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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-03-29

---Logopened Fri Mar 29 00:00:54 2013
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01:07<GauHelldragon>hi i have a question about the train list interface
01:07<GauHelldragon>what does it mean if a train has a small yellow circle with a green plus sign next to it
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03:38<Eddi|zuHause>GauHelldragon: it's a yellow coin, and it means the train made profit in the last 2 years
03:44<GauHelldragon>thanks
03:51<V453000>isnt it last 1 year? :d
03:51<V453000>I thought it is one of the company performance things, train made + profit last year
03:52<V453000>yellow is 0 - 10000 red is negative, green is 10000+ I think
03:52<V453000>10 000 being the amount set by the performance profit, scale with currency :)
03:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, technically it is "the previous year"
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03:57<Eddi|zuHause>which may be almost a year ago if you are towards the end of the year, so 2 years in total
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04:23<V453000>well yeah but only the previous year counts
04:23<V453000>for the icon indication
04:23<V453000>not the currently running year
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05:39<andythenorth_>Lo
05:41<@Alberth>hi
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06:41<alandarev>anyone experienced with CityBuilder GS?
06:46<@Alberth>I am not, but in general, it's more effective to ask your real question instead of meta questions
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06:47<alandarev>Alberth: yes, but considering the amount of questions I have and their specification regardless configuration of that exact script I would rather bother someone who knows the script I am talking about ;-)
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06:52<frosch123>@seen eddi
06:52<@DorpsGek>frosch123: I have not seen eddi.
06:52<frosch123>@seen eddi*
06:52<@DorpsGek>frosch123: eddi* could be Eddi|zuHause (2 hours, 55 minutes, and 3 seconds ago), Eddi|zuHause2 (7 weeks, 4 days, 13 hours, 53 minutes, and 18 seconds ago), Eddi|zuHause4 (50 weeks, 2 days, 23 hours, 8 minutes, and 41 seconds ago), Eddi|nichZuHause (1 year, 4 weeks, 1 day, 12 hours, 16 minutes, and 21 seconds ago), Eddi|zuHause3 (1 year, 50 weeks, 6 days, 0 hours, 28 minutes, and 2 seconds ago), or (1 more message)
06:55<@Alberth>plenty of eddi s :)
06:57<frosch123>as long as they are not replicating exponentially, it should be fine :)
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07:04<NGC3982>Morning.
07:04<frosch123>afternoon
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07:07<alandarev>In setting Game SCript parameters I need to set: Cargo ID Representing Food/Water/Passangers/Mail where can I find that? :)
07:08<frosch123>intro gui
07:08<frosch123>script settings
07:08<frosch123>settings
07:09<NGC3982>I have not played in weeks.
07:09<NGC3982>:(
07:09<alandarev>frosch123: eh?
07:09<alandarev>frosch123: I am in settings window, but I don't know what ID cargo food has
07:10<frosch123>what silly script asks for a cargo id in the gui? :o
07:10<frosch123>well, look at the industry set you are using then
07:10<frosch123>if you are lucky it tells in its documentation
07:10<alandarev>frosch123: default... It is CityBuilder GameScript
07:11<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoDefaultProps <- for default industries, try the "slot" column
07:12<alandarev>frosch123: thank you
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07:13<frosch123>anyway, tell the author to use cargo labels to identify cargos
07:15<alandarev>frosch123: I think that is made for compatibility with custom industry sets. so I can set "Town should require cargo ID 26 100 per 1000 pop" where 26 will bei mplemented by custom industry vector
07:15<alandarev>frosch123: that is great, and he gave a warning in readme that configuration is complex :D
07:16<frosch123>well, once we implement dynamic cargos, it will break :p
07:17<alandarev>dynamic cargos? sounds interesting but no idea what stands behind it
07:18<frosch123>currently you can only use a single industry set
07:18<frosch123>multiple sets will conflict because they use the same fixed cargo ids
07:18<alandarev>ah I see
07:18<frosch123>to make multiple industry sets work, you have to remove the "fixedness"
07:19<alandarev>sounds like a right direction :) But indeed will make a life for the script owner harder...
