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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-04-11

---Logopened Thu Apr 11 00:00:15 2013
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02:57<andythenorth>the title game is cheating :P
02:58<andythenorth>it has rivers that can only be built in scenario editor
02:59<V453000>and I forgot to disable the turtles I was testing so they are in the release version
02:59<Supercheese>I like turtles
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03:12<andythenorth>planetmaker: I added name string reference here, so you can reverse lookup which industry uses a string
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03:15*andythenorth considers multi-lingual support for the docs :P
03:18<Supercheese>Well, the .lngs already cover most stuff
03:18<andythenorth>unicode o_O
03:19<Supercheese>other than the few sentences on the main page anyway
03:19<blathijs>We should translate our code comments! :-)
03:20<Supercheese>well, good night
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03:21<andythenorth>V453000: :P
03:22<V453000>apart from fuckload of wtf characters, Bauxitový důl I , I hate that language :P
03:23<andythenorth>I'm a retard when it comes to unicode handling :P
03:23<V453000>I shouldnt talk about that too much either :D
03:23*andythenorth switches it back
03:23<andythenorth>it's one piece of code to change it
03:23<andythenorth>just load different lang file :P
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04:57<__ln__>are there other commonly known 'additional' C++ preprocessors similar to Qt's moc?
05:01<TinoDidriksen>Not that I can think of. People have a serious bias against any extra build step.
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05:03<SpComb>cant't remember if arudino's ide did any preprocessing
05:03<peter1139>moc stinks
05:04<SpComb>Qt4's runtime signal type mismatch errors stink
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05:10<TinoDidriksen>MOC outputs Standard C++ - it's fine.
05:12<peter1139>the problem is that it exists
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06:11<peter1139>was there an OS that doesn't release memory when a program exists?
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06:14<Pinkbeast>peter: 8-bit BASICs?
06:18<Sacro>I recall having to reboot the machine between different demos
06:18<Sacro>until I got the 512K RAM upgrade
06:19<TinoDidriksen>AmigaOS was special...rebooting multiple times could free up more resources.
06:21<Sacro>beware the blinking caps lock
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09:47<andythenorth>now with info about industry cargos in each economy
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10:15<Ristovski>planetmaker: hmm, may I ask where the openttd titlegame is kept?
10:16<Ristovski>I would like to open it and take a look at the masterpiece :D
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10:22<Eddi|zuHause>in the file called "opntitle.dat", just rename it to .sav and you can load it
10:25<Ristovski>done, wow, that is an awesome map
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11:00<Eddi|zuHause>there is also an archive of all other submissions into the savegame contest
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>finding it is left as an excercise to the reader.
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12:00<andythenorth>hi planetmaker
12:01<@planetmaker>I just saw your work on the firs string relation :-) Nice
12:01<@planetmaker>granted, the string naming... is also often very obvious :-)
12:02<andythenorth>thanks ;)
12:02<andythenorth>doing some other docs stuff now
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12:35<@planetmaker>quak :D
12:35<frosch123>moin :)
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12:52<Eddi|zuHause>i think planetmaker turns into fjb :p
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: is that the sound that a unicorn does?
12:53<frosch123>you mean fjb replaced pm?
12:53<andythenorth>python sorting shenanigans
12:53<V453000>idk ask frosch123 garage holder
12:53<@planetmaker>hm... :-)
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12:57<@planetmaker>by which characteristica would that be defined, Eddi|zuHause ?
12:59<frosch123>pff, you cannot trick us like that so easly, fjb
13:00<frosch123>i hope you gave pm at least a copy of ottd when locking him to the cellar
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm, that statistics is not entirely what i expected:
13:02<frosch123>what? i am last? :p
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>no, there are a few more, but it drops really quickly after that :)
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>that is since July 2007
13:04<frosch123>why do your logs have more hits for me, than mine do?
