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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-03-09

---Logopened Sat Mar 09 00:00:20 2013
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03:15<@Terkhen>good morning
03:23<@Alberth>morning
04:04<Supercheese>good night
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04:59<Wolf01>hi o/
05:06<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
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05:20<frosch123>morning :)
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05:22<Wolf01>quak frosch123
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07:07<V453000>this can be used quite nicely, but is this a bug? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/BugOrAFeature.png
07:07-!-andythenorth_ [~andytheno@2002:4d66:7022:0:9475:cf9:b515:a66b] has joined #openttd
07:07<V453000>if there is a logic train, it seems to keep blocking path of both diagonal half-tiles
07:07<V453000>therefore the real train will never leave its spot
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07:08<V453000>if you substitute the logic train with a normal train, the longer train will normally depart as expected
07:08<V453000>bug or a feature? :)
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07:08<frosch123>maybe it is too fast?
07:08<frosch123>so when it reverses it always already leaves the tiel
07:09<V453000>something like that I guess
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>add another halftile of track, so the time is longer between reversals?
07:10<V453000>it isnt an issue but unexpected behaviour to me, 2 halftiles are enough with all trains, so I am just asking if speed breaking PBS is a bug
07:11<V453000>I know how to solve that :)
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>what i think happens: logic train leaves the tile, reverses immediately. then a battle begins between logic train and the normal train, which train can reserve its path. this is usually "won" by the train that accelerates the fastest
07:11<V453000>pretty much
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think it's a bug
07:11<V453000>ok :)
07:12<V453000>one of our madmen found how to brutally abuse it :P
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>it may be "solveable" by priorities
07:13<V453000>nah you dont really need to solve it, if it is a problem you can always just put there a slower logic train
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07:41<andythenorth_>Is FIRS done yet? Can someone test it? o_O
07:42<frosch123>should we do a tropic or toyland nocargoal game? :)
07:43<@planetmaker>anyone knows a NewGRF which defines a currency?
07:43<frosch123>nope :)
07:43<@planetmaker>:-)
07:43<frosch123>i would think if there is any, then from the czech tycoonez community
07:44<@planetmaker>but... there's the czech kroner in the game as well :D
07:44<frosch123>but other than that, it is likely another of of the patchman-wasted-time-on-deving-a-feature-request-which-noone-used-then
07:45<@planetmaker>which means we should remove it ;)
07:46<frosch123>to conclude belugas-wasted-time-on-deving-a-ttdp-feature-which-noone-used-then :)
07:47<@planetmaker>:D
07:48<V453000>:D hello pm :)
07:48<@planetmaker>o/
07:48<@Alberth>hi andy, fyi I started a little test with temperate basic economy
07:49<V453000>devzone pullstuff just saved my ass btw :P managed to replace one of my templates for wagons and later smartly deleted one of the two :D
07:49<V453000>pushstuff
07:49<V453000>and stuff
07:49<@planetmaker>good :D So it pays off to use VCS ;-)
07:49<frosch123>V453000: do you know about tycoonez.com doing a czech translation of ttd for ttdp?
07:50<V453000>I doubt tycoonez.com is doing anything at all
07:50<frosch123>http://ttd.tycoonez.com/?id=130 <- ok, the download page only lists the unifont grf
07:50<V453000>I dont know much about them (I dont love them either), but from what I can tell from forum activity (1 post per 2 weeks?), I doubt they are active what so ever
07:51<frosch123>yeah, it died in 2009 together with ttdp or so
07:51<V453000>idk what that is but it is from 2006 :D
07:51<frosch123>minime disappeared about the same time as patchman
07:51<frosch123>V453000: ttdp cannot draw system truetype fonts, so someone started drawing a unicode font himself
07:52<V453000>right
07:52<V453000>idk I always used english, I hate czech in games
07:52<V453000>and by hate I mean hate
07:52<frosch123>yeah, i know :)
07:52<frosch123>same applies to all translations of anything
07:53<frosch123>my whole computer is running on an english locale
07:53<V453000>I just wanted to say that I dont know anything about this problematic because I never solved anything there
07:53<frosch123>and when i recently encountered the english translation of my german software at work
07:53<frosch123>i trashed it completely and translated myself :)
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07:54<V453000>I often need to use tool-translator when I talk with colleagues who use czech versions of adobe producs :s
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08:00<snappy>Been a long time since I looked into openttd. I was wondering how far along has the newgfx come?
08:01<frosch123>opengfx is done for 3 years
08:01<snappy>wow, really has been a long time for me heh.
08:02<V453000>YAY :D 10 000 X pixels are pure white errors :D that is what I call smooth compiling
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08:04<frosch123>what are "X pixels"? are they better than "Y pixels"?
08:07<V453000>x as in substitute with a random number :P
08:11<@Alberth>I picked 4
08:11<V453000>not too far, is actually 32
08:22<V453000>nuts at almost 30 000 lines of code ._.
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08:42<frosch123>damn, i hate this hg bug!
08:42<@planetmaker>which?
08:43<frosch123>whenever i use -m "-Remove: ..." it considers -R as a command line option
08:43<frosch123>instead of a parameter to -m
08:43<frosch123>only happens to -R
08:43<@planetmaker>uh?
08:43<frosch123>though i don't even know what option -R is
08:43<@planetmaker>that is... peculiar
08:43<@planetmaker>recursive
08:43<frosch123>but then it complains that -m lacks its parameter :p
08:44<@planetmaker>which hg version?
