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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-03-07

---Logopened Thu Mar 07 00:00:17 2013
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03:22<kamnet>Augh. I'm trying to update Scott Joplin Anthology on Bananas. Added new readme, changelog, reformatted the license, made modification to the obm file. Upped the version number, repackaged in new tar file. Bananas says, "There is already a package with the exact same footprint."
03:26<kamnet>Why isn't a new md5 hash being created? :-(
03:28<@peter1138>well collisions are not impossible
03:28<__ln__>they are in practice
03:28<__ln__>unless kamnet specifically tried to create a collision and had a lot of computing power to do that
03:29<kamnet>Well, I *AM* using an Intel i3 core... ;-)
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03:30<TinoDidriksen>I've had plenty of MD5 collisions even for just a few thousand files, so I had to store the files as {MD5}_{Length} to disambiguate.
03:31<__ln__>are we talking about the same MD5 as the rest of the world?
03:31<kamnet>I would think the addition of two new files would be enough to trigger a change.
03:32<__ln__>TinoDidriksen: can you show us a bunch of such colliding files?
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03:38<__ln__>because finding unintentional MD5 collisions with just a few thousand files sounds quite remarkable.
03:40<andythenorth>even if the files are all the same? :P
03:41<__ln__>in that case a bit less remarkable.. although i don't know how the _{Length} would distinguish two same files then.
03:43<__ln__>TinoDidriksen: how did you calculate those MD5 hashes?
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03:51<andythenorth>bananas: you can, for practical purposes, hide a grf by setting a very low max version?
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03:54<TinoDidriksen>__ln__, found it and it was not files - I remembered wrong. It was a cache of URLs to images where they collided, but given the much smaller data that's believable.
03:54<kamnet>hmmm, I'll try that andythenorth
03:54<TinoDidriksen>Currently the cache has 60k URLs and no collisions.
03:55<andythenorth>kamnet: result will be interesting. UI suggests to me that it's possible, but I didn't test.
03:56<__ln__>TinoDidriksen: are you sure you weren't e.g. calculating the hash only based on the first 30 bytes or something?
03:57<TinoDidriksen>Quite sure
03:57<kamnet>Nope, that don't work either.
03:58<TinoDidriksen>It's old code anyway; using SHA1 and better these days.
03:58<kamnet>There is already a package with the unique id '414D4A53'.
03:59<__ln__>kamnet: that's only four bytes.
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04:00<TinoDidriksen>So Bananas only uses the first 4 bytes of the hash for the ID?
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04:23<__ln__>i have no idea, but if it does, collisions are 2^(8*12) = 79228162514264337593543950336 times more likely than with MD5.
04:33<andythenorth>Don't Believe The Hype
04:34<kamnet>the great white hype
04:34<andythenorth>Public NME
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05:06<andythenorth>@seen pokka
05:06<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pokka was last seen in #openttd 20 hours, 39 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <Pokka> yes he has
05:10<V453000>@seen Pikka
05:10<@DorpsGek>V453000: Pikka was last seen in #openttd 15 hours, 23 minutes, and 37 seconds ago: <Pikka> goondight
05:10<V453000>see :P
05:14<kamnet>@seen alpaca
05:14<@DorpsGek>kamnet: alpaca was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 37 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, 36 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Alpaca> found the solution (eventually), thanks! Now I don't have to remake maps to tweak sets
05:17<andythenorth>@seen V453000
05:17<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: V453000 was last seen in #openttd 7 minutes and 10 seconds ago: <V453000> see :P
05:24<kamnet>@seen London
05:24<@DorpsGek>kamnet: I have not seen London.
05:24<kamnet>@seen France
05:24<@DorpsGek>kamnet: I have not seen France.
05:24<kamnet>Well, I suppose you've not seen Andy's underpants, either, eh?
05:24<kamnet>You're not fun, DorpsGek!
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05:48<V453000>andythenorth: those YMMV and whatever make it rather hard to read :D had to google those
05:48<andythenorth>well you learnt something ;)
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05:50<V453000>question is how long will I remember that
05:50<V453000>braindead incorporated
05:50<andythenorth>I do pretty well, YMMV
05:51<V453000>I dont even know if my answer is yes or no
05:51<andythenorth>BTW, FWIW (and just FYI), IMHO, TLAs and FLAs help with the tl;dr problem
05:51<andythenorth>yeah, right :P
05:51<andythenorth>have you fixed my ship set yet?
