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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-20

---Logopened Wed Feb 20 00:00:56 2013
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03:48<andythenorth>Pikka got industries yet? o_O
03:58<Pikka>notyet D:
03:59<Pikka>distracted by 10cc :)
03:59<Pikka>I suppose I need industries to test my wagons though
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04:00<andythenorth>I want to see the style :)
04:00<andythenorth>"so you must do it"
04:00<andythenorth>:P
04:00<andythenorth>it's nice to have encouragement eh?
04:01<Pikka>the graphic style or the production style? :)
04:01<andythenorth>graphic
04:02<Pikka>o
04:02<Pikka>0% done, then :)
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04:13<@planetmaker>quickly bored :D Moin
04:15<Flygon>Huomenta
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04:29*Pikka bbs
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>Grütze (i don't think i spelled that right :p)
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05:23<Pikka>yebbut
05:33<Pikka>so
05:33<Pikka>I should render these industries, right?
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>64BPPEZOMH!
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>errr
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>64BPPEZOMG!
05:35<@peter1138>what
05:35<Pikka>3d model and render
05:36<@peter1138>and fix ottd's movement code while you're at it
05:36<Pikka>it needs fixing? :)
05:36<@peter1138>http://pikkarail.com/openttd/a-matter-of-perspective/
05:36<@peter1138>some guy wrote that
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>errr... did that guy really just dig a 9 year old topic? :p
05:38<Pikka>I said it was not strictly "correct"
05:38<Pikka>I didn't say it needed fixing :)
05:38<Pikka>and the problems with rendering only apply to trains and rvs
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>but if you have animated trains or rvs on your industries?
05:40<@peter1138>rip out the engine
05:40<@peter1138>and make it 3d
05:40<@peter1138>should be easy
05:41<@peter1138>draw it with perspective
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>and with fog of war :)
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05:53<jonty-comp>make the sprites render at runtime
05:53<jonty-comp>then newgrfs are just a bunch of 3ds files
05:53<@peter1138>sprites?
05:54<@peter1138>direct3d all the way
05:57<jonty-comp>how platform-specific
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06:14<Pikka>hmm
06:14<Pikka>perhaps I should start with ground tiles
06:14<Pikka>and roads
06:14<Pikka>and rails
06:15<Pikka>and trees
06:17<dihedral>hello
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06:33<Pokka>yes I know
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06:36<andythenorth>Pikka: render industries :p
06:36<andythenorth>rendering is for ships :P
06:36<Pikka>o
06:36<andythenorth>but I guess rendering means you get EZ zupport
06:36<andythenorth>and map rotation zupport
06:36<@peter1138>like av8
06:36<@peter1138>that has EZ support
06:36<@peter1138>cos it's rendered
06:38<Pikka>yes
06:51<Pikka>is it possible to have too much worcestershire sauce en pie?
06:57<andythenorth>how big is pie?
06:58<andythenorth>if there is more sauce than other content
06:58<andythenorth>you have too much
06:58<Pikka>hum
06:58<Pikka>shut up eccles
07:12<@planetmaker>hm, nice. Debian has even dropbox in its repo
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09:11<goodger>planetmaker: it's only the nautilus extension for dropbox iirc
09:21<@Belugas>hello
09:22<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:23<@planetmaker>goodger, it's good enough so that I have my dropbox folder now here
09:23<@planetmaker>synced with what is in it on my other machines
09:23<goodger>aha
09:24<@Belugas>sir maker!
09:24<@planetmaker>complained once that dropbox is started from an "unusual location", but so what :D
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>it's always unusual for the first time :p
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>could use an option to open the dropbox folder in dolphin, though
09:31<jonty-comp>watching people at my uni do a harlem shake over a cctv camera
09:31<jonty-comp>it's a bit surreal
09:33<Pikka>I didn't even know what this is
09:34<Pikka>I find it amusing that the world is imitating drongos from caboolture though
09:34<jonty-comp>i don't really see the point of the whole thing
09:34<jonty-comp>apparently students just like any excuse to dress up in stupid outfits
09:37<@peter1138>sparkleshare!