08:44<frosch123>planetmaker: no idea what recusive should mean for qnew
08:44<frosch123>1.6.4
08:44<@planetmaker>nothing ;-). But... 1.6 is... ancient
08:44<frosch123>squeeze :)
08:45<@planetmaker>yeah... I got a checkout from hg stable and sometimes update to latest tag :D
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08:59<frosch123>which script language uses {%foobar%} to query the database field "foobar" ?
09:00<frosch123>i have been receiving spam mails from {%FROM_NAME%} for several weeks now :p
09:01<+michi_cc>Some random bulk mail software I'd guess.
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09:17<wojteks86>hi
09:17<wojteks86>can someone please tell me who created webtranslator? or where did we get it from :D
09:18<@Alberth>our sysadmin TB built it
09:19<wojteks86>is it possible to make it an exe? to use locally for other translations too?
09:20<@Alberth>unlikely
09:20<@Alberth>it's Python, and aimed specifically at openttd strings
09:21<@Alberth>eg newgrf strings are already different
09:21<wojteks86>I was just thinking... having it as a local app would make life so much easier for a translator :D
09:21*Alberth agrees completely
09:21<@Alberth>want to write one?
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09:22<wojteks86>Im not that experienced so not sure what is the difference between newgrf strings and ottd?
09:22<wojteks86>yes
09:22<@Alberth>the set of {...} commands is different, for example
09:22<wojteks86>I will start some time this month, I think
09:23<wojteks86>aha
09:23<@Alberth>nice, we should talk then
09:23<@Alberth>do you know about the eints project at devzone?
09:23<wojteks86>that's gonna take me 10 years, but I will then share it here :P
09:23<wojteks86>nope
09:24<@Alberth>it's a web app I am building to do translations of newgrf strings
09:24<wojteks86>is it somewhere on http://dev.openttdcoop.org
09:24<wojteks86>?
09:25<@Alberth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/eints
09:26<@Alberth>but it could also be used as a back-end for uploading and downloading changes from another application, eg like one you are considering to write
09:27<wojteks86>STR_BEER :{YELLOW}{COMMA} bottles of beer are needed
09:27<wojteks86>:D
09:27<wojteks86>good one
09:29<V453000>:D
09:29<wojteks86>ok so you are writing a web app
09:29<wojteks86>I was thinking of an application that uses locally stored text files
09:30*Alberth nods
09:30<@Alberth>there are actually 2 problems
09:31<@Alberth>one is that a newgrf project currently just has files, but they don't have enough information about what strings need to be worked on
09:32<@Alberth>also, an application like yours needs something to talk to when uploading or downloading changes
09:32<@Alberth>eg merging changes of different translators
09:32<wojteks86>or you can choose a source file manually
09:33<wojteks86>hmm yes
09:33<@Alberth>what if several authors work in the same language file?
09:33<wojteks86>well, thats how it works atm
09:33<@Alberth>and the newgrf author also decides to change the files that you just downloaded
09:34<@Alberth>that's the application I am making currently, it knows what strings need work, and keeps track of updates from everybody
09:34<wojteks86>you have more exp and Im sure you know how to do it better :D honestly
09:35<wojteks86>I was just too selfish ;)
09:35<@Alberth>no, you're not, but you're missing some pieces of the bigger puzzle :)
09:36<wojteks86>the reason for that is that I seem to be the only active Polish translator at the moment, but I know there are quite a few for Dutch and German
09:37<@Alberth>Well, my webapp thus keeps track of what needs work. That's a bit useless in itself, if you cannot change strings as well.
09:37<@Alberth>Thus I am extending my application with web-based editing of strings.
09:37<wojteks86>a tool I thought of would be useful only for me, unless there is another translator out there who wants to translate the same newgrf as me
09:37<@Alberth>However, an application like you propose is also on my wish list.
09:37<wojteks86>it will be very useful when you finish
09:38<@Alberth>so I think we can combine the effort
09:38<wojteks86>why? is there something you would like to do with the strings locally even when you'd have your own app done?
09:39<@Alberth>tbh, yes. I want to click 'get all updates from all projects', and I can edit the strings locally
09:39<wojteks86>ah, that would be useful
09:40<wojteks86>does that mean you could vote for translations and choose the one that suits the most?
09:41<@Alberth>if you want to build your application, eints can be a source of changes that need to be handled, and it can accept work you have done.
09:41<@Alberth>Also, the code can parse strings, check correctness of them, and so on
09:42<@Alberth>which is code you'll also need, so it can be a source of inspiration on how to do things
09:42<@Alberth>or, if you use Python3, you can just copy it :)
09:42<wojteks86>yes :)
09:42<wojteks86>when did you start coding?
09:43<@Alberth>a month ago or so?
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09:43<wojteks86>no, I mean in general :D
09:43<mapa-falsh>hello
09:43<wojteks86>hi
09:43<@Alberth>but I started looking at strings and translations much longer ago
09:43<mapa-falsh>i have a question
09:44<mapa-falsh>i ment ,i need a big help
09:44<@Alberth>wojteks86: oh, in general, hmm, let's see, 30 years ago or so? :)
09:44<@Alberth>mapa-falsh: just ask the question
09:44<wojteks86>that explains a lot :)
09:44<mapa-falsh>how i install a latest version of openttd on my linux mint 13?
