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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-04-30

---Logopened Tue Apr 30 00:00:42 2013
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03:21<@Rubidium>bugger... too bad Supercheese isn't online. Wanted to ask what he thought is the most recent version
03:29<@planetmaker>:-) write him a forum message
03:30<__ln___>congratulations netherlands for your new king
03:35<V453000>some dutchy got extraordinarily high so they declared him a king?
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04:25<MNIM>__ln___: king ale got promoted to king beer :P
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04:31<@Alberth>hi hi
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04:44<@Rubidium>hi Alberth
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04:56<@Rubidium>__ln___: you know that when you said that he wasn't king yet?
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04:57<__ln___>i assumed he might not quite yet be
05:10<MNIM>he still isn't
05:11<MNIM>the queen stepped aside barely an hour ago, he will be crowned in three hours from now
05:12<__ln___>so there's nobody in control right now?
05:13<__ln___>anarchy
05:15<@Rubidium>MNIM: the abdication was the moment WA became king; the crowning is just for "show"
05:17<MNIM>hmmm, then I understood the procedure wrong, but it is my understanding that he isn't king until he signs that document.
05:17<@Rubidium>if that document is the abdication document, then yes. Otherwise nope
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>what are the chances of someone else stepping up claiming the throne for himself? :p
05:20<MNIM>I suppose nill.
05:20<MNIM>being the king isn't all it's hyped up nowadays.
05:20<MNIM>can't even properly execute people who've slighted you now.
05:24<__ln___>will this affect on euro coins immediately?
05:26<MNIM>the new coins probably already are waiting to be shipped.
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05:37<Eddi|zuHause>new 5€ bills are about to be released
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>they won't have any king or queen on them, thoug :p
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06:34<frosch123>hmm...
06:35<frosch123>what is our interpretation of the vehicle sound effect callback?
06:35<frosch123>ttdp only calls it for the front engine
06:35<frosch123>ottd calls it for more vehicles, but using the wrong variables
06:36<frosch123>visual effect otoh is done for all vehicles, including wagons and articulated parts
06:37<frosch123>hmm, there is a callback flag to activate it
06:37<frosch123>so, i guess i just make it called for all things like vis effect
06:37<frosch123>maybe that makes everyone happy
06:37<frosch123>@seen pikka
06:37<@DorpsGek>frosch123: pikka was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 5 days, 1 hour, 54 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Pikka> I do not want to watch a half-hour video for the one little piece of information I need and which probably isn't in there anyway
06:41<frosch123>hmm, should the sound effects be synchronised between the vehicles of the same consist though
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that something the newgrf could do?
06:43<frosch123>no, the callback is called every 16 vehicle ticks, resp. every motion count
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>"synchronised" sound seems like something that would just make things louder
06:44<frosch123>i can now either always use that stuff from the front, or do it per vehicle
06:44<frosch123>vis effect does it per consist
06:44<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that's the other question :) maybe only doing it for the front vehicle is not that bad :p
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>and vehicle motion is not already synchronised between vehicles of the same consist?
06:44<frosch123>but if you then have a cab car, and the engine in the back, you will have no sound
06:45<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: specs say it is only valid for the front
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>only for front makes it evil if you "cheat" around newgrf restrictions with the invisible engine
06:47<frosch123>omg...
06:47<frosch123>sometimes it is cute how some code just copied ttdp behaviour, while it makes no sense at all :p
06:48<frosch123>ttdp calls the sound effects for vehicle subtype 0, which means "front engine" for trains
06:49<frosch123>ottd translates that check correctly to "only helicopters" for aircraft :p
06:50<@planetmaker>lol
06:50<@planetmaker>and hello :-)
06:52<@Alberth>o/
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>"Samoa Air now charges ticket prices by weight, because 3/4 of the population are overweight"
06:56<@planetmaker>he :-)
06:56<@planetmaker>I wonder how that goes with non discriminatory regulations :-)
06:57<frosch123>i don't think weight is mentioned in the list of things to not disciminate on
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>depends on whether you classify overweeight/underweight as an illness
06:57<@planetmaker>which you well could do
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>or a disability
06:57<__ln___>non-discriminating people is not a global phenomenon.
