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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-03-17

---Logopened Sun Mar 17 00:00:32 2013
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04:33<OSN|GriGore>hello there, i want to start a server so me and some friends can join and have phun, but i have centos, [osn@gorehost ~]$ cat /etc/*-release
04:33<OSN|GriGore>CentOS Linux release 6.0 (Final)
04:33<OSN|GriGore>where can i get the centos server openttd ?
04:37<__ln__>on an unrelated note, 6.0 is not up-to-date, so you're missing a number of security updates and stuff.
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04:39<@Alberth>moin
04:48<OSN|GriGore>i know, thats not a problem, the serv is not used, will update it ... i got generic linux, hope does the job for openttd serv
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04:55<@Alberth>for what it is worth, it does
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05:03<@Terkhen>good morning
05:06<@Alberth>moin
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05:37<Wolf01>hello
05:38<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
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05:43<Wolf01>hi andy
05:46<andythenorth>lo
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05:56<@Alberth>o/
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07:46<heffer>hmm how far is the 1.3.0 release away? ottd fails to build on Fedora 19+ (GCC 4.8) and i'm wondering if i should patch or wait for the new release
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07:51<frosch123>heffer: http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/rev/12e78b0c4488 <- if you want to patch it
07:51<frosch123>the release date is likely the usual one
08:00<heffer>okay, thanks :D
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09:04<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25089 /trunk/src (11 files in 2 dirs) (2013-03-17 13:04:10 UTC)
09:04<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Move CharSetFilter from QueryString to Textbuf.
09:04<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25090 trunk/src/textbuf.cpp (2013-03-17 13:04:48 UTC)
09:04<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Make editbox character filters also apply to pasted content from clipboard.
09:05<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25091 /trunk/src (textbuf.cpp textbuf_type.h) (2013-03-17 13:05:18 UTC)
09:05<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Call keycodes by their name.
09:05<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25092 /trunk/src (6 files) (2013-03-17 13:05:45 UTC)
09:05<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Deduplicate keyboard handling between console and editboxes.
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09:42<__ln__>http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/16/opinion/schneier-internet-surveillance/index.html
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10:41<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25093 trunk/src/news_gui.cpp (2013-03-17 14:41:09 UTC)
10:41<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5486]: Clicking the statusbar crashed, when news were pending but no news were shown yet. (3298)
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11:06<svenzzon>hello
11:07<Tiku>Guys? Anyone know why openttd.exe tries to access searchindexer.exe after quitting the game? Firewall makes an issue out of it. Normal behavior?
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11:08<frosch123>ottd does not know about any searchindexer
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11:08<frosch123>when it exits it saves the configuration
11:08<frosch123>if that causes your desktop search to update its index that an thing of your desktop search
11:09<frosch123>no idea what that has to do with firewalls though
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11:10<frosch123>maybe your desktop search reports everything you do to fb or so
11:10<Tiku>FW warns about unauthorized access on com interface at system32/searchindexer.exe.
11:11<frosch123>well, ottd certainly does not do that :)
11:11<frosch123>so, block it and see what happens :)
11:12<Tiku>o_O guess so. Havnt given permission to do whatever it would like to do. Gotta dig up what's the purpose of searchindexer and maybe why it would activate.
11:18<@Alberth>it enables a "find your document on a phrase" feature, probably
11:18<@Alberth>aka "grep" :)
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11:22<Tiku>Now i killed it :P
11:22<Tiku>THX guys.
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11:41<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r25094 /trunk/src (5 files in 5 dirs) (2013-03-17 15:41:40 UTC)
11:41<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Introduce dropdown for selecting the sort criterion in the town directory window (sbr)
11:42<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r25095 trunk/src/town_gui.cpp (2013-03-17 15:42:50 UTC)
11:42<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Immediately save the sort order of the town directory instead of when closing the window.
11:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r25096 trunk/src/town_gui.cpp (2013-03-17 15:44:19 UTC)
11:44<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Do descending sort order on population by default, and stabilize sort of equally populated towns.
11:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r25097 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt town_gui.cpp) (2013-03-17 15:45:24 UTC)
11:45<@DorpsGek>-Feature[FS#5288]: Add sorting on rating for the town directory window (based on work by sbr).
