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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-16

---Logopened Sat Feb 16 00:00:50 2013
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00:40<Supercheese>3-day weekend, time for lots and lots of OTTD :D
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01:10<andythenorth>is it though?
01:12<Pikka>only on wednesdays
01:12<Pikka> wot larks
01:14<Supercheese>I've tried to wrangle running sounds before
01:14<Supercheese>isn't the easiest thing to do
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01:25<andythenorth>ok minds, ship speed:
01:26<andythenorth>so RL ferries and fishing boats and crap do about 11 knots (13mph)
01:26<andythenorth>which I cheat up to about 16mph
01:26<andythenorth>but I don't cheat up the faster ships
01:27<andythenorth>so RL hovercraft can cruise at 46mph, and so does the FISH one
01:27<andythenorth>shall I just cheat them all up same amount?
01:27<Supercheese>just have the hovercraft go faster than 46 mph when empty
01:27<Supercheese>46 when loaded
01:27<Supercheese>like some other FISH ships
01:28<Supercheese>Keep RL-speeds the loaded-speeds-ish
01:28<andythenorth>oh it probably does that already anyway
01:28<Supercheese>and bump them up higher than RL when empty
01:28<Supercheese>oh, already does that?
01:28<Pikka>hovercrafts are silly
01:28<Supercheese>s'all good then
01:28<andythenorth>yeah, they do that automagically I think
01:28<andythenorth>owing to some code I wrote
01:28<andythenorth>in Squid anyway
01:28<andythenorth>pikkacrafts would be silly
01:28<andythenorth>hovercheese too
01:29<andythenorth>Pikka: there is only one, and it's only a very little one. Just a morsel.
01:29<andythenorth>can't you overlook it? :(
01:29<Pikka>that freight one
01:29<Pikka>I guess it is not so bad
01:29<Supercheese>other fast ships are catamarans or hydrofoils
01:29<Supercheese>well, other than the silly Bakewell 300
01:30<andythenorth>Pikka: on MP servers, it's certainly nice to see everyone go fishing with a hovercraft
01:30<Supercheese>go fishing with seaplanes
01:30<Supercheese>flying FISH
01:31<Supercheese>our US Zeppelins had nasty habits of going fishing
01:31<Supercheese>happened twice
01:31<andythenorth>should we just stop?
01:31<andythenorth>all this?
01:31<andythenorth>and join V453000 with the NUTS thing?
01:31<Supercheese>poor Admiral Moffet didn't survive the fishing trip :(
01:34<Pikka>almost certainly
01:35<Pikka>actually, you can go fishing with a zellepin, can't you?
01:35<Pikka>with the skylift at least
01:37<andythenorth>floating crane
01:38<andythenorth>could go fishing with that
01:38*andythenorth is on a ship broker site
01:38<Pikka>cheap at half the price
01:40<andythenorth>for less than $1m we can get 268' cargo ship
01:40<andythenorth>ice capable
01:41<andythenorth>we could spend the earnings from newgrf on that?
01:42<andythenorth>ho here's one of the small coasters from FISH
01:42<andythenorth>which I made up
01:42<andythenorth>nice to find the photo later
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01:57<Pikka>a 31-year-old 268' cargo ship :)
01:59<andythenorth>younger than me
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02:00<Pikka>same age as me
02:00<andythenorth>shall I just multiply all RL speeds by 1.5 then?
02:00<andythenorth>and be done with it?
02:00<Pikka>I still think you should have a parameter
02:01<Pikka>maybe make 1.5 the default
02:01<Pikka>with 1 and 2 as options
02:01<andythenorth>1 is masochistic :P
02:03<Pikka> this one's in queensland
02:03<Pikka>apparently it is the "Largest small cruise Cat built in last 10 years"
02:03<Pikka>I guess the next model up is the "smallest large cruise cat"
02:06<andythenorth>parameter then
02:08<Pikka>and then adjust running costs accordingly, if you can be bothered ;)
02:09<andythenorth>let's see
02:16<andythenorth>how does that action 14 thing work :P
02:25<andythenorth>yeah that will all be fine
02:25<andythenorth>I'll have to just write some nml :P
02:26<@peter1138>aw, krinn was update that i moderizzled his post
02:33<andythenorth>for shame
02:35<andythenorth>should I invest? o_O
02:35<andythenorth>it's not pixels
02:37<@peter1138>looked a bit small in the video i saw
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03:16-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
03:22<Pikka>hello Alberth
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03:39<andythenorth>action 14, how I love thy caching
03:41*Alberth ponders about how to fix the custom_tags file for translating
03:41*andythenorth ponders removing 'speed factor: 0'
03:41<andythenorth>0 is not a useful multiplier for gameplay purposes :P
03:42<@Alberth>not very much indeed :)
03:42<@Alberth>rename to 'speed index' :D
03:42<andythenorth>that's actually the right thing to do
03:43<@Alberth>what's the purpose of custom_tags in the first place? doesn't it belong in lang/* files?
03:44<@planetmaker>Alberth, e.g. you can define {GRF_NAME} My fancy name and then use {GRF_NAME} in strings
03:45<@Alberth>yeah, but why not in a lang file?
03:45<@planetmaker>universal for all languages?
03:46<@Alberth>lang/english.lng:5:STR_GRF_NAME :{TITLE} <-- like so?
03:46<andythenorth>so that's the intended solution to 'not all strings should be translated'? o_O
03:46<@planetmaker>as it's treated different from a general string, universal for all files, syntactically like a tag. Like you show, yes
03:46<@planetmaker>Alberth, I use it e.g. for version display
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03:47<@Alberth>I mean why not lang/english.lng:5:STR_GRF_NAME : My fancy name
03:47<@planetmaker>and then the GRF_NAME reads like STR_GRF_NAME: {TITLE} {VERSION} (translated title, if any)
03:47<@planetmaker>I can programmatically write {VERSION} as function of hg output w/o touching lang file
03:48<@Alberth>it's messy, imho
03:49<@Alberth>add one more tag in custom_tags, and you have the problem of modifying that file as well
03:49<@planetmaker>how do you get the repo version in a lang file?
03:49<@Alberth>imho you don't
03:49<@planetmaker>I write custom_tags anew everytime. I only put version, untranslatable name there
03:50<@Alberth>(assuming you don't means # $Id$ :)
03:50<@planetmaker>exactly. But how get that in the title then?
03:50<@planetmaker>I mean my version like r245 or 0.5.2
03:50<@Alberth>imho a string literal in the program
03:50<@planetmaker>that's nothing a translator can do
03:50<@Alberth>r245 needs translating?
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03:50<@planetmaker>no, of course not
03:51<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
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03:51<Wolf01>hello :D
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03:51<@Alberth>in that case you've lost me now
03:52<@planetmaker>A translator cannot / shall not mess with version strings. That changes much more often than strings
03:52<@Alberth>I'd think you should be able to write "this is blah blah blah version xyz" as literal in the program
03:52<@planetmaker>so I define that whereever a translator has no say
03:52<@Alberth>or in CPP speak "...." ## VERSION
03:52<@planetmaker>I write STR_GRF_NAME: Title blah {VERSION}
03:52<@planetmaker>not sure I can define mixed fixed strings and translated ones
03:53<@Alberth>not as string literal in a *.nml file?
03:53<@planetmaker>custom_tags is the literal strings for translations which you ask for
03:53<@planetmaker>i.e. if you need a literal string in other strings: then custom_tags is for you
03:54<@Alberth>a string literal is for me a double quote character, zero or more other stuff, and a closing double quote character
03:54<andythenorth>speed parameter works for ships
03:55<andythenorth>better put some strings in for it :P
03:56<@planetmaker>Alberth, from a translation POV custom_tags is not translatable
03:57<@Alberth>but I need its tags, or I'll throw X:{BLA} out the window for unknown tags
03:58<@Alberth>but every project has its own tags, and they change overt time :( :(
03:58<@planetmaker>yes, that's true... you won't even find that file in any of my repos
03:59<@Alberth>luckily, I don't care what's in your repo :)
03:59<@planetmaker>well. But what's in the custom_tags?
