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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-03-18

---Logopened Mon Mar 18 00:00:33 2013
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01:44<Supercheese>GRFcrawker borked
01:45<Supercheese>crawler*
01:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25105 /branches/1.3 (7 files in 5 dirs) (2013-03-18 05:53:35 UTC)
01:53<@DorpsGek>[1.3] -Prepare: for 1.3.0-RC3
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02:00<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25106 tags/1.3.0-RC3/ (2013-03-18 06:00:14 UTC)
02:00<@DorpsGek>-Release: 1.3.0-RC3
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02:18<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25107 /trunk (config.lib findversion.sh) (2013-03-18 06:18:06 UTC)
02:18<@DorpsGek>-Change: be slightly more lenient with trying to detect a subversion repository in case someone has a sparse tags checkout. In that case the .svn folder misses from the $ROOT_DIR because it is in the $ROOT_DIR/.. (i.e. tags) folder
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02:40<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:58<Bonez305>Hi
02:59<Bonez305>anyone run a debian server ?
03:04<Bonez305>If having dificulties locating where the openttd file was installed
03:11<Supercheese>good night
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03:21<dihedral>good morning
03:22<Twofish>'morning
03:22<Twofish>moooonday :/
03:23<Twofish>Seem to come before I realise that the week end has started...
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04:27<SpyroTheDragon>Hello all! Sorrry for my so-so english. I'm learning for compilation OpenTTD in Visual Studio 2010 Express. In Wiki there is a text that I must load open_vs90.sln. But what difference between this and open_vs100.sln?
04:28<TinoDidriksen>vs90 is VS 2008
04:28<TinoDidriksen>I'd expect you should use vs100 since that's the VS 2010 version number.
04:30<SpyroTheDragon>ou, thanks, it's done :)
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04:37<V453000>I broke openttd? :( http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5508
04:41<Bonez305>Hey everyone !
04:44<SpyroTheDragon>hey
04:51<SpyroTheDragon>guys! After compilation OpenTTD in VS2010 where I can find my game (.exe)?
04:51<V453000>another strange thing: NUTS adds an universal rail. I have defined that railtype as UNIV with number ID of 15. Now I added "WETRails", I gave them ID 12 and they are put before univrail in the code. When I update from the old newGRF to the new, univ rail is changed to WETRails, even though the IDs should be taking care of that? :(
04:55<V453000>swapping them around in the code solves it, but wtf :o
04:56<V453000>of course that also causes the WETR to be below UNIV in the railtype list, which is ugly :(
04:56<V453000>do the railtype numeric IDs have any effect?
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05:06<V453000>guess I could use the railtype sorting, but still a weird thing
05:13<@planetmaker>moin
05:13<V453000>hai pm
05:13<V453000>everything is breaking here :(
05:20<@planetmaker>just saw that... not good
05:20<@planetmaker>but good that you find it ;-)
05:20<@planetmaker>though technically, changing the NewGRF on a running game might have that effect, so that might not be an actual bug
05:20<V453000>:p drawing NINE loading stages makes you investigate :D
05:21<@planetmaker>the other one... very strange. But there's some issues i nthat code as of late
05:21<V453000>I guess, but what is the numeric railtype ID for then?
05:21<@planetmaker>that ID defines the sort-order in the GUI
05:21<@planetmaker>lower ID is up
05:21<V453000>also without changing newGRFs in game, they still are "15" above "12" if I just swap the code
05:21<V453000>that doesnt work either :s
05:21<@planetmaker>or vice versa. I don't recall
05:22<V453000>I had 1 2 3 4 15 12
05:22<V453000>just because I swapped the two last in the code
05:22<V453000>I did make a workaround and use the sort_order thingy, but the numeric ID seems to be doing nothing
05:24<@planetmaker>if you use sort order, the ID is pointless
05:24<V453000>nono, without sort order
05:24<@planetmaker>then the ID defines the sort order wrt other concurrently loaded sets
05:25<V453000>I used the sort order after I noticed it isnt working
05:25<@planetmaker>but... well. I never looked at that code
05:25<V453000>hehe, well it does have a solution, but there is some strange behaviour there
05:26<@planetmaker>hm, which ID do you actually mean?
05:27<V453000>item (FEAT_RAILTYPES, WETR, 12){ the 12
05:28<dihedral>TrueBrain, what's the current state for the usage of *.noaddedsugar.net ?
05:28<@planetmaker>ok... and swapping them has no effect you say (when no sort order is defined)?
05:28<V453000>this is the code of all my railtypes http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2161/ without the sort_order, 12 will show below 15 because they are that way in the code. If I just swap them in the code, it will swap them too - and make the newGRF also break with changing newGRF in game
05:29<V453000>it has some effect
05:29<V453000>it has the effect of which railtype changes how when updating newGRFs
05:29<V453000>but of course it does not change the order in the menu as sort_order defines that
05:30<V453000>so, when NUTS47 had 5 railtypes with the 5th one being UNIV rail, NUTS48 must have 5th UNIV too, but adding the WETR as 6th
05:31<V453000>otherwise the UNIV -> WETR borkdown when changing newGRFs in running game
05:32<V453000>from which I come to a conclusion that the 12 or 15 do not matter at all
05:32<V453000>as only the order in the code seems to
05:34<V453000>does the thing I wrote make any sense? :d
05:36<@planetmaker>changing NewGRFs in a running game need not work
05:36<@planetmaker>that's not a bug per se
05:37<V453000>well sure I dont say that, but it shows how the ID is not doing much
05:37<@planetmaker>what IMHO should work is that the ID defines sort order when it is not given explicitly
05:37<V453000>yeah
05:37<V453000>indeed
05:37<@planetmaker>does it do that (for new games)? I understood your report it does not?
05:38<V453000>yeah sure, same behaviour with new games
05:38<V453000>obviously nothing breaks that way, but the order of the railtypes still is swapped (unless I use sort_order)
05:42<V453000>on another note, the loading stages thingy apparently happened since RC2
05:43<V453000>and 25071 already does it
05:44<@planetmaker>would be nice to know which version broke it - or at least roughly pinpoint where it breaks :-)
05:46<V453000>wow
05:46<V453000>@25069 [25069] 13 days frosch -Release 1.3.0-RC2
05:46<V453000>and 25071 breaks
05:46<@planetmaker>but RC2 not?
05:46<V453000>the only changes seem to be in the webtranslator http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/?action=stop_on_copy&mode=stop_on_copy&rev=25071&stop_rev=&limit=100
05:46<V453000>how :o
05:46<V453000>yep
05:47<@planetmaker>well. nightly is not 1.3 branch. There are some differences already
05:47<V453000>true
05:48<@planetmaker>basically RC1 is when branch-off happens
05:48<V453000>25016-25012 seem to be some changes around that area
05:48<@planetmaker>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/rev/bab7c5e9c54e I suspect
05:49<@planetmaker>and those others you mention, yes
05:49<V453000>yeah
05:49<@planetmaker>cargodist breaks it ;-)
05:49<V453000>cargodist in trunk?