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12:09<andythenorth>diagonal rivers for 1.3.0? o_O
12:09<andythenorth>I'll draw them
12:11<frosch123>V already did them
12:11<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r25098 /trunk/src/lang (61 files in 2 dirs) (2013-03-17 16:11:19 UTC)
12:11<@DorpsGek>-Change(r25094): Change the population string for other languages as well.
12:11<andythenorth>I've seen V's
12:11<andythenorth>I doubt they'll be in trunk somehow? o_O
12:11<andythenorth>or are we changing how the game works?
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12:16<Eddi|zuHause>"we" are most definitely not including V's "rivers" in trunk :p
12:16<andythenorth>so that just leaves the 'proper' diagonal option o_O
12:16<andythenorth>what do I need to do?
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138 used to have some half-baked sprites, iirc
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>and, of course, a patch :p
12:18<andythenorth>he has lost more patches than I'll write in my lifetime :P
12:20<andythenorth>window resize is a bit interesting on OS X :D https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3989/Screen%20Shot%202013-03-17%20at%2016.19.37.png
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>my brain just exploded...
12:21<andythenorth>I quite like the effect
12:25<frosch123>looks like you have an obiwan
12:26<andythenorth>yup
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12:38<andythenorth>lo Snail
12:38<Snail>hey
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14:13<frosch123>so, i guess pikka only tested multiples of 20 :p
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>EUnresolvedReference
14:18<frosch123>fs#5382
14:19<frosch123>he complains that high acceleration values cause the aircraft to not accelerate at all
14:19<frosch123>while ottd actually uses (acceleration mod 20)
14:24<V453000>tell him to code them as trains :>
14:25<frosch123>not sure how aircraft would work as traisn
14:25<V453000>would be awesome
14:26<V453000>runways everywhere
14:26<Kjetil>to bad planes tax slow as hell ? :P
14:28<frosch123>hmm, how about baggage conveyor belts as railtype?
14:29<frosch123>V453000: would that suit your needs?
14:29<V453000>:DDD
14:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25099 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2013-03-17 18:31:35 UTC)
14:31<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5492]: Limit aircraft property 0D to 19, since the conversion result to km-ish/h needs to fit into a byte.
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14:32<frosch123>yay for mixing hex and dec in a single sentence :)
14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25100 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2013-03-17 18:45:24 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
14:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
14:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
14:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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16:00<__ln__>aurora borealis
16:01<andythenorth>in ottd? how rare
16:01<__ln__>yeah, well, not, in the sky
16:01<Supercheese>nothernLights.grf
16:02<Supercheese>northern*
16:02<andythenorth>probably features town replacement: nightclubs in manchester :P
16:02<andythenorth>blackpool!
16:03<andythenorth>http://enjoyfestivals.com/wp-content/gallery/blackpool-illuminations-photos/aerial-photo-of-lancashire-blackpool-illuminations.jpg
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16:07<frosch123>hmm, so... is it plausible that the aircraft speed unit is not 8 mph as documented for 10 years in the specs, but actually 15/2 mph?
16:07<frosch123>(resp. mph/8 and mph/7.5 for those who do not know how to do calculus with units)
16:07<Supercheese>aircraft speeds are borked in NML
16:08<Supercheese>when using the internal units anyway
16:08<frosch123>who talks about nml?
16:08<Supercheese>"100 mph" ≠ 100 mph in-game
16:08<Supercheese>frosch: NML is the only grf-speak :P
16:08<andythenorth>frosch123: totally plausible :)
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16:14<frosch123>ah, the 8 mph unit is correct
16:15<frosch123>it's just that the original planespeed of 1/4 is actually 15/64
16:18<andythenorth>hmm
16:18<andythenorth>FIRS 0.11.0
16:18<andythenorth>if anyone can translate in the next 40 minutes, I'll add them :P
16:26<Supercheese>more strings eh?
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16:35<Wolf01>'night
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16:38<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25101 branches/1.3/bin/baseset/opntitle.dat (2013-03-17 20:38:53 UTC)
16:39<@DorpsGek>[1.3] -Update: the intro game
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16:53<V453000>there be a winner? :)
16:54<frosch123>there was a strong disagreement between voters and devs
16:54<frosch123>all devs voted for game 5
16:54<frosch123>but it turned out last anyway
16:55<V453000>LOL
16:55<V453000>sooo ... fuck voters? :D
16:56<V453000>wait 05 is in nightlies :D
16:56<frosch123>game 5 would have been the least work :)
16:56<V453000>which one was first by voters? :) just curious
16:56<Rubidium>the one in 1.3?
