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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-03-01

---Logopened Fri Mar 01 00:00:08 2013
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00:52<Supercheese>I don't see anything in the OTTD Wiki Manual of Style preventing disambiguation pages
00:52<Supercheese>I'm going to presume that means I'm free to make one, unless someone objects
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01:23<Supercheese>Oh lord, I am failing these redirects so hard
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01:50<Supercheese>There's no wiki page for the main menu>!
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01:50<Supercheese>Oh lord, the wiki isn't maintained much, is it?
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03:12<Pokka>andythenorth, progress? :
03:12<andythenorth>ho it's a Pokka
03:12<andythenorth>are those coaches bilevel?
03:13<andythenorth>or is that offensively wrong?
03:13<Pokka>those coaches are boxcars
03:13<Pokka>but apart from that :)
03:13<andythenorth>they look hi-cubey :)
03:13<andythenorth>the consolidation is awesome
03:13<andythenorth>what's the lectric thingy? Looks nice
03:13<Pokka>because they're full-height diagonals
03:13<Pokka>the hi-cubey ones will be even higher :)
03:14<Pokka>baby GG1
03:14<andythenorth>the diagonal is the atlantic?
03:15<Pokka>the driving wheels on the steam locos look a bit indistinct in screenshots, but that's because they're animated, they're clearer in motion.
03:15<andythenorth>the firebox slope on the atlantic is awesome
03:15<andythenorth>shall we pop over to deviantart and have some frothing over pixels?
03:16<Pokka>I don't know, shall we?
03:16<andythenorth>let's not
03:16<Pokka>this acetylene needs to get to edinburgh
03:16<andythenorth>how intriguing
03:17<andythenorth>I may have stolen your license btw :P
03:17<andythenorth>how's that for meta-theft? :)
03:17<Pokka>what, "copyright me, contact me if you have any questions"?
03:17<Pokka>terrible :)
03:18<andythenorth>so is it done yet?
03:18<andythenorth>I have a game running
03:18<Pokka>maximum length of an articulated lorry in the UK is 16.5m
03:18<Pokka>that's rather shorter than most diesel locomotives and rail carriages
03:18<Supercheese>No triple-trailers in Britain, eh?
03:19<andythenorth>reality eh?
03:19<Pokka>I'm definitely doing "articulated" lorries as non-articulated
03:19<andythenorth>so did CS
03:19<Pokka>or SF at least
03:19<andythenorth>him too
03:19<andythenorth>my game is using UKRS2 btw
03:19<andythenorth>it doesn't suck
03:19<Pokka>a likely story
03:20<andythenorth>I have a deltic and a chopper
03:20<andythenorth>what more could be needed?
03:20<andythenorth>I'm ignoring the others
03:20<Pokka>:) choppers, hmm
03:21<andythenorth>I'm using 2 of them on every train
03:21<Pokka>I thought the other day that maybe I should have a type 2 instead of the 37
03:21<andythenorth>might as well be 37
03:21<Pokka>but I've already drawn the 37, so laziness prevails
03:21<andythenorth>one less click for every new train
03:21<andythenorth>and one less drag
03:21<andythenorth>think of the lives saved
03:22<Pokka>is your game on an internet
03:22<andythenorth>on a computer
03:22<Pokka>how rare
03:22<andythenorth>internet is beyond me
03:22<andythenorth>also Squid smells
03:22<andythenorth>it's all wrong
03:22<andythenorth>playtesting ftw
03:23<Pokka>well apparently it's going to take 1hr 20min to get to edinburgh, and this game has 10x time and distance compression, so brb in about 10 minutes.
03:25<andythenorth>stupid cargo multiplier crap
03:25<andythenorth>these HEQS trams are broken, capacity is 50% what it should be
03:29<Supercheese>which cargoes?
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03:30<Supercheese>Nevermind, must needs sleep
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03:32<Pokka>never rely on the muliplier
03:32<Pokka>always explicitly callback a capacity :)
03:34<andythenorth>workll workll
03:34<andythenorth>time to go
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03:49<__ln__>i think they're making fun of swedes, but not sure:
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04:24<tracerpt>morning engineers ^^ :D
04:34<@peter1138>what's a reasonable max size for alloca()
04:35<@peter1138>hmm, few hundred bytes
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04:49<SpComb>peter1138: 8MB
04:50<tracerpt>any number lower than 1 million sucks :P
04:50<SpComb>default stack size limit is iirc 8M :)
04:51<@peter1138>but other stuff are likely on the stack
04:52<SpComb>it's like operators selling you "up to 100mbps"
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04:52<SpComb>alloc() can be used to allocate up the 8MB of memory on the stack
04:53<@peter1138>yeah but alloca will crash & burn if you allocate too much
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05:32<Pokka>return of the north!
05:32<andythenorth>return of the mac
05:33<andythenorth>return of the mack
05:35<andythenorth>it's a big world
05:36<Pokka>10 times bigger than ETS2
05:36<Pokka>well, 100 times bigger in a square-type-measuring-fashion.
05:39<@peter1138>no u
05:39<@peter1138>ets2 is tiny
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05:40<Pokka>so's OpenTTD
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05:41<@peter1138>so's ur mum
05:41<@peter1138>ur momma's so fat she's tiny
05:42<Pokka>only on wednesdays
05:43<Pokka>do I have to do jury duty?
05:43<Pokka>if I don't get the summons by monday, I'm off the hook.