04:00<@planetmaker>the idea behind it was indeed for a string like {VERSION} or whatever the author needs to be easily used in strings
04:01<@Alberth>I can see two options:
04:01<@Alberth>a) I allow any {XYZ} without bothering to check it, which basically means translators can add any crap, and it will all drop into your repo
04:01<@Alberth>b) I only allow tags I know, which means I need a list of them. How you get that list is up to the author of the project, imho
04:03<@planetmaker>option (a) sounds very unappealing
04:03<@Alberth>it is, imho, for proof, see the mess of WT3
04:03<@planetmaker>option (b) needs some interface definition
04:03<@planetmaker>WT3 allows any?
04:03<@Alberth>no, but it has holes
04:04<@Alberth>eg {G ..} indexes are not checked iirc
04:04<@planetmaker>oi. not too nice :-)
04:05<@Alberth>just look up the fixes made by rb and frsh mostly :)
04:07<@Alberth>b) has the huge problem that if you change the list (in particular delete some item), all translations become invalid for every use of that removed tag
04:07<andythenorth>Pikka innit
04:08<@planetmaker>of course. But that's the problem of the dev. If we change a string it also becomes invalid in all translations
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04:09<andythenorth>66% 100% 133%
04:09<@Alberth>good to know the speed of drying paint :)
04:09<joey8>has anyone got time to help a non techie try to install 1.3 over the top of 1.1 on ubuntu please. thank you
04:09<@Alberth>don't try to install stuff on top of other stuff
04:09<joey8>oh ok - shall i uninstall 1.1 first?
04:10<@Alberth>1.1 comes from the package manager?
04:11<@Alberth>if so, then likely it also has the openttd data part attached to it, which you need again for 1.3
04:11<@Alberth>the package manager does not have 1.3 yet, I guess
04:11<@Alberth>so you need to do a manual install of the latter
04:11<joey8>no it doesnt and to a complete klutz (me) i am having difficulties
04:11<@Alberth>imho the best solution is to install 1.3 next to 1.1
04:12<joey8>oh ok
04:13<@Alberth>planetmaker: unfortunately that breaks my concept of translation; I had it dependant on the base language string, but now it depends on 1 file, and 1 string
04:13<@Alberth>joey8: the simplest way is to download the generic linux binary
04:13<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps there are also packages for your linux version, you should have a look
04:14<@planetmaker>Alberth, you could - for that purpose - likely consider custom_tags.txt part of the base language. A part which is untranslatable
04:14<joey8>Alberth➤ ok i will look thank you for your help
04:14<@Alberth>planetmaker: yes, but is a *file*, not one string
04:15<Eddi|zuHause><Alberth> a string literal is for me a double quote character, zero or more other stuff, and a closing double quote character <-- afair those were deliberately not allowed to force people to use the string/lang-file system right from the start
04:15<@Alberth>ie you can do {X} {Y}
04:15<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: oh? grfid : "AB\02\03"; :)
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04:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes, because that's not an actual string :)
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>i mean in places that require a (displayable) string, those are not allowed
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>not that the language doesn't have them
04:17<andythenorth>I need a string to describe what ship speed param does
04:17<andythenorth>cba to think
04:17<@planetmaker>This string allows to put your ships on steroids
04:18<andythenorth>or I could just leave it blank, as it's obvious
04:18<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: in general that does make sense, ie the unicode stuff is too complicated for many
04:20<@Alberth>andythenorth: "rate at which the ships splits water molecules from each other to make room for itself"
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04:20<@planetmaker>if they start splitting the molecules... wooo!
04:21<@Alberth>then it'd run on steroids :)
04:21<@planetmaker>hydro-molecular propulsion :-)
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>just apply an electrical charge :)
04:21<@planetmaker>sounds like future-tech :-)
04:21<@planetmaker>^^ andy
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>andy doesn't do futures :p
04:21<@planetmaker>finally some future ships :D
04:22<@Alberth>in the future we'll live under water :)
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>when you are dutch, that is certainly a possibility :p
04:24<@Terkhen>good morning
04:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I do historical future
04:25<andythenorth>which is why everyone has hovercraft
04:25<@planetmaker>hello Terkhen
04:26<Eddi|zuHause>so then why don't you have ekranoplans :)
04:26<andythenorth>they're insane
04:26<andythenorth>is one
04:27<andythenorth>I should add these
04:27<andythenorth>150t, 63 knots
04:27<andythenorth>~72 mph
04:27<@planetmaker>knots is also mph. just other miles ;-)
04:28<Supercheese>"55 knots if sustained"
04:28<andythenorth>Supercheese: never pay attention to sustained ratings
04:28<andythenorth>that is not good for gameplay :P
04:29<andythenorth>it is an enemy of MOAR
04:29<@Alberth>andy needs 'cheat' settings :)
04:29<Supercheese>He just did, with the parameter
04:29<@Alberth>yeah, but 133% does not give him a concrete speed :p
04:30<Pikka>woo, travelling at the speed of concrete!
04:30<@Alberth>hmm, 'actual' is better?
04:31<Pikka>concrete is fine, I suppose!
04:32<andythenorth>you can make concrete boats
04:32<andythenorth>I once had a university lecturer who did that
04:32<andythenorth>then I quit
04:32<andythenorth>concrete is not exciting
04:32<Pikka>because of?
04:32<Pikka>isn't it?
04:32<andythenorth>it has exciting uses
04:32<Pikka>what would you rather make boats out of?
04:32<andythenorth>and it's exciting if you fall in it
04:34<Supercheese>Good lord, 1024x1024 maps are enormous
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04:35<Pikka>37s aren't as sexy as F units
04:35<Pikka>how sad
04:43<Supercheese>valete omnes
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04:45<Pikka>does she?
04:49<Pikka>how rare
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05:19<andythenorth>Pikka: cut a 37 in half, and make b units too
05:19<andythenorth>then it's about the same
05:19<andythenorth>more fake things
05:19<Pikka>it's smaller, so it's harder to draw nice
05:20<Pikka>and all-over blue with yellow noses looks a bit ordinary
05:21<andythenorth>do the police one
05:22<andythenorth>musical theatre
05:22<Pikka>savoy opera
05:27<@Alberth>shopping for a new car to drive to work andy ?
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05:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so you want futurism?
05:42<jonty-comp>i always wanted to make some sort of steampunk/retro-futurist set for ttd
05:43<Pikka>"This American concept shows the ultimate helicopter:
05:43<Pikka>(at least the largest we've seen drawn on paper)"
05:43<Pikka>whoever wrote that obviously has no idea how big real helicopters get, the drawing is of something chinook sized :)
05:43<Flygon>jonty-comp: Sky Captain and the World of Transport Tycooning
05:44<jonty-comp>something like that :D
05:44<jonty-comp>although god what a terrible film that was
05:47<Flygon>I loved that world
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05:52<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i ever watched that
06:09<Flygon>Er, movie, not world
06:10<Flygon>Eddi: It's... interesting
06:10<Flygon>It works for some people, but not for others
06:10<Flygon>It's a homage to basically every single... ... thing, pre-1950
06:10<Flygon>Prodominantly among the style of Dieselpunk
06:12<andythenorth>zellepin trucks
06:12<andythenorth>zellepin ships
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: only that the Zeppelin NT is already dead
06:13<andythenorth>apparently :(
06:13<andythenorth>US military Skylifter is not though
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>i guess the company was totally bloated and just imploded before they could get a working prototype out
06:14<jonty-comp>i wonder if someone has made a V-22 Osprey for TTD
06:14<Flygon>Zeppelin NT lacked much practical purpose, unfortunately
06:15<jonty-comp>if not, then i have found what to do with my morning
06:15<andythenorth>they just cancelled the LEMV
06:15<andythenorth>2 days ago
06:15<__ln__>andythenorth: i took this photo some years ago:
06:15<jonty-comp>but it looked like a bottom :(
06:17<@peter1138>hmm, simuscape unreachable?
06:18<Flygon>I'm astounded they didn't sell off the design to private investors, if they canned it
06:18<Flygon>A private company could have interesting things to do with a supermassive Airship
06:18<Flygon>Specifically: Tourism
06:19<Flygon>Want to go on a trip around the world... vertically?
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>"cruse flight tour: 2 weeks across the USA"?
06:20<jonty-comp>peter1138: inb4 ddos
06:20<NGC3982>It's a blimp!