05:50<@planetmaker>nope
05:50<V453000>then how can it break it :D
05:50<@planetmaker>but those are preparatory parts of it
05:50<V453000>:D
05:50<V453000>breaks stuff before existence
05:51<@planetmaker>so trunk is broken, RC is not. That's good :D
05:52<V453000>:)
05:52<@planetmaker>r25k is branching of course :D
05:53<V453000>sense :)
05:54<@planetmaker>ah, good, you added the rev reference already to the issue
05:54<V453000>yez
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08:40<blathijs>Hmm, is it me or is this snippet from the "Musicdriver" wiki page incorrect: "extmidi: Enables an external midi device, from the sound cards midi/game port"
08:40<blathijs>AFAIU extmidi means an external midi driver, not an external midi port
08:41<blathijs>e.g., external process for midi playback
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09:14*Pikka blames peter1138
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09:26<V453000>whaaat 07 did not win? Unfair!
09:28<@peter1138>what
09:28<V453000>teh title gaym
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>so, which one did win?
09:30<V453000>07
09:41<__ln__>but kimi's number is 7 and he won.
10:05<Bonez305>anyone running a server on linux ?
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10:16<Eddi|zuHause>hm, NML parameter stuffing: would it make sense to make the assignment statement "[<type>] <name> = <value>", with <type> ::= { "bit" | "byte" | "word" | "dword" }, so that NML can fit multiple named parameters into one GRF-parameter?
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>defaults to "dword" for backwards compatibility
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10:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by matthijs :: r25108 trunk/Makefile.src.in (2013-03-18 14:45:06 UTC)
10:45<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Pass $LDFLAGS_BUILD to all endian_check compilations.
10:45<@DorpsGek> - In Makefile.{lang,setting}.in the flags were already passed since r24365.
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11:07<Ristovski>hmm, I might be able to translate to Macedonian
11:07<@planetmaker>Ristovski, http://translator.openttd.org/en/faq explains how to apply
11:08<Ristovski>ok
11:08<@planetmaker>a macedonian translator would be highly welcome. Much work ahead there ;-)
11:09<Ristovski>I know, I can see ;D
11:09<Ristovski>only 28% done :D
11:09<@planetmaker>basically: register with OpenTTD, send the login and desired language to our translator e-mail address and we'll assign you to the macedonian translation
11:09<Ristovski>planetmaker: already all done :D
11:09<@planetmaker>and then you can start translating using the web translator. Oh, ok
11:10<@planetmaker>then expect a reply later this evening. I don't have openttd e-mail at work
11:10<Ristovski>ok, sure
11:11<Ristovski>planetmaker: why does http://translator.openttd.org/en/signup/ exist too?
11:11<@planetmaker>he, I didn't know it exists :-)
11:12<Ristovski>lol, but nvm, already sent the email :D
11:12<Ristovski>I think I can also try to translate some wiki pages into Macedonian aswell
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11:12<Ristovski>it will take some time tho
11:13<@planetmaker>sure. you need no special permission for that. Please go right ahead :-)
11:13<Ristovski>oh, ok :D
11:16<Ristovski>planetmaker: hmm, how can I edit http://wiki.openttd.org/Category:Articles_in_other_languages, the caption for the czech lang. is wrong
11:16<Ristovski>am I allowed to edit it?
11:16<@planetmaker>wiki is wiki. People may edit it to change / improve / add what they think is wrong or needs adding or clarification
11:17<Ristovski>ok
11:17<@planetmaker>though you linked a category page... that's mostly automatically generated by wiki
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11:19<Ristovski>planetmaker: hmm, is this a bug or something, I changed the |cs= tho it didnt change the text in the category
11:19<Ristovski>aka in the [Category:Translation]]
11:20<Ristovski>oh, its the pages name
11:20<@planetmaker>yes
11:20<@planetmaker>it should stay, I guess ;-)
11:20<Ristovski>hmm, so I cant rename the page?
11:21<Ristovski>since the title is wrong
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11:21<@planetmaker>it's feasible... but it involves changes in a few places
11:21<Core_Xii>what determines the selling price of vehicles?
11:21<@planetmaker>and I know it neither by heart nor can I properly explain tha from scratch on IRC
11:22<Ristovski>planetmaker: oh ok, also, lol someone seems to have used google translate to translate it, 40% is wrong
11:22<@planetmaker>sounds bad, Ristovski :-)
11:22<Ristovski>indeed
11:22<V453000>im sure there is some cost_multiplier property or something like that Core_Xii
11:22<@planetmaker>but there's no way for us to check as non-native speaker
11:22<Ristovski>planetmaker: I am a native speaker :D
11:22<@planetmaker>Core_Xii, the purchase cost and then the sale price is the same, but reduced over time
11:23<V453000>cost_factor 0 ... 255 Set to 0 multiplier to the base purchase cost
11:23<@planetmaker>probably over the lifetime of the vehicle
11:23<Ristovski>I speak both Macedonian and Czech, I also know Serbian, so I can help in translating there aswell
11:23<Core_Xii>that's purchase cost. but what of selling?
11:23<@planetmaker>Ristovski, yes, you do :-) But people who are notnative speakers can't even notice
11:23<Ristovski>planetmaker: I can imagine
11:23<@planetmaker>Core_Xii, as I said...
11:23<V453000>why do you want to change selling but not purchase? :D
11:24<Core_Xii>but how is it reduced over time?
11:24<Core_Xii>some factor of vehicle age?
11:24<@planetmaker>likely
11:24<__ln__>17:20 < Ristovski> hmm, so I cant rename the page? <--- you mean "can't"
11:25<Ristovski>__ln__: *sigh*
11:25<V453000>I havent seen anyone correct that on irc for ages :D
11:25<Ristovski>why do you even bother
11:25<Core_Xii>V453000: I want to change selling ratio to discourage a certain strategy.. of buying vehicles, sending them one-way, selling after unloading (easy for AIs, difficult for humans)
11:25<@planetmaker>Core_Xii, that requires changes to openttd's code. Not Newgrf-able
11:25<Core_Xii>that is, to make it more economical to KEEP a train than continue buying and selling them
11:25<V453000>only retards do that ... if they enjoy the game that way, why not
11:25<Core_Xii>that's unfortunate
11:26<V453000>my solution would be to just simply make costs of trains low
11:26<Ristovski>oh my god, if i ever go into translating I will alot of job
11:26<V453000>therefore making the network big quickly with low costs means the selling trick isnt effective
11:26<Core_Xii>not AS effective, yes, but still strictly superior
11:27<V453000>well, high costs are boring anyway
11:27<@planetmaker>Core_Xii, that strategy works for maybe the first 5 years (ingame). Then it's ineffective
11:27<Core_Xii>why would it become ineffective?
