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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-04-29

---Logopened Mon Apr 29 00:00:41 2013
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01:52<TheBix>does it work like
01:52<TheBix>the more coverage tiles you have over an industry the faster your train fills up or something?
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02:40<juzza1>doesnt matter for industries
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02:42<@Alberth>moin
02:42<@planetmaker>moin
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02:58<JdGordon|>is there any way to increase the amount of cargo new industries generate as the game progresses? It's crap having a new (i.e) copper mine which does <80T/m late game, not worth building the train to it
03:03<@Alberth>serve the mine well, and it will increase output in time
03:03<@Alberth>always have a train loading
03:04<@Alberth>short trains are better since you deliver the ore faster then
03:04<@Alberth>building a statue in the associated village also helps
03:05<@Alberth>there are a couple of other things you can do, see the Game Mechanics page at the wiki for all the details
03:05<@Alberth>you can also start with trucks :)
03:06<JdGordon|>sure, but thats just slow
03:06<JdGordon|>and pointless after 2000
03:07<@Alberth>not sure, iirc you need to have regular visits to the station, which will happen automagically with trucks
03:08<@Alberth>and with 80T/m being slow doesn't really matter, as it won't make a huge difference no matter how you transport it
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03:20<TheBix>guys I just noticed
03:20<TheBix>if you have like a simple shuttle train
03:20<TheBix>and its using a dual head engine
03:20<TheBix>and the station is say 4 units long
03:21<TheBix>the head can sit outside the station so you can still have 7 carriages
03:21<TheBix>and a total length of 4.5
03:22<@planetmaker>you can also send a 18-tile train to a 4-tile station. Loading time will suck big time, though
03:22<TheBix>yeah I think loading time is decreased with my train
03:22<TheBix>which is bullshit since it theoretically should be the same considering all carriages are in the station
03:23<TheBix>(I meant increased loading time)
03:23<@planetmaker>yeah. Sadly the engine driver can't get to the loo quickly. Thus it takes longer
03:23<@planetmaker>work safty regulations
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03:27<@planetmaker>besides this reasoning, the statement: "train must not be longer than station" is easy to comprehend.
03:28<@planetmaker>or next it will be "oh, I only have 3 grain wagons - it should load at normal speed" etc. Which would be totally over-engineered
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03:40<@Alberth>there are always limits, and users always wants to go just beyond the limit. We can move the limit, but users just move along with it and want the next step. Also, it makes the game less challenging.
03:40<@Alberth>Eventually, you'll end up with an empty field, and a button "you've won"
03:41<@Alberth>Personally, I prefer a little more challenge than pressing a button ;)
03:44<juzza1>when will openttd get epic cutscenes and xp system?
03:44<juzza1>maybe a closeup "kill-cam" for a huge train unloading
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03:50<@Alberth>probably when hell freezes over
03:53<TheBix> how often do farms rebuild
03:53<TheBix>they all just shut down and then I have huge patches of empty land
03:54<@Rubidium>Alberth: Hell freezes over yearly
03:54<@Alberth>:)
03:57<@Rubidium>lol...
03:57<@Rubidium>apparantly miss universe 1990 came from Hell ;)
04:07<TheBix>guys how often do you end up doing something like this?
04:07<TheBix>http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Cn1iJmTtEOw#t=75s
04:07<TheBix>by "this", I mean making a really tiny railway like that
04:07<TheBix>ahhhh
04:07<TheBix>wrong link
04:07<TheBix>I mean
04:07<TheBix>http://www.eshays.org/images/box/508983805.jpg
04:08<sla_ro|master>you can make a canal for that
04:08<sla_ro|master>not a railway
04:08<sla_ro|master>cost more, but you get more profit overtime
04:09<@Rubidium>you're better off building the station next to the oil rig
04:09<sla_ro|master>or yea
04:09<sla_ro|master>That what i mostly like :P
04:09<sla_ro|master>i did that in few maps
04:09<sla_ro|master>made a small island and a station on it
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06:26<JdGordon|>is there any way to do partial train unloads?
06:27<JdGordon|>I'm playing with the neighbours are important GS and having heaps of short trains to get the needed goods/etc to heaps of citieis sucks
06:29<@Alberth>no afaik, perhaps with time tables, but I don't know
06:29<@Alberth>build a distribution center outside town, and transport with trucks?
