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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-04-10

---Logopened Wed Apr 10 00:00:13 2013
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03:10<andythenorth>could the newgrf debug window be marked dirty every time a cb runs?
03:10<andythenorth>or at least, more frequently?
03:11*andythenorth wasted 10 mins trying to debug a non-thing, because the update on persistent storage values is...intermittent :)
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04:02<V453000>moo I didnt even ever use the debug window :D
04:18<andythenorth>helps debug stuff :P
04:18<andythenorth>like supplies being broken :P
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08:44<HellTiger>there is a creepy uboot driving around.
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11:26<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25175 /trunk/src/lang (27 files in 2 dirs) (2013-04-10 15:26:40 UTC)
11:26<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
11:26<@DorpsGek>faroese - 243 changes by FastNinja
11:28<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25176 /trunk (6 files in 3 dirs) (2013-04-10 15:28:15 UTC)
11:28<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Faroese translation
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11:50*peter1139 grumbles at things that use hg instead of git :S
11:51<goodger>it's weird how they were developed concurrently and independently
11:54<peter1139>i might just patch against the last release
11:56<peter1139>branches seem a little different
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13:17<@planetmaker>quak :-)
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13:26*peter1139 shoots the duck
13:38<V453000>rage of the zoo
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13:57<alandarev>can I change the name of a town through a server console?
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13:59<V453000>you cant change the name of a town in a multiplayer game
13:59<V453000>only upon town funding
14:03<@planetmaker>andythenorth, FISH does not seem to set version and minimum required version for the grf and compatibility purposes?
14:03<andythenorth>FISH or new FISH? o_O
14:04<@planetmaker>well. FISH?
14:06<@planetmaker>likely the old(er) one. It creates issues with not having the exact same version. Especially for people who test and play with nightly builds
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14:09<@planetmaker>I'm currently generating the md5sum of every revision of that repo :-P
14:09<andythenorth>oops :(
14:09<@planetmaker>takes a bit time with 1k revisions :D
14:09<Rubidium>I'd say try bisecting, but that won't work either ;)
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>for i in $(seq 1 1000); do hg up -r $i; make; md5sum fish.grf; done;
14:10<@planetmaker>^^ yes. that
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>bisecting hash values would be funny :)
14:11<@planetmaker>for i in {50...1000}; do hg up $i; make remake >/dev/null && md5sum fish.grf; done | grep 'fish.grf' > file.txt
14:11<@planetmaker>still, that takes time to compile FISH 1000 times :D
14:12<andythenorth>has the md5 and the grf
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>well, just run it, and sleep over the results
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>or parallelize it in "the cloud" :)
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14:13<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes... but we don't keep nightlies forever. Like 3 months or N versions
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: only of releases and recent nightlies
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14:13<@planetmaker>with N around ... <50 or so
14:14<@planetmaker>otherwise we'd run out of hdd space in no time
14:14<@planetmaker>with all those projects
14:14<@planetmaker>releases is a totally different thing :-)
14:15<frosch123>planetmaker: i hope you are using grfid -m :p
14:16<@planetmaker>hm.... no :-P
14:17<@planetmaker>problem is: if it's a somewhat recent nightly I won't succeed anyway... different NML -> different md5sum
14:17<@planetmaker>thus I won't succeed most likely anyway :S
14:17<frosch123>true :p
14:18<@planetmaker>but... I'm still in revisions with NFO files :-P
14:18<frosch123>fis 0.9.2 set a version though
14:18<Rubidium>planetmaker: just try all revisions of NML (and grfcodec) as well
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14:18<andythenorth>sounds fun
14:18<Rubidium>esp. since the optimisation in grfcodec that got (un)done
14:18<frosch123>planetmaker: do you have a savegame?
14:19<Rubidium>what's the md5sum?
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14:19<frosch123>well, what are you searching for actually? :p
14:19<Zuu>planetmaker: Why do you need the old md5sums?
