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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-03-10

---Logopened Sun Mar 10 00:00:21 2013
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03:07<andythenorth>Pikka ponk
03:07<Pikka>does it
03:08<andythenorth>only on wednesdays
03:08<andythenorth>have you done it yet?
03:08<andythenorth>I need a new trainset
03:09<Pikka>not quite
03:09*andythenorth not doing annoying at all
03:09<Pikka>getting there
03:09<andythenorth>like British Rail
03:09<Pikka>yes
03:09<Pikka>want to draw wagons for me?
03:10<andythenorth>hmm
03:10<andythenorth>I would have said no
03:10<andythenorth>but I think I'll say yes
03:10<andythenorth>get V453000 to do it too
03:10<Pikka>you have definitely identified the options there
03:10<andythenorth>I could have just not answered :P
03:10<andythenorth>schrodinganswer
03:10<Pikka>true
03:10<andythenorth>what do you need?
03:11<Pikka>all the wagons :P
03:11<Pikka>so basically, anything you like
03:11<Pikka>within set parameters
03:12<andythenorth>I'd better have a template I guess
03:12<andythenorth>and a list :P
03:12<Pikka>you gotta have a template or two, jim
03:17<andythenorth>biab
03:22<Pikka>k
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03:29<Pikka>hasta la forum pm, andythenorth
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03:43<andythenorth>k got those
03:43<andythenorth>will bbl, children-ish things to do today
03:44<andythenorth>Pikka: this is how all grfs sprites should have always looked imo
03:44<andythenorth>not that I'm being absolutist or anything
03:45<Pikka>of course not
03:45<Pikka>have fun with the children-ish things
03:47-!-Varazir [~mircwars@c-94-255-130-176.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #openttd
03:48<Varazir>Hello How to I get min min proffit ?
03:51<__ln__>and in english?
03:52<Varazir>ops
03:52-!-Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
03:52-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
03:53<@Alberth>moin
03:53<SpComb>http://sarien.net/theblackcauldron
03:53<Varazir>sorry, I have the game in swedish so I have to try to translate :P well problem is that I have played thrue the game 2 times now and only get 900 points du to minimal profit are 0
03:58<@Alberth>oh, you're playing for getting maximal Performance Rating ?
03:58<Varazir>yes
03:59<Varazir>everything ells is at 100
03:59<@Alberth>you have read the tooltip explaining what the rating expresses?
03:59<Varazir>I have like 8KKK right now year 2001
04:00<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Detailed_Performance_Rating
04:00<Varazir>thanks
04:00<@Alberth>that rating seems to be about income of individual vehicles
04:01<@Alberth>if you have 1 vehicle with 0 income, that rating is 0
04:01<@Alberth>I never played for max rating :)
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04:04<andythenorth>Pikka: ho, the base wagons make this easier ;)
04:04<andythenorth>I overlooked those earlier
04:10<Supercheese>good night
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04:36<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:46<@Alberth>mornink
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06:08<@planetmaker>moin
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06:13<frosch123>moin pm :)
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06:20<@planetmaker>so... where are plural forms defined... I probably just don't see them in strgen/* ?
06:20<@planetmaker>hm, tables of course
06:24<frosch123>"strgen -export-plurals" is easiest way
06:24<frosch123>unless you want to add a new one :)
06:24<@planetmaker>^^ that. For scottish gaelic. It doesn't fit yet our schemes
06:24<frosch123>so tables/bla and strings.cpp
06:25<frosch123>what archaic form does it use though?
06:25<frosch123>i thought we already had all thinkable ones :)
06:25<@planetmaker>(1,11), (2,12), (3..19), (other)
06:25<@planetmaker>ehm... (3..10,13..19)
06:26<frosch123>repeated every hundreds?
06:26<@planetmaker>I'm not 100% sure, but I understand not repeated
06:26<@planetmaker>the translator gives me http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/l10n/pluralforms#g as correct
06:27<frosch123>wow, what site is that :o
06:27<@planetmaker>didn't know it before either. But ... interesting :-)
06:29<@planetmaker>but maybe interesting for Alberth as well
06:31<@Alberth>somewhat :)
06:32-!-Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
06:33<@planetmaker>We have that e-mail request for a month or so already... but I didn't yet look at the site thoroughly before...
