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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-02-28

---Logopened Thu Feb 28 00:00:07 2013
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00:00<tracerpt>morning
00:00<tracerpt>anyone around?
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01:31<Supercheese>Hmm, can you use switches/if/other ways to select between replace blocks in NML? E.g. to make base sprites year-dependent?
01:32<Supercheese>Seems like NARoads does that
01:32<Supercheese>in NFO of course
01:33<Rubidium>yes-ish... but... it depends on the time-of-load, or for network games the time-of-start
01:33<Supercheese>I recall problems about the replacements not dynamically updating as the year progresses, but requiring a save/reload
01:34<Supercheese>that seems like a minor problem, though
01:36<Rubidium>anyhow, it's not much more different than changing blocks of sprites for different climates, but instead of the climate check you do a year check
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01:39<Supercheese>So just wrap in an if-statement like http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-landscape/repository/entry/src/temperate.pnml
01:39<Supercheese>Checking current_year
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01:40<Rubidium>yes
01:40<Supercheese>All righty, easy enough
01:42<Supercheese>How about bridges?
01:42<Supercheese>Oh wait no NML bridges
01:42<Supercheese>nevermind
01:43<Supercheese>Hmm, maybe m4nfo does bridges
01:43<tracerpt>:O
01:43<tracerpt>there is life in here
01:43<Supercheese>Doesn't look like it
01:43<tracerpt>:)
01:44<Supercheese>Oh, maybe it does
01:44<Supercheese>Just no documentation? @_@
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01:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25054 trunk/config.lib (2013-02-28 06:51:45 UTC)
01:51<@DorpsGek>-Document: the *FLAGS_BUILD in configure
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01:55<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r25055 /branches/1.3 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2013-02-28 06:55:22 UTC)
01:55<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: [1.3] -Backport from trunk:
01:55<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Refactor Script Debug GUI to only set widget states in OnInvalidateData [FS#5490] (r25052)
01:55<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Do not let gcc include files from the "standard C" include directories; newer gcc/libc seem to otherwise automatically include some header files at the top of the preprocessed nfo files which causes NFOrenum/GRFcodec to make invalid assumptions about the NFO version (r25050)
01:55<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Minimise gaps feature caused removal to only happen at the signal build interval instead of the implicit interval of 1 [FS#5479] (r25038)
01:55<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
02:02<@peter1138>herpaderpa
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02:19<@peter1138>Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 59th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3179
02:19<@peter1138>i'm so glad that we still have this very useful tool
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02:24<Rubidium>ah... now I know why the pope stops on the 28th of february. Pope Hilarius stopped on the 28th of february as well
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02:32<andythenorth>hola
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04:06<Pokka>nola
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04:32<Supercheese>zzz 1:30 AM
04:33<andythenorth>Sleepycheese
04:33<Supercheese>Indeed
04:34<heffer>10:30 am
04:34<heffer>in the office
04:34<andythenorth>it's midnight somewhere
04:35<andythenorth>peter1138: is it done yet, your secret?
04:35<andythenorth>none of my stuff is done, ever :P
04:35<Supercheese>CHIPS?
04:35<Supercheese>I distinctly recall that being 'done'
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04:36<andythenorth>oh yes
04:36<andythenorth>maybe it is
04:36<andythenorth>oh
04:36<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/issues
04:36<andythenorth>not :(
04:37<Supercheese>Well, perhaps before Jan 15 it was ;)
04:37<andythenorth>also no grain cargo support
04:37<andythenorth>maybe a silo of some kind
04:37<Supercheese>TBH, I don't like open piles of cargo around, I mostly use buildings/tanks/bins/etc.