06:21<andythenorth>peter1138: seems to be :(
06:23<Flygon>I foresee freight being a good use
06:24<Flygon>Also, and this is the same for any Airship
06:24<Flygon>Safe transportation for oil rigs
06:25<Pikka>jonty-comp, you can probably delete that thread now :)
06:27<andythenorth>it's done
06:27<Flygon>Eddi: I'd rather a cruise flight from New York to Tokyo
06:29<Flygon>See the sights of the United Kingdom, to Europe (eg. France, Germany, Switzerland), have Americans crapping their dacks over the Middle East, cruise over India, ...yadayada, something about too much bloody smog in China, and finally land in the technological paradise of Tokyo
06:29<Flygon>Travel 50km out, and experience the wonders of Japanese Fax Machines
06:30<Flygon>Going from New York to Tokyo via Seattle would present you the wonders of trees
06:31<Flygon>Lots. And lots. And lots. Of Trees.
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>or via sibiria?
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>avoids the whole middle east thingie :p
06:34<Flygon>Yes, but for an efficient route
06:34<Flygon>Problem is
06:34<Flygon>Both Siberia and Middle East are bleak
06:34<Flygon>The point of the tour is to give very interesting sights
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>but isn't one point about cruises that you end up where you started?
06:34<Flygon>Assuming the Chinese airforce cooperated and allowed nice looking views...
06:35<Flygon>He's right
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to go from A to B, you take the plane, if you want to have a nice time, you want to be home after a week or two
06:39<jonty-comp>so put parachutes on the airship
06:39<jonty-comp>then when you're floating over your hometown, you just jump out
06:39<Flygon>Eddi: How about this, from Tokyo to Hawaii, to San Fran, to NY
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>note that in each of these places you need a location to land so the people can spend a day in the town
06:42<Flygon>You're screwed in Japan, then
06:42<Flygon>There's nowhere in Tok-
06:42<Flygon>I'm stupid
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06:43<Flygon>One of the advantages of Blimps is the theoretical possibility of an above-air passenger disembarkment...
06:43<@Rubidium>a day in Tokyo? Are you trying to do the Europe in 7 days kind of thing?
06:43<@Rubidium>Flygon: there's plenty of places where a blimp can land in Tokyo
06:44<Flygon>A 1500 meter one?
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>one that needs 300m runway?
06:44<Flygon>If you're gonna be a cruise ship, gotta do it in massive style
06:44<Flygon>I'm not sure there's anywhere within 30-50km of the CBD that could handle a blimp LANDING that's so big
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06:46<@Rubidium>the big (national-ish) airport is only 20 km away
06:46<Flygon>Could that handle a 1500m long blimp?
06:46<@Rubidium>I see no reason why it can't
06:47<@Rubidium>it's completely man-made land, so a place for a 1500m blimp can be made as well
06:47<Flygon>Either way, easy to land the in Australia :p
06:47<Flygon>Except Tullamarine.
06:47<Flygon>Er, wait, stupid statement
06:47<Flygon>Plenty of unused ground, and is a good helidepot...
06:48<@Rubidium>alternatively... the blimp could land on water
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure every place that you actually WANT to go to in australia is equally crowded as europe...
06:48<Flygon>That's a good idea, rough weather gives concerns though
06:48<Flygon>Eddi: Look up the urban density of Melbourne and Sydney
06:48<Flygon>It pales compared to Paris, London, Warsaw...
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: so the houses are smaller, there still won't be any large enough spaces without houses
06:49<Flygon>Melbourne's urban sprawl is stupidly high in the East...
06:49<Flygon>But in the West?:
06:50<Flygon>I can name one airport that could be trivially expanded for supermassive airships, and also be linked to a local fast train line
06:50<Flygon>Presuming they electrified it, so that 200-230km/h actually becomes practical >_>
06:50<Flygon>Current Diesels lack the acceleration
06:51<@Rubidium>Montreal Mirabel?
06:51<Flygon>Montreal Mirabel?
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that is in australia :p
06:51<Flygon>It isn't
06:52<Flygon>I think Supermassive airships have good freight and passenger transport
06:52<Flygon>Specifically, mining
06:52<@Rubidium>you know those things become massive wind catchers, right?
06:53<Flygon>True, and they'd be rigid...
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>of course they'd be rigid, they're not hot air balloons
06:53<Flygon>Well, you can make nonrigid airships
06:54<Flygon>But they're not as good
06:54<Flygon>And transporting coal using airships is kinda stupid
06:54<Flygon>Easier to use ships
06:54<Flygon>I think it has some practical use for more inland materials, though, eg. uranium
06:54<@Rubidium>Flygon: Mirabal airport was envisioned as a 100.000 acres (40.000 ha), currently it's 17.000 acres which includes plenty of room for expansion
06:55<Flygon>Rubidium: With airships, AUSTRALIA is an airport :P
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06:56<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure berlin tempelhof would be a nice place for large airships :p
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>nice empty space with no use, in the middle of the city
06:57<Flygon>I know it's an injoke, but I don't get it :(
06:57<Flygon>Sounds like saying Frankston is the worlds largest prison, though
06:58<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: Berlin Brandenburg would be a nice place as well for the coming decade
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07:00<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: berlin used to have 3 airports. two in west and one in east. then they decided they want to have one big airport and close down the two others, the smallest one, Tempelhof, was closed like 10 years ago already, the larger one, Tegel, was supposed to be closed last year together with the opening of the really large one near the old third airport, Schönefeld. but then they totally failed to open that in time
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>Schönefeld is directly outside berlin's borders
07:01<Flygon>Melbourne has at least 3 airports
07:01<Flygon>Essendon, Tullamarine, and Avalon (which is closer to Geelong)
07:02<Flygon>But Essendon is used for only specific flights, Tullamarine is the big one
07:03<Flygon>...the Liberal Government wants to built ANOTHER airport... instead of building trainlines to Tulla OR Avalon >_>
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: the actual scandal is that everything was prepared, and then like a month before opening they said "ugh... i guess we won't make it, we need at least another half year", and then they said "ugh, another year may be more realistic" and they ended up with "i guess we have no clue when we can make it"
07:03<Flygon>How Australian of Germany
07:06<Pikka>frosch123, not necessarily "looping", but it would be nice to have the interval between sound effects be regular. :)
07:07<frosch123>you won't get them perfectly regular
07:07<frosch123>sound playback is a realtime thing
07:07<frosch123>ottd is not
07:07<frosch123>esp. with lots of vehicles
07:08<Pikka>I may just have to deal with it then, as I did in the past. :) the "pattern" seems odd though.
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>how is it that cats always occupy the space you want to occupy?
07:10<Pikka>like there's a counter which is overflowing...
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>if i want to go to bet, they lie on the bed, if i want to sit on the chair, they lie on the chair, if i want to get dressed they lie on the clothes, ... :p
07:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: whatever space I occupy, babies want me out of it, for one reason or another
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>if i want to go down the stairs, they are on the step directly below, for every step
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>i think Schrödinger never observed the right quantum effects with his cat
07:13<andythenorth>I just had to move off the sofa
07:13<andythenorth>so the toddler can watch tv
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>just record the show, cut out the commercials, and he will watch TV for 40% shorter time :)
07:15<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: just sit on them; they should be able to learn it
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>postulate: "cats don't occupy any space until you try to move"
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>"then they occupy exactly the space that you want to move to"
07:17<andythenorth>there's probably a game idea in it
07:17<jonty-comp>don't blink
07:17<andythenorth>reminds me of old BBC micro games
07:19<andythenorth>FISH has info about propulsion type of the ship
07:19<andythenorth>is that worth bothering with?
07:20<Pikka>I'm not even putting info about the propulsion type of my trains any more :)
07:20*Pikka bedtime
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07:22<andythenorth>I kind of like the propulsion info
07:22<andythenorth>but I have boats with 100 year model life
07:22<andythenorth>propelled by: steam, compound steam, diesel, waterjet
07:22<andythenorth>changing the string is faff
07:24<andythenorth>going going
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>there was recently a TV show who mocked around monopoly replacing the flat-iron piece with a cat, that now the flat-iron tries to become as popular as cats on the internet. and one of the videos they parodized was the "don't blink cat" :(
07:27<andythenorth>I wish newgrf lang was a database :P
07:27<andythenorth>dropping a string is painful
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just introduce it as a new model with different running costs?
