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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-26

---Logopened Tue Feb 26 00:00:04 2013
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02:22<andythenorth>not only but also
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02:29<andythenorth>Pokka: bonjour
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02:43<@peter1138>quoi
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02:44<Supercheese>Soooo, bridges-over-stations, how's that going? Any patch for testing?
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02:50<oskari89>Bridges over stations, sounds nice :)
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03:06<Pokka>good day gentlemen
03:07<andythenorth>are all of those terms true? :)
03:08<andythenorth>or is it a colloquilsiasdiadasm
03:10<andythenorth>so http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=ubncjVtb
03:10<andythenorth>how do I do that?
03:10<andythenorth>I can probably hack at it and do it in 3 or 4 passes, but that smells
03:10<andythenorth>seems like Eddi|zuHause would be able to tell me one neat recursive function for it?
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03:23<Supercheese>"Don't worry about minute grf license details" he says
03:25<Supercheese>anyway, good night
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04:39<tracerpt>good morning
04:57<@planetmaker>moin
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05:07<tracerpt>yawn
05:07<tracerpt>think im going back to bed
05:08<tracerpt>:F
05:11<@peter1138>good idea
05:11<Eddi|zuHause>so why is andythenorth never here?
05:15<@peter1138>well he was an hour ago
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and yesterday. and both times he asked a question to me and was gone by the tiem i read it
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05:27<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the "shortest" result i can come up with for his question: "tmp = flatten(input); for i in range(0,len(tmp): output["%d..%d"%(tmp[i],tmp[i+1]-1)] = [j for j,r in enumerate(input) if tmp[i] in range(r*)]"
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>where "flatten" is something left to implement that transforms a nested list into a single list, with sorting and erasing duplicates
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>then you get a dict out of it with {"x..y": [0,1], "z..a" [1]} etc.
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>or with a slight modification you can get a list of strings
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>oh, there he is :)
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>i guess it needs to be range(*r)
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05:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: my code is....long http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=fT8gPMun
05:44<andythenorth>input is similar to [[0, 9999], [1900, 1990]]
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>you have a strange way of appending to a list :p
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06:02<andythenorth>I could probably have used a comprehension, but my brain is a mess
06:03<andythenorth>I don't like this code
06:03<andythenorth>otoh it probably works :P
06:04<andythenorth>hmm
06:05<andythenorth>dict.keys() might have arbitrary order?
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>add .sorted()
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>but you could also use an actual list instead of abusing a dict :p
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06:35<andythenorth>yes
06:35<andythenorth>or even a set
06:35<andythenorth>I write terrible code when I'm sick :P
06:35<andythenorth>and probably when I'm not sick :P
06:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: feel free to refactor :)
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09:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth try: reduce(set.union, input, set())
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>where input is your list of list
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>this gives you the list of all trigger dates
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>with removed duplicates
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>and then: for date in triggers: for counter. (start, end) in enumerate(input): if date in range(start, end): output[date].append(counter)
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>misses an output[date]=[]
09:16<andythenorth>bah, can't believe I forgot about enumerate :(
09:16<andythenorth>how silly
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>the inner loop could be simplified by a list comprehension
09:20<andythenorth>for counter. ?
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>so: for date in triggers: output[date] = [counter for counter, (start, end) in enumerate(input) if date in range(start, end)]
09:20<andythenorth>nice
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that should be a comma
09:21<andythenorth>excellent, that's perfect :)
09:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ever play python code golf? o_O
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen people play it
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>but sometimes "short" != "elegant" :)
09:23<andythenorth>no
09:23<andythenorth>there should be python code ballet :P
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>one time in school in a test, my teacher was impressed because my solution was so much shorter and cleaner than his default solution that he used mine instead :)
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>(that was in pascal, and the question was something like "implement a function that applies word wrap at width x")
09:27<andythenorth>did it have split() and join() ? :P
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>no
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>but next(' ') or something
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: pascal did not have dynamic arrays/lists, only arrays with fixed length
09:45<andythenorth>how rare
09:45<andythenorth>that must have been fun
09:46<andythenorth>so to append, did you copy the old array into a new array?
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>back then, if you wanted to "append" things, you used linked lists instead of arrays
09:55<blathijs>Just like now, except that you don't need to implement the linked list yourself nowadays ;-)
09:55<V453000>snow train http://auto.idnes.cz/foto.aspx?server=auto.idnes.cz&r=autokat&c=A130226_001008_auto_testy_fdv&foto=FDV497a0c_fotogalerie_hg_13.jpg
09:57<andythenorth>hagglunds
09:57<andythenorth>V453000 you should do an RV set :P
09:57<andythenorth>V453000: nodwells http://foremost.ca/products/vehicles
09:57<andythenorth>nodwells caused FIRS
09:57<andythenorth>I needed a cargo for them to transport
09:57<andythenorth>so I invented ensp
09:58<andythenorth>then I had to invent the rest of FIRS
09:58<andythenorth>irony: I never added the nodwells to HEQS :P
09:58<V453000>:D
09:58<V453000>rofl
09:58<V453000>http://www.pilsner-urquell.com/in caused NUTS
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>pfft :p
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>should have called it PIVO :p
09:59<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3866/nodwells.png
10:00<V453000>:D
10:00<V453000>lol andy :)
10:00<V453000>you can code them as trains?
10:00<V453000>hint hint
10:01<andythenorth>:P
10:01<andythenorth>code everything as trains
10:01<andythenorth>I should stop talking about it, start doing it
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>code them as hovercrafts that go on snow instead of water :p
10:01<andythenorth>then we could drop the other transport types
10:01<andythenorth>V453000: you know your ships can go on sea?