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13:05<@planetmaker>he, :D
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13:05<frosch123>ah, right, i have two log files
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>apparently, my grep also counts "earthquake" :p
13:06<frosch123>so, before 2009-12-18 there were actually only fjb and me
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>[Mittwoch, 23. Juni 2010] [20:10:12] <frosch123> looks like there is "quak" in earthquakle
13:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I have a dict structure like this, I want to iterate over it, sorted by 'economies', think of a way? I can't manage to write a valid lambda sort so far
13:07<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that highlighted me :)
13:08<andythenorth>I could change the structure so the economies are the keys, and iterate over those
13:08<andythenorth>is one solution
13:08<andythenorth>those tuples are disposable
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "lambda x: x['economies']"?
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>as "key"
13:09<V453000>ha :D
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. sorted(list, key = lambda blah: blah['economies']) or something
13:10<andythenorth>tried that, barfs
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: barfs on what?
13:10<andythenorth>1 min
13:11<andythenorth>TypeError: tuple indices must be integers, not str
13:11<andythenorth>it's trying to get into the tuple that acts as the key?
13:11<andythenorth>maybe I need to stick iteritems() in somewhere
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: have a more complete code example?
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have a feeling the error is in a different place
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13:12<andythenorth>you don't read my templating language :P
13:12<andythenorth>but I'll make one
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: list.iteritems()
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>and then key = lambda key, value: value['economies']
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>or list.itervalues() and stuff
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>but it's difficult to know without some actually run-able example
13:17<andythenorth>think the lambda you gave me will work
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13:20<KBuris|Work>Hi everyone. I
13:21<frosch123>welcome, you are our 128th member. you have won the 7th bit
13:22<KBuris|Work>Aw, thank you! I'd like to thank all 127 people who acted as stepping stones to my win! :-P
13:24<KBuris|Work>I'm not a programmer, but I decided to go through the changelog between 1.2.3 and 1.3.0 - and I saw something in the changelog. "...Cargo lists cannot have genders..." - Is gender some part of the code as it is in terms of, say, romance languages, or an actual thing like differences between male and female passengers enabled?
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13:25<+glx>KBuris|Work: translation stuff
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>KBuris|Work: gender is a concept of our grammar engine for translations
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>KBuris|Work: see for details
13:27<frosch123> <- a wiki link might be more helpful though :p
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13:31<Eddi|zuHause>KBuris|Work: the point of that commit message, however is, that this feature will not work for lists of cargos, because each cargo may have a different gender, and there is no automatic way to deduct the gender of the complete list
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13:32<Eddi|zuHause>since there is no way, the author of that commit decided to not even try
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25177 /trunk/src/lang (faroese.txt hungarian.txt) (2013-04-11 17:45:12 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>faroese - 54 changes by FastNinja
13:45<@DorpsGek>hungarian - 2 changes by IPG
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13:51<KBuris|Work>I see. Coolness.
13:51<andythenorth>I must be making a web app
13:51<andythenorth>50% of my code is to do with sort order
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13:53<Eddi|zuHause>sorting is one of the most common jobs in computer science for a reason
13:55<andythenorth>expanded the cargos page to show details for each economy (all sorted in A-Z) :P
13:56<andythenorth>ho ho, maybe I should use the cargo icons from in-game, next to each cargo here:
13:56<andythenorth>maybe I should do something useful instead :P
13:58<andythenorth>links at the top right, which is more useful: "Source Repository" or "Translate FIRS" ?
13:59<KBuris|Work>Just looked at that... Does FIRS not support the Coal -> Power Plant line?
14:01<frosch123>andythenorth: add the cargo colour as colour :p
14:01<andythenorth>rainbow :P
14:01<andythenorth>appropriate for NUTS though
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>KBuris|Work: allegedly, power plants are boring :p
14:02<andythenorth>allegedly you could add your own in an add-on grf :P
14:02<andythenorth>V453000: where is your auto-generated documentation?
14:02<andythenorth>nobody cared enough to make a stupidly simple grf that turns back on default power plant :P
14:02<frosch123>anyway, i always wonder whether there is any schema behind industry map colours
14:02<frosch123>is there in firs? :)
14:02<andythenorth>I tried to keep original colours for copies of original industries
14:03<andythenorth>then I try to make each colour legible on the map
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>i think ECS tried to use colour groups per vector
14:03<andythenorth>I try to make forests green, mines brown / black etc
14:03<andythenorth>town industries have to be yellow or white, or they can't be seen
14:03<frosch123>[19:58] <andythenorth> links at the top right, which is more useful: "Source Repository" or "Translate FIRS" ? <- add a "contribute" link, which links to the devzone page, which then links to repository or translations
14:04<frosch123>also replace "discuss" with "flame"?