06:30<TheBix>trucks are actually the shittest
06:31<TheBix>if I ever set up a truck system
06:31<TheBix>it works well for a bit
06:31<TheBix>but if theres ever any delay in supplies
06:31<TheBix>they all lose me money
06:31<@Alberth>the same happens with trains that get in a jam
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06:31*JdGordon| wonders where in the code to start looking into the unloading logic
06:32<@Alberth>except their profit is so big you don't notice it
06:33<@Alberth>train_cmd probably, in some Cmd Load/Unload function
06:33<@Alberth>just grep -i unload src/train_*cpp :)
06:37<@Alberth>JdGordon|: you can also sent one short train back and forth between the distribution center and several cities
06:37-!-Flygon__ is now known as Flygon
06:43<JdGordon|>Alberth: well, I'm attempting to mix my openttd addiction and need to improve/practice my C++, so see if the code can make this happen is a good idea
06:43<JdGordon|>and on that note... FFS C++ :'(
06:44<JdGordon|>the issue with 1 train and multiple stops is you'll end up with clones which will end up in the same section of the order
06:46<@Alberth>c++ is a challenge :p
06:47<@Alberth>but arguably, train orders are one of the more complicated parts of the game
06:48<@Alberth>so many cases to consider
06:49<@Alberth>you may want to search for some already existing art in extending train orders
06:54<JdGordon|>I'm trying to get my head around LoadUnloadVehicle()
06:54<JdGordon|>giving up is definitly going to be easier!
06:55<@Alberth>I only rewrote the GUI system, so don't ask me :)
06:56<@Alberth>learning a program this large is not something you do in an afternoon or even in a week
06:56<JdGordon|>hehe, closer to GUI then, is diagnoal bridges and tunnels impossible?
06:57<@Alberth>c++ is turing complete, so almost nothing is impossible :p
06:57<@Rubidium>JdGordon|: depends on what you want to sacrifice
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06:57<@Alberth>the problem is however in the map data rather than the gui
07:06<@planetmaker>JdGordon|, the best solution to delver small amounts is to create a distribution station. Use transfer orders for the trains. And do small short-distance deliveries by cars
07:07<@planetmaker>of course that involves no C/C++ meddling :D
07:07<JdGordon|>trains are more fun :p
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09:43<@Belugas>helo
09:46<__ln___>you could say that
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09:53<@Alberth>o/
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09:58<fanzeyi>Hi, guys. How to prevent transport the passenger back to origin when dealing with re-transport?
09:59-!-TrueBrain [~truebrain@ip82-139-82-247.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Quit: reboot]
10:02<fanzeyi>for example, this station ( http://cl.ly/image/1b1p3P3I1J1k ) has three kinds of passenger. My ship transport them from `Rendinghattan Ducks` but they are always on the ship back to `Rendinghattan Ducks` rather than the trains to `Monburg`. Any solution to solve this ?
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>it's not possible
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>see http://wiki.openttd.org/Two-way_feeder_service
10:04<V453000>just make 2 stations where one is meant to go towards one and the other station meant to go towards the other destination
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>(although i currently can't seem to reach that site)
10:05<fanzeyi>Eddi|zuHause: thanks, I could use Google Search Cache ;)
10:06<fanzeyi>V453000: ok, Im going to try it, thanks :D
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10:22<@planetmaker>or test cargodist
10:22<@planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cargodist/
10:22<@planetmaker>namely http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cargodist/releases/g6accbf6e-cd/
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10:49<fanzeyi>planetmaker: wow, cool patch. thank you.
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11:04<Eddi|zuHause>uuh, i've got an actually loaded savegame now :)
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>but i should probably fix loading path reservations, or i might get unpleasent surprises :)
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11:22<Eddi|zuHause>hm... www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%2023.%20Maer%201942.png :p
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>anyone notice something being wrong with resizing in sdl? i can only resize horizontally, or vertically, but if i resize both directions, the drawing area doesn't resize with it
11:24<V453000>lol wtf
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>yay, it crashes on unpausing :)
11:26<peter1139>sdl in general?
