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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-04-04

---Logopened Thu Apr 04 00:00:04 2013
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02:30<__ln__>g o o d m o r n i n g
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02:34*TWerkhoven replaces __ln__'s batteries
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04:08<Eddi|zuHause>which crazyperson renamed the page to "Compiling on (GNU/)Linux"? the redirection on the wiki is totally confused...
04:11<TinoDidriksen>History will reveal that, surely.
04:15<__ln__>http://wiki.openttd.org/?title=GNU/Linux&action=history
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04:17<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, two consecutive redirects don't seem to work
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04:18<Eddi|zuHause>the FAQ links to this page: http://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Compiling_on_Linux&redirect=no
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>which redirects you to the "GNU/Linux" page, and stops there
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04:23<@planetmaker>NG is oberhumer
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>"Disney closes LucasArts"
04:24<@planetmaker>good morning
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>i should have known that :)
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04:24<Eddi|zuHause>i just fixed the redirect for now, to remove the intermediate step
04:25<@planetmaker>thx
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04:25<Eddi|zuHause>but i find the page title totally awkward
04:25<@planetmaker>I'd switch redirect and page, tbh
04:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i won't do that now
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08:40<Celestar>morning
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08:43<Sacro>Morning Celestar
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09:04<Ristovski>hmm "view bounding box structure" shortcut doesnt work
09:04<Ristovski>and yes, I do have "bounding_boxes = CTRL+B"
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09:06<V453000>what do you need that for :d
09:08<Ristovski>V453000: I never actually saw what it does
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09:09<Eddi|zuHause>Ristovski: it only works with developer tools active
09:09<Ristovski>Eddi|zuHause: huh?
09:09<Ristovski>whcih ones
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>the newgrf ones, i suspect
09:09<Ristovski>Eddi|zuHause: hmm, I think I have them
09:10<V453000>I honestly dont even understand what to use that for regarding newgrf development
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>i used that to find out how vehicle movement works
09:12<V453000>but it shows diagonal vehicles as little boxes
09:12<V453000>:s
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes. bounding boxes cannot be rotated
09:13<Ristovski>how do I even enable that?
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>Ristovski: if you don't know that, you don't need it
09:13<Ristovski>lol
09:14<V453000>its true
09:18<Sacro>I hate finding bugs in our software
09:18<Sacro>:\
09:18<Sacro>sleep based throttling causes the tcp buffer to fill
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>you'd rather search for them forever, instead of actually finding them?
09:23<V453000>:)
09:23<V453000>indeed
09:27<@Belugas>hello
09:28<V453000>hai
09:29<V453000>dark lord of unrealism? :)
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09:34<oskari89>@seen DanMacK
09:34<@DorpsGek>oskari89: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 15 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
09:36<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
09:36<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 25 weeks, 5 days, 13 hours, 17 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
09:36<Sacro>@seen Eddi|zuHause
09:36<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Eddi|zuHause was last seen in #openttd 14 minutes and 57 seconds ago: <Eddi|zuHause> you'd rather search for them forever, instead of actually finding them?
09:36<Sacro>ooh
09:36<V453000>lol
09:36<oskari89>Seems DanMacK has a little break from here :P
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember DanMacK being here regularly
09:53<V453000>well I guess this thread is now officially dead :D
09:53<V453000>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=64856
10:28<@Belugas>V453000: that is just a legend...
10:28<@Belugas>i think
10:28<@Belugas>am i?
