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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-25

---Logopened Mon Feb 25 00:00:02 2013
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02:09*peter1138 await the arrival of coffee
02:09<Twofish>Does it "arrive"?
02:10<@peter1138>it does if the wifey brings it
02:10<Twofish>Lucky you ;) I usually need to get it myself :/
02:11<@peter1138>i probably will too in this case
02:11<Twofish>Just arrived at work. Could do with some coffee too, but got to get it myself here aswell...
02:12<Twofish>... so, just checking that everything is up before taking some long minutes to get a cup and some coffee :)
02:15<@peter1138>ff
02:15<@peter1138>hmm
02:17<@peter1138>all keys now working
02:17<@peter1138>except }
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02:25<andythenorth>might as well jump
02:25<@peter1138>do, de, do, do de, do de do dum duuuuum
02:25<Supercheese>Bungee jump?
02:27<andythenorth>Monday morning Van Halen innit
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03:13<Pokka>isn't it
03:14<Pokka>deffo need newsmoke
03:15<Pokka>with big american steam engines, and "big" diagonals, the steam particles are now generated too low :o
03:22<andythenorth>newnewgrfneweffects
03:22<Pokka>yes
03:27<Supercheese>+1
03:29<V453000>what are big diagonals? :o
03:29<Pokka>http://pikkarail.com/openttd/a-matter-of-perspective/
03:31<V453000>never cared about those values :D I just draw how it feels at that moment
03:34<V453000>also for vehicles which are not with square roof, it is a bit hard to tell :P
03:34<Pokka>true
03:35<V453000>either way I think keeping the heights the same of both diagonals and side views is just fine
03:36<Pokka>most of the MUs and such in NUTS seem to be drawn that way, I had to hunt through to find that steam engine ;)
03:37<V453000>those steam engines are a bit weird, those are one of the last things remaining from version 0.0.1, I intend to redraw those
03:37<V453000>I think the diagonal view is a bit weird
03:38<V453000>height-wise, not sure
03:38*Pokka shrugs
03:38<Pokka>mb will tell me I'm doing it wrong, either way
03:39<Pokka>and with the lighting too, I'm pretty much just mirroring diagonals :P
03:39<Supercheese>:O
03:39<V453000>personally I think it is very hard to make a convention especially if you consider those small things like such a steamer, because sometimes the one pixel can be missing, sometimes not
03:39<V453000>Pokka: me too, almost always :D
03:39<Pokka>life's too short and company colour shades too few :)
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03:40<Supercheese>32bpp, full spectrum of brightnesses ;)
03:40<V453000>shades are okay, but I just dont think it is worth drawing that
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03:40<V453000>in most cases anyway
03:42<Supercheese>Well, good night folks
03:42<Supercheese>hasta mañana
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03:44<andythenorth>mirroring diagonals
03:45<andythenorth>shameful
03:45<andythenorth>you'd never find that in the original graphics :P
03:45<Pokka>nope
03:45<andythenorth>not in some vehicles
03:45<andythenorth>nor entire houses
03:46*andythenorth to the work
03:46<andythenorth>bye
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03:54<V453000>Pokka: big steamers ... they sort of keep the height
03:54<V453000>I believe they come from the template below them (the caterpillar with a face)
03:54<V453000>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/RailICEsteam_2.png
03:55<Pokka>yeah
03:56<V453000>but my point is, if you inspect it closely, sometimes it is shifted a pixel here and there or such, just cause it fits more in that situation
03:56<V453000>so rules ~whatever :)
03:56<Pokka>oh, absolutely :)
03:57<Pokka>but if you look at, for example, the template image mb just linked to in a thread... the diagonals of the template are lower than the horizontal :)
03:57<Pokka>so, inasmuch as mb's template is "right", "right" is wrong. :P
03:58<V453000>:D which thread btw?
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03:59<Pokka>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=64507
04:02<V453000>right :)
04:03<V453000>most of my vehicles come from the caterpillar template, but some differ and I dont even know which anymore tbh
04:03<V453000>I usually just make some "convention" for trains which are connecting together so they fit nicely
04:04<V453000>my top favourite template is the maglev from NUTS actually, making the trains fatter
04:05<V453000>for 4/8 wagon it means it is as wide as long
04:05<V453000>which means you dont have to mirror diagonals because they are automatic if you make the sides the same :D
04:06<V453000>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/maglevhopper.png
04:06<V453000>1 sprite for 4 directions ftw
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04:09<V453000>and to the topic, the -- sprites are actually 1px LOWER than the diagonals :D
04:10<Pokka>omg inconsistency :)
04:10<V453000>admittedly they dont look too square in that view, but that always gets deformed
04:15<Pokka>yes, the difference in vehicle length between the diagonal and horizontal is not anything we can do anything about, unfortunately
04:18<@planetmaker>I really wonder whether there's no way to properly-sized vehicles in the diagonals...
04:18<Pokka>too many knock-on effects, I think
04:18<@planetmaker>... but I've no real good idea to tackle that even conceptually
04:18<@planetmaker>yes... :S
04:19<Pokka>not least of which would be that at the moment, two full-length vehicles == one tile
04:20<Pokka>it's part of the charm... wouldn't be TTD if you fixed it :P
04:20<@planetmaker>he :D
04:21<V453000>+1 :)
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04:52<joey8>hi - ttd 1.2.3 can anyone tell me how to stop those annoying blue panel messages with info on "message from manufacturers" please
04:52<joey8>i have switched off all other message yet this one still displays
04:55<V453000>shouldnt you be rather happy you get a vehicle earlier? :D
04:55<V453000>I dont think you can disable that message however
04:55<V453000>I assume it got annoying because you added a shitload of vehicle sets
04:56<@peter1138>dynamicengines ... remove it?