09:37<@peter1138>like dropbox but self-hosted (or rather, git-hosted)
09:37<jonty-comp>i want something like sparkleshare but to work off my home directories at work
09:38<jonty-comp>so anyone can log in like they would to ssh and get dropbox-style sync
09:38<jonty-comp>but last time i checked sparkleshare was too much of a pain in the ass to do that
09:43<@peter1138>they make it a bit complex
09:43<@peter1138>with the magic script to set up a server
09:43<@peter1138>i just used git init --bare myself
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10:10<@planetmaker>that works for me. But tell that and explain to the average joe
10:10<@planetmaker>it needs something which is like one click install and ready to go
10:10<@planetmaker>on any system they might use, mostly windoze
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10:22<@peter1138>is chillcore suggesting speeding up the game by ... hiding vehicle viewports?
10:23<Pokka>correct, 10 points
10:28<jonty-comp>hmph
10:28<jonty-comp>my SSL enforcer sent me to secure.openttd.org, but the CSS is on media.openttd.org, so chrome blocks it :(
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10:30<@peter1138>so don't use it
10:30<@peter1138>or use a version which doesn't incorrectly list openttd
10:31<jonty-comp>well it auto-detects
10:31<jonty-comp>when you visit a http site it looks to see if it gets the same reply from https and if it does, it sends you there
10:31<jonty-comp>i can however tell it to ignore this
10:31<@peter1138>that's silly
10:31<jonty-comp>seeing as it hardly matters anyway
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10:33<jonty-comp>although i see that https://media.openttd.org/ redirects to https://secure.openttd.org/media/
10:34<jonty-comp>so if you made the CSS/image links protocol-relative then it would solve the problem :p
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10:59<@planetmaker>jonty-comp, it's known to be broken. maybe there's a rule update for that. But... it's stupid and not OpenTTD's fault as that plugin rewrites the URL, not OpenTTD. Not much which can be done about
11:00<jonty-comp>well it's only broken because of chrome blocking the insecure content
11:00<jonty-comp>quite rightly too
11:00<jonty-comp>but i suppose it beats you buying more security certificates :P
11:02<Rubidium>jonty-comp: the main problem is that media.openttd.org isn't a relative path from www.openttd.org, server.openttd.org, bugs.openttd.org, ...
11:02<jonty-comp>i believe i have the same issue on radio.warwick.ac.uk, since we have a media subdomain
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11:03<jonty-comp>i could update the files to reference "//media.radio.warwick.ac.uk" and it would use whatever protocol the rest of the page is, but i don't have an SSL certificate for it
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11:04<Rubidium>does that work?
11:04<jonty-comp>yes
11:04<jonty-comp>well, it would if i had the certificate
11:04<jonty-comp>see https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=63092#p1066930
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11:11<Rubidium>jonty-comp: does it work better now?
11:12<jonty-comp>yes!
11:12<jonty-comp>although it blocks the OVH banner, i don't know if they do SSL too
11:12<jonty-comp>apparently they do
11:13<Rubidium>I rather not touch that snippet of code ;)
11:13<jonty-comp>heh
11:13<Rubidium>if they complain it doesn't work, then the code they provided doesn't work
11:14<jonty-comp>touché
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11:16<Rubidium>it's quite pointless to go to the main site with ssl
11:16<Rubidium>it only wastes CPU, bandwidth and such
11:17<jonty-comp>i usually disable the ssl enforcer on sites like openttd.org
11:17<jonty-comp>there are a surprising number of big sites that don't use SSL for lots of user-input though
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12:07<@Terkhen>hello
12:07<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
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13:05*frosch123 enjoys posting suggestions in the suggestion forum :)
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13:28<@peter1138>composite to an opengl surface
13:28<@peter1138>texture
13:28<@peter1138>whatever
13:28<@peter1138>when render the final stuff with opengl
13:28<@peter1138>therefore, opengl support! ftw!
13:28<@peter1138>but yeah, memory usage...
13:30<frosch123>who cares about memory usage since 32bpp?
13:30<jonty-comp>that one person who insists on keeping his windows 2000 computer
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13:32<frosch123>@calc 1920*1050*4
13:32<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 8064000
13:33<frosch123>i guess even w2k has no issue supporting multiple small viewports
13:33<frosch123>but yes, if spawn 100 extra viewports you run into trouble :p
13:34<frosch123>what do window manager do if you open 100 windows?
13:34<frosch123>do they just run out of memory?
13:34<frosch123>someone wants to try that? :p
13:34<@peter1138>usually yeah
13:34-!-Progman [~progman@p57A19097.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
13:34<@peter1138>i had a bug on one system where pressing f1 in gnome-terminal would open the help
13:34<@peter1138>and then open the help
13:34<@peter1138>and then open the help
13:34<@peter1138>and then open the help
13:34<@peter1138>and then open the help
13:35<@peter1138>and then open the help
13:35<frosch123>only 5 times?
