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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-04-13

---Logopened Sat Apr 13 00:00:19 2013
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02:37<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:13*Alberth throws 1000 ping-pong balls into the channel
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04:26<@planetmaker> moin
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04:44<andythenorth>moin
04:44<fonsinchen>FS#5508
04:45<fonsinchen>Someone should decide what to do about that ...
04:50<fonsinchen>And besides, I'll be mostly unavailable between April 22nd and May 30th. So, if we want to pursue the cargodist merge any further we should do that either soon or in June.
04:51<@Alberth>imho the problem is who should do that
04:52<fonsinchen>I can hardly help with that question. The only thing I can offer is more documentation or doing it myself. For the latter I'd need svn access.
04:52<alandarev>suggest me some vehicles set which is balanced with respect to NUTS?
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04:56<@Alberth>nuts is a vehicle set
04:57<@Alberth>why do you need another one?
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05:07<andythenorth>V453000: is nuts balanced against anything?
05:07<andythenorth>afaict no set is balanced against any other
05:08<andythenorth>I tried, but it's pointless
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05:21<Administrator>hi
05:21-!-Administrator is now known as Valli
05:21<Valli>hi
05:25<Valli>is it possible to load only 50% or 75% in your vehicle. i use the "conditional jump" to go to recheck the loading but its very ineffective.
05:26<Valli>sorry there should be a question mark behind vehicle
05:28<alandarev>what does the Logic Engine (NUTS) mean?
05:28<@Alberth>Valli: by time tabling perhaps, but otherwise, no, just use a shorter train
05:29<@Alberth>alandarev: it's an engine for controlling train flow (yeah, control logic can be coded with tracks and trains too)
05:29<alandarev>sounds like i don't get it at all
05:30<alandarev>could you explain a bit?
05:30<Valli>is there a mod for ottd which does the loading checking?
05:35<@Alberth>alandarev: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Logic
05:35<@Alberth>Valli: no idea, if it exists, it's in the openttd development section of tt-forums
05:36<Valli>thank you ^^
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05:36<@Alberth>Valli: oh, or perhaps the openttd bug tracker as submitted patch
05:37<@Alberth>Valli: but it would be a source code patch, which means you have to compile the program after applying the path
05:37<@Alberth>*patch
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>Valli: there used to be, but it would probably be very outdated by now
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06:05<Wolf01>hello
06:07<alandarev>Alberth: tht is way beyound my limits, I'd stay away from it :)
06:07<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
06:08<@Alberth>alandarev: it's fun to read that you can even do these things :)
06:08<@Alberth>and some ideas are quite useful, eg the priority solution
06:09<@planetmaker>I wonder whether really the default vehicle behaviour need be set into stone due to NewGRFs... if enough precautions are taken that all NewGRFs will continue to work as before
06:10<@Alberth>alandarev: I am sure you could do such things if you wanted to, it just takes time to learn them, but that's with most good things :)
06:11<@Alberth>planetmaker: but why change the defaults, if you can also change them easily without risk by NewGRF?
06:11<@planetmaker>defaults are what people use to get a first impression of the game
06:11<alandarev>Alberth: I agree, for now I stick to more classical game
06:11<@planetmaker>thus awesome defaults make the whole game more awesome
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>there is a thin line, we have already strayed from the "allow people to use TTD behaviour" route in the past, there is no "set in stone" way. it just must be very carefully weighed
06:12<@Alberth>true, is another cost model for wagons earth moving?
06:12<@planetmaker>certainly not
06:13<@Alberth>or one less passenger in an engine? :)
06:13<@planetmaker>I'm not saying that I want the suggestion as in the forum seen implemented
06:13<@planetmaker>just thinking more generally.
06:13<@planetmaker>And generally more elaborate defaults *would* be nice
06:14<@planetmaker>like refittable wagons imho
06:14<@planetmaker>or non-expiring helicopters
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>well, 2 people on an engine was standard until like the 80s, when automated control systems became more common
06:14<@planetmaker>but it would need
06:14<@planetmaker>a) a global switch for newgrfs like 'use new default vehicles'
06:15<@planetmaker>b) reverting to current vehicles, if that switch is not set
06:15<@planetmaker>c) deciding what to do if two newgrfs want opposite things
06:15<alandarev>what is the point of so many rail types in NUTS? If universal is for 'all' types
06:16<@Alberth>alandarev: the whole point of almost everything is that you can tailor the game to the way YOU like it
06:16<@planetmaker>iirc speed. universal iirc is dead slow
06:16<@Alberth>alandarev: a common mistake is to think that everybody plays the game like you do
06:16<@planetmaker>:-)
06:17<@planetmaker>if there are 10 people, there are 15 ways to play the game ;-)
06:17<alandarev>could someone explain me pros/cons of each rail type in nuts?