04:56<@peter1138>though ukrs addons might conflict with ukrs then :p
04:57<joey8>yup
04:59*joey8 sighs
04:59<joey8>thanx anyway
04:59<V453000>removing features doesnt mean it becomes idiotproof peter1138 :P
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05:01<V453000>also honestly most train sets massively benefit from having a friend in the game with them
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05:09<Pokka>joey8: if you accept one and then don't build it, you won't get any more for a while.
05:09<joey8>ah really ok thanx
05:11<V453000>really? :o
05:11<V453000>I didnt know there is any condition about that
05:13<Pokka>http://wiki.openttd.org/Vehicles
05:13<Pokka>"If you accept an exclusive use offer but don't bother to build any of the new vehicle type, you won't get any more trial offers for the next 5 years."
05:13<Pokka>original TTD feature :)
05:13<V453000>thats nice
05:14<joey8>thanx very much pokka ヅ
05:14<@peter1138>Pokka, whether that actually works properly in ottd is another matter ;)
05:14<V453000>:DDD
05:14<Pokka>I assume that all info on the OpenTTD wiki is 100% accurate, peter1138
05:14<V453000>does it then?
05:15<jonty-comp>wikis are always 100% accurate, it's like the definition of a wiki
05:16<V453000>except always? :P
05:16<Pokka>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=52714 planetmaker seems to think it works.
05:27<V453000>I would believe him then
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06:53<@peter1138>maybe he'd read the wiki :)
06:58<Pokka>maybe your mother reads the news on channel 4
07:01<Pokka>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5484
07:01<Pokka>he's right you know :)
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08:20<Pokka>look out, it's andythenorth
08:21<jonty-comp>i much prefer bobbythesouth
08:21<Pokka>filthy
08:21<andythenorth>unruly
08:22<Pokka>and I mean that most sincerely, I really do
08:27<andythenorth>are you genuine? o_O
08:28<Pokka>yes
08:28<Pokka>like a a plague of German knee zeppelins
08:29<andythenorth>you have those now?
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08:45<Eddi|zuHause><Pokka> not least of which would be that at the moment, two full-length vehicles == one tile <-- well the obvious solution to that is to shorten the - and | views instead of making the / and \ views longer
09:01<V453000>Pokka: I dared to reply to your blog article :P
09:01<Pokka>good job :P
09:02<V453000>you might find some parts of it useful :)
09:02<V453000>hopefully
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09:10<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see any reply, is it stuck in some moderation queue or something?
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09:11<V453000>you might be observing a wrong post :D I replied to the older one
09:11<V453000>http://pikkarail.com/openttd/state-of-the-onion-a-history-and-future-of-my-newgrfs/ diz
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>ah
09:12<andythenorth>talking on the internet, not on tt-forums
09:12*andythenorth is perplexed
09:12<andythenorth>how does that work? :)
09:13<V453000>im replying to the post not to some damn tt-f :P
09:13<andythenorth>V453000: this is nice http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3593/EngineTable.png
09:14<andythenorth>graphically as well as organising-ly
09:14<V453000>thanks :) spent like 4 days making it
09:16<@peter1138>far too much effort
09:18<V453000>effort you like doing is okay I guess :P
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>how is your effort doing a similar table for each of the CETS selections going? :p
09:18<andythenorth>can you do one for Squid please
09:18<andythenorth>with a nice background texture
09:18<andythenorth>ta
09:19<V453000>..
09:19<andythenorth>the set has a structure, I'll let you figure it out though ;)
09:19<V453000>Maybe not? :P
09:19<andythenorth>have it done by 5pm
09:19<V453000>:DDD ok
09:19<andythenorth>or you're fired
09:19<andythenorth>etc
09:19<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: are 90% trains green boxes so far? :D
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>more like 95% :)
09:20<V453000>CETS table
09:20<V453000>tada http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/111926-gimp-pattern-out-of-boredom/
09:20<V453000>million of trains
09:20<andythenorth>CETS is big eh? :D
09:35<Elukka>CETS still happening?
09:35<Pokka>what's a CETS?
09:36<Elukka>central european train set
09:36<Elukka>i drew a few sprites for it once upon a time but i failed to be terribly productive
09:36<Elukka>i still really want to play it, real length coaches and locomotives are the best thing :P
09:37<Pokka>V453000, your ideas are good, but with 10CC I'm not at all aiming for "as many options as possible". ;)
09:38<V453000>I expected you could get inspired by some of them Pokka, not try to replicate/challenge as many as possible :P
09:39<Pokka>well, that is to say
09:39<Pokka>10CC is almost like each set is one of your "classes" :) so the gameplay and optimal strategy is different depending on which set you use
09:40<Pokka>whether that will be interesting remains to be seen :)
09:42<@peter1138>brup
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09:50<V453000>right :)
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09:53<Eddi|zuHause>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/newgrf_random_seed.diff <-- so, how broken is this idea?
09:54<@planetmaker>what's the use, Eddi|zuHause ?
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: offering a "random" choice to the CETS parameters
09:55<@planetmaker>like a global random value? Hm
09:55<@planetmaker>Might be interesting
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, this would be global var 0x26
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09:56<Eddi|zuHause>the question is, is this value initialised already during grf activation stages?
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09:56<tracerpt>hi all
09:57<@planetmaker>At least the random_seed has a value before that, I assume. But yes, needs checking
09:57<@planetmaker>But you can explicitly set it in the map gen window... so... should be known
09:57<@planetmaker>so should exist at the very start of mapgen
09:57*Pokka too would very much like a universal seed available to newgrf
09:58<Pokka>universal/global
09:58<andythenorth>what would we do with it? o_O
09:58<jonty-comp>makes sense
09:59<jonty-comp>seed all the random parameters in your grf with it
09:59<Pokka>:]
09:59<jonty-comp>then if someone wants that exact combination of boxcars for whatever reason
09:59<jonty-comp>they can use that seed
09:59<Pokka>yeah. not that. :P
09:59<jonty-comp>depending on other parameters of course
09:59<jonty-comp>BUT I WANT THAT EXACT COMBINATION OF BOXCARS
09:59*jonty-comp tantrums
09:59<Pokka>but it would let me have a "random" option for each player's train set in 10CC, for example, andy.