09:44<@Alberth>install the generic linux binary
09:44<mapa-falsh>... btw i am compleate noob in question or working on linux
09:45<@Alberth>'install' mostly means download and unpack :)
09:45<mapa-falsh>hmm... ok i installed so i will try to unpack it..... brb
09:46<mapa-falsh>*install=*downloaded
09:46<@Alberth>mapa-falsh: no problem, we're not going anywhere :)
09:46<wojteks86>yet :)
09:46<@Alberth>:)
09:47<@Alberth>it's raining outside, you don't want to go outside anyway :)
09:47<wojteks86>not raining out here
09:47<wojteks86>I need to catch a bus in 30 mins ;)
09:47<mapa-falsh>hmm i downloaded for my linux mint 13 a ubuntu version 12.04? is that ok?
09:47<@Alberth>quickly go now before it starts then :)
09:48<@Alberth>that's not 'generic linux' afaik
09:48<@Alberth>mapa-falsh: ^
09:48<mapa-falsh>???
09:49<wojteks86>I've never touched linux so cant really help, sorry
09:49<mapa-falsh>lol it works..... for now.... and i am happy with it
09:50<@planetmaker>mapa-falsh, get the generic linux binary. Unpack in a dir of your choice. Start the binary
09:50<mapa-falsh>btw thx a lot guyz
09:50*planetmaker is slow.
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09:50<mapa-falsh>planetmaker: i instaled it somehow and it is running... for now
09:50<@Alberth>mapa-falsh: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/generic_linux.png <-- Linux Generic Binary is above all Ubuntu binaries
09:51<@Alberth>mapa-falsh: you are running the right version?
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09:51<@Alberth>the title bar tells you
09:51<mapa-falsh>Alberth: dunno
09:51<kero>please, is there a way for a gamescript datas being preserved in a savegame ?
09:51<mapa-falsh>Alberth: atleast for now game is runing
09:51<kero>(or an alternative file, also)
09:52<mapa-falsh>thx guys
09:52<@Alberth>wojteks86: please consider whether you want to interface to eints or not. If not, that's fine too. If you have further questions just ask me
09:53<wojteks86>right, I need to get going, Alberth, thanks for your help and advise ;)
09:53<wojteks86>will do!
09:53<@Alberth>mapa-falsh: ok, if it works, that's ok then :)
09:53<wojteks86>much appreciated!
09:53<@Alberth>bye wojteks86
09:53<wojteks86>bye
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10:01<frosch123>kero: gamescripts can save and load whatever data they like to
10:01<@Alberth>andythenorth_: I pushed some language updates to firs
10:02*NGC3982 pushes Alberth.
10:02<@Alberth>I am very stable :)
10:02<kero>frosch123 : Interesting. Now I just need to figure out how :)
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10:03<@planetmaker>kero, you might want to refer to some existing one. I know it exists. But I don't know in which
10:03<frosch123>kero: http://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Save/Load
10:03<frosch123>you can also look at sillicon valley, nocargoal or various AIs for examples
10:05<kero>ok, great, i'll look at that
10:05<kero>planetmaker : actually, i'm already working on a made script, which I'm trying to improve
10:05<@planetmaker>:-) always a good start
10:06<kero>I calculate a mobile average, and I want to save the datas in case of reloading the game
10:06<frosch123>i like the table at the bottom of that wiki page
10:06<frosch123>it says "no" all throughout the "hardcode into ais" column :)
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10:07<frosch123>which is correct, but putting it into a table like that kind of stresses the point :)
10:09<kero>frosch123 : great, that's exactly what I was looking for
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10:19<RXShorty>Hello all :)
10:20<@Alberth>hi
10:20<RXShorty>I have a question about the dedicated server. I want to slow down the game speed, meaning it takes longer time for passing a year or so
10:20<RXShorty>Is this possible?
10:21<RXShorty>I have checked the openttd.cfg but can't find anything that is related to this setting. Am I correct?
10:21<@Alberth>yes
10:22<@Alberth>as in, you cannot set the speed
10:22<RXShorty>Pitty... found some servers online that did fix that somehow.
10:23<frosch123>you can pause the game when noone is playing
10:23<frosch123>as in no client connected
10:23<frosch123>but you cannot change the speed while people are playing
10:23<@Alberth>there are patches around that implement some form of it, but it's not in standard openttd
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10:24<RXShorty>ahh ok
10:25<@Alberth>note that your clients need the exact same version to play with
10:25<RXShorty>Ok yes we are using 1.2.3 atm
10:25<@Alberth>so you cannot run a patched server, and have clients connect with a normal version
10:25<RXShorty>Any idea where I can find such a patch?
10:26<RXShorty>Sorry for the many questions, but we have a few new players... ;)
10:28<@Alberth>no idea tbh, I'd start looking in the development section of the forums
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10:38<RXShorty>Will do thanks :)
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11:08<RXShorty>@Alberth found it here: http://miburl.com/85J2Io
11:08<@Alberth>oke
11:10<kero>Squirrel is maybee a nice language but it's very hard to find some learning tutorial about it
11:10<kero>does somebody has some documentation ?
11:10*Alberth ponders about "Advanced"ness of settings, in particular, as the difficulty settings are gone now
11:11*NGC3982 wonders about how squirrel linguistics works out.
