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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-03-08

---Logopened Fri Mar 08 00:00:18 2013
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02:52<andythenorth>changing newgrfs on a running game can cause problems
02:52<andythenorth>unexpected :P
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03:17<andythenorth>FIRS industries cost too much to build
03:17<andythenorth>cost parameter (lame?) or just fix?
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06:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I am +1 to "doesn't make sense" for parameter
06:33<andythenorth>the only case is playing frosch's GS where costs need to be about 8x lower
06:33<andythenorth>and that can be done with base cost mod
06:33<andythenorth>GS should be able to mod base costs
06:33<andythenorth>at will :P
06:33<andythenorth>"everything just got expensive"
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>"inflation script" :p
06:35<andythenorth>"you achieved your first target, you have been granted a concession to build cheap industries"
06:35<andythenorth>base costs per-company
06:35<andythenorth>here's a funny thing
06:35<andythenorth>FIRS is getting very close to 1.0
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08:02<martbhell>Hi! Is it possible to save company passwords between stopping openttd1.3.0-RC2 server and starting it again? (without patching?)
08:03<martbhell>Also, how do I make a save of the current map on the server and not my client?
08:06<@peter1138>1) no 2) rcon save ..
08:07<martbhell>2 ) thanks!
08:07<martbhell>i never played the original tycoon, but this game is quite awesome :)
08:09<martbhell>okay, if i were to do this patching. Could people still connect with the default 1.3.0-rc2 client?
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>usually not
08:12<martbhell>okay, ill work around it :)
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>there are very few patches which will not cause desyncs if combined with unpatched clients
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>and even then, the build system will mark the build as patched which will prevent unpatched clients to join
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11:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth, what's your NML issue (I don't want to read back 3 days)?
11:24<andythenorth>planetmaker: not enough registers to handle complicated spritelayouts
11:24<andythenorth>not the first time it has come up
11:25<@planetmaker>hm, I see. I know what you mean...
11:25<andythenorth>it's a newgrf spec issue, not nml afaict
11:25<andythenorth>I can see workarounds
11:25<andythenorth>move back to the old-school way, using more switches
11:25<andythenorth>and fewer new-fangled checks inside spritelayouts ;)
11:25<@planetmaker>yes and no, I think. NML reserves some... not 100% easy to change... not sure I can change. But ofc even then there's a hard newgrf limit
11:26*planetmaker likes complex sprite layouts a lot though :D
11:26<andythenorth>they do have advantages yes
11:26<andythenorth>they are kind of neat
11:27<andythenorth>I am pretty certain I can solve the FIRS case with more switches
11:27<andythenorth>and repeating the spritelayout is pretty trivial
11:27<@planetmaker>Anyway, I see no quick way I can alleviate this issue (for you or anyone, not even myself)
11:27<andythenorth>nah, I need to change the design of my code, it's fine
11:27<andythenorth>I had a similar issue in nfo once, where I ran out of varaction 2 IDs
11:27<andythenorth>which I also fixed by redesigning code
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12:03<andythenorth>lo Alberth
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12:22<kero>Maybee somebody can help ? I'm trying to understand GameScripts, but I can find out why is "constructor () {}" always called and what is it for. Is there some documentation about it ? I've already seen but there is nothing in there
12:23<@Alberth>find some squirrel documentation, as GS is actually just a squirrel script
12:24<@Alberth>constructors are the methods called when an object is created
12:24<@Alberth>it's really basic to how object oriented programming works
12:26<kero>oh, that's a squirrel function. Yes, I should get it
12:27<kero>actually, I'm *also* watching at squirrel documentation, it's just that I'm mixing discovering of squirrel and NoGo api
12:27<@Alberth> is what I use, it may be too dense for you
12:27<kero>thank you very much
12:28<kero>no it's fine, i'm watching at this also, in parallel :-)
12:29<kero>I don't know squirrel, but I know some programming, which make it easy to understand it
12:29<@Alberth>I don't think it explains what a constructor is
12:29<kero>gonna search. Thank you anyway
12:30<@Alberth>object oriented programming is a good starting point
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12:57<Superuser>hello world
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12:58<@Alberth>the world welcomes you
12:59<Superuser>I was imitating K&R
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13:01*Alberth runs Superuser
13:04<@planetmaker>:-) I would have liked today also run superuser... "Your train has been cancelled due to an engine failure"
13:04<@planetmaker>how nice
13:04<Superuser>What does #openttd think of my proposals to improve the original English strings of OpenTTD? These are not necessarily proposals by the way, they may just be queries
13:04<Superuser>damn it took me long to type that
13:04<@planetmaker>that train was supposed to *start* in that station I wanted to board it
13:04<Superuser>also lol
13:05<Superuser>you forgot to run sudo
13:05<Superuser>you should type sudo !! or sudo bang bang afterwards ;)
13:07<Superuser>so, what about it?
