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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-18

---Logopened Mon Feb 18 00:00:53 2013
00:25<Bad_Brett>it's quite surprising that it hasn't been done yet... i guess it must be rather complex stuff
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00:53<Snail>why don't you try m4nfo? it can do stations
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01:13<Supercheese>Interesting idea
01:13*Supercheese reads the m4nfo manual
01:17<Supercheese>seems loads easier than raw NFO
01:19<Supercheese>I might go write a station grf in m4nfo :)
01:27<__ln__>ave caseus
01:28<@peter1138>i still remember m4 being the tool used to configure sendmail
01:29<@peter1138>so i'm phobic to it
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01:30<Supercheese>ave logarithmus naturalis
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02:20<andythenorth>orangensaft
02:22<Pikka>don't they
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02:25<andythenorth>not always
02:25<andythenorth>but often
02:27<Pikka>andy, sounds like my problems with capacity for non-pax in av8, cb36 for capacity in the buy menu should fix it.
02:28<Pikka>and not in the buy menu, too :)
02:28<andythenorth>yeah, going to try it
02:31<andythenorth>yeah that works
02:31<andythenorth>easy peasy
02:32<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/2125/
02:32<andythenorth>pikka you'd have done it *just* like that, right? :)
02:32<Pikka>almost exactly
02:33<andythenorth>barring the details
02:33<andythenorth>perhaps every char or so would have been different
02:33<Pikka>barring the fact that I'd have done it in nfo, yes
02:34<andythenorth>I should write a higher-level abstraction of nml to nfo
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02:37<andythenorth>Pikka: any more screenies? o_O
02:37<andythenorth>or does asking annoy you?
02:37<Pikka>of anything in particular?
02:37<Supercheese>zeppelins :3
02:37<andythenorth>10cc
02:38<dihedral>greetings
02:38<Pikka>I've got the Mk1s for the british trains in, that's about the only progress since yesterday :)
02:38<Pikka>hello dihedral
02:38<andythenorth>in the web industry, there is a phenomen called "client is sitting at desk hitting 'refresh'"
02:38<andythenorth>which can be lovely and enthusiastic
02:38<andythenorth>or tedious
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02:39<andythenorth>twof*sh, but not Fish 2
02:40<andythenorth>all the best ships are now being built in Canada
02:40<andythenorth>or so I hope :)
02:40<Pikka>www.pikkarail.com/junk/andytroll.png
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02:41<Twofish>north noth south?
02:41<andythenorth>have coaches always had grey windows? I missed that
02:41<Pikka>the white on the coaches is 2cc
02:41<Pikka>no, "usually" they have blueypurple windows
02:41<andythenorth>blurple
02:42<Twofish>north not* south? // Not easy to spell when just arrived work... Tired...
02:43<andythenorth>there is a key here
02:44<@peter1138>andythetroll?
02:44<Pikka>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5475 D:
02:44<@peter1138>:)
02:45<@peter1138>if CB14D does it, why the report?
02:45<andythenorth>I am trying to think what I could do with that
02:45<@peter1138>if CB14D doesn't do it, then the report wants something to not do it
02:45<Pikka>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5474 it has a partner
02:45<@peter1138>therefore, task is complete :D
02:45<andythenorth>CB14D - houses
02:46<Pikka>yes
02:46<@peter1138>my solution: just waste an engine id
02:46<Pikka>:)
02:46<@peter1138>there's only 65534 of them after all
02:46<andythenorth>hmm
02:47*Pikka is hoping for a resolution to http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5473 before tackling a new sound system for 10CC
02:47<andythenorth>Ferry (Steam) < 1940 | Ferry (Diesel) >= 1940
02:47<andythenorth>see I could use that new cb o_O
02:47<Pikka>the way I do sounds at the moment dates back to Pineapple and the original UKRS, it's sounding a bit tired to me :)
02:47<Pikka>yes andy
02:47<Pikka>or just "Ferry" :P
02:48<andythenorth>that too
02:48<andythenorth>new names, or ships with 2 holds?
02:48<andythenorth>pick one :P
02:48<andythenorth>or none
02:48<Pikka>two holds, deffo
02:50<andythenorth>owing to our inimitable ability to add convolutions and complexity in the name of future unknown possible use cases, it will probably be argued extensively that merely 2 holds is not enough, and that holds should be arbitrarily extensible, limited only by addressable memory, and that a GUI must support this, but also none can be found
02:50<andythenorth>^ complicated is bad :P
02:51<Pikka>articulated ships
02:51<Pikka>would be the best way to do it
02:52<andythenorth>how did your articulated met-cam things pan out?
02:52<Supercheese>articulated everything
02:52<Supercheese>articulated planes
02:52<@peter1138>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5454
02:52<Supercheese>articulated houses
02:53<Supercheese>articulated industries
02:53<@peter1138>an articulated ship
02:53<Pikka>fake-articulated trains are bad
02:53<Pikka>but ships it would be fine, because you can't string ships together
02:54<Supercheese>why are fake-articulated trains bad? side effects with acceleration calculations?
02:54<andythenorth>k
02:54<andythenorth>bad gui?
02:55<Pikka>use var 10 to show special "hold" sprites in the refit and vehicle detail windows
02:56<Pikka>of course, you can't (afaik) currently refit articulated parts seperately, that would need to change ;)
02:57<Supercheese>only trains have the refit-separately thingy IIRC
02:57<Supercheese>would be nice to e.g. refit FIRS trams separately
02:57<Supercheese>half livestock half grain etc.