05:44<Pokka>otherwise it's two weeks from the 18th of march, wot larks
05:44<tracerpt>hmmm mummm :)
05:44<andythenorth>Pokka: you can draw in court, right? :P
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>there used to be a saying that a champagne company can only be successful if a german founded it
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06:27<tracerpt>champagne sucks
06:27<tracerpt>jack daniels ftw
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06:41<Pokka>fair enough
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06:48<tracerpt>cya later
06:48<tracerpt>time to sleep
06:48<tracerpt>before i smash my head on the keyboard
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08:58<@peter1138>i can't get a word in edgeways
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09:14<cerzi>hey guys, quick question: is there any real point to deliverying to multiple end-of-the-line industries? like if i have a huge supply of diamonds, is there any real benefit to sending them to multiple banks rather than piling them all into one?
09:15<@peter1138>other that spreading your traffic out, probably not
09:16<cerzi>ok, thought so. ta
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09:21<@planetmaker>there might be industry sets where acceptance of the cargo might stop, if you deliver too much of it. But default industries accept infinite amounts
09:22<cerzi>mm i might have to look into that
09:22<cerzi>feels a bit cheap delivering half the continents supply of x to a single place hehe
09:23<lugo>this is weird, i took the diff posted here: and compiled it for my linux box, than i took the binaries from here:
09:23<lugo>when i now start a server from the linux box, windows clients can't connect because of "wrong version"
09:24<lugo>both versions have "OpenTTD HardPack 0.7.144" in the title when opening them
09:24<lugo>but when trying to connect the win-client tells me the server version would be "HardPack 0.7.1"
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09:30<lugo>so question is: is the version displayed in the title of a game the same as is displayed to other clients when running as a server?
09:31<lugo>Well it's clearly not in my case, but shouldn't it be that way?
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09:35<@planetmaker>yesish. But your version string is too long and then it fails to look the same
09:35<@planetmaker>in the network protocol
09:36<@planetmaker>that's why cargodist chooses the shortform of CD. Only that way it maintains network compatibility
09:36<@planetmaker>among itself
09:40<@planetmaker>lugo, you got 15 bytes, including the string terminator \0. But you use at least 17 bytes
09:41<lugo>well when starting a server with the binaries and then trying to connect from the linux machine it also tells me "HardPack 0.7.1"
09:42<lugo>and btw, the icon indicating connection is possible is "green"
09:42<@planetmaker>Yes... a longer string is not broadcast over network
09:43<lugo>mmmh, so my only option would be to compile it for windows and linux with a shorter version string?
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09:43<@planetmaker>not sure whether joining actually works... it uses strcmp for the first 15 bytes, but I didn't look whether anything special is done, fi strings are longer than 15 bytes
09:43<@planetmaker>that's the least troublesome solution, yes
09:46<@planetmaker>you could of course investigate whether longer version strings are possible. I'm not sure whether the length restriction is due to package size restrictions or not
09:46<lugo>super meh :p
09:47<@planetmaker>I just recall that there is *some* issue ;-) Maybe you find the reasons, if you dig through cargodist thread or logs of this channel
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09:54<@planetmaker>lugo, maybe fonsinchen recalls better as of the reasons that the network transmitted version string is not longer than 15 bytes :-)
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09:57<fonsinchen>I don't actually know the reasons.
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09:57<fonsinchen>I once asked if that could be changed and the answer was that it's complicated.
09:58<fonsinchen>Then I just shortened my version string.
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10:06*lugo is compiling everything needed to compile
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11:58<slower>Hello, is there any developer?
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12:16<slower>I'd like to participate on development of ttd, I've read the todo list, does anyone know which easy tasks are free to be done?
12:19<andythenorth>slower: this list?
12:20<slower>yes, this one
12:20<slower>but it looks like most of the easy tasks are done
12:20<@peter1138>yup, they're the easy ones
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12:21<slower>yes, but which are still not done and I can start working on it?
12:21<__ln__>somebody probably has a patch for every bug and feature request already, just not committed.
12:22<slower>so everything is done already? :)
12:24<__ln__>yes, it's a complete and perfect product once the remaining patches are accepted.
12:25<slower>ah, great then :)
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13:19<slower>is there anything else to be done with which I could help if everything seems to be programmed already?
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13:27<MNIM>slower: if you're still paying attention, OTTD is in constant development.
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13:30<slower>I'm but this IRC is making me confused a bit, yet. I have no idea who's joking and who's serious :)
13:33<frosch123>slower: the todo list is up-to-date
13:33<frosch123>everything that is being worked on is linked from there
13:33<frosch123>i.e. make sure to look at the fs and forum links
13:33<frosch123>review is slow though :s
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13:40<@Alberth>slower: oh, todos. Did you consider ?
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13:42<frosch123>i fear the vehicle gui will look weird when removing on of the buttons
13:43<@Alberth>yeah, I am not convinced that they should be moved, but a unified icon would be possible imho
13:44<frosch123>well, the vehicle gui icon is quite big, you cannot place it next to text buttons
13:44<frosch123>that would also look weird
13:44<frosch123>i like the idea to draw a new small icon and put it into the caption bar
13:44<frosch123>just that i worry about the vehicle gui :)
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25057 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-03-01 18:45:23 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 13 changes by Evropi
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 2 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_nynorsk - 35 changes by terjesc
13:45<@Alberth>just add a new icon then?
13:46<frosch123>like two buttons in the vehicle gui? or like only in the other guis?
13:46<frosch123>or the same icon at two scales?