14:19<Rubidium>planetmaker: attempt r709
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14:20<@planetmaker>now please tell me how you knew :-)
14:20<frosch123>it's in his list
14:21<Rubidium>my crystal ball
14:21<frosch123>just looked there as well :p
14:21<frosch123>it's amazing how many "M" versions are in that list actually
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14:40<Sacro> hehehehe
14:49<frosch123>Sacro: did you pass?
14:53<Zuu>Sacro: There is also the sign for "farthinder" - speed bump
14:55<__ln__>Sacro: i don't suppose you know what the number 'six' is in swedish?
14:56<frosch123>__ln__: the same as in south germany?
14:59<__ln__>could be
15:00<frosch123>"statt" = "instead of"
15:01<@Alberth>another new FIRS :o
15:02<frosch123>and another nuts
15:02<frosch123>i wonder though whether firs affects my game
15:02<Sacro>__ln__: I don't speak svdish
15:02<Sacro>bork bork bork
15:02<frosch123>is that scottish or welsh?
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>resistance is futile?
15:19<andythenorth>so does FIRS affect your game? o_O
15:24<frosch123>how would i tell?
15:24<frosch123>what did you fix? :p
15:24<frosch123>you only said you changed supplies
15:24<andythenorth>serious defect with supplies
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>usually when andy says "fix" i assume he means "rip it out"
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15:28<frosch123>V453000: why is nuts 256 MiB?
15:28<frosch123>did you add 32bpp or extrazoom?
15:28<frosch123>*26 MiB
15:28<V453000>mh, I added a lot of recolour sprites for wagons ... will do it through code later
15:29<@planetmaker>do you crop sprites? nmlc -c
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15:29<V453000>dont know what that does
15:30<V453000>idk what it does but yes :D
15:30<@planetmaker>cut sprites down to the needed size
15:30<@planetmaker>thus avoiding sprites with loads of needless blue
15:30<V453000>myeah but there might be like 30-40k of them atm
15:30<frosch123>planetmaker: but blue is compressed, so i would think it does not affect the filesize much
15:30<V453000>if not even more, I didnt count it
15:31<@planetmaker>yes... not much likely.
15:32<frosch123>hmm, hovercat
15:33<frosch123>but yeah, nuts has 108226 sprites
15:33<@planetmaker>@calc 26000 / 108226
15:33<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 0.240238020439
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15:33<@planetmaker>240 bytes per sprite is not too much really
15:33<@planetmaker>hm... 10*24. typical vehicle size :D
15:34<V453000>70 spritegroups for all wagons, 9 loading stages per spritegroup
15:34<frosch123>102066 realsprites, 6168 pseudosprites
15:34<V453000>times 12 I think
15:34<@planetmaker>that's ... a decent ratio of graphics vs. code :-)
15:35<V453000>HOLY SHIT
15:35<V453000>60480 separate sprites for all cats
15:35<V453000>5000 for just ships
15:36<V453000>and before that nuts had about 20 000 plus chameleons I think
15:36<@planetmaker>are chameleons gone?
15:36<V453000>jesus christ
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15:36<V453000>no it is just another train class with their own wagons
15:36<@planetmaker>productive arist :-)
15:37<frosch123>V453000: did you draw them all? or is there some generating involved?
15:37<V453000>draw of course but some are cloned and recoloured
15:37<V453000>for example for the cats it is x12 cloned, 5000 for ships and 5000 for cats
15:37<V453000>but cats are in 12 colour variants
15:38<@planetmaker>so... using the recolour sprites you could actually reduce sprite count for those by a factor of 11?
15:38<V453000>for those it would indeed work as I just recoloured those
15:38<frosch123>planetmaker: i wonder whether nml duplicates some sprites
15:39<@planetmaker>frosch123, it might. For instance to get spritesets of equal size when required
15:39<@planetmaker>though... they should be empty sprites
15:40<frosch123>well, how did v draw 102066 sprites by hand, in one year? :p
15:40<frosch123>@calc 102066 / 365
15:40<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 279.632876712
15:40<@Alberth>one at a time? :)
15:40<V453000>as I said, it is reduced a lot by multipliers of some
15:40<frosch123>@calc 102066 / 365 / 8
15:40<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 34.954109589
15:41<V453000>but yes I wouldnt say I am slacking :P
15:41<frosch123>andythenorth: everything is still "gung ho", no idea what you changed :p
15:41<frosch123>oh, wait, one just dropped to normal
15:42<V453000>frosch123: how did you count these sprites btw?