07:19<alandarev>I'll copy last 6 messages to the script topic, ok?
07:19<@Alberth>no, it's easier, you get nice labels to identify a cargo instead of a magic number
07:20<@Alberth>alandarev: alternatively link to a log
07:21<alandarev>"need to be approved by a moderator" mean people :(
07:21<alandarev>where is freedom of speech! :D
07:24<peter1139>so i was watching cpcgrey2's videos for a while, and then saw this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm1dD9h-ExA
07:25<frosch123>hmm, watching people play ottd without hotkeys is annoying
07:25<peter1139>aye
07:26<frosch123>maybe he uses some
07:26<frosch123>you do not see every click
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07:30<alandarev>does OpenGFX+ Industries introduce any new industry or is just improving existing ones?
07:31<frosch123>it allows you to add industries from other climates
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07:31<frosch123>you can pick different chains from different climates, and recompose them
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07:31<LordAro>moin
07:32<alandarev>frosch123: and obvious question, what will happen if their ID's collide?
07:35<frosch123>one wins
07:35<frosch123>and you end up with steel mills producing pigs
07:35<alandarev>:D
07:39<LordAro>what was that bug, that was fixed a while ago, that could make planes look like houses?
07:39<LordAro>i always thought that would be fun to play with :)
07:39<frosch123>i do not remember such bug
07:40<LordAro>i'll see if i can find it
07:40<LordAro>iirc, the bug was fixed before anyone knew about it, but still :)
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07:48<alandarev>I can no longer find difficulty settings in 1.3 :(
07:48<frosch123>the difficulty profiles were removed
07:49<frosch123>the settings are in the normal adv. settings dialog now
07:50<andythenorth>"we should choose not pointy them these buses"
07:50<andythenorth>Foster MKII bus is too slopey :P
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08:01<alandarev>can I see cargo ID of a cargo in-game using some console commands?
08:04<@Alberth>maybe with the newgrf debugging gui, but no idea
08:04<frosch123>you could write a gamescript to print it :p
08:04<@Alberth>:)
08:05<@Alberth>or patch the script to use labels :)
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09:45<alandarev>Disasters? Cn anyone explain me what Disasters in OpenTTD are like :)
09:46<LordAro>virtually non-existant :)
09:46<LordAro>existent*
09:46<HellTiger>maybe a plane crash?
09:47<alandarev>HellTiger: it's a sepparate setting
09:47<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Disaster
09:47<HellTiger>ah
09:47<@Alberth>it's all at the wiki, except perhaps not entirely up-to-date :)
09:47<alandarev>Alberth: ah that looks funny :D Maybe I should enable
09:48<@Alberth>most are nice, big ufo is a PITA
09:49*LordAro has never seen the submarine or the small ufo
09:49<@Alberth>you didn't play enough with disasters enabled :p
09:50<LordAro>i don't think i was aware you could turn them off, most of the time i played
09:51<NGC3982>Excuse me, a submarine in OpenTTD?
09:51<alandarev>It is disabled by default
09:53<LordAro>alandarev: i have been playing (O)TTD(P) since 1999, and they weren't off by default back then ;)
09:53<NGC3982>Seriosly, it exists?
09:53<NGC3982>:D
09:53<@Alberth>yeah, it's enabled by default
09:54<@Alberth>NGC3982: you should also play more openttd :p
09:54<alandarev>LordAro: but but.. I just installed OpenTTD and the disaster is disabled
09:54<NGC3982>You guys never seem to suprise me.
09:54<@Alberth>it's inherited from the original
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11:00<HellTiger>hm my first electric train has disapeared
11:00<HellTiger>i have to fall back to steam diesel engines
11:00<HellTiger>why?
11:02<LordAro>what year is it?
11:03<HellTiger>lobster:
11:03<HellTiger>LordAro: 1974
11:09<LordAro>bad nick autocompletion, you've woken the lobster now :P
11:10<LordAro>HellTiger: you should have electric engines by that date
11:10<LordAro>any grfs?
