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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-17

---Logopened Sun Feb 17 00:00:52 2013
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02:31<@planetmaker>good morning
02:40<Supercheese>Salve
02:40<@planetmaker>savle Supercheese
02:40<@planetmaker>fail. more tea
02:40<Supercheese>Heh :)
02:44<Supercheese>Factor planetarum? Planetamfactor?
02:44<Supercheese>Not sure how Latin compounds nouns
02:44<@planetmaker>faceo planeta
02:44<Supercheese>Well, that would be conjugated
02:45<@planetmaker>hm... wrong case
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02:45<Supercheese>I personally would go for Factor Planetarum
02:45<Supercheese>"Maker of planets"
02:45<Supercheese>of course it'd be your call :D
02:46<@planetmaker>:-)
02:47<Supercheese>Or perhaps using -fex suffix
02:47<Supercheese>Planetafex
02:47<Supercheese>Like how pontifex is bridgemaker
02:47<@planetmaker>lol
02:47<Supercheese>Planetifex
02:47<@planetmaker>sounds nice
02:47<@planetmaker>planetafex, though
02:48<andythenorth>bonsoir
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02:49<@planetmaker>bon jour, andythenorth
02:49<@planetmaker>it's awefully long ago I actually looked at latin grammar... :S
02:49<Supercheese>-ifex suffix would be best, it seems
02:50<@planetmaker>likely :-)
02:50<Supercheese>Planetifex
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02:55<@planetmaker>sure enough I didn't touch the latin grammar for at least 5 years ;-)
02:55<@planetmaker>(given the dust cover :D )
02:55<Pikka>good morning andy and planetmaker
02:55<@planetmaker>hello Pikka
02:56<andythenorth>also, if you have a simuscape login, you should read SAC's post
02:56<andythenorth>http://www.simuscape.net/simutalk/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=423&start=20
02:56<andythenorth>which apart from about 2 matters of fact, I agree with
02:56<andythenorth>I'm pretty sick of dickheads spreading pointless hatred about such a trivial non-thing
02:56<Supercheese>andyseptentrio
02:57<Supercheese>Pikka... bah, nothing to translate there
02:57<andythenorth>'welcome to the internets' andythenorth
02:57<Supercheese>;)
02:58<Pikka>dickhead's gonna dick
02:58<Supercheese>spotted dick?
02:59-!-Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
02:59<Pikka>OzTrans's "oh, maybe I was going to put my actual grfs on bananas, but now I won't" is a nice little bit of drama queening
03:00<Pikka>as now echoed by SAC, I see
03:00<Supercheese>10/10, would drama again
03:01<Supercheese>dramatize* again
03:10<@Terkhen>good morning
03:12<Pikka>good morning Terkhen
03:20<andythenorth>ariverdicicicicic
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03:25<Supercheese>chi-chi-chi-chia
03:28<@peter1138>but he wasn't going to :p
03:29<Pikka>of course not, peter
03:29*peter1138 doesn't have a simuscape login to can't read that link
03:29<Pikka>good morning also
03:29<Pikka>you're not missing much
03:30*Supercheese needs a new map to play
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03:50<jonty-comp>oh, excellent
03:50<@peter1138>hmm?
03:50<jonty-comp>re above nonsense
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04:00-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
04:00<@Alberth>moin
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04:03<@Rubidium>hallihallo Alberth
04:10<Supercheese>good night
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04:15<Eddi|zuHause><Supercheese> Planetafex <-- sounds like a guy in the Abrafaxes, or Asterix ...
04:15<@Alberth>you'll have to keep that until tomorrow, I am afraid
04:16-!-planetmaker is now known as planetifex
04:16*planetifex waves ;-)
04:16-!-planetifex is now known as planetmaker
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: what kind of an attention span do you think i have? :p
04:17<@Alberth>infinite ?
04:17<@Alberth>may be a tad optimistic though
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04:31<@peter1138>http://bsd.slashdot.org/story/13/02/16/2329259/netbsd-to-support-kernel-development-in-lua-scripting
04:31<@peter1138>uh what
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04:34<@Alberth>ieks
04:34<@Alberth>hi andy!
04:34<andythenorth>hola
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>"we want <hype> because it's The Hype and <buzzwords>"
04:35<@Alberth>in bsd?
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04:36<andythenorth>hmm
04:36<andythenorth>Nine Inch Nails
04:36<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know BSD, but the article above certainly reads like that
04:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: do they still live? :p
04:36<@peter1138>*netbsd
04:36<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause last I heard, yes
04:37<andythenorth>Wikipedia will know :)
04:37<@peter1138>nine inch nails is trent reznor. he "stopped touring"
04:37<andythenorth>Ghosts
04:37<@peter1138>and moved on to "how to destroy angels"
04:37<@peter1138>he got married 'n everything
04:39<andythenorth>imagine
04:39<andythenorth>so ships with 2 holds
04:40<andythenorth>is that spec done yet? o_O
04:41<andythenorth>then I can redesign FISH again :)
04:42<andythenorth>as the new one is nearly all worked out, it must be time to rip it up? o_O
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04:43<andythenorth>Pikka: ever considered using not-real names, not-real vehicle types?
04:43<andythenorth>a la HEQS
04:43<Pikka>eh.. well, I'm leaning that way slightly. but it requires a lot of imagination. :)
04:44<Pikka>certainly plenty of vehicles in 10CC are less than wholly accurate representations of a real vehicle
04:45<Pikka>like the "Crab" introduced in 1914...
04:45<andythenorth>I think it helps
04:45<andythenorth>game world, not real world
04:45<Pikka>yes
04:45<Pikka>which is also why for 10CC I'm (mostly) avoiding using manufacturer's names in the vehicle names.
04:46<andythenorth>+1
04:46<andythenorth>I just get names on a theme
04:46<andythenorth>HEQS is mostly mountains
04:46<andythenorth>FISH was shipping areas
04:46<andythenorth>Squid is lighthouses
04:47<Pikka>:)
04:47<@Alberth>andythenorth: ok if I merge the new polish translation?
04:47<Pikka>otoh, bearing /some/ resemblence to the real world helps people relate and work out what they're supposed to do
04:47<Pikka>allegedly
04:47<andythenorth>Alberth absolutely
04:47<andythenorth>resemblance yes
04:48<andythenorth>but strict names and stats encourages rivet counters
04:48<andythenorth>and we all have a bit of rivet counter in us
04:48<andythenorth>anyway, gtg
04:48<andythenorth>time for soft play
04:48<Pikka>bye again
04:49<andythenorth>eeebl
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04:51<@peter1138>Pikka, release a play test
04:52<Pikka>I'll put it on bananas with one train in and everyone will complain
04:52<Pikka>it's still a long way from playtest :)
04:52<Pikka>and of course swine industries need doing too
04:53<Pikka>maybe that's what I'll call them, swine industries.
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04:55<andythenorth_>Phone irc
04:55<Pikka>hax
04:55<andythenorth_>It's like star trek
04:55<@Rubidium>phone home...
04:56<andythenorth_>I am in the future
04:57<@Rubidium>andythenorth_: oh, the world where an audio transmission doesn't work, so then they'll transport a hologram instead?!?
04:58<@peter1138>:)
04:58<andythenorth_>Hmm
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04:59<andythen_>Flakey
05:01<Pikka>yes
05:04<andythen_>Weak hax
05:04<Pikka>mmm
05:05<Pikka>I like it when code works first time
05:05<andythen_>\0/
05:06<Eddi|zuHause>so... how does one open word 2007 documents?