16:56<frosch123>i think there will be an annoucement :p
16:57<V453000>well I like the nightly one personally
16:57<V453000>buuut having something different for stable is nice too
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>ah i knew i forgot something...
16:58<andythenorth>ho ho, my FIRS issue list is getting bigger not small
16:58<andythenorth>that can't be right :P
16:58<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r25102 /branches/1.3 (15 files in 3 dirs) (2013-03-17 20:58:40 UTC)
16:58<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: [1.3] -Backport from trunk:
16:58<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Limit aircraft property 0D to 19, since the conversion result to km-ish/h needs to fit into a byte [FS#5492] (r25099)
16:58<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Clicking the statusbar crashed, when news were pending but no news were shown yet [FS#5486] (r25093)
16:58<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Make editbox character filters also apply to pasted content from clipboard (r25090, r25089)
16:58<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
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17:02<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25103 /branches/1.3/src/lang (23 files) (2013-03-17 21:02:36 UTC)
17:02<@DorpsGek>[1.3] -Backport from trunk: language updates
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17:05<Eddi|zuHause>i smell an RC3 upcoming
17:05<andythenorth>forums is logging me out every 15 mins or so, getting boring :P
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>cookie troubles?
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>disk full?
17:07<andythenorth>neither
17:08<andythenorth>nvm
17:10<andythenorth>FIRS 0.11.0 done :P
17:14<andythenorth>question: container trucks
17:14<andythenorth>my BANDIT set design is now *really* minimal
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17:14<andythenorth>are containers a subtype refit, or a new vehicle type?
17:14<andythenorth>subtype refitting got better recently ;)
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>container trucks: slightly lower capacity, but autorefit to everything?
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17:20<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how that relates to normal articulated trucks
17:22<Snail>what kinds of cargo do you use containers for?
17:24<andythenorth>in Squid Ate FISH, it will be express only
17:24<andythenorth>give or take what I define as 'express' :P
17:25<Snail>hmm
17:25<Snail>I also use containers for FIRS supplies in my set
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17:26<Snail>for instance farm supplies could be tools that can be transported in containers
17:26<andythenorth>ye
17:26<andythenorth>yes *
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>you mean mail, goods, etc?
17:28<andythenorth>hang on, screenshot
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17:30<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3815/container_feeder.png
17:30<andythenorth>not sure about petrol :P
17:30<andythenorth>oops
17:30<andythenorth>wrong screenshot :o
17:31<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3992/container_feeder_refit.png
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17:31<andythenorth>mostly secondary cargos
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17:32<Eddi|zuHause>petrol and plant fibres don't quite fit in this list
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>also, check how ECS cargos fit into that
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>"plant fibres" is a cargo i don't really understand in general
17:33<andythenorth>hmm
17:34<andythenorth>how do I make ECS work?
17:34<andythenorth>I loaded all vectors, but only a few cargos appear
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>order them by GRFID
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17:34<Eddi|zuHause>i think the town vector has to be first
17:35<andythenorth>oops, don't change those on a running game :P
17:35<Snail>yes and how about wood?
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>Timber = processed wood
17:35<Snail>that wouldn't fit very well in containers IMO...
17:36<Snail>timber would be ok (more regular size) but wood?
17:36<Snail>oh wood is not in the list :p I misread "wool"
17:36<andythenorth>Snail: logs can be done, but meh
17:36<andythenorth>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNnYTXmKlI8
17:36<andythenorth>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvC3FW7rSiM
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17:36<Eddi|zuHause>not watching youtube tonight...
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the first video is blocked for copyfudge
17:37<andythenorth>:P
17:37<andythenorth>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttSBKS7dqbM
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>apparently it contains music
17:38<andythenorth>^ bulldozer going in sideways to a 40ft container
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>and that is not allowed. it's VERBOTEN
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>excuse me if i don't feel the same excitement about heavy machinery as you do.
17:40<andythenorth>you're excused
17:40<andythenorth>hmm youtube. there goes the rest of my evening
17:41<V453000>3 logs per container? :D LOL would not want to load that
17:43<andythenorth>nice animation in ECS
17:43<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3995/container_feeder_refit_ecs.png
17:43<andythenorth>refits with ECS
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not familiar enough with ECS to see which cargos are excluded then
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>but you left out mail
17:47<Snail>gasoline in containers?