11:12<HellTiger>default install lobster
11:12-!-alandarev [~alandarev@5ac840b3.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
11:12<HellTiger>LordAro: i mean, sorry.
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11:13<HellTiger>its also a default settings game
11:15<LordAro>odd
11:15<LordAro>keep playing, there might just be a 'gap' in availability
11:15<LordAro>ask on the forums also
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11:19<@Alberth>read the readme :)
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11:45<HellTiger>lol i even cant build electric railways any more :D
11:46<HellTiger>1975
11:47<HellTiger>LordAro: do you think i should look for a bug?
11:48<HellTiger>or just wait for reapiring of electric things
11:49<NGC3982>Hey, where's Eddi.
11:50<NGC3982>@seen eddi*
11:50<@DorpsGek>NGC3982: eddi* could be Eddi|zuHause (7 hours, 52 minutes, and 43 seconds ago), Eddi|zuHause2 (7 weeks, 4 days, 18 hours, 50 minutes, and 58 seconds ago), Eddi|zuHause4 (50 weeks, 3 days, 4 hours, 6 minutes, and 21 seconds ago), Eddi|nichZuHause (1 year, 4 weeks, 1 day, 17 hours, 14 minutes, and 1 second ago), Eddi|zuHause3 (1 year, 50 weeks, 6 days, 5 hours, 25 minutes, and 42 seconds ago), or (1 more message)
11:50<@Alberth>infra structure building is by default connected to presence of vehicles that use that type of infra structure
11:51<@Alberth>you can switch that connection off, but there is not much point in doing that, imho
11:52<NGC3982>Sim City 3000 is unplayable
11:52<NGC3982>Sim City 4 is fine, i completed >profit at first try. I have yet to run a Sim City 3000 game without bancrupcy.
11:52<NGC3982>:(
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11:56<LordAro>HellTiger: make a post on the forus with your savegame, see if people can help you there
11:57<HellTiger>ok
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12:41<Bonez305>I have a server set up for 512x512 map, would it go over 1gb of RAM?
12:42<LordAro>depends on how many vehicles there are
12:42<Bonez305>How could one calculate RAM usage?
12:43<Bonez305>As far as vehicles are concerned.
12:45<LordAro>i'm no expert, but i suspect you can't, easily
12:45<NGC3982>If i remember correctly, installing OpenTTD from the aptitude repositories is not recommended?
12:46<LordAro>you could of course set up a test map for yourself, cheat yourself some money, and set up as many vehicles as you can
12:46<NGC3982>(As far as dedicated server goes)
12:46<LordAro>NGC3982: i wouldn't say not recommended, but it is liable to be out of date
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12:46<Bonez305>NGC3982: well I installed from the actual deb file.
12:46<LordAro>yes, you can get a .deb from openttd.org
12:46<Bonez305>Bonez305: the apt rep. gave me a 1.0.4 install i believe
12:47<NGC3982>Last time i tried it out, i made a complete mess of it ;).
12:47<Bonez305>lol @ click myself.
12:47<NGC3982>LordAro: I see. Thanks.
12:48<Bonez305>I'm running 100mb of Ram without anything on the map right now
12:48<NGC3982>Afaik, you can mave many - many vehicles before RAM becomes an issue.
12:48<V453000>there should be a warning when generating more than 1000x1000 map
12:49<V453000>like "be very surprised when your pc suffers"
12:49<NGC3982>>1000^2 gives my computer a stroke.
12:52<@Alberth>it's too big to be useful any way
12:54<NGC3982>In the Linux version of OpenTTD, where can i find the readme?
12:55<NGC3982>Never mind, found it on the wiki.
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12:59<Bonez305>crap, so no trains till 1930?
12:59<Bonez305>i messed up again
13:00<LordAro>not by default
13:00<LordAro>(don't blame the devs, blame mr sawyer) :P
13:01<NGC3982>Hm, this did not work as planned. I downloaded v1.2.3 from the site (for Ubuntu 12.04) and also installed liblzo2-2. i followed the instructions in the readme telling me to put OpenGFX-0.4.6.tar.gz in ~/.openttd/baseset.