13:46<frosch123>captionbar icon would likely need to black only
13:46<frosch123>vehicle gui icon looks quite different
13:47<slower>I've read the info and I it does look suitable for me
13:47<frosch123>maybe we should just make the other buttons in the vehicle gui higher :p
13:48<@Alberth>people complain about the small gui anyway :p
13:50<slower>Can I start working for example on that: ?
13:52<frosch123>if you can convince the devs that it is actually correct :p they are all european, so have no idea about medieval units
13:52<frosch123>except peter lives in a mediaval kingdom
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13:53<slower>oki, could you suggest me something other not that complicated which would be most helpful to development?
13:54<@Alberth>any area that you like in particular?
13:55<@Alberth>besides the todo list, I don't think we have things that are useful from the top of out hat
13:56<slower>there not any area I'd know about I wanna do...
13:56<Supercheese>Tractive effort in tons? :S
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13:56<Supercheese>ft-tons* rather
13:56<Supercheese>no, wait, just tons
13:57<Supercheese>Why don't we just stick with kN :P
13:57<@Alberth>they are random numbers anyway :p
13:57<frosch123>slower: see, that's what i meant :) the first non-european to comment no that task, says it should stay at kn :p
13:57<slower>well, do you know if the task with crash log is still waiting to be done?
13:58<Supercheese>I thought trainset authors looked them up, they're documented values no?
13:58<slower>oki, as Europan I trust him :)
13:58<@peter1138>ft-lbs smell
13:59<Supercheese>Wikipedia does use lb_f though
14:00<Supercheese>Tractive effort 37,397 lbf (166.35 kN)
14:00<Supercheese>I'm pretty used to kN in OTTD
14:01<Supercheese>lbf would be strange
14:03<Supercheese>Why don't we properly implement the American unit system, all lengths are measured in Football Fields
14:03<Bad_Brett>hello guys
14:04<Supercheese>with the occasional City Bus unit of length
14:05<Supercheese>volumes that are sufficiently large are measured in Olympic-Sized Swimming Pools
14:05<Prof_Frink>Nah, implement Reg units.
14:09<@Alberth>let's just remove all units; the only important thing is how big the numbers are relatively to each other anyway :)
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14:11<slower>oki, so this task is unimportant too... what about the task from todo list with crash log? I have not found on fs nor on forum that someone is working on it..
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14:14<frosch123>you mean the newsitem thingie?
14:15<frosch123>i doubt anyone worked on that
14:15<frosch123>it's more about the idea how to print the newsmesages without risking to crash while doing
14:15<frosch123>maybe, by just printing the textid and raw parameters or so :p
14:18<slower>printing play text should be OK, but I'd follow your advices. Or if you can advice me some other task to get started...
14:19<Supercheese>RoadTypes would be nice :P
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14:19<frosch123>i can just point at the todo list :)
14:20<Supercheese>So I can immediately abuse them for subways :U
14:20<frosch123>but whatevery you do. usually the hard task is to figure out what is the right way to do something
14:20<frosch123>once you know what nees doing, implementing is easy
14:21<Supercheese>If you want something easy-ish, you could try adding a new cheat to the cheat menu, say, something to disable to loading speed penalty when the train is longer than the station
14:21<Supercheese>only requires disabling one chunk of code in economy.cpp
14:21<Supercheese>disable the loading*
14:22<slower>cool, that looks good for me, does it have task on FS, or somewhere, so I can get it assigned?
14:22<frosch123>slower: oh, i can also advise you to do something which you are interested yourself, and would also use on your own :)
14:22<Supercheese>I don't think there's an FS entry for it, I just thought it up :P
14:23<Supercheese>Because I would use it :D
14:23<Supercheese>Or, well, I do use it, but I just hac- I mean, commented out the code block and compiled a modified version
14:24<Supercheese>I've not messed with the cheat menu code, though, I wonder where it is
14:24<Supercheese>cheat_gui.cpp, conveniently named
14:25<frosch123>i would expect it to be quite messy, with custom drawing and such :p
14:28<Bad_Brett>do you know any girls who enjoy TT? i have several female friends who love Rollercoaster Tycoon, but for some reason they don't seem to enjoy TT. even my gf, who loves my work, refuses to play TT :P
14:28<Supercheese>my sister doesn't like it much, unfortunately
14:28<Supercheese>I tried to show her how cool it was, but to little avail :S
14:29<Supercheese>She didn't grow up on Thomas the Tank Engine like I did, perhaps that's why :P
14:29<frosch123>Alberth: can you transform that into advertisement to join freerct development?
14:30<slower>well. I'm a bit confused, what's the workflow if I decide to do something? Is there anyone responsible for the code? or some group of people? So I'd know if I do something usefull or not...
14:30<Supercheese>1) Modify some code
14:30<Supercheese>2) Test that the code works and is bug-free
14:30<Supercheese>3) Post the .diff on Flyspray
14:30<frosch123>slower: nope, that's the general problem with ottd development
14:30<Supercheese>feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my impression
14:30<frosch123>most things get stuck in discussion of details
14:31<frosch123>so the best method is to do something which you like to use yourself
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14:32<slower>that's what I wanted to know, thx :)
14:32<@Alberth>frosch123: :D something like get them hooked on freerct, to demonstrate the fun that strategic games are? :)
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14:33<Supercheese>There's also stuff about coding style
14:33<frosch123>many girls play rct - become a freerct dev!
14:33<slower>I've noticed that, gonna read it soon
14:33<@Alberth>frosch123: I should hire you! :)
14:33<Supercheese>I just try and emulate the existing code style, should work eh
14:33<@Alberth>(for the advertisements)
14:33<frosch123>Alberth: except i never placed rct, and have no idea about it :p
14:34<frosch123>oh, advertisement!