10:00<@planetmaker>Of course it should be clearly noted, that a seed does not guarantee anything to be in whatever shape or form... but yes...
10:00*Pinkbeast owes the 10CC post a reply
10:00<@planetmaker>... should not boil down to "do until you have a random seed ending in 16" in order to get a behaviour "I need"
10:00<andythenorth>ho ho
10:00<@planetmaker>which is what I would fear would happen
10:01<Pokka>we need a name for this
10:01<Pokka>lakie's law? :)
10:01<andythenorth>madness?
10:01<Pokka>"I'm reluctant to add this feature because newgrf authors will use it to break the game"
10:02<@planetmaker>:-)
10:02<Pokka>happens every time ;)
10:03<Pokka>is the map seed even stored in the savegame, or is it thrown away after generation?
10:03<@planetmaker>I call it "thinking it through": looking at a feature from all sides one can think of and assessing the implications
10:03<@planetmaker>the seed remains known
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>Pokka: it's stored
10:03<Pokka>if it's stored, all you need to do is give newgrf access to it
10:03<@peter1138>i think it's stored, but it's not used
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>you can get it from command line
10:03<@planetmaker>you can use it for the restart(?) command
10:03<@planetmaker>and what eddi says
10:04<@peter1138>but if you have the random seed you can cheat by finding where the diamonds are on your local pc
10:04<@peter1138>hmm
10:04<@peter1138>no that's minecraft
10:04<@planetmaker>but only when you want to accept blue wagons, peter1138 ;-)
10:04<Pokka>planetmaker: my response to lakie's argument is that I can already make a newgrf full of vehicles which have 1hp, a 1 year lifespan and cost a million dollars.
10:05<Pokka>but no-one will use it
10:05<Pokka>and nor will they use any other grf I write that does stupid things
10:05<Pokka>so don't worry about newgrf authors doing stupid things, the worst they can do is make it so no-one uses their grf :)
10:05<@peter1138>erm
10:05<@peter1138>actually
10:05<@peter1138>if any grf is labelled pikka
10:05<@peter1138>everyone will just use it
10:06<Pokka>maybe for a little while, peter1138 :P
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>i don't use Pikkas grfs!! :p
10:06<andythenorth>me neither
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>(actually, i do use av8)
10:06-!-Twofish [~Twofish@0001308f.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>(but i hate planes)
10:06<@peter1138>only stupid things to worry about are those that cause desyncs
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>(actually, i mostly hate airports)
10:08<@planetmaker>Pokka, that goes on quite a tangent - and is no argument in any favour of anything
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it shouldn't if it's made sure that the random seed is set before grf activation. possibly it's Bad(TM) to use it to modify the action14, although that may be problematic already
10:08<@planetmaker>As it would argue "add any shit I can think of" similarily
10:10<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, i was talking about in general
10:10<@planetmaker>the question which IMHO must be answered is "is there another way for the same effect which is better"?
10:10<@planetmaker>e.g. giving a random value to each newgrf which is generated by OpenTTD based on the randomseed
10:10<@planetmaker>but not immediately known
10:11<@planetmaker>that for instance wouldn't make a difference to the newgrf developer. But for the end user experience - as in it being seemingly "more random"
10:12<@planetmaker>and possibly gives different results also on the order of NewGRFs.
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5487
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10:26<Pokka>a quasi-random value is a quasi-random value, planetmaker
10:26<Pokka>but I'd say there's some benefit to every grf having access to the same one
10:27<@peter1138>now limit it to 1 bit
10:27<Pokka>that would be less beneficial :)
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10:29<Pokka>planetmaker: it's not meant to be an argument in favour of anything
10:29<Pokka>merely an argument to counter "what I would fear would happen"
10:29<@planetmaker>but it doesn't counter that
10:30<Pokka>maybe I misunderstood what you meant, then
10:31<@planetmaker>I want to avoid something like "I need a random value ending in X for newgrf x and at the same time ending in Y for NewGRF y in order to get it 'right'"
10:31<Pokka>oh, from a player's point of view?
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so every grf would not get "seed" but "random^(n+1)(seed)" where n is the position in the grf list?
10:31<@planetmaker>I don't see that game being possible with map values...
10:32<@planetmaker>maybe, yes, Eddi|zuHause
10:32<@planetmaker>Pokka, yes. That was my concern.
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>and a^n is calling the a function recursively n times
10:32<@planetmaker>:D
10:33<Pokka>well, personally, I wouldn't use it for anything "obvious" that I didn't also give the player the option to set manually, because otherwise I agree, players would do that.
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>same for me, but one might as well do it "right" the first time around :)
10:33<Pokka>ie, the thing I'd use it for immediately would be parameters with options like "A, B, C, D, random"
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>so... how does this random system work?
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>Pokka: yes
10:34<@planetmaker>sure, Pokka, and in that I see no problem at all. On the contrary
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>Pokka: but i see planetmaker's two points, 1) people "cheating" by easily abusing the internals (weak point), 2) "correlation" between two grfs which read the same bits of the random seed
10:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, iirc - without looking it up again - the randomseed defines a starting number for the random generator. And then based on that subsequently random numbers can be issued... mind there's two random numbers: one for things which need be desync-safe, one for stuff where it doesn't matter
10:36<@planetmaker>we definitely want the first kind
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no, we need a third kind, one where we provide a new intitial random seed
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>then we can reproduce the random number exactly every time the variable is read, so we don't need to store anything
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>but what i actually wanted to know is: where in the code are these random functions defined?