07:27<andythenorth>dropping 10 strings is extra painful
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: sed/awk?
07:28<andythenorth>requires andythenorth to be more clever
07:28<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25005 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/gaelic.txt (2013-02-16 12:28:45 UTC)
07:28<@DorpsGek>-Add: Scottish Gaelic
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>"sed -i /STR_BLAH/d" or something
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>i'd have to look up the exact thing
07:30<andythenorth>one day I'll learn sed
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07:30<andythenorth>I figure not doing that is wasting a lot of my time :P
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>just put the command into a "" file :)
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07:33<@Alberth>hello again
07:34<@Alberth>sort of, the base system is up again :)
07:35<@Alberth>I am sure I am still missing lots of packages :)
07:40<andythenorth>nmlc can use a different lang folder?
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably a parameter
07:42<andythenorth>it is
07:43<andythenorth>the FISH makefile appears to be an nfo one
07:43<andythenorth>works with nml
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>i was under the impression the makefile was a plugin-style system
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07:50<andythenorth>pl*netmaker would know :)
07:50<andythenorth>I just am glad that it works
07:52<@planetmaker>yes... and no. I've written and re-written makefile(s) so often... it's hard to say
07:52<@planetmaker>depends on which you actually got :D
07:52<jonty-comp>nice post there planetmaker
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>why does the +5V sensor say +2.98V?
07:53<jonty-comp>i totally forgot the openttd forum was tt-forums :p
07:53<@planetmaker>within specs?
07:53<@planetmaker>different ground?
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>"intrusion0: ALARM"... soso...
07:58<@Alberth>a burglar in your computer!!!
07:59<andythenorth>the extra info about capacity is ugly
07:59<andythenorth>(end of the buy menu)
08:00<@planetmaker>I think it doesn't matter exactly, if capacity of other cargos is in the range of the default one
08:01<andythenorth>certainly there's no point repeating the pax capacity if pax is default cargo
08:02<@planetmaker>but hard to know the default cargo
08:03<andythenorth>it's a property in the config
08:04<andythenorth>if some industry grf removes pax, well meh :)
08:05<@planetmaker>yes, that's why :-)
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08:09<andythenorth>I want a nice way to work out the parent class of an entity from its subclass
08:10<andythenorth>i.e. I know it's a fast_ferry, ferry, or whatever
08:10<andythenorth>in python
08:10<andythenorth>I could do a dict of horrible mappings
08:10<andythenorth>ach I'll do that, it's simplest
08:12<frosch123>144 tons of suspicious lasagne found :)
08:13<frosch123>i am surprised how many horses are around
08:13<jonty-comp>i thought that
08:13<jonty-comp>surely there aren't that many horses for this whole thing to be viable
08:15<@Rubidium>frosch123: all those 8 year old girls wanting and getting a pony, but once they are like 16 they want to get rid of them
08:16<@planetmaker>if lasagne contains 10% meat... it's 14 tons of meat. And even that is much meat content and if 100% of the meat is horse
08:16<frosch123>so it's andy's fault
08:17<@Rubidium>also... it'll be 144 tons of probably mislabeled lasagna
08:24<andythenorth>fish r1k getting close
08:29<V453000>didnt fish get eaten? :P
08:30<@Alberth>it wiggled its way out of it :)
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>have you ever met a girl that actually GOT a pony?
08:30<@planetmaker>my sister. But those are full-grown horses
08:31<frosch123>i am not sure about pony/horse
08:31<@planetmaker>and she got them at her wedding
08:31<frosch123>but yes, i have met several girls with horses
08:31<@planetmaker>but indeed ^
08:32<frosch123>i think those girls i think of got their horse like other youth get a moped
08:32<frosch123>with 16 or 18 or so
08:33<@planetmaker>yes, some of my friends had some back then, too
08:33<@planetmaker>gotta live in the country side ;-)
08:33<frosch123>otoh the girls at age 8 who team up with their friends to save a few euros every week from their pocket money... they usually do not end up with horses :)
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>i just had a pizza with horse-salami and horse-mushrooms, anyway...
08:34<@planetmaker>yes, tasty
08:34<frosch123>horse-mushrooms :)
08:34<@planetmaker>iew... those horses won't be tasty anymore then :D
08:35<frosch123>apparently they are called sheep-mushrooms in german :p
08:36<andythenorth>V453000: fish ate squid instead
08:36<frosch123>there is always a bigger fish
08:36<andythenorth>Squid includes trawlers
08:37<andythenorth>I was going to give them 30t of fish cargo in holds, or 15t or so of any cargo on deck
08:37<andythenorth>dunno if that's good
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>just make a normal ship and have them show up as fish trawlers if refitted to fish (trawler) subtype
08:38<andythenorth>subtypes :)
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>subtypes so it won't be used with normal autorefit
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09:50<Markk>Good day everone.
09:50<Kylar>good day
09:50<Markk>How do you say: "I have written to you on Facebook chat, can you please check it out?" in German?
09:50<Kylar>go:google translate
09:51<Markk>I could of course use Google Translate, but that wouldn't be especially grammatically correct.
09:51<Markk>I'm afraid.
09:52<Kylar>grammar is pretty much consistent in all languages
09:52<Kylar>a comma is a comma, etc
09:52<@Alberth>the chat language was no problem, but this message is?
09:53<Kylar>im confused lol
09:53<@Alberth>me too :)
09:55<Kylar>too early for beer?
09:56<@Alberth>if you need to drive today, it is probably :)
09:57<Kylar>I dont hold a licence so I'm OK lol
09:57<Kylar>I have my fella to act as chauffeur
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09:59<@Alberth> I just walk :p
09:59<Markk>I have a flu atm.
09:59<Markk>So my head is not really clear.
09:59<Kylar>I live on the top of a mountain in the middle of Spain, I aint walking anywhere
10:00<Markk>Just jump down, a lot quicker.
10:00<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: Do you fancy helping me? :)
10:00<Kylar>Lots of fluids for you then Markk
10:00<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: I know that you're a nice fellow.
10:05<Markk>Kylar: Yes, I've taken a double dosage of acetylsalicylic acid (or aspirin as many countries call it), 1 gram of paracetamol (or as the yankees calls it: acetaminophen), I've drank quite a lot of water as well (the form of acetylsalicylic acid I took is fizzies, the name is Treo), and then I took some diclofenac as a gel and applied to my neck and shoulders.
10:05<Markk>Also some muscle relaxant and a bit stronger pain killer that I have prescriped.
10:06<Markk>So I'm starting to feel a bit normal.
10:06<Markk>I really, really, want to be normal today.
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>you probably shouldn't be doing german in this state :p
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>so what have you come up with so far?
10:08<Kylar>Markk, you are aware that you can take paracetamol and ibuprofen together don't you
10:08<Markk>Kylar: Yes, I know.
10:08<Kylar>ibuprofen is quite good with the flu
10:08<Markk>I didn't take any ibuprofen though.
10:08<Markk>Only aspirin.
10:08<Markk>Both are NSAIDs.
10:09<Markk>And paracetamol isn't a NSAID.
10:09<Kylar>as it's an anti inflam it will take the swelling off the muscle
10:09<Kylar>also warm lemonade with whisky
10:10<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: But anyway, how do you say "can you please check X, because I've written a message there for you." in German?
10:11<Kylar>booze and meds, fabulous darling!
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: you do the words and i help you arrange them in the right way, deal? :)
10:12<Kylar>i could do with someone doing that for me with spanish!
10:13<Markk>Kylar: Don't really like alcohol like that.
10:13<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: hm
10:13<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: So I shall find the german words for it any you help me to correct the grammar?
10:14<Kylar>get yourself a cheap bottle of whiskey and have a few hot toddies.
10:14<Markk>Not like I can buy whiskey at this hour.
10:15<Kylar>grammar is grammar regardless, all languages have commas, apostrophes, full stops etc. They generally are placed the same as English
10:15<Kylar>and what time is it Markk
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>why would there be a time limit for buxing whiskey?
10:16<Markk>04:16 pm
10:16<Kylar>it's after 12!
10:17<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: "Können Sie bitte eine Nachricht, dass ich für dich schrieb bei Facebook?"
10:17<Markk>Kylar, Eddi|zuHause:
10:17<Markk>Read that article.
