't answer + overwhelming self-confidence :P
06:50<jonty-comp>anyway, at least this work i am doing is fun audio mastering
06:50<V453000>The most significant byte (RR) is reserved and must be and-masked out. what does this mean?
06:50<andythenorth>can I have my own argument with squire james?
06:50<V453000> signals
06:50<@peter1138>it's means it's not currently used
06:50<andythenorth>so don't try and read it
06:50<V453000>I simply didnt include the 0xRR and it seems to have compiled
06:50<andythenorth>might get used in future
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06:51<andythenorth>it will compile either way
06:51<andythenorth>but your grf might suddenly break one day
06:51<andythenorth>if that byte is used
06:51<@peter1138>some authors have a habit of assuming all reversed bits will always be zero
06:51<V453000>well it shouted syntax error with 0xRR
06:52<@peter1138>well that's not a hex value
06:52<@peter1138>*reserved bits
06:54<V453000>hm apparently it doesnt quite work
06:55<V453000>if it is "TT" does it mean I should use 01 instead of 1, right?
06:55<@peter1138>you have to mask the bits you want
06:55<@peter1138>surprising for nml to be honest
06:56<V453000>how do I do that?
06:56<jonty-comp>and lo, the first track i master today is someone doing a smooth jazz cover of the pokémon theme
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06:56<@peter1138>((extra_callback_info2 >> 16) & 0xFF) will give you TT as values from 0-255
06:56<@peter1138>assuming nml supports that syntax
06:56<V453000>uhm so like &1&0&0?
06:58<V453000>hm unexpected token {
06:58<V453000>not good :D
07:00<@planetmaker>V453000, value = variable & 0x00FFFFFF
07:00<@planetmaker>if the variable is 4 byte long
07:01<@planetmaker>then continue to use value in your analysis of the result which is of actual interest
07:01<@planetmaker>or in a switch statement like
07:01<@planetmaker>switch (FEAT_RAILTYPE, SELF, blablaswitch, variable & 0x00FFFFFF) { 0: thisswitch; 1: anotherswitch; }
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07:02<V453000>so I inspect TT, SS, or whatever one at a time?
07:04<@planetmaker>right... you likely only want to inspect one of 0xRRTTVVSS at a time:
07:04<@planetmaker>((extra_callback_info2 & 0x00FF0000) >> 16) for TT
07:04<@planetmaker>((extra_callback_info2 & 0x0000FF00) >> 8) for VV
07:05<@planetmaker>(extra_callback_info2 & 0x000000FF) for SS
07:05<@planetmaker>bit magic :D
07:06<V453000>I understand it now :) hopefully
07:06<V453000>lets see what it does
07:08<@planetmaker>actually... you should rather do ((extra_callback_info2 & 0x00000100) >> 8) for VV - the other bits there are also reserved ;-)
07:08<@planetmaker>though... only values. not bits
07:08<@planetmaker>thus do something useful error-wise if the value is not 0 or 1 for VV :-)
07:09<@planetmaker>I'd just ignore that, though :D
07:09<V453000>I am starting to hate computers
07:11<@peter1138>planetmaker, does it need to be the opposite way around to what i said then?
07:12<@planetmaker>peter1138, your way is equally fine. I didn't read back fully. sorry
07:17<V453000>I tried thiz
07:17<V453000>only the basic block signal seems to show :s
07:17<@planetmaker>fuck... bad gateway :S
07:17<V453000>wa :D
07:18<@planetmaker>solved... the old cookie problem
07:18<@peter1138>you haven't shifted
07:18<@peter1138>& 0x000000FF is unnecessary
07:18<@peter1138>just & 0xFF
07:19<@planetmaker>but using 0x000000FF is - from my POV - nicer when you know that you deal with 4 bytes
07:20<@planetmaker>(extra_callback_info2 >> 16) & 0x00FF0000
07:20<@planetmaker>(extra_callback_info2 >> 16) & 0x000000FF or (extra_callback_info2 & 0x00FF0000) >> 16
07:22<@peter1138>GB(extra_callback_info2, 16, 8) ;)
07:22<@peter1138>any idea why this isn't nmlised anyway?
07:23<V453000>(extra_callback_info2 >> 16) & 0x000000FF is for the last two, right? SS
07:23<@planetmaker>callbacks are difficult to NML-ize. It might need special variable names for that. like cb_XXX where XXX is the actual thing which we just typed here
07:24<@planetmaker>that's not for the last two. for 0x00XX0000
07:24<@planetmaker>the XX part
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07:24<V453000>._.can I ask why is it at the end then ? :D
07:24<@planetmaker>the >>16 shifts the variable 16 bits to the right
07:25<@planetmaker>and only then the bitmask is applied. At a time where the XX is already at the end
07:26<V453000>so TT is >> 8?
07:26<@planetmaker>no. TT = (extra_callback_info2 & 0x00FF0000) >> 16
07:29<V453000>its baking :)
07:30<@peter1138>in ottd shift is applied before mask, so i'd do it that way
07:30<@peter1138>dunno what magic stuff nml does :p
07:33<V453000>LOL and I mixed it all up together :DD
07:33<V453000>jeez :D
07:33<V453000>but progress
07:35<V453000>right ... only strange thing is that I have all signals red instead of green
07:36<V453000>the wiki says 0 is red, is that surely correct?
07:38<@peter1138>show your code
07:39<V453000>im sure that spritesets which say green are green
07:39<@peter1138>you've shifted EVERYTHING 16 bits
07:39<V453000>? :D
07:39<@peter1138>only TT needs to be shifted 16 bits
07:39<V453000>either way the signals are perma red :)
07:39<@peter1138>VV needs to be shifted 8 bits
07:40<@peter1138>and SS doesn't need to be shifted
07:40<V453000>thats waht I thought :D ok
07:40<V453000>but the 0x00FFbla things stay as I have them now, right?
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07:43<V453000>I think it works now
07:43<V453000>thanks :)
07:43<V453000>I cant say I know what I coded, but it works :D all that matters for me
07:43<V453000>now to get offsets sorted out and draw proper signals :)
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07:44<andythenorth>V453000: that's how my code works too :P
07:44<V453000>I mean at least in the end when I have it done I usually understand it
07:44<V453000>not this time :D
07:44<V453000>all I know that an evil 0x00000000000000 caterpillar can be mutated by evil >> bla
07:45<V453000>or what
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>.... or what
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07:59<andythenorth>what I wonder
07:59<andythenorth>have the "something must be done" guys
07:59<andythenorth>read the ToS? o_O
08:01<andythenorth>also I wonder
08:01<andythenorth>is it lunch time?
08:02<jonty-comp>a much more important question
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08:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, did somebody have a link to the ToS?
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08:14<V453000>TOO LONG
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08:32<andythenorth>there's nothing in ToS that confers any rights on uploader
08:32<andythenorth>so admins can delete wtf they want
08:32<andythenorth>which was already known
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08:33<Looser>Hi. Who do I have to ask to get a permission for lets play videos?
08:34<andythenorth>ho hall of fame thread has gone bad too
08:34<andythenorth>jonty-comp: you are doing a nice job :)
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08:35*andythenorth is having fish
08:35<andythenorth>and chips
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08:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so, what has the GRF-ID thing have to do with anything?
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08:39<Looser>Noone here who can answer my question?
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>Looser: why do you think you need permission for anything?
08:40<V453000> FAK :D
08:41<Looser>Eddi|zuHause: Copyright?!
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>Looser: in which country?
08:42<Looser>in any country
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>there is a different copyright in every country
08:43<Looser>youtube has ONE rule for intelectual property.
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>one rule to intellect them all!
08:44<Looser>Eddi|zuHause: Open source does not mean that everyone has the right to use it without conditions.
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>that is true, but the conditions you can read in the license...
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>plus, copyright has options of "fair use" and similar, where you can do things which are not covered by the license
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>but these rules differ in every country
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>hence why i ask
08:46<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, one of the points these iGRF break is to spam also the ingame lists with double (or in BKTunnels case) even tripple entries. Using always the same grfID prevents that
08:46<@planetmaker>just assuming we allow such advertisement / spam NewGRFs on bananas
08:47<@planetmaker>Looser, no single person owns the copyright on OpenTTD, its base sets nor its extensions like ai, game scripts, newgrfs or similar
08:48<@planetmaker>so no single person could grant you permission other than "read the license and obey it"
08:48<@planetmaker>or rather "licenses"
08:48<@planetmaker>Most notably the sound set is NOT GPL-licensed. Nor can you generally expect that of NewGRFs
08:49<@planetmaker>that said, I personally see no breach in anyone's right, if you make a movie which shows you or others playing OpenTTD
08:49<@planetmaker>but IANAL
08:51<kormer>I anal too.
08:55<jonty-comp>andythenorth: why thanks
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08:55<jonty-comp>i post because i have nothing better to do this week :P
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but i think you're arguing a small detail when a much bigger picture is being discussed
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09:07<@planetmaker>that is true, Eddi|zuHause. I'm aware of that :-)
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09:22<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
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10:29<Eddi|zuHause>"An 'Apple Shop' in Norfolk (England) has announced it is changing its name, because increasingly more people demand devices instead of fruits"
10:33<andythenorth>the same will happen to banana shops one day
10:33<andythenorth>people will go in and ask for newgrfs
10:34<@planetmaker>I wonder what will happen to nogo areas? do people expect game scripts there? :-)
10:36<andythenorth>for threads where some stupid slagging of simuscape happens, would tt-forums mods consider simply moving it to off-topic?