06:18<@Alberth>planetmaker: at first people are just completely lost. Adding more stuff doesn't help then perhaps
06:18<@Alberth>alandarev: the readme?
06:18<@planetmaker>Alberth, or trams...
06:18<@planetmaker>Or earlier vehicles
06:18<@Alberth>in mt view, having a more organized fruit store would help much more
06:18<@Alberth>*my
06:19<@Alberth>ie I am here for many years, and I still don't know most of what bananas has :)
06:19<@planetmaker>that would help as well, yes
06:20<@planetmaker>but I think it's two places which can both be improved. The banana thing is probably easier :D
06:20<@Alberth>only two places??? that's easy :)
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i do agree that refittable wagons by default would be good, but "earlier vehicles" don't help much. just throw an error when stating too early, and the user can then look around for NewGRFs
06:20<@planetmaker>as other defaults likely imply at least parts of the so-called newgrf utopia
06:21<@planetmaker>no "only" in my sentence, Alberth ;-)
06:21<@Alberth>extend the install procedure to ship some newgrfs?
06:22<@Alberth>hmm, that implies some fixing of the broken newgame UI
06:22<@planetmaker>^^
06:22<@planetmaker>the work flow for creating a new game is awkward at best
06:22<@Alberth>I was thinking of "confusing at best" :)
06:24<@planetmaker>:-)
06:24<@Alberth>what stops refactoring that stuff?
06:25<@Alberth>you and andy had a go, hackalittlebit had a go, but it never seems to reach code level
06:26<@planetmaker>good question. I'd say it's lack of courage
06:26<@planetmaker>and it's not a small endeavour
06:27<@planetmaker>courage to re-design the main menu and new game menu completely anew
06:27-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
06:28<@Alberth>the design of hackalittlebit looked quite good
06:29<@planetmaker>hehe... I was just looking for shots from the old GUI experiments for new game. And found something else: http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/people_dont_read.png
06:29<@Alberth>hi Zuu
06:29<@planetmaker>hi Zuu
06:29<Zuu>Hello
06:30<@Alberth>planetmaker: QED :)
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06:38<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker is buying a new home? :)
06:38<@planetmaker>nope. Not planning to
06:39<@planetmaker>I didn't want to use a car parabola ;-)
06:39<@planetmaker>but I recently helped friends move :D
06:42<alandarev>that rail uses the lowest curve length speeds of all railtypes. < Which means??
06:42<alandarev>sharp edges cause larger speed loss compared to other railtypes?
06:45<ZxBiohazardZx>alandarev for NUTS see the readme or ask in the openttdcoop
06:45<@planetmaker>curve length is the straight path between two curves in the same direction
06:45<ZxBiohazardZx>as the creator of the set is usually found there
06:45<ZxBiohazardZx>Curve Lenght info can be found on Openttdcoop as well
06:45<@planetmaker>V is currently offline
06:45<ZxBiohazardZx>by railtype, speed it shows you the curve lenght
06:45<ZxBiohazardZx>http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2009/05/13/about-curve-lengths/
06:45<@planetmaker>if he's online, he's here as well
06:45<@Alberth>alandarev: just try it, it's easy enough to test
06:47<ZxBiohazardZx>that cl diagram is accurate
06:47<ZxBiohazardZx>if you need more info on cl's for specific rails or vehicles (slugs for example have insane speeds and insane short CL)
06:47<ZxBiohazardZx>see the readme or simply try
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07:09<Eddi|zuHause>hm, is there a diff mode that ignores "moved" lines?
07:11<ZxBiohazardZx>http://superuser.com/questions/184969/how-to-ignore-moved-lines-in-a-diff
07:11<ZxBiohazardZx>https://github.com/l0b0/diff-ignore-moved-lines
07:11<ZxBiohazardZx>2 suggests that popped from tc caht :P
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07:58<alandarev>wtf are WETRails? (NUTS)
07:58<alandarev>can't find anything about them in wiki
07:59<alandarev>what, it's ships 0.o
08:00<Wolf01>eh, maybe it rained too much
08:00-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d00bf82.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
08:00<@Alberth>it looks like ships :)
08:00<alandarev>is there any way to disable WETRails?
08:00<@Alberth>ie it's nuts :)
08:01<@Alberth>quak frosch123
08:01<frosch123>moin
08:02<Zuu>alandarev: Just don't use it?