15:42<andythenorth>if the industry list was something like arable farm, coal mine, port
15:42<frosch123>grep -c '\*' nuts.nfo
15:42<frosch123>grep -c 'sprites' nuts.nfo
15:42<andythenorth>then coal mine was using trigger values from arable farm, port was using coal mines'
15:42<andythenorth>defines in the wrong order, failing silently :P
15:42<V453000>hm guess not in windoze :P
15:42<andythenorth>CPP :P
15:43<V453000>or does cmd have something similar to grep?
15:45<@planetmaker>probably not :D
15:45<@planetmaker>though you can install grep on windoze
15:45<frosch123>[21:42] <V453000> 108226 <- that number is easy actually, grfcodec numbers the sprites when decoding :p
15:45<@Alberth> <-- like that?
15:46<@Alberth>but having grep standard available is so much more easy :p
15:48<frosch123>V453000: anyway, nuts is the first 8bpp normal zoom grf with more graphics than nfo code :)
15:48<frosch123>*that i know
15:48<V453000>how many lines of code is it in nfo?
15:48<V453000>my nml source has 60k
15:48<frosch123>with default line wrapping?
15:49<V453000>idk I have some gaps there
15:49<V453000>also what is line wrapping :D
15:51<frosch123>hmm, does not allow pasting 7.6 MiB :p
15:52<frosch123>anyway, number of sprites is also about number of lines
15:52<frosch123>112829 with default line wrapping of grfcodec
15:53<V453000>mygod :)
15:53<Zuu><Alberth> but having grep standard available is so much more easy :p <--- true, but cygwin with grep and a few other utilities goes right after vim on my priority list of things to first install on a windows computer :-)
15:53<V453000>onwards to half a million sprites! :D
15:54<@Alberth>Zuu: just install Linux instead :D
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15:54<Zuu>Alberth: I have two linux VMs on this windows comptuer. :-)
15:55<@Alberth>I have 10 windows displayed at this Linux computer :p
15:55<frosch123>Alberth: no fan of tabs?
15:56<@Alberth>with 6 desktops? who needs tabs? :)
15:57<frosch123>i don't like desktop switching. it feels too rough to me
15:57<frosch123>i always have to configure windows to display on all desktops and such
15:57<frosch123>so i prefer one browser, one chat, one editor and one console window
15:58<@planetmaker>andythenorth, what does the cidre mill do, production-wise?
15:58<frosch123>each with tabs, so i can switch them independently
15:58<@planetmaker>convert fruits to cidre?
15:58<@planetmaker>And what's the German translation for "cider mill"? :D
15:59<Zuu>I sometimes miss multiple desktops in Windows, but I have yet to come across a implemenattion that works flawless enough to be worth using.
15:59<__ln__>germans don't know what cider is
15:59<frosch123>planetmaker: i think it's just "Kelterei"
16:00<frosch123>__ln__: äppelvoi
16:00<andythenorth>I am planning to add more detail to show how production varies in each economy
16:00<Zuu>frosch123: Even if its a cider made on other fruites than apple?
16:00<andythenorth>but later...
16:01<@planetmaker>I think the definition of Cider is 'made from apples'
16:01<__ln__>or pears
16:01<Zuu>or .. <insert some other fruit>
16:01<frosch123>Zuu: with other fruits it might be "Likör", though i am not sure. maybe there is a technical difference
16:01<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I still have a problem: I don't know's the name for it in German. frosch123, any suggestion?
16:01<Zuu>Likör I would say is stronger than cider.
16:02<@planetmaker>"Weingut" trifft's nicht
16:02<__ln__>Zuu: i think the <other fruit> flavors contain either apple or pear as well, otherwise it isn't cider by definition
16:02<frosch123>Zuu: yeah, likely liqeur is distilled cider
16:02<Zuu>__ln__: they usually contain apple to 50 % or more if not else because its cheaper.