10:38<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, one initial one suffices, if the number we generate from it follows a clear algorithm
10:39<@planetmaker>something like you suggested
10:39<@planetmaker>core/random_func.hpp and friends, I'd say
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>ah, hpp
10:40<@planetmaker>there's also a cpp
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>that explains why my grep didn't return anything :p
10:41<@planetmaker>I grepped for "Interactive" :D
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i grepped in *.h
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>so, i make a new Randomizer(); and then random.Next(n)?
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10:45<@peter1138>pointless
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean?
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>i can't seem to access the "grf position in list" property, though
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10:51<Eddi|zuHause>might be better to put the seed in a member in GRFFile
10:51<@planetmaker>I'm not too much worried about all newgrfs getting the same number... that actually might be beneficial.
10:51<@planetmaker>though each its own... doesn't hurt... maybe the random number for a grf would then simply need storing.
10:52<@planetmaker>And each NewGRF is assigned one upon map generation, that's it
10:52<@planetmaker>then the normal random number generators need not be changed and is just called once for each newgrf
10:57<Pokka>one global and one per grf would cover all bases? ;)
11:00<@planetmaker>yes
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like we run out of global variables any time soon :p
11:00<tracerpt>Is there a list on the compatibility of NewGRF's? In the game where I'm testing all this new stuff I downloaded, some don't seem to be activated, although they are active on the list
11:00<@planetmaker>there's no such list, tracerpt
11:01<tracerpt>guess it's hit and miss then :)
11:01<@planetmaker>but any newgrf you can download ingame *should* work. but maybe not with another newgrf you want to use concurrently
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>tracerpt: each NewGRF may or may not have its own list what it is compatible with
11:01<@planetmaker>e.g. you usually never can use two different industry newgrfs. And all pikka grfs need a parameter set to work properly
11:01<tracerpt>Yeah, I've seen some with warnings
11:02<tracerpt>i'm using FIRS
11:03<tracerpt>really liked it, there isn't a dull moment ingame anymore
11:05<tracerpt>back when the original TT was released I translated the game to portuguese so my dad could play, all this new stuff, too confusing for me lol
11:05<tracerpt>new stuff as in "recently found out about it"
11:07<@planetmaker>you could also help translate this game (or NewGRFs like FIRS :D )
11:07<Pokka>all pikka grfs need a parameter set to work properly wat?
11:07<Pokka>no they don't :o
11:07<@planetmaker>Pokka, your safety check for multiple engine sets. So technically maybe not all
11:07<Pokka>eh, old ones
11:07<Pokka>UKRS2 doesn't, av8 doesn't (as of today :))
11:08<Pokka>the ones which aren't vehicle sets don't :)
11:08<@planetmaker>:D k
11:09<@planetmaker>but nice :-) I'll adjust my explanation in the future :-)
11:09<@planetmaker>"Pikka's old vehicle sets..." ;-)
11:10<V453000>:D
11:10<@planetmaker>but I guess I also simply could say NARS / UKRS
11:10<V453000>why do you have that anyway Pokka?
11:10<V453000>if it can be disabled by parameter
11:11<@planetmaker>getting rid of the liability for graphics glitches
11:11<Pokka>pretty much
11:11<@planetmaker>due to newgrf incompatibility... but yes...
11:12<V453000>hm, can you think of an example of such a glitch?
11:12<V453000>I cant :o
11:12<Pokka>the parameter was basically a "click here to acknowledge you know what you're doing" button
11:12<V453000>right :)
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11:13<V453000>with an extra parameter "are you absolutely sure?" which then burns their PC? :D
11:13<@planetmaker>V453000, wagon / train alignment
11:14<Pokka>actual incompatibility is largely gone thanks to OpenTTD, but yes, things like that
11:14<@planetmaker>and mixing them from different sets
11:14<Pokka>and if people load WAS, planeset and Av8 together and have three different aircraft with the same name and wildly different stats
11:14<Pokka>indeed
11:14<V453000>right :) I solve that by not allowing the engines to attach anything else than their dedicated wagons
11:14<@planetmaker>he, that must also look funky then. Never tried WAS+av8+planeset
11:14<@peter1138>see
11:14<@peter1138>dynamicengines... should be removed
11:15<@planetmaker>lol
11:15<@peter1138>(but not 65535 engine ids)
11:15<tracerpt>planetmaker: if help is needed i could render some in my spare time
11:15<Pokka>then how would I do 10CC with separate grfs, peter1138 ?
11:15<@peter1138>use non-conflicting engine ids
11:15<Pokka>boring
11:15<@peter1138>yes
11:15<tracerpt>back then i used an hex editor to translate the text lol
11:15<@peter1138>dynamicengines allows multiple sets to use the "same" ids
11:16<@planetmaker>tracerpt, http://translators.openttd.org
11:16<tracerpt>will check it
11:16<@planetmaker>http://translator.openttd.org/en/status
11:16<@peter1138>the increased engine id limit is still there even with that off
11:16<@planetmaker>(one s too much)
11:16<tracerpt>first link doesn't workl
11:16<@planetmaker>yes ^
11:17<@peter1138>(dynamic engines probably should be removed and made default)
11:17<@planetmaker>it is default.
11:17<Pokka>I thought it had been
11:17<@planetmaker>it's still a setting, though
11:17<@planetmaker>but... possibly could be removed as setting
11:18<andythenorth>it's a silly setting
11:18<Pokka>it may be wanted by some for compatibility with very, very ancient newgrfs
11:18<Pokka>but I say remove it :D
11:18<tracerpt>Portuguese 99.6 % complete 15 untranslated
11:18<tracerpt>doens't say it needs translators :p
11:18<V453000>why would anyone turn that setting off ever anyway
11:19<Pokka>compatibility with very, very ancient newgrfs, V453000
11:19<@planetmaker>Pokka, are there some ancient newgrfs with add-on?