02:57<andythenorth>furry trams
02:57<Supercheese>drama trams
02:58<Supercheese>Capacity: 15 Posts of Drama
02:58<@peter1138>Source: ozTrans, Destination: tt-forums
02:59<@peter1138>let's see who's reading the logs :D
03:00<andythenorth>troll1138
03:00<Pikka>isn't he
03:00<andythenorth>what larks
03:01<andythenorth>so do articulated ships
03:01<andythenorth>and I'll redesign Squid again
03:01<andythenorth>everyone's a winner
03:02<Pikka>everyone's a wiener
03:02<@peter1138>super-mega-articulated-container-ships
03:02<@peter1138>auto-refittable
03:02<@peter1138>transfer-anything-ships
03:02<Pikka>yes
03:02<Pikka>cheap at half the price
03:03<Pikka>also once you patch that they will go faster than 80mph
03:03<Supercheese>Multi-hold articulated ekranoplan
03:03<@peter1138>yes, like in FS#5454
03:03<Supercheese>400 mpg ships
03:03<Supercheese>mph*
03:03<Pikka>then no-one will need to use anything but ships ever again
03:03<@peter1138>hmm, i should push that branch
03:06<Pikka>FISH Donald Campbell edition
03:08*Pikka isn't sure he believes in water and land speed records set by jet-powered vehicles
03:08<andythenorth>ship-wagons?
03:08<Pikka>surely there's a point where you stop being a boat or a car and become an aircraft that's only incidentally in contact with the ground/water?
03:09<andythenorth>hydrofoil?
03:09<andythenorth>also
03:09<andythenorth>ship-wagons?
03:09<Pikka>yes
03:09<Pikka>well
03:09<Pikka>no
03:09<andythenorth>could have dreadnought hauling a lot of barges
03:09<andythenorth>would be awesome
03:09<andythenorth>ice barges
03:09<andythenorth>capacity falls if you play tropic :P
03:09<Supercheese>dolphin-towed barges
03:09<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk
03:10<Pikka>I think RV wagons were discounted on the grounds that it's "unrealistic" and articulated vehicles serve just as well
03:10<Pikka>articulated vehicles where you can refit each part seperately would be the pest of poth worlds I think
03:11<Supercheese>aye
03:11<jonty-comp>dolphins with cargo bags?
03:12<jonty-comp>red alert 2 total conversion grf
03:12<Supercheese>:D
03:12<Supercheese>Kirov Airships
03:13<Supercheese>Chronovehicles
03:13<Supercheese>teleport to destination
03:13<andythenorth>Pikka: rv-wagons were discounted because nobody can be arsed :)
03:13<Pikka>well, that too
03:14<andythenorth>most people who could do it don't like rvs :)
03:14<Supercheese>andy's already got the squid covered ;)
03:14-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
03:15<Flygon>What about getting rv trailers refitted with some trailers being powered and some not
03:15<Flygon>Like Australian road trains :B
03:16<Supercheese>road trains already possible far as I can tell
03:16<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: a misc flag that says "you can refit each part individually", to not break old GRFs that depend on all vehicles having the same refit?
03:21<andythenorth>container ship: 400 holds (individually refittable)
03:24<@planetmaker>so like 1 passenger, 5 mail, 2 sheep, 3 fish, 300 coal ? sounds stupid
03:24<jonty-comp>and then make it hold food as well
03:25<andythenorth>chicken fox grain
03:25<jonty-comp>and the food decreases proportional to how many passengers there are
03:25<@planetmaker>no, it's a ship which only runs mid-summer during ramadan
03:25<jonty-comp>over the duration of the journey :P
03:25<@planetmaker>North of the polar circle
03:26<@peter1138>north of the polar bear
03:26<Eddi|zuHause>one cabbage, one goat, one wolf
03:26<andythenorth>same puzzle?
03:26<jonty-comp>and if the ship doesn't dock for at least 6 ingame months, there is a chance of a zombie outbreak disaster on board
03:26<jonty-comp>in which case it becomes controlled by an agressive AI that crashes it into other ships and infects them
03:27<andythenorth>hmm
03:27<andythenorth>newgrf vehicles that can consume their own cargo
03:27<andythenorth>realism to the fore!
03:27<jonty-comp>oh god, what i have i done
03:27<jonty-comp>D:
03:27<@planetmaker>hm, that closes the circle. We're very close to UfoAI then ;-)
03:27<andythenorth>your train has no coal left, it will continue at 1mph
03:28<andythenorth>until you load coal again
03:28<jonty-comp>but it is unrealistic to have a coal train that consumes its own cargo
03:28<andythenorth>tender
03:28<jonty-comp>instead you must have a tender wagon
03:28<jonty-comp>and then distribute coal to every station on your network
03:29<Supercheese>@_@
03:29<andythenorth>it would be fun for small maps
03:29<andythenorth>very small maps
03:29<andythenorth>tinkering
03:29<Supercheese>64x64
03:29<andythenorth>yes
03:30*Eddi|zuHause points at the fact that you did not _buy_ the coal you're transporting
03:30<andythenorth>meh, details
03:30<jonty-comp>i suspect it would quickly become impossible over a certain size
03:30<jonty-comp>ingame market system!
03:30<andythenorth>jonty-comp: you'd just run round-robin trains dropping off fuel at every station
03:30<andythenorth>it's conceptually easy, just tedious
03:30<Eddi|zuHause>also, you need water for steam engines as well
03:30<Eddi|zuHause>and sand!