11:27<@planetmaker>thus solving that is solving a problem which practically doesn't exist
11:27<V453000>and if you have a lot of trains quickly, nobody can do that effectively
11:27<Core_Xii>an AI can
11:27<@planetmaker>you could make more money by expanding your network instead of micro-managing your trains
11:27<V453000>who cares about an AI ...
11:27<V453000>and why would use an AI which does that
11:27<Core_Xii>since I'm developing one, I sure do
11:27<@planetmaker>AIs can, yes. But... don't play with bad AIs.
11:27<Core_Xii>no, that's GOOD AI
11:28<@planetmaker>or don't write a bad AI
11:28<Core_Xii>it's a fault in OpenTTD's design
11:28<@planetmaker>not really
11:28<Core_Xii>exploiting it is playing well
11:28<V453000>it is a fault in openttds design that your AI does -that- ?
11:28<V453000>OpenTTD is absolutely not about money
11:28<Core_Xii>no, it's a fault in OpenTTD that it's superior and only AI can do it
11:28<Core_Xii>the game part of it is
11:28<@planetmaker>Core_Xii, Rondje does (or at least did) do that
11:28<V453000>sooner or later any player can buy anything
11:28<Core_Xii>I'm uninterested in realism simulations
11:29<V453000>how is the R-word related in this context :d
11:29<@planetmaker>Core_Xii, if an AI does that for its advantage, it deserves that. It's at a disadvantage wrt players anyway
11:29<V453000>if your AI is doing crap, why code it that way? :D
11:29<Core_Xii>it's not crap, it's good play
11:29<Core_Xii>but it's an asymmetry between AIs and human players, which I dislike
11:29<V453000>why is it good playing?
11:30<Core_Xii>because it makes more profit
11:30<V453000>profit is totally irrelevant
11:30<@planetmaker>Core_Xii, purchase = sale price is good design though
11:30<Core_Xii>if you use OpenTTD as a toy, yes, profit is irrelevant
11:30<@planetmaker>you can test a train. and sell it w/o loss really if it doesn't fulfill its purpose
11:30<Core_Xii>but if you play it as a game, profit is everything
11:30<V453000>openttd isnt a game?
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11:30<V453000>what
11:30-!-goodger [~ben@host86-143-75-37.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: goodger]
11:30<@planetmaker>it kills fun if a wrong klick kills the game for you in the starting stages
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11:30<V453000>why would you even care about profit after 1 hour of playing
11:31<V453000>as you can buy literally anything at that point
11:31<Core_Xii>your comment demonstrates how badly OpenTTD sucks as a game
11:31<@planetmaker>So having a huge penalty there... I'd not advise. And thus I think the current design is more rewarding
11:31<V453000>OpenTTD is imo the best game ever made
11:31<@Terkhen>I know that one of you is trolling, but I'm unsure on who
11:31<@planetmaker>whose, Core_Xii ?
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11:31<@planetmaker>Hi Terkhen :-)
11:32<Core_Xii>OpenTTD is a great toy. like SimCity. but it's not a good game at all. games have goals and challenges
11:32<Pikka>I haven't tried it and I couldn't be less interested in this discussion, but can you alter the value of the vehicle with cb36 after it is bought, or does prop 17 only apply to unbuilt vehicles and/or globally to a vehicle ID?
11:32<@Terkhen>:P
11:32<Pikka>hello Terkhen and planetmaker
11:32<@planetmaker>hi Pikka :-)
11:32<@Terkhen>hi ;)
11:32<V453000>Core_Xii: build 3000 trains on 512x512, not challenging enough?
11:33<Core_Xii>that's an arbitrary, player-defined goal
11:33<@Terkhen>Core_Xii: goals are implemented by goal scripts
11:33<@planetmaker>Core_Xii, did you play with e.g. the game script "silicon valley"?
11:33<Core_Xii>not yet
11:33<V453000>no, it is set by the game cause we needed that much thorughput for the cargo produced
11:33<@planetmaker>try that. Then continue to swear about goal absence
11:33<Core_Xii>I'm not swearing about goal absence
11:34<Core_Xii>I'm trying to figure out how to balance an exploit available to AIs only
11:34<V453000>you said there are no goals or challenges?
11:34<@Terkhen>and having said that, player set goals are very valid in my opinion, in the sense that they provide a challenge and a sensation of success
11:34<@Terkhen>depending on the player, of course
11:34<V453000>do not use it for AIs? LOL
11:34*Terkhen reads back to know the exploit
11:34<@planetmaker>Core_Xii, it needs no balancing. I beat every AI there is. Whether it uses that trick or not
11:34<Core_Xii>because AI haven't matured yet
11:34<@planetmaker>Terkhen, rondje trick: buy, send one-way. sell
11:34<@Terkhen>but that was fixed years ago
11:35<Core_Xii>how was it fixed?
11:35<V453000>AIs will never be comparable to human players
11:35<@Terkhen>with the unload fix, I doubt that it is as profitable as it ws in rondje times
11:35<@Terkhen>was*
11:35<V453000>no matter how much you want
11:35<Core_Xii>that's your opinion
11:35<@planetmaker>nah, not that, Terkhen :-) But that it is better to send vehicles one-way
11:35<@Terkhen>it may give you a certain edge, but a smart player will still triumph over the AI
11:35<Core_Xii>only until AIs get smart enough
11:35<@Terkhen>the AI will waste a lot of computer cycles doing that, and they are limited
11:36<@planetmaker>Core_Xii, anyway. I think with the grand scheme you design: this is the least of your worries
11:36<@Terkhen>that level of micromanage will force your AI to stay small
11:36*V453000 awaits for the reults of coding GOD-AI by Core_Xii
11:36<Core_Xii>does it really waste a lot of cycles to 1) duplicate some vehicles, 2) start them?
11:36<@Terkhen>I don't know, I'm no expert in AI code
11:36<@Terkhen>but it wastes more cycles than doing nothing :P
11:36<@planetmaker>^
11:36<Core_Xii>question is, is it more profitable to do it than not
11:37<@planetmaker>possibly
11:37<@Terkhen>in the short term probably, in the long term it is harmful
11:37<Core_Xii>if your trains run empty, doing nothing, half the time, that seems pretty uneconomical
11:37<Core_Xii>basically doubling your running costs
11:37<V453000>you can refit trains to reach up to 100% theoretical full-load time
11:37<@planetmaker>use proper wagons, make them run with different cargos at different ways forth and back
11:37<@planetmaker>--> more profit
11:37<Pikka>or even the same cargo
11:37<@planetmaker>or even that :-)
11:38<V453000>planetmaker: that still totals 50% empty :P
11:38<Core_Xii>that's true. few industry sets allow such back and forth though
11:38<@planetmaker>V453000, how that?