08:02<@Alberth>alandarev: if there is, it would be a newgrf parameter
08:02<Zuu>alandarev: Or does AIs in your game use it?
08:03<alandarev>Universal Rail in wiki is described as uber-cool fitting all rails, and slope setting is based on the locomotive property. The only issue it costs more.. But in game Uniersal Rail costs as much as normal rail :(
08:03<ZxBiohazardZx>any tt-forums mod online
08:03<ZxBiohazardZx>we have a spambot posting
08:03<ZxBiohazardZx>in high pace :p
08:03<ZxBiohazardZx>Malcolm298
08:04<alandarev>Zuu: no, but I just find it unreasaonble to have on my server :)
08:05<ZxBiohazardZx>its the latest addition to NUTS
08:06<ZxBiohazardZx>its like ships, its mostly a graphical joke, but they do serve a purpose slow & big capacity
08:09<frosch123>ZxBiohazardZx: afaik only orudge can remove a whole user and all the posts
08:10<frosch123>so, actualy it does not matter how much the bot spams
08:10<ZxBiohazardZx>hmmz k i didnt know :P
08:10<ZxBiohazardZx>some forums allow mods to add a user to banlist so he cant create more
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>but every forum admin should be able to move a user into a group where he cannot post anymore
08:11<ZxBiohazardZx>^^
08:11<frosch123>yeah, might be true :)
08:11<ZxBiohazardZx>last new messages all botspam
08:12<frosch123>well, just return in 12 hours :)
08:12<ZxBiohazardZx>3 pages worth of topics :P
08:12<ZxBiohazardZx>epic
08:19<frosch123>ZxBiohazardZx: see, compare 3 pages from a spamboit, with 713 pages from davew
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>who?
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>ah, right
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08:22<frosch123>we just need to train the spambots to only post in offtopic :)
08:22<frosch123>noone wil notice
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08:39<Eddi|zuHause>put a checkbox in the signup dialog "are you a spambot?" which will default to on, and humans who read the instructions will be able to turn it off
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>and if it is not turned off, then posting will be disabled :)
08:44<frosch123>yeah, or ask them about the the characters at the end of a word
08:45<Zuu>Or name the author of TTD :-)
08:46<frosch123>oh, yeah, or name the person who contributed most
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>name the current project leader
08:48<Wolf01>why not attach a patch for a bugfix?
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08:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25179 /extra/musa (3 files) (2013-04-13 12:49:02 UTC)
08:49<@DorpsGek>[musa] -Fix(r25162): add missing parameter to parse_file_args
08:50<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25180 extra/musa/misc.py (2013-04-13 12:50:14 UTC)
08:50<@DorpsGek>[musa] -Fix: The same variable name was used twice for different things when parsing recursive paths
08:54<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25181 /extra/musa (license.py misc.py) (2013-04-13 12:53:58 UTC)
08:54<@DorpsGek>[musa] -Fix: add license.txt to tar with POSIX path separator also on windows, so that musad.py can find it
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08:58<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25182 /extra/musa (3 files) (2013-04-13 12:58:09 UTC)
08:58<@DorpsGek>[musa] -Fix(r25145): Forgot to add a .id and .title file for scenarios and hegihtmaps
08:58<Wolf01>hegiht!
09:00<Zuu>Sorry for the inconvinece that that spelling error has caused you. :-)
09:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25183 extra/musa/type.py (2013-04-13 13:01:41 UTC)
09:01<@DorpsGek>[musa] -Fix(r25145): retain folders within script content
09:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25184 extra/musa/type.py (2013-04-13 13:08:05 UTC)
09:08<@DorpsGek>[musa] -Codechange: Remove magic argument type of find_file_in_list
09:09<Zuu>Now my patch queue is empty :-)
09:09<Wolf01>lucky you
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>how dare you
09:10<Wolf01>I have about 5 new features and a full load of bugfixes to commit on our cms
09:11<fonsinchen>What is musa anyway?
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>some automatted bananas upload thingie
09:12<Wolf01>http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/7067779_460s.jpg poor boy
09:13<Zuu>fonsinchen: a command line tool for uploading content to bananas
09:14<Zuu>It supports larger file sizes and more dependencies than the web UI.
09:14<fonsinchen>I see.
09:14<Zuu>Eg. for most users, the Web UI is still easiest. For some rare cases, musa will allow doing things not possible via web UI.
09:15<Zuu>For example, for Beginner Tutorial, I want to make the scenario depend on the NewGRF it uses. Also, it should depend on the AI and Game Scirpt used in the scenario. None of this is possible via the bananas web UI.
