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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-04-20

---Logopened Sat Apr 20 00:00:26 2013
---Daychanged Sat Apr 20 2013
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00:05<csc>oh hello there
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02:01<csc>well was going to say hello but yeah..
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02:05<csc`>'lo planetmaker
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03:13<dimes>i did some searching but couldnt find the answer i wanted
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03:38<cSc>'lo LordAro
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03:43<Wolf01>hello o/
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03:45<cSc>'lo Wolf01
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04:37<cSc>I wonder how the palm pre handled OpenTTD
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04:38<cSc>'lo Alberth
04:40<cSc>i quite fail at it, but for some reason i can't seem to stop playing openttd after doing the tutorial
04:40<@Alberth>that's a known shortcoming of the game, it's too addictive :)
04:40<@Alberth>it will wear off in a couple of years :D
04:41<Wolf01>maybe three
04:41<cSc>even the outdated touchpad version is still addictive, albeit somewhat unplayable
04:43<cSc>Alberth, was I seeing incorrectly or did 'Sluthill' make it into the random town namefile?
04:45<@Alberth>random town names are just fragments that get concatenated, sometmes to funny and weird combinations
04:45<@Alberth>there are also townname grfs that have a simple list of names
04:47<@Alberth>I don't even know what the default game actually does with its names
04:47<@Alberth>I guess it's a list of fragments of english town names
04:47<cSc>yeah i think it was 1.1.2 or whichever is in ubuntu 12.10
04:48<cSc>but it generated 'New Sluthill' or something like that. Whichever it was, it had sluthill in it
04:48<@Alberth>town name generation has not changed for years
04:50<@Alberth>I remember seeing some posts about weird town names, but they are mostly just random posts
04:53<cSc>Is it possible to use some sort of AI script to manage some things?
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04:54<@Alberth>not an AI, an AI is like a normal player, but computer controlled
04:54<@Alberth>you may want to look at game scripts, which exist to "rule" the world for all players
04:55<cSc>dont see any available ones to do what im talking about
04:55<@Alberth>you mean a script to help you?
04:55<@Alberth>no, those don't exist to keep the playing field level in multi-player games
04:56<@Alberth>what kind of problem do you have?
04:56<cSc>lack of asian micromanagement skills
04:56<@Alberth>openttd has lots of somewhat hidden features to make your life easier
04:57<@Alberth>for example??
04:58<cSc>just seems like there's way too much to manage with multiple towns
04:59<cSc>also saw a 'repair vehicles' feature but couldn't figure out how to use it
04:59<cSc>or replace, rather
04:59<@Alberth>yes, that one is a bit tricky :)
05:00<@Alberth> <-- thins one :)
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05:01<@Alberth>where are you stuck?
05:02<cSc>my road transportation got too complicated and failed due to oldness
05:02<cSc>but was apparently profitable
05:02<@Alberth>that's autorenew
05:03<@Alberth>ie buy a new instance of the same model = renew, buy a new instance of a different model = replace
05:03<juzza1>how long is one engine tick in OTTD? is it the same as regular tick (30ms)?
05:03<@Alberth>juzza1: It's in the FAQ somewhere
05:04<@Alberth>'length of a day' or so
05:05<juzza1>yeah thats the regular tick, but there is also a reference to an "engine tick" in the sound effect callbacks
05:05<juzza1>and i didnt find any info in the faq about engine tick
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05:10<@Alberth>sorry, no idea then
05:11<cSc>and i just figured out possibly the most useful feature in the game
05:11<cSc>shared cloning
05:21<cSc>trying not to hemorrhage cash and attack subsidies is quite hard =\
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05:22<LordAro>moin all (again)
05:22<Wolf01>hello lord
05:23<LordAro>hi Tungsten :P
05:23<LordAro>(yes, i read the logs)
05:23<LordAro>don't judge me
05:28<cSc>any strategies for not overwhelming yourself with the massive micromanagement tasks in openttd?