05:07<andythen_>With Word 2007?
05:07<Eddi|zuHause>are you insane?
05:07<Pikka>www.pikkarail.com/junk/supperchef.png
05:07<andythen_>Remains to be seen i think
05:07<Pikka>the F unit has coaches
05:08<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: with LO/OO?
05:08<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: apparently not with the versions installed on that computer...
05:09<@Rubidium>http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/web-apps/ ?
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>hm, got to try that then
05:09<@Rubidium>otherwise pretty-pleasing someone else with the appropriate tools
05:11<terjesc>Eddi|zuHause: AbiWord?
05:13<terjesc>And antiword.
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05:26<Eddi|zuHause>i hate other people's computers... nothing works...
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06:00<Wolf01>moin
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06:03<@Alberth>moin
06:21<NGC3982>Morning.
06:21<@peter1138>supperchef?
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06:24<@peter1138>moo
06:24<NGC3982>Watz
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06:32<Eddi|zuHause>niom
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07:18<kennyngston>hi
07:18<kennyngston>I've tried to install latest zbase for openttd, and openttd crashed, due to corrupt zbasse .grf files (Even though the md5 checksums are OK). Any idea why?
07:18<@planetmaker>hello
07:19<@planetmaker>kennyngston, please provide the crash.log and crash.dmp. Did you try re-downloading zbase? what's the exact error (word by word)?
07:20<kennyngston>planetmaker: ive tried it with the latest, and a previous version too (248 and 245), but let me get the error message again with the 248, one moment
07:21<kennyngston>i have to re-download it
07:23<frosch123>kennyngston: how much ram do you have?
07:23<frosch123>iirc ottd requires 512MB ram to be able to load zbase
07:24<frosch123>and if that is not avaialble, ottd does not handle it gracefully at al
07:25<kennyngston>im on 4 gigs, pretty sure its enough :)
07:26<kennyngston>okay, now i just have to figure out where does ubuntu saves the screenshots..
07:27<@planetmaker>~/.openttd/screenshot
07:27<@planetmaker>assuming 1.3.0-beta2 or nightlies
07:28<kennyngston>http://postimage.org/image/qztg1zxpb/
07:28<Wakou>Is there any way to get the old 32bpp extra zoom syle of game back?
07:30<kennyngston>well, http://postimage.org/image/qztg1zxpb/full/ shows error msg, original checksums, and current checksums
07:31<@planetmaker>independent of anything, you should place manually downloaded stuff not anywhere in the content_download directory :-)
07:31<@Alberth>Wakou: yes, make LOTS of sprites
07:31<@planetmaker>rather in the baseset or newgrf directories
07:31<@planetmaker>kennyngston, and that happens also with the zbase you can aquire via ingame content download?
07:31<kennyngston>uhm, i dont have a newgrf dir sadly
07:32<Wakou>Alberth: So that is a no?
07:32<@planetmaker>yes, just create it. next to the content_download dir. But zbase goes into baseset
07:32<@Alberth>mkdir newgrf solves that
07:32<kennyngston>planetmaker: how can i get it from ingame?
07:32<kennyngston>so ~/.openttd/newgrf ?
07:32<@planetmaker>kennyngston, main menu -> content download -> select zbase -> download
07:32<@Alberth>Wakou: how would making all sprites not result in getting the style back?
07:32<@planetmaker>~/.openttd/baseset
07:32<@Alberth>it's a lot of work, sure
07:32<@planetmaker>zbase is not a newgrf :-)
07:32<kennyngston>okay, let me try from /baseset
07:33<@planetmaker>doesn't change the problem
07:33<@planetmaker>try to get the version from ingame content download
07:33<@Alberth>Wakou: due to bad license handling, nothing could be saved from the previous effort, unfortunately
07:33<@planetmaker>I'll try and see whether there's an issue with the one offered on devzone currently
07:33<@planetmaker>ingame you'll get r245 iirc
07:34<Wakou>I am not a coder, just like to play the game sometimes. but only with the extra zoom, can't see the tiny details of signals etc..
07:34<@Alberth>but you can have extra zoom always
07:34<@planetmaker>Wakou, you can zom in with every base set you use
07:34<@planetmaker>*zoom
07:34<@planetmaker>whatever graphics you use allow that
07:34<kennyngston>if i extract it to the baseset dir, it does not show up as an option
07:34<Wakou>I thought it was beautiful before, but now... not so. an do not play anymore. Shame.
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07:35<@planetmaker>kennyngston, what version of OpenTTD?
07:35<@Alberth>Wakou: you are aware of zBase?
07:35<kennyngston>latest, installed via software center
07:35<@planetmaker>latest is not a version
07:35<@planetmaker>nor most recent
07:35<kennyngston>assumming its 1.1.4
07:35<@Alberth>"installed via software center" is usually ancient
07:35<@planetmaker>then you will have no joy with zbase
07:35<@planetmaker>get a newer OpenTTD, kennyngston
07:35<Wakou>Alberth: No, what is it?
07:36<@planetmaker>zbase requires OpenTTD 1.2.0 or later
07:36<kennyngston>well that explains :)
07:36<@Alberth>Wakou: a full 32bpp base set
07:36<@planetmaker>kennyngston, you can just go to http://www.openttd.org/download-testing and unzip it into a dir of your choice
07:36<kennyngston>now i'll just have to find where openttd lives..
07:36<@planetmaker>it will just work
07:36<@planetmaker>or should at least
07:37<@planetmaker>openttd doesn't require install
07:37<@Alberth>planetmaker: show confidence, it will! :)
07:37<@planetmaker>:-)
07:37<kennyngston>yeah, but if i dont remove the current installation im risking bugs, who knows how will they behave
07:38<@Alberth>you can have several installs next to each other
07:38<@planetmaker>you don't risk the bugs... just let that rest ;-)
07:38<@planetmaker>I have like 25 openttds here :-)
07:39<@Alberth>not all running at the same time I hope :p
07:39<Wakou>Alberth: TY TY, I will try that later..
07:39<@planetmaker>all you want to make sure is that you know *which* OpenTTD you run :-)
07:39<@planetmaker>Alberth, that not, indeed :-)
07:39<kennyngston>I have openttd configured globally, so its in my docker.. thats what i want to overwrite. i dont want to open up a terminal every time i wanna play
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07:48<jonty-comp>i'm sure someone has a ppa of betas somewhere
07:49<@planetmaker>openttd itself distributs debs and rpms....
07:49<jonty-comp>also that
07:49<jonty-comp>but ppas update automagically :P
07:51-!-mode/#openttd [+v Alberth] by ChanServ
07:51-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.3, 1.3.0-beta2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
07:51-!-mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
07:51-!-mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ
07:51-!-mode/#openttd [+v planetmaker] by ChanServ
07:51-!-mode/#openttd [+v SmatZ] by ChanServ
07:51-!-mode/#openttd [+v Terkhen] by ChanServ
07:51<@Alberth>ubuntu eh, that would be the debian repo, mostly famous for its stability :)
07:51<kennyngston>awesome, now i have zbase installed, and i have no sound :))
07:51<@planetmaker>download a soundset and a music set then :-)
07:52<@planetmaker>also via ingame content download
07:52<kennyngston>yeah i know just saying :)
07:52<kennyngston>also somehow the bigui not working anymore
07:55<kennyngston>hm, wonder, what does the 'palette' option in newgrf does?