09:17<fonsinchen>I've noticed the scenario<->newgrf thing before. It's not really impossible to do that in the web UI, is it?
09:18<Zuu>I haven't seen it when updating a scenario.
09:19<Zuu>If you download my Split scenario, you will get a Split GS too, but that is basically a dB hack.
09:19<fonsinchen>I mean, you can state the dependencies but the UI will barf at you then. I think it should be possible to support that, though.
09:21<@planetmaker>you can't state with the web interface the proper deps. And yes.
09:21<Zuu>Oh, and while at it, musa support adding dependencies on old content. Eg. libraries older than the last version. However, to declare a dependency is a bit more work than just pick it from a list.
09:23<Zuu>For a musa dependency, you need the md5sum, uniqueid and type of the content to set up a dependency. Note that for scripts, it is not the md5sum of the tar-ball but only of the .nut files inside the tar. For my own use and possible others, I've created depgen.py which is included now in musa repository. It accepts a .tar from bananas and produces the musa dependency string for that content item.
09:23<frosch123>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2219/ <- pasting that again :p bananas should autodetect scenario dependencies and reject scnearios with stuff not on bananas :)
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09:27<fonsinchen>I see. Maybe you should turn the "dependencies" thing in the web UI off for scenarios then.
09:29<@planetmaker>fonsinchen, there's no doubt that the web UI should be improved
09:29<Zuu>fonsinchen: When you upload new, it will show a list of all possible dependencies as you has not yet selected the type to upload. (and it doesn't use javascript) When you update a scenario, the list of dependencies is empty.
09:29<@planetmaker>The difficulty to mess with that is high, though... non-public code, not documented
09:30<@planetmaker>due to passwords etc meddled in the code for DB access
09:30<@planetmaker>(or was that WT3?)
09:31<Zuu>planetmaker: bananas is in our vcs, however I've been told that the code in the vcs is not up to date compared to the one that is used on the live server.
09:31<fonsinchen>Oh, how lovely.
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09:33<@planetmaker>that way then. Doesn't help either :-)
09:34<fonsinchen>It just triggers some not so sweet memories of the job I've finally quit last month ...
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09:42<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25185 /trunk/src (20 files in 3 dirs) (2013-04-13 13:42:08 UTC)
09:42<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5508]: Remove ambivalent functions CargoList::Empty() and Count(), and replace them with VehicleCargoList::StoredCount(), TotalCount(), StationCargoList::AvailableCount() and TotalCount(). (fonsinchen)
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>in how many ways can you count cargos?
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>and maybe you didn't mean "ambivalent" but "ambiguous"?
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>or were the functions sometimes good and sometimes evil? :p
10:09<frosch123>maybe :)
10:11<fonsinchen>You can either count the cargo reserved for some vehicle as part of the vehicle's or as part of the station's cargo.
10:14<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you know, wrt. counting there are 3 groups of people
10:14<frosch123>those who can count, and those who cannot :)
10:15<@planetmaker>no, no. 10 groups of people
10:15<ZxBiohazardZx>Count in this ways is an ammount
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>Count Dracula
10:17<ZxBiohazardZx>:P
10:17<ZxBiohazardZx>you can Count on me
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>or possibly Count Dooku
10:18<ZxBiohazardZx>^^
10:18<ZxBiohazardZx>Graaf Tel! (Count von Count)
10:19<ZxBiohazardZx>In the Dutch version of the series, Sesamstraat, the Count's name is Graaf Tel (literally, "Count Count").
10:19<frosch123>oi, never knew there was an untranslatable pun in sesame street
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10:21<ZxBiohazardZx>count count is fun, but his name varies from country to country, making a similar joke
10:21<ZxBiohazardZx>count of counting in france, count of numbers in germany
10:22<frosch123>well, it works if you translate it back :p
10:22<frosch123>but there is no joke in "Graaf Tel" or "Graf Zahl"
10:22<ZxBiohazardZx>:P
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10:23<ZxBiohazardZx>true
10:34<alandarev>Help me with finding right Trains set. 2cc is cool but TOO large (though i like its balance), NUTS is good at choice but is too unrealistic, and economically easy
10:34<alandarev>suggest me some other trainset explaining it's pros and cons?