10:02<andythenorth>you just need to use the canals trick
10:02<V453000>if you put water/canal objects around the rails, yes
10:03<V453000>but diagonals are going to be a bit eww
10:05<andythenorth>diagonals will smell
10:05<andythenorth>we need diagonal canals
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10:06<V453000>I guess 1 tile cant have a diagonal object and a diagonal rail on the other half
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>for the canal-tracks, you only need to put two diagonal tracks on the tile
10:06<V453000>But what you can have is 2 diagonal water-rails on 1 tile
10:06<V453000>yeah but they include buoys for the "rail"
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10:06<V453000>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/rails_of_mayhem.png
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose using fences won't work either
10:08<V453000>looks like no fence is created when next co canal
10:08<V453000>to
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't the buoys have different colour on the left and right side?
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>fences check who owns the neighbouring tile
10:09<V453000>right
10:09<V453000>different colours, dont know :)
10:09<V453000>felt like r/w and g/y makes the junctions somewhat orientable
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10:13<V453000>but well, the purpose isnt to make these things buildable on water anyway
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue what the purpose is anyway :p
10:14<V453000>good question :D
10:14<V453000>just wtf value :P also I am kind of known for hating ships, sooo ... :)
10:15<V453000>this makes "ships" viable
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: so you buy "bays" in the depot, and it constructs and appropriately sized ship out of the bay sprites? :)
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>then use CETS turning magic to keep the sprites together :)
10:17<V453000>sort of
10:17<V453000>it is just a double headed train with wagons
10:17<V453000>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/mayhem.png
10:17<V453000>4 wagons in this case
10:18<V453000>sprites very wip :)
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>might want to start with shorter wagons :)
10:19<V453000>hm
10:19<V453000>not sure about that, maybe
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10:59<@peter1138>crazy
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you are.
10:59<@peter1138>wut
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>as is everybody else who joins here :p
11:00<andythenorth>me no crazy
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>denying you're crazy supports the fact that you are crazy
11:02<V453000>I aint crazy, I iz NUTS
11:02<V453000>difference!
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11:08<andythenorth>catch 22
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11:52<andythenorth> if date != 9999: # shonky magic special casing for end dates
11:52<andythenorth>
11:52<andythenorth>ho ho
11:52<andythenorth>that's how andythenorth codes :)
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>why have an end date anyway, just use the default clause for infinite?
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11:55<tracerpt>aloha :D
12:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure there's a better way, I just can't see it :)
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: anyway, the maximum year is 5000000
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12:07<andythenorth>:)
12:07<andythenorth>so anyone playing with vehicles never expire will get default graphics after 9999
12:08<andythenorth>herp
12:08<andythenorth>there must be a better way than this
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>so put in 5000001
12:08<andythenorth>well it just smells all wrong
12:08<jonty-comp>overflow the data type
12:08<andythenorth>I should figure out how to do it
12:08<V453000>andythenorth: note that I often test graphics at 19200 :D
12:09<V453000>... normally I start game at 1920
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12:11<andythenorth>hmm
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12:11<andythenorth>reverse slice last item of list
12:11<andythenorth>should do it
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12:19<andythenorth>eliminated 1 of 2 silly max year checks
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12:21<andythenorth>and 2nd 9999 never shows up in the compiled grf, it's just a config file thing
12:21<andythenorth>that's nicer
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12:49<andythenorth>hmm
12:50<andythenorth>I have no way to support different kinds of smoke
12:50<andythenorth>varying by date
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like setting the smoke effect by cb36?
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you want cb10?
12:53<andythenorth>I mean that I have engineered my config file system with no thought of smoke :)
12:53<andythenorth>ship graphics can vary by date / random
12:53<andythenorth>including steam / diesel variants
12:53<andythenorth>smoke is lame anyway currently :P
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12:54<NGC3982>:e
12:54<andythenorth>ach, I'll just pack more values in to my nested lists, and unpack them :P
12:55<andythenorth>all will be well
12:55<NGC3982>Uh
12:55<NGC3982>What
12:55<NGC3982>What just happend
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>just attach a smoke effect to the graphics?
12:55<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/CJTNcwi.jpg
12:55<NGC3982>What is that?
12:55<NGC3982>:E
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: different base graphics set?
12:56<NGC3982>Y..Yes?
12:56-!-RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:56<NGC3982>I have no idea. I have never seen that before.
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: so? just change the setting
12:56<NGC3982>When was it changed, and by who? Me?
12:56<NGC3982>:D
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, by you :p
12:57<NGC3982>By NewGRF or something?
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>most likely by downloading it
12:57<NGC3982>It looks amazing.
12:58<NGC3982>Oh, now i know. I downloaded * from Bananas yesterday.
12:58<NGC3982>I guess baseset's turn on by default
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>it picks a random one if you didn't specify a specific one yet
12:58<NGC3982>I see.
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>by "random" i mean the "return 4;" kind of random :)
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12:59<NGC3982>As understood
13:00<NGC3982>The "nothing can ever be random" discussion is filled with poop.