11:38<V453000>yeah, all of them
11:38<Pikka>fine, I'll try it.
11:38<@planetmaker>500 tile journey full. 20 tile to next pickup empty. 500 tiles back full. 20 tiles to original pickup empty
11:38<V453000>pm: well cargo A wagons full on the way back, cargo B wagons on the way there, but still the other half is empty half of the time
11:38<@planetmaker>V453000, auto-refit
11:38<Core_Xii>autorefit
11:38<V453000>:D no comment
11:39<@planetmaker>or even manual in depot. doesn't matter
11:39<@planetmaker>still you got 90% full wagons
11:39<V453000>but lets consider it to be the same as refit for this scenario
11:39<V453000>ye
11:39<@planetmaker>manual as in set in orders
11:39<V453000>depending on station rating,mostly around 90%
11:39<@planetmaker>doesn't need a click
11:39<V453000>yeah sure
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11:40<@planetmaker>the thing which does IMHO need an overhaul are breakdowns
11:40<Pikka>mm newbreakdowns
11:40<V453000>+1
11:40<@planetmaker>It needs imho a scheme where there are no breakdowns when you service regularily.
11:40<@planetmaker>And like now when you don't service them
11:40<V453000>there should be a reward for the player who services properly
11:41<V453000>ye
11:41<@Terkhen>disable breakdowns, done :P
11:41<@planetmaker>yes... but it makes the reliability properties totally useless. Frosch is right there ;-)
11:41<@planetmaker>of course I do that all the time ;-)
11:41<V453000>Core_Xii: http://www.openttdcoop.org/files/publicserver_archive/PublicServerGame_234_Final.sav typical refit game with very high % of loaded trains on the network
11:42<Core_Xii>I know I don't need reference
11:43<@planetmaker>btw, Core_Xii : you brush away Eddi's well-founded hint that it's more reasonable to do the project piecewise.
11:43<@planetmaker>Doing so does not imply - like you suggest - to use different designs for the different NewGRFs
11:44<@planetmaker>It just means that it consists of different modules
11:44<Core_Xii>planetmaker: did you read my reply?
11:44<@planetmaker>yes, I did.
11:44<@planetmaker>it doesn't make sense to me
11:44<Core_Xii>it's not compatible with anything else at the moment, and no part works without the others, so I don't see how it can be split up at all, except for music
11:45<Core_Xii>and maybe UI graphics
11:45<@planetmaker>that's not a counter-argument against what eddi said
11:45<@planetmaker>you will have houses. you will have trains, ships, rv, planes, industries, stations
11:45<@planetmaker>thus that separation into those is kinda natural
11:45<@planetmaker>whether you use a common design or not
11:46<Core_Xii>no it's not
11:46<@planetmaker>and whether it is graphically compatible with anything existing or not. That doesn't change it either
11:46<Core_Xii>what vehicles there are is determined by industries
11:46<@planetmaker>yes, so?
11:47<Core_Xii>so the vehicles, without the industries, don't do anything by themselves
11:47<Core_Xii>and vice versa actually
11:47<V453000>they are vehicles? :D
11:47<V453000>thats all they do
11:47<@planetmaker>correctly speaking vehicles depend on cargo. Not industries ;-) And that still is nowhere an argument to see that monolithic
11:47<V453000>why couldnt they do that separately in a separate newGRF
11:48<Core_Xii>well, why should they?
11:48<Core_Xii>why split up what can be one?
11:48<@planetmaker>maintainability
11:48<@planetmaker>modularity
11:48<@planetmaker>configurability
11:48<V453000>^^^
11:49<@planetmaker>motivation to get one thing "done"
11:49<Core_Xii>modularizing makes maintenance and configuration more difficult, not less
11:50<Core_Xii>modularity makes no sense to begin with; there's nothing to add to this whole
11:50<V453000>either way, I think some uber simplified graphical look could be interesting
11:50<Core_Xii>it will contain everything it should, and nothing more
11:50<@planetmaker>ah well
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11:50<@planetmaker>I guess I have said everything I should. and more ;-)
11:51<Core_Xii>V453000: agreed, this'll be an interesting experiment
11:51<V453000>pretty much pm :d
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11:52<V453000>experiment or not, doing everything at once will be a lot of work
11:52<V453000>making it in smaller parts is a lot better, but up to you
11:52<Core_Xii>I disagree, I think it'll be less work
11:52<@planetmaker>as a rough guide: zbase took a few months. And many things were already existing and were just newly rendered
11:53<Core_Xii>zBase is a different project, it aims to modularly replace 8bit graphics
11:53<Core_Xii>my NewGRF won't "fit in" with any other, it's a whole of its own
11:53<@planetmaker>and that's a base set which does not touch any gameplay aspect
11:53<@planetmaker>and you're wrong there... base sets are not modular
11:53<Core_Xii>(except for music and GUI as mentioned)
11:54<@planetmaker>base sets are "everything". And that is abotu 10000 sprites
11:54<Core_Xii>it seems pretty modular to me... zBase has a new, HD church, right? and a NewGRF can replace it with another graphic if it wants
11:55<Core_Xii>a NewGRF can add town houses on top of zBase, no?
11:55<Core_Xii>same for industries, vehicles, etc....
11:55<@planetmaker>it's a base set... of course every newgrf can do so
11:55<Core_Xii>exactly
11:55<@planetmaker>as can newgrfs add to your newgrf
11:55<@planetmaker>same thing, just different colour
11:55<Core_Xii>technically, yes, but there's no point in doing so
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11:55<Core_Xii>because everything is reduced and/or redesigned
11:55<@planetmaker>is there a point in adding anything to vanilla openttd?
11:56<Core_Xii>well that depends.. as a toy, or a game?
11:57<Pikka>Core_Xii, your base set will also include a new church. A NewGRF can remove the church, replace it, or leave it alone.
11:57<Core_Xii>and mine removes it, yes
11:57<V453000>from what I understand I dont think he wants to make a base set
11:57<Core_Xii>my NewGRF removes absolutely everything that doesn't serve a purpose in it
11:58<@planetmaker>you can't remove rivers ;-)
11:58<Pikka>:)
11:58<@planetmaker>the concept is hard-coded
11:58<V453000>XD
11:58<Pikka>you're not making a base set?
11:58<Core_Xii>...everything it cans :P
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11:58<Pikka>I'm making a base set. it seems to be the right way to go. :)
11:58<Core_Xii>well, define "base set"?