10:35<frosch123>you can adjust any "economically easy" via either a bastcost newgrf, or via freight multiplier
10:35<alandarev>frosch123: true, though with freight multiplier NUTS might become disbalanced, fast and weak trains will no longer be usable
10:36<frosch123>why? just attach multiple of them
10:36<ZxBiohazardZx>try the aus-set
10:36<ZxBiohazardZx>its a nice set
10:36<ZxBiohazardZx>canset is quite cheap
10:36<ZxBiohazardZx>but fun if you like steam/diesels
10:36<ZxBiohazardZx>you can try UKRS, NARS for more sets
10:37<Zuu>Or play with a Game Script that add some additional challenges to the game.
10:37<ZxBiohazardZx>UKRS is quite balanced set
10:37<@planetmaker>alandarev, "right" depends heavily on what you define as "right" or "nice"
10:37<alandarev>Zuu: playing CityBuilder
10:37<@planetmaker>there's no answer to it
10:38<alandarev>planetmaker: I tried to define the set I am looking for: balance similar to 2cc but around 5 times less trains and I really hate those monorails, maglev, trams and other stuff
10:38<ZxBiohazardZx>alandarev UKRS
10:39<ZxBiohazardZx>maybe even Dutch Trainset
10:39<@planetmaker>similar to 2cc is... a bad definition. What do you want from a trainset?
10:39<@planetmaker>what is balance?
10:39<alandarev>ZxBiohazardZx: ok will try UKRS today :)
10:39<@planetmaker>2ccTS is just a HUGE pile of trains thrown together. With rather high running costs by default
10:39<ZxBiohazardZx>he is looking for a set with similar costs/capacities and just less options/choices for engines
10:39<ZxBiohazardZx>try UKRS, aus-set, dutch set
10:39<alandarev>planetmaker: trains are quite expensive at running cost, so the profit is around 2-4 times larger than running cost
10:39<ZxBiohazardZx>they all have good and bad sides
10:40<@planetmaker>alandarev, then you simply want to use a base cost set which modifies those
10:40<@planetmaker>and then use the trainset which suits you otherwise
10:40<alandarev>planetmaker: :)) you are right. I just realized I would rather want a train set like NUTS but realistic
10:40<alandarev>by like NUTS I mean the balance between prices/runnig cost and types
10:40<@planetmaker>use UKRS or NARS. Or Dutchtrains.
10:41<alandarev>okay, thank you, I will try them
10:42<@planetmaker>for your own long-term joy stay away from generally unavailable trainsets :) You might otherwise find yourself in the position to not find the needed version at one stage.
10:43<ZxBiohazardZx>planet define generally unavailable trainsets?:P
10:44<@planetmaker>not-on-bananas
10:44<alandarev>ok
10:44<ZxBiohazardZx>ah good point
10:45<@planetmaker>I just compiled the other day 300+ nightly versions of a NewGRF to find the proper one
10:45<@planetmaker>and that was a NewGRF where I *do* have access to sources, thus best preconditions to find unavailable stuff
10:46<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=6054 <-- if you want to see a case of what might happen otherwise :-)
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10:57<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=21678&start=760 <-- there, Eddi|zuHause, you got your car analogy ;-)
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like i have the monopoly on car references...
10:59<@planetmaker>:-)
10:59<@planetmaker>I didn't mean to imply that. No, you indeed don't ;-)
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11:17<ZxBiohazardZx>lol
11:17<ZxBiohazardZx>if you cannot handle compiling/building then dont complain and use the provided game?
11:18<ZxBiohazardZx>http://www.cmake.org/ if only :P
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11:53<@Alberth>cmake will not solve the problems, only replace them with several other ones
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11:57<ZxBiohazardZx>partially true
11:58<ZxBiohazardZx>just the interface is somewhat friendlier when you pre-configured it the right way for your personal system/compiler etc
11:59<juzza1>http://wiki.openttd.org/Railway_station this page doesn't load at all for me, just shows a blank page
11:59<ZxBiohazardZx>loads for me
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>situation: "we need 7 tools to compile a program" - "what? we should make one tool that combines all this" - result: "you now need 8 tools to compile a program"
11:59<juzza1>ok, adding "s" to the end of the address fixed it
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12:00<ZxBiohazardZx>strange Juzza1 it works for me without stuff
12:00<ZxBiohazardZx>Eddi hmmz 7 tools? dafuq?
12:00<ZxBiohazardZx>for trinitycore c++ sources i need 2
12:00<ZxBiohazardZx>i need cmake to generate sln and i need vs to generate .exe
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>well that was the complaint in the forum
12:01<ZxBiohazardZx>Eddi now for ottd, dafuq, 7 programs cant be right :P
12:01<ZxBiohazardZx>i recall 1 or 2
12:01<juzza1>working fine for me now too, don't know what that was
12:01<ZxBiohazardZx>k juzza1 :)
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>you need gcc, you need make, you need several libraries installed, you need patch, you need svn, ...