04:38<Supercheese>Stacks of boxes are fine though, for goods
04:38<Supercheese>but the CHIPS tiles blend so well
04:39<andythenorth>I want an indicator of too much cargo waiting
04:39<andythenorth>grain silo, with overflow on the ground
04:39<Supercheese>Well, reviewing this game, actually the piles for stuff is used a lot
04:39<Supercheese>coal, iron ore, wood
04:39<V453000>Somebody was making a CHIPNUTS enhancement, but Somebody hasnt been seen in a while :d
04:40<Supercheese>There was one cargo I didn't like sitting around in piles, hmm
04:40<Supercheese>D'oh, invalid chunk size
04:40<Supercheese>Patchpacks :S
04:40<andythenorth>V453000: just fork it
04:40<andythenorth>it's a simple set ;)
04:41<Supercheese>Now I have to remember which version I used :V
04:41<andythenorth>I like your graphics, but I don't know if they fit what I want for NUTS, and we could debate it, but then we're wasting time talking, not making :D
04:41<andythenorth>NUTS / CHIPS /s :P
04:42<andythenorth>basically CHIPS is the only thing I've made that I'm happy with and I don't want to unpick it ;)
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04:45<Supercheese>Ah, CHIPS iron ore piles
04:45<Supercheese>they unfortunately don't match ISR (and other set) iron ore piles
04:46<Supercheese>Scratch other sets, I guess only ISR
04:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth, adding NUTS cargos surely could be done directly in CHIPS, no?
04:46<@planetmaker>i.e. having the graphics supplied?
04:46<Supercheese>coal is fine
04:47<Supercheese>lumber sprites are same as ISR
04:48<andythenorth>planetmaker: they could, but then choices have to be made
04:49<Supercheese>seems like it was just iron ore I didn't like
04:49<Supercheese>of course just my opinion :P
04:49<andythenorth>making choices is work ;)
04:49<Supercheese>anyway, good night
04:49<andythenorth>also bye
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04:49*andythenorth -> work
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05:51<dihedral>hello
06:05<@peter1138>`hi
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08:43<@peter1138>or not
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09:03<wakou2> :)
09:03<wakou2>A brief vist!
09:04<@peter1138>surely no
09:04<@peter1138>hmm, i see, a fair amount of comings & goings
09:09<wakou2>:)
09:10<wakou2>Do you know Peter, why electric trains are not available in arctic climate?
09:19<@peter1138>that's how TTD was made
09:20<@planetmaker>wakou2, "just because". If you use NewGRFs which supply electrical trains in arctic, then they will be available
09:20<@planetmaker>by default electrical trains are *only* available in temperate
09:25<wakou2>planetmaker: TY, I was just wondering..
09:35<@peter1138>brrr, cold
09:38<dihedral>and we do not want the electricity to freeze, do we now
09:39<goodger>one of the supply cables for the railway here snapped due to extreme cold a couple of months ago
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10:11<wakou2>:0
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10:31<gynter>NewGRF's are useful only for modifying graphical content?
10:34<@planetmaker>GRF = game ressource file
10:34<@planetmaker>;-)
10:35<@planetmaker>townnames are NewGRFs
10:35<@planetmaker>costs are newgrfs
10:35<gynter>Not according to the wiki, that's why I asked.
10:35<@planetmaker>production behaviour of industries are newgrfs
10:35<gynter>"NewGRF stands for New Graphics Resource File"
10:35-!-Slower [~Slower@gw.buk.cvut.cz] has joined #openttd
10:35<@planetmaker>:-) That's why I prefer to call it "Game Resource File"
10:36<@planetmaker>Graphics Resource File is too misleading
10:36<@planetmaker>please feel free to change that
10:36<gynter>My main question would be, that if I would like to make a guid system, would it be possible to do it via NewGRF instead of modifying the client?
10:37<@planetmaker>a what system?
10:37<gynter>Globally unique identifier
10:37<@planetmaker>what's that in this context?
10:37<@planetmaker>what do you want to identify?
10:37<gynter>To identify the client for the current server
10:38<@planetmaker>that's not what newgrfs are for or should do. They must be identical for all clients as well as the server
10:39<@planetmaker>within current frameworks, you likely would want to go via the admin port and associate the client IP with the client's nickname and hash that to a unique ID
10:39<gynter>The NewGRF would be identical, but the guid would be generated different for the first time the client connects to the server.
10:39<gynter>And saved to some datafile afterwards for reading.