13:00<@Alberth>efenink
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>it's better than the "nothing can ever be infinite" discussion at any day :p
13:02<@Alberth>not even the disccusion itself? :p
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>i never really understood it, but apparently there are people that say "no (physical) object can be infinite, so you cannot talk about infinity in maths either"
13:05<@peter1138>heh
13:06<@Alberth>ah, just like the idea of constructive mathematics, where you can only show things to exist by giving an constructive algorithm how to create instances
13:06<NGC3982>The big problem is trying to use things like that in a normal discussion
13:06<NGC3982>If i - on IRC, talking about trains - use the word "random", if of course mean random as in "It's really, really hard to know", and nothing else.
13:06<NGC3982>And simply caring about something else is semantics, wrong or not.
13:07<NGC3982>And i hate that so bad.
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yes, similar to the "i reject the axiom of choice" debate, which is mostly religious anyway
13:07<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: ..And pretentious.
13:07<@Alberth>NGC3982: it does depend on what you see as normal :) I have often discussions that use abstract mathematical concepts :)
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>the difference is that without the axiom of choice, there's still plenty of maths you can do
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>but if you reject infinity, ...
13:09<@Alberth>you can only do finite things, obviously :D
13:09*NGC3982 fills his stomach with infinities of sharon fruit.
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you can express infinity in a finite number of axioms :)
13:10<@Alberth>:)
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>like "a subset of the natural numbers is called infinite, if there is no upper bound". then "all even numbers" is an infinite set. i said that with a finite number of words.
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13:12<@Alberth>I was already convinced :)
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13:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes, almost everybody is convinced, except a handful of zealots who then poison any discussion about cantor's set theory :p
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13:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I could encode the smoke effect in the graphics filename :P
13:23<andythenorth>or I could encode it in the graphics themselves, using colour :o
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>sure :)
13:23<andythenorth>that's actually wholly plausible
13:23<andythenorth>hmm, I had a thought for Alberth and now I've lost it :(
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>make the first pixel in one of the magic pink colours :p
13:24<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: So what are those people answering if you tell them that some infinities are more infinite than others? ;)
13:24*Alberth helps looking
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: yes, that is cantor's set theory :p
13:25<andythenorth>Alberth: I did think that bottle could be used as the basis of a newgrf maker, where players edit via their browser, but that wasn't what I wanted to ask you / tell you :P
13:25*andythenorth is not feeling so good today, brain addled
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: but basically it boils down to: "why are you still discussing this? there is no infinity. period."
13:26<andythenorth>Alberth: it wasn't this either, but... "Feature: remove all instances of a string from all lang files" ?
13:27<@Alberth>upload a new base language file without the string?
13:27<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: I'm an engineer, not an mathematicing. I have no clue at all how all those axioms are called, we just use them and are done :)
13:27<andythenorth>good idea, might be worth documenting :)
13:28<@Alberth>but yeah, I have not really considered what type of changes you might want to do on the strings
13:28<andythenorth>Alberth: I did improve the string edit layout on Sunday night, and add error class handling
13:28<andythenorth>I also solved, sufficiently, the passing template message
13:28<@Alberth>\o/
13:29<andythenorth>it smells of a hack, but I think it's a valid hack
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: well cantor's set theory starts with "is there a set of all sets?" and then "is the set of all sets element of itself?" resulting in "there can't be a set of all sets, so there must be a nested hierarchy of sets"
13:29<andythenorth>also there are error classes available for success / warning / info / failure
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>and from that on you get a hierarchy of infinities, by starting with the natural numbers as the base infinity, and the power-sets as the hierarchy
13:30<andythenorth>herp, it's annoying to forget a thought :|
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>and to decide whether there are more kinds of infinity than in this hierarchy, you need the axiom of choice
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13:33<@Alberth>oh, if it's any good, it'll come back. Otherwise, it was not good enough anyway :)
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13:34<andythenorth>yeah that
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>that's the worst answer to a forgotten thought ever :p
13:34<andythenorth>yes but no
13:34<andythenorth>it's true
13:34<andythenorth>but it doesn't stop the annoyance
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's like "i had a proof of fermat's last theorem, but i forgot it" - "then it wasn't any good" :p
13:34<andythenorth>Alberth: I was wondering how close WT was to done
13:36<@Alberth>I have 3 points to do. 1) fix doing a translation (coded but not tested) 2) cleanup old changes (currently they are kept infinitely, if you believe such a thing exists) 3) some form of user admin
13:36<@Alberth>where the 3rd one is a bit of a problem
13:37<@Alberth>then you need some documentation for authors and translators
13:37<@Alberth>then it is time to look around what else is missing
13:38<@Alberth>probably stuff is missing from a practical use point of view
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13:38<@Alberth>quak
13:38<frosch123>moin :)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25049 /trunk/src/lang (lithuanian.txt unfinished/thai.txt) (2013-02-26 18:45:13 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 13 changes by Stabilitronas
13:45<@DorpsGek>thai - 12 changes by angelix
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13:56<@Terkhen>hello
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14:06<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm thinking maybe we let it loose on other people?