13:01<NGC3982>Running a dedicated server still gives me the "You don't have the graphics baseset" error message.
13:01<@Alberth>.gz files are not readable by openttd
13:02<NGC3982>"There's no need to unpack the tar, so just leave it as it is."
13:02<NGC3982>That explains it, i did not recognice the .gz.
13:02<@Alberth>ie gzip -d OpenGFX-0.4.6.tar.gz
13:03<NGC3982>And it works. Neato.
13:03<NGC3982>Last (and my first) time i tried installing OpenTTD on a Linux system, i was this close *showing* to have peter1139 travel to Sweden, just to strangle me to death.
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13:10<LordAro>i still don't understand why a dedicated server requires a graphics baseset
13:11<@Alberth>for all vehicle properties other than pretty pictures
13:12<@Alberth>iirc there is also a version where all images have size (0,0)
13:13<LordAro>surely those sort of properties shouldn't be included with the baseset?
13:13<LordAro>or is it just legacy support?
13:21-!-Anpan [~kvirc@pD9E1D4B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
13:21<Anpan>Hello
13:21<@Alberth>hmm, I am not even sure there are properties in the base set
13:22<@Alberth>hi Anpan
13:23<Anpan>I have a small problem and I just can't find the solution in the wiki. I have a station with two coal mines in it's reach and at any given time there's a train loading in the station. However, it appears I cannot get the coal mines over ~72% transported
13:23<Anpan>And I have no clue how to fix this
13:25<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Station_rating explains how the rating is calculated
13:27<Anpan>There isn't any cargo getting lost in the station (since a train always immediately picks it up). This is why I am so confused as to where the missing 30% of the coal mines go
13:28<NGC3982>Hey, how is CityVille 2 for a game?
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13:28<@Alberth>the coal mine arranged other forms of transport for the other 30%
13:28<NGC3982>LordAro: I guess there are reasons for it, but i really don't understand why the Linux version comes without the OpenGFX/MSX/SFX files.
13:29<Anpan>Alberth: But there aren't any other forms of transport near the coal mine. No streets, ships or planes nearby
13:29<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/c23P3wP.jpg
13:29*NGC3982 likes.
13:29<LordAro>NGC3982: iirc, there have been many discussions about that :) i think the conclusion that was reached was that not everyone wanted them, so they weren't 'enforced'
13:30<LordAro>i believe those packages are 'recommended' though
13:30<LordAro>but i think package managers generally hide those packages though
13:30<NGC3982>I see. :)
13:30<NGC3982>I guess it goes beyond my Unix knowledge.
13:31<@Alberth>NGC3982: the graphics are HUGE compared to the openttd binaries, so it would eat a lot of bandwidth
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13:31<@Alberth>also the graphics are not updated that often, so you don't need a new version with every new Openttd
13:32<@Alberth>so to keep our server costs down, they are not included.
13:32<NGC3982>That sounds very logical
13:32<NGC3982>And i didn't really think about the fact that one would want to update every now and then.
13:32<@Alberth>ie openttd 5MB versus 230MB for zbase
13:33<@Alberth>ie for MP you usually need the latest stable, so 4-5 times a year easily
13:33<NGC3982>That builds up to a fair lot of data.
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13:36<Anpan>So.. no one knows why my coal mines don't go over 70% transported, even though there is always a train in the station loading up any cargo the station gets?
13:37<NGC3982>Loading up != Moving coal from the industry.
13:37<Anpan>or is the station rating somehow the upper limit for the "transported" value of industry
13:37<@Alberth>Anpan: because your rating is 70%
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13:37<@Alberth>improve it by doing what the program cares about
13:37<Superuser>guys, some really bad strings in OTTD trunk
13:37<Superuser>horrible grammatical and spelling errors
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13:38<Superuser>for the english version
13:38<Superuser>I can make a patch file if you want and an issue, but something tells me it will lie around for weeks like the other one
13:40<@Alberth>add it to the other one :)
13:41<@Alberth>spelling errors should be quite trivial
13:42<Superuser>yeah, I've moaned about it again and again and it still hasn't been accepted :(
13:42<Superuser>heck I even made a patch file as someone requested but nothing :/
13:42<Superuser>I just hope this will get in on time for 1.3
13:42<__ln__>Superuser: has it been 4 months yet?