06:34<frosch123>well, i was looking for a site like that half a year ago
06:34<frosch123>now i can confirm that latvian is correct in ottd :)
06:35<@Alberth>phew :)
06:35<frosch123>the special thing about that page is that it gives the plural forms an order
06:35<frosch123>like, most languages put special cases at the front, and the general case at the end
06:35<frosch123>but latvian has "1,21,31,..." "other" "0"
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06:35<frosch123>i.e. the general case in the middle
06:38<@Alberth>ha, eints is smarter than me :p
06:38<@planetmaker>:D
06:40<@Alberth>It throws me out because I made an error in the access rights :)
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06:46<@planetmaker>so... like http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/index.php?source=add_strgen_scottish_gaelic.diff suffices?
06:46<@planetmaker>(and of course the appropriate change in the lang file)
06:46<@Alberth>wt3 too
06:47<@planetmaker>what does wt3 need other than the plural form in strgen and the lang file?
06:47<@planetmaker>manual update?
06:48<@Alberth>oh, perhaps it does work, I am confused with NML
06:49<@planetmaker>oh, you might well be right there...
06:49<frosch123>planetmaker: it needs someone to compile strgen on the server and install it into wt3
06:49<@planetmaker>so Alberth is right :-)
06:50<frosch123>planetmaker: you use more "special case" in the description than for other forms
06:52<@planetmaker>maybe better that way?
06:52<@planetmaker>(updated)
06:54<@planetmaker>and... would it be safe to commit - or wait till someone's here who can update strgen on CF?
06:55<frosch123>i think "Four forms: special cases for 1 and 11, 2 and 12, and 3..19." would match the other descriptions
06:56<frosch123>i guess committing gaelic.txt is not safe
06:56<frosch123>committing strings and strgen_tables is a prerequisite for updating wt3
06:56<@planetmaker>no translation update done to scottish gaelic today
06:56<frosch123>i would think gaelic can only be updated after wt3 update
06:56<@planetmaker>so you recommend two? Ok
06:56<frosch123>planetmaker: but what would wt3 do with a plural form it does not know about?
06:57<@planetmaker>ErrBuggerOff or so ;-)
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07:01*Alberth expects ErrCrash, tbh
07:02<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25078 /trunk/src (strings.cpp table/strgen_tables.h) (2013-03-10 11:02:11 UTC)
07:02<@DorpsGek>-Add: New plural form to be used by Scottish Gaelic (1,11; 2,12; 3..10, 13..19; other)
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>there are the weirdest languages out there :p
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07:09<frosch123>i like the forms which follow the one - few - many rule :)
07:09<@planetmaker>yeah, that's a counting scheme which I feel is nice
07:09<@planetmaker>one, two, many is easy :-P
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07:11<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know... somehow the quieter the computer gets, the more every tiny sound annoys me
07:11<frosch123>your music is not loud anough
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>i know. but amarok always screws up horribly whenever i move my music collection to another disk
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07:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25079 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/gaelic.txt (2013-03-10 11:30:12 UTC)
07:30<@DorpsGek>-Feature-ish: Use the new, correct plural form in the Scottish Gaelic translation, now that WT3 is updated with that knowledge
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08:35<andythenorth>Pikka I am considering trucks that get slower in the 80s
08:35<andythenorth>due to speed limiters :P
08:35*andythenorth is old enough to remember motorways with wall-to-wall trucks in every lane, at 80mph+
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08:38<@Alberth>stupid realism trickery :p
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08:57<kero>well at some degrees, OpenTTD also includes some degree of realism
08:57<kero>if not, why use trains, trams, buses inspired from real life ? :)
08:58<kero>the point, I think, is not realism or not, it is more, what degree of realism
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09:03<@Alberth>realism is definitely a source of inspiration, but realism is not a reason to do or not do something; it has to make sense from a game perspective, ie be fun to play with
09:04<@Alberth>and having obstacles is often good, as it forces the player to think a way around them
09:06<kero>That's true. That's why I speak about "challenges" in the post where I answer to V453000.
09:07<kero>But the "funnyness" of a limitation depends of each's gameplay style.
09:09<kero>PBS also removed a limitation, making it easier to build junction and terminal station, and a lot of other things (and for those who aim to realism, making it more realistic). But nobody considers it perverted the gameplay.
09:10<@Alberth>but OpenTTD does not claim to support every possible play style
09:10<kero>Sure, and it couldn't.
09:10<@Alberth>Signals are too difficult for many
09:10<@Alberth>if you see how much new users struggle with them
09:10<kero>But the discussion with V453000 comes from as he presents as "normal" gameplay what is just its gameplay.