10:17<Kylar>mmm whiskey
10:17<Markk>Then you'll understand.
10:18<Kylar>ahhh didnt reallise you were in sweden
10:18<Kylar>I actually want to return
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: step 1) i'd reverse those two parts, first say what you did, then what the other person should do.
10:18<Markk>I have some liqour in the fridge though.
10:19<Kylar>what is it?
10:19<__ln__>it's a closet which stays cold and keeps food fresh.
10:19<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: This was the meaning that I translated: "Can you please check a message that I wrote for you on Facebook?"
10:20<Markk>__ln__: :D
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: yes, but i think it's bad style
10:20<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: This was the first part I translated: "can you please check the Facebook, because I've written a message there for you"
10:20<Markk>""können Sie überprüfen Sie bitte die Facebook, weil ich dort eine Nachricht für Sie geschrieben habe
10:20*NGC3982 invades finland.
10:21<Kylar>I want to invade one of the OTT servers but the connection keeps dropping :(
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>Kylar: the map is too big?
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>Kylar: there is a timelimit for downloading the map, and then a time limit for catching up with the server
10:23<Kylar>it's a pain in the ass
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10:24<Kylar>I'm going to leave it for now - I think windows is downloading updates, so it's taking up a fair whack of my bandwidth
10:26<Kylar>how do you start a multiplayer game?
10:27<frosch123>you click multiplayer
10:28<Kylar>sorry, I meant host a multiplayer game
10:28<@Alberth>you click multiplayer :)
10:29<Kylar>OK! No need to be smart arses
10:29<Kylar>cheers frosch
10:30<frosch123>not sure whether the info is complete you might also need:
10:30<@DorpsGek>frosch123: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
10:30<@Alberth>yeah, port forwarding is always a mess to set up
10:31<frosch123>just play only lan :p
10:31<jonty-comp>can't you make bananas just download over http? then that's one less port
10:31<Kylar>I'm not quite that good on the PC lol. I'll have a play with it and see what I can do
10:31<jonty-comp>although i'm sure such has been discussed before
10:32<frosch123>jonty-comp: it uses http for some stuff, but some stuff cannot be made available via http
10:32<Kylar>When my fellas stopped streaming youtubes entire video archive
10:37<Kylar>hes a bleeding nightmare when hes on youtube, you'd think he was downloading the entire internet
10:39<Kylar>right, im gonna make a move need a bath
10:39<Kylar>cyas later
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11:22<andythenorth>I've banned Fish cargo from most of the ferries
11:22<andythenorth>because going fishing with ferries is a silly
11:26<andythenorth>petrol on ferries?
11:30<andythenorth>tankers carrying alcohol?
11:30<andythenorth>happens irl
11:30<kormer>Does anyone here have any clue why GSTown.ExpandTown(,1); would only ever work on a single town and not the others?
11:31<jonty-comp>man i would like to hijack an oil tanker if it was full of alcohol
11:31<kormer>I've got conditional checks before that, and I'm logging the parameters inside the condition, so I know it's being executed on the other towns, it just isn't doing anything.
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11:33<andythenorth>guiness tanker
11:33<jonty-comp>aw, they aren't big enough
11:43<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25006 /trunk/src/script/api (game/game_window.hpp.sq script_window.hpp) (2013-02-16 16:43:05 UTC)
11:43<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Update script_window.
11:48<andythenorth>container ship
11:48<andythenorth>allow bulk cargos like coal?
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12:34<__ln__>can someone point me to a definition for 'platform' in computing context? some sort of textbook or something, not wikipedia.
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12:53*Zuu published some preliminary patches of click-on-string. They need some overlook on naming of things etc.
12:54<Zuu>I wrote a wiki too:
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12:59<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i don't remember ever seeing such a thing
13:02<terjesc>__ln__: I have searched some of my CS books, but can't find any of them mentioning 'platform'.
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13:04<jonty-comp>aaah the scary moment when you take your backup server offline to replace a disk
13:04<jonty-comp>and have to watch your coworker on the live camera taking it to bits
13:04<jonty-comp>pls to not break my backup
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13:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, plus to not breaking backups
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13:07<__ln__>zomg, i think i've found a definition through in short, "The platform is the set of software and hardware services that are provided to the application."
13:08<terjesc>__ln__: "Distributed Systems - Concepts and Designs", fourth edition, Addison Wesley (ISBN 978-0-321-26354-4) has a description on page 32.
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that's about what i would have come up with... "the combination of hardware and operating system environment"
13:09<terjesc>Along with a figure showing the layers of a system: Computer and network hardware, operating system, middleware and applications/services. The two bottom layers are marked "Platform".
13:10<__ln__>thanks terjesc, i'll have a look at that book as well.
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13:10<terjesc>"The lowest-level hardware and software layers are often referred to as a platform for distributed systems and applications. (...) Intel x86/Windows, Intel x86/Solaris, PowerPC/Mac OS X (...) are major examples."
13:11<terjesc>__ln__: np
13:11<__ln__>for the record, the one that i found was in "Embedded System Design" by Gajski et al.
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13:13<__ln__>terjesc: ah, that's even a better definition for my purposes.
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13:14<@Alberth>the lowest level are indivual logic gates, imho
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: not if you consider "hardware" as one monolithic level ;)
13:15<@Alberth>and the lowest software level is probably in programming the CPU instructions
13:15<terjesc>In this context it is "hardware" (as a whole) and "operating system". q:
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13:16<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that is a semantical layer ("lower level programming language" vs. "higher level programming language), not a logical layer (direct interfacing with hardware, vs. indirect interfacing with hardware)
13:16<@Alberth>why not just use "operating system?"
13:17<__ln__>because the OS is not the same as platform
13:17<terjesc>"Platform" is all the way down from OS to HW, while OS is just the OS.
13:17<__ln__>Linux on i386 is in many sense not the same platform as Linux on ARMv6
13:18<@Alberth>it is? all standard unix utilities work the same
13:18<@Alberth>and one cc further, you have an arbitrary app running
13:18<terjesc>Not necessarily.
13:19<@Alberth>if you write good C/C++, it is
13:19<__ln__>let's say a platform is binary-compatible with itself. m'kay?
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: they may be interface compatible, but not binary compatible
13:19<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: hence 'cc', ie build from source
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: so "platform" is now including the compiler?
13:20<@Alberth>OS does
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>i really doubt that
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i don't think many people have compilers on their phones
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>yet "iPhone/iOS" is a platform in every sense of the word
13:23<@Alberth>like it is uniform hardware :p
13:24<@Alberth>we have very nice experiences with patches that worked on one i* machine failed on another :D
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>what does that have to do with anything?
13:24<terjesc>Is that to say you wrote bad code?
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>nobody said a platform can't have "poorly documented features"
13:25<@Alberth>terjesc: impossible to say, with lack of sane documentation
13:27<@Alberth>but you see the same mess with your average PC card, manufacturers constantly switch components to save a few cents
13:28<terjesc>Well, anyway, the way I have seen the term "platform" used is to describe OS and the CPU Instruction Set Architecture.
13:29<terjesc>Of course there are different CPU vendors and a myriad of other hardware in a machine.
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13:35<Bad_Brett>good evening
13:39<oskari89>Oh why there can't be drag&drop for objects...
13:40<oskari89>Dutch Road Furniture would be more comfortable to use with that drag&drop
13:45<@Rubidium>because nobody bothered to come up with a decent specification
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25007 /trunk/src/lang (9 files) (2013-02-16 18:45:45 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>bulgarian - 15 changes by ivanarj
13:46<@DorpsGek>esperanto - 1 changes by Asakha
13:46<@DorpsGek>greek - 41 changes by Evropi
13:46<@DorpsGek>hungarian - 24 changes by oklmernok
13:46<@DorpsGek>icelandic - 4 changes by Stimrol
13:46<@DorpsGek>japanese - 50 changes by Aknuth
13:46<@DorpsGek>korean - 2 changes by telk5093
13:46<@DorpsGek>norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by skjaeve
13:46<@DorpsGek>polish - 4 changes by wojteks86
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>i think we had that same discussion a week ago :p
13:47<@Rubidium>as long as "we" doesn't include me, then yes that's possible. Otherwise, I can't remember a thing of it
13:51<@peter1138>ooh, rgb colour maps still compiles :p
13:52<oskari89>*sigh* diagonal roads could be nice too...