14:04<frosch123>or "troll"?
14:04<andythenorth>'request features'
14:05<@Alberth>'demand changes'
14:05<frosch123>"order unicorns"
14:05<@Alberth>request ponies
14:05<andythenorth>I could randomise the text
14:05<V453000>andythenorth: I autogenerate it manually :P
14:05<andythenorth>V453000: lame :)
14:05<KBuris|Work>I'll be honest, I tend to play with either vanilla or OpenTTD+ Industries, and I like to set up a Coal-Power and a Diamonds/Gold-Bank line first, to set myself up early and then expand into stuff like subsidies and interesting station constructions.
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14:07<frosch123>KBuris|Work: we only play firs/nuts/nocargoal :p
14:09<@planetmaker>tehehe. Nearly true for recent times :D
14:10<frosch123>though we got two new ideas for gs
14:10<frosch123>though i still doubt the vehicle thingie has replayability
14:12<@planetmaker>hm, what's the new ideas?
14:12<frosch123>you weren't around?
14:12<KBuris|Work>Well, as long as you leave it in for the rest of us.
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14:13<frosch123>1) build at least one vehicle of every engine type, and make them do at least twice the profit compared to running cost
14:14<@planetmaker>I was not around then, it seems...
14:14<@planetmaker>or I have a faulty memory :D
14:14<frosch123>2) allcargoal: transport as much cargos as possible, the cargotype with the lowest amount per quarter decides for the medal
14:14<@Alberth>or both :)
14:15<@planetmaker>or both :-P
14:15<@planetmaker>allcargoal sounds fun :-)
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14:15<@planetmaker>but needs serious thinking on balancing with e.g. default cargos
14:15<@planetmaker>you hardly can transport as much gold as passangers
14:16<frosch123>that's exactly the idea behind it :)
14:16<frosch123>it removes the randomness of nocargoal
14:16<frosch123>and makes the goals for deterministically
14:16<@planetmaker>that makes it the same thing every time, though: get all gold moved. And connect one of every other industry
14:16<frosch123>yeah, also true :p
14:17<@Alberth>frosch123: hmm, that sounds a bit like a GS by Zuu
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14:18<frosch123>planetmaker: well, maybe none of the ideas are good :p
14:19<andythenorth>min. profit?
14:19<andythenorth>(operating profit)
14:19<andythenorth>frosch123: I think SV is under-played
14:19<andythenorth>I like SV
14:19<andythenorth>it encourages a wider range of cargo types, not just 3 like NCG
14:20<@planetmaker>frosch123, the idea with the engines might actually
14:20<andythenorth>it also makes for one insane route-building problem in a town
14:20<@planetmaker>and if it's only to play test the vehicle NewGRF. For a sane balancing of them
14:20<frosch123>hmm... min. profit... how about: maximize profit, while minimizing profit of the most profitable vehicle? :p
14:21<frosch123>should result in mass-transfer stuff :o
14:21<@planetmaker>which in itself is fun :-)
14:22<frosch123>[20:20] <planetmaker> and if it's only to play test the vehicle NewGRF. For a sane balancing of them <- yeah, someone has the idea to make it a requirement to be allowed to upload stuff to bananas :p
14:24<andythenorth>frosch123: interesting
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>random idea: subsidies should be generated before game start, so you can get some with your initial line, instead of wait for them to appear
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14:28<andythenorth>planetmaker: do I need to specify which GCC?
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14:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: since it's only the preprocessor, there shouldn't have been any significant changes to that in the last 30 years
14:32<andythenorth>he :)
14:33<@planetmaker>yeah. Shouldn't matter
14:33<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: except that all nfo grf fail to compile with gcc 4.6
14:33<frosch123>or 4.7?
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14:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: why does every ID end with a "d"?
14:33<@planetmaker>or 4.8 :D
14:33<alandarev>can I Start the gamescript in the game if it crashed?
14:33<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: "decimal"
14:33<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: because they're not h?
14:34<alandarev>dbg: [script] The script died unexpectedly.