13:07<@planetmaker>not every local authority is a city. Cities are special in OpenTTD
13:07<Superuser>Really? That is egg-celent
13:08<Superuser>just the answer I was looking for
13:08<Superuser>what about the last one
13:08<@planetmaker>{G 0} is iirc gender selection
13:08<__ln__>should OpenTTD made require Internet connection to a server even in single player?
13:08<@Alberth>but you are already a super user :)
13:08<__ln__>it's the new trend in this game genre
13:08<@planetmaker>__ln__, yes. And require payment of 1ct per 5 minutes to my bank account
13:09<@Alberth>as soon as we have finished that deal with the ISP
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13:11<@Alberth>Superuser: it's so secret it needs encryption?
13:12<Superuser>well, it probably doesn't require it in this case but the idea is that a) a record won't be kept so it gives OTTD a bad name and b) secure pastebins should be more popular
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13:13<@Alberth>right, like it not already in our public repository for ages :p
13:14<@Alberth>but fyi, I am not going to enable Javascript just for a paste bin
13:14<@planetmaker>certainly not safer anyway ;-)
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13:17<Superuser>>JavaScript still disabled
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13:19<Superuser> there you go Alberth
13:19<Superuser>Mr Static
13:20<@Alberth>thank you
13:21<@Alberth>I fail to see the need for a turing complete programming language for reading text :)
13:22<@planetmaker>and yes, IIRC you can add plurals to 'reserved'.
13:23<@planetmaker>but not 100% sure :-)
13:23<@planetmaker>in any case, web translator will complain, if you do but you can't
13:24<@planetmaker>wtf... it's getting wintery again? I removed my warm fur from my jacket at 20°C in Brussels... brrr
13:26<Superuser>What is the 'squirrel' category in OpenTTD FlySpray for? Is it related to this? (
13:26<@planetmaker>game and ai scripts are written in squirrel
13:27<Superuser>aww shit
13:27<Superuser>it's a shame mruby wasn't around at the time
13:27<Superuser>also I made an easy task, feel free to complete this when you're bored
13:28<@planetmaker>and OpenTTD provides an API for them. Yes, rubi was around...
13:28<Superuser>gives you that feel-good feeling that sole masturbation just can't provide
13:28<Superuser>no, not Ruby, mruby, a version for embedding easily into C
13:28<Superuser>like Lua
13:29<@planetmaker>Superuser, and why don't you make a patch?
13:30<Superuser>because my familiarity with the codebase is precisely null
13:30<Superuser>that's it?
13:31<Superuser>nothing else needed to change?
13:31<@Alberth>for the english language, yes
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13:32<@Alberth>all other changes are handled by automagic scripts
13:33<Superuser>how do you do --depth 1
13:33<Superuser>kinda forgotten my hg, everything uses git now
13:33<Superuser>that is I don't want to download every single changeset
13:33<@planetmaker>then use git, if you prefer it
13:33<Eddi|zuHause><Superuser> no, not Ruby, mruby, a version for embedding easily into C <-- so why do you think that would have been chosen over squirrel?
13:34<Superuser>because Ruby is beautiful
13:34<Superuser>and amazing
13:35<Superuser>and it doesn't use C-like syntax, I cringe a little when I see the shackles of the C anachronism applied to a modern embedded scripting language such as Squirrel
13:35<@planetmaker>by default hg does not allow shallow checkouts. But there's some extensions which allow it
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>Superuser: but one of the reasons squirrel was chosen was its c-like syntax
13:36<Superuser>but C syntax is godawful and a step back
13:37<Superuser>btw I've been reading Edward Gibbon's famous magnum opus as of late, which is why I am suddenly speaking like an Enlightenment historian
13:37<goodger>you aren't
13:39<Pinkbeast>I suspect Gibbon rarely if ever said "btw"
13:40<@Alberth>Superuser: git also downloads all change sets
13:41<Superuser>unless you shallow clone
13:41<@planetmaker>besides that, a checkout of OpenTTD is rather small in size, even a complete
13:41<@Alberth>afaik hg has that too
13:41<@planetmaker>but use SVN, if you want really shallow
13:42<Superuser>okay fair enough I'll just dl the full repo
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25071 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-03-08 18:45:38 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 9 changes by ewaldhorn
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 1 changes by Evropi
13:45<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 3 changes by Yoursnotmine
13:45<@DorpsGek>japanese - 10 changes by Aknuth
13:45<@DorpsGek>tamil - 1 changes by aswn
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13:54<Superuser>this is the anthem to my president in OpenTTD
14:09<Superuser>oh I forgot one
14:09<Superuser>STR_TIMETABLE_EXPECTED_TOOLTIP reads '{BLACK}Switch between expected and schedule'
14:09<Superuser>Shouldn't it be 'scheduled'?