12:02<ZxBiohazardZx>hmmz
12:02<ZxBiohazardZx>cmake can help then
12:02<ZxBiohazardZx>it merges the make and librairies :P
12:02<ZxBiohazardZx>but yeah
12:02<ZxBiohazardZx>in the end you need all the shit
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12:03<@Alberth>just install Linux :p
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>how does cmake help me install libpng-devel?
12:03-!-Flygon__ is now known as Flygon
12:03<ZxBiohazardZx>only question i wonder is why libs arent in sources / svn as "externals"
12:03<Flygon>I hate chopping off a long tail D:
12:03<ZxBiohazardZx>put libpng-devel in the sources and let cmake build the os/platform correct libs for the solution
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: why would you load this maintenance effort onto the developers?
12:04<ZxBiohazardZx>"maintenance effort" is not true, you just add them as "externals" folder
12:04<ZxBiohazardZx>we did so for tc, we added them once and its extremely rare they change
12:04<ZxBiohazardZx>thus sit and rot to prevent alot of cry-baby whining helps :P
12:04<frosch123>ZxBiohazardZx: you need all this shit only for windows
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: and what if several OSes have different versions installed, you need to keep around the sources for every version?
12:05<frosch123>albert is actually correct. if you want a single tool to compile ottd, use linux
12:05<ZxBiohazardZx>frosch true, but then again im wintendo
12:05<ZxBiohazardZx>Eddi you can, all libs are in source, the make-params define what gets used :P
12:05<ZxBiohazardZx>oh well
12:05<ZxBiohazardZx>the gain is none for this proj
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: i still fail to see how that is helping anybody
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: there is no reason why a user should re-compile libpng when his repo contains the devel files
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>or the other half dozen libs that openttd depends on
12:07<ZxBiohazardZx>eddi im not suggesting to implement it
12:07<ZxBiohazardZx>dont get me wrong :P
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you did
12:07<ZxBiohazardZx>i dont give a shit if anyone (including myself) cant compile :P
12:07<ZxBiohazardZx>i just cant recall i got externals on tc
12:07<ZxBiohazardZx>we put them in dep
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>even if the initial suggestion was a "joke", does not change the philosophy behind it
12:08<ZxBiohazardZx>ace, bzip2, g3dlite, gsoap, jemalloc, libmpq,mysqllite,zlib etc
12:08<ZxBiohazardZx>CMake configures all shit based on unix/windows/whatever platform you are on
12:09<ZxBiohazardZx>but yes, that does put all dependancies on the plate of devs
12:09<ZxBiohazardZx>choices
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>we already have a perfectly functional configure tool
12:10<ZxBiohazardZx>again dont change it :p
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12:11<ZxBiohazardZx>i just pointed out that there is a way to make those ppl have less programs clicks to compile
12:11<ZxBiohazardZx>:P
12:16<@planetmaker>nice, Eddi|zuHause. You wrote exactly on the lines which I was going to reply to, too :-)
12:17<ZxBiohazardZx>?
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12:23<@Alberth>ZxBiohazardZx: but configuration is covered already, we don't need yet another program for that
12:24<@Alberth>ie cmake does not solve that you don't have a compiler or all the required libraries
12:24<@planetmaker>yeah... configuration won't be easier with cmake. Not a single bit.
12:24<@planetmaker>as it's not a tool to install deps
12:24<@Alberth>also, cmake sucks big time for development
12:24<@planetmaker>^^ :D
12:25<@Alberth>it utterly fails to understand what a makefile is for
12:28<@Alberth>it also fails to understand non-standard setups, which is much worse
12:28<@planetmaker>I once tried to get cmake make OpenTTD. It was... annoying.
12:29<@planetmaker>That was before I properly learnt about how makefiles work :-) Once I knew how they work, OpenTTD seemed very clean and nice in that respect
12:33<@Alberth>hmm, those oil wells and forest keep producing more than I can move :)
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>how dare they!
12:33<@planetmaker>you keep building less capacity than the industries can ship :-P
12:34<@Alberth>upgrading to maglev downstream also takes its time :)
12:35<@Alberth>but you do get new pretty nuts pictures!