09:11<@Alberth>everybody thinks his way of playing is the only style :)
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09:12<kero>Actually, no. Some are smart enough to see that they defend a gameplay which is only theirs :)
09:12<@Alberth>and thus OpenTTD should fully support that style :)
09:12<@Alberth>hi andy
09:12<kero>Anyway ...
09:13<andythenorth>lo
09:14<@Alberth>I wrote a little configuration doc, where you should add the other packages that we use, I think
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09:18<Pikka>andythenorth, I don't imagine olden-day trucks doing 80mph were very heavily laden
09:18<Pikka>ye olde truke
09:19<Pikka>so in openttd terms, probably better not to have them that fast :]
09:20<frosch123>maybe you can build your private off-track next to the highway
09:20<frosch123>and let your heqs overtake the trucks at 100 mph
09:20<frosch123>andythenorth: heqs needs faster vehicles :p
09:22<Pikka>unless you're going to enforce "realistic" acceleration parameters, so in theory your trucks can do 80 but in practice they're chugging along at 35 :)
09:22<frosch123>what about downhill?
09:23<Pikka>only if they can roll over on the corner at the bottom
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09:23<frosch123>is that a problem of the truck? or of the people passing at the bottom?
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09:29<Pikka>I don't know, frosch123
09:29<Pikka>btw andy, best movie ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8qFD2s0Fwg
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10:02<andythenorth>Pikka: +1 I saw that years ago, on an afternoon when I should have been in school
10:02*andythenorth didn't go to school much
10:02<andythenorth>boring
10:02<andythenorth>Pikka: 2nd best http://www.imdb.co.uk/title/tt0046268/
10:03<V453000>who is PinkOboe?
10:03<V453000>he seems to talk sense
10:04<andythenorth>who do you think it is?
10:04<andythenorth>he is far away, but at the same time, nearby
10:05<andythenorth>also wtf, the best movie ever is actually this http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076729/
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10:24<V453000>dono :)
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10:33<V453000>CREATIVITY CONTEST!
10:33<V453000>what would you use as overlay at https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/mayhem.png
10:33<V453000>currently only the dark blue lines
10:34<V453000>winner wins Nutjob Award March 2013
10:34<V453000>question is how to illustrate the directions of the rail junctions
10:35<V453000>first entry - unicorns, second entry - beer, third entry - ???
10:44<frosch123>simcity2000 always ends the same for me
10:45<V453000>unicorns<
10:45<frosch123>i have no idea how i should get the funds to rebuild the powerplant after 50 years
10:45<V453000>?
10:48<frosch123>and it lacks an undo know
10:48<frosch123>the terraforming tool is totally crap :s
10:55<frosch123>V453000: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/mayhem2.png <- light colours look nice than dark lines
10:56<frosch123>also make them use the light water cycle, so it looks like spray
10:56<V453000>nice idea
10:56<frosch123>like the fish ships do
10:56<V453000>I think animated colours would look weird there
10:56<frosch123>is the water not animated?
10:56<V453000>the water is
10:56<frosch123>well, you have two water anim cycles
10:56<frosch123>one dark, one light
10:56<V453000>I know
10:58<frosch123>btw. a horse and a cow do not average to two unicorns
11:04<andythenorth>ugh
11:05<andythenorth>Squid needs to say 'units of livestock' not 't' for refit strings :(
11:11<V453000>WTF frosch123 ? :D
11:12<frosch123>just in case you want to trick me
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11:13<V453000>point taken :D
11:13<V453000>I have to think about this
11:18<andythenorth>V453000: nice riverbanks :)
11:19<V453000>:)
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11:39<V453000>mygod
11:39<V453000>why do 2 of the 4 animated bright water colours look the same
11:39<V453000>._.
11:39<V453000>I mean more like 2 pairs of 2
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11:47<Pikka>V453000: This then was the enigma. Who was Eccles?
11:50<V453000>what do you mean?
11:53<Pikka>it's hard to tell
11:54<Pikka>I should go to bed or something
11:54<V453000>:D
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12:34<NGC3982>My computer is way to slow (or broken) for Sim City 5.
12:34<NGC3982>It's a workstation laptop with a core2duo CPU. I still wish to play some older Sim City version. Got tip'?
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12:47<+michi_cc>NGC3982: 4 of course.
12:47<NGC3982>Good, since that is what i am installing right now.
12:49<+michi_cc>Hopefully with Rush Hour extension (or Deluxe).