14:06<andythenorth>either they run it themselves...or we ask about devzone hosting
14:07<andythenorth>assuming anyone is interested :)
14:10<@Alberth>yes, after 1 + 2, imho
14:12<andythenorth>also the project overview screen sucks right now, layout wise :)
14:12<andythenorth>I should fix that
14:14<andythenorth>also the language view - might benefit from an explicit 'start' fixing button for each status group
14:15<@planetmaker>well, of course the devzone offers hosting :-)
14:15<@planetmaker>or rather: also using :D
14:16<andythenorth>planetmaker: want to try setting up WT there? o_O
14:16<andythenorth>it appears to have little or no deps
14:16<andythenorth>but I'd run it in a vm, it might be insecure :)
14:17<andythenorth>Alberth: the idea I lost earlier - the ability to mark some strings in base lang as 'do not translate'
14:18<andythenorth>there may be other better ways to do that
14:18<andythenorth>it's not a common case, but occasionally comes up
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14:18<@Alberth>quickly, make a feature request :)
14:19<@Alberth>hmm, I had a discussion with y3xo about this, iirc he was not so happy adding such a feature to the file format, but I need to look that up
14:19-!-mseidl [~aaa@p5DCE6D24.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:19<andythenorth>not sure it's valid yet
14:20<@Alberth>there is a route to /fix/<proj_name>/<lname> to select a random string to fix
14:20<andythenorth>I'm not convinced by translating this for example STR_GRF_URL http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs
14:21<@Alberth>it does have fix priorities internally, but these are constant currently
14:22<@Alberth>isn't that a custom_tag thingie?
14:22<@Alberth>or do you use planetmakers type of custom_tags, entirely generated ?
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: iirc the conclusion was to put that in custom_tags.txt
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but potentially a website could have a language parameter or something :)
14:25<andythenorth>I don't mind moving strings
14:25<andythenorth>I hadn't understood the purpose of custom tags
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the makefile autogenerates custom_tags.txt to include the version/revision number
14:33<andythenorth>so what do we think the right thing to do is?
14:33<andythenorth>I could just leave these strings in place, and let translators do whatever
14:33<andythenorth>it would be a nice hack btw
14:34<andythenorth>I don't review translations, so just put the url to goatse or porn or something
14:34<andythenorth>what larks
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14:35<@peter1138>LARKS!
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>no, you mean LCARS!
14:36<@peter1138>well... no
14:39<ZxBiohazardZx>LARCS?
14:40<oskari89>Light Almighty Rail Car Set?
14:40<oskari89>That would be nice, generic cars on rails
14:41<@Belugas>Larks Tongues In Aspic
14:41<Supercheese>No one got the Star Trek reference? :<
14:42<ZxBiohazardZx>didnt want to mention
14:43<@peter1138>that's not really a reference
14:43<andythenorth>Supercheese: too busy not talking about licensing to think about your Star Trek obsession
14:44<@peter1138>it's like saying "no, you mean DARTH VADER" and calling that a starwars reference...
14:44<Supercheese>well, it is, isn't it?
14:44<Supercheese>tad more subtle I suppose
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: you expect people to shout out "YES I GOT THE REFERENCE"?
14:47<Supercheese>http://shirt.woot.com/offers/i-understood-that-reference
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14:49<Supercheese>When it doubt, put it on a shirt and sell it
14:49<Supercheese>in doubt*
14:51<andythenorth>I GOT THE REFERENCE
14:51<andythenorth>not
14:51<andythenorth>:)
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>i really don't think there are a lot of people here who never heard of LCARS before
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14:57<andythenorth>Alberth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3869/wt_overview.png <- actions at the bottom: download and remove could be links in the table?
14:57<andythenorth>per language?
14:59<@Alberth>good idea
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15:10<andythenorth>wtf, I can actually use a valid definition list
15:10<andythenorth>never done that before, in 15 years
15:11<@Alberth>valid definition of what?
15:12<@Alberth>btw shall we disable the reloader?
15:12<andythenorth>module reloader yes
15:12<andythenorth>definition is of string statuses
15:12<andythenorth>I can use <dl><dt><dd> for the first time ever
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15:13<andythenorth>Alberth: pull?
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15:15<@Alberth>ah, 'download' is like the download button at a language page of course
15:15<andythenorth>I guessed
15:15<andythenorth>we should store those definition strings as content somewhere
15:15<andythenorth>and make them available
15:16<andythenorth>anywhere in the app
15:17<@Alberth>why? they don't need to be translated, or are you talking about other definitions than custom_tags now?
15:17<andythenorth>other definitions
15:17<andythenorth>"Unknown: means the state of the translation was not decidable"
15:17<andythenorth>etc
15:17<andythenorth>that is reusable copy within the web translator
15:18<@Alberth>oh :)
15:18<andythenorth>could be used as help text in any page
15:18<andythenorth>I'll probably just stuff it in a dict somewhere
15:18<andythenorth>hmm
15:18<andythenorth>there is a bad pattern, called:
15:18<@Alberth>make a help page?
15:18<andythenorth>"andy puts everything in utils.py because he doesn't know where it should go"
15:19<@Alberth>looks good as temporary storage :)
15:20<@Alberth>datetime stuff fits better near Stamp, but there are some other pieces to add there as well
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15:22<@planetmaker>so... you need a VM for that stuff?
15:23<andythenorth>I reckon it's safer
15:23<andythenorth>I wouldn't run it on the bare OS
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15:23<andythenorth>it offers file upload to the filesystem, and could be full of vulnerabilities :)
15:23<@planetmaker>well. nothing on the devzone except the HV runs on "the bare OS" ;-)
15:24<@planetmaker>but yes... neither the DevZone VM might be best choice. So new one
15:24<@planetmaker>they're cheap :D
15:24<@Alberth>planetmaker: it needs some form of user authentication first, imho
15:25<@planetmaker>Alberth, yes... likely sensible :-)
15:25<@planetmaker>so you don't need it now... but soon
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15:31<andythenorth>Alberth: can you pull, then tell me where to find the correct identifiers for statuses (keys for dict rendered in project overview)?