14:34<alandarev>One of the running scripts crashed. Please report this to the script author with a screenshot of the AI/Game Script Debug Window
14:34<alandarev>and since it is dedicated server I can't see anything
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think that's a very uncommno format
14:34<frosch123>alandarev: you might try loading an autosave, where it did not yet crash
14:35<alandarev>frosch123: that is the problem, it was workign fine, but it crashes if i use Save games :( (City Builder)
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>alandarev: there may be an ai debuglevel you can set
14:35<andythenorth>maybe I should translate them to hex?
14:35<alandarev>Eddi|zuHause: no idea
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just put "dec" in the column title, instead of repeating it on every entry
14:37*andythenorth tries it
14:37<andythenorth>I wouldn't have known what that was tbh
14:37<andythenorth>when I started writing newgrf
14:38<andythenorth>done though
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14:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: better?
14:46<andythenorth>time to do something else
14:46<andythenorth>MP game? :P
14:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth, nmlc 0.3
14:52*andythenorth amends docs
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15:15*andythenorth is trying to write translation instructions
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15:16<__ln__>good news everyone,
15:17<frosch123>wow, he moved the whole of iran into medieval?
15:21<@planetmaker>alandarev, new things are not created by magic from thin air? :-(
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15:21<@planetmaker>ups... Alberth ^
15:22*Alberth hopes so very much in being wrong
15:23<@Alberth>although I don't care about 32bpp at all
15:23<@planetmaker>I believe it's not used to what could be done with it yet.
15:23<@planetmaker>currently as we have it put to use, it's not much of a gain
15:24<@Alberth>that's likely, people have to adjust in how to use the new possibilities
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15:27<Wolf01>hello o/
15:29<andythenorth>makes sense?
15:30<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
15:31<@planetmaker>I want to mark German as 'up to date' D
15:31<frosch123>andythenorth: maybe link to a translation howto page?
15:32<@Alberth>andythenorth: the bold "Or" is somewhat weird, it looks a lot like the next item
15:32<andythenorth>oh :|
15:34<frosch123> <- that one or so
15:34<frosch123> <- or that one
15:37<@Alberth>or this one
15:38<frosch123>oh, that one looks better
15:38<andythenorth>Alberth: we need to ship that app :)
15:38<frosch123>the other two are more for devs
15:38<andythenorth>then I can just link to it
15:46<andythenorth>Alberth: better (no Or)
15:48<@Alberth>yes. Do you want new translations mostly? The "Get Base Language File" button is very tempty to push :)
15:49<@planetmaker>hm... get browser locale and link to the appropriate status report :D
15:49<@planetmaker>with a similarily big blue button :-)
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15:51<andythenorth>I actually want updates to existing translations
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15:51<andythenorth>currently every time I compile I am spammed by 30 warnings
15:51<andythenorth>which irritates me immensely
15:52<Supercheese>Any way to tell the compiler, "duplicate English strings are purposely missing, ignore"?
15:52*andythenorth is tempted to delete some translations :P
15:52<@planetmaker>nml needs a switch for --ignore-lang-warnings?
15:53<@planetmaker>Supercheese, how can duplicate strings be missing?
15:53<Supercheese>Base UK_English strings that do not require translating for US_English are omitted in the US_English file
15:53<Supercheese>yet that probably throws a compiler warning
15:55<@planetmaker>ah that
15:56<@planetmaker>those few bytes don't hurt
15:56<@planetmaker>just copy it
15:56<andythenorth>I told him off for that ;)
15:56<Supercheese>I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't T_T
15:56<@planetmaker>lol :D
15:56<@planetmaker>catch 22, classical example
16:06<@Alberth>I doubt it's a warning, more likely it is a true error in the translation
16:07<@planetmaker>yes. But it's a warning in nmlc. At least currently
16:08<frosch123>[21:51] <andythenorth> currently every time I compile I am spammed by 30 warnings <- weren't you into colouring?
16:08<frosch123>make them black on black
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the lang format needs a way to tell "use STR_XXX from <language>"
16:09<andythenorth>should I commit *that* to nml? :P
16:09<andythenorth>(black on black)
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>not entirely sure what that would solve, though
16:11<@Alberth>planetmaker: which is ok imho; nml decides to ignore given translations, and warns that it does that
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16:18<andythenorth>right, what next? o_O
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16:19<frosch123> <- if i finish that tool, do you code bananas 2 ?