17:47<Snail>wouldn't tanks be better?
17:47<andythenorth>http://www.tectainer.co.uk/products_transport_tanks/images/diesel_petrol_container.jpg
17:47<andythenorth>tanktainer
17:48<Snail>but then you'd have to change the visual representation on the ship (if any)
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17:57<andythenorth>Snail: that is a good point :o
17:58<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25104 trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp (2013-03-17 21:58:18 UTC)
17:58<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5507]: Allow changing GS settings in-game via the AI/GS config window.
17:58<Snail>or just restrict liquid stuff to tank ships :) (water can be ok, if it's in bottles)
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18:05<andythenorth>bed time
18:05<andythenorth>bye
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18:11<frosch123>night
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18:14<nicfer>hello
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19:19<@Terkhen>good night
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19:35<Core_Xii>what, in terms of the game engine and NewGRF capabilities, is the difference between bus stations and truck stations?
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19:35<Supercheese>Bus stations are for RVs that carry Passenger cargo classes only
19:35<Supercheese>truck stations are for RVs that carry other-than-passenger cargos
19:35<Core_Xii>so NewGRFs cannot define trucks that carry passengers nor buses that carry cargo?
19:36<Supercheese>any "bus" that carries, say, mail, becomes essentially not-a-bus
19:36<Supercheese>you can define what you like
19:36<Core_Xii>so what's the difference between the two?
19:36<Supercheese>the RV will have to go to the appropriate station based on what cargo it currently carries
19:37<Core_Xii>but I can define each type of station, what type of cargo it can handle?
19:37<Supercheese>I have no idea what happens if you have an articulated RV with mixed passenger & non-passenger cargoes
19:38<Supercheese>newgrfs can only change road station graphics
19:38<Core_Xii>bus/truck stations are fixed to always handle passenger-class cargo and other cargo, respectively?
19:39<Supercheese>yep
19:39<Supercheese>also, I wonder if weird things would happen if your RV decides to autorefit to passengers while in a truck station, or autorefit to non-passengers while in a bus station
19:39<Core_Xii>is there anything special about passenger class cargo? (other than this)
19:40<Supercheese>a few things
19:40<Supercheese>town growth stuff
19:40<Supercheese>requires passenger-class cargo
19:40<Core_Xii>I recall the wiki saying that temperate towns grow as long as any cargo is transported near them?
19:41<Core_Xii>"Town growth can be accelerated by loading and unloading at least one item of cargo at up to five stations within town influence within a two month period. It does not matter which cargos are loaded/unloaded."
19:41<Supercheese>yeah, think it's custom town growth (i.e. other climates or game scripts or whatnot)
19:41<Supercheese>also capacity multiplier is different methinks
19:41<Zuu>There is a set of town effects. One of them is called PASSENGERS. Default passengers belong there but NewGRFs can define additional cargos that are included in that town effect.
19:41<Zuu>http://nogo.openttd.org/api/trunk/classGSCargo.html#bb93eb754dcd7b9e5623b18169f293b3
19:42<Supercheese>^ that
19:42<Core_Xii>ok that I grok
19:42<Core_Xii>can town houses be defined to generate any cargo?
19:42<Supercheese>probably
19:42<Supercheese>I haven't tried, but I don't see why not
19:43<Core_Xii>can industry tiles change dynamically based on the industry's production amount?
19:43<Supercheese>I think they can change dynamically based on any available variable
19:43<Supercheese>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Industries#Industry_tile_variables
19:43<+glx>houses generate only passenger and mail
19:44<Supercheese>glx: we're talking about newgrf houses
19:44<+glx>me too :)
19:44<Supercheese>that still true in grfs?
19:44<Supercheese>"cargo_production (cargo_type * 256) + amount "
19:44<Supercheese>specify some arbitrary cargo, eh?
19:46<Core_Xii>the wiki doesn't list industry production as a variable that an industry tile can access, as far as I can tell. so I guess it's not possible?
19:46<+glx>hmm maybe callback 2E
19:46<Supercheese>Hmm, maybe the production_level variable is unavailable to tiles
19:47<Supercheese>not sure
19:47<+glx>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Custom_cargo_production_.282E.29
19:47<Core_Xii>can industries change layouts dynamically? could hack tile changes in that way perhaps
19:47<+glx>so houses can produce anything
19:47<Supercheese>:)
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19:49<Core_Xii>do you foresee any problems if electric rail was available *before* normal rail?