13:35<@peter1138>usually got to about 80 windows before i could switch to a text mode and kill it off
13:35<jonty-comp>years ago i wrote a batch file to open TTDPatch
13:35<jonty-comp>and for some reason i made it loop
13:35<jonty-comp>and it opened 150 TTDPatches
13:35<@peter1138>and then the wm would usually need to be restarted too
13:35<jonty-comp>before my computer bluescreened
13:36<@peter1138>gotta love windows' solution
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25033 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2013-02-20 18:45:45 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>belarusian - 4 changes by KorneySan
13:46<@DorpsGek>bulgarian - 8 changes by ivanarj
13:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 9 changes by arnau
13:46<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 11 changes by cuthbert
13:46<@DorpsGek>polish - 2 changes by wojteks86
13:46<@DorpsGek>tamil - 32 changes by aswn
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14:13<andythenorth>@seen flherne
14:13<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: flherne was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 22 hours, 37 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <FLHerne> andythenorth: Different settings, and competetiveness - normally I try to use every vehicle at least once :D
14:16<andythenorth>@seen alberth
14:16<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: alberth was last seen in #openttd 22 hours, 32 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <Alberth> ice-skating ships :)
14:16<andythenorth>where are people I need to talk to? :)
14:27-!-Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd
14:29<oskari89>@seen DanMacK
14:29<@DorpsGek>oskari89: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 3 hours, 36 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
14:29<Supercheese>Wwwwow, was that an 8.5-year thread necromance?!
14:29<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=8180#p1067047
14:29<Supercheese>Woooow*
14:30<Supercheese>3,122 days
14:32<oskari89>What was the 32-bit base set, was it available from BaNaNaS?
14:32-!-MinchinWeb [~6034fac3@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
14:36<Bad_Brett>hello friends
14:36<Rubidium>have you tried entering 32 in the search terms?
14:36<andythenorth>in scenario editor, does industry construction try all layouts?
14:36<andythenorth>I have a FIRS bug report that suggests it might not
14:37<oskari89>Rubidium: Only 8/32bpp Trains 2CC available
14:37<Rubidium>then your openttd is too old
14:37<oskari89>No, it's 1.3.0-RC1
14:37<Rubidium>or you selected the only content from the newgrf window
14:37<Rubidium>s/only/online/
14:38<oskari89>Oh, thanks, found :)
14:38<oskari89>273 MiB O_o
14:39<oskari89>Seems to be the largest file from BaNaNas yet
14:39<Rubidium>yes
14:39<Rubidium>but what else did you expect?
14:39<oskari89>Nothing, just thought that it might be smaller :P
14:41<Bad_Brett>is there a max file size?
14:42<Rubidium>5 times as bits per pixel (rgba+mask), one layer with 1x zoom, 2x zoom (4x as many pixels), 4x zoom (16x as many pixels) -> so easily 20*5 times as big -> 100 times bigger than opengfx
14:43<Rubidium>opengfx is like 3.5 MiB, so 350 MiB wouldn't be odd for zBase
14:44<Bad_Brett>and if you include 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8 levels it will be even bigger...
14:44<Rubidium>Bad_Brett: yes, it roughly equivalent to the free size on the server's disk
14:45<Bad_Brett>alright
14:45<Bad_Brett>haha
14:46<oskari89>How large is that server's disk anyway?
14:46<Rubidium>Bad_Brett: but insignificant: 0.25+0.0625+0.015625 (=~1/3), which would account to at most 2% and then there's 1% for the actual opengfx (as fallback sprites)
14:47<Rubidium>s/disk/volume used for binaries/ ;)
14:47<Rubidium>I think there's a TB disk in it or so
14:48<MinchinWeb>So can someone explain the difference between the two train acceleration models to me? I'm making a train set and some of the trains never hit full speed with realistic acceleration and I'd like to fix that
14:48<andythenorth>just give them more power
14:49<Rubidium>one is based on physics, the other on... well... something in Chris' head I guess
14:49<Bad_Brett>haha
14:50<andythenorth>http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/hp_te.htm
14:50<MinchinWeb>is it just straight up HP, or do I need to play with weight or TE?
14:50<andythenorth>also http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=47105&start=0
14:52<andythenorth>f
14:52<andythenorth>?