10:36<andythenorth>as it's not helpful
10:37<andythenorth>and tbh
10:37<andythenorth>it reveals a side of people in the community that I don't like at al
10:37<andythenorth>and makes me 50% tempted to go to simuscape
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>YOU HERETIC! GET OUT OF HERE!
10:40<andythenorth>yeah that
10:40<V453000>well, what is tt-forums or simuscape for anyway ... just a forum
10:41<V453000>im on both but involved in neither
10:41<V453000>writing shit here and there
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>you must at the same time leave the devzone, remove all stuff from bananas, and change the licenses to proprietary
10:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: for why?
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>and while at it, include DRM that rootkits everybodys computer
10:42<andythenorth>oh yeah that
10:42<andythenorth>I'll need that
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>just because you must assume that they use stuff that you don't want them to use
10:43<andythenorth>or because I want to sell you to spammers
10:43<V453000>uhmmm isnt simuscape just another forum?
10:43<andythenorth>but anyway
10:43<SpComb>V453000: community, big difference
10:44<V453000>stupidly closed out, but still
10:44<andythenorth>V453000: so when I say 'go to', I mean move the dev / release threads for my grfs
10:44<V453000>how productive are those threads anyway
10:44<andythenorth>I don't mean 'flounce off in a big huff, and throw away my login and remove all my posts and images'
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: to do that, you must change the content of all your posts on the forum by "..."
10:45<V453000>idk why does anyone remove that
10:45<V453000>looks like massive overreaction and attention whoring to me
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know that either, but apparently it still happened
10:46<jonty-comp>i think it would be better to spam-bin any such posts, rather than move them to off-topic :p
10:46<andythenorth>well that too
10:46<andythenorth>one or the other
10:46<jonty-comp>bin them and also give the perpetrators a good slap
10:46<V453000>I have to admit that simuscape seems relatively productive in what they do, in how they solve issues and help each other
10:46<andythenorth>they are a nice place
10:46<andythenorth>full of people who just want to be nice
10:46<jonty-comp>everyone is nice in a different way
10:46<@planetmaker>sounds awesome. I wonder why it doesn't show
10:47<andythenorth>it's perplexing that some paranoid fuckheads in tt-forums think that 'simuscape people are out to sabotage everything'
10:47<jonty-comp>and it seems the tt-f way of nice doesn't agree with the simuscape way of nice
10:47<@peter1138>andythenorth, i don't think they do
10:47<V453000>planetmaker: perhaps because their content is idiotically unacessible? :D
10:47<@peter1138>andythenorth, it seems to be simupeople think that ttpeople think that simupeople... etc etc
10:48<andythenorth>maybe I am too paranoid
10:48<andythenorth>and a fuckhead
10:48<andythenorth>both are possible
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i said pretty much that, but then the post magically disappeared from the thread
10:48<andythenorth>this for example
10:48<jonty-comp>if this is like the cold war, which forum can be america and which can be the soviet union? :D
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>jonty-comp: maybe it's iran and israel instead?
10:49<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you moan a lot. And do a lot to keep the fire burning. In every single such thread
10:49<jonty-comp>i'm not up on my middle-eastern politics as much though
10:51<andythenorth>maybe it's just simuscape and tt-forums
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>jonty-comp: well basically iran is like "we want to be the major force in the region" and israel is like "everybody out there is evil and wants to get us"
10:51<jonty-comp>i see
10:51<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, a number of postings from that thread was just moved to the spam bin... it started to get personal
10:52<@planetmaker>in an ugly fashion
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10:53<jonty-comp>at least it seems to be doing more productive things now
11:00<andythenorth>some interesting simuscape projects
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11:51<@peter1138>who knows
11:51<andythenorth>I DO!
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12:02<Eddi|zuHause>i don't
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>btw: how long until the court of human rights rules that CAPTCHAs are discriminating?
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12:16<lolek1>hello all
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12:18<lolek1>i've got a question i'm trying to play a little with openttd, i've got version: 1.1.4 (ubuntu repo), i've some trains vehicles, and now i need to replace old vehicles. The vehicles are in groups the groups contains only buses, the problem is after i open replace vehicle list the right list is.. empty ... any idea what's wrong ?
12:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: discriminating on which of the many possible bases?
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>"computers are human, too"
12:21<V453000>that it is fucking annoying and 80% of the time I get letters wrong
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause>... i just find it fucking annoying that i solved like 5 of their CAPTCHAs, but never actually signed up there...
12:25<Pinkbeast>lolek: Are you trying to replace vehicles because they are old and worn-out, or with vehicles of a different type?
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12:26<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: people coming to other forums and asking "i can't solve this captcha, please help"
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12:34<lolek1>Pinkbeast: well i need to replace cause they'r old
12:35<oftcrash>good afternoon/morning/evening... I'm on my first bananas upload - I'm tarring up the files, but should I not gzip them as well?
12:36<Pinkbeast>Right, but are you trying to change the types at the same time? If not, autorenew will take care of it.
12:36<@planetmaker>hello oftcrash
12:36<oftcrash>and it really has content in it :)
12:36<@planetmaker>oftcrash, you can zip it. But it's not required
12:36<Pinkbeast>If so, a screenshot of the interface where you are having the problem would be informative.
12:36<lolek1>Pinkbeast: well no, i don't want to change type
12:36<@planetmaker>you can also just zip it w/o using tar
12:36<lolek1>Pinkbeast: hmm ok, give me a minute
12:36<Pinkbeast>In that case just check autorenew is switched on and it will happen automagically.
12:37<lolek1>well i've read about autorenew but i'd like to do i t by hand for the first time
12:37<oftcrash>I have the license and readme with it, so I need to package it. I don't mind tarring, just wondering if it should be gzipped. I tried it that way out of habit, but it didn't show in my grf list
12:37<lolek1>ok i did a screenshot but where it is located?
12:38<Pinkbeast>lolek: Since you have not said which OS you are on, am I right in assuming you use Windows?
12:38<lolek1>oh sorry
12:38<lolek1>no ubuntu
12:38<Pinkbeast>Huh, I thought only Windows users did that.
12:39<lolek1>well i'm the exception that acknowledge the rule ;)
12:39<Pinkbeast>Probably ~/.openttd
12:39<lolek1>k, sec.
12:40<@planetmaker>oftcrash, bananas will anyway unpackage it and re-package it. So, it's just a matter of upload speed
12:40<@planetmaker>And frankly, uploads to bananas don't contribute significantly to *our* bandwidth
12:41<oftcrash>ah ok - its town names, so its very small
12:41<Pinkbeast>lolek: Ah. This is very early in the game - is there actually any other available bus type?
12:41<lolek1>Pinkbeast: the right pane of replace read vehicle window is empty
12:41<lolek1>well no, there isn't
12:41<Pinkbeast>Wait, it's 1964, hm...
12:41<@planetmaker>might be different, if everyone created something like zBase :-)
12:42<Pinkbeast>OK; you'd expect that if there is only one road vehicle type that carries passengers.
12:42<Pinkbeast>Since the autoreplace window is intended for changing types.
12:42<lolek1>so i don't have the posibility to change it by group ?
12:42<lolek1>only autorenew option or manually ?
12:43<Pinkbeast>You could change it by group, yes - but only when there's something to change it _to_.
12:43<Pinkbeast>If you want to replace all the vehicles in a group and they all have the same orders, I would order them all to depot, Ctrl-click-clone a set of new ones, and sell the old ones.
12:43<lolek1>well they're not
12:44<lolek1>ok, i've turned on the autorenew option
12:44<Pinkbeast>So you want to replace your oldest busses with busses of the same type but they are not yet due for autorenew?
12:44<lolek1>well i've got autorenew disabled
12:44<lolek1>so i wanted to do it by hand but not one by one, but just groups
12:45<lolek1>i thought the replace road vehicle was made for that but i see now it's only for upgrade
12:45<lolek1>it would be great if the replace road vehicle would allow that
12:45<Pinkbeast>You can control when autorenew kicks in, but beyond that this isn't really a thing you can do.
12:46<Pinkbeast>I infer you're using default vehicles from the A4 pulling five coal wagons in the background. Poor Gresley's spinning in his grave. :-)
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12:47<aditsu>hi, can I play a multiplayer game through a proxy or tunnel?
12:49<@planetmaker>you'll need to proxy and tunnel the proper ports...
12:49<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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12:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: paying :)
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>in other topics:
12:53<@planetmaker>well stated
12:53<andythenorth>pretty awesome
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12:56<andythenorth>uploader pays
12:56<andythenorth>downloader pays
12:56<andythenorth>if download income > upload cost
12:56<andythenorth>if download income < upload cost
12:59<@planetmaker>andythenorth, sounds like the business model of Elsevier
13:00<@planetmaker>30% earnings on turn-over amount
13:01<andythenorth>the only puzzle is how to set the price
13:02<@planetmaker>starting at 30e for single download. If you make an abo, you can get away with 300€ yearly. sounds fair? Upload 500€
13:03<andythenorth>would I pay 500€ per grf?
