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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-23

---Logopened Sat Feb 23 00:00:59 2013
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00:23<Supercheese>you could check the source code, if you haven't already
00:31<Supercheese>Vehicle.cpp lines 895-899 seem relevant
00:38<Supercheese>I can't immediately see anything that would lead to the pattern described
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02:09<Pikka>I blame peter1138, naturally
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03:06<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:24<andythenorth>time for baby minding
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03:24<Supercheese>Well, that was quick
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04:24<DDR>Hey, guys, quickie question:
04:25<DDR>Does anyone know of an editor that lets you have duplicates of an area, so that when you edit one instance of the area you edit them all?
04:31<Supercheese>Sort of like search & replace in all/opened files?
04:31<Supercheese>Or more of a side-by-side/tiled approach?
04:31<Supercheese>Notepad++ can do side-by-side I think
04:32<Supercheese>anyway, good night
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04:55<Wolf01>hi o/
05:03<Wolf01> whoa, I had to check the bigger picture to figure out these engines are made out of lego
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05:14<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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05:44<DDR>I actually meant graphically, like, for a .png or something. :P
05:45<DDR>Not even inter-file, just within itself. I think it'd be useful for testing if my tiles... tile.
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05:57<jonty-comp>i think the GRFMaker pixel editor used to do that
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06:04-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
06:04<@peter1138>meant but didn't specify :p
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06:13<andythenorth>hi Alberth
06:14<@Terkhen>hi Alberth and andythenorth
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06:38<andythenorth>pikka o/
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06:50<andythenorth>over there
06:50<andythenorth>on the stair
06:51<Pikka>how rare
06:52<Pikka> whoops
06:52<andythenorth>Pikka: you were driving? o_O
06:53<Pikka>I never did anything that bad
06:54<Pikka>worst thing I ever did was run into a stationary van full of coppers, while my trainer was a passenger on the bus :D
06:54<andythenorth>oops :)
06:56<andythenorth>Alberth: what credit line do you want on the footer of Web Translator?
06:56<andythenorth>OpenTTD Coop?
06:57<Pikka>and trap a little girl's head between the back door and the ticket machine, but that was a design flaw in the bus. :)
06:57<andythenorth>An OpenTTD project?
06:57<@Alberth>no idea, really. Currently it's newgrf translations only
06:58<andythenorth>we are coop yes?
06:58<@Alberth>if you credit me, you should credit yourself too :)
06:58<@Alberth>coop is fine for me
06:58<Pikka>coop :o
06:58<Pikka>nobody here but us
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07:00<@Alberth>not any more :)
07:00<andythenorth>should I make newgrfs?
07:01<Pikka>landslides and curry houses
07:01<frosch123>wild weather.. pff
07:02<frosch123>that's neither freezing cold, not > 40°C
07:02<frosch123>db is far better with such situations
07:02<andythenorth>spose I could add random ship graphics
07:02<andythenorth>that needs doing :P
07:03*Rubidium remembers those sauna ICEs
07:03<Rubidium>apparantly people didn't like it
07:03<frosch123>yeah, they collapsed
07:03<frosch123>or tried to smash the windows at > 180 km/h and such :)
07:04<Pikka>frosch: temperature is neither here nor there when you have 130km/h winds and a metre of rain in a day :)
07:05<fonsinchen>What formula should I use to calculate the expected run time of a link graph job in ticks?
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07:05<frosch123>hmm, what's the current version of heqs?
07:06<fonsinchen>2^#nodes / big_static_number + other_static_number in theory
07:06<Rubidium>frosch123: how about "latest" or "nice"?
07:06<Pikka>"current" is good too
07:06<frosch123>"most recent" according to topic
07:07<andythenorth>frosch123: the one on Bananaananananaaa
07:07<Rubidium>fonsinchen: I'm not sure how well estimations would actually go; in fast forward they take more ticks, if it is a single core single thread CPU they take more ticks as well
07:07<andythenorth>repo says HEQS 1.5.5
07:08<andythenorth>that's over 12 months old :(
07:08<Rubidium>fonsinchen: then there's also the issues with memory/cpu caches
07:08<andythenorth>HEQS is dying!