03:30<andythenorth>yes
03:30<Eddi|zuHause>and oil!
03:30<andythenorth>railroad tycoon had all thee
03:31<jonty-comp>and spare parts
03:31<andythenorth>these *
03:31<andythenorth>instead we have servicing
03:31<jonty-comp>once stations got too spread out, you'd use more coal than you transported though
03:32<andythenorth>nah it would be fine
03:32<andythenorth>I'd just introduce a 'servicing' industry: produces coal, water, sand
03:32<andythenorth>no input needed :P
03:32<andythenorth>hax
03:34<jonty-comp>you'd have to transport those items to the depots instead of the stations, of course
03:35<andythenorth>so anyway
03:35<andythenorth>ships with 2 holds?
03:35<andythenorth>or articulated ships?
03:35<jonty-comp>and each depot could have a stockpile of items that determines how much servicing a train there reduces the breakdown %!
03:36<andythenorth>2 holds => interesting hax
03:36<andythenorth>articulated ships => have to avoid doing Bad Things
03:39<Pikka>either way andy
03:39<Pikka>come up with a spec
03:39<Pikka>post it somewhere
03:39<Pikka>ask someone who might be able to patch it to patch it
03:39<Pikka>do not go anywhere near the forums with it unless you want idiots to talk in circles around it forevermore
03:39<andythenorth>do not pass go
03:40<andythenorth>do not collect £200?
03:40<Supercheese>$200*
03:40<Pikka>yes :)
03:40<andythenorth>Community Chest: someone has patched the game
03:40<Pikka>so, american boxcars
03:41<Pikka>brown, other brown, red, and CC? :)
03:41<Supercheese>Roll two dice: If you roll 12 the patch is accepted to trunk, otherwise no patch for you
03:41<andythenorth>definitely CC
03:41<Pikka>some of the brown ones will have CC markings or something?
03:44<andythenorth>you doing 2CC?
03:44<Pikka>sometimes
03:44<Pikka>like I said, the white bits on those coaches are 2cc
03:46<andythenorth>2CC boxcar?
03:47<andythenorth>I liked the US Set. With enough patience (graphics are random on build), a matched set of BN green engines and boxcars could be built
03:48<@planetmaker>09:39 Pikka: do not go anywhere near the forums with it unless you want idiots to talk in circles around it forevermore <-- Discussing specs in the forum definitely is not bad. You just need to filter the clutter
03:48<@planetmaker>but you need to do that anyway
03:49<Pikka>yeah
03:49<Pikka>but the problem is you need everyone else to filter the clutter too
03:49<Pikka>the actual conversation gets lost otherwise :)
03:50<@planetmaker>without making it known you'll have no conversation
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>... i don't know what you're talking about :p
03:51<@planetmaker>It worked well so far to make a wiki page with the specs and discuss it in the forums
03:51<Pikka>if there's no action, the conversation is at best pointless :)
03:51<@planetmaker>that of course ;-)
03:51<Pikka>:)
03:51<@planetmaker>though not necessarily. It just depends on the time horizon
03:51<Pikka>yep
03:52<andythenorth>also, ships with multiple holds are just massive hax. So maybe it's better not to
03:52<andythenorth>"yes but it's realistic"
03:52<Supercheese>autorefit already is sufficiently haxing
03:52<Pikka>well, it's only massive hax until you work out the proper way to do it, andy :P
03:53<andythenorth>gameplay hax
03:53<Supercheese>hex
03:55<andythenorth>you could just buy one giant ship for any route
03:56<Supercheese>you can already just buy num_cargoes ships for any route
03:56<Supercheese>would only consolidate that down to one
03:56<Supercheese>make gameplay simpler perhaps
03:57*Supercheese should sleep
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03:57*andythenorth work
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04:05<@peter1138>use an rgb recolour to have just the shade of brown you want
04:11<jonty-comp>or just draw in 32bpp in the first place
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04:38<@peter1138>could do
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04:53<Pikka>"one giant ship for any route" is realistic or something :)
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>you'd ideally want just enough ships that always one is loading
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05:34<@peter1138>clearly water needs depth
05:34<@peter1138>so you can send your megaliner up that barge canal
05:34<@peter1138>er
05:34<@peter1138>narrow-boat canal
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05:35<joey8>hi all, i am installing openttd123 and have extracted it to my home directory. i have changes the path to include the games/openttd directory but i am getting "openttd: not found" in a little white message box. can any one help please?
05:39<Pikka>what OS, joey8?
05:39<joey8>ubuntu - latest
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>joey8: have you tried opening it from a console window?
05:41<joey8>yes - that is what i am doing... running the openttd-wrapper program
05:41<joey8>is that right?
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know any openttd-wrapper program
05:41<joey8>oh
05:42<@peter1138>i think there was some crazy wrapper some distribution added
05:45<blathijs>\o
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>say "crazy" and random people appear :)
05:47<blathijs>It's a wrapper intended to display an error message when no graphics set is found (as opposed to silently quitting, which is weird when users click the "OpenTTD" menu item and nothing happens)
05:47<blathijs>I guess we can remove it again in the most recent versions which actually ask if you want to download OpenGFX now
05:49<blathijs>joey8: You should be able to just run /usr/games/openttd normally, the /usr/share/games/openttd/openttd-wrapper script is only intended to be called from the applications menu
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05:51<blathijs>joey8: Hmm, wait, you're saying that openttd-wrapper doesn't find openttd. So either /usr/games/openttd doesn't exist on your system (which would be weird) or you messed up something in the path to remove /usr/games from it
05:51<blathijs>joey8: What does this openttd123 thing do?