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>OpenTTD using SDL
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>r25188
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11:28<Eddi|zuHause>64bit
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>"Build date: Apr 16 2013 17:30:30" <-- i guess that detection is mildly broken
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11:38<Eddi|zuHause>ha, it seems to crash on this exact train
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>i guess i need some better conversion of some things
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>which revision was the yapp merge?
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>or better: which savegame version?
11:43<frosch123>it was 2008-08-03
11:49<@Alberth>it was a warm day, and I ate a strawberry pie :p
11:54<frosch123>i prefer ice cream
11:55<@Alberth>strawberry pie and ice cream need not be mutual exclusive :)
11:56<Tulitomaatti>indeed
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>can't have the pie and ice it too :p
12:00<Tulitomaatti>too bad ottd won't do my tax documents for me
12:00<frosch123>never read the wiki page about ottd then
12:00<frosch123>it has some scary references to literature in that area
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13:30<Wolf01>o/
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25211 /trunk/src/lang (vietnamese.txt welsh.txt) (2013-04-29 17:45:59 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>vietnamese - 4 changes by nglekhoi
13:46<@DorpsGek>welsh - 4 changes by kazzie
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14:08<@Alberth>\o
14:12<@planetmaker>wb Alberth :-)
14:13<@Terkhen>hello
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15:11<Wolf01>hello Alberth
15:12<@Alberth>hello Wolf01
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15:46<Wolf01>'night
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16:09<andythenorth>hmm
16:09<andythenorth>river code is pretty neat
16:10<andythenorth>rubidium's comment "oh I hacked it dirtily on a-star' or such is a bit self-deprecating
16:10<@Alberth>don't touch it :)
16:10<@planetmaker>oh, that river code :D
16:10<andythenorth>I wanted to make estuaries :P
16:11<andythenorth>by doubling river width 5 tiles or so back from sea
16:11<frosch123>a-star with a random cost function, iirc :)
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16:16<frosch123>night
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16:17<andythenorth>ho
16:17*andythenorth managed an assert
16:18<andythenorth>aren't I clever :P
16:22<andythenorth>oh look, bigger rivers :P http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4331/rivers.png
16:23<andythenorth>it's amazing how far you can get in C++ using copy-paste-hack, and no idea what you're doing
16:25<andythenorth>4 tile wide is pretty neat
16:26<@Rubidium>andythenorth: a dirty trick can be codes cleanly
16:26<@Rubidium>just like a clean solution can be coded in a dirty manner
16:27<andythenorth>I don't think I've managed either :P
16:28<andythenorth>I want to find out if the current tile is < 5 tiles away from end node
16:29<andythenorth>and then I guess do a circular search and MakeRiver on neighbouring tiles
16:29<@planetmaker>you can't 'make river' on most slopes
16:30<andythenorth>my code is trying to make river on something that frequently causes asserts, but not always
16:30<andythenorth>also the assert itself crashes?
16:30<@planetmaker>that's the wrong slopes.
16:30<andythenorth>2013-04-29 21:28:11.144 openttd[63208:7e0b] NSAlert is being used from a background thread, which is not safe. This is probably going to crash sometimes. Break on void _NSAlertWarnUnsafeBackgroundThreadUsage() to debug. This will be logged only once. This may break in the future.
16:30<andythenorth>ho
16:30*andythenorth has an idea
16:31<andythenorth>wider river before and after rapids :P
16:32<@planetmaker>or introduce more river tiles :D
16:35<@Alberth> make WETLAND :)
16:36<@Rubidium>rivers with foundations?
16:37<@Alberth>land that looks like a rivers :)
16:37<andythenorth>ha ha
16:37<andythenorth>my hack works :D :o
16:37<+glx>OSX and its nice messages
16:38<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4334/rivers_hack.png
16:38<@Rubidium>glx: who cares? If it breaks in the future, then fine. We won't be supporting that version anyhow
16:38<@Alberth>SVN is getting better at its messages too :)
16:38<andythenorth>something screwy at the river mouth though :o
16:39<andythenorth>I guess the last tile shouldn't do a circular search :P
16:39<@Alberth>good night
16:39<@planetmaker>g'night Alberth
16:39<@Rubidium>night Albert
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16:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth, screwy as in rivers placed at sea level. That leaves exactly that result
16:40<@planetmaker>similar to canals
16:40*andythenorth fixing
16:41<andythenorth>or not
16:41<andythenorth>more asserts :P
16:41<andythenorth>need to get WATER_CLASS_SEA
16:41<andythenorth>meh
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16:43<andythenorth>what should happen if I call GetWaterClass(tile) on a tile which isn't water? o_O
16:44<V453000>oh god fat rivers :D
16:44<@Rubidium>andythenorth: assert?