14:09<Superuser>also, svn keeps closing the network connection unexpectedly
14:09<Superuser>hg and git don't work
14:09<Superuser>I don't know what to say
14:10<Superuser>anyway, what do you think about STR_TIMETABLE_EXPECTED_TOOLTIP?
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14:23<Superuser>anyway planetmaker, what do you think about that string?
14:23<Superuser>Schedule or scheduled
14:23<Superuser>also thanks, worked like a charm
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14:28<Superuser>Also, regarding STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SOUND_CONFIRM_HELPTEXT: some other strings in the field actually do start with 'Play sound effect' instead of simply play sound... what should this be changed to?
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14:30<@planetmaker>I'm no native speaker, Superuser
14:31<Superuser>still, what do you think? And you can certainly comment on the latter
14:32<Superuser>what should the STR_CONFIG_SETTINGS_SOUND group be standardised to? 'Play sound' or 'Play sound effect'?
14:32<Superuser>And yes, I get extremely autistic about these things, planetmaker
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14:33<@planetmaker>yes. That's why it would be productive, if you compiled a summary patch of all changes you suggest or might suggest and then we can look at it in summary. Much more time efficient really
14:34<@planetmaker>scheduled might sound better. But then, I'm no native speaker
14:34<Superuser>btw, do you mind if I replace the x with the unicode times symbol?
14:34<__ln__>me neither, but in its current form it sounds ungrammatical.
14:35<Superuser>pretty much all computer software does not conform to English grammar __ln__
14:35<@planetmaker>Superuser, that depends on whether we have the unicode symbol in our basesets
14:35<__ln__>Superuser: what nonsense are you saying?
14:35<@planetmaker>if not: I do mind. Unless you provide the proper sprite to add it to them
14:36<Superuser>× <-- the multiplication sign
14:36<Superuser>huh, I thought the font depended on the system you're on?
14:36<@planetmaker>not necessarily
14:37<Superuser>okay then, maybe in another patch but for now I'll just do this stuff
14:37<@planetmaker>openttd provides a default font. And other fonts are only selected, if it can't display the required glyphs. Or if asked explicitly to use a different font
14:38<__ln__>Superuser: pretty much all computer software does conform to english grammar if the user interface is in english in the first place. some small open source projects may not.
14:38<Superuser>this is hardly a small open source project
14:38<Superuser>and no
14:39<Superuser>think of every button ever in a GUI
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14:39<Superuser>don't they usually contain just one word?
14:39<Superuser>oh wow, IPv6!
14:40<@planetmaker>it's not about the buttons only. It's about the whole text iirc
14:40<@planetmaker>and even the main menu has buttons with more than one word ;-)
14:45<Superuser>anyway, __ln__, which would you prefer? With the word effect or without?
14:47<__ln__>Superuser: a single word can't be ungrammatical per se.
14:48<__ln__>besides, even single-word sentences aren't ungrammatical necessarily.
14:48<Superuser>is that a yes or a no?
14:50<__ln__>can't express an opinion without knowing the context.
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14:51<Superuser>__ln__, here are some examples:
14:51<Superuser>Play sound upon display of newspapers
14:51<Superuser>Play sound effect on successful constructions or other actions
14:51<Superuser>Play sound or play sound effect? We must standardise.
14:52<Superuser>you are the kingmaker
14:52<Superuser>the choice is yours, __ln__
14:52<andythenorth>Play sound of course
14:52<@planetmaker>Superuser, it *could* also be asked in the forums ;-)
14:53<Superuser>it's a long an arduous process. We need a decision fast, before the next OpenTTD is released
14:53<Superuser>plus, the change is utterly trivial, lol
14:54<__ln__>but i don't read and especially not write to the forums so the best possible opinions aren't available there.
14:54<__ln__>without effect, i'd say.
14:54<Superuser>okay, without effect it is
14:58<+glx><@planetmaker> Superuser, it *could* also be asked in the forums ;-) <-- isn't that the best way to not have an answer ?
14:58<Superuser>2 people's opinions are enough :)
14:59<Superuser>I don't see many forum users complaining about all the dashes left in various strings by a programmer who is presumably native in German and not English...
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15:00<__ln__>sounds terrible
15:02<Superuser>damn straight
15:15<Ristovski>how do I compile the dedicated server?
