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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-03-16

---Logopened Sat Mar 16 00:00:30 2013
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03:21<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:40<andythenorth>@seen frosch123
03:40<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 10 hours, 27 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <frosch123> night
03:44*andythenorth ponders decoupling breakdowns and servicing
03:44<andythenorth>choosing vehicle model according to reliability is an interesting strategic choice
03:45<andythenorth>managing servicing is tedious micro-management
03:45<andythenorth>not helped by servicing being broken for RVs and trains
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04:33<Flygon>One thing's always bothered me
04:33<Flygon>Signalling in OpenTTD not having 'moving block' type signalling
04:34<Flygon>Or: The signalling that doesn't use physical signalling, but in-cab, and is automatically calculated for distances between trains... uh, hard to explain
04:34<Flygon>But I know real-world systems use it
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04:45<@peter1138>it doesn't make much sense game-play wise though
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05:33<Thomas>hello, good morning
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05:47<Thomas>can anybody tells me, what i have to do, that my planes are not crashing so fast?
05:48<Kjetil>Stop buying boeings
05:49<Thomas>it was two times a ffp dart...
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05:52<@planetmaker>don't have large planes land on small airports (communter, small)
05:52<@planetmaker>good morning all
05:55<Thomas>ahhh ok, that could be possible, thanks...
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13:24<frosch123>client side authentication?
13:32<MNIM>now it would be nice if all this commotion over SC2013 would cause EA execs to reconsider their strategy.
13:32<MNIM>...but sadly they most likely will not
13:36<__ln__>i demand online-drm for openttd
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13:37<MNIM>I demand lots of beer and pretty wenches to serve my needs
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>i have wrenches at best
13:39<MNIM>well I have wrenches as well, that is not the issue >.>
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25088 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-03-16 18:45:20 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<@DorpsGek>english_AU - 8 changes by mrtux
14:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
14:45<@DorpsGek>serbian - 27 changes by ivan_mile
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15:15<andythenorth>frosch123: you play with breakdowns on, right?
15:16<andythenorth>I don't, trying to figure out why.
15:16<frosch123>so does albert afaik :)
15:16<andythenorth>no breakdowns means vehicle reliability is meaningless
15:16<@Alberth>yup :)
15:16<andythenorth>meaningless vehicle reliability loses a point of differentiation for newgrf vehicle sets
15:16<frosch123>reliabilty makes you reconsider your engine choices every game
15:17<andythenorth>but not in my game :P
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15:17<@Alberth>on the other hand, V considers playing with NUTS with breakdown on breaks the idea of the NewGRF
15:17<frosch123>how could it?
15:18<frosch123>it just randomly limits your engine choices
15:18<@Alberth>we don't consider many of the vehicles, afaik
15:18<frosch123>so, you have to decide between an older model of the most suited engine class or whether using a different engine class
15:18<V453000>I didnt say that, but I think breakdowns are so majorly broken that your whole network basically jams by default
15:19<frosch123>well, it reduced the capacity of your network
15:19<frosch123>but that is exactly what your choice on the engine affects
15:19<V453000>yeah which is a problem because the game loses any importance on details on the network and improving your construction, because everything will jam anyway
15:19<frosch123>the only thing which breakdowns make pointless are engine previews :)
15:19<V453000>you just have to provide stupid amount of rails with low train density :)
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15:21<@Alberth>V453000: indeed, I rememberered wrong
15:22<@Alberth>it was about weight multipliers
15:22<frosch123>andythenorth: well, i guess if we add randomised grf parameters (fs#eddi), one can use them to randomise vehicle statistics
15:22<V453000>I think it mentioned breakdowns somewhere too, but yeah multipliers indeed defeat the purpose of fragile cargo classes
15:22<frosch123>which would achieve almost the same goal as reliability does, just without breakdowns
15:22<V453000>lol idea
15:23<frosch123>i guess with multipliers you are right when using nuts
15:23<frosch123>it's more for other train sets which have no strong/fast engines
15:24<frosch123>and where you have to do everythnig via multiple engines
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15:24<frosch123>i am just to used to it, to disable it :p
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15:25<V453000>well yeah but that is because "other train sets" have broken stats
15:25<V453000>so the multipliers indeed can "fix" them
15:26<V453000>but whenever the train set is made with at least some logic for choice of engines like UKRS or obviously NUTS, multipliers only hurt there imo
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>the freight multiplier was from when train length was limited to 5 tiles
15:38<V453000>I rarely use trains longer than 5 tiles anyway :P
15:38<V453000>if you have weak fast trains, they obviously will completely break with multipliers, even with 2
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, the multiplier doesn't apply to passengers
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>which is 90% of fast trains
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>anyone fix grfcodec yet?
15:40<V453000>not in NUTS :) and it is boring not to have fast cargo trains tbh
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: randomised parameters are found here: (4th version of the patch)
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>need test grfs
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>different topic: is there a way for nml internal parameters (the ones you define by "x = blah" statements) to be bitstuffed into one grf parameter?