11:12<@planetmaker>hm, Alberth :-) Sounds like a good point
11:15<frosch123>Alberth: once game options are gone, we can rename it just to settings :)
11:15<@Alberth>:)
11:16<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25072 /trunk/src (6 files in 2 dirs) (2013-03-09 16:16:17 UTC)
11:16<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Don't require the custom currency to be the last defined one
11:16<frosch123>anyway, i think "advanced" is a nice disclaimer
11:16<frosch123>for people to not look at them :p
11:20<@Alberth>luckily we have the advanced basic settings :)
11:21<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25073 trunk/src/currency.h (2013-03-09 16:21:47 UTC)
11:21<@DorpsGek>-Doc: Improve Currencies enum description
11:23<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25074 trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp (2013-03-09 16:23:22 UTC)
11:23<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup: Simplify currency selection code slightly
11:24<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25075 /trunk/src (3 files) (2013-03-09 16:24:43 UTC)
11:24<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Allow for more than 32 currencies
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11:32<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25076 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2013-03-09 16:31:56 UTC)
11:32<@DorpsGek>-Add [FS#5212]: Georgian Lari and Iranian Rial as currencies
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12:55<@planetmaker>good night
12:55<@Alberth>good night planetmaker
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13:07<Snail>good afternoon :)
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13:28<Ristovski>can you load a .sav in the scenario editor so you can edit the map?
13:29<frosch123>yes, just rename it to .scn
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13:29<Ristovski>frosch123: hmm this works too: "openttd -e -g name.sav"
13:29<frosch123>ok :)
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13:32<NGC3982>How can fast growth be achieved with OpenGFX+?
13:32<NGC3982>I have this diamon mine that never reached >40 bags :(
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25077 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2013-03-09 18:45:27 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>belarusian - 8 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 7 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>latvian - 3 changes by Parastais
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 2 changes by wojteks86
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15:17<andythenorth>did cirdan do the 'close airports' patch? o_O
15:18<andythenorth>that's my favourite feature in ages
15:22<@Alberth>it's a nice part of the puzzle :)
15:24*andythenorth has some...ideas
15:30<@Alberth>oh dear :)
15:31<@Alberth>hmm, loading stuff before starting the web server is useless :(
15:31<frosch123>this noon i coded a small hackish patch, which did what it should in most cases
15:31<frosch123>now i am trying to do it properly and run into dozen problems :p
15:32<frosch123>maybe i should publish the first hack on the forums and request inclusion from the devs
15:34<@Alberth>oh, it's me, forgot to add a 'global' declaration.
15:35<@Alberth>frosch123: but now you've already told the devs it's broken
15:36<frosch123>well, it is well-tested at least
15:36<frosch123>since when does the test result matter?
15:37<frosch123>i thought that's the usual way. medicine is well-tested in studies. food is under constant quality-observation. but noone asks about the results of the studies or tests :)
15:39<@Alberth>good point, I'd suggest to wait a little over three weeks
15:39-!-ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:40<andythenorth>idea numero uno: should buy menu show vehicle loading speed? Or is it a non-useful property?
15:40<MNIM>frosch123: but what does it do?
15:40<andythenorth>MNIM: it does whatever you want it to do :)
15:40<andythenorth>and some unexpected things too, from the sound of it
15:41<MNIM>I want it to do enhanced tunnels and signals in tunnels and bridges.
15:41<MNIM>betcha it doesn't do that
15:41<@Alberth>andythenorth: NUTS does, but I don't really take notice of it
15:42<@Alberth>MNIM: I am sure some hack-ish patches exist for that
15:42<MNIM>2CC trainset does, though some loading speeds are mildly silly, otherwise rather useful
15:43<MNIM>Alberth: I know of signals on bridges and tunnels but hackish is an understatement there, don't know about enhanced tunnels
15:44<@Alberth>signals on tunnels is not an enhancement?
15:45<andythenorth>ok idea numero duo: sometimes I want FIRS industries to show recent cargo deliveries and/or current production ratio
15:45<andythenorth>I could do that with text
15:45<andythenorth>or I could do it by drawing it into the ground tile, and then using invisble to look
15:46<andythenorth>neither of which requires a patch for ottd :)
15:46<andythenorth>or we could add 'recently delivered cargo' to ottd
15:48<Snail>two = due, not duo :)
15:49<andythenorth>"other languages are available" :)
15:51<@Alberth>can't you use the 'waiting to be processed' silly texts?
15:51<@Alberth>imho, adding fixed texts to openttd would be a bad idea
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15:59<andythenorth>there's not much I can do with those silly texts :)
16:00<andythenorth>although...I noticed recently, George has managed to customise them in ECS
16:00<andythenorth>I don't know how he's done that :o
16:02<andythenorth>maybe cargo subtype strings
16:03<andythenorth>hmm, ECS isn't GPL?
16:03<andythenorth>oh dear :(
16:04<@Alberth>no idea what its license is
16:07<andythenorth>there are some FIRS graphics in there from other people under GPL
16:07<andythenorth>I told ge*rge he can use my sprites, but that doesn't extend to other people :(
16:07<andythenorth>oops
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16:15<@Alberth>so technically, he is not obeying the license :p
16:15<andythenorth>technically
16:15<andythenorth>and I should chase that :(
16:15<andythenorth>also how do I get OpenTTD to persist settings?