05:51<blathijs>Googling it only gives me stuff about OpenTTD 1.2.3
05:52<blathijs>Oh wait, that's exactly what you meant, I guess
05:52<blathijs>joey8: You should change the path to include the "games" directory, not the games/openttd filename
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06:42<Pikka>yes but
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06:45<@peter1138>pikka no, don't do it pikka, no
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07:06<andythenorth>I dunno
07:07<andythenorth>should I?
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07:37<andythenorth>yay
07:37<andythenorth>inflation
07:37<andythenorth>let's remove it
07:38<@planetmaker>:D
07:41<andythenorth>so let's try this
07:41<andythenorth>current inflation means costs outstrip income?
07:41<andythenorth>and the 'fix' is to keep them the same?
07:42<andythenorth>and the point of this for gameplay is...?
07:43<V453000>unicorns
07:43<V453000>also hello :)
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07:52<joey8>does anybody know why i should be getting a small white message box with "openttd not found" when i click on the openttd-wrapper program. trying to do an install on ubuntu 12.04. thank you
07:53<Pinkbeast>Please, say what set of instructions you were attempting to follow?
07:53<joey8>i am making my own up pinkbeast because i cant find any to follow, sorry.
07:54<joey8>i would willingly follow any instruction set if one was offered to me.
07:54<joey8>i have just downloaded the deb file from the openttd website
07:54<Pinkbeast>OK, then, perhaps you could explain what steps have got you to this point.
07:54<joey8>ok
07:54<joey8>i have just downloaded the deb file from the openttd website
07:55<Pinkbeast>... Ah, OK. Then you did what?
07:55<joey8>ok and then i extracted to my home directory so now i have a deb and a usr directory
07:56<joey8>if i click on the openttd-wrapper program i get the afore-mentioned error message
07:56<Pinkbeast>Please say what you actually did. What command did you run to "extract to my home directory"?
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07:56<joey8>ok 1 min please
07:57<Pinkbeast>It sounds to me like you have just unpacked the package, not installed it.
07:57<joey8>ah ha ..... "install it"? mmm sorry i was unaware i had to do that
07:57<joey8>is there an instruction set i am to follow please pinkbeast
07:57<Pinkbeast>Well, any Debian package needs to be installed.
07:58<joey8>ok
07:58<Pinkbeast>You in general would install one with "sudo dpkg -i foo.deb"
07:58<joey8>ah ok
07:58<joey8>i have looked on the openttd website for instructions. could you help by pointing me in the right direction please thank you
07:59<Pinkbeast>Errr I suggest you install the package as above
07:59<joey8>what ... with dpkg?
07:59<Pinkbeast>Yes, as all Debian packages are installed.
07:59<joey8>ok will try. thanx for your help
07:59*joey8 waves
08:00<joey8>
08:00<Pinkbeast>You might then find it complains about the lack of some other packages which you might install with "apt-get install foo"
08:00<joey8>ah ha ok
08:01<joey8>thanx - i am going know to try it. (in another room) thank you bye
08:01<Pinkbeast>OK, but you could ssh in to the machine in question and run dpkg
08:01<joey8>its ok - dont need to - i will walk ヅ
08:13<jonty-comp>what is this walking you speak of
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08:16<andythenorth>http://people.gnome.org/~michael/data/2013-02-03-re-factoring.pdf
08:17<@peter1138>take anything touched by gnome with a pinch of salt
08:18<goodger>I like how michael meeks can't spell "its"
08:20<Pinkbeast>It's a weird mix of sensible stuff like making autobuilds work as well as possible and vague noises about the magic of free software
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08:31<joey8>pinkbeast - just a quick thank you. 1.2.3 all running great - thanx for your care and help
08:31<joey8>
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09:29<@Belugas>hello
09:30<@peter1138>hi sir
09:30<@Belugas>godd day to you peter1138 :)
09:30<Pikka>hallo Belugas and peeter
09:32<@Belugas>pister mikka!
09:32<@Belugas>hem...
09:32<@Belugas>no
09:32<@Belugas>misper tikka
09:32<@Belugas>grrr..
09:32<@Belugas>shake shake shake
09:33<@Belugas>mister Pikka!
09:33<@Belugas>sluuuurp
09:33<@Belugas>cofffeee time!
09:33<andythenorth>:)
09:33*andythenorth is drinking Nescafe instant
09:33<andythenorth>bleargh
09:33<Pikka>andythenorth, better than nothing
09:34*Pikka is out of scotch :[
09:34<Pikka>not /much/ better than nothing, admittedly
09:34<andythenorth>forums are boringly quiet
09:34<andythenorth>so is simuscape
09:34<andythenorth>should I join the german forum?
09:34<andythenorth>my german is nichts so gut
09:34<andythenorth>ist*
09:34<Pikka>the german forum is at least refreshingly to the point
09:34<Pikka>as you might expect
09:34<andythenorth>meine deutsch
09:35<andythenorth>ah germans
09:35<Pikka>Simuscape's "Hall of Fame" post was greeted with "what is this shit" :)
09:35<andythenorth>Pikka: how good is your german then?
09:36<Pikka>poor to quite poor, I did it for a few years in high school
09:36<@peter1138>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russian-meteor-strike-that-injured-1200-people-was-us-weapons-test-claims-politician-8499856.html
09:37<@peter1138>yeah
09:37<jonty-comp>hahaha
09:42<Pikka>seems plausible
09:43<Pikka>sounds like the Russian Bob Katter, does he wear a big hat?