14:34<Supercheese>You don't need to know anything about the thing to advertise it
14:34<Supercheese>just look at any marketing department
14:34<@Alberth>it's like openttd, except the trains do circles, and you only have pax
14:37<frosch123>hmm, i could add different types of animal cargo
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14:37<frosch123>like cows
14:42<Bad_Brett>RCT is a bit like Minecraft actually...
14:43<Bad_Brett>you spend most of the time designing stuff rather than playing the game
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14:43<frosch123>is there time progression in rct?
14:43<frosch123>or is any day the same?
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14:44<Bad_Brett>i don't remember... i think there's some progression
14:45<Bad_Brett>you can get new rides and stuff
14:45<frosch123>like faster coasters?
14:45<frosch123>or different loopings?
14:45<frosch123>or older customers? :p
14:45<Supercheese>Wooden --> Steel
14:45<Supercheese>Or is that far, far too many years' worth of time progression?
14:45<frosch123>oh, like maglev coasters?
14:45<Bad_Brett>something like that... there's a lot of stuff to build
14:46<frosch123>on tubular silicon tracks:p
14:46<Bad_Brett>the games are much shorter than in TT
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14:47<frosch123>make the map bigger
14:47<Bad_Brett>you have goal... either you mess up and have to restart, or you win
14:47<frosch123>ottd was never about winning
14:47<frosch123>yeah, that makes rct very different
14:48<Bad_Brett>it's a bit like city builder
14:48<Bad_Brett>achieve the goal within in 10 years
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14:49<Bad_Brett>anyway, another example... almost every girl I've met who is into computer games play the sims... yet, i've only met guys who actually play the sims without cheats
14:52<Supercheese>I don't like the Sims
14:52<frosch123>you prefer cheating in real life? :p
14:55<frosch123>anyway, my sister just played whatever i played
14:56<frosch123>although in civ 1 her strategy was mostly to build diplomats instead of combat units, and buy every city :p
14:56<frosch123>and i think she played broodwar only for the "go, go, go" of the marines :)
14:57<Bad_Brett>i remember the first time i played civ 1
14:57<@Alberth>frosch123: you pay for 'research' to get new types of coasters, stalls, and so on
14:57<Bad_Brett>my brother showed it to me
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14:57<Bad_Brett>i didn't know that i could change production
14:58<Bad_Brett>so i conquered the world with hundreds of militias
14:58<@Alberth>and there is time, as in 'seasons', year 1, year 2, ... and challenges like X visitors in 4 years
14:58<Bad_Brett>it was on chieftain of course
14:58<frosch123>oh, yeah. when i was around 9 or 10 or so, i found civ 1 with some friends on the computer of one of my friend's dad
14:59<frosch123>we mostly moved around with the starting militia
14:59<Supercheese>I think my first civ was Civ2, I can't recall ever playing Civ1
14:59<frosch123>and were surprised when some other guy had two units
14:59<frosch123>Bad_Brett: you won with a single city?
15:00<Bad_Brett>i rememeber getting a 153% score in Civ1 when i was was 7... my brother's friend (who was 14 at the time) was devastated that he couldn't match my score... good times
15:01<@peter1138>civ1 was the best
15:01<Bad_Brett>nah i don't think i finished that game with only militias... after an hour my brother came in and taught me how to build settlers and chariots
15:01<frosch123>it got boring though when i figured out how to change the unit stats with a hex editor
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15:02<frosch123>replacing the militia with icbm which could fly accross the whole map made it kind of pointless
15:02<frosch123>but i think i learned something from that :p
15:02<Bad_Brett>civ 4 is, by far, the best imo
15:03<Bad_Brett>and civ 2 is basically a polished version of civ1
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>i probably played civ2 the most
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>in col i played around a lot with the unit stats and production yields, which could easily be set by text editor
15:04<Bad_Brett>yeah, i played it to death when it was released... it was a fantastic game, but the series still had the ICS issue
15:04<Supercheese>Civ4 is certainly the most moddable
15:04<Supercheese>I've made my fair share of mods for it...
15:05<Bad_Brett>really? link?
15:05<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i never figured out how to increase the gameplay time in col
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that was probably hardcoded somewhere
15:05<Bad_Brett>Col was so underrated... there was a lot of micromanagement, but there were so many ways to play it
15:05<frosch123>so i cheated to start with 30 units to get stuff faster
15:05<Supercheese>some are unreleased, but for the rest:
15:06<Supercheese>Not sure this will work but this search link:
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>civ4col was such a disappointment...
15:06<frosch123>i think the micromanagement is what makes col unique
15:06<frosch123>but the pathfinder is bad that trading routes do not work
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>but there is a totally great mod now that makes the game actually fun
15:06<frosch123>before i got into ottd, i considered writing a col/openttd mixture
15:07<frosch123>basically col, but without combats, and with proper trading/transport
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, traderoutes need some serious macromanagement
15:07<Bad_Brett>i rage quit civcol when i invested in 4-5 universities
15:07<Supercheese>Civ5 was weird
15:07<Bad_Brett>just to discover that it was just a waste of time
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: what do you mean?
15:07<Bad_Brett>Civ5 sucks so badly... oh my
15:07<Supercheese>I haven't played it in a long time, though I doubt the expansion(s?) improved on it much
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>i like civ5
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>it plays much different from civ4
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15:08<Supercheese>1 unit per space is weird
15:08-!-xT2 [] has joined #openttd
15:08<Supercheese>hex grids are ok
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>it is not that weird
15:08<Supercheese>lack of mod-ability sucks hard
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>there's a 5 unit per tile mod somewhere
15:08<Supercheese>was that fixed?