16:03<frosch123>planetmaker: "Mosterei" is apparently a word
16:04<frosch123>planetmaker: "Mosterei" or "Kelterei"
16:04<Zuu>Eg. Gooseberry cider is quite common here. But yes, it is probabably more apple than gooseberry and then just made to taste gooseberry.
16:05<frosch123>your link is only apple
16:05<@planetmaker>hm... Mosterei makes juice. Not cider, no?
16:05<andythenorth>proper cider is apples only :P
16:05<frosch123>planetmaker: a mosterei makes most, which is cider
16:05<andythenorth>that's why it's supplied by an orchard
16:05<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the German version of that is what I consulted... without getting more of an idea :D
16:06<andythenorth>where I live, orchards grow apples only, not other new-fangled fruit
16:06<frosch123>planetmaker: oh, "most" is regional :p it might also be juice :p
16:06<@Alberth>iirc I translated it to "fruit beer"
16:07<@planetmaker>Alberth, rather wine then, I think...
16:08<@planetmaker>hm :D
16:08<@planetmaker>Bionade :-P
16:08<@planetmaker>I'll keep it as "Cider-Brauerei"
16:08<frosch123>planetmaker: oh, the proper word is "Kelterhaus"
16:08<frosch123>not Kelterei :p
16:08<@Alberth>would be fine, andy doesn't demand a literal translation, just something that could come from an industry as depicted
16:09<@planetmaker>but... isn't "keltern" (also) defined as "making juice"?
16:10<frosch123>both :)
16:10<frosch123>but yeah, maybe just name it "Brennerei" :)
16:10<@planetmaker>especially of grapes
16:10<frosch123>and make it produce Likör instead :)
16:10<frosch123>tastes better anyway
16:10<frosch123>who drinks eppelvoi?
16:11<@Alberth>important point for an industry set to have tasty products :)
16:11<frosch123>hazelnut liqueur is the only hazelnut product, which i do not react allergic to :)
16:12<V453000>frosch is allergic to nuts
16:12<@planetmaker>lool :D
16:12<frosch123>though i first had to figure out that you could produce liqueur from hazelnuts
16:12<frosch123>V453000: only hazel
16:12<V453000>fair enough
16:13<@planetmaker>hm, did you eat of the r25k cake? Or did I put almond in it?
16:13<frosch123>it was almond
16:14<frosch123>and there is no danger in me accidentially eating stuff with hazelnut
16:14<Zuu>According to swedish wikipedia, the only requirement for something to be called Cider here is: 1) the alochol comes from apples or pears. 2) at least 15% of the cider should be based on fruit juice.
16:14<frosch123>i can smell it from 30 cm distance
16:15<Zuu>planetmaker: have you made a r25k cake?
16:16<@planetmaker>ups... 20k
16:16<Zuu>ah :-)
16:17<frosch123>[22:12] <V453000> frosch is allergic to nuts <- oh, damn, i did not get that reference :o
16:20<@planetmaker>General store... = Laden?
16:20<@planetmaker>or more specific?
16:20<frosch123>let's see what it looks like
16:21<@planetmaker>yeah... "Laden" is fine
16:21<andythenorth>I want to connect the docs and the translator :P
16:22<andythenorth>'translate this'
16:22<frosch123>which economy has a general store?
16:22<@planetmaker>that'd be over-engineered, andythenorth ;-)
16:22<@Rubidium>frosch123: the general one?
16:23<frosch123>basic temp hat it, firs did not have it
16:23<frosch123>planetmaker: maybe "Kaufladen"
16:23<@planetmaker>I had that actually first. Somehow I don't like it as much as just "Laden"
16:23<frosch123>"Laden" sounds weird for a specific thing
16:24<frosch123>well, it has some child game taste :)
16:24<Zuu>andythenorth: regarding translator, have you came anywhere on the web translator for NewGRFs?