11:19<Pokka>I dunno
11:19<@planetmaker>maybe it's db-set + ecs/firs add-on. Though I think it (meanwhile) also uses the engine_override action
11:19<Pokka>it wouldn't surprise me if someone didn't once make a grf to modify something in dbset or something
11:19<V453000>I mean turning dynamic engine pool off
11:19<Pokka>not every newgrf which exists is known :)
11:19<@peter1138>wasn't there lv4 + lv4-scantily-clad
11:20<Pokka>something like that, peter1138
11:20<@peter1138>the dbset one has a hardcoded override lol
11:20<@planetmaker>tracerpt, there's also like http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/LATEST/translations/
11:21<@peter1138>hmm
11:21<@peter1138>ok
11:21<@peter1138>ukrs addons -> ukrs
11:21<@peter1138>dbsetxl ecs -> dbsetxl
11:21<@peter1138>lv4cut -> lv4
11:21<@peter1138>all hard coded overrides
11:21<@planetmaker>what else?
11:21<@planetmaker>how would dynamic overrides work? Change stats of random engine to ... :D
11:22<@peter1138>eh?
11:22<@peter1138>newgrfs can provide overrides of course
11:22<tracerpt>:o
11:22<@planetmaker>and re random variable for newgrfs: funny would be like "today I'm an industry NewGRF, in the next game I could be a vehicle set" :D (no, I don't mind that)
11:23<@planetmaker>peter1138, you meant hardcoded overrides as in not using the override feature to work with dynamic engines enabled?
11:23<tracerpt>bookmarked the translation stuff
11:23<@planetmaker>then I mis-understood you
11:23<tracerpt>will check it out later
11:23<Pokka>that would be good, planetmaker
11:23<@peter1138>what?
11:23<Pokka>I'll just put all my grfs in one file and use the random number to pick which ones get activated :)
11:24<@peter1138>i mean src/newgrf.cpp:9119
11:24<@peter1138>(so many lines in that file)
11:26<@planetmaker>wtf!
11:27<@planetmaker>and there someone shall come and say we don't care about NewGRF developers ;-)
11:28<Pokka>who would ever say that? :)
11:28<@planetmaker>though, peter1138, they were iirc previously part of the extra baseset. That was changed from there to the openttd internal place somewhen... one, two years ago, iirc
11:29<@planetmaker>Zusammenfassung: (svn r23232) -Change: move the "default" overrides out of the baseset in order to ensure they all use the same values
11:29<tracerpt>bbl gonna buy some 200more trains ;)
11:33<+michi_cc>Any daring OS X users around? You could test http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/openttd-custom-geeea764dM-OSX.zip for me. It contains a patch for FS#4744 (10.7 fullscreen support) and the proposed patch from FS#4392 (mouse problems). Completely untested by me, so caveat emptor :)
11:33<+michi_cc>And maybe I have broken 10.4 i386 with it, so if somebody still has that combination around...
11:34<@planetmaker>so that would need osx 10.7, right?
11:38<Maedhros>michi_cc: sure, i can try that (10.8 here)
11:38<+michi_cc>planetmaker: If everything is done right, fullscreen should work on everything.
11:39<+michi_cc>I.e. knowing that fullscreen isn't broken on 10.6 is just as important.
11:43<@peter1138>what's this, openttd devs with osx? :p
11:43<Maedhros>michi_cc: all seems to work, except that there's no mouse pointer in full screen until you've moved the mouse out of the window and back in (e.g. up to the menu bar and back)
11:44<@peter1138>fullscreen... window... what?
11:44<Maedhros>michi_cc: i do have a patch for that if you're interested, although i'm not sure it's the most sensible approach
11:44<+michi_cc>Maedhros: No clue how to fix that, but let's see anyway.
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11:46<Maedhros>michi_cc: http://blankfile.co.uk/openttd/fullscreen-mouse.diff
11:47<Maedhros>michi_cc: basically, going to fullscreen generates a mouseExit event, but not a mouseEnter afterwards
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11:49<andythenorth>hmm all grfs in one
11:49<andythenorth>interesting
11:50<andythenorth>grf.grf
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11:50<andythenorth>planetmaker michi_cc: I have 10.7
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11:50<andythenorth>can you remind me later tonight?
11:51<@planetmaker>michi_cc, can you repeat the link please? Backlog starts at my last babbling at university ;-)
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>bäh this grf loading code is confusing :/
11:53<+michi_cc>Maedhros: Any reason for the MAC_OS_X_VERSION_MAX_ALLOWED #ifs? Would these methods just not be called on < 10.7, or is it because of the things called in the methods? Anything that is not 10.5 SDK will not be in our compile farm builds.
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11:53<+michi_cc>planetmaker: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/openttd-custom-geeea764dM-OSX.zip
11:54<@planetmaker>ty
11:54<andythenorth>herp
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11:54<andythenorth>Pokka: FWIW I use loads of 0-4-0
11:54<Maedhros>michi_cc: no particular reason, no - just trying to be consistent with other code
11:54<andythenorth>in my games
11:54<andythenorth>but mostly for lol
11:54<Maedhros>like i said, probably not the most sensible approach :)
11:55<@planetmaker>michi_cc, it's to not compile-fail with earlier (or later) OSX-SDKs
11:55<@planetmaker>iirc that is
11:55<+michi_cc>It seems at least NSWindowDidEnterFullScreenNotification isn't defined in the 10.5 SDK, so either we'd need to duplicate the definition there or find a different way.
11:56<+michi_cc>planetmaker: I know, but that doesn't help if the target for the time being is the 10.5 SDK.