13:03<andythenorth>probly not :P
13:03<andythenorth>how much would you charge downloaders?
13:04<andythenorth>assume an optimistic 1% conversion rate
13:04<andythenorth>223k FIRS downloads
13:04<andythenorth>@calc 223*0.01
13:04<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 2.23
13:05<@planetmaker>andythenorth, does the 30ct include updates?
13:05<andythenorth>probly not
13:05<andythenorth>@calc 2230 * .30
13:05<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 669
13:05<andythenorth>ok, I'm in profit on 500€
13:05<andythenorth>I / me / us / you
13:05<@planetmaker>then it spoils the release early, release often thing :-)
13:05<@planetmaker>or actually vice versa. depends
13:05<andythenorth>I think 1% is optimistic though
13:06<andythenorth>probably 0.1% might be more realistic
13:06<andythenorth>free vs. paid
13:07<andythenorth>so would you pay 30ct for an advertising grf?
13:08<andythenorth>you might
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>how many people are paying for the "HDplus" astra package? (the HD channels of advertisment-funded TV programs that are "free" in the SD-version)
13:08<andythenorth>it bugs me that I pay for sky
13:09<andythenorth>but Nickolodeon still shows ads every 10-15mins
13:09<andythenorth>which my toddler hates
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13:09<andythenorth>but I digress, and I am a grumpy old man
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, grampa
13:09<oftcrash>Hmm, you gave me an idea. A town name grf where all the names are sponsored. "Bob's Bar & Grill West" "St. Coca-Cola" Is that advertising?
13:09<andythenorth>I want to make a grf that shows actual real adverts
13:10<andythenorth>"get FIRS'
13:10<andythenorth>'buy Sony'
13:10<oftcrash>Ikea in every town...
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: a fully functional FIRS version with all industry graphics replaced with "pay me 50¢ to remove these ads and get real graphics"
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>oftcrash: SAC has an ikea grf :)
13:11<Pinkbeast>"This is the age of the Pikka train."
13:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I like your idea
13:12<andythenorth>'click here to play'
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13:13<andythenorth>paypal | visa | mastercard
13:13<Pinkbeast>Nah, you want to nickel-and-dime people with micropayments. "This industry will increase production in three months. Click here to pay 25 tokens to increase it immediately."
13:14<andythenorth>let's do that
13:14<oftcrash>Eddi: yeah, I pretty much only play with Swedish Towns now - it cracks me up.
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13:19<@planetmaker>quak :-)
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13:20<Eddi|zuHause>you are not fjb :)
13:20<oftcrash>I feel so accomplished - my first newgrf published to bananas :)
13:22<jonty-comp>does it contain graphics?
13:22<oftcrash>no, I'm not particularly arty
13:22<oftcrash>its martian town names
13:22<oftcrash>I wanted better names while I work on martian industry
13:23<oftcrash>should I bother with a release thread in the forum for the town names?
13:23<@planetmaker>that's your choice. It definitely is not needed
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>yay, another "white text on white background" post that you people so like ;)
13:23<@planetmaker>but would give users an easy place to give feedback
13:24<oftcrash>I linked up the dev thread about it - seems liek bugs end up getting reported in both locations
13:24<frosch123>moin :)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25004 /trunk/src/lang (7 files) (2013-02-15 18:45:34 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
13:45<@DorpsGek>german - 4 changes by planetmaker
13:45-!-andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:fc9a:5cb8:113b:a6f7] has joined #openttd
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 108 changes by Evropi
13:45<@DorpsGek>italian - 4 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<@DorpsGek>japanese - 3 changes by Aknuth
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 4 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>serbian - 9 changes by ivan_mile
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13:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it's kind of hard to stop with this issue eh? :P
14:01<frosch123>is it allowed to ask an naive question in the bananas topic?
14:02<FLHerne>andythenorth: The stupid bananas issue?
14:02*Supercheese shrugs
14:02<andythenorth>frosch123: eh why not
14:02*FLHerne finds it an interesting argument :-)
14:02<andythenorth>frosch123: check the ToS first though
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it can only be a bad idea :p
14:02<andythenorth>FLHerne: only interesting like car crashes
14:02<Pinkbeast>... linkie?
14:03<andythenorth>FLHerne: one thing about car crashes is, sometimes it becomes obvious whats going to happen a long time before it happens
14:03<andythenorth>which is what happened here :P
14:03<Supercheese>Well, I didn't see it coming at first
14:04<Supercheese>I even figured it wasn't that bad of idea when I first saw the post at Simuscape
14:04<frosch123>what would happen if i post something like: "all posts in this topic state either "igrf should be banned" or "why bother". is anyone of the opinion that igrf are an enrichment?
14:04<Supercheese>then everybody and their dog starts hatin' on it
14:04<Supercheese>of an idea*
14:04<andythenorth>it's a nice hack
14:04<FLHerne>frosch123: Kamnet (and OzTrans by proxy) would argue at you :D
14:04<@Alberth>frosch123: start a poll :)
14:04<FLHerne>And that would be interesting :-)
14:04<andythenorth>technically, it's neat. Socially it's toxic
14:04<Pinkbeast>frosch: I don't think it would help (alas)
14:04<Supercheese>I figured it was marginally better than having no information at all
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: kamnet was trying to make an argument on behalf of "the other side", but i'm not sure i understood his point
14:05<Supercheese>but according to everybody else, nope
14:07<andythenorth>Supercheese: so (repeating case). (Some) players are known to have an issue. Finding and installing content is tricky, confusing, scary. Discovering it, downloading it, figuring out where to put it. Causes issues. Bananas solves that.
14:07<andythenorth>Now. We start putting grfs on bananas that return us to the previous situation, except discovering is marginally easier
14:07<Supercheese>Marginally, yes
14:07<Supercheese>it's already clear these fools won't use Bananas
14:08<Supercheese>so I thought a marginal improvement is better than no improvement at all
14:08<Supercheese>but meh
14:08<@planetmaker>nor the required support
14:08<andythenorth>so if you accept that Bananas meets that purpose, then it's a bit poor show to start reintroducing the issue
14:08<andythenorth>if you don't accept the purpose of bananas is that, then you won't see the problem
14:08<Pinkbeast>I don't think it's a marginal improvement because it's not worth fucking up the utility of Bananas for one GRF
14:08<FLHerne>Supercheese: It isn't, because it removes the consistent simplicity from Bananas
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>i think there are two separable problems here: problem one is a pointless GRF that wastes everybody's disk space, processing power and bandwidth, and the other is the "referring to other download locations"
14:09<andythenorth>ony two problems?
14:09<Supercheese>I'd be perfectly fine with permabanning iGRFs and those who would make them, don't get me wrong
14:09<andythenorth>I see at least 5
14:09<frosch123>1. andy
14:09<andythenorth>there may even be 7 problems
14:09<frosch123>2. andy
14:09<frosch123>3. the
14:09<frosch123>4. north
14:09<frosch123>5. north
14:09<Supercheese>To me, it makes zero difference
14:09<andythenorth>frosch123 mostly right
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>problem one is a no-brainer, just remove it... problem two could be solved by people actually talking to each other. maybe bananas can have a mode "this GRF exists, but it can't be downloaded here"
14:09<Supercheese>I'll use Bananas and wherever else
14:09<Supercheese>to get stuff
14:10<Supercheese>and TBPH, I don't care that much about random users who can't install grfs manually :P
14:10<@planetmaker>forums and IRC are not for talking. Just for exchanging pre-fab opinions
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>then people trying to join servers and stuff would get a "this can't be downloaded here, but try this link"
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>without any stupid dummy grf that serves no purpose at all
14:10<FLHerne>planetmaker: IRC not always. Forums definitely, though :D
14:10<Supercheese>I'll try to make it easy for them by uploading my own GRFs to Bananas, of course
14:12<frosch123>we could add a "search in grfcrawler" button in ottd
14:12<frosch123>unless there is a dicussion every year that grfcrawler will be discontinued :p
14:12<Supercheese>could work
14:12<Supercheese>grfcrawler should be the #2 go-to place for searching for content, IMO
14:12<andythenorth>can we register openttd as a simuscape user?
14:12<Supercheese>right after Bananas
14:13<Supercheese>even before the forums, since grfcrawler links all over
14:13<Supercheese>and directly links, rather than bothering with search functions
14:13*Pinkbeast is catching up and Christ, who are these Simuscape clowns?
14:14<Supercheese>Fools who won't use Bananas
14:14<andythenorth>they're people with names
14:14<Supercheese>created their own site to host their stuff, require registration to even view threads
14:14<andythenorth>they include me
14:14<Supercheese>of course, they actually can produce nice grfs
14:14<Supercheese>which is the problem
14:14<andythenorth>I am an active contributor on simuscape
14:14<Supercheese>If they weren't capable, nobody would care :P
14:15<Pinkbeast>What, is FIRS going behind a paywall or something?
14:15<Supercheese>no, lol
14:15<andythenorth>so if anyone wants to continue the 'us and them' debate, please take it up with me
14:15<FLHerne>Supercheese: They're not fools for avoiding Bananas - that's fine. It's the 'abusing Bananas while avoiding actually using it' that annoys me...