09:44<andythenorth>asteroids were considered as a serious piece of WMD
09:44<andythenorth>if you can target one precisely, it' s a really simple continent killer
09:44*andythenorth read the wrong books at age 13
09:45<andythenorth>I might go home and make a livestock ship :P
09:45<Pikka>probably easier just to nuke the continent directly
09:45<Pikka>good idea :)
09:54<@planetmaker>if a fish ship has the fish tow the ship instead of carry it... would it have reduced running costs?
09:56<@peter1138>no because it costs more to train the fish
09:56<@peter1138>which you then transmute into food
09:57<andythenorth>planetmaker: what if the fish carry this, and you put your ship on it? http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sIOxEb74Gs0/T6VAtD6RCOI/AAAAAAAAEdA/Vrr-snZP5kw/s1600/heavy+lift+ships+-1.jpg
09:57<@peter1138>that's not a ship
09:57<@peter1138>that's a sawn
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09:58<@peter1138>er
09:58<@peter1138>swan
09:58<@peter1138>sawn off swan?
09:59<jonty-comp>how do you get from one end to the other without getting wet feet?
09:59<andythenorth>use a boat
10:00<andythenorth>those ships should be in FISH
10:00<andythenorth>on the right: the big trawler. In the middle, a nice ferry
10:00<andythenorth>on the left....some dredger thing. That's HEQS :P
10:00<@planetmaker>interesting ship, andy
10:01<@peter1138>jonty-comp, probably a walkway underneath the bed
10:03<andythenorth>biab
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10:06<@peter1138>back in a boat?
10:06<@peter1138>boat in a bath?
10:08<goodger>brain in a box
10:08<@peter1138>band in a box
10:09<jonty-comp>box in a box
10:14<@peter1138>http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1361196949372.jpg
10:15<@peter1138>brony on a bench?
10:15<goodger>what in satan's glorious name
10:15<jonty-comp>oh my
10:16<@peter1138>http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1361197082762.jpg
10:16<@peter1138>brony in a bedroom
10:17<jonty-comp>nice TV
10:17<Pikka>your mother's a brony, peter1138
10:17<@peter1138>i don't think that's possible
10:17<Pikka>anything's possible
10:18<Pikka>especially with your mother
10:19<Pikka>also, Biggles in a Blenheim
10:19<goodger>"bronies imply affirmation of blasphemy"
10:20<Pinkbeast>Do we really? Egads.
10:21<Pikka>and bedtime in a brisbane
10:21<Pikka>goodnight
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10:22<goodger>bronies inculcate arrested belief [in a god]
10:22<@peter1138>oh god we got one
10:22<goodger>:D
10:22<Pinkbeast>goodger: you who what now?
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10:42<Bad_Brett>hello there
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11:13<andythenorth>we should fix inflation by introducing a complete economic cycle
11:13<andythenorth>and have multiple currencies
11:13<andythenorth>with all the associated macro-economic machinery
11:13<Pinkbeast>So I can play Warren Buffett and never touch a vehicle?
11:13<andythenorth>no
11:14<andythenorth>you still have to play trains
11:14<Pinkbeast>It'd be a neat parallel to your "the game is not all about trains, you know" - "the game is not all about transport". :-)
11:14<andythenorth>but now "they cost more, so it's more fun"
11:14<Pinkbeast>If I was Warren Buffett I'd have my own trainset
11:14<andythenorth>true
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11:24<andythenorth>so 1 bandit.grf, or 1 per theme?
11:24<andythenorth>herm, no pikka :P
11:25<@planetmaker>g'evening
11:25<andythenorth>assume there's a set of 10 US trucks, a set of 10 Australian trucks etc
11:25-!-KouDy1 [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit []
11:25<andythenorth>or so
11:26<andythenorth>I am figuring one grf
11:26<andythenorth>makes setting up a game easier, and one place to set parameters, not n
11:26<andythenorth>assuming parameters are needed :P
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11:31<RavingManiac>Sometimes, I think that openttd is set in some dystopian alternate history
11:32<RavingManiac>Where the world is ruled by transportation barons
11:32<RavingManiac>It is they who determine which cities grow and die, where the goods go
11:32<RavingManiac>etc
11:33<goodger>and where your home can be demolished before they realise they needed to demolish the one next door
11:34<RavingManiac>and when the city authorities get their shit together and make a stand against the corporation levelling the town?
11:34<RavingManiac>Bribe money!
11:34<RavingManiac>and five more families are homeless
11:34<@planetmaker>plant trees! cheaper and more effective ;-)
11:34<goodger>nah, those five families are simply murdered in their homes prior to demolition
11:35<@planetmaker>"oh, I destroyed your house? C'mon, look what nice trees I planted instead!" "oh, ok. Then please don't mind. Continue at will"
11:38<MNIM>goodger: I always thought they were killed in the explosion
11:38<@Belugas>don't you love this game or not! I still do :D
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12:06<@Terkhen>hello
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12:16<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
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12:23<andythenorth>Terkhen: fancy doing the FIRS spanish update? o_O
12:24<andythenorth>I should release soon :)
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12:42<Snail>hey andy
12:42<Snail>I'm updating FIRS' translation now...
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12:44<Snail>what are exactly "recyclables"? stuff to be recycled, or stuff already recycled?
12:45<Snail>coz they're produced by the "recycling depot" and accepted by the "recycling plant"...