13:52<@peter1138>hotpink company colour
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13:59<supermop>rgb color maps...?
14:06<@peter1138>colour maps
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14:15<supermop>like the world map?
14:16<@peter1138>heh, no, company colour recoloring
14:16<oskari89>Is there any patch "Clone x number of vehicles with one click?
14:17<@peter1138>yes but it's pretty old
14:17<supermop>to arbitrary rgb values?
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14:18<@peter1138>32bpp blitter only feature, heh
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14:23<V453000>when will colours be in trunk peter1138? :)
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>there are colours in trunk
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14:43<Snail>tbh I'm comfortable with the default 256 colors, especially since the sprites are so small
14:43<Snail>we could use an extra set of shades of red though :p
14:45<frosch123>use the fire cycle :p
14:45<frosch123>it's red
14:45<frosch123>maybe some yellow
14:45<@Rubidium>that's also a shade of red, isn't it?
14:46<@Rubidium>just a bit too much green ;)
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14:51<@Rubidium>looks like a typical Japanese commercial
14:58<Snail>the fire cycle is made of blinking pixels :p
14:58<Snail>and tbh I love all those different greens :D
15:06<@peter1138> < more greens
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>so, who is going to reattach my retina now? :p
15:09<frosch123>educate your cats
15:09<frosch123>they could even show you the path at night
15:11<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: obviously someone from the genius bar
15:14<andythenorth>should I ban bulk cargos from the cargo hovercraft?
15:15<frosch123>maybe you could reduce the running cost, if it transports hover boards
15:17<andythenorth>what about helium?
15:17<andythenorth>or anti-grav?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>make an anti-grav cargo class?
15:18<andythenorth>where does it go?
15:19<FLHerne>andythenorth: Probabaly don't ban them, just increase the running cost until it's uneconomic to use them :P
15:19<FLHerne>Same as helicopters...
15:19<andythenorth>running cost is not a gameplay factor
15:19<andythenorth>the only things that matter are refits, capacity and speed
15:19<andythenorth>the rest is piffle
15:20<FLHerne>Increase the running cost until it *is* a factor, then :P
15:20*FLHerne is already a basecosts-grf user
15:21<andythenorth>that's why in MP you have double-headed electrics on every cargo :P
15:21<andythenorth>because you care so much :D
15:21<andythenorth>or was that scuddles?
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15:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: set cargp aging on "slow" ships so the speed doesn't matter...
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15:23<frosch123>andythenorth: surely overall cost do not matter. but unprofitable routes are a pain to see
15:24<andythenorth>I've forgotten how classes work
15:24<@Rubidium>just needs the cargodist 'capacity' overlay that shows the average profit of the trains passing there
15:24<andythenorth>if cargo is piece, covered, and my vehicle is piece, and doesn't exclude covered
15:24<andythenorth>then all is well?
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15:27<andythenorth>yeah it will be fine
15:28<andythenorth>tankers carrying milk?
15:29<andythenorth>seems a bit off
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>exclude piece?
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>just don't exclude liquid on the piece-freighter then
15:30<andythenorth>I'm preferring to exclude known cargos in fact
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>assuming milk is piece,liquid
15:30<andythenorth>excluding unknown cargos by class is prone to breaking classes
15:30<andythenorth>classes / class based refitting /s
15:30<andythenorth>as Zeph proved :P
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>you just have to make sure you have one "monotonous" refit mask
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>so if you ever exclude a cargo class, you need to have a vehicle that includes this mask and does not exclude any others
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15:35<FLHerne>andythenorth: That's atypical of me (delayed response) :P
15:36<FLHerne>andythenorth: Different settings, and competetiveness - normally I try to use every vehicle at least once :D
15:37<andythenorth>can't decide if ferries can deliver petrol
15:37<andythenorth>irl, yes
15:37<andythenorth>but this igw
15:37<andythenorth>plenty of other ships carrying petrol
15:39<andythenorth>mail in container ships?
15:39<andythenorth>FISH said no
15:39<andythenorth>Squid could say yes
15:39<andythenorth>vote now :P
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15:41<Eddi|zuHause>i can't decide that
15:42<andythenorth>there are no shortage of ships for carrying mail
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>you'd want to have mail/armored/express in faster ships
15:42<andythenorth>of similar capacities and speed as the container ships
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15:42<andythenorth>so I think no
15:42<andythenorth>it's just logically a bit odd
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15:43<andythenorth>mail clearly goes by container
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15:43<FLHerne_>Petrol on ferries - I doubt it in useful quantities, they don't normally like hazardous substances...
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>excluding mail on "cargo" ships may be better for cerain autorefit cases
15:44<FLHerne_>Voting no for containerised mail
15:44<andythenorth>I even have this on my desk at work
15:44<andythenorth>but no to mail
15:44<andythenorth>and no to petrol on ferries
15:45<andythenorth>changing subject, FIRS needs lot of translation updates still
15:45<andythenorth>I could release 0.9.3 then
15:45<andythenorth>or before :P
15:45<FLHerne_>Probably not the kind of domestic mail I'd imagine in OTTD for that?
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15:46<andythenorth>no you won't go fishing by hovercraft
15:47<andythenorth>there are probably all kinds of cases about shipping large amounts of frozen fish and such
15:47<andythenorth>but meh
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>excluding fish is a nice idea
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15:49<andythenorth>there's probably a pun in this somewhere
15:49<andythenorth>FISH: doesn't refit Fish
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15:51<andythenorth>there are trawlers :P
15:51<andythenorth>and big general cargo ships that refit anything
15:51<frosch123>not transporting fish would break firs, wouldn't it? :p
15:51<frosch123>also, is is very common that big fish have smaller fish in their stomache
15:51<andythenorth>yup :)
15:51<andythenorth>some 'trawlers' are big. I won't be including this
15:52<andythenorth>7,000t capacity
15:52<@peter1138>do it
15:52<andythenorth>3x longer than the largest ship in FISH
15:52<andythenorth>might glitch
15:52<andythenorth>@calc 7000/45
15:52<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 155.555555556
15:52<andythenorth>you would need 155 fishing grounds to fill it in one month
15:53<andythenorth>maybe an add-on set :P
15:53<@Alberth>but luckily it cannot transport fish :p
15:54<@peter1138>a trawler that can't trawl fish?
15:54<andythenorth>Squid Jigging, apparently
15:54*andythenorth digresses
15:55<andythenorth>so who's got a spec for ships with multiple cargo holds?
15:56<andythenorth>ships have 2 holds
15:56<andythenorth>each can be refitted independently
15:57<andythenorth>capacity can be set for each independently
15:57<andythenorth>cb36 can handle changing properties on 1st or 2nd hold
15:57<andythenorth>some authors will ask for more than 2 holds
15:57<andythenorth>they only get 2
15:57<andythenorth>new GUI
15:57<andythenorth>holds can be named by newgrf
15:58<andythenorth>'Holds | Cabins'
15:58<andythenorth>'Holds | Deck Cargo'
15:58<andythenorth>'Tanks | Deck Cargo'
15:58<andythenorth>each hold has a refit mask (classes, labels)
15:58<andythenorth>don't arse about with loading speed per hold, unless it's easier to just allow it
16:00<andythenorth>cb 36 gains a var to check which hold is being modified?
16:00<andythenorth>purchase menu crap needs handling
16:03<@peter1138>fish is a stupid cargo anyway
16:03<@peter1138>you're a transport tycoon, not a fisherman
16:04<andythenorth>tra la la la
16:04<@peter1138>DHL don't have fishing subsidiaries do they?
16:04<andythenorth>that was like 10 weeks of discussion in the FIRS dev thread
16:04<andythenorth>it went back and forth, forth and back
16:04<andythenorth>forth and fifth
16:04<andythenorth>then I did it anyway
16:04<andythenorth>I like fishing
16:04<andythenorth>I like deadliest catch
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>"one of these cargos is not like the others"
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16:08<LSky`>hey everyone, im trying to get my server back online after I updated it to a new revision. However the two people who usually help me understand linux arent available at the moment, and Im a bit stuck. Anyone who could help me a little?
16:10<@planetmaker>LSky`, it needs somewhat more specific question...