19:57<Supercheese>Probably not technical problems. Might confuse players, though :P
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20:00<Core_Xii>is there an overview of how NewGRF work? I'm not at all clear how they integrate with the game. they consist of callbacks or something?
20:03<Supercheese>Hmm
20:03<Supercheese>Well, the NewGRF technical discussion has a lot of stuff http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=68
20:03<Supercheese>nothing particularly condensed for easy reading
20:04<Core_Xii>is it like data definition, like a markup language, that OpenTTD reads when it needs to, or more like an interpreted programming language?
20:04<Supercheese>They're like add-ons
20:04<Supercheese>Firefox extensions, I guess are somewhat analogous
20:04<+glx>it's a mix of data definition and interpreted language
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20:04<Supercheese>Firefox/Chrome/your favorite browser add-ons
20:05<Core_Xii>ok. so OTTD calls some parts of the NGRF when it does stuff, like generates an industry?
20:05<Supercheese>OTTD loads selected NewGRFs on game start, and those become an integral part of that game (.sav game)
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20:06<Core_Xii>how does currency conversion work?
20:06<+glx>fixed rate
20:06<Supercheese>Well, I think the GBP is 2x the USD
20:06<Supercheese>which is not very realistic :P
20:06<+glx>and everything is in GBP internally :)
20:06<Supercheese>but yeah, fixed it seems
20:06<Core_Xii>OTTD has an internal currency, right? the same that's exposed to AIs? then the UI converts it for display?
20:07<Core_Xii>I guess you answered those
20:07<Supercheese>as glx said, internal units are the same as the displayed GBP
20:07<Core_Xii>is there any currency with exchange rate less than 1 compared to GBP?
20:07<Supercheese>although I'm taking his word for that, I haven't checked myself :P
20:08<Core_Xii>and if so, how does that currency handle amounts less than 1 GBP?
20:08<+glx>only integer
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20:34<Core_Xii>can industries change appearance based on whether they're subsidized?
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20:44<Eddi|zuHause>not that i know of
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20:51<+glx>it should be doable by abusing animation frames
20:52<Core_Xii>glx: which thing should be doable?
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>glx: how would an industry learn that it's target of a subsidy?
20:52<Core_Xii>I don't know, callback
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>(unless he meant it's funded by a player)
20:53<Core_Xii>no, meant literal subsidies
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, i don't recall ever seeing this information being exposed to newgrfs
20:54<+glx>hmm indeed it's not available
20:55<Core_Xii>how does an industry tile decide on its sprite? I don't think I spotted this info on NML:Industries
20:56<Eddi|zuHause>Core_Xii: all items decide its sprites upon the "default" callback in the gaphics section
20:56<Core_Xii>oh... industry property.... layouts? Tilelayout
20:56<Eddi|zuHause>*their
20:56<Eddi|zuHause>there are "spritelayouts" and such, but i never dealt with those
20:57<Core_Xii>ahh yes I see, default industry tile callback
20:57<Core_Xii>what's the "Sprite layout" return type?
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>a spriteset
20:59<Core_Xii>can an industry tile dynamically compose its appearance from multiple overlapping sprites?
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>yes
20:59<Core_Xii>so e.g. overlay fences depending on adjacent tiles
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>yes
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>concerning fences, you might want to check out the "OpenGFX+Landscape" GRF as an example, it has grassland with fences
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>(as objects, but the graphics part should be similar)
21:45<Core_Xii>is there any way to affect cargo payment rate based on which industry it's delivered to?
21:45<Core_Xii>i.e. have two different industries accepting the same cargo, but with differing payment rates
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21:46<Core_Xii>can an industry accept AND produce the SAME cargo?
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21:56<Eddi|zuHause>yes, e.g. the bank in the default industries
21:57<Core_Xii>oh yea. cargo tracks where it came from, so you can't just transport it right back to its source, correct?
21:58<Eddi|zuHause>depends-ish
21:58<Eddi|zuHause>it only tracks which station it was loaded from
21:58<Eddi|zuHause>so you can't unload it at the same station
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21:59<Core_Xii>so you could have two stations at the same bank, transporting valuables from one to the other? :P
21:59<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember reading something about a minimum distance travelled, or you wouldn't get paid, but i have never tested thaqt
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 18 00:00:33 2013