10:40<@planetmaker>newgrfs are for changing map components and gameplay. Not client/server behaviour. There's no communication path there
10:40<gynter>Thanks, that's what I wanted to know :)
10:41<gynter>So basically for this kind of guid hash support I would have to server and also the client. Well that sucks :P
10:41<@planetmaker>Well. Technically I think you could do without modifying anything, just writing an admin script
10:42<@planetmaker>which reads the IPs of clients and the associated nicknames
10:42<gynter>But now if the client changes IP or nick, this would be useless :)
10:42<@planetmaker>yep
10:42<gynter>I would like to have guid instead of somekind login system
10:42<@planetmaker>what would you like to bind a unique identifier to?
10:43<@planetmaker>a token in the config file? Also easily changed
10:43<@planetmaker>Though that would likely do and only is circumvented if explicitly wanted to. But then, that's easy with every system
10:44<@planetmaker>just change source, reply what is expected, done
10:44<gynter>Ofc is easily changed.
10:45<@planetmaker>But a unique ID is, if you want to keep it easy, probably indeed best implemented as clientID, a user-side variable which can be transported upon authentication ot the server
10:46<@planetmaker>and that variable is config-only. And the configfile is written after first start of openttd, so... remains there
10:46<Rubidium>GUIDs aren't going to work well in OpenTTD
10:46<Rubidium>the configuration files are shared/copied around, so storing something GUID-ish in there will not work
10:47<gynter>Not in the config ofc. A separate datasource.
10:47<@planetmaker>would be rather GID ;-) without "u". But it might be "good enough"
10:47<@planetmaker>gynter, you need to make sure it's independent of openttd version then
10:47<Rubidium>gynter: so how would you save it?
10:48<@planetmaker>and then.... why not config file?
10:49<@planetmaker>it's the same like you don't want to share your cfg with your nickname's password(s) ;-)
10:49<gynter>because it would increase the possibility to mistakenly share your guid
10:49<@planetmaker>making the guid more secure than your default company password sounds like a ... strange idea
10:50<@peter1138>why do you need to identify the client?
10:50<gynter>For example, statistics.
10:50<gynter>Or admin permissions.
10:51<@peter1138>hmm, you could extend the server password system to use per-user passwords
10:52<@peter1138>hmm, i guess client name isn't available there yet
10:52<@planetmaker>whereever you want to store it: that should not be your primary worry. Config file is good enough for a starter. The implementation of the actual protocol is the itneresting thing
10:53<Rubidium>planetmaker: the client name is available
10:53<Rubidium>s/planetmaker/peter1138/
10:53<gynter>Yes, the key transport would have to be secure too.
10:53<@peter1138>ok
10:53<@planetmaker>gynter, also there, making that more secure than server or company PW - pointless
10:54<gynter>You mean the guid would be pointless or paswords would be?
10:54<@planetmaker>or rcon password for that matter when sending rcon commands
10:55<@planetmaker>I mean adding extra security measures beyond what is done for current rcon access
10:55<@planetmaker>which likely is rather "none"
10:56<@planetmaker>also, encryption or so, that's also not the main problem. Can always be added :-)
10:56<@planetmaker>Unless you want to re-write the protocol
10:56<Rubidium>I think some passwords are md5ed and salted
10:57<@planetmaker>good :-)
10:57<@peter1138>planetmaker, i disagree with your "that isn't secure, why bother making anything else secure" theory
10:57<gynter>But You think that this kind of feature, which would make life easier for identifying clients for servers (eg Goal server login stuff etc, statistics) would be pointless or not :) ?
10:58<gynter>So instead of logging-in the player would be identified uniquely on every server without logging in.
10:58<@planetmaker>peter1138, that's not what I said ;-)
10:58<Rubidium>having said that, the game password isn't hashed/salted
10:59<gynter>Also it would give the possibility to add access levels using the guid to the companies.
10:59<gynter>or even to the servers
11:00<Rubidium>gynter: the question remains, how do you want to save the GUID?