15:33<@Alberth>webtranslate.data.STATE_MAP
15:33<andythenorth>thanks
15:34<@Alberth>pull is going to be tricky atm :)
15:34<andythenorth>ho, some of them have dashes
15:34<andythenorth>up-to-date
15:34<andythenorth>it freaks me out that this is never a problem :)
15:34<andythenorth>I got habituated to underscores everywhere in variable names etc
15:35<andythenorth>or
15:35<andythenorth>hmm
15:35<andythenorth>for a key, am I better using UP_TO_DATE or up-to-date?
15:35<CornishPasty>andythenorth: Use up_TO-datE
15:35<andythenorth>lovely
15:36<CornishPasty>Make sure it's case-sensitive too
15:36<andythenorth>mixed bulgarian-latvian-genoan notation
15:36<CornishPasty>Oh wait
15:36<CornishPasty>doesn't it need to be like
15:36<CornishPasty>boolUp_to-DATE
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>and then have different cases mean different variables :p
15:36<andythenorth>ideal
15:36<CornishPasty>Eddi|zuHause: Yup
15:36<andythenorth>or have some mean objs
15:36<andythenorth>others mean vars
15:36<andythenorth>others are methods
15:36<CornishPasty>booThatCouldBeAnIntUp-TO_DatE
15:37<CornishPasty>boolUp_TO-_D-Ate = 6
15:37<@peter1138>true/false/yes/no/file_not_found
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15:38<CornishPasty>peter1138: What about the edge case? file_was_found?
15:38<CornishPasty>Which actually returns when the filesystem is corrupted
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15:39<@Alberth>andythenorth: those are strings, not variables
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15:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'm always amazed at the totally constructive error message windows gives when there's a ':' in the filename :p
15:40<andythenorth>ok, so I was reading the code that returns state to string_edit for exmple
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15:40<andythenorth>seems like what I'm doing should be reused elsewhere
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>you can neither open the file nor rename it then :p
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15:41<Eddi|zuHause>but it fails to explain why
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15:41<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: you must truly love such a system :p
15:42<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm going to do what I think is right, and hope you can help fix later ;)
15:42<@peter1138>file_might_be_there_but_good_luck_getting_to_it
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>and because this error appears only every odd year, you search for a few minutes where the problem actually is, before you remember
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15:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25050 trunk/Makefile.grf.in (2013-02-26 20:48:50 UTC)
15:48<@DorpsGek>-Fix: use the CC_BUILD compiler for preprocessing the extra GRF's source instead of a hardcoded gcc
15:48<@DorpsGek>-Fix: do not let gcc include files from the "standard C" include directories; newer gcc/libc seem to otherwise automatically include some header files at the top of the preprocessed nfo files which causes NFOrenum/GRFcodec to make invalid assumptions about the NFO version
15:49<Rubidium>... or in other words, effectively an one line fix
15:50<Kjetil>the commit message is longer than the diff ? :P
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>that's more common than you think :p
15:51<frosch123>yay, we are approaching a symmetric revision number
15:51<Rubidium>really? I'd reckon we already passed it 25 revisions ago
15:51<Kjetil>I guess I should't speak to loudly. Commited changes to code comments earlier today
15:52<Kjetil>2 commits to go
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i really hoped i wouldn't need to save/load anything :/
15:53<frosch123>25252 will be fun :)
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>but yes, i didn't consider base grfs
15:54<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: breaking savegames by disabling grfs is already fun, breaking savegames by changing the order of grfs even more
15:54<Rubidium>frosch123: IMHO 25025 is more symmetric than 25052 ;)
15:54<frosch123>i would expect grfs to use the random seed for quite troublesome stuff, so it should not change unexpectedly
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i don't understand the difference between patch vars and global vars
15:55<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GlobalVariables http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ReadingPatchVariables
15:55<Kjetil>In the year 2525 if man is still alive
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: if you have a 7-segment digital display, 25025 would be both even and odd symmetric :)
15:56<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: exactly what I was thinking about
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15:58<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but wouldn't that mean you first have to copy it to a parameter to use it in an action2?
15:58<frosch123>yes
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>how is that better then?
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15:58<frosch123>i have no idea what you want to do with that var. but other vars of that type are patchvars
15:58<frosch123>e.g. mapsize
15:59<frosch123>and i think in nml it makes no difference
16:00<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: btw. ais ans gs have the option to request random values in their parameters
16:01<frosch123>so, you can also make it an a14 feature, and store the values in the grfconfig
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16:01<frosch123>then a grf can take multiple random values just as it likes
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds interesting
16:01<frosch123>and i like the idea of unifying ais, gss and grfs
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>i guess that means ditch this, and go back to the drawing board
16:02<frosch123>http://noai.openttd.org/api/trunk/classAIInfo.html#390926c8e631a628510f0bcb0fa5ad29
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>so a new setting type "random", which will not be displayed in the gui, but fill the associated parameter bits with random values?
16:04-!-Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action14#Setting_type_.28.22INFO.22_-.3E_.22PARA.22_-.3E_.3Csetting-number.3E_-.3E_.22TYPE.22.29 <-- i mean here
16:11<andythenorth>Alberth: can the base language have errors?
16:11<andythenorth>or are all strings 'correct'
16:11<andythenorth>?
16:12<andythenorth>I assume always correct
16:12<@Alberth>normally they are correct
16:12<andythenorth>I can't think how they are 'uncorrect'
16:12<andythenorth>what would you compare against?