05:51<andythenorth>it's still broken for gameplay
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05:52<Eddi|zuHause>they're called ETLAs
05:52<V453000>what is broken there? :D
05:52<andythenorth>I am making changes to try and keep the sprite contributors happy (and for other reasons)
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>because FLA isn't an FLA
05:53<andythenorth>I don't want to draw all the ships :P
05:53<andythenorth>but it's kind of hard
05:53<V453000>see I dont have sprite contributors and I am happy in return :P
05:53<andythenorth>I am happier to have contributors than draw my own ships
05:53<andythenorth>also they might be right, more or less
05:53<V453000>though honestly my ship sucks ass
05:54<andythenorth>so the question: is there any point having river ships and sea ships separately?
05:54<V453000>was considering to STEAL one from FISH, but in the end it worked out somewhat :)
05:54<V453000>what do you mean separately, on a different RAILTYPE? :D
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09:30<Pikka>I don't think there's much point, andy.
09:31<Pikka>simplicate things!
09:36<andythenorth>Pikka: what was the question eh?
09:37<Pikka>whether to have separate river ships
09:37<andythenorth>oh that yes
09:37<andythenorth>I can
09:37<andythenorth>but should I? :P
09:37<andythenorth>also hello Pikka
09:37<Pikka>also hello andythenorth
09:48<Pikka>simplify :D
09:49<Pikka>16 RVs covering 1910-2050+, who needs more? :)
09:50<andythenorth>why 4 generations of bus?
09:50<andythenorth>why not just one?
09:50<andythenorth>is what puzzles me :)
09:50<Pikka>"realism" or something :)
09:50<andythenorth>oh that
09:52<Pikka>but there's significant stats changes
09:52<Pikka>it's not just "oh, here's another vehicle exactly the same as the one you got 5 years ago"
09:58<andythenorth>that's why I have no problems with this in HEQS :P
09:58<andythenorth>mining trucks: 35t, 50t, 90t, 120t, 160t
09:58<andythenorth>*that's* progress
09:58<andythenorth>not this dicking about
09:59<andythenorth>oh look, I'll give you just enough extra capacity and speed that you have to arse about scrapping 15% of vehicles on this route :P
09:59<andythenorth>BANDIT is going to be very realistic
10:00<Pikka>with fewer vehicles with more time between them, then even if there is arsing about rebalancing, at least it's not as often
10:00<andythenorth>it will have one big jump around 1948, when trucks could benefit from wartime development of engines, transmissions, axles etc
10:00<andythenorth>and another big jump in 1970s / 80s due to 'legislation changes'
10:00<andythenorth>that will do :P
10:01<andythenorth>even that is overthinking it :D
10:02<Pikka>but if you want to be very realistic, I suppose you have to take such considerations into consideration.
10:03<Pikka>also, the problem with occasionally keeping strange hours is you never know when it's appropriate to have a drink D;
10:04<Pikka>over the yardarm doesn't really apply when you got up at 6pm :)
10:05<Pinkbeast>Have a strict rule to get out of bed and put on at least one item of clothing before having a snifter
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12:18<andythenorth>Pikka: smuggling industry grf?
12:18<andythenorth>or silly idea
12:19<Pikka>bit strange :)
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12:41<andythenorth>lo Terkhen also quak
12:44<Pikka>andythenorth, silly idea?:
12:45<Pikka>all vehicles in one grf (trains, rvs, planes, ships), with parameter options to disable each vehicle type if players don't want them
12:45<andythenorth>oh oh oh
12:45<andythenorth>that's what I was doing with HEQS :)
12:45<andythenorth>it's supposed to have ships and planes in
12:45<andythenorth>I got shouted at :P
12:45<frosch123>moin :)
12:45<Pikka>also town buildings and industries in one grf?
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12:45<andythenorth>then I didn't do it
12:45<Pikka>hello frosch123
12:45<andythenorth>Pikka: all in one theme pack?