11:01<@planetmaker>I can only speak for myself: I don't mind such feature. But it needs questions answerd
11:01<@planetmaker>Rubidium, could be done via admin script
11:01<@peter1138>aes512 encrypted using a user supplied passphrase ;)
11:01<@planetmaker>so servers can setup their own solution to that, no need to put that in openttd core
11:02<Rubidium>planetmaker: the GUID can't be saved by the game script
11:02<@planetmaker>admin. not game
11:03<Rubidium>that runs server side, the GUID needs to be saved client side
11:03<gynter>Yes, it needs to be client side
11:03<@planetmaker>ah, you mean client-side. I'd still save that in the config file
11:04<@planetmaker>That's really good enough for what goal servers need or what one needs for access to pr0 servers
11:04<Rubidium>planetmaker: actually, there is a set of servers that release their own binaries to implement something like this
11:05<@planetmaker>yes...
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11:05<gynter>I don't really like the own-binary solution, thats why I hoped it would be possible to do it using the NewGRF :)
11:05<Rubidium>it isn't
11:06<Rubidium>NewGRFs don't have disk access, and do not even know about network
11:06<gynter>But are OpenTTD devs interested of such feature?
11:08<@planetmaker>each of us probably has a different view ;-)
11:08<Rubidium>I wouldn't be against it, but the major problem is and remains: how to save the GUID; the config file isn't good, as then it is not a GUID anymore
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11:08<Rubidium>i.e. not globally unique
11:09<@peter1138>what was network_id for?
11:10<Rubidium>the same, but it was flawed and not useable. Which is exactly why I am so against saving it in the config file
11:10<gynter>Rubidium: for example, the Tremulous has GUID saved in a file "qkey" which is located under the game base (eg ~/.tremulous/
11:10<Rubidium>gynter: there are several torrents on the internet with whole folders, including the whole config directory.
11:10<gynter>well, that sucks :D
11:10<Rubidium>this is even worse with the "stand alone" torrents, which have everything in a single folder
11:11<gynter>The idea of guid is not to protect people form their own stupidity :P
11:11<Rubidium>this is not stupdity, it's not knowing what repercussions it might have
11:12<@planetmaker>shooting down the idea by "you can't get an absolutely unique ID" can always be done by scenarios of "people just share everything"
11:12<Rubidium>just like I reckon you do not read all EULAs you agree to
11:12<gynter>Github as also lots of ~/.ssh/id_rsa files :))
11:12<@planetmaker>if it's not absolutely unique it practically still doesn't matter
11:13<@planetmaker>but it might fall on our feet ;-)
11:13<gynter>Solution would be to save it in completely different location?
11:13<@peter1138>store it in the gnome key manager
11:13<gynter>Which would suck thou.
11:13<@peter1138>;)
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11:14<@planetmaker>windows registy ;-)
11:14<gynter>:D
11:14<Rubidium>gynter: which such for portable 'installs'
11:15<gynter>exactly
11:15<Rubidium>s/such/sucks/
11:15<@planetmaker>hm... I think I ... never installed an OpenTTD, at least not on OSX or linux
11:15<gynter>me neither :D
11:15<@planetmaker>I can't vouch for not installing it back in the 0.5.x time
11:15<@planetmaker>but definitely not since 0.6 time :D
11:15<Rubidium>I've installed it plenty of times
11:16<@planetmaker>:-)
11:16<gynter>I wonder how exactly does the Trem do the guid thingie
11:16<@planetmaker>(as in using an installer, ofc)
11:16<gynter>must dig the code
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11:17<Rubidium>planetmaker: yes, well before anyone else installed it actually ;)
11:17<@planetmaker>hehe :-) thought so
11:17<@planetmaker>gotta go. See you later all
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11:29<supermop>can track have custom foundations yet?
11:35<+michi_cc>Store GUID and MAC, if MAC changes, generate new GUID.
11:35<Rubidium>michi_cc: fails for portable install ;)
11:36-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC67AD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
11:36<Slower>Hello, I'm willing to participate in open ttd development and therefore I wanna ask if the feature/fix with the giving money function is still free to be done
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>probably
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11:40<Slower>what should I do to get the task assigned to me?
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>just start doing it
11:42<blathijs>Perhaps comment on the bugreport, if any, that you're giving it a go
11:44<Slower>in fly spray?
11:50<blathijs>yup
11:51<Slower>there's not created the issue yet
11:54<blathijs>The just start coding, I guess :-)
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11:57<Slower>I'll ask later if there'll be someone who can provide me more details, but thanks for advices anyway!