16:13<@Alberth>you can have problems in the form of adding illegal strings, like "{BLECK" but they should get blocked from being uploaded
16:13<andythenorth>ok
16:14<@Alberth>or stuff like "{P x y}"
16:14<@Alberth>ie no command to derive plural from
16:14<@Alberth>or doing that in a language without plurals :p
16:21<andythenorth>Alberth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3872/more_more_more.png
16:21<frosch123>he, suddenly looks professional :o
16:21<andythenorth>I suspect that using this to detect if a language has errors (or not) is very silly: if counts[1] == bcounts[1]:
16:21<andythenorth>would be nice to have a flag for errors / not
16:21<@Alberth>pretty :)
16:22<andythenorth>not my work
16:22<andythenorth>I just build on the shoulders of giants :)
16:22<frosch123>i have no idea about that stuff, so i am probably impressed by a few lines of css :p
16:22<@Alberth>every giant does :)
16:22<andythenorth>frosch123: http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/base-css.html
16:22<andythenorth>^ I just apply styles from there :P
16:22<frosch123>though i wonder what happened the the srif project
16:23<andythenorth>and maybe a bit of brain
16:23<andythenorth>this web translator needs to be finished :)
16:23<andythenorth>FIRS translations are becoming a PITA
16:25<andythenorth>hmm table row colouring for success / not :P
16:25<andythenorth>probly not needed
16:26<Rubidium>andythenorth: a nice 'progress' bar per language could give a clue about the language's state
16:26<andythenorth>that's intriguing
16:27<Rubidium>or rather, a 90 degree rotated stacked bar chart
16:28<frosch123>better make the table sortable :p
16:28<Rubidium>and filterable
16:28<frosch123>oh yeah, filter for > 50% or so to fake statistics :)
16:28<andythenorth>sortable and filterable can be done
16:28<andythenorth>fake statistics I delegae
16:29<andythenorth>delegate *
16:30<frosch123>anyway, don't express the completion state with 5 digits precision, or i'll flame you like i did tb back then :p
16:30<Rubidium>anyhow, isn't "fake statistics" a tautology?
16:31<frosch123>no, it's an emphasis
16:31<frosch123>"the statistic is faked" would be a tautology
16:31<Rubidium>like "real statistics" exist ;)
16:37<@Alberth>andythenorth: the order of the explanations is weird compared to the order of the columns ?
16:37<andythenorth>oh :P
16:37<andythenorth>now you want a pony?
16:38<andythenorth>can you make python dicts return in a predictable order? o_O
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>sorted(dict.values)
16:39<andythenorth>yes, that's predictable :)
16:39<andythenorth>I should ask better questions
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>well you can provide an ordering function, to change the order
16:41<@peter1138>8~9999999999999999999999999900000000000000000000000000000000000000000-=69o99999998i8888888888888887778888
16:41<@peter1138>oops
16:41<SpComb>how's that new keyboard going?
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>is that a password? :p
16:41<@peter1138>well
16:41<@peter1138>8 was physically sticking down
16:41<@peter1138>just solved that
16:42<@peter1138>i striped it all and cleaned it up
16:42<@peter1138>it's working now
16:42<SpComb>my 0 key is sticky :(
16:42<@peter1138>plus it's nice & clean
16:42<SpComb>need to yank it off and clean it out
16:42<@peter1138>i soaked the plastic parts for a couple of hours
16:42<@peter1138>all came out nice
16:42<frosch123>oh, at my university there was a keyboard in some computer pool.... when you pressed the 5 on the numpad, all nine keys went down :s
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>one day when i came into an office, the person said "my computer behaves woird when it starts up, it asks me something about harddisks and stuff"
16:43<@peter1138>nah, 8 is still a bit dodgy :S
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>turned out the F12 key was stuck :p
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>so it displayed the boot menu
16:43<andythenorth>Alberth: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3875/pony.png
16:44<frosch123>what changed?
16:44<@Alberth>thanks
16:44<andythenorth>I really like this templating language btw
16:45<andythenorth>it would be good for templating nml
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>#
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>REWRITE IT
16:47<@Alberth>sshhh!
16:48<andythenorth>"Do not render untrusted templates! They may contain and execute harmful python code."
16:48<andythenorth>:)
16:48<andythenorth>not good for a web translator :)
16:48<andythenorth>nvm
16:49<frosch123>night
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16:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: nah, it can't be worse than SQL injection :p
16:52<andythenorth>probly about the same :)
16:52<andythenorth>but I think we'd have to do something stupid
16:52<andythenorth>like eval(input_from_untrusted_user)
16:53<andythenorth>anyway, it looks nice for nml templating http://bottlepy.org/docs/dev/stpl.html
16:53<andythenorth>more powerful than python's Template module
16:53<andythenorth>but doesn't leave xml crap everywhere like chameleon
16:55<andythenorth>and it has a simple %include syntax
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>and you find a new templating language every other week, so what?
16:56<andythenorth>so nothing in my case
16:57<andythenorth>I wouldn't recommend chameleon to most people though
16:57<andythenorth>not for templating nml anyway :P
16:57<andythenorth>I used it because I know it
16:57<@Alberth>andythenorth: get_status_definition_strings() looks wrong, dicts have random order, giving you no chance to match the order of columns. Also, it looks SOOOO python2-ish, we have http://docs.python.org/3/library/collections.html?highlight=collections.namedtuple#collections.namedtuple now :)
16:58<andythenorth>oh we do do we? :)
16:58<andythenorth>I had to add an order-control list, which I hate as a pattern
16:58<andythenorth>could have done one of those weird mult-dict constructs
16:58<andythenorth>but they're odd
16:58<@Alberth>I used it in newgrf/language_file
16:58<@Alberth>why not use a list?