14:15<Supercheese>andythenorth: I have more posts on Simuscape than you :D
14:15<andythenorth>Supercheese: that's resolvable :P
14:16<Pinkbeast>"Not only is it the 'Official Download Location' for all Canadian related graphics files for both TTDPatch and OpenTTD;" # I seriously doubt that, I wasn't aware the Governor-General even had an opinion on the issue
14:16<Supercheese>FLHerne: yes, and other reasons as well
14:16<oftcrash>I hadn't intended to start a flame war when I posted the original comment - I didn't have enough history with the forums to realize the vitriol that would arise, at least not until I went back and read a few older threads.
14:16<andythenorth>I've seen at least as many fools on tt-forums
14:17<andythenorth>if not more
14:17<FLHerne>andythenorth: There does seem to be correlation between Simuscape and those who dislike Bananas, though :P
14:17<Supercheese>Perhaps it's the trend of making major releases on April Fool's
14:18<Supercheese>I blame the devs
14:18<@planetmaker>I mostly see a correlation between "evil devs" opinion and simuscape
14:18<oftcrash>Is there a compromise solution - leave the one iGRF on bananas unless the author wants to remove it (one time deal), then amend the upload policy to explicitly require that newgrfs, or any other download I guess, have in-game playability or something like that?
14:19<Supercheese>What if I released my "NewGRF List Separators" on Bananas?
14:19<Supercheese>Those have no playability
14:19<Pinkbeast>oftcrash: or better yet, take out the trash and get rid of the obviously junk GRF
14:19<Supercheese>but admittedly you wouldn't have to go register somewhere to get them
14:19<@planetmaker>I even have written proof of my statement :-)
14:19<Supercheese>and they would have "full functionality"
14:20<FLHerne>Supercheese: They have a useful purpose to the user, however...
14:20<@peter1138>you have proof that we're evil?
14:20<aditsu>planetmaker: thanks, sorry I forgot to check back earlier, since there was no message directed to me
14:20<@planetmaker>that, too ;-)
14:20<oftcrash>Pinkbeast: Just removing it could escalate and start a bigger discussion about the devs taking on content editing authority. Leaving it in place as a grandfathered newgrf, then starting with all new uploads after that is the cleanest
14:20<Supercheese>Yeah, not the same
14:20<@planetmaker>aditsu, ?
14:21<Pinkbeast>oft: If there is going to be a policy change rather than an arbitary act of fiat, they're already taking on that authority.
14:21<frosch123>oftcrash: there will be for sure no rules for what will be hosted
14:21<andythenorth>there really is no need for policy change
14:21<aditsu>planetmaker: you were answering me about proxy/tunneling
14:21<Pinkbeast>If I were in their position I'd remove it and tell the uploader not to be a B.F.
14:21<andythenorth>rubidi*m or whoever just marks the grf so it 's hidden, end of
14:21<@planetmaker>oh, ok :-)
14:21<andythenorth>no policy change, no ToS blah blah blah, and no fricking endless hate war in the forum
14:22<frosch123>if at all there would be a rule: "we can deny to host any content without giving reasons"
14:22<andythenorth>frosch123: there already is, implicitly
14:22<Pinkbeast>frosch: A guideline: "don't be a dick".
14:22<@planetmaker>yes, that, frosch123
14:22<andythenorth>the ToS confer no rights on uploaders
14:22<andythenorth>there is no SLA
14:22<andythenorth>no guarantee of service, or fair treatment
14:22<frosch123>Pinkbeast: other sites express it like "this is a private site; if we don't like you, we ban you" or something like that
14:22<andythenorth>I have actually read the ToS, unlike, I assume, a lot of people
14:23<aditsu>oh, I see I can get the server ip from the list
14:23*Supercheese has not read them
14:23<Pinkbeast>frosch: I wouldn't go that far; I think Bananas should strive to provide an even-handed service to all good-faith uploaders.
14:23<@planetmaker>but... you agreed to them, Supercheese ;-)
14:23<Supercheese>I'd presume they basically convey "Don't be a dick"
14:23<Supercheese>and I can get on board with that
14:23<oftcrash>its more about perception - draconian approaches create more resentment. You have to wrap the draconian approach in nice language and a token compromise to make it seem fair
14:23<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, it should. But that sentence doesn't change that
14:23<frosch123> <- something like that rule #1
14:23<Supercheese>planetmaker: of course, I read a generic ToS once, and then presume 99.9% of all other ToSes are similar
14:24<andythenorth>Supercheese: all the ToS confer is the absolute right for ottd to distribute
14:24<Supercheese>I can't be too wrong, eh
14:24<andythenorth>and repackage
14:24<andythenorth>all the rights granting is one way
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14:24<frosch123>Pinkbeast: you can word it nicely, if you are a native speaker :)
14:24<andythenorth>don't word it, it's a fricking minefield
14:25<frosch123>andythenorth: "all the rights granting" does not work for us
14:25<Pinkbeast>I think "don't like" is a bit too strong - I don't _like_ the lorry set with naked ladies on, but I'm not sure it should be excised.
14:25<andythenorth>what's broken about it?
14:25*Supercheese likes that set
14:25<frosch123>we are not going to have appstore terms
14:25<frosch123>which conflict with gpl or similar
14:25<frosch123>that would be silly :p
14:25<andythenorth>but I'm only describing what we do have? o_O
14:25*andythenorth is puzzled ;)
14:26<Pinkbeast>In particular explicitly wording a policy means (inevitably) people will push right to the edge of it.
14:27<andythenorth>and if written wrong, it can unintentionally confer rights
14:27<Supercheese>Maybe I did read the ToS
14:27<Supercheese>if I did, I certainly have forgotten :P
14:29<Pinkbeast>Nerf this one upload, not good faith, but don't try and establish a boundary, if you ask me.
14:29<frosch123>the tos is only about the rights bananas gets for the content
14:29<frosch123>it does not claim any duties for anyone
14:29<Supercheese>All except #1 start with "You grant the OpenTTD team"
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>exactly, it doesn't talk about the duties that the service has
14:29<andythenorth>it has a dangerous 'everyone'
14:30<andythenorth>" everyone can download the content when they know that identifier"
14:30<andythenorth>but nvm
14:30<andythenorth>it will never come to court :)
14:30<Supercheese>ToS seem fine to me
14:30<andythenorth>I am -lots on changing them
14:30<@planetmaker>they're intentionally minimal
14:30<andythenorth>really really really -lots
14:31<andythenorth>all of this resolves to "don't be a dick", whether that's uploading stupid grfs, or saying stupid things about other people
14:31<andythenorth>except me
14:31<andythenorth>and make nice things
14:31<oftcrash>I love FIRS :)
14:32<oftcrash>and HEQS
14:32<@peter1138>i don't
14:32<@peter1138>andythenorth's a dick
14:32<andythenorth>where is roadtypes?
14:32<Pinkbeast>I hear he's one of those simuscape clowns. :-)
14:32*FLHerne also likes FISH and CHIPS :-)
14:32<andythenorth>FISH has been eaten by Squid
14:32<frosch123>not sure about simuscape and andy. currently i think pikka has a worse influence on andy
14:33<andythenorth>I could have finished it by now, but people were being wrong on the internet
14:33<andythenorth>pikka la la la
14:33<oftcrash>Could I attempt another derailment with an industry nml question? Actually, probably a bunch of questions
14:33<Supercheese>martian industries?
14:33*Supercheese should play a game with those
14:33<Supercheese>they look nice :)
14:33<oftcrash>I'm trying to figure out how to get the cargo production requirements working
14:34<Supercheese>I always hated being on mars and transporting Toffee and Soda and Cotton Candy
14:34<oftcrash>yeah - it really just started out as something fun to do to learn NML
14:34<@planetmaker>there's a produce callback, oftcrash
14:34<oftcrash>Not what I had intended to do much on - such is live
14:35<oftcrash>I found the produce callback, but the syntax has me a bit perplexed
14:35<oftcrash>Let me get the latest version up on github
14:36<andythenorth>I would help
14:36<andythenorth>but have to go out :)
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14:37<andythenorth>there will be FIRS examples
14:37<oftcrash>yeah... FIRS has been helpful... but you guys do all sorts of crazy stuff in there so its hard to weed through it all and figure out what is what.
14:38<andythenorth>oh yeah, this one is *really* simple :o
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14:38<Wolf01>hi o/
14:38<oftcrash>crazy as in cool, but beyond my abilities at this point
14:38<@planetmaker>bah... andy was faster :-)
14:38<andythenorth>30 lines of advanced varact 2 in one template :P
14:38<FLHerne>andythenorth: Out of interest, how tricky would it be to make an addon-grf to FIRS?
14:38<andythenorth>only slightly
14:38<@planetmaker>just copied the link... but primary...
14:38<andythenorth>mostly easy
14:38<andythenorth>what are you making?