15:08<Bad_Brett>Eddi: in CivCol, the time to number of turns to educate a colonist increased every time... so, if you educated 10 carpenters, it would take like 50 turns to educate a Statesman
15:08<Supercheese>I recall it being painfully limited when it first came out
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>but it doesn't work in cities, afair
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: ah yes, there are mods that fix this
15:09<Bad_Brett>it was a much better strategy to sell muskets to the indians and buy all the experts from europe
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: try "the authentic colonization mod" or so
15:09<Bad_Brett>which kind of ruined the feeling of becoming independent
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15:11<Bad_Brett>i tried some of those mods (perhaps they've gotten better), but i still thought that the original game was more fun somehow
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: <-- reaööy try thos
15:12<Bad_Brett>i'm downloading
15:12<Bad_Brett>have they fixed the issues with the indians?
15:13<frosch123>he, talk about political correctness :p
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>some, which issues?
15:13<Bad_Brett>in the original games, there were very good reasons to keep your neighbours happy
15:14<Bad_Brett>you could educate an unlimited number of farmers/fishersmans, which was extremely useful
15:14<Bad_Brett>in CivCol, they were just annoying obstacles
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>not sure
15:14<frosch123>i always hoped there would be a way to disguise as another european, and then attack the indians near their settlements
15:15<frosch123>indians were also the only way to get rid of small settlements which had "walls"
15:15<Bad_Brett>hahaha yeah that one sucked
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>if they like you enough, they dissolve their settlements
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>when you get too much influence
15:16<Bad_Brett>when you got the FF who automatically put a stockade on all colonies with the size of 3
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise they get more and more annoyed the more you expand
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15:16<frosch123>yeah, that's why i always get that FF last :p
15:17<Bad_Brett>oh my... i hated it when the other europeans built a colony one square from one of mine
15:17<Bad_Brett>and managed to build a stockade before i could conquer it
15:18<Bad_Brett>one thing that i loved about the original col was the randomness of resources...
15:18<Bad_Brett>it may sound like a bad thing
15:19<frosch123>it was not particulary random, was it?
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15:19<Bad_Brett>but it there was something really exciting about it
15:19<frosch123>it was mostly about climatic zones
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>what i always find weird in civ4col was that selling one good changes the prices of completely different goods
15:19<Bad_Brett>well, random may be the wrong word
15:19<Bad_Brett>"hidden" might be a better word to describe it
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: you mean like you carve down a forest and there appears a new special good?
15:20<frosch123>anyway, proper cargo transport is still what i miss most from col
15:20<Bad_Brett>you knew that even a dense forest could contain sources of wheat, prime cotton and so on if you improved the terrain
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15:20<Bad_Brett>yeah exactly
15:21<frosch123>i hate it that they added the custom house to circumvent the issue
15:21<frosch123>it always results in making every town at sea
15:21<frosch123>and just making every town independent and sell all crap to europe
15:21<frosch123>because wagons and ships just cannot transport the amount
15:21<frosch123>and all need manual navigation
15:22<Bad_Brett>i remember getting an early copy of Col... it still had the factory bug
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>you can have automatic traderoutes
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>in both col and civ4col
15:22<frosch123>in original col traderoutes do not work at all
15:22<Bad_Brett>which allowed you to produce 24 tools/rum/cloths/cigars/coats without any raw material :)
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>but setting them up is tedious
15:22<frosch123>they have only four stops
15:23<frosch123>and either the pathfinder breaks, or the load/unload gets out of sync
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15:24<frosch123>sometimes they loaded an entirely different cargo
15:24<frosch123>and then never unloaded it .p
15:24<Bad_Brett>the thing is, that gold is quite useless in the original Col... you use it to buy ships and cannons... which you use to get even more gold... so when the custom house becomes available, it isn't that useful
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>i liked how in civ4col the liberty bells increase your efficiency, i.e. you produce more tools from the same amount of iron
15:24<frosch123>that's also the case in original col
15:25<frosch123>you get bonus production for 50% and 100% in town
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>no, there it just made you produce more tools for more iron
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>you got +1 production on 50% and +2 production on 100%
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>but it also increased consumption
15:25<frosch123>ah, that way
15:26<Bad_Brett>yyeah... eddi is right
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>so the conversion rate is the same
15:26<frosch123>well, i think the most important part of the production bonus was always food
15:26<frosch123>which allowed you to employ more people
15:26<Bad_Brett>food was indeed the most important thing
15:26<Bad_Brett>the best strategy was to settle in the north/south, near the incas or the aztecs
15:27<Bad_Brett>send every colonist to the capitol and turn him into a farmer/fisherman
15:27<frosch123>indians have specific locations?
15:27<frosch123>i always thought they were random
15:27<Bad_Brett>store the 75 food you get on a ship until you get 200
15:28<Bad_Brett>and sell the silver you get
15:28<Bad_Brett>the incas are almost always to the west
15:28<Bad_Brett>but i was thinking of the food production
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>i think they tried to distribute them roughly along the north/south as they were historically
15:28<Bad_Brett>which is much greater in the north/south
15:30<Bad_Brett>anyway.. the incas and aztecs will give always give you 75-current_amount_of_food_in_colony... so if you store the food on ships, you'll get insane amounts of food
15:30<Bad_Brett>combine that with unlimited farmers
15:30<Bad_Brett>and silver to sell
15:31<Bad_Brett>and you might very well break the game
15:31<frosch123>how can you get insane amount of food, when the biggest ship can only hold 600 units?