16:59<@Alberth>or are they used elsewhere too?
16:59<andythenorth>I want to use them elsewhere
16:59<andythenorth>you use STATE_MAP to provide mappings to strings?
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16:59<andythenorth>I think that should be replaced or unified with what I've done
16:59<@Alberth>yes
16:59<andythenorth>not urgent
17:00<@Alberth>sounds like a good idea :)
17:00<andythenorth>then I can use the Title attribute for display
17:00<andythenorth>and I can set a tooltip which shows the description
17:00<andythenorth>everywhere they are used
17:00<andythenorth>and I can call .lower() on them if they are in a sentence :P
17:00<@Alberth>I changed string editing, it needs adding a message
17:00<andythenorth>is it committed?
17:00<@Alberth>yep
17:01<@Alberth>and you have a 'needs_fixing' flag in the project page :)
17:01<andythenorth>neat
17:01<andythenorth>so what message is needed?
17:03<@Alberth>at line 385 of pages/string_edit.py, you are thrown back onto the same string page as you still have errors in that string
17:04<@Alberth>line 304 is the other call of that function, which is when you start editing a string for the first time
17:04<@Alberth>you also had a comment on the language page, didn't you?
17:05<andythenorth>hmm
17:05<andythenorth>I don't recall :)
17:05<andythenorth>it was a long day :)
17:06<@Alberth>k
17:06<andythenorth>hmm
17:06<@Alberth>I think the actual current text should be added there
17:07<andythenorth>where has my nasty hack with request.query['message'] = foo gone?
17:07<andythenorth>did you find a better way?
17:07<@Alberth>not that I know
17:08<andythenorth>ho :)
17:08<@Alberth>where did you put that?
17:08<andythenorth>I forget
17:08<andythenorth>not helpful :)
17:13<andythenorth>maybe I imagined it
17:14<@Alberth>I hope so :)
17:15<andythenorth>oops
17:15<andythenorth>forgot reload is off :)
17:16<andythenorth>Alberth: so to add a message when returning a template
17:16<andythenorth> request.query['message'] = 'blah'
17:16<andythenorth>before the return
17:16<andythenorth>I'll test it for string edit
17:16<@Alberth>sounds good
17:17<@Alberth>Added 4 bugs for eints that need being done
17:18<@Alberth>but not tonight :)
17:20<andythenorth>one more commit from me
17:20<andythenorth>then bed
17:20<@peter1138>isn't it way past?
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17:22<andythenorth>22:22, so probably
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>just... one... more... commit
17:22<andythenorth>no more nice numbers today, so bedtime
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>what about 23:45?
17:22<andythenorth>oh
17:22<andythenorth>yes
17:23<andythenorth>but I'm not staying up for it :P
17:23<andythenorth>Alberth: l385-6 show a quick hack for error
17:23<andythenorth>I'm not sure it's a good method still
17:23<andythenorth>I would rather pass it to a method somewhere, so we can replace easily in future if wrong
17:23<andythenorth>or pass an error object around when calling a template
17:24<andythenorth>error / message /s
17:24<@Alberth>it does look a bit fishy indeed
17:25<andythenorth>especially if you read the bottle source, where request.query is ReadOnly :P
17:25<andythenorth>assuming I understand it correctly
17:25<andythenorth>create a message class, pass instances of it
17:25<andythenorth>bit heavyweight, could use a dict, but...
17:25<andythenorth>...seems more robust
17:25<andythenorth>problem for not-today ;)
17:26<@Alberth>Mark it with # XXX Needs a better solution ?
17:26<andythenorth>k
17:27<andythenorth>done
17:27<andythenorth>bed
17:27<andythenorth>might be here tomorrow, otherwise thursday
17:30<@Alberth>good night :)
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18:40<tracerpt>aloha
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23:12<tracerpt>aloha :D
23:13<Supercheese>Hey, been quiet
23:13<Supercheese>nothing was posted between yer alohas :P
23:13<tracerpt>LOL
23:13<tracerpt>was sort of expecting that
23:13<tracerpt>:)
23:14<tracerpt>started a new game
23:14<tracerpt>but by some reason cant see any new bridges
23:15<tracerpt>guess i'll settle for the new trains ^^
23:16<tracerpt>trains and poker, best way to get sleep deprived ;)
23:17<Supercheese>no new bridges? did you load a bridge grf?
23:17<tracerpt>ye
23:17<Supercheese>what year is it in-game?
23:17<tracerpt>1957
23:17<Supercheese>Early years will have few bridges
23:17<Supercheese>Hmm, should be plenty by then though
23:17<tracerpt>maybe i have too much grfs loaded
23:18<tracerpt>or some incompatibilitie
23:18<tracerpt>or some incompatibility
23:18<Supercheese>Recent versions of OTTD will prevent you from adding more than the limit
23:18<Supercheese>so probably not that, but could be a number of other things
23:18<tracerpt>ill take a screen of what i have loaded
23:20<tracerpt>nevermind
23:20<tracerpt>im so stupid
23:20<tracerpt>-.-
23:20<tracerpt>its not loaded :(
23:21<tracerpt>the bridge renewal thing
23:22<Supercheese>Ah, well load it ... unless you've already started making progress in the game
23:23<tracerpt>not much
23:23<tracerpt>can i load it midgame?