16:15<andythenorth>it has always mystified me
16:16<andythenorth>I keep selecting 'GS: none' and every time I start the program, I have a GS selected again
16:16<@Alberth>set it from the main menu, and save
16:17<@Alberth>euhm, exit
16:17<andythenorth>I tried that
16:17<andythenorth>oh, I have to 'accept'? :o
16:17<@Alberth>possibly
16:17<andythenorth>oh
16:17<andythenorth>and 'accept' is so widely used elsewhere of course :P
16:18<andythenorth>and we always put the default button on the left too
16:18<andythenorth>except when we don't
16:18<@Alberth>if there is such a button, it does not hurt to try it :)
16:18<@Alberth>yeah, it's nicely consistent and so
16:18<andythenorth>yeah
16:18<andythenorth>wonderful
16:18<andythenorth>newgrf settings: apply (bottom right)
16:18<andythenorth>game options: no requirement to save
16:19<andythenorth>advanced options: no requirement to save
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16:19<andythenorth>load game: load is bottom right
16:19<@Alberth>we seem to nee a few 'ok' buttons near the top
16:19<andythenorth>GS: accept (bottom left)
16:19<@Alberth>*need
16:19<andythenorth>some dialogs save when closing, others have to be closed explicitly
16:20<@Alberth>hmm, sounds like a nice todo thingie
16:20<andythenorth>the GS / AI window sucks a bit
16:20<andythenorth>opens smaller than the others, and the layout is just meh
16:20<andythenorth>oh, and, of course, it has an explicit 'close' button
16:21<andythenorth>even though there is also the standard 'x' on the window :P
16:21<andythenorth>who made it? Am I hurting their feelings? :)
16:22<andythenorth>the mix of stateless and non-stateless stuff is one thing, the other thing is the lack of consistency in gui
16:22<andythenorth>Is the source code available? o_O
16:23<frosch123>andythenorth: blame tb :)
16:23<andythenorth>I do :)
16:23<andythenorth>for most things
16:25<andythenorth>ho ho, I just found FIRS 0.1.0 in my grf list
16:25<andythenorth>what does that look like? o_O
16:26<V453000>:D
16:27<andythenorth>yeah, it's about the same
16:27<andythenorth>not much changed
16:27<frosch123>i am quite sure it does not work in ottd 0.1.0
16:28<andythenorth>@calc 3430-751
16:28<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 2679
16:28<andythenorth>only a few changes since 0.1.0
16:29<andythenorth>hardly worth the effort afaict :P
16:29<frosch123>maybe you should look in the middle?
16:29<frosch123>0.5.0 or so
16:29<frosch123>maybe you added lots of stuff and then reverted it again :p
16:30<andythenorth>that does seem to be the case
16:30<andythenorth>also redrew nearly everything
16:30<andythenorth>and ported the code about 4 times
16:30<frosch123>if 0.5.0 has most, maybe 1.0.0 should be an empty grf?
16:30<frosch123>bug free
16:30<andythenorth>interesting idea
16:30<andythenorth>I'll consider it :)
16:30<andythenorth>when will vehicle 'views' be done?
16:31<andythenorth>and what are they? oO
16:31<frosch123>the end of the world maybe
16:31<frosch123>i think that term is currently available
16:31<frosch123>i am not aware of anyone having proclaimed it again lately
16:32<andythenorth>oh yes
16:32<andythenorth>I knew there was something to worry about it
16:32<andythenorth>not having the end of the world to worry about does worry me
16:33<frosch123>yeah, when is the next end of the world?
16:33*frosch123 likes using "next" in that context
16:34<andythenorth>n
16:35<andythenorth>n+1
16:35<andythenorth>so the thing about views
16:35<andythenorth>in Squid / FISH / whatever it's called
16:36<andythenorth>I randomise the graphics for each ship model a bit
16:36<andythenorth>which is going to cause confused players
16:36<andythenorth>"I built a ship and it looks different"
16:38<@Alberth>opengfx+ does that too with wagons
16:39<@Alberth>it changes colours and appearance
16:39<@Alberth>it's nice for displaying in the game world, but somewhat confusing in the buy menu
16:39<andythenorth>yes
16:40<andythenorth>it's a nice feature - I'm going to keep it....I just know it will have this side effect :)
16:41<@Alberth>if you know it works that way, it's not a problem
16:41<frosch123>i would hope that would also happen irl
16:41<frosch123>like buying a cheap car and it turns out to be a sports car
16:41<@Alberth>does that ever happen? :)
16:42<frosch123>well, with sports cars all kind things happen
16:43<frosch123>like a maelstrom appearing inside the fuel tank when accelerating
16:44<@Alberth>1 liter every 400m ? :) Cruise ships do that
16:44<V453000>NUTS express wagons look almost never the same as they do in the purchase menu :P
16:44<@Alberth>tanks are also horrible :)
16:45<V453000>well they do if they are not attached to stuff
16:45<frosch123>otoh nuts pax wagon look the same even when refitting to different colour :p
16:45<@Alberth>V453000: but the choice in wagons is fairly limited, which makes life a lot easier
16:45*andythenorth has rebalanced Squid
16:45<andythenorth>joy
16:45<V453000>true :D
16:47<@Alberth>I like your unlimited cargo teleport idea :) I used a instant-win button, but your idea is much better
16:47<andythenorth>the problem with newgrfs is....play testings
16:47<V453000>:D
16:48<V453000>I felt like instant win button wasnt descriptive enough :P
16:48<@Alberth>andythenorth: yeah, in particular when OpenTTD sabotages your nice RV feeder
16:49<andythenorth>:P
16:50<andythenorth>if no grf was ever played, there would be a lot more 1.0 versions :P
16:53<@Alberth>I started playing with the FIRS station rating, and I found it has a HUGE impact compared to OpenTTD rating, even if you have an engine constantly loading
16:54<andythenorth>yes it does :)
16:54<@Alberth>you only need a few industries to push production into the thousands of goods
16:54<andythenorth>yes
16:54<andythenorth>it's probably too generous
16:54<andythenorth>but I like it :)
16:57<@Alberth>I can't beat that argument :)
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17:00<andythenorth>I need a web translator app for FISH
17:00<andythenorth>maintaining strings is boring
17:00<andythenorth>Alberth: here's a case I don't see in the design (yet) :)
17:00<andythenorth>I delete a string
17:00<andythenorth>it needs removing from all lang files
17:00<andythenorth>we could do that right?