07:08<Rubidium>actually, if the repository is mercurial... then the most recent version is never a tagged version
07:08<Pikka>too much bad rendering
07:08<frosch123>ah, right.. i rememeber deleting my bananas folder
07:08<frosch123>that's why i only have 1.2 :p
07:09<andythenorth>probly rubbish
07:09<fonsinchen>Well, currently it's just "whatever you set as recalc_interval". That is about the worst estimation you can get.
07:09<frosch123>it greeted me with a lot of "grf is broken" messages :)
07:09<frosch123>so i wondered whether i broke something, or whether i just used the wrong version :)
07:11<fonsinchen>But maybe I should keep it static after all. Like this I can just say "increase the interval" to anyone who runs into problems. Finding a working formula is probably very hard.
07:12<fonsinchen>Has anyone ever had problems with the standard 16 days interval, btw? I remember that one guy who was playing the Cindini map with tons and tons of stations.
07:18<Rubidium>fonsinchen: maybe, in single player without fast forward and pausing, you could detect that the recalc interval is overrun regularly and then suggest to increase the recalc time with some explanations of the repercussions
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07:43<fonsinchen>I'll stick to the configurable interval with default 16 days for now. The extra overrun detection can be done later.
07:43<+michi_cc>andy, andy, andy... ;)
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09:50<CAN> I finally get a working version of openttd to my Nokia Phone it's a version named r15770. I would like to connect it with my PC for online gaming but i'm having trouble to find a pc version of openttd r15770 ,anyone any idea where can i get it?
09:51<frosch123>from svn
09:51<frosch123>i doubt anyone has a 4 year old random nightly around
09:51<frosch123>so you have to checkout that specific version from the source repository
09:51<frosch123>and compile it yourself
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10:00<CAN>what is svn?
10:01<@Alberth>a version control system, keeping all 25036 versions that existed
10:01<@Alberth>look for "subversion"
10:04<@Alberth>andy, you didn't add static files yet?
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10:12<andythenorth>Alberth: not yet
10:12<andythenorth>been trying to buy a car :P
10:13<frosch123>don't go for a crawler or rail vehicle, they are quite slow
10:14<andythenorth>buying cars is....cold
10:14<andythenorth>at least in February
10:14<wojteks86>what car are you after?
10:14<andythenorth>a big one
10:14<@Alberth>yeah, but since many people think that way, you can get a good bargain :)
10:14<frosch123>likely a 10 truck-consist
10:15<andythenorth>we have car seat problems
10:15<andythenorth>car seats are big
10:15<andythenorth>right, let's make some web translator
10:15<wojteks86>any updates? been there today and no new strings for me :D
10:16<frosch123>web translator != web translator :)
10:17<wojteks86>I know what != is, but I dont understand you :P
10:17<@Alberth>wojteks86: if you're bored, translate the tutorial GS :)
10:18<@Alberth>not sure you can actually use that, perhaps check that first :)
10:18<frosch123>english is a context sensitive language. if albert talks with andy about webtranslators, it's not wt3 which ottd-translators know :)
10:18<wojteks86>yes, I would have to read the whole tutorial first, then try to translate :) but OK, where do I find the strings? or is it on the wiki?
10:19<wojteks86>thanks frosch
10:19<@Alberth>wojteks86: I meant I am not sure you can use polish strings in a GS
10:19<wojteks86>I see
10:19<@Alberth>strings are in the tar file, I think
10:19<frosch123> <- i don't know whether zuu is looking for translations
10:21<@Alberth> is the project page of the tutorial
10:21<wojteks86>yep, there is no Polish translation yet
10:21<wojteks86>been there, but was trying to go alphabetically through all the GRFs
10:21<@Alberth> there is a german version
10:21<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm not sure where to put the static declarations. Is there some kind of main class or dispatcher?
10:21<wojteks86>so I did av8, then firs and few others
10:22<@Alberth>andythenorth: is the main entry point
10:22<@Alberth>I import all page/* files there
10:26<wojteks86>are you guys doing some work in c++ for OTTD? I have a question about window positioning
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10:33<@Alberth>is /me working in c++ for OTTD a pre-condition for asking your question?