14:38<frosch123>FLHerne: quite tricky, because firs changes all the time :p
14:39<FLHerne>andythenorth: Oh, ok. I might try out some of my stupid chain ideas then :-)
14:39<andythenorth>economies make your life way harder
14:39<oftcrash>ah, cool - thanks. I was reading through the NML
14:40<FLHerne>andythenorth: Not sure really, I had strange ideas about electric power, and related industries :P
14:40<Supercheese>Adding electricity is easy-ish
14:40<Supercheese>Making it good gameplay is hard
14:40<Supercheese>I tried, found gameplay booooooooring
14:42<aditsu>planetmaker: I set up a tunnel but it says server offline when I try to use it
14:43<aditsu>telnet connects
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>aditsu: you need to redirect both TCP and UDP through the tunnel
14:43<jonty-comp>myes, tunnels often don't do UDP
14:43<aditsu>ooh, I missed the UDP part
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14:43<aditsu>hmm.. it's an ssh tunnel
14:45<FLHerne>Is it possible to add extra carogs to town/houseset acceptance?
14:45<aditsu>it's super nasty to do udp through that :|
14:46<aditsu>maybe I should use some iptables rules instead.. still quite nasty
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: yes, but you have to modify the house sets directly
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>aditsu: i never made a tunnel, so i can't help you with that
14:48<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Not very convenient then :-( . Is it possible to edit the accepted cargoes of a houseset from a thirdparty grf?
14:48<oftcrash>The house IDs are usuall sequential, I think
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: no
14:49<oftcrash>I created a short script to loop through the IDs and override the accepted cargo types - it generated the NML for each house.
14:49<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Why do the OTTD/NewGRF devs never add the features/spec I need for my idiotic schemes!? :P
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: each houseset gets its own copy of the original houses, you can't modify houses of other grfs
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14:50<Eddi|zuHause>nobody apparently considered the idea of applying the engine_override feature for those (which is actually newer than the house sets)
14:50<aditsu>a simple forwarding tool (working directly with sockets) would be ideal.. it just needs to do udp
14:50<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: That was what I was thinking of when I asked :P
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: well, implement it then ;)
14:51<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Still insufficient C++ing skill :-(
14:51*FLHerne is slowly trying to learn it
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: skills in any other general purpose programming language should suffice... the rest is just syntax and details you figure out along the way :)
14:53<Supercheese>^ pretty much
14:54<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Only other one I know is C, and I'm not very good at that either :P
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15:24<Wolf01>I don't know why, but I suddenly remembered "Little Britain"
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15:35<aditsu>oh wow I made it! socks server (using ssh) + tsocks :)
15:40<FLHerne>Pikka: Hoy. No more UKRS2? :-(
15:41<@planetmaker>nice, aditsu
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15:57<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: i think pikka just easily gets bored when a project has reached a certain stage of maturity and wants to start over
15:58<FLHerne>Fair enough :-)
15:58<FLHerne>As long as it doesn't magically delete itself as soon as he stops updating it, it's fine :P
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16:05<jonty-comp>it's fine, the old versions will remain available...on bananas
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>.. unless he converts to simuscapism :p
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>the whole idea that not keeping old versions around makes people more likely to use the new version reminds me of this movie where the guy invents the wheel, but makes it square so that it can't roll backwards.
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16:12<Eddi|zuHause>funny: the german wikipedia says the "carry on" series consists of 30 movies, and the english wikipedia says 31 movies...
16:12<Supercheese>oftcrash: you build martian industries using python?
16:12<oftcrash>I poked at python a while back, but decided to actually learn it
16:12<oftcrash>seemed like a good way
16:12*Supercheese has never done much with python
16:12<oftcrash>my build scripts are really ugly though
16:13<oftcrash>not architected - more of a "hey, I should make a function"
16:13<Supercheese>I just use .pnml and gcc preprocessor
16:13<oftcrash>I can send you the processed nml if you want
16:13<Supercheese>I think I have python installed
16:14<Supercheese>I just don't code with it
16:14<oftcrash>you'll need python, plus jinja2
16:14<oftcrash>jinja2 is a templating engine
16:14<oftcrash>I can just commit the latest build too - might be easiest
16:15<oftcrash>the python is the easy part really - the NML is what's kicking my butt. I think I'm just missing some basics.
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>templating engines are funny things... they're supposed to be flexible and reusable, and then everybody uses a different one
16:15<Supercheese>I've not done much with industries
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>so no actual reusing happens :)
16:15<Supercheese>Seems harder than vehicles
16:15<oftcrash>yeah - I grabbed it since we're looking at doing some stuff with jinja2 and flask at work
16:15<oftcrash>yeah, wish I'd started with vehicles
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>vehicles are boring, everybody does them
16:16<oftcrash>the documentation is pretty good, but there are sections that assume a certain amount of knowledge about the game mechanics, or even NFO
16:16<Supercheese>Newgrfs are boring, everybody does them :P
16:16<oftcrash>all these action 1, action 14... I have to look them up and its all pretty wonky :)
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>oftcrash: knowing the underlying nfo concept is often helpful, yes
16:17*Supercheese knows very little about NFO
16:17<Supercheese>I hear it's hex
16:17<oftcrash>upon your house?
16:17<Supercheese>Evil stuff :P
16:17<oftcrash>There are FF people in the world, those who understand hex, those who don't, and 14 others
16:18<Supercheese>Isn't FF higher than 16?
16:18<jonty-comp>back in my day we wrote our TTD addons in assembly
16:18<aditsu>oftcrash is in the 2nd category :p
16:18<Supercheese>Like, 255?
16:18<@planetmaker>oftcrash, if you can do python you can actually write NML (without 'in') ;-)
16:18<oftcrash>er, F
16:19<Supercheese>that would be 15 then
16:19<Supercheese>13 others*
16:19<oftcrash>Sorry, I started life as a front-end web developer - everything was in doubles :)
16:19<@planetmaker>it's more fun with binary...
16:19<jonty-comp>by the looks of it, everybody is in the latter category
16:20<@planetmaker>there's 10 people in the world who understand binary. Who's the other?
16:20<jonty-comp>i wonder if the number of people that understand hex is as high as 1 in 15
16:20<Supercheese>highly doubtful
16:21<@planetmaker>who needs that when not being a nerd?
16:21<oftcrash>maybe we should just code all grfs in assembly like Sawyer would have :)
16:22<oftcrash>or did, really
16:22<@planetmaker>Not really. the base grfs are much much simpler
16:22<@planetmaker>no action0,1,2,3,... only real sprites
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16:24<oftcrash>I think I came at it all backwards - I started with trying to modify and duplicate the oil rig, and then finally figured out from forum posts and looking through the source that what I wanted wasn't possible yet.
16:24<oftcrash>I should have just drawn a picture - followed the tutorials for that and then worked my way up to industries :)
16:25<oftcrash>I'm re-reading the NML tutorial now
16:25<Supercheese>Unfortunately the tutorial doesn't touch industries IIRC
16:26<oftcrash>no, but there's stuff about the general game that helps - understanding the time, switches, etc
16:26<oftcrash>stuff I didn't fully grasp. I don't learn well from reading - I need flow charts and hands-on.
16:27<oftcrash>which is why I went into management a few years back :)
16:33<oftcrash>any idea how many people play TTPatch vs OpenTTD?
16:33<oftcrash>I'd rather not have to deal with testing for TTP
16:36<frosch123>there are about 3 people who talk abou ttdp
16:36<frosch123>it's unlikely that they play though
16:36<frosch123>outside of the forums there are likely still some hundred people who play ttdp 2.0.1 for years
16:36<frosch123>and have never discovered that there are other things
16:37<frosch123>overall, i guess you can assume a ratio of 1:500 or 1:1000 for ttdp:ottd
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16:38<oskari892>OpenTTD now is lightyears away from ttdp developement and the distance grows continously
16:38<oftcrash>good enough for me :)
16:38<jonty-comp>it only makes sense to develop for openttd
16:39<frosch123>oskari892: that does not necessarily affect the players
16:39<jonty-comp>as all you realistically want people to do is go "oh, this doesn't work in ttdpatch" and then move to openttd
16:39<frosch123>there are tons of people playing ancient versions of ottd and ttdp
16:39<jonty-comp>and then that makes it easier for everyone
16:39<LordAro>heyo all
16:39<frosch123>i am quite sure there are way more people playing ttdp 2.0.1 than ttdp 2.5 beta or 2.6 alpha
16:40<frosch123>there are regularly people on the forums asking how to upgrade from ottd 0.6 etc
16:40<SpComb>ttdp 2.0.1 > ottd 1.2.3
16:40<oskari892>Did someone bake the r25000 cake btw?
16:40<oskari892>Like someone did on r10000
16:40<frosch123>no, i believe the party was rescheduled to summer
16:41<frosch123>there was also a r20k cake, and i had a piece of it; but i believe there are no public pictures of it
16:41<LordAro>wait, we didn't suspend all OTTD development until summer?
16:42<oskari892>Seems that it's going to be r30000 in summer, at this speed
16:42<frosch123>r20k was an almond cake if i remeber correctly
16:42<frosch123>oskari892: currently we are at about 1000 revisions a year
16:42<frosch123>so, quite some time till r30k
16:42<oskari892>Okay :P
16:43<oskari892>Is there any chart of developement speed?