16:25<@planetmaker>Zuu, checkout eints project on devzone
16:25<@planetmaker>it's awesome tbh
16:26<Zuu>If the tutorial ever is going to be translated (a huge task), it would need something to keep track of subsequent changes in english.txt and which strings in the translations that needs to be updated etc.
16:26*andythenorth bed
16:26<@planetmaker>apropros eints...
16:26<@planetmaker>bye andythenorth
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16:27<frosch123>Zuu: afaik ammler set up a new virtual server on devzone for eints
16:27<@Alberth>Zuu: it needs an interface to Red Mine
16:27<@planetmaker>... Alberth , any thought on
16:27<frosch123>so, it feels like it is approaching production stage :)
16:29<@Alberth>planetmaker: feels like the 'translations' page of a language :p
16:29<@Alberth>frosch123: for some values of 'workable' it is, there is a lot of room for improvements
16:30<@planetmaker>I guess it's a matter of "close. Implemented" :D
16:30<@Alberth>planetmaker: well, eints doesn't show it
16:30<@planetmaker>but yes, like that. Sorry, I didn't check. But I was annoyed when I recently needed to verify translations for OpenTTD itself
16:30<@Alberth>and I somewhat wonder how many people will understand it
16:31<@planetmaker>uhm... I think that's intuitive
16:31<@Alberth>planetmaker: how did you think I came up with that solution? :)
16:31<@planetmaker>especially as it says 'current source' and 'old source'
16:32<@Alberth>the data is available, that's no problem
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16:32<@Alberth>I was wondering about the new translator format though, where would you leave "similar translations" in such a file?
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16:33<@planetmaker>having it shown similar to what you just linked is very helpful IMHO
16:33<@planetmaker>what do you mean with your last question, can you elaborate?
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16:33<@Alberth>I mean that set of other strings that is displayed in WT
16:34<@Alberth>or "related strings" or whatever it is called
16:34<@planetmaker>ah, ok
16:34<@Alberth>ie the new format would currently only contain strings that need to be worked on
16:34<@planetmaker>not sure they need to be "left" anywhere, but you could just get them by means of grep from the current file
16:35<@planetmaker>that's afaik about what WT does, too
16:35<@planetmaker>not sure how the choice on the search phrases is done, though
16:35<@planetmaker>that's tricky
16:35<@Alberth>that would imply a translator needs to download a copy of the language file of his language as well
16:35<@Alberth>I am sure someone could tell us :)
16:36<@planetmaker>yes... but eints does have that, no?
16:36<@planetmaker>the translator itself does not need that, if eints makes a choice
16:36<@Alberth>sure, but it defeats the point of the translator file format somewhat
16:37*Alberth is thinking about off-line translation options
16:37<@planetmaker>for that you don't need it. Or you provide (additionally) the whole file
16:38<@planetmaker>as reference
16:38<@Alberth>that seems the best solution so far
16:41<frosch123>hmm, would it be clever to not use string ids (STR_xxx) for off-line translations, but instead the original string as key value?
16:41<frosch123>then you would only import translations for which the original string did not change
16:42<frosch123>hmm, or add a revision to the string id?
16:43<frosch123>STR_IND_LUMBER_YARD@2128 :Houtwerkplaats
16:44<@Alberth>I think it should give 3 ini-like lines: source text, current translation, and an empty new translation
16:45<frosch123>that sounds like gnu gettext po files :)
16:45<frosch123>they also contain keywords like "fuzzy"
16:45<frosch123>when the original string changed
16:46<@Alberth>add a new translation into the latter line, and send it back; eints verifies that you translated the current string, and were not beaten by another translator
16:46<@Alberth>I call that 'outdated' :)
16:46<@planetmaker>what's the policy on conflicting translations for the same thing? :-)
16:47<@planetmaker>if another was faster?
16:47<frosch123>you could also put the export revision at the top of the file
16:47<@Alberth>then it rejects your translation saying it is old, and gives you a new set of strings
16:48<@Alberth>or at least it should do that :)
16:49<@Alberth>with just language files, you don't have connections between base language and translation texts
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