15:32<Bad_Brett>because when you get 200 you unload it
15:32<frosch123>and there are at most 255 moving vehicles in the game :p
15:32<Bad_Brett>= new colonist
15:32<frosch123>200 food means new colonist?
15:32<frosch123>i always thought they appear at random
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15:32<frosch123>and got annoyed that it mostly happens in later years when you have enough uneducated guys anways
15:32<frosch123>while people are rare in the beginning
15:33<Bad_Brett>nope... it might be wise to build 1-2 early wagon trains just to store food
15:33<frosch123>hmm, i always breeded horses to sell them
15:33<frosch123>maybe i should breed humans instead
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15:33<Bad_Brett>i never sell horses, they are too important
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>they don't give a good price anyway
15:34<Bad_Brett>sell muskets instead
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>horse breeding works slightly different in civ4col
15:34<Bad_Brett>yeah i know... you have ranchers
15:35<frosch123>Bad_Brett: muskets are somewhat higher on the tech tree :p
15:35<frosch123>i just used horses to get rid of excess food
15:36<Bad_Brett>i'm sorry to say it, but that's a really stupid strategy :P
15:36<frosch123>but now i learned that there is actually use in food :p
15:36<Bad_Brett>well... it's basically the key to success :)
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>you learn something new after 20 years :p
15:38<frosch123>i wonder whether i will play col tomorrow all day, instead of coding ottd .p
15:39<frosch123>and i thought i would get to ottd again, since i finished katawa
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>what i hated about col was the habit of the AI surrounding your cities
15:39<frosch123>i always avoided combat
15:39<Bad_Brett>you could avoid it
15:40<frosch123>only played for production and money
15:40<Bad_Brett>they would still surround you
15:40<Bad_Brett>and occasionally do sneak attack :P
15:40<frosch123>so, i just played easiest difficulty, islands and lots of ships to sink anyone approaching
15:40<Bad_Brett>*couldn't avoid it
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>civ4col is evil if you manage to make your pirate strong enough so it matches a frigate in strength
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>through promotions
15:42<Bad_Brett>oh... cool
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15:43<Eddi|zuHause>don't play on too hard difficulty, the AI gets so much money bonus it just spams out ships :p
15:43<frosch123>in original col i think pirates were always stronger than frigates
15:44<Supercheese>USS Ranger
15:44<frosch123>just because they were so much faster
15:44<frosch123>they always escaped when being attacked
15:44<frosch123>and with drake they usally also won when attacking
15:44<Bad_Brett>i think that was completely at random...
15:44<frosch123>but i think if they lost, they usally sank :p
15:45<Bad_Brett>those mechanics were rather weird
15:45<Bad_Brett>it was impossible to lose all your ships
15:45<frosch123>but that did not matter since i dumped all money into pirate ships :p
15:45<Bad_Brett>and if you invested in like 10 frigates, you would begin losing to caravels
15:46<Bad_Brett>so the more ships you owned, the weaker they became
15:47<Bad_Brett>which also meant that it was possible to sink 4-5 Man-O-Wars with a single frigate
15:47<Bad_Brett>there was some kind of robin hood mechanics there
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15:51<Bad_Brett>off topic: something I hate about OpenTTD is how the probabilities work... if i set the same probability to two different industry layouts, they game _should_ fist decide how many industries that should be built and then find the appropriate locations
15:52<Bad_Brett>but, if you're using an advanced layout with slopes or something like that, there will be fewer locations to build that industry and therefore you have to set a higher probability to compensate for that
15:53<Bad_Brett>this makes it rather tricky to get a good balance
15:53<@Alberth>probabilities for industry layout?
15:53<@Alberth>afaik you only have probabilities per industry type
15:53<Bad_Brett>ok, houses is a better example then
15:55<@Alberth>the main problem is that there is no information why an industry cannot be build, for terraforming problems or otherwise. If the former, there is no information what the industry actually needs
15:55<@Alberth>so the game cannot do landscaping to make it fit
15:55<andythenorth>industry probability is a thorny issue
15:56<Bad_Brett>i see...
15:57<Bad_Brett>but the problem is, everytime i change something in the location_check callback, i notice how the number of generated industries are changed, sometimes quite drastically
15:58<@Alberth>there are other problems too
15:58<Bad_Brett>even if i know that there's a 100 places on the map where the industry could be build without modifying the terrain
15:59<@Alberth>newgrf industries have too much control over themselves
15:59<Bad_Brett>what do you mean?
15:59<@Alberth>they decide everything except opening
16:00<Bad_Brett>it doesn't work that way in the original game?
16:00<@Alberth>so while the game engine knows some type should be reduced in numbers, it cannot close them
16:01<@Alberth>yes it does, and it works, if you start from 1 fixed year, with 1 fixed industry set
16:02<@Alberth>note that original industries close quite quickly, so you get a constant flow of new industries
16:02<@Alberth>which gives the engine a chance to balance things out
16:02<Bad_Brett>is there any cure for this?
16:03<@Alberth>change newgrf specs, imho
16:03<frosch123> <- i still hope that terraforming control will solve the layout issue
16:03<frosch123>anyway, about closure the loudest opinion is to never close stuff :p
16:04<frosch123>and thus most grf implement something like no closure
16:04<frosch123>and most users request ottd settings to disable closure
16:04<frosch123>so, i don't think there is a solution in that direction :p
16:05<@Alberth>for default industries it makes sense as they never change shape, and you don't get new ones, except the oilrig
16:05<@Alberth>frosch123: just like disabling random introduction dates because dates are not kept in the right order :p
16:06<@Alberth>hmm, is that in the todos? :)
16:06<frosch123>which one?