07:55<@planetmaker>don't worry about it and leave at default, KenjiE20
07:55<@planetmaker>sorry... kennyngston
07:55<KenjiE20>o.O hehe
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07:56<@planetmaker>o/ KenjiE20 :-)
07:56<kennyngston>im just asking, because ive installed BigUI, but the boxes are still small
07:57<@planetmaker>download != install
07:57<kennyngston>allright then, its in my active lis
07:57<@planetmaker>or rather download != use
07:57<@planetmaker>and only applies to new games
07:58<@planetmaker>though the biggui newgrf... if you like it, use it as static newgrf. That's a bit of a hassle, though
07:58<@planetmaker>exit openttd. find the right openttd.cfg. edit it in the section [newgrf-static]
07:58<@planetmaker>ogfx-biggui =
07:59<jonty-comp>there is annoying lack of software that successfully compiles on ARM
07:59<jonty-comp>read: chromium
07:59<@planetmaker>ah...
07:59<@planetmaker>ogfx-biggui.grf =
07:59<@planetmaker>save openttd.cfg and re-start openttd
07:59<@planetmaker>then it will be used in all games, even multiplayer
08:00<@planetmaker>and you don't need to configure it every time
08:00<kennyngston>hm it says newgrf biggui cant found
08:00<kennyngston>should it be in the newgrf dir?
08:01<@planetmaker>possibly ogfx-biggui/ogfx-biggui.grf =
08:01<@planetmaker>its tar file should be in the newgrf dir or in the content_download/newgrf dir (whether you manually downloaded it or via ingame)
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08:12<kennyngston>how can i delete a newgrf from ingame?
08:12<@planetmaker>from an existing game? Not
08:12<kennyngston>i meant from my computer to force it to re-download
08:13<@planetmaker>why would you do that?
08:13<kennyngston>its the problem with biggui, ive downloaded it from ingame, yet it does not show up wit the other .tar s at the newgrf dir
08:13<kennyngston>not content_download/newgrf, nor /newgrf
08:13<@planetmaker>yes. ingame it's placed in content_download/newgrf
08:14<@planetmaker>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/tags/1.3.0-beta2/readme.txt#L273 <-- checkout places to look for
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08:27<kennyngston>is there a way to increase the font size in game? (biggui only increased menu sizes)
08:28<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_troubleshooting#My_User_Interface_is_too_small_to_read
08:28<kennyngston>thanks
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09:10<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25008 /trunk/src (8 files) (2013-02-17 14:10:15 UTC)
09:10<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Make CargoList::Truncate behave similarly to CargoList::MoveTo, i.e. pass the amount to truncate (fonsinchen)
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09:12<oioio>hi! what do I have to do in order to be able to carry fish after I've installed the ECS Agricultural Vector?
09:13<oioio>on 1.2.3
09:14<frosch123>use a ship set, like "fish"
09:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25009 /trunk/src (3 files) (2013-02-17 14:17:06 UTC)
09:17<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: refactor bits of cargo packet (lists) to reduce duplicated code (fonsinchen)
09:22<oioio>frosch123: awesome, thanks a lot!
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09:32<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/nml_comment.patch <-- it works-ish, but i'm sure there are some validation checks missing
09:32<@planetmaker>he might also want to use an appropriate train and vehicle newgrf... but too late :-)
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>write: comment("test") to insert an actionC into the grf
09:33<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, wouldn't it rather make sense to actionC-ize every comment?
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no, certainly not
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: first of all, normal comments won't survive the preprocessor anyway
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and second, actionC is more for "debug symbols"-ish stuff
09:35<@planetmaker>NML allows normal comments though
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09:35<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but who really uses nml without preprocessor? :p
09:35<@planetmaker>both /* */ and // style iirc
09:35<@planetmaker>there's a number of projects which use it without. Biggest one might be NUTS
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i think it'd be a stupid idea
09:36<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25010 /trunk (9 files in 3 dirs) (2013-02-17 14:36:40 UTC)
09:36<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Add general framework for cargo actions, i.e. loading, transfering, delivering and such, to contain this logic in a single place instead of spread around (fonsinchen)
09:36<@planetmaker>ok, what exactly was the reason that we need actionC? and how do you make sure it shows up where it should?
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i want to "hack" splitting "headers" off grfs to make partial compiles, and i don't, because i hope that nml doesn't rearrange things :)
09:39<@planetmaker>like just appending grfs... how would that work with IDs? very badly, I assume
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>i set explicit IDs for vehicles
09:41<@planetmaker>hm, I see
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09:48<Eddi|zuHause>just the vehicle sorting will probably be problematic
09:49<NGC3982>Can most - if not all - pre-1900 engine NewGRF's be considerd not to be used with inflation?
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>pretty much
09:49<NGC3982>*Changes default strings for the servers*
09:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25011 /trunk/src (7 files in 3 dirs) (2013-02-17 14:50:54 UTC)
09:51<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: allow vehicle transfer and profit text effects to be shown at the same time (fonsinchen)
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>since when does the forum display the time on the join date?
09:54<frosch123>as in microseonds?
09:54<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25012 /trunk/src (12 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-17 14:54:50 UTC)
09:54<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: persistently keep 'reserved' cargo (for full-load improved loading) instead of calculating if for every cycle
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: as in hours and minutes :)
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09:57<V453000>unicorns?
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>do unicorns eat nuts?
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09:58<V453000>sometimes
09:59<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25013 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-17 14:59:27 UTC)
09:59<@DorpsGek>-Feature: show the amount of cargo that has already been reserved by full loading vehicles in the station (fonsinchen)
10:09<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: since forever, afaik
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10:17<kero>hi
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10:21<andythenorth>so one thing I considered for BANDIT is truck convoys
10:21<andythenorth>instead of building 5 trucks
10:21<andythenorth>build 1 convoy
10:22<andythenorth>easier right?
10:26<frosch123>isn't that what trams are for?
10:27<oskari89>Where is "minimize signal distance when drag&dropping" swich in settings (1.3.0 beta2) ?
10:27<oskari89>Can't find it :P
10:28<frosch123>no idea what setting you mean
10:28<oskari89>Oh, found already
10:28<frosch123>maybe the signal density in the signal gui?
10:28<oskari89>Yes, that :)
10:33<oskari89>When drag&dropping in building, the cost should be shown in the place where the dropping ends, not place where dragging starts, i think :P
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc ERROR: "./src/parameters.pnml", line 12: Unrecognized identifier 'REPO_REVISION' encountered <--- what did i make wrong when trying to manually follow the steps the makefile should do?
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>ah, forgot to -D blah in cpp
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc warning: "./src/callbacks.gnml", line 1: Block 'capacity_cb_95_switch' is not referenced, ignoring. <-- where can i suppress this warning?
10:43<frosch123>| grep -v 'is not referenced'
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: | doesn't work on std_err :)
10:43<frosch123>|& grep -v 'is not referenced'
10:44<frosch123>maybe even |2 grep -v 'is not referenced'
10:44<frosch123>never tried to only redirect stderr
10:45<kormer>Anyone have any idea why my CPU usage would be near zero while a lengthy gamescript is executing?
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>kormer: lots of debug output?
10:48<kormer>Not really, it's just looping through and doing a bunch of calculations for every town on the map.
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>soooo... how did makefiles work again?
10:48<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: first thing is to use a proper editor which can distinguish tabs from spaces
10:48<kormer>The length of the calculation is fine as I've got checks to minimize that, but I'm wondering why CPU drops to zero
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>kormer: make more debug output so you know it's doing something?