10:40<Sacro>it disturbs me very sprites
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11:44<Eddi|zuHause>something is very wrong with the forums. the overview tells me there's a reply here from 16:06, but when i click on "go to new posts", nothing is there, only my post from 16:01. and it won't mark the topic as read
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=64999&p=1072516#p1072516
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>it's like a stale reference to a post that was deleted or something
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13:40<frosch123>moin
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25142 /trunk/src/lang (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-04-04 17:45:19 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>esperanto - 3 changes by potwor
13:45<@DorpsGek>faroese - 300 changes by FastNinja
13:45<@DorpsGek>galician - 125 changes by Michi
13:45<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 22 changes by Yoursnotmine
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14:06<@Terkhen>hello
14:08<frosch123>they are all gone
14:08<frosch123>it's just me, you and dorpsgek :)
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14:39<@Alberth>hello frosch123 and DorpsGek (and Terkhen)
14:39<frosch123>hi albert :)
14:43<V453000>MOO
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14:43<Wolf01>hello :D
14:44<@Alberth>hi hi
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15:01<andythenorth>lo
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15:10<V453000>my
15:10<V453000>mu
15:10<V453000>moo
15:11<frosch123>let's just declare that unicorns do moo
15:11<frosch123>i like moos
15:12<V453000>:D
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>moo3 was totally overhyped, though
15:13<frosch123>when was moo3?
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>before i played OpenTTD, i think
15:14<V453000>wtf is moo3 :d
15:14<frosch123>a space colonisation game
15:14<frosch123>which involves designing your own species
15:15*andythenorth is resisting ksp
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>the alleged successor to moo2
15:15<frosch123>though it's only know that i realise that you cannot give them horns
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15:15<andythenorth>will I or won't I start playing KSP? https://kerbalspaceprogram.com
15:16<frosch123>isn't arolard already playing that?
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i'll be playing that
15:19*andythenorth downloads the demo
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15:48<andythenorth>meh
15:48<andythenorth>can't figure out KSP
15:57<@Rubidium>evening
15:59<andythenorth>hi
16:01<@Alberth>evenink
16:03-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
16:06<andythenorth>bye
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16:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25143 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2013-04-04 20:08:52 UTC)
16:08<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5496]: several typos/inconsistencies in English strings (Evropi, kazzie)
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16:15<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25144 trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt (2013-04-04 20:15:51 UTC)
16:15<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r25143): one of the changes strings was used in the regression test, which subsequently failed
16:36<Wolf01>'night
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16:37<Eddi|zuHause>oh we long had no "forgot to update regression" commits :p
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17:01<@Terkhen>good night
17:02<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25145 /extra/musa (5 files) (2013-04-04 21:02:00 UTC)
17:02<@DorpsGek>[musa] -Add: Support for uploading of AI, AI Library, GS, GS Library, Scenario and Heightmaps using musa
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17:05<Steve^>Hi, I would like some suggestions for `complete` train sets that would be good for a single player game
17:07<Zuu>NUTS
17:07<Zuu>It even have WETRails - ships on rails :-)
17:08<Steve^>oh dear
17:08<frosch123>yeah, if "complete" is your only criterion
17:08<frosch123>nuts might be the best, it has everything :)
17:08<Steve^>Well, I want something with a set of trains, that are released overtime
17:09<Steve^>like the original set.. but new
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17:09<Zuu>NUTS do that
17:09<Steve^>Yea.. but.. look at it.... :P
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>probably no other train set is "complete" in the sense of "it contains everything the author intended to include"
17:09<frosch123>about every trainset does that
17:09<Zuu>I've played with NUTS and I kind of like it.
17:10<frosch123>Steve^: you told us no criterion
17:10<Zuu>Otherwise I used to play a lot with UKRS.
17:10<frosch123>there are about 50 trainsets, which could be considered more or less complete
17:11<Steve^>I have only tried one thus far, 2cc, but it gives you.. everything.. it's not very good for a typical playthrough
17:11<Steve^>I wanted some personal perspective on what works well
17:11<frosch123>2cc has only pax trains :p
17:12<V453000>NUTS and UKRS are best in my opinion as well
17:12<FLHerne>Steve^: UKRS2 (and UKRS2+) is awesome
17:12<Steve^>Otherwise I can browser forum topics and pick at random
17:12<Steve^>but many forum topics don't have first posts that sell the products
17:12<Steve^>no decent pictures
17:12<FLHerne>I quite like NARS, but it hasn't been worked on for a while and has a few quirks
17:12<FLHerne>Steve^: Have you seen the screenshot subforum?