05:29<Wolf01>don't micromanage
05:29<@Alberth>it's not worth the trouble, you make enough money without micro managing everything
05:29<@Alberth>Hi Lord Aro
05:30<LordAro>hai Alberth
05:30<LordAro>you realise you won't highlight me if you put a space between the words, right? :P
05:30<Wolf01>just buy 2 airports on distant cities and purchase some airplanes... you could then enjoy building other things and try out features, until a plane crash :P
05:31<Wolf01>*just build
05:31<LordAro>Surely you should build 3 airports then? :)
05:31<cSc>Wolf01, i found that road vehicles are more profitable in the long run
05:31<cSc>airports tend to fail after three years
05:32<LordAro>9+ years of other poeple playing would suggest otherwise
05:32<cSc>while the road vehicle transport lasted longer than the vehicles as terms of profitability
05:32<@Alberth>LordAro: yes
05:32<Wolf01>I could purchase an entire new train for every delivery of an aircraft after just 6 months of game
05:33<@Alberth>but I assume you read it at your convenience, no need to draw your attention to it
05:33<LordAro>ok, Albert h :P
05:33<LordAro>(i'll stop now)
05:33<cSc>Wolf01, i found the trains to be unreliable :(
05:33<cSc>and difficult to create properly
05:33<@Alberth>bye LordAro :p
05:33<Wolf01>but trains are the fun part :D
05:33<@Alberth>cSc: build more depots :)
05:34<Wolf01>massive stations and 8 way junctions
05:34<@Alberth>or cheat by turning off breakdowns :(
05:34<cSc>yeah the breakdowns was what hit profitability
05:34<cSc>in the beginning i see that road transit is key
05:34<cSc>atleast for a basic reliable income long term
05:35<@Alberth>cSc: with breakdowns enabled, buying reliable engines is THE key
05:35<cSc>i did
05:35<@Alberth>nope, trains are way more profitable than trucks
05:35<cSc>profitable yes
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05:35<cSc>reliable and sustainable? not in the beginning imo
05:35<Wolf01>I don't care about my trains, some of them make something like 1M of loss a year, and the next year they make 10M income, just because the route is long and they take more than one year to deliver and come back
05:36<LordAro>realism :P
05:36<cSc>im making about 30k sustained from my road transit
05:36<Wolf01>I tried to fix it, ad you well know it :(
05:36<cSc>just from one mail route and four public transit systems
05:37<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps you carried the wrong cargo?
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05:38<cSc>linked every industry available on the map
05:38<cSc>just on one rail
05:38<cSc>which was the issue
05:38<Wolf01>don't use trains for mail/passenger service until you have big cities, build a route between a coal mine and a power plant which are at least at "one screen" of distance, then you will see how much trains are profitable ;)
05:39<cSc>but multiple raillines i found tedious to create
05:39<cSc>not to mention require massive space
05:39<@Alberth>you need signals :)
05:39<cSc>...that...was not covered in the tutorial
05:40<cSc>nor were rail systems
05:40<cSc>the tutorial in reference is the scenario available via the online content
05:41<LordAro>a missing feature :)
05:42<LordAro> should help
05:43<@Alberth> simple straightforward building multiple trains sharing the tracks
05:43<@Alberth>and just use one way path signals for everything
05:44<cSc>as if managing a road transit system was hard enough
05:44*cSc glares at the wiki article
05:44<@Alberth>you have to do something for the next three years :p
05:45<@Alberth>at the bottom of that Signals page, there are a few other tutorials that several people consider very good
05:46<@Alberth>but often they try to explain all signal types, while imho, for starting you should just stick to one.
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05:47<cSc>so basically just go with an outbound/inbound track system
05:47<@Alberth>unfortunately, much of the wiki is for intermediate to advanced, there is little material for beginners
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05:49<@Alberth>if you post a save game, and ask for help, you will get feedback on things you can change or improve
05:49<cSc>hence why i played openttd and was like "...screw this."
05:50<@Alberth>alternatively, look at what other people do in the scenario and savegame section of the forum
05:50<cSc>im just doing new and random
05:50<cSc>but this time im not using fast forward
05:50<LordAro>probably most people who play OTTD now used to play Transport Tycoon, back in the day
05:50<cSc>just kinda chillaxing
05:50<cSc>LordAro, never played it. ;p
05:51<@Alberth>one problem is that most people here fall in the "advanced category", which makes it hard to make material that is understandable by new users
05:51<LordAro>i had guessed as much :P
05:51<@Alberth>trying random things is a good way to discover how it works
05:51<cSc>while you were playing the original transport tycoon
05:52<cSc>i was probably having a blast in simant
05:52*LordAro has not heard of simant
05:58<@Alberth> :)
05:58<@Alberth>never played it, it looked too much like simcity :)
05:59<LordAro>thanks for doing the research for me :)
05:59<Tulitomaatti>ebin simant
06:00<LordAro>hmm, y'know, i think i might actually have heard of that
06:04<Wolf01>anyone playing with minecraft 13w16a? it's me or skeletons disappeared from the game? (playing on normal)
06:05<cSc>dont think they have
06:05<cSc>perhaps its a bug
06:05<cSc>i dont play weeklies
06:05<LordAro>Wolf01: i have not played it personally, but i have not seen any reports of that being the case
06:06<cSc>Alberth, its an interesting game to say the least. Simant that is
06:07<LordAro>minecraft's fairly interesting too :)
06:07<@Alberth>if only one could get paid to play games all day :p
06:07<cSc>runs like crap on this laptop though
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06:19<cSc>Alberth, curious, what are the most notable features between 1.2 and 1.3?