10:33<@Alberth>in that case, you're out of luck, I am reporting a bug at the moment, and then I'll do some Python program fixing
10:33<wojteks86>probably yes, because it is related to the OTTD code, not generally c++
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10:34<@Alberth>but otherwise, just ask the question :)
10:34<wojteks86>I must stop asking pre-questions... :P
10:35<@Alberth>that may help :)
10:35<wojteks86>do you know how the window positioning works in OTTD? there are 4 cases: auto, manual, allign to toolbar and some other which I dont remember
10:35<wojteks86>whatever I set in the code, seems to be ignored for windows but gui
10:36<wojteks86>that means - if I change something from auto to allign to toolbar - it will work just as it did before the change
10:37<@Alberth>I suspect there are other conditions that must hold as well
10:37<wojteks86>there are other attributes
10:38<@Alberth>toolbar alignment is typically done for direct child windows, but I don't know whether that is a requirement
10:38<wojteks86>right, so how about manual?
10:39<wojteks86>right after the position, there are x & y
10:39<wojteks86>whatever they are (even 0,0 ) doesnt make any difference to the new window position
10:39*Alberth looks for the source code
10:41<wojteks86>check orders_gui.cpp for example
10:41<@Alberth>LocalGetWindowPlacement in windows.cpp does the magic (around line 1460)
10:44<wojteks86>well, that was quick...
10:44<@Alberth>I know my way in the gui system, I rewrote most of it :)
10:45<wojteks86>must have been a lot of work...
10:45<wojteks86>if a lot is enough?
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10:46<@Alberth>the orders gui has a WC_VEHICLE_VIEW parent it seems, so I would expect it takes the "if" above the "switch", ie it never even looks at the auto-thingie
10:46<@Alberth>you should check that with a debugger or so,
10:46<andythenorth>Alberth: pull eints ;)
10:46<andythenorth>I have a new colour scheme
10:47<@Alberth>let's see :)
10:48<@Alberth>hmm, very RED :)
10:48<andythenorth>like it? :)
10:50<@Alberth> <-- wojteks86, good colour for a web translator? :)
10:51<wojteks86>I speak for myself - my eyes would pop out after w hile
10:51<@Alberth>I think you picked a wrong career andy, you should have become a fireman :)
10:51<wojteks86>pale dark yellow would be fine
10:52<andythenorth>Alberth: pull again :P
10:53<@Alberth>much better :)
10:53<andythenorth>got some problem finding site root
10:53<frosch123>let me guess... black on black?
10:53<andythenorth>in my static route
10:54<andythenorth>Alberth: try going to some project
10:54<andythenorth>there will be 404s for the static assets
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10:54<andythenorth>ah, found the solution
10:55<@Alberth>WDP_AUTO, 384, 100 <-- wojteks86 those numbers are default window size, they are not position
10:56<wojteks86>I know, but I referred to another window using WDP_ other than auto and these values were set to 0 0 so I thought this may have something to do with it
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11:01<andythenorth>Alberth: need to use get_url, but can't get it to import
11:01<andythenorth>ImportError: cannot import name get_url
11:02<andythenorth>it is defined in, so I am puzzled
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11:03<@Alberth>there is a lenghty discussion about this in the manual, bla and bla/ are different things according to the official definition
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11:04<andythenorth>that would be uncontroversial
11:04<andythenorth>what's puzzling is why I can't import get_url
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11:07<tracerpt>gd afternoon all
11:07<@Alberth>andythenorth: @Shawn: You should either supply it as a template argument (get_url=get_url in the call to template) <-- that comment?