12:45<Pinkbeast>Stuff to be recycled I believe.
12:45<@Terkhen>he's gone :P
12:46<@Terkhen>yes, it is stuff to be recycled
12:51<Snail>whoops, I asked him right after he left :)
12:51<Snail>thanks guys
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13:19<Snail>anyone knows the difference between "basic farm" and "mixed farm" in FIRS?
13:20<Snail>I'm looking here --> http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/economies
13:20<Snail>but it looks like there's no info...
13:20<Snail>\
13:21<frosch123>mixed farm produces both livestock and grain
13:21<frosch123>i guess basic farm appears only in economies with a single type of farm
13:22<Snail>ok
13:22<frosch123>the bloated economy iirc has 3 farms: grain, livestock, grain+livestock
13:22<frosch123>the normal economies may have only one type
13:23<jonty-comp>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=64419
13:23<jonty-comp>that makes perfect sense
13:23<frosch123>tell him abuot the cheat menu
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13:36<terjesc>Very descriptive topic title.
13:37<frosch123>yeah, sadly it is limited in length
13:38<terjesc>I was talking about the forum post.
13:38<terjesc>"Does anyone know how to answer?"
13:38<terjesc>(=
13:40<@Rubidium>yes
13:40<@Rubidium>Q.E.D.
13:41<@planetmaker>:D was tempted to reply that. Would qualify as "unhelpful", though
13:42<terjesc>Well, to write Q.E.D. you kind of have to demonstrate that you know how to answer first.
13:42<terjesc>q:
13:42<@Rubidium>terjesc: didn't I demonstrate that by answering his question with yes?
13:43<terjesc>Oh, sorry. Of course.
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13:44<__ln__>h w1
13:44<Wolf01>h __
13:44<@planetmaker>terjesc, the answer is "use cheat menu"
13:44<Wolf01>hello :D
13:44<@planetmaker>and get yourself as much money as you want
13:44<terjesc>planetmaker: I know. (=
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13:51<@peter1138>http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934
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13:51<jonty-comp>i wondered how long it would take someone to do that
13:52<jonty-comp>now i need to figure out running wine in qemu so that i can get x86 apps on my tablet
13:55<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25022 /trunk/src/lang (11 files) (2013-02-18 18:55:14 UTC)
13:55<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:55<@DorpsGek>belarusian - 10 changes by KorneySan
13:55<@DorpsGek>croatian - 9 changes by VoyagerOne
13:55-!-St3f [~Anonymous@109.201.152.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:55<@DorpsGek>dutch - 9 changes by habell
13:55<@DorpsGek>hungarian - 6 changes by oklmernok
13:55<@DorpsGek>italian - 5 changes by lorenzodv
13:55<@DorpsGek>korean - 17 changes by telk5093
13:55<@DorpsGek>polish - 5 changes by wojteks86
13:55<@DorpsGek>brazilian_portuguese - 10 changes by Tucalipe
13:55<@DorpsGek>russian - 9 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:55<@DorpsGek>swedish - 50 changes by Zuu
13:55<@DorpsGek>vietnamese - 9 changes by nglekhoi
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14:09<andythenorth>Terkhen: sorry for forgetting translation :(
14:09<andythenorth>I assumed you'd commit:)
14:12<andythenorth>I'll do it now
14:15<@Terkhen>I mentioned back then that I had no development environment :P
14:15<@Terkhen>no problem :)
14:15<@Terkhen>I was able to find the paste :P
14:17<andythenorth>oops :)
14:17<andythenorth>sometimes in the middle of something I have to go and do real life :P
14:17<andythenorth>then I forget
14:17<andythenorth>real life first :P
14:18<@Terkhen>:)
14:18<Snail>hey andy
14:19<Snail>I had a question for you about FIRS 0.9.2
14:19<andythenorth>?
14:19<Snail>in my set, I have a vehicle that can carry mail by default and can be refitted to passengers
14:19<Snail>when I refit to passengers, I change the capacity through CB36
14:20<Snail>with FIRS 0.7 (as well as with all the other industry sets including default) I used to set capacity to X passengers through CB36, and I got X*2 as real capacity in-game
14:20<Snail>however, now with FIRS 0.9.2, the same code gives me X/2 passengers in-game
14:20<Snail>perhaps there have been changes in the cargo definitions?
14:21<andythenorth>yes
14:21<andythenorth>might be a bug, might be correct behaviour
14:21<andythenorth>I'll look
14:21<andythenorth>mail / pax in FIRS are supposed to be same as default game
14:21<andythenorth>what does default do? :)
14:21<MinchinWeb>In a NewGRF set, how do you change the sort order of vehicles?
14:23<andythenorth>there's a sort order property
14:23<Snail>default doubles the real in-game capacity if I take a vehicle whose default cargo is mail and I refit it to pax
14:23<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25023 trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp (2013-02-18 19:23:09 UTC)
14:23<@DorpsGek>-Change: Regroup buttons in content download GUI to put item-specifc stuff next to each other.
14:23<Snail>while FIRS 0.9.2 halves it...
14:23<Snail>the original bug report is here --> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=58283&start=168
14:25<andythenorth>I have set multiplier to 2
14:25<andythenorth>maybe it should be 0.5
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14:26<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Cargos#Cargo_properties
14:26<Snail>did you change it from FIRS 0.7?