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12:35<@Terkhen>hello
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12:56<NGC3982>What is the best way to use a feeder system in ECS? With or without full load orders?
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12:58-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
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13:37<Eddi|zuHause>i've never really played with ECS, but maybe using timetables is better
13:40<NGC3982>It seems so
13:40*NGC3982 tries.
13:40<NGC3982>Feeding also worked.
13:40<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/AG0zF1k.jpg
13:42-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host49-232-dynamic.41-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
13:42<Wolf01>hello o/
13:43<gynter>Hello.
13:43<@Terkhen>hi
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25056 /trunk/src/lang (basque.txt indonesian.txt) (2013-02-28 18:45:12 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>basque - 10 changes by Thadah
13:45<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 2 changes by adjayanto
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13:50<George>frosch123: Are you here? I'd like to ask about FS#5086
13:51<George>Is there a FS thet transforms a task to
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13:52<George>same introduction/extroduction date
13:52<George>for EMU parts?
13:53<George>Including preview stage?
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15:27<frosch123>[19:51] <George> Is there a FS thet transforms a task to <- transform what?
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16:20<@Terkhen>good night
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16:29<frosch123>night
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16:53<tracerpt>aloha
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17:14<Wolf01>'night
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17:25<tracerpt>hey :)
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17:54<@planetmaker>Slower, the task wrt giving money to companies is still free. I'd recommend to just give it a go. Feel free to ask here or in our forums or also in a FS task, if you got further questions about that
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17:55<michal104>siema
17:55<michal104>:D
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18:00<tracerpt>who's willing to take a look at a station and tell me what a mess it is?
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18:17<tracerpt>bloody firefox :\
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19:14<kormer>I'm using the exact same newgrfs with same settings, same build, and same script as a server game, but the server's cities are generating 3x pax per population as normal, any idea on what else could cause the discrepancy?
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19:14<Supercheese>Different buildings generate different pax counts
19:15<Supercheese>You might have gotten unlucky and gotten low-pax buildings in the city
19:15<Supercheese>whereas the server city had many high-pax buildings
19:15<kormer>when a city is expanding organically as opposed to the scenario editor, does that affect which buildings are built?
19:15<kormer>IE, the organically grown city might be selecting only the higher pax buildings?
19:15<Supercheese>It's fairly random both ways
19:16<Supercheese>I don't think that biases things one way or another
19:16<Supercheese>Some TTRS buildings generate loads of passengers
19:16<Supercheese>compared to default buildings especially
19:17<kormer>yea, it's TTRS, I just can't replicate what's happening on the server that's driving me nuts
19:17<Supercheese>Well, buildings are built at random, there's no way around that
19:17<kormer>I'm noticing also that my scenario editor cities are about half the physical size as the server's cities for the same population
19:18<Supercheese>Yeah, each building contributes different population counts as well
19:18<Supercheese>high-rises more than a single house, etc.
19:19<Supercheese>Also towns with well-planned road grids can achieve higher populations
19:19<kormer>the ratio of pax to population shouldn't change though
19:19<Supercheese>Minimizing roads while maximizing houses
19:19<Supercheese>You'd have to look at the TTRS code to see if buildings have skewed pop/pax counts or not
19:20<Supercheese>they easily could, I've not checked
19:20<kormer>for all my cities, I'm seeing a constant 13 pax generated for every 100 pop, the server is showing 36 pax per 100 pop, but only once the city grows above 10k or so
19:20<Supercheese>Yeah, that smells like TTRS buildings
19:20<Supercheese>some generating enormous amounts of passengers compared to others
19:20<Supercheese>and imbalanced population counts as well, likely
19:21<kormer>ok, let me dive into that for a bit and see what I come up with
19:21<Supercheese>e.g. one building provides 10 population but 100 pax, while another provides 10 pop and only 20 pax
19:22<kormer>that wouldn't surprise me, I just figured pax generation was a global setting based on population
19:23<Supercheese>seems the code is all in .nfo, which I cannot read :S
19:24<kormer>I'll figure it out, thanks for pointing me in the right direction though.
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---Logclosed Fri Mar 01 00:00:08 2013