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16:20<andythenorth>I'll do the UI
16:20<andythenorth>you don't want my code, really
16:20<frosch123>so, we need to keep on trying to trick zuu and albert into it :)
16:20<andythenorth>and TrueBrain!
16:20<andythenorth>and Rubidium !
16:20<andythenorth>what tricks are there?
16:21<frosch123>r25k cake or so
16:21<andythenorth>Alberth: what stops eints being in production? Testing? User management?
16:21<Supercheese>Money $
16:21<Supercheese>or wait, €
16:21<@Alberth>Supercheese: time
16:21<frosch123>Supercheese: ottd is not about making money :p
16:21<@Alberth>andythenorth: it needs a coupling to red mine
16:21<@Rubidium>thus money
16:21<Supercheese>time = money
16:21<@Rubidium>after all, time = money ;)
16:21<frosch123>women = root of all evil
16:22<frosch123>i skipped the steps in between, i assume you all know them :)
16:23<andythenorth>Alberth: redmine for...? User authentication?
16:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: verifying user credentials, so you have control who translates your strings from red mine :)
16:23<Supercheese>blah, Firefox update
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16:24<@Alberth>FF update needs quitting irc? :o
16:24<andythenorth>redmine can act as an SSO provider? Or we use apache auth or something?
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16:25<@Alberth>more likely, you can access its db :D
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16:27<@Alberth>needs a few simple functions in a new webtranslate/users/ file, and hookup in webtranslate/users/
16:28<frosch123>andythenorth: redmine stores passwords as sha1 hash
16:28<frosch123>so you need to compute the checksum ,and query the db to compare
16:29<andythenorth>we can't just authenticate on eints if you're authenticated on redmine?
16:29<frosch123>sounds easy, but unfortuantelly you need quite some infrastructure for testing :)
16:29*andythenorth has severe distrust of SSO
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16:30<@Alberth>almost, but too many users starting with 'f' here :p
16:32<@Alberth>I don't make the rules at openttdcoop :)
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16:34<andythenorth>he's too fast for me
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16:37<Eddi|zuHause><Alberth> FF update needs quitting irc? :o <-- only if you're silly enough to use firefox plugins for chatting
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16:39<@Alberth>hi Zuu
16:39<Zuu>Hello Alberth
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16:54<Kjetil>why would you put irc in your browser ?
16:55<Zuu>The FIRS doc website is impressive.
16:56<Zuu>Kjetil: Because you can, or because you don't want to install a stand alone client.
16:56<andythenorth>I had for a long time in mind generating the docs from the code
16:56<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>Kjetil: some people put whole OSes in the browser
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17:12<Kjetil>Eddi|zuHause: but why ?
17:12<Kjetil>haven't they heard about multitasking ? :P
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>because they're silly?
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17:31<@Terkhen>good night
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19:20<FastNinja>nmlc.exe seems very unhappy with any english.lng file I use. I get errors such as: nmlc ERROR: Language file "lang\english.lng": The default language file contains non-utf8 characters. and after I change to utf-8: nmlc ERROR: "lang\english.lng", line 1: Line has no ':' delimiter. Totally new to this, what am I missing?
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>FastNinja: so, can you actually post your file, or do we have to use our crystal balls?
19:26<FastNinja>It is the english.lng file from the latest nightly build
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot use openttd .lng files
19:33<FastNinja>Oh. So I am supposed to write my own?
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes. with at least your GRF name and GRF description in them
19:36<__ln__>there's mario music so i bet this is banned in germany, but...
19:37<FastNinja>ok thanks :)
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>looks like this is not banned ;)
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19:54<Eddi|zuHause>haha, the end is great :p
19:55<Supercheese>Too bad it was Tetris and not Tic Tac Toe
19:55<Supercheese>but yeah
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>tic tac toe is an easily fully computed game
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>there are only like 3^9 possible game states
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>so throwing an adaptive algorithm like this onto it would probably be boring
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 12 00:00:16 2013