17:12<V453000>nobody needs to sell any product here Steve^ :)
17:13<frosch123>V453000: esp. not you :p
17:13<FLHerne>That tends to have good examples of most grfs in use ;-)
17:13<V453000>why not me? :d
17:13<Steve^>The Japan Railways set looks well constructed
17:14<V453000>japan is fun but is really passenger only ... cargo trains are nice but slow which tends to be boring
17:15<V453000>if you wanted to see what NUTS contains, see nuts.openttdcoop.org
17:15<Steve^>hmm, I was thinking going cargo - this is exactly the info I'm looking for! :)
17:15<FLHerne>V453000: Cargo is *meant* to be slow! :P
17:16<Steve^>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3593/EngineTable.png suggests it is very balanced
17:16<V453000>that is realistic bullshit
17:16<FLHerne>If you want fast cargo, send it by helicopter :P
17:16<V453000>it is very balanced. :)
17:16<Steve^>balanced is unrealistic, I suppose :)
17:16<FLHerne>V453000: Realism =/= bullshit
17:16<V453000>that is what the U stands for
17:16<V453000>NUTS Unrealistic Train Set
17:16<Steve^>yea I got that
17:16<V453000>FLHerne: realism == bullshit ^ 2
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17:17<FLHerne>V453000: You're a little bit biased there :P
17:17<V453000>nope
17:17<V453000>if you say that cargo trains are meant to be slow because reason 0, it is b.s.
17:17<Steve^>but but toyland
17:17<Steve^>I just can't do it!
17:17<V453000>because variety of speeds and faster trains are more entertaining in the game
17:18<V453000>you dont have to do toyland? :d it is just an option
17:18<frosch123>Steve^: toyland is very nice with a non-default landscape set
17:18<FLHerne>V453000: Cargo should be slow because it's fun to watch trains overtake other trains :-)
17:18<frosch123>toyland is way underrated
17:18<V453000>frosch123: toyland without ttd baseset isnt toyland but temperate :s
17:18<V453000>FLHerne: mixing train speeds is quite stupid
17:18<Steve^>times have changed
17:18<frosch123>V453000: toyland with ttd baseset is only playable if you are colorblind
17:19<V453000>but if you hate toyland landscape and colours and stuff, use toyland to mars conversion :)
17:19<V453000>frosch123: I play that rather often and I am not colourblind (yet) :))
17:19<frosch123>the terrain is way too checked to look at it without tearing eyes
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17:19*FLHerne loves having Fast and Slow lines, and then agonising over how to arrange fast freight and stopping pax
17:20<frosch123>V453000: i love the toy factory way too much
17:20<frosch123>note that the ogfx toyshop is way better than the ttd one
17:20<FLHerne>V453000: Stupid from ultimate-throughput-at-all-costs perspective, but not all ;-)
17:20<frosch123>yellow ducks are way cuter than grey robots
17:20<V453000>the robots are red
17:20<frosch123>are they? maybe they are company coloured then
17:21<V453000>who was talking about ultimate throughput, if your stuff jams it just jams
17:21<V453000>no, red. :)
17:21<V453000>you are colourblind
17:21*frosch123 starts ottd to check
17:22<FLHerne>V453000: Speed differentials don't cause jamming. If you timetable it properly, they don't even cause excessive stop/starting
17:22<V453000>I even drew those as a cargo... :)
17:22<FLHerne>Just poor throughput, which is rarely an issue
17:22<V453000>if you timetable it properly it means you are timetabling a speed limit, meaning it is not mixing speeds. timetabling by a time fails sooner or later
17:23*Zuu sees a red robot
17:24<Zuu>or human looking plastic toy
17:24<V453000>something red with yellow decoration and pink eye. :)
17:25<Steve^>they look so ridiculous
17:25<Steve^>you all went mad
17:25<V453000>nuttah?