14:52<andythenorth>oops
14:53<andythenorth>mal-typed
14:53<andythenorth>if alberth turns up, see if you can persuade him that valid xhtml is far nicer than html 5
14:53<andythenorth>for web translator project
14:53*andythenorth has to go to the pub
14:53<andythenorth>hard times
14:57<+michi_cc>MinchinWeb: TE mostly controls acceleration from a stop, HP is more important for top speed, as is the air drag coefficient.
14:58<andythenorth>bye
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14:58<MinchinWeb>so no that we really care about realism, but what are 'normal' values to set the TE coefficient and Air drag coefficient at?
15:00<frosch123>the specs list some default value for air drag
15:00<frosch123>te is something between 5% and 25%
15:00<frosch123>for trains
15:06<+michi_cc>Modern electrics with AC motors usually go up to 30%.
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15:17<MinchinWeb>so what were steam locos rated at for TE coeffients?
15:21<oskari89>zBase seems a little bit untextured
15:21-!-Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:21<oskari89>And seas/rivers have no animation
15:22<oskari89>8bpp FTW
15:23<frosch123>MinchinWeb: just use 0.2 * (powered axles) / (total number of axles)
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15:24<frosch123>replace 0.2 with 0.3 for modern engines with electronic systems to increase te
15:25<MinchinWeb>ok thanks!
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16:10<oskari89>Who did Logic Train?
16:10<Rubidium>Spock?
16:10<oskari89>It has a maximum speed of 1233 kph regardless of parameter setting
16:11<oskari89>Ammler, V453000?
16:11<oskari89>Should be fixed
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16:13<oskari89>Parameters read 0 35000 at newgrf settings window, and when clicking set parameters, the second parameter changes, not the first one
16:13<oskari89>And first one sets the speed... (?)
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16:31<V453000>that is rather strange :d
16:31<oskari89>Yes
16:31<oskari89>It worked in some version but nowadays it doesn't
16:32<oskari89>Logic engine 0.6 worked well
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16:32<LordAro>heyo
16:33<oskari89>And there is only one parameter configured on that Logic Train 0.6, manually (number of parametres, set parameter amount)
16:34<oskari89>Seems that 0.7 somehow skips the first parameter and leaves it zero
16:35<frosch123>night
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16:35<Bad_Brett>Hey Aro!
16:35<oskari89>V453000: Try yourself using 1.3.0 RC1?
16:36<V453000>I will check it
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16:39<LordAro>hai Bad_Brett!
16:40<Bad_Brett>hai? you sound like tommy wiseau
16:41<Bad_Brett>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mMyV2YQgAA
16:41<Bad_Brett>best movie ever
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16:59<V453000>oskari89: fixed, on fruit market
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17:11<oskari89>Thanks :)
17:15<V453000>reward for reporting :P
17:16<oskari89>No problem :)
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17:21<oskari89>V453000: Can't set power over 32000?
17:21<V453000>no?
17:21<V453000>it would just overflow anyway
17:22<oskari89>Ok.
17:22<V453000>hm documentation says 65k
17:22<V453000>but that I set originally and it overflowed twice so it gave 32000 again
17:22<oskari89>Ok, you should correct that :)
17:23<oskari89>That documentation :)
17:23<oskari89>"Up to 65000"
17:24<V453000>I mean this documentation http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles
17:24<oskari89>Yep :P
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17:37<NGC3982>tommy wiseau <3.
17:50<@Terkhen>good night
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19:00<MinchinWeb>why is it that when unit settings are shown in imperial, TE is still measued in kN?
19:01<@peter1138>because nobody could be bothered with lbf
19:03<@peter1138>also note that mass is also given in tonnes
19:03<@peter1138>which is also metric
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19:33<MinchinWeb>it seems we also ignore the fact that the conversion from mass to weight should use 9.81 instead of 10...
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19:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but people complain when the km/h-mph conversion is 0.1% off
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20:17<MinchinWeb>Maybe someone here understand this better than I... I have an engine: 103t, 750hp, TE=309kN and I'm trying to figure out how fast it will go
20:18<MinchinWeb>I found the formula S = (375 x HP) / T.E. (lbs.) where S is speed in mph, HP is horsepower, and T.E. is tractive effort in lbs
20:19<MinchinWeb>by that I get a speed of 4mph... but in-game it tops out at 53mph
20:19<MinchinWeb>what am I missing here?
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 21 00:00:57 2013