13:42<@Alberth>but the other ones are more difficult. Given that we believed the original strings were good, you claim yours are better, but how do we verify that?
13:42<Anpan>hmm it appears that the station rating really does limit the amount of cargo transported away from the mines. That doesn't make any sense to me, since cargo doesn't fall out of the train because of that but I guess I can't do anything about that
13:43<Superuser>I ran them through with #openttd first
13:43<Superuser>every single one
13:43<Superuser>discussed them meticulously
13:43<@Alberth>Anpan: you don't get everything that the mine produces
13:43<Superuser>and secondly, I know I am right because I am always righty
13:43<Superuser>s/right/righty
13:43<Anpan>Alberth: but they don't have any other means of transportation. Do they just flush it down the toilet? *confused*
13:44<@Alberth>Anpan: yes, whatever you want to believe, they do
13:45<@Alberth>Anpan: the program just shows your view on the world, rather than the complete view with vehicles you don't care about
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13:45<@Alberth>if that makes you more convinced :)
13:45<Anpan>Alberth: hmm. Well, I guess I finally see a point in building statues, then xD
13:46<@Alberth>Anpan: or be happy with 70%, and spend your time and money on another mine :)
13:48<Anpan>Alberth: I just want over 80% to get fastest possible growth :) Which I now achieved looking at how ratings are calculated. I like to pay attention to one or two stations first, get it running smoothly and then expand into other areas
13:48<Superuser>aww shit Alberth, can you commit the other one first? I lost the files as it seems
13:48<Superuser>and cba redownloading
13:49<Superuser>and learning how to use diff again
13:53<NGC3982>Can loans be disabled by config?
13:56<Superuser>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5496?project=1&opened=2269
13:56<Superuser>come onnn
13:56<Superuser>I will love if you do this
13:56<Superuser>meanwhile -afk
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13:58<Bonez305>from the box how can i change the password to a company?
13:58<Bonez305>bastard stole my company while i was AFK lol
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14:16<LordAro>http://www.xkcd.com/1190/ is _still_ going!
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14:27<Superuser>please you guys
14:28<Superuser>and yes I'm back
14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25127 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-03-29 18:45:19 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<@DorpsGek>galician - 294 changes by Michi
14:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 8 changes by Evropi
14:45<@DorpsGek>welsh - 65 changes by kazzie
14:45<Superuser>hellooooooooooo?
14:58<HellTiger>hm after there is no money problem
14:58<HellTiger>will you come into any trouble?
14:58<HellTiger>i am still not familar with the open end feeling
14:59<Superuser>could do
14:59<Superuser>industries might shut down
14:59<HellTiger>ist just to connect all industry for e
14:59<Superuser>if you don't fulfill supply chain
14:59<HellTiger>hm
14:59<Superuser>anyway if you're spinning millions of dollars anually, you won't have a problem
14:59<Superuser>you will win, don't you worry :)
14:59<HellTiger>so when you drop a map then
15:00<HellTiger>ah wait
15:00<Superuser>most people in multiplayers games are noobs anyway
15:00<HellTiger>there was a winning condition
15:00<Superuser>multiplayer*
15:00<HellTiger>what is default unchanged thing?
15:00<HellTiger>2050?
15:00<Superuser>yeah
15:00<HellTiger>then get a score?
15:00<Superuser>see the league table
15:00<HellTiger>oah.
15:00<Superuser>scores change throughout the game
15:00<Superuser>it's worth looking at the detailed breakdown too
15:00<Superuser>to see what actually makes people win
15:00<Superuser>money is less relevant than you might tihnk
15:01<HellTiger>ok
15:01<HellTiger>Superuser: do you know how long a unpaused game will take time?