11:58<Core_Xii>I'd say it's a "core set"
11:58<V453000>opengfx, zbase
11:58<V453000>visual only
11:58<@planetmaker>base set is well-defined
11:59<Core_Xii>this is not a visual-only base set
11:59<@planetmaker>it's the essential set of graphics openttd needs
11:59<Core_Xii>I'm changing gameplay a lot
11:59<V453000>Pikka: you making a base set would probably make jaws drop
11:59<@planetmaker>a base set cannot modify game play
11:59<Pikka>V453000, everyone will hate it, especially mb
11:59<Core_Xii>so, define "base set"
11:59<@planetmaker>hehe, Pikka :-)
11:59<V453000>:D
12:00<Core_Xii>my set will modify gameplay, so I guess it's not a base set then?
12:00<@planetmaker>indeed, it cannot be
12:00<V453000>im not sure where base set is defined
12:00<Pikka>http://wiki.openttd.org/Base_graphics
12:00<@planetmaker>it's simply then yet another newgrf ;-)
12:00<V453000>ah
12:00<V453000>what they said ^^
12:01<@planetmaker>that page is soooo ancient, Pikka :-)
12:01<Core_Xii>well yeah, it was a NewGRF from the very start. what else would it be? I'm not patching the engine or anything
12:01<Pikka>yes planetmaker
12:01<Pikka>but it makes it clear what a base set is ;)
12:01<@planetmaker>yep
12:02<@planetmaker>not criticising giving that link. It just ... showed that not all wiki pages are well-maintained ;-)
12:02<V453000>ignore what se said Core_Xii , you are just making a newGRF which changes everything
12:02<Core_Xii>pretty much
12:02<V453000>im quite curious what will come out of your efforts
12:02<Core_Xii>I don't know yet what changing UI graphics and music requires though. can NewGRFs do that?
12:03<@planetmaker>music = music base set
12:03<@planetmaker>sound: yes
12:03<V453000>how is music relevant to gameplay? XD
12:03<Core_Xii>haha, it's not :D
12:03<@planetmaker>UI: limited
12:03<@planetmaker>limited as in you can give everything a new symbol. But you cannot re-arrange anything
12:04<Core_Xii>can you have different colors, borders on buttons, etc.?
12:04<@planetmaker>no
12:04<Core_Xii>aw
12:04<Core_Xii>I guess I'm eventually making a new base set then too
12:04<@planetmaker>they can't do that either
12:04<Core_Xii>bummer
12:05<@planetmaker>everything a base set does can be done by newgrf (with marginal exceptions)
12:05<Pikka>changing the recolour maps used to change some of the window colours, at least :)
12:05<@planetmaker>it still does, Pikka
12:06<@planetmaker>I lied. Somewhat ;-)
12:06<V453000>:D
12:06<V453000>yeah, mauve to black does that :)
12:06<@planetmaker>but it allows for none of the effects Core_Xii really asked for
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12:07<V453000>soo something like gray to wtfcolour would do the same?
12:07<V453000>wwell yeah :)
12:07<Core_Xii>well, GUI and music are pretty orthogonal, so it's not a crisis or anything
12:07<Core_Xii>OpenTTD can play real audio besides just midi, though, right?
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>no
12:08<@planetmaker>nope
12:08<Core_Xii>oh lord
12:08<Ristovski>is anybody else experiencing this bug? when I play a song (OpenMFX) it just cycles through them very quickly
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>Core_Xii: and i think you missed several points i was making
12:08<Ristovski>it doesnt even play any, it just infinity loops at displaying the tittle of every one
12:08<Ristovski>title*
12:08<@planetmaker>Ristovski, that sounds like OpenTTD does not find an audio device
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>Ristovski: usually means your midi drivers is configured the wrong way
12:09<Ristovski>planetmaker: I can hear sounds tho
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>sounds are different
12:09<Ristovski>oh, Eddi|zuHause: then how can I fix it?
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>that depends on your OS
12:09<Ristovski>Linux
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>then install timidity
12:10<Ristovski>Debian to be specific, I also compile OpenTTD
12:10<Ristovski>Eddi|zuHause: "the game music should now play." I can already hear them tho
12:11<Ristovski>oh, read sounds
12:11<Ristovski>sorry!
12:13<@planetmaker>Core_Xii, what would IMHO work well is an approach like we try with OpenGFX/OpenGFX+: a base set which provides the fundamental graphics. And then NewGRFs which modify the gameplay in the individual areas to the desired effect
12:14<Core_Xii>why go through the trouble of modularizing the base graphics when they clash with all others?
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12:15<Eddi|zuHause>they might look different, but it does not necessarily mean they "clash"
12:15<Core_Xii>it really does. you guys don't even grasp how different my set looks
12:15<@planetmaker>reason again is 'maintainability'. Especially also for you
12:15<Ristovski>Eddi|zuHause: that worked, thanks!
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>also what i tried to say: what is when in 5 years someone does a NewGRF in your graphics styles?
12:15<@planetmaker>^^
12:16<Core_Xii>what about it
12:16<Core_Xii>ignoring that there shouldn't be any reason to
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>people can't use it, because they can't turn off the part in your grf
12:16<@planetmaker>*sigh*
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>there might not be a reason NOW
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>but maybe in 5 years there is a reason?
12:16<Pikka>planetmaker: let him do what he wants to do, why do you care? :)
12:16<Core_Xii>if a reason is found, then I've failed in my design
12:17<@planetmaker>"I know how it must work, and no-one can possibly be at any time find reasons to see it differently" :-)
12:17<Core_Xii>but... I'm willing to listen to good arguments
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot predict the future
12:17<@planetmaker>Core_Xii, yes. And the approach of monolithic makes sure the failure cannot be recovered
12:17<Core_Xii>how so?
12:17<Core_Xii>changing a monolithic set should, as far as I can see, be easier than a modular one
12:18<Ristovski>I like how the "Music volume" slider doesnt even work
12:18<Ristovski>lol
12:18<@planetmaker>it's a matter whether a fix needs time of the order of o(N) or o(dN)
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>Ristovski: yeah, it does that :)
12:18<Ristovski>Eddi|zuHause: hmm, Ill try to look at the source later
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>Ristovski: i was told it's not possible
12:18<Ristovski>actually, its taunting me, I must do it now!
12:18<Ristovski>Eddi|zuHause: how so?
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>i never looked into it, really
12:19<Ristovski>its sound->volume right?