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15:56<andythenorth>so I turn off breakdowns because setting up servicing is really not fun
15:57<andythenorth>I don't mind the vehicle jams
15:57<frosch123>setting up servicing is easy
15:57<frosch123>you just need to disable the service interval
15:57<V453000>honestly if it was possible to make trains never break down with good enough servicing, it would have been fun
15:57<frosch123>(i.e. set it to 800 days)
15:57<V453000>but getting no reward is no fun
15:58<andythenorth>frosch123: what happens in that case?
15:58<andythenorth>doesn't reliability simply fall to 0%?
15:58<frosch123>you can force the servicing at specific locations
15:58<frosch123>instead of specific times
15:58<andythenorth>that's what I find boring
15:59<andythenorth>having to add servicing orders
15:59<frosch123>for trains you do not have to use orders
15:59<frosch123>you can just force them into depots along the way
15:59<andythenorth>but the performance with PBS is sub-optimal :P
15:59<andythenorth>I don't like the depot force trick :P
15:59<V453000>anytime train goes to depot it is serviced
15:59<V453000>ye, well breakdowns == bad :P
16:00<andythenorth>do road vehicles service at all without explicit orders?
16:00<andythenorth>mine seem to have real trouble with it :P
16:01<V453000>code HEQS as trains to make sure
16:03<andythenorth>can I keep breakdowns, and turn off servicing? o_O
16:03<andythenorth>fixed reliability, no decay
16:04<V453000>I think if you set servicing inverval to 0 then it is never
16:06<frosch123>yeah, there was that annomaly
16:06<frosch123>andythenorth: afaik fish breaks servicing like that
16:06<andythenorth>orly? :o
16:06<V453000>more importantly
16:06<V453000>if your interval is set to never, vehicles will not autoreplace
16:07<V453000>unless forced to depot
16:08<V453000>I do the vice versa case - I have servicing interval on 5 days with no breakdowns, therefore when pushing autoreplace button, they always want to autoreplace and dont have to wait for next servicing
16:11<andythenorth>and you have signals everywhere?
16:16<V453000>what do you mean by that
16:17<frosch123>andy encounters the issue that in many pbs layouts path costs are too high
16:18<frosch123>so vehicles never consider a depot near enough to go to it for servicing
16:18<frosch123>once a vehicle reseves a path it follows it
16:19<frosch123>so all tiles from the pbs to the junction for the depot count towards the path
16:19<frosch123>which is different from non-pbs
16:19<frosch123>also i believe at some point pbs caused the red signal penalty, though pbs are always red :p
16:19<frosch123>but maybe that was fixed
16:20<frosch123>anyway, both only affect players which build incorrect pbs junctions :)
16:21<frosch123>with signals behind junctions, and not in front of them
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16:45<andythenorth>yeah the pbs depot issue bugs me
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i've never had a pbs depot issue
16:50<andythenorth>you signal in front of them?
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>we should have NewBreakdowns :)
16:51<andythenorth>you won't see the issue on two track main-lines
16:51<andythenorth>only single track stuff usually
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't service :)
16:51<andythenorth>you win
16:51<andythenorth>pikka choo hi hi. Breakdowns on in your games?
16:52<Pikka>reduced, usually
16:56<andythenorth>maybe I should set reliability decay to 0
16:57<andythenorth>until the model life is up
16:57<V453000>or disable the newGRF when breakdowns are on :evil:
17:00<andythenorth>I like breakdowns ;)
17:01<V453000>I figured :)
17:01<andythenorth>Pikka: do you do anything interesting with reliability?
17:02<V453000>like taking it to the zoo?
17:02<andythenorth>or water skiing
17:02<V453000>or that
17:02<andythenorth>where is multiplayer game at?
17:02<V453000>too bad reliability doesnt quite combine with going out for beer
17:02<andythenorth>I have 1hr to kill
17:02<Pikka>I changed the decay a bit in my older sets but I think I'll probably leave it at 20 for mostly everything from now on
17:03<V453000>our Welcome Server is pretty much always active andythenorth
17:03<Pikka>it's too small an effect to be worthwhile
17:03<Pikka>maybe less for ships
17:03<andythenorth>decay is meh
17:03*Pikka no play, got to go in a bit
17:04<andythenorth>I am thinking about vehicles which are fast and cheap and stuff, but 50% unreliable :P
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17:16<Pikka>and how do you balance it for the 95% of people who play with breakdowns off, andy? :)
17:22<andythenorth>fuck em?
17:22<andythenorth>the answer then is just have fewer vehicles
17:22<andythenorth>less balancing
17:25<Pikka>of course ;)
17:25*Pikka bbl
17:48<Snail>you mean most ppl play with breakdowns off???
17:52<V453000>dont they
17:52<andythenorth>we have no idea :P
17:53<Snail>haha, this means I'm wasting my time trying to set a realistic reliability decay :p
17:54<andythenorth>probly :)
17:54<andythenorth>most properties are pointless afaict
17:55<andythenorth>speed, power, capacity are the only useful ones
17:55<andythenorth>and power is just a factor of speed
17:55<andythenorth>so capacity and speed only
17:55<andythenorth>the rest is meh
17:58<andythenorth>eh so what's the smallest useful truck size?