16:10<LSky`>the primary issue is that the autopilot script has stopped working correctly since i updated the server, but aside from that I cant get it to run manually either
16:10<LSky`>from what i understand, im supposed to cd to the directly where the installation is located and then run something along the lines of; ./openttd -D -c openttd.cfg
16:11<LSky`>but that gives me this error; ror: No available language packs (invalid versions?)
16:11<@planetmaker>then you didn't compile the languages
16:11<@planetmaker>./configure && make
16:12<@planetmaker>or you encountered an error during compilation
16:12<LSky`>i just did the compiling for the windows client, not the linux server, so thats a complicating factor
16:13<LSky`>guess its back to the drawing board.
16:17<LSky`>just to make sure, im not running into this issue?
16:19<andythenorth>logs via container ship? allowed?
16:19<@planetmaker>very hard to tell. We don't know how your server and the dirs look like
16:19<@planetmaker>I simply get a full checkout of openttd, compile it. And start it also from there
16:19<LSky`>trying that now
16:19<andythenorth>containerised logging
16:20<@Alberth>the former is meh, imho
16:20<@planetmaker>they also have their openttd.cfg right next to the binary. so no fancy paths need specification
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>you have special ships for fish and logs, so exclude it
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16:21<andythenorth>I am easily convinced
16:21<Pikka>yes you are
16:21<andythenorth>hey there's even a special machine for it
16:21<andythenorth>Pikka: if 10CC is an elaborate troll of me...well :P
16:22<andythenorth>of me? aimed at me :P
16:22<andythenorth>so no wood by hovercraft
16:22<andythenorth>no hover-logging
16:22<Pikka>shameful display
16:22<FLHerne_>andythenorth: Don't prohibit it, make it impractical :P
16:22<FLHerne_>I said that already
16:23<andythenorth>FLHerne_: it's boring to do that
16:23<FLHerne_>Of course, you have a statutory right to ignore anything I say :D
16:23<andythenorth>what you do is make a choice, then try to make it a non-choice :)
16:23<andythenorth>which is just tedious cognitive work, and not really very gamey
16:23<andythenorth>but thanks anyway ;)
16:24<andythenorth>Pikka: have you done your industry grf yet? I need to see if my ships refit for it sensibly :P
16:24<Pikka>not yet :[
16:25<Pikka>it's basically default cargos anyway
16:25<Pikka>+gravel, "cement" and fertiliser
16:25<Pikka>and plastic and lumber
16:25<Pikka>or something
16:25<andythenorth>I tested default and PBI
16:25<andythenorth>refits seem ok to me
16:25<andythenorth>didn't test Toyland with anything :P
16:26<frosch123>lumber? why not wood or timber?
16:26<Pikka>because wood is wood
16:26<Pikka>and lumber is lumber
16:26<andythenorth>it's semantic minefield :P
16:26<Pikka>and "timber" is either in british english
16:27<FLHerne_>andythenorth: ECS is common and overcomplex, is it not?
16:27<FLHerne_>Might be worth testing that
16:27<andythenorth>FLHerne_: are you volunteering? o_O Or would you volunteer someone else?
16:29<FLHerne_>andythenorth: I could give it a try, I guess :P
16:29<FLHerne_>Is relevant version on devzone?
16:29<andythenorth>I just linked it above
16:29<andythenorth>I volunteered myself though
16:30<andythenorth>why does the container ship refit to tourists?
16:30<andythenorth>that's dumb
16:30<andythenorth>containerised tourists
16:32<andythenorth>George: Tourists...Express? Really? :)
16:32<andythenorth>that's necessary?
16:33<Pikka>if you want to deal with tourists you have to exclude passenger class
16:33<andythenorth>I want to not deal with tourists :P
16:33<andythenorth>I'll just exclude them
16:34<Pikka>good idea
16:34<Pikka>make everything explicitly not carry tourists
16:34<andythenorth>from bloody every vehicle
16:34<Pikka>they can walk, sod 'em
16:34<FLHerne_>Why does ECS have tourists as a separate cargo anyway?
16:34<FLHerne_>What stops them being like any other passenger?
16:35<Pikka>for the same reason NARS2 has regearing
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16:35<Pikka>it seemed like a good idea at the time
16:35<Pikka>who knows, perhaps tourists continue to seem like a good idea to some :)
16:35<andythenorth>should just change the class
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>tourists might be easier since autorefit, but very few sets support that yet
16:37<andythenorth>ferries should carry ECS vehicles
16:37<andythenorth>let's do that
16:37*andythenorth doing ECS support? :o
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>problem is that "articulated" vehicles like trams can only have either/or
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>not mix both
16:38<andythenorth>and that it has express set as a class :P
16:38<andythenorth>which is silly
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>another problem is that you should differentiate between "outgoing" and "incoming" tourists, so you can't circle them around between tourist centers
16:39<andythenorth>anyway, there now, lots of ships that can carry ECS Vehicles
16:39<andythenorth>how nice
16:43<andythenorth>ECS oil well is nice
16:43<andythenorth>Pikka: does ECS have your oil well graphics?
16:45<Pikka>does it?
16:47<Pikka>coming along
16:47<andythenorth>that tractor is nice
16:48<andythenorth>same size as an F unit eh?
16:48<Pikka>is it?
16:48<Pikka>it's longer, and less high :)
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>is that supposed to be an american flag?
16:49<Pikka>as it is in reality...
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16:49<andythenorth>can you reuse the F for pineapple?
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>in which reality? :)
16:50<Pikka>no I can't, for a number of reasons
16:50<Pikka>our loading gauge is UK-sized
16:50<Pikka>we didn't have F Units :]
16:51<andythenorth>are all those clyde things smaller then?
16:51<Pikka>they had double-ended Co-Co F units down south, so if I do a general aus set I can reuse the front shape.
16:51<Pikka>our clydes were all hood units
16:51<andythenorth>I C
16:52<Pikka>the only full-width diesels we had here were EE units
16:52<Pikka>single-ended 37s :}
16:52<FLHerne_>Pikka: How is a set with that few vehicles meant to be interesting? :P
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>cold cat is cold...
16:53<andythenorth>pikka there's always a counter-example :P
16:53<andythenorth>modified to au loading gauge
16:53<andythenorth>but anyway
16:53<Pikka>no, not modified
16:53<Pikka>that's down south :P
16:53<andythenorth>oh pineapple is localised :P
16:53<andythenorth>I C
16:53<Pikka>pineapple == queensland rail, 3'6" and UK loading gauge
16:54<Pikka><Pikka> they had double-ended Co-Co F units down south, so if I do a general aus set I can reuse the front shape.
16:54<andythenorth>details details :)
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16:55*andythenorth considers 10CC NG
16:55<andythenorth>european crap
16:55<Pikka>don't :P
16:55<andythenorth>cheap, gutless
16:56<Pikka>1953, they predate 37s by a bit :)
16:56<andythenorth>uglys :)
16:56<Pikka>they looked even uglier before they got the sunvisor added
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: so, what are the design principles behind 10CC again?
16:57<Pikka> and our first diesels, had the drawgear on the bogies like class 40s
16:59*Pikka bbl
17:02-!-LordAro [] has joined #openttd
17:05<andythenorth>but he can speak for himself :)
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17:07<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: if i were to reduce german engines to "100 years of development in 10 engines", i'd start with: P8, S3/6, 01, E18, E94, V200, 103, 132/232, 151, ICE1, ICE3 (yes, german trains go up to eleven :p)
17:08*andythenorth was just thinking
17:08<andythenorth>balancing HEQS was never a problem
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that doesn't specify the design goals
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: only some vague idea
17:08<andythenorth>yeah, you need p*kka back for that :)
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17:08<andythenorth>HEQS has _some_ silly pointless vehicles that could be cut
17:09<andythenorth>but none of them use real names
17:09<andythenorth>and HEQS doesn't try to represent a region or country or company
17:10<frosch123>i guess if you would have to reduce it to a single engine, it would be 103 :p
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>pretty much :p
17:11<frosch123>anyway, i think 111 is missing in your list
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>there's about two dozen missing in my list :p
17:12<frosch123>i guess 111 should be there instead of 151
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>which is why i won't try to mimic 10CC in CETS ;o
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>the "problem" with the 111 is that it is in almost all in-game modeled properties inferior to the 103
17:13<andythenorth>what would happen if you took the model numbers off?