16:43<Supercheese>There was some fancy youtube video once
16:43<frosch123>there are many
16:43<frosch123>ohloh is one of them
16:43<Supercheese>Whizbang graphical depiction of OTTD development
16:43<frosch123>just type "ohloh openttd" in your searchbar
16:44<frosch123>then you can search for visualisation of ottd developement on the forums
16:44<frosch123>which should give you a nice video from darkvater
16:44<frosch123>someone made an upgrade to it later
16:44<frosch123>i think it was tb, but not sure
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: didn't you mean ttdp 2.0.1r1?
16:46<frosch123>i think it is 2.0r1
16:47<frosch123>October 24, 2003: TTDPatch 2.0 rev 1 available
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>ah, that way around then
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>that is almost 10 years ago :p
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>did the asteroid hit earth yet?
16:50<jonty-comp>back when was the number one place to be :P
16:50<jonty-comp>when i first emailed MB at the tender age of 12
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i never usenet-ed
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>and i was older than 12 back then :p
16:51*Supercheese was 13 in 2003
16:51<Supercheese>good times
16:52<Stimrol>hello, about the 4 new string in the newest build, where do they appear in game?
16:52<Supercheese>I played TTDP, but didn't really join any community stuffs
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>i was 12-ish when i played TTO :)
16:52<Supercheese>I was 5-6
16:52<Supercheese>I don't precisely recall, a wee lad
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>Stimrol: what strings are those?
16:52<oftcrash>I was 20 when I played TTO
16:53<Supercheese>didn't join any community stuff until 2007
16:53*Supercheese wonders what his first post was
16:53<Stimrol>Eddi|zuHause, for example this one --> STR_SERVICE_INTERVAL_DROPDOWN_TOOLTIP
16:53<Supercheese>probably embarrassingly silly :P
16:53<frosch123>Stimrol: vehicle gui
16:53<frosch123>vehicle details
16:54<LordAro>Supercheese: mine was one of the many topics asking where the old AI had gone :)
16:54<Supercheese>Actually, not silly at all
16:54<Supercheese>Joined 2007, didn't post until 2010?!
16:54<Supercheese>Pro lurker
16:54<Stimrol>frosch123, thanks found it :)
16:55<frosch123>Supercheese: why did you register if not for posting?
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: i took some time to join forums and stuff as well
16:56<Supercheese>I haven't the foggiest
16:56<Supercheese>evidently, lurking like mad
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: remembers the (un)read posts?
16:56<frosch123>i was also 2 years on the forums before registering
16:56<frosch123>i never use "unread posts"
16:56<frosch123>my goal is not to read every post
16:56<frosch123>not even remotely
16:57<frosch123>it's sufficient to read the titles of the topics to dismiss 2/3
16:57<Supercheese>I read every post that's outside of the General Transport, OffTopic, and Locomotion sections
16:57<Supercheese>which is probably less than 1/3 of all posts :P
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it's more about continuing to read a thread at the point you stopped
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: i read way fewer subforums than that
16:58<SpComb>I barely read the forums anymore
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16:59<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: reading topics with more than 10 posts is usually a waste of time
16:59<SpComb>used to read almost everything at one point
16:59<frosch123>and i can remember where i was in shorter topics :p
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, i sometimes wish i could ignore things like the dutch train set thread, which has about 100 posts on a busy day :)
17:00<Supercheese>where 80% of the posts are Voyager One drawing sprites
17:00<frosch123>ohoh, that sounds like you fail to ignore it :o
17:00<Supercheese>he draws so many sprites, it's incredible @_@
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i totally fail at ignoring stuff
17:00*peter1138 ignores Eddi|zuHause
17:00<Supercheese> /ignore
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>i'm already glad i can ignore the AI forum or the 32bpp forum
17:01<Supercheese>There are barely any posts there anyways
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>but ignoring individual threads at forums that i read is really difficult
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>and the forum's ignore function is totally useless
17:01<@peter1138>you can't ignore the 32bpp
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>I CAN!!!
17:02<@peter1138>you'll miss out on all that fantastic groundbreaking content
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>WATCH ME!
17:02<Supercheese>peter1138: You mean zbase? And... well... there isn't anything else, is there?
17:02<Supercheese>Oh wait, old GRVTS
17:02<@peter1138>there's ... uh ... that 8/32bpp thing
17:02<Supercheese>Wheee, 2 things
17:02<LordAro>there's the old stuff, which mostly isn't usable anymore
17:02<Supercheese>OH, OGFX+ Trains
17:03<Supercheese>3 things!
17:03<@peter1138>which is crud
17:03<Supercheese>Bad_Brett's working on stuff, unreleased though
17:03<@peter1138>but hey, wasn't 32bpp just waiting on EZ?
17:03<@peter1138>i mean that's only been a year
17:03<Bad_Brett>Someone called?
17:03<@peter1138>Bad_Brett's stuff looks goo
17:03<Supercheese>You could claim like, 50% of the 32bpp market share like that
17:03<Supercheese>just release a grf
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>yes, total goo...
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: CETS supports 32bpp
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>that must be like 20000 sprites :p
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17:06<Supercheese>CETS... that isn't publicized much is it?
17:06<frosch123>what happened to cets?
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>currently too busy
17:06<frosch123>did it break under its complexity?
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>it broke under nmlc's memory huggyness
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>needs like >2GB free memory to compile, which i don't have, so it blocks the system swapping for 30 minutes
17:08<Supercheese>It's real snazzy though, with them extra-turn-stages
17:08<Supercheese>too bad the method only works for trains
17:08<Bad_Brett>in that case you won't see a Bad Brett release in the near future
17:09<Bad_Brett>if cets needs over 2GB free memory to compile
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: you wouldn't hit that limit unless you have 4000 vehicles in your GRF :p
17:10<oftcrash>Is it possible to articulate a ship or plane?
17:10<Supercheese>Nope, don't think so
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>oftcrash: planes are articulated (plane, shadow, rotor), and ships can't be articulated
17:10-!-DDR [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:11-!-DDR_ is now known as DDR
17:11<oftcrash>ah, but not in the sense of having a flying train, if you will
17:11<Supercheese>Someone suggested that once
17:11<Supercheese>wouldn't work
17:11<Supercheese>for a great many reasons
17:11<oftcrash>fun book I read a while back had sky trains using blimps
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: well, it's necessary for allowing NewGRF state machines for road vehicle stations
17:12<Supercheese>Flying trains would be cool though:
17:13<Bad_Brett>I would like an option to set the aircraft flying height
17:13<Supercheese>so would I
17:13<Supercheese>Someone said it's supposed to vary with aircraft speed
17:13<Supercheese>I don't believe that :P
17:13<Bad_Brett>me neither :P
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there is code that does that
17:13<Supercheese>well it doesn't work very well
17:13<Bad_Brett>hmm interesting
17:14<LordAro>I believe it is there, but not very obvious
17:14<LordAro>becomes more obvious if you have more height levels patch, iirc
17:15<Bad_Brett>in that case it might be possible to add road vehicles that can travel in rough terrain?
17:15<Bad_Brett>i guess the collision detection won't work but who cares?
17:15<Supercheese>Ghost trains
17:15<Supercheese>fly through buildings
17:15<Supercheese>Halloween .grf
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's most visible when a plane approaches a waiting loop and slows down there
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>then you see it lowering
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: planes already fly through buildings
17:17<Bad_Brett>intersting... got to chech it out
17:17<Supercheese>Eddi|zuHause: good point
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>unless you're playing SimCity 2000
17:17<Supercheese>Also, I have never seen panes do that
17:18<Supercheese>errr, not clip through buildings, I mean change height other than takeoff/landing
17:18-!-HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: there might be a video out there called "yexoair" or so
17:19<Bad_Brett>so if you set the speed to like 10 mph they "fly" at a low height?
17:20<LordAro>speaking of Yexo, where has he been? haven't seen him around for a while...
17:20-!-HerzogDeXtEr [] has joined #openttd
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>@seen Yexo
17:20<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 11 weeks, 0 days, 9 hours, 3 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
17:20<Supercheese>pfff hahahahaha
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, he's still here...
17:20*Supercheese can't stop laughing
17:21<frosch123>base_altitude += min(20 * (v->vcache.cached_max_speed / 200), 90);
17:21<frosch123>aircraft flying at 900 km-ish/h have maximum height
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>so there's a minimum of 90 pixels?
17:22<frosch123>PLANE_HOLDING_ALTITUDE = 150
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>or no, a maximum of 90
17:22<frosch123>it's 150 to 240 for planes
17:22<frosch123>helicopters are fixed at 184, independent of speed
17:22<Supercheese>Would be nice to have that newgrf-configurable
17:22<Supercheese>new prop
17:23<Supercheese>new prop for jets :D
17:23<Supercheese>(bad pun)
17:23<frosch123>wrt. more heightlevels it is more important to change it into a height over ground thingie
17:23<frosch123>rather than an absolute height thingie
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, but it shouldn't change for every ground level change
17:24<Bad_Brett>yes of course
17:24-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
17:24<frosch123>when i thought about that some time ago, i thought abuot making them ascend quickly
17:24<frosch123>and descent slowly
17:24<frosch123>i.e. ascending with tile slope, but descending one heightlevel per 10 tiles only
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: there are plenty discussions in the more heightlevels topic, i think
17:25<frosch123>likely, but that topic is so long that it is hard to find the interesting posts
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it ended up with a hysteresis-like height curve
17:25<frosch123>yeah, a hysteresis might also be a good idea
17:26<frosch123>only start descending if there are at least 2 heightlevels to descend or so
17:26<Bad_Brett>it would indeed be nice if you could set these parameters in nml
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember the exact step size that was taken
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably easier to find that in the code than in the thread, though :p
17:27<frosch123>i don't see why newgrfs would want to set this
17:27<Supercheese>Some slow aircraft may be specialized for high-altitude
17:28<frosch123>i mean ottd does silly thing like making planes flying north or east go at 10 pixels higher... to avoid collisions...