16:06<@Alberth>disabling random intro dates of newgrf engines
16:06<frosch123>it's not something i would like to put into the todos
16:06<@Alberth>or rather, not doing that
16:07<frosch123>it's mostly about finding a solution that works
16:07<@Alberth>but instead fix the order of introduction
16:07<frosch123>which is nothing for a beginner :)
16:07<@Alberth>k :)
16:07<Bad_Brett>but another strange thing... some of my houses can only be constructed if there's a road tile to, let's say, the south. since most houses are surrounded by roads, there should be countless locations that works, but I still have to turn up the probability to a much higher values than on houses without this restriction
16:07<frosch123>and the discussion i had with michi_cc last year (which i believe is linked from the fs task) showed that it is pretty non-trivial :p
16:08<@Alberth>oh, it does not seem too complicated at first sight
16:08<frosch123>i think the problems start with preview vehicles :)
16:08<frosch123>originally i only wanted to keep the order of vehicles by keeping the order when randomising
16:09<@Alberth>let's disable that, I never use it anyway :p
16:09<frosch123>but previews might imply introdution of other vehicles as well
16:09<@Alberth>oops :)
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>what about the callback i proposed? every month, for each not-yet-available vehicle, you run this callback and it returns a bitmask which companies should get a prototype offer of this vehicle, and then again which companies get this vehicle without prototype offer
16:14<frosch123>it would allow the realism grfs to disable random introduction
16:14<frosch123>and i do not like to support that :p
16:14<frosch123>realism grfs break everything that is fun about ottd
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>who cares what you like :p
16:15<frosch123>me :p
16:15*Alberth does
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>ok, then different approach: the callback is only run when a vehicle is introduced (prototype or final), for each other vehicle
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>or rather for each vehicle
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>this would still allow solving the MU wagon issue
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>you get some dependency issue
16:19<@peter1138>Pikka, you must be very upset that your weren't nominated
16:19<Bad_Brett>would such a callback allow different companies to have access to different vehicles?
16:20<Bad_Brett>oh my, that sounds really exciting
16:20<Bad_Brett>that is a feature i requested a couple of years ago
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>afaik, the game supports that already, but there is no newgrf-y way to set the bitmask
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>and the game only sets "1 or all"
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16:23<Bad_Brett>so for example, if I rely heavily on coal transport, would it be possible to increase the chances of getting a good freight engine early?
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>unlikely, because that's data the NewGRF does not have any access to
16:24<Bad_Brett>but let's say
16:24<Bad_Brett>if I accept a prototype but don't use it
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>don't open this can of worms :p
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16:25<frosch123>Bad_Brett: you get punished by not getting offered any more for some time
16:26<frosch123>so, if you don't like them, just always accept them :)
16:26<Bad_Brett>yeah i know
16:27<Bad_Brett> but it would be cool if it actually was possible to miss certain vehicles if you made the producers angry :P
16:27<Bad_Brett>manufacturers may be a better word
16:28<frosch123>most producers do not stop selling stuff when they are angry about their customers
16:28<frosch123>they rather sell them stuff they do no need
16:28<Bad_Brett>"realism grfs break everything that is fun about ottd"
16:29<frosch123>though i heard about an innkeeper who banned customers from his inn when they disliked the appetizer
16:29<V453000>I should quote that everywhere
16:29<andythenorth>NUTS is very realistic
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>there was an "all you can eat buffet" operator who banned his most frequent customers
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>because they ate too much, so it ruined his business plan
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>i guess that's similar to providers banning "power users"
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16:32<andythenorth>Squid sucks
16:32<andythenorth>I'm going to make Squid 2
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>can you start squid 2 if you never released squid?
16:33<andythenorth>I'm getting killed by NoCarGoal again in single player :P
16:33<andythenorth>always I lose badly to it
16:33<Bad_Brett>what is squid? never heard of it
16:34<andythenorth>Squid ate FISH
16:34<frosch123>squid is what you get when you fill fish with onion
16:34<andythenorth>FISH is dead
16:34<frosch123>or something like that
16:35<Bad_Brett>FISH is dead?!
16:35<andythenorth>blame Pikka
16:35<andythenorth>like UKRS 2 is dead
16:35<Bad_Brett>what the hell?
16:35<andythenorth>FISH 2 was lame
16:35<andythenorth>and boring
16:35<frosch123>Bad_Brett: don't worry :) andy did fish 2, squid 1, next squid 2... somewhen he will come back to fish :p
16:36<andythenorth>is planned
16:36<frosch123>is cray related to clay?
16:37<frosch123>hmm, that could work as ekranoplane
16:38<andythenorth>NoCarGoal SP 40k per cargo, 15 years
16:38<andythenorth>losing *
16:38<Bad_Brett>what does FISH stand for anyway... Fantastic, Impressive Ships & Hovercrafts?