06:19<cSc>if you're bored enough to enumerate
06:20<Wolf01>oh, a skeleton, finally
06:20<LordAro> <-- i think thats the right link
06:20<cSc>Wolf01, you do know how entities work in minecraft, right? if the maximum available number of entities is spawned, it will not spawn new ones until the others despawn
06:21<cSc>you could end up with 30 creepers
06:21<LordAro>Wolf01: you probably just got (un)lucky
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06:23<cSc>LordAro, in other words, nothing but bugfixes and features i probably will never find :P?
06:23<Wolf01>I think this is related to the new "region difficulty" changes, usually I can't exit from my house at night because of skeletons (last game I found also 2 spider jockeys at once), this time there are 3 or 4 zombies, 2 creepers, one spider, and I'm playing for 2 hours so far
06:23<@Alberth>cSc: <-- click 'changelog' there :)
06:24<@Alberth>I never play with stables, so I don't really know
06:24<cSc>Alberth, thats where i got the current build from
06:24<cSc>slow ubuntu is slow.
06:24<cSc>haven't even changed their countdown page yet
06:25<cSc>and iirc Raging Racehorse is out in a few weeks
06:25<cSc>or whatever animal they've decided on
06:25<@Alberth>ubuntu is based on debian, and debian is not a distribution using bleeding edge software
06:26<cSc>12.10 uses 1.2.1
06:26<cSc>13.04 will use 1.3
06:27<@Rubidium>cSc: will it?
06:27<@Rubidium>based on what?
06:27<cSc>Rubidium, based on their repository
06:28<cSc>whenever i find that something is outdated i google the distro and version in question
06:28<cSc>the next version of *buntu will have 1.3 in the repos
06:28<@Rubidium> says 1.2.3
06:28<@Rubidium>there is a wishlist bug to update to 1.3.0, but that's arguably not going to happen
06:28*cSc shrugs
06:28<cSc>could've sworn it said 1.3
06:29<cSc>but then again i was confused with revision numbers
06:29<@Rubidium>but then... Ubuntu is weird; an AI is trunk of OpenTTD?!?
06:30<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: 3 weeks should be more than enough to package something
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>not if it's already on freeze :)
06:30<@Rubidium>also, April fits very well with the .10 cycles
06:32<cSc>really wish the webos port was updated :(
06:32<cSc>1.1 seems so old
06:32<@Rubidium>mid june they'll stop importing stuff from Debian, which'd be the first or second bugfix releas of a stable cycle which is arguably better than the first one
06:33<cSc>i could probably build it myself
06:33<cSc>but meh
06:33<cSc>too damn lazy and not enough space for the wdk
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07:39<Wolf01>I called the skeletons, eh...
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08:05<Wolf01>moin frosch123
08:06<frosch123>quak )
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12:55<LordAro>dang internets
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15:27<cSc>road system still chugging, single train profit died within 5 years
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15:56*andythenorth is back on a 5400rpm spinning drive after 12 months of SSD
15:56<andythenorth>it's like getting into economy class after club class :(
15:57<cSc>andythenorth, failed on you?
15:58<@Rubidium>andythenorth: join TB's club
15:58<andythenorth>bought a new one, stupid mac won't see it
15:58<cSc>andythenorth, seen hybrids yet?
15:58<andythenorth>I expected it to fail at some point
15:58<andythenorth>stupid thing
15:59<+glx>failure is not progressive on SSD ?