12:46<Pikka>a base set, a vehicle grf, a town&industry grf and an infrastructure grf
12:46<Pikka>for the complete pikka experience (tm)
12:46<andythenorth>I wouldn't
12:46<andythenorth>but you should
12:46<frosch123>Pikka: next step would be your own forum :)
12:47<Pikka>my own forum would imply I'm interested in what randoms have to say, frosch123 ;)
12:48<frosch123>ah, right, you were running a blog
12:48<Pikka>yes, a bolg
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12:49<Pikka>anyway, I shall also fail to put all this on bananas, thus resulting in it "not existing" as far as most openttd players are concerned. good idea, andythenorth? :)
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12:50<andythenorth>a blag
12:50<andythenorth>Pikka: not good idea also
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12:51<Pikka>aw, I thought it was a triffic idea
12:51<andythenorth>make your own bananas
12:51<andythenorth>is what I meant
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12:51<andythenorth>for one grf
12:51<andythenorth>if I make one grf
12:51<andythenorth>there will be no trains :(
12:52<andythenorth>except that mog thing
12:52<Pikka>trains are overrated
12:52<Pikka>or something
12:52<Pikka>TTD is all about planes and ships
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13:05<frosch123>yeah, esp. jet planes
13:05<frosch123>sometimes they start flaming
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13:12<andythenorth>shameful internet
13:12<andythenorth>also I should fix these fishing harbours
13:12<andythenorth>construction state smells
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13:26<jonty-comp>oh for god's sake
13:26*jonty-comp spambins some more simuscape shit
13:31<andythenorth>from or against?
13:31<jonty-comp>in the hall of fame topic
13:31<jonty-comp>i split it now so nothing to see here :P
13:33<@peter1138>they just can't stop can they
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13:35<Pikka>complaining is fun
13:35<jonty-comp>it is rather
13:35<jonty-comp>god knows if i wasn't a moderator i'd join them
13:35<jonty-comp>but i am a MATURE INDIVIDIAL now
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13:36<@peter1138>i shouldn't've done that
13:36<@peter1138>but i did
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>pfft :p
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>am i glad that the simuawards topic is in a forum that i don't read
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13:41<andythenorth>I am glad I don't read off-topic
13:42<andythenorth>jonty-comp: that was a nice warning, enjoy the FISH :)
13:42<@peter1138>yeah you'd have to vote about what windows you're using
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25070 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt polish.txt) (2013-03-07 18:45:15 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 2 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
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14:22<skrzyp>how can I optimize performance of OTTD?
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14:25<NGC3982>That depends on how far you are willing to go
14:26<NGC3982>Other than hardware changes, nothing really.
14:26<NGC3982>As far as i think.
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14:37<Bad_Brett>Messing with the sprite cache size did the trick for me
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14:39<@Alberth>don't run AIs, don't use 2048x2048 tile maps, use 8bpp, reduce animation effects
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>don't play the game => lowest CPU consumption of all
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14:48<Wolf01>hello :D
14:51<@Alberth>hi Wolf
14:52<@Alberth>and if you turn off the computer, you'll also save the environment :p
14:52<@Alberth>hi andy
14:54<NGC3982>Bad_Brett: One can do that?
14:55<NGC3982>Oh, and yes: Never try and play OpenTTD on an Atom CPU.
14:55<andythenorth>construction states
14:55<andythenorth>what joy
14:56<Bad_Brett>fun to make?
14:57<Bad_Brett><NGC3982> i know very little about these things. it was eddi who suggested that I should increase the sprite cache size in the config file... and the CPU usage went down from about 40-50% to 1-2%
14:57*NGC3982 tries.
14:57<andythenorth>construction states are pain in the arse
14:59<Bad_Brett>i think they're pretty fun to draw :)
15:00<ZxBiohazardZx>define optimize it
15:00<ZxBiohazardZx>are you having issues?
15:01<ZxBiohazardZx>the only time i want to optimise ottd is when im playing big maps (4k*4k) with alot of trains (1k-2k)
15:01<ZxBiohazardZx>and or combine above with paxdest / timetables
15:01<ZxBiohazardZx>then saving etc is bitchy
15:01<NGC3982>sorry, 4k?
15:06<Eddi|zuHause> <Bad_Brett> <NGC3982> i know very little about these things. it was eddi who suggested that I should increase the sprite cache size in the config file... and the CPU usage went down from about 40-50% to 1-2% <-- that's for if you use lots of high-resolution-32bpp graphics
15:09<ZxBiohazardZx>4098 whatever ottd uses
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>4096... how can you not know your powers of two? :p
15:11<Bad_Brett>yes, the sprite size cache shouldn't be a problem unless you play with 32bpp... the reason i mentioned it is because some people use zBase (though it still contains less animations than my grf)
15:11<Pikka>boo construction states
15:12<Bad_Brett>they're your friend :)
15:13<andythenorth>constructions states on water :P
15:13<Bad_Brett>Just make them blank?