12:49<NGC3982>:O
12:51<+michi_cc>And the must-have mod: http://www.moddb.com/mods/network-addon-mod (the very latest NAM isn't yet on this site for download, but I don't know a link without registering for that).
12:54<NGC3982>oh, ok
12:55<@peter1138>http://www.bbcmicrogames.com/screenshots/simcity.gif
12:55<@peter1138>that's the version you want
12:57<V453000>LOL
12:57<V453000>10/10
13:05<frosch123>what's in the bottom right?
13:05<frosch123>a tyrannosaurus?
13:07<@peter1138>yeah
13:07<@peter1138>disasters :)
13:13<@Alberth>peter1138: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/Micropolis_-_big_city.png
13:13<@peter1138>yup
13:14<@Alberth>you can play it at http://micropolisonline.com/ apparently
13:14<@peter1138>had it installed anyay
13:14<@peter1138>*anyway
13:15<@Alberth>the original with airplane crash and godzilla? :)
13:15<@Alberth>they removed those in Micropolis :(
13:15<@peter1138>i had a plane crash
13:15<@peter1138>just now
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13:15<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
13:16<Wolf01>hello :D
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13:53<NGC3982>michi_cc: I don't understand how i loan money.
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25080 /trunk/src/lang (6 files in 2 dirs) (2013-03-10 18:45:35 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<@DorpsGek>croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
14:45<@DorpsGek>german - 3 changes by planetmaker
14:45<@DorpsGek>italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
14:45<@DorpsGek>romanian - 9 changes by mariush
14:45<@DorpsGek>gaelic - 1 changes by planetmaker
14:45<@DorpsGek>welsh - 28 changes by kazzie
14:55<kero>Maybee somebody can explain me what is wrong with this squirrel code ? : "table <- { town.id=town.TownGrowthRate };" I have an error where it says "expected '='
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15:08<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you meant ==?
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>(i don't know squirrel that well)
15:09<kero>no, I wanted to attribute the values to the table. But I found how to do it
15:09<kero>Would be easier if that language was a little better documented ... It's a pain to understand how it works.
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15:13<__ln__>https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7117482240/hACB3734D/
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's an easy question to refresh your entry level calculus knowledge :)
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15:23<andythenorth>hmm
15:23<andythenorth>the 2.0 thread runs on and on
15:23<andythenorth>well it's nice that people care
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>threads tend to do that
15:24<fonsinchen>I won't comment on the cargodist thread now ...
15:28*fonsinchen should lower the defaults for linkgraph recalc interval and linkgraph recalc time
15:29<fonsinchen>No one has such big link graphs it seems.
15:30<@planetmaker>so far ;-)
15:36<fonsinchen>I'm just running some coop games from the public server archive with 2 days interval and 1 day time (i.e. minimum settings). No problem so far.
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think games made without cargodist are a good test
15:43<Kitty>hey
15:43<fonsinchen>true
15:43<Kitty>can anyone recommend a 3 way junction for 4 tracks ?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>Kitty: what do you need so many tracks for?
15:44<Kitty>capacity
15:45<@planetmaker>Kitty, there's no standard for that size anymore really, if you mean 4 tracks per direction
15:45<Kitty>no
15:45<Kitty>4 tracks total
15:45<@planetmaker>basically scale up a 2-tracked version, though
15:45<Kitty>as in
15:45<Kitty>2 tracks in each direction, and 3 sets of 2 tracks in each direction...
15:46<andythenorth>ships
15:46<@planetmaker>oh, so just a "normal" coop junction ;-) Have a look at our savegame archive or the junctionary http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>i'd usually run two parallel double track lines instead of a four-track-line, if capacity is really at its limits
15:46<@planetmaker>and http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Junctionary_-_BBHs_-_3-way
15:47<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that's what I understood what is asked for really
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>i never build coop-style networks, though :p
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>and no two junctions ever look alike
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>looks like this then: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB)
15:50<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, I can also never recall two junctions ever being the same ;-)
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>how difficult would it be to strip all the YACD stuff from the savegame to load it in cargodist?
15:52<andythenorth>how do I use TTD_STR_QUANTITY_LIVESTOCK as a substring in nml?
15:52<andythenorth>nmlc ERROR: "fish.nml", line 2797: Expected a (literal) string
15:53<V453000>Literal_Unicorns_Totally-Not-Cows
15:53<V453000>: 1
15:53<andythenorth> additional_text: string(STR_BUY_MENU_TEXT, string(STR_LOG_TUG), string(STR_GENERIC_REFIT_SUBTYPE_BUY_MENU_INFO,80,240,400,TTD_STR_QUANTITY_LIVESTOCK));
15:53<V453000>;
15:53<andythenorth>move the TTD_STR outside of string() ?