15:15<Ristovski>or is it just the standard openttd run with the -D option?
15:17<frosch123>you can just use -D
15:17<frosch123>the special compile option is just to require less libraries
15:17<frosch123>like no X and such
15:24<Ristovski>frosch123: what is it?
15:24<Ristovski>it isnt "make server"
15:24<__ln__>you mean "isn't"
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15:26<__ln__>Ristovski: if you are unable to locate the apostrophe key on your keyboard, you can type the whole words, e.g. in this case "is not".
15:26<Ristovski>__ln__: I can, I just wont because its not necessary
15:27<__ln__>oh but it is necessary.
15:27<Ristovski>it is not.
15:27<__ln__>it is, this channel is english only.
15:28<Supercheese>Just use an autohotkey script that auto-fixes stuff for you
15:28<__ln__>not engrish.
15:28<Supercheese>I have such a script, it autofilters dont to don't, isnt to isn't, etc.
15:28<frosch123>Ristovski: ./configure --enable-dedicated
15:28<frosch123>or something like that
15:28<Supercheese>saves many a keystroke while still keeping grammar intact
15:29<Supercheese>although we seem to have abandoned capitalizing the first word of the sentence, as well as trailing punctuation
15:30<Supercheese>Not quite sure when that happened...
15:31<__ln__>Yes we seem to have, but that shouldn't be made a valid excuse for abandoning even more features of correct orthography.
15:31<andythenorth>should I release FIRS 1.0?
15:31<Superuser>yezz :DDD
15:31<andythenorth>needs some play testing I reckon
15:31<Supercheese>Sounds good
15:31<Supercheese>My spring break starts in 2 hours
15:31<andythenorth>Supercheese: any comments from your Tropic game?
15:31<Supercheese>no more pesky university classes for 10-ish days
15:32<Supercheese>andythenorth: not yet, due to said pesky classes
15:32<andythenorth>I can't release 1.0 with so many broken translations
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>fix them
15:32<andythenorth>I am somewhat hampered
15:32<andythenorth>by the fact they are foreign :P
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>release 0.9
15:32<andythenorth>I released 0.10 already :P
15:32<andythenorth>would be a bit weird
15:33<Supercheese>0.9 is released innit
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>then release 0.11 :)
15:33<Supercheese>0.10, even
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>or make it 0.99
15:33<andythenorth>0.99 is funny
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>"you get 1.0 when you finish these pesky translations"
15:33<Supercheese>0.0x0A, even
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's commonly done for "release candidates", e.g KDE
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>x.90, x.95, x.99, (x+1).0
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: i honestly can't keep up with andythenorth's release schedule :p
15:35<andythenorth>'schedule' ?
15:35<andythenorth>wtf is that :)
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>exactly :)
15:35<andythenorth>I write code, draw pixels, release
15:35<Supercheese>"whenever he feels like it," yes, that is hard to keep up with ;)
15:36<Supercheese>OTTD is easy to follow, updates are mostly on April Fool's :P
15:36<Supercheese>major updates*
15:37<andythenorth>I should fix these stupid boats
15:38*andythenorth fixes stupid boats
15:38<andythenorth>I'm so bored of this ship set
15:38<Supercheese>play using 100% zeppelins then
15:39<Supercheese>Fishing zeppelins, oil zeppelins, fruit zeppelins
15:39<Supercheese>Gotta catch 'em all
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>i did oil zeppelins
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>problem is you have only one heliport
15:39<Supercheese>Eddi, just raise some land beside the rig, build a helistation
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>that's silly
15:40<Supercheese>Now you've 4 helipads
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>that's so silly V453000 would do it :p
15:40<Supercheese>+ a depot
15:40<Supercheese>NUTS Zeppelin set
15:40<Supercheese>Err, wait, it is an actual acronym
15:41<andythenorth>honestly, someone make a case for new models of freight ship
15:41<andythenorth>because I don't see one
15:41<Supercheese>NUTZ Unrealistic Trains and Zeppelins
15:41<Supercheese>there ya go
15:41<andythenorth>1870-2020, same size, same speed
15:41<andythenorth>why bother with a new one?