11:57<Pokka>andythenorth, 10CC scuddlesland edition, all 0-4-0s
11:57<Pokka>or something
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11:57<andythenorth>gives me an idea
11:58<V453000>andy having an idea sounds evil
11:58<Pinkbeast>I think I use HEQS vehicles for anything one might use an 0-4-0 for
11:58<andythenorth>0-4-0 Fast: 25 HP, 90mph
11:58-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4080.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
11:58<andythenorth>0-4-0 High TE, 10mph, weighs 200t
11:59<andythenorth>etc
11:59<andythenorth>want more power?
11:59<andythenorth>add more engines
12:01<Pokka>let's just give it random stats with the new random feature :)
12:01*Pokka bed
12:01<andythenorth>bye
12:01<Pokka>goodnight
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12:10<@peter1138>hmm[][ap][apd][sapd'
12:10<ToBeFree>oh, sorry
12:10<@peter1138>seems good for now
12:10<ToBeFree>xD
12:10<ToBeFree>I was detecting a bug in TuxBot, running on this network
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12:11<LordAro>heyo
12:12<__ln__>so Christoph Waltz won his second Academy Award®. for a good reason.
12:16<+michi_cc>Maedhros: Using window delegate, which might or might not work: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2135/ and http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/openttd-custom-geeea764dM-OSX-2.zip
12:17<+michi_cc>I hope that doesn't break < 10.7, if it works ar all :)
12:21*planetmaker tests
12:21<Maedhros>michi_cc: works for me
12:22<@peter1138>yay, i have my normal keyboard back
12:22<@peter1138>although it feels a little odd
12:23<@peter1138>probably just need everything to reseat
12:27<@planetmaker>michi_cc: works for me on OSX 10.6
12:27<@planetmaker>(though ofc I still get the crash when using cmd+h - but that's nothing the patches address or intend to)
12:27<@planetmaker>cmd+h = minimize to task bar
12:28<@planetmaker>rather: when trying to restore it then again
12:28<+michi_cc>Hmm, what else could I have broken... :) Compilation SDK change, font detection still good?
12:28<+michi_cc>planetmaker: Do you get a usable stack trace?
12:32<@planetmaker>michi_cc: yes... it's this one: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4689
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i'm sure the other nominees have done a great job as well
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: although i'm not sure how far their definition of "supporting role" spreads
12:35<Maedhros>michi_cc: if you're looking at OS X stuff, any chance you could change "OTTD" to "OpenTTD" in cocoa_v.mm:94 ? it doesn't look great in the menu imho ;)
12:36<+michi_cc>planetmaker: What is the restoreCachedImage used for? Does it work if restoreCachedImage and cacheImageInRect are simply removed?
12:40<@planetmaker>I never tried... let's look
12:43<Maedhros>michi_cc: actually, your diff in http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2135/ doesn't compile for me. output here: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2136/
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12:47<+michi_cc>Maedhros: Sorry, the past was too fast, should be http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2137/
12:49<Maedhros>aha, that works better :)
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13:14<@Terkhen>hello
13:16<mseidl>are power plans limited to how much coal they can tak ebased on population they supply?
13:19<frosch123>if they are, then it's due to the industry newgrf you are using
13:24<NGC3982>__ln__: http://truefinns.tumblr.com/
13:25<NGC3982>__ln__: What's your view on Sannfinnarna?
13:26<Pinkbeast>mseidl: ie, not by default
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13:32<__ln__>NGC3982: well they aren't the nazi party 2.0 even though the swedish-speaking party and de gröna are trying to build such a reputation for them in foreign media.
13:33<NGC3982>"De gröna", as in a Finnish party?
13:34<__ln__>yes
13:34<NGC3982>I see.
13:34<NGC3982>I haven't really put any thought into it, but the Swedish media does seem to enjoy the nazi references.
13:37<__ln__>surely they have some racist members, but that's still quite far away from being racist as a party.
13:37<NGC3982>I guess they can be compared to the Swedish Democratic party?
13:37<NGC3982>Questionable members, but no real danger.
13:38<__ln__>was swedish democrats the party organizing summer camps for white people?
13:39<NGC3982>Not really. Some of the people that appears in higher parts of the Democratic party, used to be in the Nationalistic Socialist Party.
13:40<NGC3982>The latter had summer camps for arians, and similar.
13:40<NGC3982>The NSP was a real nazi party.
13:41<NGC3982>Sorry, "National Socialistic Front" was the real name,
13:41<NGC3982>-,+.
13:44<__ln__>there are only two openly racist parties in finland, some insignificantly small "freedom party" and much more significant "svenska folkpartiet i finland".
13:45<NGC3982>Haven't even heard of that last one.
13:45<NGC3982>For good reason, i hope.
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25048 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-02-25 18:45:24 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_nynorsk - 84 changes by somaen, terjesc
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
13:45<@DorpsGek>romanian - 15 changes by mariush
13:45<@DorpsGek>gaelic - 86 changes by
13:48<__ln__>NGC3982: they wouldn't admit it themselves though, and the party is very in favor of immigration (no matter what kind).
13:49<NGC3982>I see.
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13:50<__ln__>but for instance, they want to maintain the segregation between finnish-speaking and swedish-speaking schools. it's not acceptable that both languages would be used in the same school building.
13:50<NGC3982>For what reason?
13:50<NGC3982>Heritage?
13:52<__ln__>in practice they're probably afraid that swedish speakers would get too much exposed to finnish.
13:52<NGC3982>:E
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13:59<mseidl>do i need to do anything regarding pre-signals? it says it will let more than one train onto the block but the train is always stopped even thoough there is more than enough room
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14:04<Maedhros>mseidl: you need path-based signals (PBS) not pre-signals for that
14:05<Pinkbeast>Unless "it" is permissive signals with two trains following each other with no signals between them. Nothing does that.