14:26<andythenorth>probably
14:26<Snail>coz it used to work well with that one
14:26<andythenorth>I'd have to diff to check
14:26<andythenorth>a lot has changed since then :P
14:26<Snail>:p
14:26<andythenorth>it's also a new property in openttd 1.2
14:26<andythenorth>might not have been set in FIRS 0.7 at all
14:26<Snail>but at least from this feature's perspective, FIRS 0.7 behaved like all the other cargo sets while FIRS 0.9.2 doesn't
14:27<andythenorth>nml docs say mail should be 2
14:27<andythenorth>which it is
14:27<andythenorth>but pax is 1, should be 4
14:27<andythenorth>FIRS bug :)
14:28<andythenorth>fixing
14:28<Snail>thanks :)
14:28<Snail>oh I also updated the Italian translation ;)
14:29<andythenorth>I committed it :)
14:30<andythenorth>hmm
14:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25024 /trunk/src (5 files in 5 dirs) (2013-02-18 19:30:24 UTC)
14:30<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Searching of (missing) content via GrfCrawler.
14:30<andythenorth>:)
14:31<andythenorth>lots of recent commits :)
14:32<andythenorth>so we're having some of cdist then?
14:32<Snail>cargo dist in trunk?
14:33<andythenorth>there are commits relating to some cdist things
14:33<andythenorth>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/
14:33<frosch123>it's not the whole story
14:33<andythenorth>I wouldn't make assumptions until someone tells you
14:34<andythenorth>might just be general improvements that happen to have come from fonso
14:35<andythenorth>Snail: want to test FIRS fix? http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/
14:35<andythenorth>if it works, I'll be releasing soon
14:36<andythenorth>frosch123: that's pretty nice for GRFCrawler
14:36<Snail>andy: ok, downloading now
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14:37<andythenorth>I wonder if that's going to prompt some new grfcrawler entries
14:37<andythenorth>I'm tempted, even though it's irrational
14:40<andythenorth>hmm
14:40<andythenorth>old GRFCrawler is old
14:41<Snail>andythenorth: tested and works :)
14:41<Snail>thanks dude
14:41<Snail>makes me relieved I don't have to go change my code :p
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14:42<andythenorth>np
14:42-!-joey8 [~JoeEvans@host86-137-46-196.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
14:42<andythenorth>my bug
14:42<andythenorth>thanks for finding it
14:43<Snail>:)
14:43<andythenorth>grfcrawler updated :P
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14:43<andythenorth>can I be bothered to add my other grfs?
14:43<andythenorth>erm
14:43<andythenorth>nope
14:43<andythenorth>so should I set capacity multiplier for any other FIRS cargos?
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14:44<Snail>well, as for me, the problem only occurred with passengers
14:44<Snail>al
14:44<Snail>l the oth
14:44<Snail>er
14:44<Snail>all the other cargoes behave nicely (i.e. same way as for the other industry sets)
14:45<andythenorth>hmm
14:46<andythenorth>pikka chops doesn't bother using capacity multiplier on planes / trains
14:46<andythenorth>HEQS does it
14:46<andythenorth>FISH doesn't
14:47<andythenorth>zeph does it the wrong way round in eGRVTS
14:47<andythenorth>15t of stuff, or 30 crates of goods
14:47<andythenorth>hmm, no, that's the correct way :P
14:47<andythenorth>how confusing
14:50<Snail>you mean from the vehicle set's point of view?
14:51<andythenorth>or the player's
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14:51<andythenorth>or the newgrf author's
14:52<andythenorth>I suspect it's just a bad feature :)
14:52<tracerpt>hello
14:52<Snail>I think this is way overcomplicated :p
14:52<andythenorth>yes
14:54<@planetmaker>hi
14:56<Snail>have to go now
14:56<Snail>cya later
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15:04<MinchinWeb>I'm trying to figure out purchase list sorting... I found this -> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Sorting_vehicles_in_the_purchase_list <- but it doesn't seem to work the way I expected
15:04<MinchinWeb>are the ID's the ones you assign in your NML?
15:05<frosch123>it's the third parameter of the "item" thingie or so
15:05<frosch123>hmm, or the second?
15:06<MinchinWeb>the name, or the number?
15:06<frosch123>both work i guess, better use the name :)
15:08<MinchinWeb>guess I'll try names and see if it works better :)
15:11<andythenorth>want some source?
15:11<andythenorth>I can find some :P
15:11<andythenorth>MinchinWeb: nfo or nml?
15:12<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2128/
15:12<andythenorth>I use explicit numeric IDs
15:12<MinchinWeb>NML
15:12<andythenorth>I don't trust all this magical stuff
15:12<andythenorth>lol
15:13<andythenorth>the IDs in that list happen to be in exact correct order :P
15:13<tracerpt>anyone using the 32bpp thingie?
15:13<andythenorth>that's just a side-effect of how I remade the set
15:13<MinchinWeb>well, my code looks about the same, but it's not showing up the way I want
15:14<@peter1138>32bpp thingie?
15:16<tracerpt>32bpp graphics
15:17<tracerpt>I've been playing ttd and openttd for years but just now i've decided to add some content
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15:18<tracerpt>keep getting lost in the wiki
15:19<frosch123>just install ottd 1.2.x or newer, open the content download in game, get zbase, and activate it in game options
15:21<tracerpt>cheers
15:21<tracerpt>off to ruin my game now brb xD
15:21<tracerpt>added some train sets and it looks like a warzone
15:22<@peter1138>and then switch back to ttd/opengfx when you can't stand the look
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15:23<tracerpt>isn't it supposed to be better?