17:13<andythenorth>and used approximations for real locomotives
17:13<andythenorth>that fit specific gameplay niches?
17:13<andythenorth>can you get 10?
17:13<frosch123>it would no longer be cets
17:13<frosch123>but nuts
17:14<frosch123>and nuts is already done
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>pretty much ;)
17:14<@planetmaker>hihi :-)
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>CETS and NUTS have very similar design principles
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>except for the "realism"
17:15<andythenorth>10CC makes more sense combined
17:15<andythenorth>so set A might be heavily biased to electric power
17:15<andythenorth>set B under-powered, cheap engines to be combined in multiple
17:15<@planetmaker>how's that specific to 10CC as opposed to existing sets?
17:16<andythenorth>it's not specific to 10CC
17:16<andythenorth>it's just the context where 10CC makes sense
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: P8 is a quite nice alround engine to start with, E94 and 151 are nice (electric) freight engines, as is 132/232 (diesel), the other are mostly express engines
17:16<andythenorth>planetmaker: btw, how many engines in OpenGFX + Trains?
17:17<@planetmaker>one, two more than in TTD
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to focus more on electrics, take out the S3/6 and put in the E16 instead
17:18<andythenorth>planetmaker: when we played MP with OpenGFX + Trains, were we ever short of the right engine?
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>then you have P8, 01, V200 and 132/232 as non-electric
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>E16, E18, 103, ICE1, ICE3 as express electric
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause>and E94, 151 as freight electric
17:19<@planetmaker>andythenorth, no. But that just proves that default engines are quite well-designed :D
17:19<andythenorth>I count 9 conventional rail engines in that set :)
17:19<andythenorth>in tropic
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>but "focus on electric" might be better suited for a "swiss" set
17:20<frosch123>andythenorth: that's silly. we play for 7 years
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>as they have almost exclusively electrics
17:20<andythenorth>frosch123: playing for 7 years is silly? o_O
17:20<andythenorth>I take the point
17:20<andythenorth>but no-one is proposing rm-ing the existing big sets?
17:20<frosch123>ofc there are not many engines within 7 years
17:20<andythenorth>unless they break Bananas ToS
17:21<frosch123>unless you play with daylength factor 38919
17:21<andythenorth>he he
17:21<andythenorth>daylength :P
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>before you introduce daylength, you should make autosave based on real-time instead of game time
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. "every 2/5/15 minutes"
17:23<andythenorth>is that daylength thread still running?
17:23<@planetmaker>except when paused?
17:23<andythenorth>I've gone snow blind to it :P
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: especially when paused
17:23<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i thought it should be based on number of user actions
17:24<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, "especially when paused" is something I explicitly would NOT want.
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you can do lots of things with build-while-paused
17:25<frosch123>planetmaker: you need it when playing with build in pause mode
17:25<@planetmaker>It will overwrite all meaningful savegames over night with the same. So then there'll be nothing to go back to when something went wrong or malicious action taken
17:25<frosch123>but you do not want to autosave when leaving the computer on its own in pause
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and also the scenario editor is "totally broken" because it has no autosave
17:25<frosch123>so, the only sensible thing is to use "user action"
17:25-!-Yexo [] has quit [Server closed connection]
17:25<frosch123>maybe coupling it with realtime
17:25<frosch123>like: every 5 minutes, unless nothing was done
17:25<@planetmaker>why did yexo go?
17:26-!-Yexo [] has joined #openttd
17:26<andythenorth>see what you did? o_O
17:26<andythenorth>summoned him
17:26<frosch123>planetmaker: michi perfomed the same thing a while ago
17:26<andythenorth>can you summon dalestan?
17:26<frosch123>maybe something related to the bouncer
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>server hiccup, i presume :)
17:26-!-HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:27<frosch123>don't worry, herzogdexter will return
17:27<frosch123>i was already used to herzogdexter disconnecting when getting used to reading logs in 2007
17:28<frosch123>i think he never said anything in those 6 years
17:29<LordAro>@seen herzogdexter
17:29<@DorpsGek>LordAro: herzogdexter was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 6 weeks, 5 days, 23 hours, 28 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <HerzogDeXtEr> Happy New Year
17:29<LordAro>ha :P
17:29<frosch123>but seeing him disconnect makes me feel at home, or something like that :)
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: 10 bucks that this was an amsg :p
17:30<LordAro>almost certainly, who else capitalises like that? :P
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17:30<LordAro>automated, i presume
17:30<andythenorth>if I say 'express freight' in notes for a ship, and cargo doesn't use express class
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>no, something that gets posted to all channels.
17:30<andythenorth>are people going to whine?
17:31<andythenorth>actually nvm
17:31<frosch123>express freight for ships :p
17:31<@planetmaker>yes. They always whine
17:31<andythenorth>this is true
17:31<andythenorth>we all do it :P
17:31<andythenorth>some whine and make grfs
17:31<andythenorth>some whine and then whine more
17:31<@planetmaker>yup. like that :-)
17:31<frosch123>can i get an express packet delivery with hovercraft?
17:32<frosch123>does dhl offer something like that?
17:32<andythenorth>you can order petrol by mail, right?
17:32<@planetmaker>maybe here:
17:32<frosch123>they have hovercraft?
17:33<@planetmaker>hm... catemeran at least
17:33<frosch123>can hovercraft climb norwegian mountains?
17:33<@planetmaker>I doubt that
17:33<frosch123>do hovercraft work in low pressure environments?
17:33<frosch123>like mount everest?
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17:33<frosch123>or do they not have enough propulsion?
17:33<wojteks86>hi guys
17:34<wojteks86>can someone please tell me what exactly is "Sling" in AV8 NewGRF?
17:34<@planetmaker>not sure, frosch123 :-)
17:35<frosch123>hmm, i did not know that diesel was colour coded
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>wojteks86: context?
17:35<wojteks86>no idea, I dont use that set
17:35<@planetmaker>colour and smell-coded
17:35<wojteks86>it just says Sling with no other words
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>"sling" is usually something that you throw stones with
17:36<andythenorth>see the wires to the cat underneath?
17:36<andythenorth>wires / ropes / lines
17:36<andythenorth>it's that
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: red diesel is for heating and green diesel is for fuel
17:36<wojteks86>thank you, but it may actually have something to do with aircraft colouring?
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: has to do with taxes
17:37<wojteks86>(Company Coloured, Sling)
17:37<andythenorth>it's a refit
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>wojteks86: that is a "cargo subtype" for refitting
17:37<wojteks86>others are for example (Company Coloured, No tip tanks
17:37<wojteks86>hmm ok :D
17:38<wojteks86>glad someone used that set
17:38<wojteks86>planes are not my cop of tea
17:38<andythenorth>I asked p*kka to include that feature :)
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>wojteks86: those have nothing to do with each other
17:38<wojteks86>Eddi, got it now ;)
17:39<wojteks86>sorry, but this will be my 3rd translation today and I need a break :D
17:39<andythenorth>bed time
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17:53<Eddi|zuHause>(i don't think i did this the right way)
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18:24<@peter1138> old
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18:31<Pikka>Eddi|zuHause, there's more rules than just "10 locos" ;) but your list looks about right
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18:32*NGC3982 dances in a ravish pile on the floor
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18:44<NGC3982>The Prodigy is my youth on a CD
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18:49<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: one could also swap the E18 for the E04 and the 01 for the 01.10, if that fits better with introduction dates
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18:51<Eddi|zuHause>although then maybe you should also introduce the E10 to fill the "gap" between the electrics
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>(which means we're already at 12 engines)
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21:20<Pikka>"Note that vehicle graphics are only updated every time the vehicle actually moves"
21:20<Pikka>is the fact that this isn't true in OpenTTD a bug or a feature? :)
21:20<Pikka>for var 46 motion counter
21:20<Pikka>-OpenTTD +trunk
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22:50<kormer>Anyone know if it there's a lag with the display of log messages in the AI debug panel?
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23:40<Pikka>I don't know, kormer, you might have better luck when the europeans are awake.
23:51<kormer>Thanks, I'm just wondering if it's really taking that long for the script to run, or if it takes that long for the log messages to show up.
23:51<kormer>I may have worked it out though.
---Logclosed Sun Feb 17 00:00:52 2013