15:03<HellTiger>and why should i increase map size
15:03<HellTiger>as single player
15:07<Bonez305>from 1950 to 2050 i believe its 22.5 hours
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15:14<Superuser>I dunno but I usually start at 1960
15:14<Superuser>cos 1950s are boring
15:14<Superuser>1970 is a bit unfair though as planes are allowed
15:15<Superuser>and as soon as one player gets planes the game is effectively decided in their favour
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15:38<@Alberth>set max number of planes to 0 :)
15:39<@Alberth>I can see the use for uppercase 's' with the ships, have some trouble with the 'effect' removal, and a whole lot of trouble with 'schedule'
15:39<frosch123>someone read an interlaced image with libpng before? :)
15:40<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: is printing "processing of interlaced png images not supporting" and aborting encoding an acceptable fix for 5276?
15:41<@Alberth>and the difference of n versus N also does not strike me as a good change, even if it may be correct
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16:03<+michi_cc>frosch123: http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/libpng-1.2.5-manual.html#section-3.8 tells you how to :)
16:03<frosch123>yeah, read that :)
16:04<frosch123>but i guess i have to do trial-and-error whether i have to call readrows for 8 rows even if the file has only 4 rows
16:04<HellTiger>so anyone plays also simutrans beside?
16:06<+michi_cc>I understood that part that png_set_interlace_handling() tells you the number of passes.
16:06<frosch123>yeah, but is passes = number of rows? :)
16:06<frosch123>if i read a image not as a whole, can i only read multiples of passes rows?
16:07<+michi_cc>Isn't the row number just the image height?
16:08<frosch123>i do not want to read all lines at once
16:09<+michi_cc>So the code is currently calling png_read_row(), right?
16:09<frosch123>yes, which does not work for interlaced images
16:09<frosch123>i have to use png_read_rows
16:09<frosch123>currently i am going to try to read num_passes rows at once
16:10<Superuser>anyone know how to batch resize images with imagemagic? Want to maintain ratio and shit though
16:10<Superuser>like is it possible to put them in a folder and let it do its magic
16:11<__ln__>*imagemagick
16:11<Superuser>Yes, heil grammatik indeed
16:11<+michi_cc>Well, the txt manual has an example for manual deinterlacing: http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/libpng-manual.txt (search for "de-interlace the image")
16:11<Superuser>any answers beyond just OCD about the question?
16:14<__ln__>you can simply use a bash one-liner to make imagemagick to do whatever you want to all files. aspect ratio is maintained automatically.
16:21<frosch123>michi_cc: that still does not tell me how to only read some rows
16:22<frosch123>i suspect i can only read multiple of 8 rows at a time, by calling read_rows 7 times
16:22<frosch123>i get the number 7 from png_set_interlace_handling
16:22<frosch123>but where do i get the 8 from? :p
16:28<+michi_cc>Looking at the file format itself I think it is impossible to just read some rows from an interlaced png image. The 8 sub-images seem to be stored sequentially in the png file, starting with the smallest, and libpng (and probably the png format itself) only allow you to do sequential reading.
16:29<frosch123>oh, good point
16:29<frosch123>yeah, it only makes sense that way :s
16:30<+michi_cc>So no way to just jump to a row in each sub-image. The only thing you could do is using png_read_row combined with the described manual de-interlacing, which avoids having to allocate memory for the whole image (but you still need to process it).
16:31<frosch123>well, then i have to scan the whole file for every row :p
16:31<frosch123>so, yeah, for interlaced images you can only read the whole image at once
16:36<Superuser>I just did them all manualle __ln__, but thatnks anyway
16:36<Superuser>the up arrow is my hero
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18:39<Eddi|zuHause>thanks, frosch123, now at least i know what the difference between the images is :)
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>a bugfix release would be useful now, to have it eventually ripple down to places where it's used
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>hm, the changelog on http://www.openttd.org/en/download-grfcodec isn't very... meaningful
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21:43<GauHelldragon>pineapples look so weird
21:48<DDR>Yuy.
21:48<DDR>Yup.
21:48<GauHelldragon>they look like they are fake
22:05<HellTiger>radioactive space vegetables
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22:48<erebus>At what length is a truck feeder better than a train feeder?
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22:54<GauHelldragon>:o what is a train feeder
---Logclosed Sat Mar 30 00:00:56 2013