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: got that :)
10:49<kormer>Oh I did have debug output in there at one point, I took it all out to speed up the ticks
10:49<kormer>Also I have the script pause the game before doing the really long calcs, so Gamescript should be the only thing getting CPU cycles
10:50<@Rubidium>the number of operations that script can do is limited per game loop
10:50<@Rubidium>it should be configurable somewhere
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: currently i make cets.nml out of cets.pnml which includes engines.gnml which includes hundreds of engine.gnml files, now i want to create an engine.(o)nfo file out of every engine.gnml file
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>i guess i must change that in cets.src.dep
10:51<kormer>It could be the sleep function I have in there if opsremaining drops below my threshold now that I think about it
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10:52<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: then assing a variable the value *.gnmp (possibly with paths)
10:52<DanMacK>Hey all
10:53<frosch123>use $subst or similar to replace the file extension with .o
10:53<frosch123>make that the dependency of the output
10:53<frosch123>and then add an implicit rule how to create .o from gnml
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>now where did i hack the deps into? :)
10:53<frosch123>dest: deps \n <tab> commands
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that file is autogenerated
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>i found the code that generates it
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>but not where i put the data into the table :)
10:55<frosch123>well, if your makefile is autogenerated... then you question is not about makefiles :p
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>no, the .deps file is autogenerated
10:56<frosch123>ah, you mean something like "-include foo.dep"
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>i think that's done by some cpp magic
10:56<frosch123>the "-" in front of the include makes it not fail if the file is missing or something like that
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>%.src.dep: %.pnml $(_V) $(CC) -C -M -MF $@ -E -MT $@ - < $<
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>whatever that does :)
10:57<frosch123>it states that foo.src.dep depend on foo.pnml
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>and then a command line that outputs stuff
10:58<frosch123>and is generated by $(_V) $(CC) -C -M -MF foo.src.dep -E -MT foo.src.dep - < foo.pnml
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>so i need to apply pathsubst to that output
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>or i write that file from my script instead of cpp
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11:19<@Alberth>-M typically generates a #include dependency list
11:19<andythenorth>hmm
11:19<andythenorth>can I call cb36 every so many days?
11:20<andythenorth>I have an idea for livestock ships and capacity :P
11:20<NGC3982>Does some of you watch the Nostalgia Critic?
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>i'm now at: make[1]: *** Keine Regel vorhanden, um das Target »src/DR/212.onfo«, benötigt von »cets.grf«, zu erstellen. Schluss.
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>it somehow doesn't want to process the %.onfo: %.onml rule
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>(or maybe i'm editing the wrong file)
11:29<frosch123>usually it's a issue with paths
11:29<frosch123>onfo not being in the same dir as onml
11:30<__ln__>the comma in front of "zu" feels wrong
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: it's an insertion
11:31<frosch123>it's the closing comma to the comma in front
11:31<frosch123>you can also replace them with "-"
11:31<__ln__>oh, then it makes sense
11:31<frosch123>or ( )
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>"um das Target <blah>, [...], zu erstellen"
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11:32<Eddi|zuHause>well, i have %.onfo depend on %.onml, and %.onml depend on %.gnml
11:32<@planetmaker>oh, I missed DanMacK :-(
11:33<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: so you have secondary dependencies
11:33<frosch123>implicit rules only work one step
11:33<frosch123>i think i never succeeded in making two steps work :p
11:33<frosch123>there is something about .secondary
11:34<frosch123>but i failed with that
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>> make src/DR/212.onml
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>src/headers.pnml:2:28: fatal error: src/defines.pnml: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>but the file is there
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure it's horribly confused with paths now :p
11:41<@Alberth>just make 2 rules? %.onfo: %.onml and %.onml: %.gnml
11:41<frosch123>Alberth: make cannot resolve two implicit rules just like that
11:41<frosch123>you have to tell it about the validity of the intermediate files
11:42<@Alberth>.PRECIOUS or so iirc
11:42<frosch123>.PRECIOS: ring :)
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: so how do i do that?
11:43<@Alberth>tbh, I don't understand what frosch is saying, how else do you build chains?
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well, i have these two rules that you said
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>i managed to build the onml out of the gnml, but it still refuses to build the onfo
11:45<frosch123>http://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/html_node/Chained-Rules.html#Chained-Rules
11:46<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2123/
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>ah, i was having a wrong dependency
11:47<frosch123>hmm, last time i tried that, it did not work for me :p
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc ERROR: "lang/english.lng", line 4: Undefined command "VERSION"
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>what have i done now?
11:49<@Alberth>missing entry in custom_tags ?
11:49<@planetmaker>^
11:50<@Alberth>I debug dependency problems with "make -n"
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>but i have not changed anything regarding lang files
11:55<@Alberth>but you may run a different file, or have changed the order of some things
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11:56<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, some dependency seems to have been misplaced
11:56<@Alberth>and if you use PMs makefile, he tends to generate custom_tags, I learned yesterday, so that file is a dependency on .nml (or whatever you push into nmlc)
11:58<@Alberth>hmm, a dependency on the output of nmlc, of course
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12:00<andythenorth>planetmaker: did you have a question for DanMacK?
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes. and that autogeneration seems to be not run
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>for some reason
12:00<andythenorth>I was talking to him on pm
12:00<wakou2>Hi to Alberth and planetmaker
12:00<wakou2>I asked on here earlier about 32bpp amd zoom, and was advised to investigate zbase
12:01<@planetmaker>andythenorth, not directly... more generally
12:01<wakou2>... whoo hooo! Lovely, just the job! Many thanks, to you both and to the devs of zbase
12:01<@planetmaker>sweet that you enjoy it, wakou2
12:01<wakou2>:)
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>weird, when i do make -n he suddenly does something...
12:01<wakou2>Happy wakou )
12:01<@Alberth>wakou2: it is mostly "dev", ie one person :)
12:02<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: make -n just prints what it would do if you type make
12:02<wakou2>Yes I thought that might be the case... Who is he? (she)?
12:02<@Alberth>Zephyris
12:02<wakou2>I will post on 'forum a TY
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yes
12:03<kormer>Does anyone know what the max# of signs an AI can build is?
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: and he would do lots of things
12:03<@Alberth>wakou2: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=61581
12:04<@Alberth>komer the same as you can, but I don't know the limit
12:04<@planetmaker>likely around 64k
12:04<kormer>ok thanks planetmaker
12:04<frosch123>there is no company limit
12:04<frosch123>but an overall lmit
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>kormer: one per tick :)
12:05<kormer>one per tick eh? That's probably my problem there
12:05<V453000>:DDD
12:05<V453000>me imagines 64k signs
12:05<@Alberth>@calc 65000 / 73
12:05<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 890.410958904
12:06<@Alberth>:D
12:06<kormer>Off to make a signs build queue...
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>kormer: the AI is automatically suspended until the end of the tick when a command is executed
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>command is anything that would change the map
12:07<frosch123>maybe even longer depending on the "ai construction speed" setting
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12:07<kormer>Eddi, does that also apply to gamescripts?
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes
12:10<kormer>Is there a list of what commands count for the suspension?
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i manually forced making custom_tags.txt now, so it now executes stuff... something must be wrong with a dependency but i can't find out where
12:16<frosch123>kormer: everything that affects the game outside of your script
12:17<frosch123>i.e. everything that would need communicating to clients in a multiplayer game
12:17<@peter1138>hmm, drama's over i guess
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>so, again, how do i suppress the referencing warning??