17:26<FLHerne>V453000: Have you actually tried? :P
17:27*FLHerne gets very few serious network issues caused by trains catching each other up
17:27<V453000>about 4 years ago, perhaps once, yes. Logically there are so many randomizers in openttd that timetabling is just dumb
17:27<V453000>sooner or later the line will be full anyway
17:27<V453000>if not, you are doing something wrong
17:28<frosch123>hmm, they look nothing like i remembered them
17:28<FLHerne>Make sure there's a big gap timetabled between a slow train and the following fast one, such that the fast one doesn't overtake the slow before the next loop :P
17:28<FLHerne>Breakdowns off, of course, else the timetable is meaningless :-/
17:29<V453000>you cant afford a big gap if you want to have more than just a few trains
17:29<FLHerne>Also, define "Wrong"
17:29<V453000>which is what just a handful of industries requires
17:29<V453000>so idk if you are playing without traffic or how
17:29<V453000>or even a single grown industry
17:30<V453000>not even talking about whole towns
17:31<FLHerne>Really? I don't shift OTTDcoop levels of cargo (or even close), but certainly not just a few dozen crates wobbling about...
17:31<V453000>this isnt about openttdcoop at all
17:31<V453000>industries behave everywhere the same
17:32<V453000>everybody gets high producing industries
17:32<frosch123>nope
17:32<frosch123>not when you play on 256x128 maps
17:32<V453000>if you have, say, 5 mines and each of them produces average of 500 (still relatively low but enough to illustrate), you definitely cannot get away with gaps on a single line
17:33<FLHerne>V453000: Simile. They have a reputation for insane transport quantities :D
17:33<frosch123>the game is over before they reach higher levels
17:33<V453000>presumably you do not play with 5 but 50 mines
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>i've never had high-producing industries unless they randomly started out that way
17:33<V453000>you can say you instead of they :)
17:33<V453000>how can the game be over ... :z
17:33<FLHerne>V453000: Nah, my mines produce about 200 each, and I serve a couple of dozen :P
17:33<frosch123>V453000: when you have everything connected
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>"you can say you to me" (common joke in german)
17:34<FLHerne>(FIRS btw)
17:34<frosch123>which is possible on 256x128
17:34<V453000>firs grows a lot faster than original actually if you supply correctly
17:34<V453000>when you have everything connected it isnt game over at all :(
17:34<V453000>jams should appear pretty soon at that point
17:34<FLHerne>Mostly I end up serving a couple of secondaries of each type, and FIRS being FIRS normally end up with an inter-secondary network too
17:35<FLHerne>V453000: I supply as many supplies as needed to get the highest production rate my line will support ;-)
17:35<V453000>and after the one line isnt enough?
17:35<FLHerne>If I feel like building a new line, I can always do that and then supply a few more supplies...
17:36<frosch123>V453000: i think you underestimate how little there is on small maps
17:36<V453000>frosch123: dont want me to show you some small maps
17:36<V453000>:P
17:36<FLHerne>V453000: If the one line isn't enough and I don't feel like building another right then, I supply less supplies
17:36<V453000>well yeah but what do you do in the game then if you just reduce amount of supplies
17:36<FLHerne>There isn't an obligation to ALWAYS SHUFFLE MOAR CARGO! :P
17:36<V453000>if you dont want to build you might as well go outside
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>on the last small map i played, i got exactly one of each FIRS industry
17:37<FLHerne>V453000: I like to build realistic, aesthetically pleasing networks
17:37<FLHerne>Not necessarily high-throughput ones
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>but i always end up spending 90% of the time transporting passengers :/
17:37<V453000>what does realistic mean, how does it define the network
17:37<V453000>building it poorly?
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: not abusing infrastructure for logic, for example.
17:38<FLHerne>If I say "that's a nice mountain pass, more track through there would look unrealistic", I'm not obliged to accept extra traffic and so need to build more...
17:39<frosch123>V453000: the hall of fame only lists 256x256 games
17:39<V453000>that isnt a requirement to do Eddi
17:39<FLHerne>I *like* looking at squiggly lines up the side of mountains. I don't care that demolishing the whole thing to build a 20-line inter-hub ML with sideline prio-mergers would be more efficient, because the amount of cargo I move is irrelevant
17:40<FLHerne>s/thing/mountain range/
17:40<V453000>well, we define limits for where to build and where not to build as well, just go around the mountain then?