11:07<andythenorth>just importing to a class fails
11:07<andythenorth>I don't get as far as template
11:08<andythenorth>I'll paste
11:08<andythenorth>I cargo culted that
11:08<andythenorth>ImportError: cannot import name get_url
11:09<andythenorth>yet it's right there on l649 of
11:09<andythenorth>ho ho
11:09<andythenorth>how long has '**kargs" been valid python :o
11:09<andythenorth>that's new
11:10<@Alberth>url = make_default_app_wrapper('get_url') <-- it's called 'url' at global level, it seems
11:10<@Alberth>**args? a long time, I think
11:10<andythenorth>url imports ok
11:11<@Alberth>but does it work? :)
11:12<andythenorth>can't figure out how to expose it
11:17<andythenorth>might be onto something
11:18<andythenorth>how intreseting
11:19<@Alberth>def send_static(filename):
11:19<@Alberth> return static_file(filename, root='static/files')
11:20<andythenorth>I've solved it by importing url to main_template.tpl
11:20<andythenorth>didn't know I could import directly to templates :)
11:21<@Alberth>my solution looks wrong, tbh
11:22<@Alberth>very nice :)
11:23<@Alberth>b/webtranslate/ <-- seems to import a bit too much? :)
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11:30*Alberth time for dinner
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12:04<andythenorth>Alberth: pull ;)
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13:16<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25037 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2013-02-23 18:15:54 UTC)
13:16<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5480]: green path signals would be shown when building them 'under' a train, and they would keep showing green until they were passed again
13:18<__ln__>a grocery nearby me is selling norwegian salmon filet, and they've labeled all the packages with a label saying "does not contain horse meat"
13:20<@Alberth>so you've asked about mad cow disease, right?
13:20<Psyk>I like horses! In sausages for example...
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13:21<@Alberth>you need a LOT of sauce to put a horse in it!
13:22<Rubidium>how can they be sure? maybe the fish were fed horses in some way
13:23<frosch123>Psyk: put a big label on them "contains horse meat"
13:24<__ln__>btw, the same grocery sells horse meat.
13:25<frosch123>ah, so there are two big arrows just after the entry? "horse stuff left, everything else right"?
13:28<__ln__>more like they're making fun of the whole issue by labeling the fish
13:29<Rubidium>not "free range 'beef' left", "bio industry beef right"?
13:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25038 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2013-02-23 18:29:55 UTC)
13:30<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5479]: minimise gaps feature caused removal to only happen at the signal build interval instead of the implicit interval of 1
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13:35<tracerpt>lol psyk
13:35<tracerpt>i want a lasagna from findus :(
13:36<tracerpt>always wanted to own a share of a racing horse :|
13:36<frosch123>cat lasagna?
13:36<frosch123>hmm, i think cat meat in lasagna would be quite entertaining
13:37<frosch123>where can i start such business?
13:37<Psyk>its said, that cat meat is a bit sweet...
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25039 /trunk/src/lang (5 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-23 18:45:28 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 6 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<@DorpsGek>gaelic - 334 changes by GunChleoc
13:45<@DorpsGek>swedish - 2 changes by Joel_A
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14:01<tracerpt>how long have u guys been working on TTD mods?
14:02<Rubidium>does "too" count?
14:06*Alberth likes the nav bar
14:09<andythenorth>fixing some forms
14:10<andythenorth>Alberth: would be really useful to figure out how to automatically reload classes / templates ;)
14:10<andythenorth>writing html + css is very slow with restart for every change :)
14:11<@Alberth> ???
14:15<andythenorth>I added that to
14:15<andythenorth>, host='localhost', port=8000)
14:15<andythenorth>doesn't seem to reload templates
14:15<andythenorth>debug mode should do template reloading
14:16<@Alberth>we already do that, don't we?
14:18<andythenorth>seems not :)
14:18<andythenorth>I just pushed it
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14:24<@Alberth>please pull
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14:55<andythenorth>Alberth: what changed in upload_lang?
14:55<andythenorth>I made lots of styling changes there :)
14:55<andythenorth>need to merge
14:56<@Alberth>removed <label for="is_existing">Language already exists in the project:</label> <input type="checkbox" name="is_existing" id="is_existing" /><br />
14:56<@Alberth>as it was not used :)
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15:00<andythenorth>merge hassles
15:01<andythenorth>hg up --clean is bad
15:02<andythenorth>oh well, I'll just rewrite all that code again :)
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15:04<@Alberth>always do a "hg diff > my.patch" first before doing anything dangerous :)
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15:05<andythenorth>I love distributed vcs :P
15:07<jonty-comp>aww, there's nothing in NARS in 1927 to carry livestock
15:14<Superuser>#openttd - what is YOUR favourite Linux text editor? No Emacs or Vim allowed! (looking for a good *modern* text editor)
15:15<__ln__>eFTE... modern, umm, well, for some values of modern.