17:28<Supercheese>frosch123: that sounds.... realistic!
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like collisions would be visible on a 2-d-screen :p
17:29<Bad_Brett>frosch123: aircraft type vehicles could be used for others things... you could make birds (like the town cars AI)... you could make hovercrafts... and other things
17:29<frosch123>it just means that planes collide with planes flying 100 km-ish/h faster
17:29<Supercheese>although it's more of a "Fly at these altitudes N/E" rather than a fixed altitude
17:29<Supercheese>"S/W flies at (altitudes - 500)" or so
17:29<frosch123>Bad_Brett: we had a hovercraft patch
17:29<frosch123>but it was a ship
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: aren't the internal speed units like 8mph?
17:29*Supercheese can't recall specifics
17:29<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: no, that is the newgrf unit
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: or was that "fixed" and only kept for newgrf compatibility?
17:29<frosch123>ottd has only km-ish/h internally
17:30<frosch123>ottd converts it's own units to newgrf and traditional-station-rating units
17:30<frosch123>hmm, actually not true
17:30<frosch123>only planes were changed
17:31<frosch123>ships and rv still use 0.5 km-ish/h
17:33<Bad_Brett>anyway, i guess it would mean a lot of work... but if you could keep aircrafts at a ground level, the pathfinder could be used to create new exciting objects... for example, you could send forwarders to a forest without building roads
17:33<Supercheese>proper Hover Vehicles
17:33<Supercheese>"We don't need roads"
17:34-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
17:34<Supercheese>all technically possible as-is though
17:34<frosch123>Bad_Brett: you forgot that ottd is a transport game
17:34<frosch123>building infrastructure is the whole point of the game
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: maybe you want "offroad" vehicles instead ;)
17:35<frosch123>making vehicle not require infrastructure makes it pointless
17:35<Bad_Brett>well the same thing could be said about all aircrafts
17:35<frosch123>guess what why people don't like aircraft :)
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: but the pathfinder will go mad
17:35<frosch123>and ships
17:35*Supercheese likes all means of transport
17:36<Bad_Brett>i find ships quite interesting since the addition of rivers
17:36<Supercheese>I recall saying I'd try my hand at Star Trek-style transporters, the ultimate in no-infrastructure-required
17:36<frosch123>ships and aircraft have their niche in the game
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>every time i try aircraft i find them horribly inefficient
17:36<Supercheese>of course I've been too lazy to do it :P
17:36<frosch123>but you cannot play an entire game with them
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot manage airports to increase their efficiency... it's take it or leave it
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>then planes spend 90% of the time circling in the holding pattern and you have no way to optimize it
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>and when you try timetabling, you notice that there are too few loading bays on the airport
17:39<Supercheese>...and then someone makes a patch for ridiculously-huge airports
17:39-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>... which doesn't solve any problems at all, you can just throw more planes at it before it shows...
17:40<@Terkhen>good night
17:40<Supercheese>For drop-off-only, you can just build more airports, but how often do you only drop-off air cargo?
17:41<Supercheese>and you've got to get it from somewhere
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>once. i took oil from an oil rig by zeppelin, and landed it on a helidepot
17:41<Bad_Brett>if you could get a working pathfinder, offroad vechicles is not a bad idea really... it would be dumpers, forwarders, wagon trains (obviously)... building roads could be expensive but greatly increase the speed and lower the running cost... it wouldn't work with the unmodded game, but I think it would work rather well with newgrf's...
17:41<andythenorth>and there are noise limits or airport limits
17:41<andythenorth>offroad vehicles :P
17:42<Supercheese>disable that crap
17:42<andythenorth>there's an idea I've had 10 times
17:42<Supercheese>noise limits, nah
17:42<Bad_Brett>though i realise that coding that would be practically impossible :P
17:42<andythenorth>ice roads!
17:42<andythenorth>Bad_Brett: why wouldn't it work?
17:42<andythenorth>it's just like ships
17:42*Supercheese has ice in his object set
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: modifying the pathfinder is simple
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: but it gets very inefficient if almost all tiles get traversable
17:43<andythenorth>just do 'go in the general direction of x'
17:43<Bad_Brett>but... if a vechicle traveled at 2x the speed on roads
17:43<andythenorth>and hope you don't get a peninsula :P
17:43<andythenorth>'go anywhere' vehicles _might_ have some issues :P
17:44<Supercheese>modifying aircraft height would be easier
17:44<andythenorth>also...does it add to gameplay? o_O
17:44<Supercheese>new property, fly at XX height
17:44<Supercheese>if you want some eyecandy, code a bird as an aircraft, set it to fly very low
17:45<Supercheese>change a heliport to look like a building or something
17:45<Supercheese>have the birds fly between buildings
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "go anywhere" is planes, which have no pathfinder at all, they just go straight until they arrive. there can never be anything blocking them
17:45<Supercheese>Carrier pigeons
17:45<Supercheese>1 bag of mail
17:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: fair point
17:45<andythenorth>is it bed time?
17:45<Bad_Brett>new Supercheese grf?
17:45<Supercheese>there'd have to be a patch first ;)
17:46<andythenorth>can someone draw ships while I sleep, thanks
17:46<andythenorth>let me know when it's done
17:46-!-pandatrax [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:46<andythenorth>oooh Pikkas
17:46<Pikka>are there
17:46<andythenorth>hello pikkas
17:46<Pikka>goodnight andy
17:46-!-andythenorth is now known as pikkas
17:46<pikkas>bye bye bye Pikka
17:46-!-pikkas is now known as bedtime
17:47*bedtime has to go to bed for beauty sleep
17:47<bedtime>and to prepare for being kicked in the head at 05.45 by a 15 month old boy
17:47-!-bedtime is now known as andythebed
17:47<andythebed>Pikka: is your industry set done yet?
17:47<Pikka>pretty much
17:47<andythebed>good work that man
17:47<andythebed>have a medal
17:47-!-chillcore [] has joined #openttd
17:48<jonty-comp>why would you put a 15 month old boy in line with your head
17:48<jonty-comp>that's just bad planning
17:48<chillcore>hello all
17:48<andythebed>he is somewhat mobile
17:48<FLHerne>jonty-comp: Oh, same TV show?
17:48<andythebed>he starts out in a cot
17:49<chillcore>»» 23:14:55 < Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: there are plenty discussions in the more heightlevels topic, i think
17:49<andythebed>and in the morning he is kicking me in the head
17:49<chillcore> »» 23:15:17 < frosch123> likely, but that topic is so long that it is hard to find the interesting posts
17:49<andythebed>and my wife mentions something about not getting much sleep
17:49<jonty-comp>the solution to that is just to get a nice lid for said cot
17:49<andythebed>Pikka: is tomorrow a newgrf day?
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>chillcore: frosch123 doesn't read threads with more than 10 posts, we established that earlier :p
17:49<jonty-comp>FLHerne: whowhat
17:49<chillcore>I was just lurking ... have alook here ... ;)
17:49<Pikka>but we shall see :)
17:49<andythebed>we could delete more things
17:50<andythebed>then it will all soon be done
17:50<chillcore>- 10 hehe
17:50<FLHerne>jonty-comp: Nope, just random coincidence then...
17:50<oskari892>More height levels is definately a patch that should be pushed forward towards trunk :)
17:50<jonty-comp>today is full of odd coincidences
17:51<jonty-comp>i blame the pope
17:51<andythebed>a newgrf that just turns off some default vehicles? o_o
17:51<chillcore>Eddi|zuHause: FLHerne ... should not be much effort to update
17:51<andythebed>I blame meteors
17:51<chillcore>exuse me frosch123
17:51<FLHerne>chillcore: To update what?
17:52<FLHerne>Sorry, tired and non-context-aware :P
17:52<Supercheese>Hah, I even posted in that thread
17:52<frosch123>ah ,yeah, i should probably add that to my bookmarks then :)
17:52<Supercheese>saying basically the same thing :P
17:52<chillcore>that patch that is relevant to the the discussion I quoted just aliitle while ago FLHerne
17:53<jonty-comp>i believe i shall also go to bed, provided my housemate doesn't start snoring again
17:53<chillcore>I highlighted you by accident sorry
17:53<FLHerne>Oh, scrollback-reading will be required then :-)
17:54-!-andythebed [] has quit [Quit: andythebed]
17:55<FLHerne>MHL does seem easy to update, in fact
17:56<FLHerne>You seem to have accidentally highlighted me in a discussion I happen to find interesting :P
17:56<oskari892>I have an idea to BaNaNaS
17:57<oskari892>Could someone code "preview" button to that, so one could have a brief look at it from few screenshots or so?
17:57<oskari892>From various NewGRF:s
17:57<chillcore>Magic ... FLHerne ;)
17:58<FLHerne>Or possibly it was deliberate, and I'm suffering from a lack of sarcasm-awaeness as well as context?