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>no
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>sound != music
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>completely separate things
12:20<Ristovski>oh
12:20<goodger>timidity is somewhat difficult to control
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12:21<goodger>it's a strange beast, I think it was designed from the beginning for CLI use and the daemon mode is a bit of an afterthought
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause>[Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2013] [19:55:51] <Eddi|zuHause> hmm... "dbg: [driver] extmidi: set volume not implemented"
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>[Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2013] [19:57:15] <peter1138> it's not
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>[Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2013] [19:57:22] <peter1138> and never will be
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>that was basically the entire discussion :)
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12:23<SpComb>I have a USB sound card with no volume control
12:23<goodger>I wonder if someone with a high-end digital orchestra program could make a wavetable render of the MIDIs, for use as FLACs
12:24<goodger>should be no copyright problems
12:24<SpComb>and >100dB SPL speakers with only +-6dB input trim
12:24<SpComb>setting it up was fun
12:24<SpComb>goodger: there are, somewhere on the forums
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>goodger: what? this is full of copyright problems
12:26<@planetmaker>goodger, that's surely a derivative. And... that's not allowed unless explicitly granted in the license
12:26<goodger>I meant openMSX... is openMSX not GPL-compatible?
12:26<@planetmaker>OpenMSX is licensed under GPL v2, yes
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>MSX, yes. but your soundfont must be as well
12:27<Ristovski>Eddi|zuHause: does it happen in Winderz too?
12:27<Ristovski>i mean windows*
12:27<@planetmaker>there once was a patch to add sound font support to OpenTTD
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12:27<Eddi|zuHause>Ristovski: i have no idea. probably works completely different
12:27<Ristovski>Eddi|zuHause: hmm.. weird
12:28<goodger>commercial "soundfonts" (not that soundfont technology is commonly used now) don't restrict the user's ability to copyright the music they render with it
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12:29<Eddi|zuHause>goodger: but you make a derivative work of a GPLv2 project, so the GPLv2 requires you to include the "sources"
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12:29<Eddi|zuHause>which means the soundfont must be GPLv2-able
12:29<SpComb>really?
12:29<goodger>right; the source is the MIDI file, the soundfont is just part of the compiler
12:29<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: does compiling a binary from GPL sources require you to provider the sources for the compiler?
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: depends on how far you can argue that something is "typically part of the compiler"
12:30<goodger>or how far you can argue that a piece of music has source code
12:31<SpComb>hmm, does the GPL require that compiled binaries are distributable without restrictions
12:31<goodger>it does not
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>goodger: MIDI is perfectly well a programming language
12:31<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: okay, so the digital orchestra software is a compiler
12:31<SpComb>what about a compiler with curious built-in behavior for generating a main() function for a program linking against gpl libraries..
12:32<goodger>that said, the MIDI files would only be imported into the DO program
12:32<SpComb>but yeah, I'd certainly say that an audio file rendered from midi files is a derived work of the midi files
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>goodger: ok, the program is a compiler, but as soon as it can handle more than one exchangable soundfont, that soundfont is not anymore "typical part of the compiler", but some add-on-product
12:34<goodger>wait, where did you get the word "typical" from?
12:35<goodger>this debate is somewhat immaterial since we could just be asking the people who wrote the MIDI files in question
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>"However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable."
12:35<Core_Xii>this "compiler" takes two source files, the MIDI instructions that tell which notes to play, and a SoundFont that tells how each note should sound, and produces an output file of an audio waveform. that, is derivative of both input files
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>(from GPLv2 license)
12:36<Core_Xii>not that I care about copyright
12:36<goodger>from this I gather two things
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12:37<Ristovski>the volume seems to be set, but it doesnt change it for some reason
12:37<@planetmaker>not that it comes to haunt you, the lack of care about copyright
12:39<goodger>firstly, the GPL is almost comically unsuitable for music distribution; secondly, this clause is so ambiguous in this case that no clear resolution is likely ever to happen
12:40<SpComb>yeah, not entirely convinced GPL is a sensible choice for midi files
12:40<SpComb>on the other hand, how common is distribution of midi files in audio form..
12:40<goodger>not very common since MIDI became obsolete
12:41<@planetmaker>SpComb, maybe not the most sensible. But I wanted something which goes easily with OpenTTD. Thus GPL was chosen
12:43<@planetmaker>earlier versions were dual-licensed under gpl2 and ccsp1+
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>maybe CC-BY-SA dual-license would be a better choice?
12:43<@planetmaker>what about commercial usage there?
12:43<@planetmaker>gpl does not restrict that really
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>that would be -NC
12:44<goodger>or planetmaker could just allow the compositions to be rendered as FLACs
12:44<@planetmaker>goodger, no, I can't
12:44<goodger>you're not the sole copyright holder?
12:44<@planetmaker>I'm not the author of any of the pieces. I specifically made sure I got license agreement from each composer / musician
12:44<@planetmaker>for both licenses
12:44<goodger>I see
12:45<goodger>how many of the compositions are licensed under CC?
12:45<@planetmaker>My contribution is making all those pieces into a music set openttd understands. Technically the bundling or how you migth call that
12:45<@planetmaker>I don't know
12:45<@planetmaker>but the documentation might know :-)
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>simplified: CC-BY-SA adds the requirement "must mention name" and drops the requirement "must distribute source code" relative to GPLv2
12:46<@planetmaker>it's years ago I wrote it
12:46<goodger>well, fair enough
12:46<goodger>if many of them are already licensed under CC then we could have them rendered nicely
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it keeps the requirement "must be released under similar license"
12:47<goodger>anyway, I have to go to the pharmacy
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>goodger: discussing licenses with authors often turns to a point where they want either "-ND" or "-NC" applied
12:48<goodger>NC is fine
12:48<@planetmaker>my main motivation back then was to get a set going. I was always hoping that there'll be some person who is much more musical and a much bigger music lover than myself who would give love to some music set
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>which both are unsuitible for open source projects
12:48<goodger>no ND exists for CC
12:49<@planetmaker>or even that set, continuing it to something beautiful
12:49<goodger>or does it...
12:49<Core_Xii>sure it does
12:49<Core_Xii>at least there was a special music license
12:49<@planetmaker>CCSP1+ ;-)
12:49<Core_Xii>that allowed sharing, but not derivative works
12:49<goodger>o hell
12:50<@planetmaker>though... ccsp1+ allows derivatives. but not commercially, iirc
12:50<Core_Xii>nope, ND is part of the standard deal
12:51<goodger>so it is
12:51<Core_Xii>for instance I released some music under BY-ND-NC
12:52<@planetmaker>easiest licenses are CC-BY and CC-SA
12:53<@planetmaker>it saved the TTRS basically
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12:57<@Terkhen>ah, licensing
12:58<Core_Xii>the wiki is a bit inconsistent about what features are/aren't implemented in NML. could someone clarify?
12:59<@Terkhen>with regard to which features is it inconsistent?
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12:59<Core_Xii>someone said only bridges aren't implemented, some page said stations aren't, some page said town houses aren't
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13:00<Core_Xii>the thread first post says basically nothing is implemented yet
13:00<Core_Xii>so some of this info must be outdated
13:01<@Terkhen>are we talking about the forum thread or the wiki?