15:15<@peter1138>erm, vim
15:15<jonty-comp>clearly nano
15:15<Superuser>must have CUA
15:15<@Alberth>Superuser: just try a few
15:15<Superuser>and code folding (so gedit is out)
15:16<__ln__>what's CUA?
15:16<Superuser>Common User Access, have you never used Emacs?
15:16<@Alberth>CIA with a U
15:16<Superuser>I'm just tired of emacs' 1980s BS
15:16<Superuser>same goes for Vim
15:16<@peter1138>you need a mouse eh?
15:16<Superuser>anyone know good graphical text editors? Everyone loves nano ofc (me included)
15:16<jonty-comp>if i am doing proper development of anything i use sublime text 2
15:16<jonty-comp>that's awesome
15:17<Superuser>but I need something more advanced, with code folding etc
15:17<@peter1138>i use vim, vim or vim
15:17<__ln__>Superuser: see eFTE.
15:17<Superuser>You know I've heard amazing things about that, but the price seems a bit steep for a development tool. If it was a compiler it would be justified, but...
15:17<jonty-comp>oh, i didn't pay for it :P
15:17<jonty-comp>the 'evaluation' is fully featured and has no time limit
15:18<jonty-comp>it just pops up when you save every ~5 times
15:18<Superuser>rotfl really?
15:18<Superuser>well that's silly
15:18<jonty-comp>oh, sublime text 3 is in beta :o
15:18<Superuser>thanks __ln__, I'll check it out
15:18<Superuser>looks pretty good, X11 interface so should be fast
15:24<frosch123>during kde3 times i used kate
15:24<frosch123>which had code folding though i never liked such a thing
15:25<Superuser>Kate is a brilliant editor
15:25<frosch123>at the beginning of kde4 every application including kate turned into a hitting-a-wrong-key-crashes-it-all thing
15:25<Superuser>(only ever used kde4)
15:25*ToBeFree loves Kate, just saying
15:25<frosch123>no idea at what state kde4 is nowadays
15:25<frosch123>but since then i have been using geany
15:26<Superuser>But the first time I tried it was at v4.6 (first time I tried Linux seriously, too!), so I missed the KDE4 fiasco
15:26<frosch123>it has no code folding at my side, but maybe i disabled it :p
15:26<Superuser>the best DE after Unity, easily
15:26<Superuser>Unity's HUD is a killer app for me, plus I like the idea of 1 thing on the screen at a time
15:27<Superuser>for some reason I can't use GNOME Shell to save my life, lol
15:27<jonty-comp>i enjoyed gnome shell on my old tablet PC
15:27<jonty-comp>unity makes baby jesus cry
15:27<Superuser>only ever used it on the desktop
15:27<jonty-comp>that said, i plan on installing ubuntu on my tablet when they eventually make it work properly
15:27<Superuser>what do you use jonty-comp
15:27<jonty-comp>on my desktop? windows :P
15:28<Superuser>get outta here
15:28<jonty-comp>i'm allowed to though, i run 15 debian servers
15:28<Superuser>needs moar desktop linux
15:28<jonty-comp>and an office of windows/mac workstations
15:28<Superuser>also Debian sucks, so out of date
15:28<jonty-comp>we used to have one desktop linux pc that was a crappy old tower that we had nothing else to do with
15:28<jonty-comp>but nobody other than me used it
15:29<jonty-comp>so i threw it out and put two old powermacs there instead
15:29<jonty-comp>at least people can use photoshop on them
15:29<Superuser>freedom hater :P
15:29<jonty-comp>i will use linux on desktop when someone invents a DE that doesn't make me want to kill baby gerbils
15:29<Superuser>KDE + Unity, go!