12:18<kormer>Thanks froschl123
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>somethin is really slow in the CPP step...
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>errr.... i don't get this one...
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2124/
12:28<V453000>peter1138: there is a tycoon-war now instead :D what that means, dont ask me
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>it makes the file, and then decides to delete it??
12:28<@peter1138>apparently
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12:33<Eddi|zuHause>ah, it's just deleting intermediate files after it's done
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it seems to execute "$(REPO_REVISION)" for every ${CC} call individually, which is really slow, is there a way to cache this result for the whole make run?
12:41<@planetmaker>well. In principle it could be cached. Though REPO_REVISION shouldn't be really slow
12:42<@Alberth>assign it to a makefile variable?
12:42<@planetmaker>that is a makefile variable ;-)
12:42<@Alberth>assign the result to a makefile variable? :)
12:43<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, usually there's only one call to CC... is CETS different?
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>now it is :)
12:43<@planetmaker>and REPO_REVISION only once assigned thus, too
12:44<@planetmaker>it's somewhere in makefile_def or so
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i guess it's assigning the command to the variable, not the result of the command
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>so the command is evaluated every time the variable is used
12:47<@planetmaker>uhm... *should* not... but...
12:47<@planetmaker>hm... maybe ?= does that
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>and i gather there's no way to suppress individual nml warnings, only all of them?
12:47<@planetmaker>try := instead
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>yep, insanely faster now :)
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>hmzzz... nmlc ERROR: "<stdin>", line 7: Unrecognized identifier 'pruss_A2_0gfx_switch_1' encountered
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>ah, oh... i think it's the "reuse graphics" feature :/
12:59<@Rubidium>is nml already doing that?
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>no, i'm doing that
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>i'm referencing the graphics switch of another vehicle by a special table entry, but now i must have both these vehicles in the same file
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise i have nothing to reference
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>so... this step seems to work so far (save the custom_tags.txt)
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>now about combining the .onfo to one .nfo
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>there must be some awk magic that does that
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>"ignore all lines of <file> until you reach <text>"
13:16<@Rubidium>yup
13:17<@Rubidium>something similar is used in the squirrel glue generator
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>awk 'BEGIN {tmp=0} {if (tmp) print $0} /__END_HEADERS__/{tmp=1}'
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>that seems to work
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13:34<Eddi|zuHause>what was again the difference between : and :: rules in makefiles?
13:39<+glx>http://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/make.html#Double_002dColon
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>so : is "all or nothing" and :: is "i don't care"?
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25014 /trunk/src/lang (13 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-17 18:46:05 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 4 changes by arnau
13:46<@DorpsGek>english_AU - 12 changes by mrtux
13:46<@DorpsGek>english_US - 5 changes by Rubidium
13:46<@DorpsGek>finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
13:46<@DorpsGek>french - 5 changes by glx
13:46<@DorpsGek>german - 5 changes by planetmaker
13:46<@DorpsGek>greek - 24 changes by Evropi
13:46<frosch123>there can only be one : rule with instructions
13:46<@DorpsGek>irish - 14 changes by ioo5
13:46<@DorpsGek>korean - 5 changes by telk5093
13:46<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 4 changes by terjesc
13:46<@DorpsGek>norwegian_nynorsk - 65 changes by terjesc
13:46<@DorpsGek>gaelic - 232 changes by GunChleoc
13:46<@DorpsGek>tamil - 205 changes by aswn
13:47<frosch123>you can use multiple : rules to add dependencies, but only one may have commands
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>aha
13:47<frosch123>:: seems to allow multiple rules with commands, which might be executed in order, or maybe even in parallel
13:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25015 /trunk (6 files in 3 dirs) (2013-02-17 18:48:05 UTC)
13:48<@DorpsGek>-Change: Tamil migrated to 'finished' status
13:48<frosch123>there are also a : b : c rules, which is something about pattern matching, but i don't think you mean those
13:48<frosch123>finally there are a : b | c rules :)
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>what if i have a specific rule for "cets.nfo" and one for "%.nfo"?
13:50<frosch123>i think explicit rules always take precedence over implicit rules
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>that should work
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13:54<@planetmaker>frosch123, the order with :: rules is not given
13:57<Markk>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Schmalspurbahn_in_Dresden_R0011100.jpg
13:57<Markk>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Parkeisenbahn_Dresden_blaue_Lokomotive_2008-08-31.jpg
13:57<Markk>http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Parkeisenbahn_Dresden_rote_Lokomotive_2008-08-31.jpg
13:58<Markk>This is seriously awesome.
13:58<Markk>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresdner_Parkeisenbahn
14:03<NGC3982>Hih
14:03<NGC3982>Toot-toot.
14:07-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
14:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so can you compile CETS yet in a sane time? o_O
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: not "sane", and i haven't finished the final combination step yet
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>but at least it won't use insane amounts of memory anymore
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>and i can use -j<N>
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: yes, several east german cities have such "toy" railways
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: their primary intention was to encourage young people to learn railway-related stuff.
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>they're typically run by real railway staff at the top level, and voluntary youths at the base levels
14:20<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_railway
14:21<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: Nice
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's the rough jist of it
14:21<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: Wish that we had something like that here.
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: should have grown up in a socialist country, eh? :p
14:22<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: But overall, isn't German people interested in trains?
14:22<Markk>Sweden has been run by a social democratic party for most of the last century.
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: certainly more german people are interested in cars than in trains...
14:22<Markk>Mkay
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: not the same thing :p
14:23<Markk>No, no really.
14:23<Markk>But we have a socialistic party as well.
14:23<Markk>"Left party", they changed their name from "Left party the communists".
14:23<Markk>:)
14:24<andythenorth>hey look
14:24<andythenorth>a HEQS tram with passengers http://narrow.parovoz.com/images/MISC/Bakuriani.jpg
14:24<frosch123>hehe, the left party here also changes their name regulary :p
14:24<Markk>:D
14:24<frosch123>i think they are with the 4th or 5th name since 1990
14:25<frosch123>though for some reason after two left parties unioned some years ago, they did not name themself "union party" :p
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>"SED" certainly didn't flow anymore since 1990 :)
14:26<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but it would have been funny if pds and wasg would union in to a "sozialisistische einheitspartei" :p
14:26<Markk>And until 2005 the then current leader of the left party said that he was a communist.
14:26<Markk>That was fun.
14:26<Markk>He was an idiot.
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: so he's not an idiot anymore, not a communist anymore, or just doesn't call himself a communist anymore?
14:27<Markk>Last option.
14:27<Markk>Still an idiot.
14:28<Markk>A lot of double standard in that man.
14:29<Markk>He was the leader of our most leftish party, but his kids go to private schools (that he doesn't think should exist), he got some sort of operation and went to a private clinic (which he also think shouldn't exist).
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>if only having rich left people was the only problem of the left party :p
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>... or the social democrats for that matter :p
14:30<andythenorth>narrow gauge former soviet stuff is awesome http://narrow.parovoz.com/images/peu1-001.jpg
14:30<andythenorth>HEQS tram? :P
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>STOP DISTRACTING MEE
14:31<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: haha
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>the image doesn't load, anyway
14:31<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: Not the only issue, no. :)
14:31<Markk>andythenorth: aw
14:31<Markk>andythenorth: Cute
14:31<andythenorth>http://narrow.parovoz.com/images/MISC/IO-KR-stojaniv.jpg
14:32<andythenorth>I should make some random graphical variations for existing tram engines :P
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, by refit subtypes :p
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>//!!Warning (86): Offset 4: Testing nonexistant variable 62.