13:01<Core_Xii>both
13:02<@Terkhen>the wiki should be updated
13:02<@Terkhen>the bridges page does not exist, though
13:02<@Terkhen>and the forum thread should just link to the wiki :P
13:04<Core_Xii>so.. stations and bridges are unimplemented?
13:05<MNIM>yes.
13:05<MNIM>openttd does not have stations or bridges.
13:05<Core_Xii>...?
13:06<Core_Xii>talking about NML here
13:07<@Terkhen>Core_Xii: the station page explicitly says that it is not possible to code a station because the implementation is a work in progress
13:07<@Terkhen>and now the bridge page says the same too
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13:13<@planetmaker>Ristovski, check your e-mail
13:14<Ristovski>ok
13:14<@planetmaker>well. or don't ;-) you can now re-login and start translating
13:14<Ristovski>oh, ok, tho my god my connection is slow
13:15-!-TrueBrain [~truebrain@ip82-139-82-247.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Quit: reboot]
13:16<Ristovski>planetmaker: btw, thanks!
13:16<@planetmaker>np
13:18<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
13:18<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 23 weeks, 2 days, 16 hours, 59 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
13:22<Ristovski>planetmaker: hmm, seems like gotta wait some more
13:23<@planetmaker>why?
13:23<Ristovski>planetmaker: still says im not a translator
13:23<Ristovski>I did relog
13:23<@planetmaker>did you logout?
13:23<Ristovski>yes
13:23<Ristovski>planetmaker: I can see "Macedonian trunk"
13:23<Ristovski>tho, when I press edit, I get "In order to view this section, you need to be a translator."
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13:26<Ristovski>planetmaker: maybe I need to use http://translator.openttd.org/en/signup/?
13:26<Ristovski>seems like the db doesnt recognize me as a translator, tho I am assigned to macedonian
13:27<@planetmaker>try again. first press the logout link which is tiny at the bottom of the page
13:27<Ristovski>I did, but okay, let me try again
13:27<Ristovski>nope, still
13:28<Ristovski>I am assigned to macedonian, tho it says im not a translator
13:28<@planetmaker>how do you know that you're assigned to macedonian, if you're not a translator?
13:28<Ristovski>planetmaker: it says "macedonian/trunk" in the dropdown menu
13:28<Ristovski>tho it says "In order to view this section, you need to be a translator. Please sign up here to become one."
13:30<@Terkhen>Ristovski: in the dropbox, does it say "read only"?
13:30<Ristovski>Terkhen: nope
13:30<@planetmaker>uh, where, Terkhen ?
13:30<Ristovski>only "Macedonian/trunk"
13:31<@Terkhen>planetmaker: in the dropbox you can check all languages, but for those you don't have permissions it adds "(Read only)" at the end
13:31<Ristovski>planetmaker: heres a screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/CBqNz5a.png
13:31<Ristovski>planetmaker: is the db case-sensitive? since my name starts with an capital
13:32<Ristovski>a*
13:32<@Terkhen>Ristovski: did you log out and log in again?
13:32<Ristovski>Terkhen: like 5 times, yes
13:32<@Terkhen>strange
13:32<__ln__>Ristovski: you mean "here's"
13:32<@planetmaker>Ristovski, and you really logged out via the thing in the middle bottom?
13:32<Ristovski>planetmaker: yup
13:32<@planetmaker>hm
13:33<@planetmaker>the user name is case sensitive, afaik, yes
13:33<@planetmaker>and yours is without captital "r"
13:33<Ristovski>it is
13:33<Ristovski>planetmaker: its "Ristovski"
13:33<@planetmaker>hm... maybe not case sensitive :-)
13:33<Ristovski>lol
13:34<Ristovski>logged out again, still doesnt work
13:35<__ln__>Ristovski: you mean "it's"
13:35<Ristovski>...
13:35<@planetmaker>hm. give it some time... dunno. Maybe it needs a few minutes to sync
13:36<Ristovski>planetmaker: Yeah, I was thinking that too
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14:28<Ristovski>planetmaker: lol, still nothing
14:32<@planetmaker>re-start your browser?
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14:42<Eddi|zuHause>Ctrl+F5 if you suspect caching
14:43<@planetmaker>I can only go by what I see and set in phpldapadmin... there it's set
14:45<@planetmaker>totally different, I recently discovered that there's already syntax highlighting definitions for Geany and Notepad++, I added now one for kate as well ;-) http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Getting_started#Syntax_highlighting
14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25109 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2013-03-18 18:45:23 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<@DorpsGek>german - 1 changes by planetmaker
14:45<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
14:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 1 changes by xaxa
14:45<@DorpsGek>swedish - 3 changes by Joel_A
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14:54<andythenorth>lolwut
14:54<andythenorth>andythenorth in #openttd?
14:54<andythenorth>shameful
14:54<Supercheese>:O
14:55*CornishPasty bans andythenorth
14:55<@planetmaker>pfft
14:55<@planetmaker>@voice andythenorth
14:55<@planetmaker>@whoami
14:55<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: I don't recognize you.
14:55<@planetmaker>ui
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14:56<@planetmaker>@op andythenorth
14:56-!-mode/#openttd [+o andythenorth] by DorpsGek
14:56<@planetmaker>try again, CornishPasty ;-)
14:57<frosch123>@op CornishPasty
14:57-!-mode/#openttd [+o CornishPasty] by DorpsGek
14:57<@andythenorth>don't give me op :P
14:57<frosch123>let's make it fair :p
14:57<frosch123>@deop CornishPasty
14:57<@andythenorth>imagine what would happen
14:57-!-mode/#openttd [-o CornishPasty] by DorpsGek
14:57<@andythenorth>same reason I don't want mod on forums :P
14:57<@planetmaker>:D
14:58<CornishPasty>I miss my @ :(
14:58*CornishPasty changes nick to @CornishPasty
14:58<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I need your help in testing eints... I somehow fail to understand how to setup users
14:59<@andythenorth>ho
14:59<@andythenorth>me too :)
14:59<@andythenorth>no alberth?
14:59<@andythenorth>do you have an admin user?
14:59<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/eints/ is what alberth gave me. But...
15:00<@planetmaker>... no single user defined
15:02<@planetmaker>anyway, going by the pngs which alberth gave me there: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/eints/language_overview.png IMHO uses too much vertical space
15:02<@planetmaker>the same info could be put on much less, thus less scrolling for small updates
15:02<@planetmaker>or maybe reverse order: then most important issues are top
15:02<@andythenorth>planetmaker: ./editsilly admin
15:03<@andythenorth>should get you a login
15:03<@planetmaker>how easy :-)
15:04<@andythenorth>if you know :P
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15:13<V453000>oh my god look who is on the top of the list
15:13<V453000>not him
15:14<@andythenorth>?