15:23<MinchinWeb>well, my sorting seems to be working now :) thanks
15:24<frosch123>tracerpt: there is no better in subjective decisions
15:25<frosch123>it is different for sure though
15:25<tracerpt>yeah
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15:31<andythenorth>so
15:31<andythenorth>crates of goods are 'bigger' in default vehicles
15:31<andythenorth>but 'smaller' in eGRVTS and HEQS
15:31<andythenorth>which is odd
15:31<andythenorth>I guess 'crates' are not standard dimensions :P
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15:33<MinchinWeb>well a crate should have a standard weight, no?
15:33<andythenorth>the weight is same yes
15:33<andythenorth>16 crates = 8t
15:36<MinchinWeb>well then dimensions can't very too too much (you would think)
15:36<andythenorth>but by volume, a truck from default game carries 25t of coal, or similar truck carries 8t goods (16 crates)
15:37<andythenorth>whilst a HEQS truck carries 2t coal, or 4 crates of goods
15:37<andythenorth>and an eGRVTS 2 truck carries 15t coal or 30 crates goods
15:37<MinchinWeb>I think HEQS has it right then
15:38<andythenorth>more right than the actual game? :P
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15:43<jonty-comp>well the original game is hardly a bastion of realism
15:43<andythenorth>realism I'm not bothered :)
15:43<andythenorth>more consistency
15:44<andythenorth>although consistency is the hobgoblin of tiny minds &c &c
15:47<tracerpt>cant find zbase on the downloader ò.Ó
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15:56<frosch123>hmm, ok, apparently it needs 1.3 beta
15:56<MinchinWeb>andythenorth: did you ever get to templating on that Python/NML tutorial you were writing?
15:56<andythenorth>basic python templating yes
15:57<andythenorth>it's in newgrf dev forum
15:57<andythenorth>don't think I got as far as chameleon templating
15:57<Wolf01>'night all
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15:58<tracerpt>oh
15:58<andythenorth>MinchinWeb: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=58390
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15:58<tracerpt>need to update then
15:58<tracerpt>ty frosch
15:59<frosch123>i actually don't know why it requires 1.3 :p
15:59<@peter1138>mask shading?
16:00<frosch123>i would think everything was backported to 1.2.3
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16:09<tracerpt>everything i've read says 1.2.0 and above
16:11<@Rubidium>there are some issues that makes it work less than satisfactory with < 1.2.3
16:12<tracerpt>guessing that's why it was made for 1.3 now
16:12<frosch123>yeah, but it's not available for 1.2.3 either
16:13<frosch123>i think the bananas version requirements are wrong
16:13<frosch123>planetmaker: might know :)
16:13<@Rubidium>frosch123: odd, my 1.2.3 shows it
16:14<tracerpt>I'll update to the latest version just in case
16:14<frosch123>well, i tried with 1.2 branch, i hoped that would be newer
16:15<@Rubidium>frosch123: that doesn't have the 'release' bit nor the .3 bit
16:15<frosch123>yeah, indeed, 1.2.3 tag shows zbase
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16:20<tracerpt>upgrading now :D
16:21<@planetmaker>hm...
16:21<@planetmaker>which newgrf?
16:21<frosch123>zbase
16:21<frosch123>but is is fine
16:21<frosch123>it is available in 1.2.3
16:22<frosch123>just not in 1.2-branch as i thought it would
16:22<@planetmaker>hm, I actually do not know why its availability is set to 1.3. It should work with 1.2.3 or so
16:22<tracerpt>yeah
16:22<tracerpt>upgraded to 1.2.3
16:22<tracerpt>showing zbase now
16:22<@planetmaker>but not 1.2.2 or earlier. Some bug iirc which has issues with container format ... or something
16:23<@planetmaker>my memory is fuzzy, but there was a reason :-)
16:23<@Rubidium>planetmaker: colours
16:23<frosch123>we changed the recolouring
16:23<@Rubidium>planetmaker: and 1.2.3 shows zbase
16:23<@planetmaker>:-) ^
16:24<tracerpt>so i just install zbase and it will run with the default trainsets or do i need to download new ones?
16:24<@planetmaker>basesets just change all default sprites. so yes, also the default trainset will of course work. And look different
16:24<tracerpt>allright then
16:24<@planetmaker>(but only look different, not work different)
16:25<tracerpt>oki
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16:26<tracerpt>I like the wagons measuring 0.5, gonna browse the forums later on to try and see if there's a way to add only the engines
16:27<tracerpt>thanks for the help :) will be back later
16:28<frosch123>night
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16:48<andythenorth>can I be arsed to dibble around with cargo aging?
16:48<andythenorth>for refrigeration and such?
16:48<andythenorth>nah
16:53<jonty-comp>surely the value depreciation over time takes care of that
16:56<andythenorth>the cargo aging affects the calculation
16:56<andythenorth>allowing a bit more variation between vehicle types
16:57<andythenorth>but then I have to put more text in buy menu, blearch
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17:11<Supercheese>Ooooh, r25024 GRFcrawler search
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17:20<andythenorth>FISH r999 :D
17:20<andythenorth>bedtime
17:20<andythenorth>last time it will ever be all 9s I reckon
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17:24<Eddi|zuHause>until it suddenly is 9999 :)
17:24<andythenorth>that will be the day :)
17:24<andythenorth>bedtime
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17:34<@Terkhen>good night
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18:31<MinchinWeb_>when I send trains to depot, it always seems to want to send the train to the depot behind it, and almost never the depot in front of it. Do i just need to adjust some pathfinder penalties?
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 19 00:00:55 2013