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>err, what?
14:44<frosch123>old nforenum
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>//!!Error (141): ID 03 30 out of valid range (00..73).
14:44<frosch123>ancient nforenum
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>NFORenum 6.0.0 r924 - Copyright (C) 2004-2012 by Dale McCoy
14:45-!-Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
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14:45<Eddi|zuHause>//!!Warning (100): Default ID appears earlier in sprite.
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>//!!Warning (170): Default result cannot be reached.
14:46<frosch123>everyone disabled 100 :) it's stupid
14:46<frosch123>933: -Add: Missing action 2 vehicle vars 4B, 4C, 61, 62.
14:46<frosch123>no idea about the vehicle ids, maybe noone ever changed that :p
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>so where's Ammler and why did he not yet provide an update? :)
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>//!!Fatal Error (46): Invalid action byte.
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what that even means
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>that may be an actual error though
14:55<andythenorth>does nmlc encode in DOS palette by default? I've forgotten
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i think so
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>hm, suddenly all warnings are gone?
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc ERROR: "scripts/Makefile.nml", line 1: Syntax error, unexpected token "USE_NML"
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>errr...
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15:00<Eddi|zuHause>i got GRF!
15:00<andythenorth>\o/
15:00<Supercheese>how do i got grf
15:01<andythenorth>now do it for FIRS :)
15:01<frosch123>next level is duke, isn't it?
15:01<Supercheese>i can has modz?
15:01<Supercheese>also, what's all this about GRFCrawler-integration?
15:01<frosch123>what's about it?
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm, grf doesn't do anything :/
15:02<Supercheese>something like a new button, "Find missing content on GRFCrawler"?
15:02<Supercheese>browser link to GRFID-searches?
15:03<fonsinchen>velveeta
15:03<andythenorth>'even more content'
15:03<andythenorth>which isn't strictly true
15:03<andythenorth>but could be
15:03<Supercheese>or will it be search-by-name?
15:03<frosch123>both
15:03<andythenorth>hmm
15:04<frosch123>via grfid when missing files
15:04<frosch123>via name when searching just for fun
15:04<andythenorth>fricking Goods doesn't fricking double capacity in my fricking ships :)
15:04-!-MinchinWeb [~6034fac3@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
15:04<andythenorth>I've forgotten how to fix that
15:04<andythenorth>cb36, do it manually?
15:04<Supercheese>Hmm, so if you are missing many grfs, will it open separate tabs/windows or search for all at once, somehow?
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there are two different capacity callbacks
15:04<andythenorth>I'd better visit the docs
15:04<andythenorth>instead of my memory
15:04<frosch123>Supercheese: that is nothing new
15:05<frosch123>grfcrawler can do that for years
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think nml only uses one of them
15:05<frosch123>http://www.openttd.org/en/server/67840 <- every server page has a link at the bottom to search for all grfs
15:05<Supercheese>Jeez, I never even tried
15:05<frosch123>it's about triggering that from inside ottd
15:05<Supercheese>Go figure
15:06*Supercheese should pay more attention... but he is all out of funds to pay with :P
15:07<andythenorth>ho ho, here's that diagram frosch123 made
15:07<andythenorth>all it tells me is why I'm confused :D
15:07<frosch123>just pick the right one of the two diagrams :p
15:08<andythenorth>I think misc flag 5 is cleared
15:08<andythenorth>I can't see it set anywhere
15:09*peter1138 clears andythenorth's flags
15:09<andythenorth>oh thanks :)
15:09<andythenorth>how kind
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>so i have 4285 times error 141 :)
15:09<andythenorth>so
15:10<andythenorth>can I check the capacity multiplier of the cargo being refitted to?
15:10<andythenorth>in a vehicle refit varact 2 chain
15:10<frosch123>i don't think so
15:11<andythenorth>so am I missing a more obvious way to do this than....read the code for every grf that provides cargos, and make a big table of cargo capacity multipliers?
15:11<frosch123>just set bit 5 :p
15:12<frosch123>then set a generic capacity via property or cb 36
15:12<frosch123>and set specific capacities via cb15 if you really want to
15:12<frosch123>though i doubt you really want to
15:12<andythenorth>oops
15:13<andythenorth>am I missing the part where nml can set bit 5?
15:13<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Properties_common_to_all_vehicle_types
15:13<frosch123>misc_flags
15:14<frosch123>maybe it misses a define for the constant
15:14<frosch123>anyway, nml messes with cb 15 and 36, i don't think they have fixed that yet
15:14<andythenorth>I don't mind handling this explicitly
15:15<andythenorth>I just don't know how I get a canonical list of cargo capacity multipliers :P
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>real 4m14.176s
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>user 17m9.571s
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>sys 0m44.141s
15:15<frosch123>get more cores :)
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>i got vehicles now, but graphics look broken...
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>need to check out whether that was the case before as well :p
15:16<andythenorth>would it be easier to teach openttd to load multiple grfs from one container? :P
15:16<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25016 trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp (2013-02-17 20:16:49 UTC)
15:16<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5476]: integer overflow in UpdateStationRating (fonsinchen)
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>the "sort(FEAT_TRAINS, ...)" thing, that can work with raw vehicle ids, right?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think the total time got longer, because it now has to process the headers multiple times
15:20<andythenorth>hmm
15:20<andythenorth>one grfid on the container, runtime linking :P
15:20*andythenorth has no idea what he is talking about
15:21<Snail>apart from nml, what's the difference between using cb36 and cb15 for capacity?
15:21<Snail>coz I always use cb36 but wonder if I should use cb15 instead
15:21<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VehicleRefitting <- Snail: have fun :)
15:21<andythenorth>:)
15:21<frosch123>anyway, the difference is that cb 15 sets the explicit capacity
15:21<andythenorth>hmm
15:21<andythenorth>so industries don't produce double the amount of goods
15:21<andythenorth>compared to other cargos
15:21<frosch123>while cb 36 sets a reference capacity which is altered by a capacity multiplier depending on the cargo
15:22<Snail>ohh I see
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15:22<frosch123>so, if cb 15 returns 10, then it is 10 for coal, 10 for pax, 10 for goods
15:22<frosch123>if cb 36 return 10, then it might be 40 pax, 20 goods, 10 coal
15:22<Snail>that's why, for instance, if I set capacity = X through cb36, it gets halved if it's goods
15:22<Snail>(or doubled, can't remember)
15:22<frosch123>in general, cb15 is meant for cargos which the grf knows about, while cb36 is about cargos which the grf does not know about
15:23<Snail>while cb15 always sets the final figure, right?
15:23<Snail>ok, I see
15:23<andythenorth>for Goods production, should I double the amount produced by an industry?
15:23<frosch123>similiar to the explicit refit masks for specific cargos, compared to general cargo classes for unknown cargos
15:23<frosch123>[21:22] <Snail> that's why, for instance, if I set capacity = X through cb36, it gets halved if it's goods <- yeah, but unless you set misc flag 5 it is actually kind of random what you get
15:24<frosch123>since it depends on the default cargo type of the vehicle
15:24<Snail>frosch123: well, I assume it depends on the default cargo you set for that vehicle?