15:15<V453000>:P
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15:48<@andythenorth>I should add this to HEQS, it's about 200t http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100586&stc=1&d=1363547064
15:48<@andythenorth>biggest log truck right now is 140t :P
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15:53<MNIM>hah
15:53<MNIM>that thing eats long distance haulers for breakfast
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16:08<Ristovski>planetmaker: restarted chrome, ctrl+f5'ed aswell, nothing
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16:08<Ristovski>I blame sql
16:11<Ristovski>planetmaker: shall I try the http://translator.openttd.org/en/signup/ ?
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16:15<@planetmaker>I have the feeling that the result will be an e-mail, Ristovski ;-)
16:15<Ristovski>planetmaker: lol
16:15<Ristovski>then idunno, the db hates me seems like
16:16<Ristovski>planetmaker: hmm, btw, are you the head dev, I dont like when I speak to someone now knowing who he is, you seem like the head admin too
16:16<@planetmaker>neither
16:17<__ln__>Ristovski: you mean "don't"
16:17<Ristovski>...
16:17<Ristovski>planetmaker: well, didnt find your nick on dev list
16:17<@planetmaker>__ln__, he does mean that... but... it's a bit annoying ;-)
16:18<Ristovski>planetmaker: "MacOSX / Support"
16:18<@planetmaker>look again, Ristovski ^
16:18<Ristovski>youre more than that
16:18<@planetmaker>nope
16:18<@planetmaker>I'm 4 bits ;-)
16:18<Ristovski>wat
16:18<@planetmaker>:D just trolling you
16:18<Zuu>andythenorth: They are evaluating log trucks with extra trailers in sweden: http://www.skogforsk.se/sv/Pressrum/ETT---Modulsystem-for-skogstransporter/Pressbilder-ETT-fordonet/
16:19<Ristovski>planetmaker: in the wiki, it says "planetmaker MacOSX / Support"
16:19<@planetmaker>so it says also on the dev page
16:19<@planetmaker>though osx... meh
16:19<Ristovski>is that true, you seem more than just support
16:19<@planetmaker>should delete that
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16:19<V453000>:D
16:19<V453000>:P
16:20<V453000>pm is like your first aid, sometimes also the last aid
16:20<@planetmaker>Ristovski, it#s all a rough guide. Everyone does what he can and wants to do. Within the agreed "limits"
16:20<Ristovski>ah
16:21<@planetmaker>though I really think that caring about translations goes under "support" :-)
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16:21<@andythenorth>Zuu: loads of trees on those trucks :)
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16:25<@planetmaker>holy cow. can it be that the images are huge, Zuu? :D
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16:27<@andythenorth>pretty big yes
16:28<Zuu>planetmaker: Those images are in the press section and possible they though press people want large images.
16:29<@planetmaker>well, they might even be right there :-)
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16:30<Zuu>There are some data here: http://www.skogforsk.se/sv/forskning/Logistik/ETT-Modulsystem-for-Skogstransporter/ETT-En-Trave-Till/
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16:30<Zuu>But only in Swedish.
16:31<Zuu>Basically it says that they allow 90 tonnes instead of 60 for the total weight of the vehicle. Load weight is 64 instead of 38-42.
16:31*andythenorth wonders where the boundary between HEQS and BANDIT is
16:32<@andythenorth>these are on-highway trucks
16:32<@andythenorth>that's BANDIT
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16:32<@andythenorth>@calc 1.5 * 64
16:32<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 96
16:33<Zuu>There is also some test cases where they keep the standard 24 m length but testing with total weights above 60 tonnes.
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17:23<frosch123>night
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17:34<@andythenorth>should the buy menu report auto-refittability?
17:35<@planetmaker>yes
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17:39<@andythenorth>as a newgrf thing, or ottd should do it?
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17:40<@planetmaker>hm :-) good question
17:40<@planetmaker>I think NewGRF must do it
17:40<@andythenorth>'(autorefittable)' | '(refittable)' in capacity string?
17:40<@planetmaker>as openttd cannot decide whether autorefit between to cargos works
17:40<@andythenorth>it's already there, just switch the string according to the property
17:40<@planetmaker>it's in newgrf hands
17:40<@andythenorth>but yes, the ability of newgrf to break autorefit is very bad
17:41<@andythenorth>that should be removed imho
17:41<@andythenorth>cue wailing
17:41<@andythenorth>'nothing must be removed ever, even bad things' :P
17:42<@planetmaker>:-)
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>something broke civ4 :/
17:42<@andythenorth>remove it :P
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>(or civ4col as well)
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>getting lots of "GL_INVALID_FRAMEBUFFER_OPERATION (0x506)" and a black screen
17:44<@andythenorth>cb 15E should stop checking bit 14, and assume it's always set http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Refit_cost_factor_.2815E.29
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>i just tried my backup from before the system update, and there it worked :/
17:44<@andythenorth>anyone who complains we broke their newgrf is wrong :P
17:44<@andythenorth>they are breaking orders currently for players
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you're not making any sense
17:45<@andythenorth>for why?
17:45<@andythenorth>ENoContext? ENoSense?
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>cb 15E does not check anything that the newgrf author did not explicitly specify
17:46<@andythenorth>yes
17:46<@andythenorth>that is the problem
17:46<@andythenorth>author can disallow autorefit according to arbitrary conditions
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>so?
17:46<@andythenorth>which provably breaks vehicle orders, with no feedback
17:47<@andythenorth>it's a dumb feature in retrospect
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>i think you're arguing some non-issue, but i can't be sure
17:47<@andythenorth>I suppose I could also set vehicle speed to 0 according to atrbitrary conditions
17:47<@andythenorth>so same difference
17:47<@andythenorth>maybe non-issue
17:48<@andythenorth>what is the utility of being able to prevent auto-refit in a cb?
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>that graphics don't change mid-transportation, of course... :p
17:50<@andythenorth>and that is more important than having valid orders, of course... :)
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's up to the grf coder to make this a "all or none" thing
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>you might want to have custom refit cost without allowing autorefit at all
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>like, adding/removing articulated parts
17:51<@andythenorth>I honestly think this specific case is too fragile for grf coders
17:51<@andythenorth>I don't think they do it right
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't seen anybody do it at all...
17:52<@andythenorth>pikka does it
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>and?
17:52<@andythenorth>I think ogfx+ does it
17:52<@andythenorth>broken orders
17:52<@andythenorth>FISH 2 did it until I discovered the issue
17:53<@andythenorth>but anyway
17:53*andythenorth leaves it alone
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>i'll play around with backups some more :/
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18:36<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Tue Mar 19 00:00:35 2013