15:59<andythenorth>yes it is
15:59<andythenorth>in a disk test, it will now only do sequential read or write around 2MB/s
15:59<andythenorth>my spinning drive does about 40MB/s
15:59<andythenorth>but....stupidly it will still do 1GB/s random read / write
15:59<andythenorth>(the SSD)
16:00<andythenorth>assuming it doesn't lie
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16:06<andythenorth>any ottd chat?
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16:07<@Rubidium>what's that?
16:09<cSc>andythenorth, look into a hybrid next time.
16:09<andythenorth>Rubidium: it's a game
16:09<andythenorth>needs some work though
16:10<andythenorth>not done yet
16:10<@Rubidium>sounds like a boring thing
16:10<andythenorth>strictly o/t here though
16:10<andythenorth>just some dumb train sim
16:10<@Rubidium>hope it's not better than simsig
16:17<cSc>i heard it sucked more than truck simulator 2013
16:19<Supercheese>SimSig? is that a police training program or something? :P
16:20<andythenorth>are forums gone away?
16:21<cSc>the game sucked so bad that EA came and joined the forums. Everyone left.
16:21<@Rubidium>andythenorth: it's not away or awry for me
16:25<andythenorth>just me then :P
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19:24<Supercheese>Any vehicle variables to detect whether the vehicle is above or below the snowline?
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19:25<Supercheese>Or, roughly equivalently, a variable that reports vehicle height (for non-aircraft)?
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19:27<Supercheese>Vehicle array offset 1E claims to store "Z location (altitude)"
19:42<Supercheese>Works as expected, that variable (divided by 8) seems to report vehicle height
19:43<Supercheese>Why 8) is an emoticon is beyond me
19:43<Supercheese>1E รท 8 = height
19:49<@planetmaker>I would expect it to report differently in grf v7 and grf v8
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>vehicles can have sub-height-positions
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>thus i don't think this one was changed in grfv8
19:56<Supercheese>Yeah, sub-heights would be useful in some instances I suppose
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>i think some russian (bus?) set shows sloped vehicles
20:00<Supercheese>I guess they can do that by checking if the sub-height is not a multiple of eight... but then they'd have to check for ascending, descending, direction...
20:00<Supercheese>I wonder what checks that would take
20:00<Supercheese>abuse temp storage?
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>use articulated vehicles, and you have a height difference
20:01<Supercheese>ah, yes
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>or check the sub-X/X-position
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>(you need to know driving side for that)
20:02<Supercheese>that mightn't work for trains
20:02<Supercheese>but anyway, I'm not particularly interested in sloped vehicles, though the thought is nice
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>but you should also know the travel direction
20:03<Supercheese>was more going for a check for (snowline_height - vehicle_height) to decide sprites for snowy/nonsnowy
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>and there might also be ascending/descending flags somewhere
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>lots of ways this can work
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure how they did it
20:04<Supercheese>true enough
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>i know how i would do it, but i won't do it, multiple angles is already bad enough :p
20:05<Supercheese>CETS already has enormous sprite counts
20:05<Supercheese>adding slopes would just make things far worse
20:05<Eddi|zuHause>i currently use the height difference of var61 only to back out of the slicing magic
20:05<Eddi|zuHause>because it won't work in non-flat situations
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>it might be 4 or 12 additional views (+50%), until diagonal slopes are introduced...
20:08<Supercheese>hah, diagonal slopes
20:08<Supercheese>those'll happen when diagonal tunnels and bridges do, right ;) ?
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't think it'll be worth it, because it currently isn't that bad
20:09<Supercheese>at 1x zoom things are fine
20:09<Supercheese>at 4x zoom, well, many things look off but the funicularity of vehicles looks strange as well
20:09<Supercheese>if "funicularity" is even a word
20:10<Supercheese>4x zoom... I still haven't worked on extra zoom sprites
20:12<Supercheese>does CETS do extra zoom sprites?
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'd like to have x2 sprites, but x4 is probably overkill
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>the current artists refused to do those, though
20:14<Supercheese>I wonder if doing only 4x and having OTTD rescale the 2x would look ok
20:15<Supercheese>rescale for 2x*
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20:19<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea
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20:53<Supercheese>cargo capacity multipliers are weird
20:53<Supercheese>4 tons = 16 passengers
20:54<Supercheese>those are some very heavy people :P
20:54<Supercheese>I guess if you figure people + luggage it makes a tad more sense
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>maybe they're americans :p
20:59<Supercheese>oh snap
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 21 00:00:30 2013