15:24<Snail>so for instance I have a vehicle whose default cargo is mail
15:24<Snail>'
15:25<Snail>if it's refitted to passengers, I modify the capacity using cb36
15:25<frosch123>yeah, but if your default cargo is not available, it will go for "first refittable"
15:25<frosch123>and then you have no idea whether it will be coal or goods
15:25<Snail>and I have to put 20 to actually get 40 pax
15:25<frosch123>and depending on that all capacities may change
15:25<Snail>right, I understand
15:25<Snail>but I guess pax or mail should always be safe choices? :)
15:26<frosch123>yeah, it mostly works :p
15:26<frosch123>it's a total mess, but it works in most cases somehow
15:27<frosch123>but if people run into a corner case, they are completely lost :p
15:27<Snail>this clears a doubt of mine. So probably this is the source of the bug that was reported on my thread :p
15:27-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-205-63.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:27<Snail>so actually cb15 gives you more control
15:27<frosch123>depends
15:28<Snail>I mean, if you want to refit to specific kinds of cargo
15:28<frosch123>for once unless you set flag 5, cb15 is not run in purchase list
15:28<frosch123>which will result in bugs
15:28<Snail>flag 5?
15:28<frosch123>furthermore using cb15 puts a decision into the vehicle grf, which should be set by the cargo/industry grf
15:28<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VehicleRefitting <- misc flag 5
15:28<frosch123>it's my attempt of fixing cb36
15:28<Snail>frosch123: heh, not a bad point
15:29<frosch123>but it seems as long as the old method somewhat works, people don't use it :p
15:30<andythenorth>I use whatever nml does :)
15:31<Snail>heh
15:31-!-Generalcamo [~Generalca@h204.62.90.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #openttd
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then implement bit 5 in nml :)
15:33<andythenorth>yeah
15:33<andythenorth>that :)
15:35<frosch123>issue 4106 :)
15:37<kormer>What's a common reason Openttd wouldn't recognize a script in a tar, but will recognize when extracted to folders?
15:37<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25017 trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp (2013-02-17 20:37:18 UTC)
15:37<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5466]: crash after bootstrap download of 32bits base set due to referencing a deleted mutex
15:37<frosch123>kormer: no subdirectory inside the tar
15:37<kormer>I've got a subdir
15:38<frosch123>the tar must not be compressed
15:38<kormer>Let me check that
15:38<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25018 /trunk/src (smallmap_gui.cpp smallmap_gui.h) (2013-02-17 20:38:35 UTC)
15:38<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Move SmallMapWindow declaration to header (fonsinchen)
15:42<andythenorth>so
15:42<andythenorth>vehicles doing capacity correctly haul half as much goods as other cargos
15:42<andythenorth>so industries should produce half as much?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>cets.nfo is 15MB
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>cets.grf 7MB
15:44<frosch123>and the .png? :p
15:44<frosch123>anyway, the pseudo sprites are compressed with factor 3
15:44<frosch123>two hex digits one space into one uncompressed byte
15:45<kormer>thanks frosch, not sure if the compression was it, but creating a new tar from scratch fixed it
15:45<Supercheese>andythenorth: I was under the impression that goods and other freight were 1:1
15:45<Supercheese>Vehicle carries 50 tons of coal, 50 goods
15:45<Supercheese>etc.
15:46<andythenorth>nah
15:46<andythenorth>crates
15:46<Supercheese>Varies by vehicle set?
15:46<andythenorth>crate is 2t in default game
15:46<andythenorth>vehicle sets handle it poorly
15:46<Supercheese>crate is 2t?!
15:46<andythenorth>check original road vehicles
15:46<frosch123>no, crate is not 2t
15:46<Supercheese>Oh man, haven't used those in years
15:47<Supercheese>default vehicles are so 1995
15:47<frosch123>but 1 crate takes the space of 2t coal
15:47<andythenorth>ah volume, not weight :)
15:47<andythenorth>'tonnage' in shipping terms
15:47<Supercheese>Well, pfff, weights
15:47<andythenorth>just to confuse the issue :)
15:47<Supercheese>in OTTD a hopper car can, in the same volume, carry the same weight of two substances with very different densities
15:47<Supercheese>magick
15:48<Supercheese>weights are silly
15:48<frosch123>well, industry grfs are not used to set the capacity multiplier property :p
15:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25019 trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp (2013-02-17 20:48:52 UTC)
15:48<@DorpsGek>-Fix: GCC doesn't seem to care if one does Class::Class::Function (thinks it is a function), whereas MSVC thinks it is the constructor
15:48<frosch123>they still expect vehicle grfs to fix the issue, though vehicle grfs just cannot do it :p
15:49<andythenorth>iirc, FIRS sets the multipliers correctly
15:50<andythenorth>but really, for game balance, I should halve production of cargos with a high capacity multiplier
15:50<andythenorth>no?
15:50<frosch123>why? you just need more vehicles then
15:50<frosch123>big ships and such :)
15:51<andythenorth>really big ships :P
15:51<frosch123>industry input and output should have about the same mass (with some loss), but usually a big increase in volume
15:51<frosch123>industries output a lot of air :p
15:52<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25020 /trunk/src (smallmap_gui.cpp smallmap_gui.h) (2013-02-17 20:51:55 UTC)
15:52<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: refactor SmallMapWindow to make adding map types easier and unduplicate some code (fonsinchen)
15:53<andythenorth>hmm
15:53<andythenorth>sometimes nml is spooky
15:53<andythenorth>it's too easy
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i have a dependency problem
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>it should run a target after all autogenerated targets have been created
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>but i can't seem to have that represented in dependency rules
15:55<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25021 trunk/src/smallmap_gui.h (2013-02-17 20:55:26 UTC)
15:55<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: make a lot of SmallMapWindow members protected (fonsinchen)
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>hm... seems to work now, but i have no clue how :/
15:57<andythenorth>herp
15:57<andythenorth>this goods thing messes with my nice set balance for Squid :)
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16:04<Eddi|zuHause>so... what's nml's acceptance status of my patch?
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>or alternatively, how do i modify my repo so it applies the patch to nml? :)
16:05<@Rubidium>acceptance is futile?
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>(on the compile farm)
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16:12<Eddi|zuHause>well, i can't push this as long as nml doesn't support actionC :)
16:13<@Rubidium>push enml (Eddi's NML), and depend on it. Then assign Ammler to the CF bug report for not have enml support ;)
16:15<@peter1138>can i reply to FS#5475 sarcastically?
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16:25<andythenorth>one way to find out eh?
16:25<andythenorth>simple empiricism
16:28<andythenorth>herp
16:28<andythenorth>making 30 ships is more fun
16:28<andythenorth>than making 60
16:29*Rubidium remembers a patch where you could set the number of vehicles to clone
16:29<@Rubidium>then it'd be equally fun I'd reckon
16:30<andythenorth>only if that also creates my newgrf ;)
16:30<andythenorth>which is what I was talking about ;)
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16:31<LordAro>heyo
16:32<andythenorth>I have done some naughty
16:32<Zuu>Hmm, in Swedish, I think "transfer" will translate into two different words depending on if you look at it from a public transport perspective or if you have the freight perspective.
16:33<andythenorth>it would be wise to read the refit capacities wisely for Squid :D
16:33<Zuu>Eg. the PuT translation will not work for freight. (and the other way around)
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i should have put "Urgent" or "Immediate" into the priority :p
16:34<@Terkhen>good night
16:34<Zuu>Previously it appears that the swedish translation have used public transport methodology, but is now using a word that works for transfer of money but not for transfer of goods or people.