15:30<jonty-comp>next ubuntu on my desktop will probably be xfcebunto
15:30<andythenorth>powermacs are so dead :)
15:30<Superuser>I actually removed the Windows partition for good 2 days ago
15:30<Superuser>never been happier :)
15:30<jonty-comp>andythenorth: but they look like Mac Pros, so they impress people that come in the office
15:30<jonty-comp>so long as they don't actually *use* them
15:30<Superuser>Xfce sucks donkey penis
15:30<jonty-comp>then they'll realise that they're huge, loud, power-hogging piles of shite
15:31<Superuser>lol your workplace sounds awesome
15:31<jonty-comp>we have two brand-new iMacs too, they're somewhat nicer
15:32<jonty-comp>actually, i haven't used E17 for a long time, i should try that out again
15:34<Superuser>E17 is dickballs
15:34<Superuser>it crashed X ffs
15:34<Superuser>never used it since
15:34<@Alberth>opengl for desktops is insane
15:34<Superuser>that was 1.5 years ago
15:34<Superuser>probably not much better now, even though it's out of alpha
15:35<@peter1138>it works but doesn't fit in with anything
15:36<Superuser>hey who was the guy who recommended eFTE?
15:36<__ln__>who, me?
15:36<Superuser>this thing doesn't support Unicode
15:36<__ln__>aren't you in england?
15:36<Superuser>does that mean I'm British?
15:36<__ln__>besides, i said: 22:15 < __ln__> eFTE... modern, umm, well, for some values of modern.
15:37<Superuser>45% of London classified itself as White British
15:37<jonty-comp>peter1138: for political correctness you must now use €
15:37<Superuser>Which is why I'm leaving
15:37<Superuser>not living in London though
15:37<@peter1138>why is that disgusting?
15:37<Superuser>that figure is from the 2012 census btw
15:37<__ln__>they can't classify themselves as black british if they're white, can they?
15:37<Superuser>because the majority of them don't fit in, they are black or muslim
15:38<Superuser>no, it's illegal to lie on it
15:38<jonty-comp>actually, i should install ubuntu on this desktop
15:38<jonty-comp>it would be most useful
15:38<__ln__>let me correct myself: *african american british
15:38<jonty-comp>but do I do it in virtualbox or as a partition?
15:38<@peter1138>don't install ubuntu
15:38<@peter1138>much simpler
15:38<Psyk>install mint!
15:38<Superuser>Americans of course don't understand the issue of the Ageing of Europe, they've always been in a multicultural country (where multiculturalism doesn't work)
15:39<@peter1138>the issue of what?
15:39<__ln__>Superuser: who needs Unicode, 8-bit charsets ought to be enough for anyone.
15:39<Superuser>people who use non-Latin characters in their folder names, for one
15:40<Superuser>they don't come up
15:40<__ln__>non-Latin doesn't necessarily imply Unicode.
15:40<__ln__>but I agree, the lack of Unicode support is eFTE's greatest disadvantage.
15:41<Rubidium>Superuser: I reckon you use non Latin characters in folder names as well
15:41<Rubidium>starting with the "u"
15:42<Superuser>non-ASCII then
15:43<__ln__>i don't think eFTE has a problem with non-ASCII per se, it just doesn't handle UTF-8.
15:43<frosch123>can it handle "§" ?
15:43<frosch123>or does it crash like the average dos application?
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15:45<__ln__>crashing dos apps with § is news to me
15:46<frosch123>it's because in the dos codepage § was a character < 32
15:46<frosch123>i.e. technically not ascii, but a control char
15:46<frosch123>most applications did not expect that there are keyboards which allow entering such things
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15:46<@Alberth>your keyboard does not allow \n ? :)
15:47<frosch123>only \r
15:47<frosch123>and \t
15:47<@peter1138>and ^A, ^B, ^C...
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16:46<+glx><jonty-comp> but do I do it in virtualbox or as a partition? <-- latest ubuntu is dead slow in virtual box
16:51<jonty-comp>good job i started installing it on a partition then
16:52<jonty-comp>i can load the physical device up in virtualbox if i want to anyway
16:52<jonty-comp>unless they broke that
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17:22<jonty-comp>i have to admit, ubuntu + unity has gotten a lot better since the last time i used it
17:22<jonty-comp>i still hate the default window decorations though
17:22<jonty-comp>at least the whole UI isn't overpoweringly purple any more
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17:50<jonty-comp>so many package updates
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19:42<Pokka>any OpenTTD forum mods still awake? :)
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20:02<Jasperthecat1>I always go on the forums at 8:00PM. That's when the nightly database backup is running.
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 24 00:00:01 2013