15:14<andythenorth>have to code the fucker first though :P
15:14<andythenorth>all my frameworked code is awesome, but I have to extend it for custom construction states :P
15:15<Bad_Brett>then i feel your pain
15:15<andythenorth>also I don't get sleep :P
15:16<Bad_Brett>overrated :)
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15:28<andythenorth>Alberth: I need to check industry.override_default_construction_states==True
15:28<andythenorth>but industry.override_default_construction_states may be undefined
15:29<andythenorth>I could use hasattr, but I can't figure out how to check exists AND is true (in one simple line)
15:29<@Alberth>make it 'None' in the constructor?
15:30<andythenorth>instead of False?
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>"None" evaluates to false if not handled explicitly
15:30<andythenorth>currently I set self.override_default_construction_states = kwargs.get('override_default_construction_states', False)
15:30<andythenorth>which I thought would work
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>so "if blah:" will not be run if None or False, but is run if True
15:31<@Alberth>so why may it not exist then?
15:31<andythenorth>not sure
15:31<andythenorth>have to go look some more I guess :)
15:31<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I always check for None-ness explicitly, and for boolean value if it is not None
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>i think i don't understand the problem
15:32<andythenorth>I don't either
15:32<andythenorth>afaict I've done the right thing
15:32<andythenorth>I must miss something somewhere
15:32<@Alberth>in general it is bad practice to not know whether fields exist; life is a whole lot simpler if you just create all of them in the constructor
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>it would help if you described the actual problem, not your perception of a skewed solution
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>in CETS i state explicitly which arguments i want out of the kwargs
15:33<andythenorth>AttributeError: 'Industry' object has no attribute 'override_default_construction_states'
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. i call function(**values), but i def function(a,b,x, **values)
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>then it throws an error if a,b or x are not defined
15:35<andythenorth>user error
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>either you read it before you define it, or the assignment is in some conditional clause where the other branch misses it
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>or you mistyped
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15:39<andythenorth>not industry.override_default_construction_states
16:00<andythenorth>&& is not and in python :P
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>happens ;)
16:05<@Alberth>glad I am not the only one doing that wrong :)
16:07<andythenorth>I thought I was the only python retard in this channel? o_O
16:07<andythenorth>slow slow slow nml
16:08<andythenorth>now I have to find web pages to read every time I compile FIRS :P
16:08<andythenorth>I'm running out
16:08<andythenorth>it will be time for random wikipedia surfing soon
16:12<@Alberth>I can offer some eints issues instead :p
16:12<andythenorth>feeling abandoned? :(
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16:25<andythenorth>Alberth: any particular issue?
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16:26<@Alberth>no, not feeling abandoned, you're busy FIRSing :)
16:27<@Alberth>all but 4823 5162 and 5174 (and perhaps 5177) could use some of your time
16:28<@Alberth>I am adding some user and access rights to the program
16:29<@Alberth>have any ideas about how we should manage translators in a project?
16:29<andythenorth>implementation-wise, process-wise? or GUI-wise? :)
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16:31<andythenorth>nmlc ERROR: There are not enough registers available to perform all required computations in switch blocks. Please reduce the complexity of your code.
16:32<@Alberth>(10:29:41 PM) andythenorth: implementation-wise, process-wise? or GUI-wise? :) <-- process-wise would be a good start imho
16:34<andythenorth>Alberth: can you undo a language deletion?
16:34<@Alberth>upload the file again? :)
16:35<@Alberth>you'll lose all history though
16:37<frosch123>svn cp from older revision should work iirc
16:37<frosch123>hmm, though this is hg
16:37<frosch123>i am sure you can merge with and older version again in some way
16:38<@Alberth>frosch123: andythenorth is talking about the eints app, which has no version control
16:38<frosch123>but it operates on a repository, doesn't it?
16:38<frosch123>or does it have additional data in its own database?
16:39<@Alberth>it keeps everything in a file, which gets updated
16:39<@Alberth>it keeps the last n versions of that file though
16:41<andythenorth>there's no way to solve my nml issue, is there? :(
16:42<@Alberth>I am not sure what NML exactly does with registers, and whether there is still room
16:43<@Alberth>you may want to ask our planet maker, he might know
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16:50<andythenorth>Alberth: delete page improved
16:50<andythenorth>not awesome, but better
16:51<@Alberth>I seem to be only writing text today, instead of coding
16:52<andythenorth>oops, forgot something
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16:58*andythenorth puzzles about how to work around register limit in spritelayouts
16:59<andythenorth>probably need to remove some of the ground awareness stuff
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17:26<@Alberth>good night
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17:30<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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17:32<@Terkhen>good night
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17:37<Wolf01>'night all
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23:27<Snail>where's andy when
23:27<Snail>where's andy when I need him :)
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---Logclosed Fri Mar 08 00:00:18 2013