17:01<@Alberth>it does already :)
17:01<andythenorth>oh
17:01<@Alberth>just upload a new base language version
17:01<andythenorth>I missed that :o
17:02<andythenorth>awesome
17:02<andythenorth>we should finish it :P
17:02<andythenorth>I got distracted by boats
17:02<@Alberth>I got distracted by FreeRCT :)
17:03<@Alberth>did we decide something about managing access of translators to the files?
17:04<andythenorth>no
17:04<@Alberth>I invented a project-owner that controls who can translate languages in his/her project
17:06<@Alberth>ie person X and Y may change strings in language ab_CD
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17:06<@Alberth>in a projec
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17:06<andythenorth>makes sense
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17:07<andythenorth>so access control list
17:07<@Alberth>is that how it's called? :)
17:07<@Alberth>I also invented a syntax for configuring eints
17:08<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_control_list
17:08<andythenorth>the python frameworks have varying degrees of ACL
17:08<andythenorth>from 'none' to 'every single object lookup has a permission check'
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17:09<@Alberth>I just need to actually create a project owner field somewhere, and a list translators for a language in a projevt
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17:12<@Alberth>should we add web pages to set these, or is some file sufficient (where the system administrator of the site can make changes)
17:12<andythenorth>file for now
17:12<@Alberth>k
17:12<andythenorth>file means SSH access to the place the thing is running
17:13<andythenorth>delegate the security to that
17:13<andythenorth>securing our own web-thing to add add project owners is more of a headache
17:13*Alberth nods
17:16<@Alberth>good night
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17:18<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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17:40<frogzilla>Hey guys. I'm trying to run a dedicated server on Ubuntu linux with openttd -D but I get an error: "could not bind on IPv4 port [xxx] (IPv4): Cannot assign requested address". Any ideas?
17:43<MNIM>a quick google suggests checking your firewall, assuming if you haven't already done so
17:44<frogzilla>Google is my friend but I have no experience with linux at all so I was hoping for a more tailored answer from the experts.
17:45<frogzilla>I just shut down the entire firewall and I'm now trying again.
17:47<frogzilla>No effect.
17:48<+michi_cc>First answer on http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1306590 maybe?
17:50<KenjiE20>if it can't bind a port, it tends to mean that the port is used, not that the firewall is blocking
17:52<frogzilla>I tried different ports. It's a clean install so nothing else should be running. /etc/network/interfaces shows auto for eth0 and ifconfig shows it gets a local IP address from the router. The modem forwards all traffic to the local IP 192.168.178.32 (linux server). It works on Windows (running a server and 'advertising' it in the list).
17:52<kero>use nestat -lapute to watch if the port is being used
17:52<kero>what kind of ports did you try ?
17:54<frogzilla>netstat -lapute shows only one port 7569 in use by dhclient3.
17:55<frogzilla>I tried the default (4938) and one I found in an internet forum (3978)
17:56<frogzilla>I also tried with no port parameter
17:56<kero>did you try as root ?
17:56<frogzilla>I am root, yes.
17:57<KenjiE20>@ports
17:57<@DorpsGek>KenjiE20: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
17:57<KenjiE20>where'd 4938 com from?
17:57<KenjiE20>come*
17:58<frogzilla>4938 came from here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=37879. I guess it's a random port he tried but I thought I might as well try it too.
17:59<KenjiE20>fair enough
17:59<KenjiE20>does dbg [net] show ant n) xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx lines for you?
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18:03<frogzilla>No command 'dbg' found, did you mean dbd, dig, kdbg, dlg or dfbg
18:04<KenjiE20>in openttd's log
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18:05<frogzilla>Where can I find that?
18:06<frogzilla>I'd expect to find it in /root/openttd, but there seems to be no log there
18:06<KenjiE20>iirc it normally outputs to the console
18:10<frogzilla>It goes too fast. I tried writing it to a file using > debug.txt but it only shows 'ERROR: Could not start server'
18:11<KenjiE20>could probably use the less/more tools to page it
18:14<frogzilla>I tried that as well. It doesn't work.
18:14<frogzilla>It just shoots by at lightningspeed.
18:15<KenjiE20>ssh'ing or working directly?
18:15<KenjiE20>ah wait, you said was only one server up, so directly
18:15<KenjiE20>derp
18:16<KenjiE20>try shift-pgup/dn?
18:18<xQR>is there anyway to completely disable (display of) chat in multiplayer?
18:18<frogzilla>It's a virtual machine. You can SSH if you like, there is not much you could destroy.
18:19<frogzilla>I can now scroll. Thank you.
18:19<xQR>i set network_chat_timeout = 1 so that it disappears after a second and made network_chat_box_* as small as possible but is there a way to completely get rid of the chat?
18:20<frogzilla>There is no line that looks like dbg [net] show ant n) xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
18:21<KenjiE20>hmm
18:22<KenjiE20>this makes me think either a) the vm hasn't got/loaded any ethernet adapters, or b) the build of openttd doesn't see it, probably a
18:22<frogzilla>I can apt-get stuff and I used lynx to surf the web. It has a local IP address and internet. What more does it need?
18:23<KenjiE20>hm
18:23<frogzilla>I explicitly selected the option to 'bridge network' so it would get its own IP and I could use port forwarding on the modem to this device. Exactly how I do it on Windows and there it works.