14:05<mseidl>Pinkbeast: wait, do i need signals all the way down?
14:07<Pinkbeast>It's a little vague what you mean by that, but it will never be the case that two trains run on the same bit of line without a signal between them.
14:08<mseidl>i have a loading loop with a 2 track station, both stations are connected by a single line. i want it so that if one train is going to the left, any trains on the right can follow it and go to the left, and any trains on the left are waiting to go towards the right
14:08<Pinkbeast>Definitely we're at "post an image of the layout" time
14:08<mseidl>ha
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14:09<mseidl>Pinkbeast: http://www.darkcoding.net/files/2009/05/two-loading-loops.jpg
14:09<mseidl>so around the lundinghattan ridge, that's how both of my stations look
14:09<Pinkbeast>ugh, png, please, but I'll take a look
14:10<mseidl>it's not my actual screen shot
14:10<mseidl>but i have no signals between either station
14:10<Pinkbeast>jpg compression tends to mangle screenshots very badly
14:10<Pinkbeast>Err so this is not the game you are actually playing?
14:11<mseidl>no
14:11<mseidl>i just copied the layouts and now i used regular path signals
14:12<mseidl>and now i crashed my trains!
14:12<Pinkbeast>If you crashed a train you fiddled with signals when a train was approaching them or ordered a train to pass a signal at danger
14:12<mseidl>right, Pinkbeast
14:12<mseidl>i did
14:12<mseidl>and i couldnt get rid of it fast enough :)
14:13<Pinkbeast>Are the blue lines on that diagram significant?
14:14<mseidl>no
14:14<mseidl>ignore any of the picture outside lundinghattan ridge
14:14<mseidl>including the blue lines
14:14<Pinkbeast>OK, then I have no idea what the question is, I'm afraid
14:14<andythenorth>hello
14:15<mseidl>i have no path signals on the connecting track between the 2 stations, the stations are almost identical (slightly different due to space constraints
14:15<mseidl>Pinkbeast: lets say i have a station on the right, and on the left
14:16<Pinkbeast>I really suggest you actually post a screenshot of the game you are playing, but OK.
14:16<mseidl>if a train is going from left to right, any other trains on the left should be able to follow the train going right
14:16<Pinkbeast>I guess you might be trying to have multiple trains follow each other on a single-line section used in both directions?
14:16<mseidl>Pinkbeast: right!
14:16<Pinkbeast>There is no good way to do that.
14:17<mseidl>should i pay big money for dual lines?
14:17<Pinkbeast>Passing places would be an intermediate solution
14:21<mseidl>ok
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14:22<mseidl>Pinkbeast: what's the best option?
14:22<Pinkbeast>If short of money, passing places.
14:22<Pinkbeast>Nearly all the track you lay for them will be useful for a dual line later.
14:22*andythenorth works on Squid. Which is better, complicated, or simple?
14:23<@planetmaker>KISS
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14:24<@planetmaker>one tentacle left. One tentacle right. Eat through the middle
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14:25<mseidl>Pinkbeast: i have over 1 million pounds
14:27<Pinkbeast>Dual-track it then
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15:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I have an Eddi shaped problem
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15:16<andythenorth>a ship has one or more associated spritesheets. e.g. ship_0.png, ship_1.png etc
15:16<andythenorth>these correspond to relatively minor graphical variations
15:16<frosch123>which of them has the beard?
15:16<andythenorth>yes
15:16<andythenorth>they are chosen at random, but random choice is modified according to build date
15:17<andythenorth>I am controlling dates by two-tuples in a list,
15:17<andythenorth>[(1870,1900),(1870,1930),(1900,1940)] etc
15:17-!-KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
15:18<andythenorth>but I have no idea how to programmatically construct switches for this :P
15:18<NGC3982>If i save a NewGRF setting, and then start a local game. Does the current openttd.cfg get saved somewhere special?
15:18<andythenorth>frosch123 wrt subtype refits, an ellipsis at the end of the cargos with subtypes might work
15:19<NGC3982>I'm trying out NewGRF's for the server on a Windows client, and it would be neat if i could simply copy the GRF list to the server config.
15:22<andythenorth>frosch123: benefit of ellipsis is that it doesn't add padding to lh side of list
15:23<andythenorth>and it wont' create a ragged edge (the non-subtype cargos won't have a + for disclosure, which will look messy)
15:24<frosch123>i thought about using the tree stuff from advanced settings
15:24<andythenorth>yes, but what would you show for a cargo with no subtype? o_O
15:25<frosch123>empty space
15:29<NGC3982>:(
15:30<frosch123>NGC3982: you can copy the stuff from openttd.cfg
15:30<frosch123>but you might need to fix pathes
15:30<frosch123>when moving between win and linux you might need to repalce / and \
15:30<NGC3982>All i need is the GRF list. I'm not moving the full file.
15:30<frosch123>i consider it easier to transfer savegames
15:30<NGC3982>Oh, i see.
15:30<NGC3982>Yes, ill do that.
15:30<NGC3982>Much better idea. :P
15:31<NGC3982>Oh, i also need to download all the NewGRF's to the server.
15:31<__ln__>NGC3982: did you see Dredd yet?
15:31<NGC3982>No.
15:31<NGC3982>Is there a way for me to download all the current NewGRF's in one go?
15:33<frosch123>no, sadly the server cannot ask bananas for the stuff from a savegame
15:33<frosch123>only the gui can do that
15:34<NGC3982>I was refering more to the fact that i can't find a "download everything" button on Bananas.openttd.org.
15:34<NGC3982>Since, that would greatly help my savegame moving-and-running process.
15:40<@planetmaker>if you run a server, have a look at the content rcon command
15:41<NGC3982>Yes, i'm administrating my servers with rcon.