17:40<FLHerne>V453000: But then I wouldn't get to look at the squiggly line going up and over it :D
17:41<V453000>you would, you can keep that line :)
17:41<V453000>I mean go around with the rest
17:41<V453000>(the extra tracks which do not fit there :P)
17:41<FLHerne>V453000: But why bother building them at all?
17:42<V453000>cause the game is about building stuff? :D
17:42<FLHerne>V453000: But with the time I spent building that, I could build more squiggly, unproductive branchlines :D
17:43<V453000>XD alright
17:44<FLHerne>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=164857 http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=161426
17:44<FLHerne>And yes, those are 45mph Tube trains sharing a short bit of track with 125mph HSTs :P
17:44<V453000>the second one is cute, but when I see the first screenshot I really think "how retarded can you be by screenshotting literally 1 track with 1 train"
17:45<FLHerne>V453000: Fair enough. But I liked that train.
17:45<Steve^>I remember when TT didn't have a D, or signals
17:45<V453000>what do you like on that? :D
17:45<frosch123>psg#229 is 64x256, but it is a rv game
17:45<V453000>256x256 is smallest train game you will find frosch
17:46<FLHerne>Dunno really, watching two saddle tanks struggle up a hill at 5mph is just funny :-)
17:46<V453000>I understand that it is funny for once or twice, but watching it for 5 years would make me mildly bored
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>TT had signals, but only the most simple ones
17:47<V453000>^
17:47<FLHerne>V453000: I'd go off and build something a bit more useful, and then they'd be a nice contrast :-)
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>i actually built very efficient one-way tracks with those signals
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>but the system was pretty fragile
17:48<V453000>what do you mean by that? :d
17:48<V453000>haha Eddi :)
17:48<V453000>been there did that :>
17:48<FLHerne>V453000: Was that at me, or Eddi?
17:49<V453000>first at you, what do you mean by contrast
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17:51<frosch123>night
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17:52<FLHerne>V453000: I can look at (say) Garratts trundling on 9-tile coal trains, and those little things pootling about, and think "Ah, those trains look so small and inefficient next to that other one" :-)
17:52<V453000>:d
17:53<FLHerne>And then build some A4s to zip around the place at relatively stupid speeds, and compare 'heavy and slow' with 'lightweight and fast, but low capacity'
17:53<V453000>well, whatever ... but I will give you one thing. Even though I do not understand how is it possible that you enjoy watching that for years, you are the first person who was able to describe it sensibly to me
17:54<FLHerne>And then have a lot of fun figuring out how to avoid the expresses stopping behind coal trains constantly
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>because of the ridiculous amounts of passengers generated by the game, that never works out for me
17:55<FLHerne>...and then semi-fast pax trains, which have to be kept out of the way of the expresses but still overtake the coal...
17:55<V453000>indeed Eddi ... but yeah :)
17:55<FLHerne>...and stopping pax, which have to be timed to meet branch trains at junctions...
17:55<FLHerne>...and fast containerised freight, and fish trains etc
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>and timetables miss some important macromanagement functions
17:56<FLHerne>Just keeping them all runing in an interlinked way while preventing the whole mess from collapsing is one of the most enjoyable things
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17:56<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: True. Better macro-timetabling would be awesome
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>the most obvious ones are "fill this timetable with sanely guessed default values" and "move this vehicle forward or backward X ticks/days/minutes"
18:00<FLHerne>I really liked that patch that added "Send one train of this group out from x station every x days". Saved a bit of hassle with start dates
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18:04<V453000>any discoveries Steve^ ? :)
18:06<Steve^>NUTS in temperate
18:06<V453000>nuts works everywhere :)
18:07<Steve^>but then since I don't feel much for the trains, I might use the same variety forever
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18:08<V453000>well, you cant do everything at first immediately :P
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 05 00:00:05 2013