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: put another string() around it?
15:53<andythenorth>that fails
15:53<andythenorth>tried it :)
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>how would you do it in NFO=
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>?
15:54<andythenorth>this works
15:54<andythenorth> additional_text: string(STR_BUY_MENU_TEXT, string(STR_LOG_TUG), string(STR_GENERIC_REFIT_SUBTYPE_BUY_MENU_INFO,80,240,400), TTD_STR_QUANTITY_LIVESTOCK);
15:54<andythenorth>in NFO I'd never try and construct such complicated strings :P
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>so your nesting was wrong?
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>how do the strings look?
15:56<andythenorth>great :)
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>*slap*
15:56<andythenorth>the nesting was fine for a string I defined
15:56<andythenorth>and very wrong for a TTD string
15:56<andythenorth>hmm
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>i mean what is the content of the texts
15:56<andythenorth>that's going to be troublesome if I need to use both :(
15:57<andythenorth>let's not use both :P
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15:57<fonsinchen>Stripping stuff from a savegame requires modifying YACD to increment the savegame version to something "known" while at the same time changing the save/load blocks to drop the unwanted stuff and add the stuff trunk has added in the mean time.
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>i think you're just doing something wrong
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>but my crystal ball is in the shop
15:58<V453000>ALL WRONG andy
15:58<V453000>give up
15:58<fonsinchen>(Provided that trunk has overtaken YACD in save/load numbering by now)
15:58<andythenorth>go read the spec :)
15:58<andythenorth>that's how I found the answer ;)
15:58<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Default_TTD_strings
15:58<andythenorth>first line above the table
15:58<andythenorth>docs ftw :P
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you still did not tell me the strings!!
15:59<andythenorth>hang on
15:59<andythenorth>you want the rendered result in game?
15:59<V453000>#andythetroll
15:59<andythenorth>or the local strings?
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the things that are in english.lng
15:59<andythenorth>STR_GENERIC_REFIT_SUBTYPE_BUY_MENU_INFO :{}{BLACK}Refittable capacities: {GOLD}{COMMA}, {COMMA} or {COMMA}{STRING}
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: may be a NML bug
16:01<andythenorth>really?
16:01<andythenorth>it's consistent with other handling of string()
16:02<andythenorth>wrapping a TTD_STR_BLAH in string() fails in nml, based on my limited experience
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it shouldn't be in the first parameter of a string()
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16:03<Eddi|zuHause>but why it works in the outer string() as parameter, but not in the innner string() as parameter, may be a bug
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16:05<andythenorth>ok
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>of course it's valid to move the parameters to the outer string...
16:09<Wolf01>bye
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16:11<andythenorth>I can't figure out if FISH builds twice, or just prints errors to stdout twice :P
16:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think the bug is in my code
16:15<andythenorth>I think I had a false positive earlier when I thought it worked
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: make may produce intermediate targets twice if two things depend on them but the intermediate target fails
16:16<andythenorth>that makes sense thanks
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>if the intermediate target is not a file, that is
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>happens with CETS as well, but i wasn't yet bothered enough to research how to fix it
16:21<andythenorth>I've given up trying to use the TTD strings
16:21<andythenorth>I've made my own, unmaintainable, non-translated ones
16:21<andythenorth>with no way to handle different weight units :P
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16:46<andythenorth>now what eh?
16:50<andythenorth>hi V453000 so are you going to fork CHIPS for a NUTS station set?
16:51<andythenorth>what goes with NUTS? o_O
16:51<V453000>yeah I probably will after the next NUTS release
16:51<V453000>(1.4.2013)
16:51<V453000>my minion seems to have disappeared, but that was to be expected :)
16:51<andythenorth>can I close your request then, without hurting your feelings? :)
16:51<andythenorth>(CHIPS)
16:51<V453000>I guess
16:52<andythenorth>yay
16:52<andythenorth>zero ticket count
16:52<V453000>:)
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17:42<andythenorth>so new CHIPS then?
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17:46<andythenorth>there's no way to loop in c pre-processor, right?
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18:07<@Terkhen>good night
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18:12<andythenorth>bye
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19:24<V453000>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/mayhem.png
19:25<V453000>it is coming
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 11 00:00:22 2013