17:59<Supercheese>currently the clickable URL does that, often linking to forum threads with screenshots
17:59<Supercheese>not an in-game screen viewer, but similar functionality
17:59<oskari892>Even more direct wayt with in-game screen viewer?
18:00<Supercheese>Well, someone could write A Patch for That™
18:00<Supercheese>the typical answer :P
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>oskari892: most often it's requested that heightmaps or scenarios show a preview
18:03<Pikka>oskari892: bananas is a content distribution system
18:03<Pikka>it is not in any way a content review, preview, or finding system
18:03<Pikka>and that's the way it should stay imo
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18:09<Zuu>Well, some days/weeks ago I realized another use case for click-on-string. Allow clicking on tags in the bananas window to add a tag to the search filter. However, I need to get it done first. :-)
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18:10<frosch123> <- Zuu: tags are not as useful as i hoped for
18:11<frosch123>i hoped to display the tags in a list, and then clicking on them would add/remove them from the filter
18:11<frosch123>but, the tags are mostly useless
18:12*Supercheese doesn't know what to do with tags
18:12<Supercheese>There are no guidelines
18:12<Zuu>They are quite useless indeed. Though a click thingy will at least not use any screen space.
18:13*Zuu wrote a guideline for AIs
18:13<frosch123>anyway, somewhat related... i am pondering to change the order gui
18:13<frosch123>to use icons instead of text
18:13<Zuu>It actually worked for quite some time.
18:13<frosch123>icons can be aligned in columns, so you can click on them to switch full load
18:13<frosch123>refit, stop location
18:13<frosch123>or in the future: reversing
18:14<Zuu>Noone did the same for the much larger NewGRF scene which from the beginning was harder to get a common standard. No doubt it is a mess with NewGRF tags.
18:14<frosch123>but the different order types (station/depot/conditional) would break the columns :s
18:14<frosch123>Zuu: for newgrfs we just search the whole description :)
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>bananas needs a tag cloud!!
18:16<@planetmaker>good idea frosch123
18:16<Zuu>Which have heightmap and 2048 written out in large size :-)
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the order gui needs some total restructuring
18:17<frosch123>yup, the last one is only 4 years ago :p
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>(and you're going to kill me if i come with shunting at this point :p)
18:17<frosch123>or "already" :p
18:17<Zuu>IIRC someone posted a icon proposal for the order GUI which was quite nice.
18:18<frosch123>i cannot remember any order related patch
18:18<Zuu>Now that we have non-hidden tooltips it may even be discoverable for new players.
18:18<frosch123>except for the refit-gui thingie
18:18<frosch123>or was it about selective loading?
18:18<frosch123>something with a big cargo list in the order
18:19<Zuu>It was probably only a graphical mockup.
18:19<Zuu>With icons for things like "stop near/middle/far" instead of using text for that.
18:20<Zuu>It was IIRC quite still the same GUI but with less text and icons instead.
18:20<frosch123> <- that one
18:20<frosch123>looks quite messy
18:21<Zuu>Thats not the one I have in my mind. (but my memory could be wrong too)
18:21<frosch123>hmm... what does the "ignore signals" button mean?
18:21<Zuu>All trains on that order will ignore signals until you toggle that button again?
18:22<frosch123>i believe it is the normal button from the vehicle gui, but moved to the order gui
18:22<Zuu>yeah, where it only make sense for non-shared orders.
18:22<frosch123>it's about moving "skip order", "goto depot" and "ignore signals" into one place
18:22<frosch123>but i don't quite agree with that reasoning :)
18:23<Zuu>Hmm, oh yes. With shared orders, the order window both show shared state but also vehicle specific state (current order).
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>"all trains ignore signals" sounds like a not very bright idea ;p
18:24<@planetmaker>on the contrary. very bright. fireball
18:24<Zuu>Maybe have a order-viewer show up that is vehicle specific. Then form that you open a order editor that doesn't contain any vehicle specific buttons or data.
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i think that "orders" need to be separated into "go to X" and "do Y when you get there"
18:24<frosch123> <- Zuu: i hope you do not mean that topic
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>and secondly, "orders" should be composed of "routes"
18:25<frosch123>i remember argueing about the completly non-comprehsensive icons back then
18:26<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i think i made fun of suborders in .dev recently
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. i set up once "from A to B you go via X,Y and Z (with timetable)", and then i give trains orders "go from A to B via route XYZ, and then to C via blah"
18:26<Supercheese>r10783, wow
18:26<Supercheese>forever ago
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: have you checked out the Timetable Improvement Patch?
18:27<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: which one is that?
18:27<Zuu>frosch123: not that topic
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the TIP one, fairly recently
18:27<frosch123>there are many timetable patches
18:27<frosch123>is it about separation?
18:27<frosch123>or about the exact schedule times with 24 hour clock?
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>it's about routes
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18:28<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't have 24h clock afair. that was ITiM
18:28<frosch123> <- another window
18:28<frosch123>also not what i have in mind
18:29<frosch123>i don't want a toolbar, i want info icons in the order rows
18:30<frosch123> <- lol, we should add gui skind to ottd :)
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>i mean concept-wise, you'd have to have an idea what orders should look like, and then think about how to efficiently represent them. not the other way around
18:31<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: ah, i remember skipping that post
18:32<frosch123>too long for someone not interested in timetables :)
18:32<frosch123>i am looking at the screenshot
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>i've not had a chance to test it
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>but the idea sounded interesting
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>and timetables are in desperate need of macromanaging functions
18:33<Zuu>I found a thread for implementing routes from 2008, but now I don't find it again. :-)
18:34<frosch123>anyway, essentially we have routes
18:34<frosch123>we just do not have the gui for it
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>a macromanaging function i would use could be "from A to B via X,Y,Z, send a train every 10 days for 30 days, then no train for 30 dais, repeat"
18:36-!-chester_ [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:36<oskari892>Eddi: Sounds nice
18:36<Zuu>Ah.. here we have it (resqued from browser history):
18:37-!-valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>and interleave this with "from A to B via (express), send no train for 50 days, send one train, send no train for 10 days, repeat"
18:37<Zuu>(not the order GUI, but the routes thingy which is probably not really routes)
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: that is rather about group management, isn't it?
18:38<@planetmaker>good night
18:38<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: yes
18:39<Zuu>they have some order connection, but it is probably more grouping than routes.
18:40<frosch123>Zuu: you restored a post from 2007 from browser history? :p
18:41<chillcore>good night planetmaker and everybody else.
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18:42<frosch123>Zuu: anyway, i did not find anything like a renewed orders gui
18:42<Zuu>Anyhow, the routes discussion remind me about my idea to have partial orders. Eg. each waypoint have a list of orders. Then when you tell a vehicle order to visit this waypoint, it will add an item in the order list that points to the waypoint and will insert a shared copy of that partial order list into the vehicle orders.
18:42<Zuu>frosch123: I tried to search for what I was thinking about, but couldn't find it. It was probably just a lose suggestion somewhere.
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18:43<Zuu>That post form my browser history was a post that I saw today when looking for the post that I was thinking about.
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>so you randomly browse threads from 5 years ago? :)
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18:44<frosch123>the search results do not display the date
18:45<frosch123>he... prissi started two topics about gui consistency
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>question asked in a bavarian beer tent: "would it, in retrospect, have been better to have given berlin to the russians?" - "no, i love the russians too much to burden them with that" :p
18:54<frosch123>hmm, the simutrans forums have really complicated member titles
18:54<frosch123>"Simitrans-Experimental project coordinator"
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19:01<oskari892>Eddi: So do you have shunting system in planning or... ? ^
19:02<oskari892>Regarding that GUI discussion up there :)
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>oskari892: i have plans for lots of things, but people keep telling me "that's too complicated, nobody will/can code that"
19:04<oskari892>Those people have wrong attitude
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>that may also be related to me thinking 3 steps further ahead than they do, and then i have problems explaining my thoughts to them :p
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19:07<oskari892>Somebody already did shunting btw...
19:07<oskari892>Don't know if that is proper
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>but afair he did not publish a patch
19:09<oskari892>It's sad that there's people who vanish from forums totally for years
19:11<oskari892>Such as one who did code Finnish Trainset, not releasing a NewGrf, just providing screenshots, but disappeared and now there's a year gone without single post from him...
19:12<oskari892>I wonder where he had gone? :P
19:14<oskari892>The same person which did Swedish Houses
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19:51<Superuser>hey guys
19:51<Superuser>so I've been thinking
19:51<Superuser>since I'm so amazing at what I do
19:52<Superuser>I think I should get a mention for my efforts in the next blog post
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19:52<Superuser>for the 1.31 release that is
19:52<Superuser>what do you think? I have literally changed about 2000 strings, I basically translated the whole thing by myself
19:52<Superuser>+ I have corrected several of the original English strings
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20:10<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly is it that you do again?
20:19<Superuser>translated to Greek
20:19<Superuser>but it was an intense effort
20:19<Superuser>plus, I helped improve all other translations by improving the English strings
20:20<Superuser>I actually have a few more changes to English strings I want to discuss, but I'm playing atm :)
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 16 00:00:50 2013