17:58<andythenorth>10t? 12t? 16t?
17:59<V453000>2 tiles
17:59<andythenorth>size / capacity /s :P
17:59<andythenorth>V453000: I keep considering a vehicle 'truck convoy'
17:59<andythenorth>3x 15t trucks
17:59<andythenorth>saves effort on building
18:00<V453000>I dont really know, I am always trying to come out of the "standard" which is to me most of newGRFs and mainly original stuff
18:01<andythenorth>you should do a plane set
18:04<V453000>that is 99.8% likely to never happen
18:05<andythenorth>would you put a €5k bet on it? o_O
18:05<V453000>seriously planes are even more dumb than ships
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18:09<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: that still means every 500th GRF you make will be a plane set :p
18:09<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: :D
18:09<andythenorth>V453000: write a grf generator
18:10<V453000>and I hoped my newGRF clearly stated it is aimed to make sense :(
18:12<andythenorth>BANDIT can have a capacity multiplier param
18:12<andythenorth>that will solve all evil
18:13<andythenorth>1x, 1.5x, 2x real-life capacity
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18:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes, except you shouldn't call it "real-life"
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18:22<andythenorth>@calc 28*1.5
18:22<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 42
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18:30<@Terkhen>good night
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19:04<andythenorth>trucks at 14t, 30t, 42t
19:05<andythenorth>and silly road trains at 78t and 165t
19:05<andythenorth>models change every 25 years or so, 1900-2000
19:07<V453000>165t per RV?
19:07<V453000>thats lol
19:07<andythenorth>not even unrealistic :o
19:07<Supercheese>3 trailers eh
19:07<V453000>I didnt ask about the R word :P
19:07<andythenorth>2AB (quad)
19:07<andythenorth>4 trailers, lots of tyres
19:07<V453000>why is R so close to F
19:08<andythenorth>has to be close to something
19:08<Supercheese>tires* ;)
19:08<TinoDidriksen>To slow down typing.
19:08<Supercheese>"tyres", "kerb"
19:08<Supercheese>Well, we did switch the driving side, makes sense some words would switch as well
19:09<andythenorth>wonder if I can get it done in a limit of 20 vehicles
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19:09<andythenorth>"20 is plenty"
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19:16<SigHunter>so i have a trainstation at a factory that was (without noticing) also in range of a farm. the station accepts crops and cattle but somehow also delivers, though the farm is not in range anymore. how can i get rid of the "delivering" part and just make it accept again
19:16<SigHunter>trains now dont unload but rather try to load there now
19:16<Supercheese>You can specify "no loading"
19:16<SigHunter>yes, for ~60 trains manually
19:16<Supercheese>but even easier may be just to demolish that station and route trains to a new one
19:16<Supercheese>oh 60 trains
19:16<SigHunter>37 sry
19:17<Supercheese>You'll have to do something manually unfortunately
19:17<Supercheese>nothing automatic to take care of that
19:17<SigHunter>its not even my mess, its the one from a friend, but he wants me to fix it :D
19:17<Supercheese>well, use shared orders if he/you aren't
19:17<SigHunter>ofcourse no shared orders, groups or else :/
19:19<MNIM>Isn't there a way to force a group to share orders?
19:20<Supercheese>Well, there's a way to add all vehicles that share orders to a group
19:20<Supercheese>not sure about vice versa
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21:08<Pikka>orudge broke my wiki :[
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21:22<Pikka>02 07 FF 89 1A 20 00 00 00 00 \2sto 1A 20 FF 00 00 00 \2rst 0C 00 FF FF 00 00 00 FF 00
21:22<Pikka>seriously, what the hey NML?
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21:50<Eddi|zuHause>what are we looking at?
21:54<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: which property do you think is wrong?
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22:10<@planetmaker>Pikka, you assume wrongly, I think, after reading OpenTTD's and NML's source. OpenTTD allows to define action0 with extended IDs. But there's a feature-specific ID limit which makes extended IDs somewhat pointless to use for most features
22:11<@planetmaker>Pikka, thus, the NML code using extended IDs for houses is correct, as NML also makes sure that you can't use more than 256 IDs in your newgrf
22:12<Eddi|zuHause>the specs say B* for <id>, nothing about only for vehicles
22:12<@planetmaker>The code says that, too
22:14<@planetmaker>and NML knows the limits for features in nml/actions/
22:17<Eddi|zuHause>"(houses and indtiles in principle allow up to 511, but action3 does not accept extended bytes)" <-- maybe this is what Pikka thought of?
22:17<Eddi|zuHause>(and why was that not part of GRFv8?
22:20<@planetmaker>we need something for grf v9 ;-)
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure it will be forgotten by then again :p
22:21<@planetmaker>frosch keeps lists for such things usually :-)
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>but he's not here :)
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22:40<Pikka>then why doesn't it work? :)
22:41<Pikka>unless ID 00 and ID FF 00 00 are different? :)
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22:41<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: so does it work if you change this?
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 17 00:00:32 2013