16:44<@planetmaker>andythenorth, 'not water'. There's a return value indicating that
16:44<V453000>make them revive-able first :P
16:44<@planetmaker>at least in NewGRF specs
16:44<andythenorth>I have asserts left right and center
16:44<andythenorth>I probably need to check for more tile cases I guess
16:45<andythenorth>maybe it's hitting houses or objects or something?
16:45<@Rubidium>but the documentation of GetWaterClass already says what is required to call it
16:45<andythenorth>documentation :P
16:46<V453000>achievement unlocked: banned on simuscape bananas thread :D
16:46<@planetmaker>congratz?
16:46<V453000>yes :D
16:46<andythenorth>you silly pickle
16:49<@planetmaker>I'm surprised that it is still an issue over there
16:50<@Rubidium>V453000: luckily it's not public ;)
16:50<V453000>:P
16:50<V453000>planetmaker: I cant say I have been calming down the discussion :P
16:50<andythenorth>grr
16:51<andythenorth>so I have to check for sea somehow :P
16:51<@planetmaker>hm
16:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25212 /branches/1.3 (47 files in 5 dirs) (2013-04-29 20:50:58 UTC)
16:51<@DorpsGek>[1.3] -Backport from trunk:
16:51<@DorpsGek>- Feature: Translations of baseset descriptions via language files (r25209, r25205)
16:51<@DorpsGek>- Fix: The level crossing sound is an ambient sound and not a new year sound (r25200)
16:51<andythenorth>if (GetWaterClass(tile) != WATER_CLASS_SEA) causes assert
16:51<andythenorth>I think
16:51<andythenorth>but the assert might be caused by something else entirely
16:51<andythenorth>yes
16:51<andythenorth>I can perfectly get an assert without that check in place :P
16:52<andythenorth>http://pastie.org/7739687
16:52<andythenorth>I guess I need to check more tile conditions
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16:54<@Rubidium>andythenorth: edge-of-map?
16:54<andythenorth>hmm
16:54<andythenorth>I am looking for other code to c+p :)
16:54<andythenorth>MakeRiver doesn't fail in other places
16:56<@Rubidium>maybe there's something on the tile that can't be removed?
16:56<@Rubidium>industry?
16:56<@Rubidium>and MakeRiver replaces then just one of the tiles of the whole industry
16:56<andythenorth>so I need to check other stuff
16:58*andythenorth wonders what does IsValidTile does
16:58<andythenorth>seems to help
16:58<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Call HasTileWaterClass() before getting the water class.
16:59*andythenorth tries
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17:02<andythenorth>works
17:06<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4337/rivers_hack_no_sea_bug.png
17:06<andythenorth>kind of stupid :)
17:09<@planetmaker>andythenorth, on slopes you could simply check for the right slope instead of ignoring them entirely
17:09<andythenorth>that's what I'm trying to figure out next :)
17:09<andythenorth>bit lost so far :P
17:10<andythenorth>seems to be based on figuring out the height level
17:10<@planetmaker>you can check for slope directly...
17:11<andythenorth>trying to find an example
17:13<andythenorth>IsInclinedSlope(slope) looks plausible
17:14<andythenorth>ha ha
17:14<andythenorth>works...sometimes :P
17:14<andythenorth>not at all on coasts
17:18<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4340/rivers_hmm.png
17:18<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2242/
17:19<@planetmaker>IsInclinedSlope checks for the allowed slopes
17:19<@planetmaker>you found it :D
17:21<andythenorth>can't figure out if the coast issue is because I'm on IsWaterTile(end) or because it's a coast tile
17:22<andythenorth>or maybe it's my check for water
17:22<andythenorth>coasts have water
17:22<andythenorth>yeah
17:22<andythenorth>it's that :P
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17:27<andythenorth>so how do I count nodes in River_FoundEndNode?