16:34<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4991
16:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I have commit rights on nml, but I'm not competent to review that :(
16:35<Zuu>And usage of 'transfer' in the game, is usually income due to transfer of goods/people.
16:35<andythenorth>I mostly just commit fixes to constants
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't think that you would :p
16:37<andythenorth>sorry
16:37<Zuu>Maybe I'll stick to the monetary 'transfer' for now to not favor freight nor PuT termonology.
16:39<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: check that the reduce results in an object of the right expression class
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16:42<@Alberth>My biggest concern is that NFO comment is really too low level for NML
16:45<Zuu>Is this really corret English? "Play sound effect at the end of a year summarising the company's performance during the year compared to the previous year"?
16:46<Zuu>I read that as that the sound effect is summarising the company's performance, but that sounds wierd.
16:46<Zuu>weird*
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc ERROR: "test.nml", line 20: Comment must be a string literal.
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>seems to work
16:47<@Alberth>Zuu: sentence does not make sense, imho
16:47<@peter1138>Zuu, sort of
16:47<@peter1138>the sound is different depending on your performance
16:48<Zuu>Oh, that feature I didn't knew of.
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>i always wondered why it played a different sound like every one out of ten times
16:48<Supercheese>Profitable sound vs. unprofitable sound
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>(i believe that was already in TTO)
16:49<Supercheese>TTO/TTD feature IIRC
16:49<Supercheese>ninjad
16:50<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: assuming you mostly copy/pasted the classes, it looks ok at first sight. However, an NML dev should decide whether having NFO comment in NML is feasible.
16:50<Zuu>Oh, well I've now translated that string to something that sound equaly weird in Swedish :-p
16:51<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: (not very relevant, but I am quite not-convinced of that)
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16:55<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well the only (short-term) alternative i could see would for me to add some weird no-op-ish sequence that i know the NFO output of, to find out where the header ends
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17:01<@Alberth>My problem mostly originate from the fact that NML may want not give garantees about the place of such a primitive, as it introduces limits in implementation choices (which is something a NML user should not be bothered about, imho)
17:02<@peter1138>why do you need an nfo comment?
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: to put a "headers end here" marker that i can parse out of the nfo output
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: then i can strip this part, and combine the grf out of the nfo fragments
17:03<@peter1138>mixing nfo & nml seems like the wrong thing to do :p
17:03<Supercheese>Never mess with nfo, problem solved :)
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: avoiding the 3GB memory usage nmlc needs when parsing a 15MB nml file
17:03<@peter1138>o_O
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17:04<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: well, otherwise, one needs to implement nmlc in an efficient language :p
17:05<@peter1138>just add more ram/swap ;D
17:05<frosch123>night
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17:05<@planetmaker>good night
17:06<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: or implement partial nfo compilation + linking
17:06<andythenorth>space before subtype or not (refit menu)
17:06<andythenorth>?
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes
17:06<Supercheese>for most recent OTTD, supply a space
17:06<Supercheese>well, for all versions actually
17:06<@peter1138>Passengers(up to you)
17:06<Wolf01>'night
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17:07<andythenorth>done
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17:16<andythenorth>Squid is getting a bit fine-graind
17:16<andythenorth>grained *
17:16<Supercheese>fine-maized
17:16<Supercheese>fine-cerealed
17:16<andythenorth>indeed
17:17<andythenorth>herp
17:17<andythenorth>might need to check if a cargo is defined in a game
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17:20<andythenorth>hmm
17:20<andythenorth>can't find any vehicle vars to check if a cargo (label) exists
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17:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: action D can, afaik
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>so you assign it to a parameter, then you can read that parameter from an action2
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17:26*andythenorth looks in docs
17:26<andythenorth>GRM?
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>no
17:27<andythenorth>I'm looking for 'active cargo labels' or similar
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>there is certainly railtype_defined, so osmething similar should exist for cargos
17:28<andythenorth>wouldn't it depend on grf-load order?
17:28<Supercheese>"should:
17:28<Supercheese>"*
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: grfs are loaded in "stages" so that checks like these are possible
17:29<andythenorth>so the docs tell me :)
17:29<andythenorth>interesting
17:30<andythenorth>sounds like a feature request if not there
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17:32<andythenorth>hmm
17:32<andythenorth>maybe I can just do this with purchase capacity, checking the actual installed cargo
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17:33<andythenorth>time for bed
17:33<andythenorth>bye
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18:08<Ammler>[22:13] <Rubidium> push enml (Eddi's NML), and depend on it. Then assign Ammler to the CF bug report for not have enml support <-- devzone should support that without bugreport :-P
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18:09<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: the grfcodec/nforenum that i got from your repo doesn't seem to be very up-to-date
18:10<Ammler>your?
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>i mean the opensuse repo
18:11<Supercheese>Hmm, I keep getting FIRS gas stations building by rivers/lakes
18:11<Ammler>well, since opengfx doesn't need it anymore...
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>how is that a reason? :)
18:13<Ammler>it's at 6.0.1, is there a newer
18:13<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: well, you can always submit a update
18:15<Ammler>according to the newsfeed 6.0.1 is newest
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18:15<Eddi|zuHause>hm, then my repo settings are wrong?
18:16<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: if you want to use nightly, add grfcodec as requires
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i don't find it here: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/openttdcoop/openSUSE_12.2/
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>at least not for "sane" architectures
18:17<Ammler>it's in games since around a year alreadey
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i have the games repo
18:18<Ammler>hmm, there is 6.0.3
18:18<Ammler>I will push the update tonight
18:19<Ammler>but well, since no package depends on it anymore, it is kinda low prio
18:20<Ammler>maybe I should better drop it
18:22<Ammler>at least drop from games and move back to home
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>what should that solve?
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18:30<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: well, if you don't find grfcodec in the official repo anymore, you look somewhere else
18:30<Ammler>also it seems 6.0.3 doesn't have built yet
18:31<Ammler>so 6.0.2 is last available
18:32<Ammler>pushed, should be available in around 4 hours on the mirrors
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18:34<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: btw in the home repo you have a stray renum 5.something
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>(nforenum is now part of grfcodec)
18:35<Ammler>I guess, that is just a simlink to nforenum :-)
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>even then, 5.whatever is ancient
18:39<Ammler>doesn't matter, it depends on grfcodec
18:41<Ammler>register on obs and I add you to the project, you are welcome to contribute :-P
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18:47<Generalcamo>Would it be possible to add in "Luxery" bonuses for express cars? Say, if the train looks pretty?
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you can have cargo "age" slower, i.e. get more profit at the end of the journey
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19:06<Generalcamo>Can I do it per-cargo?
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19:11<Eddi|zuHause>that depends on your skills :)
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20:16<Generalcamo>Is it possible to change industry to accept different inputs for a single output over time?
20:16<Generalcamo>For example, a toy factory accepts only wood until 1960, when it accepts plastic too. In 1980, it stops accepting wood
20:17<Pikka>it is possible, although the industry window will show it always accepts both wood and plastic, so it may be confusing for players.
20:17<Pikka>--always processes wood and plastic
20:18<Generalcamo>I'm trying to create a mod that expands the industrial and transportation portion of the game. From 1811 to present day.
20:18<Generalcamo>Which is why I am asking these questions..
20:24*Pikka bbl
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20:25<Supercheese>Generalcamo: sounds possible so far
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23:35*Supercheese wants NML station support
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23:50<Bad_Brett>*Bad_Brett agrees
---Logclosed Mon Feb 18 00:00:53 2013