12:35<@planetmaker>:-)
12:35<@planetmaker>totally nuts :-P
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13:05<ZxBiohazardZx>i side with planet on the you building under capacity :)
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>"(pretty nuts) pictures" or "pretty (nuts pictures)" :)
13:07<ZxBiohazardZx>share pictures or didnt happen
13:11<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/pretty_nuts.png
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>the landscape looks imho really dull :/
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>not to speak of the ugly maglev tracks
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should try SMITS
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13:34<ZxBiohazardZx>Alberth your issue is throughput
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13:35<ZxBiohazardZx>also why use path signals there?
13:36<@Alberth>yeah, I http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/pretty_nuts2.png I was working on that :)
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>use path signals everywhere, unless absolutely necessary
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13:36<@Alberth>indeed, I only use path signals
13:39<ZxBiohazardZx>http://i.imgur.com/apkMCFE.jpg
13:39<ZxBiohazardZx>sexy :P
13:39<ZxBiohazardZx>anyway dont the path signals have longer calc-times
13:39<ZxBiohazardZx>i noticed in some coop games that the path signals where way slower on handling then pre-exit setup
13:40<ZxBiohazardZx>oh well
13:40<ZxBiohazardZx>would it not be easier to move the railyard up and add another platform?;)
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>"slower" in which metric?
13:40<ZxBiohazardZx>time a train waits before it turns green
13:41<ZxBiohazardZx>aka pre-end takes 1tick, pathfinder takes 2-5 ticks while multiple tracks are empty
13:41<ZxBiohazardZx>could be due to pathfinding or i dunno
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>that may be possible, because pre/exit signals do not listen on "path backoff" time
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>which is there to keep the performance heavy pathfinder calculations down
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13:42<Eddi|zuHause>you can set it to 1 (tick), but the game may or may not be playable anymore after this
13:44<ZxBiohazardZx>not risking it and its not up to me
13:44<ZxBiohazardZx>coop servers :P
13:44<ZxBiohazardZx>i started playing there like a while ago (cant remember) but i did get used to it quite fast
13:44<@Alberth>I just added two platforms :p
13:44<ZxBiohazardZx>ah ok
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25186 /trunk/src/lang (danish.txt korean.txt) (2013-04-13 17:45:14 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>danish - 1 changes by frosch
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 2 changes by telk5093
13:45<@Alberth>we have a new danish translator :P
13:49<frosch123>Sacro did not wanted to become one
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14:18<HellTiger>http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/7081750_460s.jpg
14:19<MNIM-zZz>eww 9gag
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14:20<ZxBiohazardZx>http://i.imgur.com/apkMCFE.jpg
14:22<Sacro>frosch123: Hej!
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>looks like pretty much every openttd screenshot on the forums :p
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>huge junction without any vehicles :)
14:25<MNIM-zZz>hahaha
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14:44<Eddi|zuHause>so, what happened to java applications being "portable"?
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>/home/johannes/.minecraft/bin/natives/liblwjgl.so: wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS32 (Possible cause: architecture word width mismatch)
14:45<frosch123>what's the problem? do they not fit on a portable usb stick?
14:45<@Alberth>they use non-java libraries?
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>i'm just saying...
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, next game then...
14:46<ZxBiohazardZx>http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=96301455#post96301455
14:46<ZxBiohazardZx>nice
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>what is "nice"?
14:51<__ln__>a city in southern france
14:51<ZxBiohazardZx>^^
14:52<ZxBiohazardZx>that road in st petersburg is not bad
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>no, that would be "Nice"
14:53<Wolf01>ZxBiohazardZx, give it 5 years with snow and bad maintenance
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>how can a steam update be 100MB?
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>how much can there possibly be in steam??
14:55<glx>flash;)
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>oh, there was something about steam not showing texts in wine
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15:04<Eddi|zuHause>hm, "converting existing installation" - from what to what? - and a "progress bar" that stays completely empty
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>obviously i'm not going to play anything tonight :/
15:08<ZxBiohazardZx>Wolf01 snow underneath nah
15:08<ZxBiohazardZx>but yeah wet and cold
15:08<ZxBiohazardZx>most likely they will use salts or chlorides to fuck it up :)
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>yeehah, and a "timeout" error...
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>and a "this article does not exist" error on clicking the link
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15:10<Eddi|zuHause>you know, chloride is the main component of salt...