18:25<KenjiE20>well if there's no dbg [net] number and ip lines in the log, that means openttd isn't seeing the adapter
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18:27<frogzilla>"dbg: [net] could not bind on IPv4 port 192.168.1.32:3979 (IPv4): Cannot assign requested address"
18:27<frogzilla>That is its local IP. OpenTTD gets it from somewhere
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18:32<xQR>if you want it to bind to a different IP just tell OpenTTD in the config
18:32<xQR>there is a [server_bind_addresses] section in openttd.cfg for that
18:32<KenjiE20>he's tried other ports
18:32<Supercheese>Version 2.0 thread troll-y as usual
18:32<@Terkhen>good night
18:34<KenjiE20>though really the only thing I can think of is /something/ is sat on that port =/
18:34<xQR>that's usually the reason for this error, yes
18:35<KenjiE20>oh a xQR akaict there's no disable for the chat
18:35<KenjiE20>afaict*
18:35<xQR>:/
18:36<xQR>frogzilla try "netstat -tulpn | grep :3979"
18:36<xQR>should show you whether something is listening on that port
18:36<xQR>maybe an openttd instance of an earlier test that has crashed and is still blocking the port?
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18:38<frogzilla>It shows no output
18:39<frogzilla>I restarted the virtual machine several times as well, thereby making it unlikely that a previous version is bothering us.
18:39<xQR>then something is wrong with the IP address it tries to bind to
18:40<KenjiE20>hmm, you said the modem is forwarding to 192.168.178.32, yet openttd is binding to 192.168.1.32?
18:40<frogzilla>That is a little detail I missed but it's most likely the cause of the problem
18:41<xQR>so we are back to
18:41<xQR>[00:32:34] • ¦xQR¦ there is a [server_bind_addresses] section in openttd.cfg for that
18:41<KenjiE20>wrong ip on the vm could be it
18:41<xQR>in that section add the line: 192.168.178.32 =
18:42<frogzilla>I restarted it. Now it is 192.178.178.35try your solution
18:42<KenjiE20>it defaults to 0.0.0.0, so unless you already went in and edited that.....
18:43<KenjiE20>or empty
18:45<frogzilla>That fixed part of the problem. It somehow took 169.168.1.32. Changed it to 169.168.178.35 and now it starts. It still doesn't advertise though.
18:46<KenjiE20>@ports
18:46<@DorpsGek>KenjiE20: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
18:46<KenjiE20>that needs to other port forwarded
18:46<KenjiE20>and the advertise setting in cfg, which I think is defaulted on
18:47<xQR>server_advertise = true
18:49<frogzilla>Hell yeah! We're online!
18:49<xQR>gz
18:49<KenjiE20>glad it's sorted
18:50<frogzilla>advertise setting was off by default. Changed to true and now it works.
18:50<KenjiE20>been a while since I looked at a default cfg :p
18:50<xQR>i was unsure about that too, next time i know ;)
18:51<frogzilla>Thanks a lot. I now see these 'queried from xx.xx.xxx.xxx' coming by so I guess some people can see it.
18:51<KenjiE20>yup
18:52<xQR>but it makes sense if you think about it, someone starting his server the first time rarely already has it perfectly configured, he is more likely still doing a lot of testing and his server will go up and down
18:52<frogzilla>Now to update the server. It is 1.1.4 and the client is 1.2.3.
18:52<xQR>not a good idea to have advertising activated right from the start
18:52<KenjiE20>true
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18:52<xQR>so it should be an active decision of an administrator to enable it
18:52<frogzilla>Yup. Sounds reasonable. But that was essential to test because if it doesn't it makes no sense in trying further.
18:53<xQR>yeah, server would be pointless if nobody can reach it ;)
18:53<KenjiE20>well...
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18:56<frogzilla>Should I download the newest version from openttd.org and install it? apt-get doesn't have a newer version than 1.1.4.
18:57<xQR>yes you should, otherwise your server won't find many players
18:58<xQR>the website has ubuntu packages
18:58<xQR>so the update should be easy
19:00<xQR>i don't know about ubuntu but on debian i just do "dpkg -i openttdinstallfile.deb"
19:00<frogzilla>For a noob like me it was quite a challenge getting this far but I'm committed. I want to experiment with the autopilot thing to create a goal server.
19:00<xQR>quite simple
19:00<KenjiE20>haha
19:00<KenjiE20>glhf
19:00<xQR>i would be surprised if it would be any harder on ubuntu
19:01<xQR>google tells me it should work the same on ubuntu
19:01<xQR>also there should be no need to uninstall the previous packet you got from apt-get
19:01<xQR>the system should detect that the package already exists and upgrade it
19:01<xQR>again, i can only speak for debian
19:02<xQR>is there an autopilot script that provides goal features by now?
19:03<KenjiE20>goal stuff is all grfs I think, and a bit of a minefield last I heard
19:03<xQR>i think it was 3 or 4 years ago when it didn't, so i wrote those features into the autopilot scripts manually and it was a pain
19:04<xQR>especially because i am not a big fan of TCL :P
19:04<xQR>this language is just too messy
19:04<+michi_cc>Write a game script instead and you can have fun with squirrel (and something that really works and isn't just one big hack).
19:05<frogzilla>As far as I know there is no goal-script available yet and that frustrates me. Currently BtPro and Novapolis seem to have a 'monopoly' on those scripts.
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19:05<frogzilla>I am not really good at Linux but I can write code, so I hope I can contribute to the community a little.