15:42<Supercheese>Ship sizes, speeds, and loading speeds have changed in that time interval
15:42<Supercheese>but really it's a wash, just add more ships
15:42<Supercheese>infinite capacity
15:42<andythenorth>ship sizes haven't changed
15:42<andythenorth>speeds haven't changed much
15:43<andythenorth>loading speed is a non-factor for gameplay
15:43<andythenorth>it's not reported by the game anywhere, it's effectively invisible
15:43<andythenorth>we should just remove it from the spec
15:43<Supercheese>Reliability also has changed, but that's a useless stat anyway
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15:43<andythenorth>running cost is a non-factor
15:43<Supercheese>affects nothing when breakdowns are disabled
15:43<andythenorth>purchase cost is a non-factor, except in early game
15:44<Supercheese>Well, for large freight ships you could just take the Av8 route and have "passive" upgrades
15:44<Supercheese>i.e. no new model
15:44<andythenorth>that annoys Eddi|zuHause :)
15:44<Supercheese>but that sounds like TMWFTLB, and seems to annoy some
15:47<Superuser>I want to commit with hg but it won't let me push, says it needs ssl
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15:52<Superuser>wat do????
15:53<@planetmaker>uhm, you don't have commit access, Superuser
15:53<@planetmaker>create a patch. attach it to your FS task
15:53<Superuser>I never really got how to make .patch files :(
15:54<Superuser>you need to have 2 copies
15:54<Supercheese>It's easy in SVN, not so in hg
15:54<Superuser>the thing is they have different names
15:54<Superuser>so I'll add a useless file right
15:56<andythenorth>hg diff > my_patch.diff ?
15:57<Superuser>it's empty :L
15:58<Superuser>what if I just send you the raw text file
15:58<Superuser>and YOU commit it, andythenorth
15:58<Superuser>and no I don't care about being credited
15:58<andythenorth>what's it a patch for?
15:59<Superuser>changing some of the original english strings for greater uniformity
16:00<Superuser>you down with that?
16:00<andythenorth>only one problem
16:00*andythenorth has no commit rights
16:01<andythenorth>and I don't much fancy attaching your patch to FS :P
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16:03<Superuser>maybe use hg export?
16:04<@planetmaker>hg diff > blah.diff
16:04<@planetmaker>works fine. If you actually changed the file in the repo (and saved it)
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>hg export includes commit messages and stuff
16:05<@planetmaker>not what you want for uncomitted changes
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16:07<Superuser>I committed ofc
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you commit to your local repo, of course
16:07<Superuser>the problem is that all the diffs produced are empty
16:07<Superuser>and when I hg status it says nothing has changed
16:08<@planetmaker>of course. Nothing has changed then
16:08<@planetmaker>then you need to export your commits
16:08<Superuser>requires me to name the changeset
16:08<Superuser>how do I find that out
16:08<Superuser>actually most things require you to name the revision/changeset
16:09<Superuser>relating to diffs anyway
16:09<andythenorth>hg log?
16:09<Superuser>that gives me things from as far back as 2004...
16:10<@planetmaker>hg log -n20
16:10<@planetmaker>latest 20 changesets
16:10<@planetmaker>likely you might want hg export tip
16:10<Superuser>ok, found it by -d
16:12<Superuser>I exported and redirected to a .diff
16:13<andythenorth>pax : mail ratio?
16:13<andythenorth>capacti 1 pax = 1.66 mailbags?
16:14<Superuser>pax = ?
16:14<andythenorth>where did I get that from? o_O
16:14<Superuser>oh I thought it was edgy for 'packs'
16:14<@Alberth>andythenorth: your fingers :)
16:14<andythenorth>1.66 fingers?
16:14<@Alberth>quite possibly :)
16:15<andythenorth>I think I just made it up :P
16:15<@Alberth>3 pax = 5 mail sounds a lot safer with fingers at stake
16:16<andythenorth>5 pax = 4 mail seems more plausible
16:16<andythenorth>I had an odd case initially
16:16<@Alberth>hmm, yellow wagons for scrap metal :p
16:18<Superuser>why does this unit of measurement exist :(
16:20<@Alberth>oh, scrap metal pays much better :p
16:22*andythenorth just did that thing of figuring out a solution to an ill-defined problem :P
16:23<andythenorth>newgrfs should declare a semver API which GS could use
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>a what?
16:25<andythenorth>semantic versioned API, allows GS authors to write code against a specific newgrf (or newgrfs)
16:25<andythenorth>for example, cargo goal GS that knew about specific FIRS cargos
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>GS can read which cargos are defined, right?
16:26<andythenorth>but it has no way afaik to require a specific newgrf
16:27<andythenorth>except via documentation, or error messages
16:27<andythenorth>maybe that's enough
16:27*andythenorth goes back to boats :
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16:42<LordAro>heyo Alberth
16:43<kero>please: is it possible to load/reload a gamescript ingame ?
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16:46<kero>Superuser : how do I do that ?
16:49<Superuser>I have absolutely no idea, but I know it is possible.
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17:31<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Sat Mar 09 00:00:20 2013