15:41<andythenorth>http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=diWtAdma
15:41<andythenorth>probably makes no sense out of context
15:41<NGC3982>I have not yet downloaded anything, or moved/stored NewGRF's with it.
15:41*NGC3982 made a script that downloaded everything with the GUI.
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15:49<andythenorth>michi_cc: want me to try the OS X patch?
15:49<+michi_cc>andythenorth: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/openttd-custom-geeea764dM-OSX-2.zip see what you can break :)
15:49<andythenorth>what does it fix? :)
15:51<+michi_cc>Fullscreen on 10.7+ and maybe some mouse problems.
15:53<andythenorth>k I'm on 10.7.4, Fullscreen appears to work. The animated transition to / from full screen is best described as 'weird'
15:53<andythenorth>and the full screen option in game options shows no 'true' state
15:55<andythenorth>the mouse appears to track better, but the issues with that have been intermittent...so ENoEvidence :)
15:55<andythenorth>hmm
15:56<andythenorth>the standard OS X full screen option on window title bar works
15:56<andythenorth>it has video glitch
15:56<andythenorth>it's a different animation to choosing full screen from menu / or in game options
15:57<andythenorth>no crash on minimising to / from dock
15:57<andythenorth>video glitch on maximise window (green button)
15:58<andythenorth>full screen only works for native resolution afaict
15:59<andythenorth>any other resolution is ignored and reset to native (OpenTTD full screen)
16:00<andythenorth>for OS X full screen, the resolution is respected, but shown at 1:1 scaled to native resolution, i.e. smaller, no window chrome, over a background
16:01<NGC3982>Uhm.
16:01<NGC3982>If i start a server that advertises a certain server name and then load a new game, will the old one still remain advertised?
16:02<andythenorth>michi_cc: let me know if you need any screenshots or such
16:02<andythenorth>couldn't break it
16:02<andythenorth>except for above
16:03<+michi_cc>So, better than current or not?
16:06<NGC3982>Of course, i get a NewGRF mismatch.
16:07<andythenorth>michi_cc: better imo
16:07<andythenorth>but
16:08<andythenorth>I forsee new bug reports :(
16:08<NGC3982>I guess that is due to my client (where i saved the game) uses Windows, and the server (where i tried to load the save file) uses Linux.
16:08<andythenorth>wrt lack of control over resolution in full screen
16:08<+michi_cc>andythenorth: A bug report about a glitch is better than a bug report about a crash.
16:08<andythenorth>yes
16:08<andythenorth>I assume apple have removed the ability to change resolution
16:09<andythenorth>that would be very apple-like
16:11<frosch123>night
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16:43<@peter1138>NGC3982, no, that'll be due to the server not having the same set of NewGRFs
16:48<NGC3982>Yes, i noticed. I had not used a copy command recursivly.
16:48<NGC3982>It is solved, and the server is running.
16:55<LordAro>@seen Yexo
16:55<@DorpsGek>LordAro: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 12 weeks, 3 days, 8 hours, 38 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
17:00<andythenorth>ho ho
17:00<andythenorth>random graphics in squid
17:00<andythenorth>that was easy :)
17:02<andythenorth>same ship class, different graphics https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3851/random.png
17:02<andythenorth>might freak a few people out
17:02<andythenorth>but eh, they can always try another ship grf :)
17:03<@peter1138>you'll get bug reports
17:03<jonty-comp>so my friend is doing a TV coverage of an ice hockey game
17:03<jonty-comp>and he realised he'd forgotten his laptop with the software that does the score overlay
17:03<jonty-comp>but what did he have? his pi, with a RISC OS system image
17:03<@peter1138>oh dear
17:03<jonty-comp>so he wrote a BBC BASIC PROGRAM TO DISPLAY THE SCORES
17:03<jonty-comp>it's AMAZING
17:04<andythenorth>can he also write an open source clone of Chocks Away?
17:05<jonty-comp>the only game I remember from RISC OS is granny's garden
17:05<@peter1138>granny's garden was a bbc micro title :S
17:05<andythenorth>peter1138: I'll just add some text to buy menu then... Graphics: Random
17:05<andythenorth>also, where is Ice Cream Stand game, I have been looking for it for years
17:05<andythenorth>you ran an ice cream stand
17:05<andythenorth>on a beach
17:05<andythenorth>it was great
17:05<jonty-comp>peter1138: yeah well like I say there are BBC BASIC interpreters for RISC OS
17:06<jonty-comp>and i am too young for BBC Micros, but I am not too young for primary schools with no budget
17:06<@peter1138>well it's built in, obviously
17:06<andythenorth>10: color = rnd(12)
17:07<andythenorth>20 print "fuck"
17:07<andythenorth>30 goto 10
17:07<andythenorth>ah computer classes at school :)
17:07<jonty-comp>actually i think we had a port with improved graphics
17:07*andythenorth starts beebem
17:07<jonty-comp>we did have one bbc micro though
17:07<andythenorth>have to use mode 2 iirc
17:08<jonty-comp>the only disk that still worked was podd
17:08<andythenorth>hmm not mode 2
17:08<andythenorth>podd was to discover if you had special needs or not
17:15<andythenorth>probably time for bed eh? http://imgflip.com/i/okej
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19:34<wakou2>Hi anybody home?
19:34<wakou2>http://wstaw.org/m/2013/02/26/Kinningville_Transport_30th_May_2035.png
19:36<wakou2>Can someone point me to a simple guide to show me how to build a station with overflow. My trains wait at the last siganl on the entry rail. If I put signals on the platform entries, they jst 'stick a nose in' and bloc the whole line until THAT platform is free
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20:01<Eddi|zuHause>you need entry/exit signals for that, it won't work with path signals
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20:53<wakou2>I have tried a few different variants with old stlye siganal, and have given myself a headache!
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21:02<tracerpt>aloha :D
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 26 00:00:04 2013