17:27<andythenorth>I want to check if I'm in the last 4 or 5 nodes or so?
17:28<@planetmaker>just check whether the tile is already sea water?
17:29<andythenorth>I need to walk the wider section back a bit further from sea than that
17:29<andythenorth>I figured something like if node number > (last node - 5)
17:29<andythenorth>but I dunno if I can count nodes that way
17:30<Supercheese>Trying to calculate the river delta delta, eh?
17:31<Supercheese>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4337/rivers_hack_no_sea_bug.png oh I see
17:32<andythenorth>2 tile rivers look neat
17:32<andythenorth>but there are lots of pissy edge cases
17:32<andythenorth>need terraforming :P
17:32<andythenorth>or removal of nonsense elements
17:34<andythenorth>unusable slopes cause these 1 tile stubs: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4343/nonsense.png
17:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth, looks a bit funky but IMHO not totally out-of-place
17:36<@planetmaker>rivers do have dead arms etc
17:37<@Terkhen>good night
17:37<@planetmaker>g'night Terkhen
17:40<andythenorth>not the intended result: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4346/herp.png
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17:43<@planetmaker>lool :-)
17:43<@planetmaker>I call that world "water garden"
17:43<V453000>:DDD
17:43<V453000>nice enough
17:43<@planetmaker>or "noah's ark"
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17:49<@planetmaker>good night
17:56*andythenorth accidentally made lakes :o
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>when i tried to do rivers, i got stuck on the terraforming
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>rivers on arbitrary slopes would be better
18:01<Supercheese>"just" need some graphics
18:01<andythenorth>I was trying to find a wide to widen the CircularTileSearch after the river was n tiles long
18:01<andythenorth>but I can't seem to count reliably
18:01<andythenorth>I thought I could just increment a counter on the path node loop
18:04<andythenorth>bed time :)
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18:13<+michi_cc>not-anymore-present-andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2243/
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, he does that a lot :)
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19:51<dough>hi!
19:52<dough>anybody around right now?
19:54<Supercheese>for the moment
19:55<dough>heya.. i'm a little confused about the multitude of newgrfs available
19:55<Supercheese>There are indeed a lot
19:55<dough>is there sort of a default "best so far" set of industry vectors and vehicles
19:55<dough>i've been looking at ECS
19:56<dough>it would be nice to have a consistent package
19:57<Supercheese>There are two main industry sets, ECS and FIRS, with a third also popular (but less so): Pikka's Basic Industries
19:58<Supercheese>Most new vehicle sets will support the various new cargos introduced by all those sets
19:58<dough>okay..
19:58<dough>i just noticed a thread post about a new FIRS release
19:59<dough>very recent
19:59<Supercheese>FIRS is great
19:59<dough>april
19:59<dough>why don't these things show up in the "fruit shop"
19:59<Supercheese>FIRS? It's there
19:59<+glx>ECS is too complex
19:59<Supercheese>^ pretty much yeah
20:00<dough>it doesn't appear in my online content list.. hmm
20:00<Supercheese>dough: make sure you're using the most recent version of OTTD
20:00<Supercheese>a most recent*
20:01<Supercheese>well, ok, "most recent" is a terrible descriptor
20:01<dough>i literally just installed it from scratch
20:01<dough>1.3.0
20:01<Supercheese>1.3.0 is good, nightly probably better
20:02<Supercheese>It shows up for me as "FIRS Industry Replacement Set"
20:02<Supercheese>right below "Finnish Town Names"
20:02<Supercheese>you can always type "FIRS" into the "Tag/name filter" box
20:05<dough>yep, no dice
20:05<dough>i've got about a dozen items in the newgrf category
20:06<dough>maybe a configuration issue?
20:07<Supercheese>You're using the "Check Online Content", yes?
20:07<dough>maybe it's because i'm doing it from the wrong place
20:07<dough>oh yes that's my problem
20:08<dough>now i'm cooking
20:09<dough>yeah i was doing it from within "play scenario"
20:10<dough>i'm gathering that it's better to just play a heightmap or a random map with FIRS
20:11<+glx>scenario usually have fixed newgrf
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---Logclosed Tue Apr 30 00:00:42 2013