16:39<frosch123>fish is ships
16:39<frosch123>same style as firs
16:40<frosch123>though i am recently excited about srif
16:40<V453000>firs is relatively stupid? :P
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16:45<Bad_Brett>full industry replacement set... at least i thought so
16:45<Bad_Brett>now i'm not so sure anymore
16:45<frosch123>"full" is certainly wrong
16:45<frosch123>take a closer look at "fish" again :)
16:47<Bad_Brett>"FIRS Is Releasing Something"
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16:47<Eddi|zuHause>afair it was really "full" in the beginning, then it was changed to make it recursive
16:47<@Alberth>o/ LordAro
16:47<LordAro>hai Alberth
16:48<frosch123>hi OroLard :)
16:48<Bad_Brett>oh haai lordaro
16:48<andythenorth>what does CHIPS un-recurse to?
16:48<frosch123>andythenorth: "i am hungry" or something like that
16:49<andythenorth>also goes well with FIRS
16:49<andythenorth>and maybe FISH :P
16:49<Bad_Brett>hai doggie... can i have a dozen red roses pleeaase?
16:51<frosch123>did someone just steal your keyboard?
16:52<Bad_Brett>naah... it's a "the room" reference... when someone writes "hai" i feel the urge to write something like that
16:55<Bad_Brett>that movie is so hilarious, especially when you're a bit tipsy
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17:09<andythenorth>FIRS Tropic Basic economy sucks
17:09<andythenorth>better rework that
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17:23<andythenorth>beaten by NoCarGoal again
17:23<andythenorth>silver :P
17:24<Supercheese>you're not using cheat-y enough grfs :P
17:24<Supercheese>like that one grf that lets you make station ratings always 100% ;)
17:26<andythenorth>FIRS industries cost way too much to fund
17:26<andythenorth>maybe that should change
17:26*Supercheese agrees
17:26<Supercheese>Man, cirdan is a beast at fixing bugs
17:27<Supercheese>I have yet another binary to compile
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17:28<andythenorth>FIRS Tropic is wrong somehow
17:28<andythenorth>maybe I should re-introduce water chain?
17:29<andythenorth>and cut something else?
17:29<Supercheese>I've not tested tropic basic
17:29<andythenorth>try it
17:30<andythenorth>it's not so much bad
17:30<andythenorth>as meh
17:31<Supercheese>I like FIRS full
17:31<Supercheese>zillion industries
17:32<andythenorth>it's not right for GS
17:32<Supercheese>"Less is not more, more is more"
17:32<andythenorth>and it has issues on small maps
17:32<Supercheese>True, you can't really 128x128 with FIRS full
17:33<Supercheese>even 256.256 has broken chains fairly often
17:33<andythenorth>not so for Basic :)
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17:34<Bad_Brett>andy, what is your opinion on closing industries?
17:34<andythenorth>weak feature
17:34<andythenorth>ask Pikka for his opinion :)
17:34<Bad_Brett>even if they are unused?
17:34<andythenorth>it is contrary to mine
17:35<andythenorth>apart from clearing map space, what's the gameplay benefit of closing?
17:35<+michi_cc>Closing all the time is annoying, but no closing at all makes for very boring networks without any change ever.
17:35<Supercheese>old industries close to make room for new ones, like FIRS Smithies, Iron Works, etc.
17:35<Supercheese>Industry "Upgrades"
17:35<Bad_Brett>you have do adapt... you can't just build a giant railroad and leave it running for 100 years
17:35<Supercheese>of course I disable closure
17:36<Supercheese>and just magic-bulldoze old industies :P
17:36<Bad_Brett>and also, it can reflect history... for example, a car factory makes little sense before 1886
17:36<Supercheese>or just divert the lines away and keep them for museum-esque purposes
17:37<Supercheese>Bad_Brett just don't let car factories spawn before 1886 then
17:37<Bad_Brett>hehe yeah i realised it was a bad example
17:37<andythenorth>everything to do with date based closure is stinky
17:38<andythenorth>shall I cop out and put a port in FIRS tropic?
17:38<andythenorth>worked for Arctic
17:38<andythenorth>not big or clever
17:38<Supercheese>Exports: Rum
17:39<Bad_Brett>i was thinking more like this: date -> worse payment rate -> less transportion -> less production -> closure
17:39<andythenorth>it needs something interesting
17:39<andythenorth>* Tropic
17:39<andythenorth>but also I need bed
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17:41<Bad_Brett>'cheese, are you still there?
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17:51<Bad_Brett>hmm... OpenTTD is once again running at 40-50% CPU... I don't like it at all
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18:10<Eddi|zuHause>you use too many of the wrong callbacks?
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18:12<Supercheese>don't call distance to nearest town all the time, that's cpu-intensive IIRC
18:12<Supercheese>Not that I expect you're doing that, but still
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>well the industry could cache that value
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like the distance to towns changes very often :p
18:23<Supercheese>Sure, I'm not an expert on industry stuffs :)
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>it's just few steps needed: 1) add a new member to the industry struct, 2) fill it with a value on industry funding, 3) fill it with the value in afterloadgame, 4) return the value in the newgrf code, 5( recalculate all the values on funding a town
18:29<Bad_Brett>Eddi: probably some wrong callbacks
18:32<Bad_Brett>or too simply too many animations...
18:33<Bad_Brett>the CPU is at 0% on the z1 and z2 zoom levels where the sprites are much smaller
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>so your sprite cache is too small?
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19:39<Bad_Brett>Hmm... perhaps... i have very little knowledge in those things
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20:02<Eddi|zuHause>the sprite cache is in openttd.cfg
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>double this number until the problems stop
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21:03<Bad_Brett>really? had no idea
21:03<Bad_Brett>i will try it, thanks
21:05<Bad_Brett>nice! it works
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22:31<tracerpt>aloha :D
22:37<Bad_Brett>hello tracerpt
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---Logclosed Sat Mar 02 00:00:10 2013