19:06<xQR>well after i figured autopilot isn't the way to do it i started my own project i call xShunter
19:07<xQR>which is what the n-ice.org and BTPro servers are using
19:07<xQR>Novapolis on the other hand uses a mixture of server patches and newgrfs (and i think now they started to additionally use GameScripts)
19:08<xQR>if you want to use xShunter we can do that, send me a mail to xor@x-base.org about it
19:08<xQR>but first you should finish the basic setup ;)
19:10<frogzilla>Ah, nice. I will contact you as soon as I'm ready to get started.
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19:17<xQR>http://www.x-base.org/xshunter.html basic info and http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/forum/index.php?topic=176.0 has some implementation details
19:17<xQR>it's not exactly simple :P
19:21<Wolf01>'night
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19:26<frogzilla>You can say that again. But it looks like the really hard work was done by you. All I would have to do is use your framework to extract data from the server and add the actual goals.
19:27<xQR>depends on how much you want to differ from the existing servers, because xShunter is shipped with a GoalSystem plug-in already
19:27<xQR>if you want to have goals by performance rating, company value or a mixture it's already in there
19:27<xQR>it comes with 14 plug-ins or so and they are all provided in source code (C#) so you could also modify them to your needs
19:29<xQR>you can even modify plug-in source code at runtime and reload it without having to restart anything ;)
19:30<xQR>but i don't think that's the right channel to discuss it, if you want to chat about it come to irc.x-base.org:6668 #OpenTTD.Chat - there you also find admins of n-ice, BTPro, Vulturis, Novapolis and others to chat with
19:31<frogzilla>The geek chat for the people that make OpenTTD fun. I'll join once I am ready to contribute. Right now I'm experimenting with my linux install to get started.
19:31<xQR>sure ;)
19:32<xQR>but don't be unfair, OpenTTD vanilla is also fun and none of our additions would make sense without the great basic OpenTTD server ;)
19:33<frogzilla>Agreed. But the reason I can't stop playing is because so many people added new stuff to the basic game.
19:33<xQR>and many of the addon features shouldn't be in the vanilla server anyway, e.g. IRC server connections or achievements are really specific things
19:34<xQR>my greatest hope for the basic game is that more GameScript features are added, one thing i am waiting for the most is: http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/GS_Area_Control
19:34<xQR>our CityBuilder script would benefit from that a lot
19:35<xQR>right now we cannot prevent players from building in certain areas, so to realize protected areas (around a claimed city) we do an ugly hack to simply revert all actions a player does there
19:35<xQR>so if he built a piece of rail we force him to remove it right after
19:35<xQR>but as you can imagine such a solution can never become really stable
19:35<xQR>it's more like a 90% solution
19:37<frogzilla>I understand what you mean.
19:38<frogzilla>It works but it's not how it should be.
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19:38<xQR>yep
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19:39<xQR>and of course there is no way to revert it if a player destroyed a house in the city - the only thing we can do is punish him (1st time warning and move to spectators, 2nd time kick, 3rd time ban)
19:40<xQR>so it's nothing but a workaround right now, we would really need area protection features provided by OpenTTD itself to do it properly
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19:44<frogzilla>I never thought about that but it would really suck if someone destroys your town in city builder.
19:46<xQR>definitely
19:47<V453000>I can imagine that discipline is a massive issue on servers where players change quickly
19:49<xQR>not more or less than any other griefer action
19:50<V453000>well yeah sure but if you have majority of veteran players then you dont get those :P
19:50<xQR>actually i think i see it rarely compared to people who run a a road vehicle crash train
19:50<V453000>:D
19:50<V453000>I dont remember the last time I saw any sabotage on our server
19:50<xQR>or reserve land in front of where another player is currently building
19:50<xQR>and such nasty things
19:51<V453000>I know what you mean
19:52<V453000>using newGRFs and stuff is the first step to get rid of those people usually :)
19:52<xQR>unfortunately it is also the first step to get rid of many "normal" players too
19:52<frogzilla>I just updated the server to the newest version. Just wanted to share that.
19:53<xQR>downloading through OpenTTD has become very simple, but many players aren't aware of those servers with a yellow dot that are sorted down in the list
19:53<V453000>players who cant click "check content" arent normal
19:53<xQR>yeah but they don't scroll down far enough in the first place
19:53<frogzilla>Yeah. I love how BtPro keeps their servers newGRF free. NewGRFs are fun, but make same too unpredictable for inexperienced players.
19:53<xQR>why should they bother, when there are so many "green" servers?
19:53<xQR>yeah same reason for n-ice servers
19:54<xQR>http://www.n-ice.org/openttd/charts/stats_communities_big.png
19:54<xQR>it's also the reason why these servers have a lot players
19:54<xQR>of course it also means many newbies are playing there
19:54<xQR>but that isn't a bad thing imho, i got a heart for newbies <3
19:55<V453000>hm, I would much rather have 10 people with brainz than 100 without :)
19:55<xQR>but it's not easy to accumulate those 10 players with brainz on your server
19:56<V453000>it is if you care about the server well :)
19:57<frogzilla>xQR, I just joined irc.x-base.org #openttd.chat. Want to talk about xShunter?
19:57<xQR>yeah i see you :)
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20:52<matt_d>afternoon
20:58<matt_d>just got ottd working on my mac <3 you guys rock for making this work
20:59<Snail>happy you like it
20:59<@planetmaker>:-)
21:13<matt_d>lol, trying to remeber signal setups. oh dear. what does mr sawyer think of your project?
21:15<@planetmaker>not much
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22:09<matt_d>so, as a stupid question, what's left to do with openttd? and what are you guys working on next?
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22:23<Snail>matt_d: check the forums to have an idea of what's going on
22:23<matt_d>yeah ive just been reading the wiki
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 10 00:00:21 2013