23:23<Supercheese>Have to start a new game, I had to do that the other day
23:23<tracerpt>ah
23:23<Supercheese>Well, I upgraded patchpack version, that's a bit more savegame-destructive than just grfs
23:24<tracerpt>got 20 trains in 2 lines
23:24<tracerpt>2.5M
23:24<tracerpt>so not much, but i really liked the layout of the map
23:25<tracerpt>i'll just continue
23:25<tracerpt>will be by 2150 by next week anyway xD
23:26<Supercheese>Oh, and then Pikka updated Av8, I had to upgrade that too
23:26<tracerpt>I never use jets
23:26<Supercheese>Airships
23:26<Supercheese>Rigid airships are where it's at
23:26<Supercheese>Jets are so cramped and uncomfortable
23:26<tracerpt>zepelins?
23:27<Supercheese>Zeppelins indeed, for 1920s-1930s anyway
23:27<tracerpt>i never start my games that early
23:27<Supercheese>Modern Zeppelin is cramped and uncomfortable too, unfortunately
23:27<Supercheese>and non-rigid
23:27<Supercheese>some people, like myself, like to start in the 19th century
23:27<Supercheese>I've even started in 1820
23:27<tracerpt>:o
23:28<Supercheese>Trevithick and Stephenson engines, and the like
23:28<Supercheese>plus horses. Loooots of horses
23:28<Supercheese>and ships, which have the highest capacity
23:28<tracerpt>i got about 1/3 of a horse downstairs in the freezer
23:28<tracerpt>:X
23:28<Supercheese>O_o
23:28<tracerpt>lasagnas burgers etc :D
23:29<Supercheese>eat it, and you'll be running on horsepower, eh
23:29<tracerpt>yeah
23:31<tracerpt>im also not a big fan of steam engines
23:31<tracerpt>in the game that is
23:32<Supercheese>Steam >> all else
23:32<Supercheese>Diesel is boring
23:32<Supercheese>electric boringer
23:32<Supercheese>No complex pipes, potentially dangerous boiler pressures, smoke everywhere
23:32<Supercheese>zzzzz
23:33<Supercheese>Forget efficiency, cost, speed, whatever
23:33<Supercheese>Coolness > any other consideration ;)
23:33<tracerpt>i dont like them in the game :P
23:33<tracerpt>i really like the real thing
23:33<Supercheese>Bah, there are 115 mph steam engines in the game
23:33<Supercheese>Fast enough for anything
23:34<Supercheese>well, in UKRS anyway
23:34<tracerpt>got that one
23:34<tracerpt>never tried it
23:34<Supercheese>Admittedly you will still want to upgrade to electric engines as the game progresses
23:34<tracerpt>more power
23:34<tracerpt>more speed
23:34<Supercheese>140 mph etc.
23:35<tracerpt>i like diesels
23:35<Supercheese>My games rarely even make it to the diesel era
23:35<Supercheese>I start so early I end up starting another new game before 1940 or so :P
23:35<tracerpt>ahah
23:35<Supercheese>I should play a modern game sometime
23:35<tracerpt>got a game at 2188
23:35<Supercheese>Last time I did that was, like, OTTD 1.0 :S
23:36<Supercheese>or future, even
23:36<Supercheese>that Mars set looks interesting
23:36<tracerpt>but now i found out about all this stuff i can add
23:36<tracerpt>industry grfs rock
23:36<tracerpt>:)
23:37<tracerpt>the industry sets
23:37<tracerpt>i meant
23:37<Supercheese>decidedly
23:37<tracerpt>u want to take a look at the game where i tested this new stuff?
23:37<Supercheese>after ECS and FIRS the default industries are appallingly boring
23:37<tracerpt>didnt try ECS
23:38<Supercheese>after playing*
23:38<tracerpt>playing firs
23:43<Bad_Brett>what is the best thing about FIRS, in your opinion?
23:43<tracerpt>keeps me busy
23:44<tracerpt>the whole production chain
23:44<tracerpt>and suply
23:44<Supercheese>Best thing is more industries and more cargoes
23:44<Supercheese>more variety
23:45<Supercheese>also new station rating mechancs, no more random-industry-closures
23:45<Supercheese>mechanics*
23:46<Bad_Brett>yeah that can be frustrating
23:46<Bad_Brett>do you think that the industries should shut down if the transportation is really bad for a long time?
23:48<Supercheese>Nope, I hate industries closing
23:48<Supercheese>Only reason an industry should close is if I magic-bulldoze it :P
23:49<tracerpt>sry
23:49<tracerpt>got in a really tense poker hand
23:49<Supercheese>I'm no good at poker, I never get good hands, I just get feet :P
23:50<tracerpt>u got to be patient
23:52<Bad_Brett>hmm... it's going to be hard to find a balance then
23:53<Supercheese>are you coding industries?
23:54<Bad_Brett>not right now, but i've coded some different economic climates earlier
23:54<Bad_Brett>a dirty solution using switch blocks
23:54<Supercheese>It should be fairly easy to have a grf parameter for "disable industry closure" like FIRS has
23:55<Bad_Brett>yeah, but the thing is that some "industries" must close
23:55<Bad_Brett>which you obviously hate (and probably a lot of other people as well)
23:56<Bad_Brett>like the oil wells in the standard game that tend to disappear after 1950
23:56<Bad_Brett>and are replaced with oil rigs
23:57<Bad_Brett>it's frustrating, but at the same time it adds some flavour to the game
23:59<Bad_Brett>hmm... i might release to two different versions
23:59<Bad_Brett>one with history based economics and one that is more sandbox-like
23:59<Supercheese>Or use a parameter
---Logclosed Wed Feb 27 00:00:01 2013