15:10<ZxBiohazardZx>yes but not all salts are chlorides :P
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15:11<Eddi|zuHause>Natrium Chloride for your kitchen salts. on roads you'll probably meed Calcium Chloride or Magnesium Chloride
15:11<ZxBiohazardZx>ow it is actuallyXD
15:11<ZxBiohazardZx>NaCL :)
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>*meet
15:12<ZxBiohazardZx>ureum or calcium-magnesium-acetate are safe for steel
15:12<ZxBiohazardZx>or metal
15:12<ZxBiohazardZx>meh it will rot
15:12<ZxBiohazardZx>care less, its awesome for now
15:13<V453000>unicorns
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>you'll probably find chloride in unicorns as well
15:14<ZxBiohazardZx>nah
15:14<ZxBiohazardZx>unicorns are made of rainbows and ponytails
15:15<ZxBiohazardZx>ow no sorry
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>and who says there is no chloride in rainbows?
15:15<ZxBiohazardZx>Moonlight and Magic :)
15:15<ZxBiohazardZx>One popular opinion is that unicorns are made from moonlight and magic.
15:15<ZxBiohazardZx>wiki.answers.com thus it is true
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>where is that popular?
15:16<ZxBiohazardZx>your argument is invalid, cause.
15:18<goodger>"natrium chloride" what the hell, Eddi|zuHause
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>oh, right, i forgot
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's stubidly called "sodium" in weird language
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>because, why would you call the "Na" element something that doesn't start with NA ;)
15:20<goodger>hey, just because it's a stupid name doesn't mean it's right
15:21<goodger>we use words like "gold", "silver", "lead", "copper", "iron" and so forth, as well
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15:21<frosch123>you should all talk latin
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>not all element symbols are derived from their latin name :)
15:22<goodger>all of those are
15:22<frosch123>but they are all made to look latin
15:23<goodger>some are named so recently that they have latin-like names that match their elemental symbols
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure no ancient roman knew the word "Aluminium"
15:23<frosch123>nor Americum :p
15:23<frosch123>or Copernicum
15:23<frosch123>or Tycoonium
15:24<goodger>next you'll be saying "milliards", tsk
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>i've been saying milliards for years
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>[Sa Apr 26 2008] [01:12:52] <Eddi|zuHause2> ben_goodger: good luck feeding 6 milliard people with a neolithic society ;)
15:25<goodger>*shudder*
15:26<frosch123>should we say "mille" when we mean 1000 ?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>well, the french do that
15:26<goodger>revert directly to latin numerals
15:27<ZxBiohazardZx>there is no element with the letter J :(
15:27<goodger>in fact, I think this whole electricity thing is dangerously modern
15:27<frosch123>yeah, let's play ottd I.IV
15:27<ZxBiohazardZx>the only missing ones are J and Q
15:27<frosch123>ZxBiohazardZx: I and J are essentially the same letter
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>allegedly, the subtraction rule (IV) is actually a modern-time-y invention
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: latin doesn't really have a J
15:28<frosch123>is it? i have seen many IIII for 4, but 9 has always been IX
15:28<goodger>so, twelfth century?
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think i've seen some examples for VIIII
15:32<frosch123>hmm, medieval established K for 151 :s
15:33<goodger>wat
15:40<frosch123>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numbers#Middle_Ages.2FRenaissance <- a table of nonsense :)
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16:04<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i somehow doubt those were widespread, though
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16:08<frosch123>yeah, given the amount it looks more like regional dialects
16:14<glx><goodger> "natrium chloride" what the hell, Eddi|zuHause <-- I just call it salt
16:15<glx>or "chlorure de sodium"
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16:31<andythenorth>shading a coal mine Dan drew.... http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4274/CoalMine1.png
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17:03<V453000>the buildings look excellent andythenorth
17:03<andythenorth>:)
17:03<V453000>the left silo or whatever it is might use some improvements id say
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17:04<andythenorth>winding gear?
17:04<andythenorth>totally redrawing that :)
17:04<V453000>id say the construction legs could use some bright pixels and the gray thing on the top could use some more shades to make it more recognizable what it is
17:04<andythenorth>I can haz not shaded it yet :)
17:04<V453000>rite :)
17:05<andythenorth>supposed to be these http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1033/540901156_4943a25942_z.jpg
17:05<V453000>but the 2 buildings are absolutely awesome
17:05<andythenorth>needs....work
17:05<V453000>mhm
17:05<andythenorth>replace the opengfx coal mine? :P
17:05<V453000>totally different style but you have to start improving from somewhere :
17:05<V453000>:P
17:06<V453000>I am not sure about the heaps tho
17:07<V453000>the brighter gray could imo use one/two more brighter levels for more highlight, now it is completely random seemingly
17:07<V453000>but honestly drawing heaps is wtf-hard
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18:18<Wolf01>good night
18:18<__ln__>gn Wolf01
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19:28<Eddi|zuHause>why does oberhümer feel the need to include a spy-image in his signature?
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 14 00:00:20 2013