06:58<@planetmaker>__ln___, airlines usually want to sell tickets... also for flights the other way... thus I'd assume also in EU and Northern America
06:58<__ln___>in most of the world people are being discriminated for various reasons, and it's considered acceptable.
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>but aren't women usually smaller and thus lighter than men?
06:59<frosch123>planetmaker: ah, i guess you get in trouble with charging pregnant women
06:59<@planetmaker>he :-)
06:59<V453000>:D
07:00<oskari892>frosch123: ^ That sfx-behaviour leads to not-so nice side effects
07:00<frosch123>oskari892: it is certainly wrong currently
07:00<frosch123>the question is just, what is correct :p
07:00<V453000>well they could always make a ticket purely based on your total weight transported I guess
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i guess sound effect callback needs some wider discussion audience
07:01<V453000>that wouldnt be discriminating
07:01<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: usually the input here is more useful
07:01<frosch123>but pikka is missing
07:01<frosch123>which is one of the few who actually uses sound effects
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>did anybody other than pikka ever do sounds?
07:02<@planetmaker>yes
07:02<oskari892>Finnish Train set
07:02<oskari892>NARS
07:02<oskari892>Etc
07:02<@planetmaker>NARS = pikka ;-)
07:02<oskari892>:P
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>i wanted to do squeaking brakes, but didn't find the proper variables for that :/
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>like, for the last second before stopping at a station
07:03<oskari892>That could be "the idle" sound too
07:03<V453000>:D
07:03<oskari892>(stopping at station)
07:03<oskari892>+before
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>no, idle = stopped at station
07:04<oskari892>:P
07:04<frosch123>"idle = speed 0" in ottd
07:04<oskari892>Yes
07:04<frosch123>not in ttdp btw :p
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>but i meant "speed slightly above 0, but decreasing towards 0"
07:04<frosch123>yeah, the train-stopping thing
07:04<oskari892>Could be nice
07:05<frosch123>the newgrf could actually check for idle-sound effect and speed > 0 to play the brakes then :p
07:05<oskari892>The red block signal doesn't count on speed = 0, which should be corrected
07:06<oskari892>Bad bad behaviour
07:06<frosch123>oskari892: don't mix up things
07:06<oskari892>Yes, but initially that was the ticket
07:06<frosch123>you are jumping from observations in huge steps to wrong conclusions
07:06<oskari892>On flyspray
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07:07<frosch123>the only issue of thaf flyspray is the behaviour of non-front vehicles
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07:08<frosch123>that fs is actually a really bad report (sorry :p)
07:08<oskari892>I know :P
07:09<frosch123>it makes huge assumptions, does not supply any testcase, and it is up to me to guess what was really done :p
07:09<oskari892>Let's make a testcase
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07:21<@planetmaker>close as "unreproducable", frosch123 ;-)
07:21<@planetmaker>teaches people to make proper reports ;-)
07:21<frosch123>planetmaker: it is even a feature request :p
07:22<@planetmaker>!!
07:22<@planetmaker>"won't implement" then :D
07:22<oskari892>:P
07:22<oskari892>I just asked, could somebody do a switch for that :P
07:22<frosch123>likely some troll told oskari892 that newgrf specs may no be questioned and that the behaviour is correct or something :p
07:22<@planetmaker>granted, I read it and was not more knowledgable about what it was than after reading the title of it
07:23<oskari892>Should be more "concrete" in a few moments
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07:31<oskari892>Now
07:32<oskari892>there's a savegame :P
07:32<oskari892>With explanation of situation, hopefully someone understands... Should i make pictures with text too :P
07:34<@planetmaker>depending on the savegame, the train number might help. If it's just a test savegame it likely is obvious
07:34<oskari892>I'll edit description
07:35<@planetmaker>train numbers are unique in a savegame, thus the best way to point to a train unambiguously
07:37<oskari892>Done that
07:37<@planetmaker>thx :-)
07:40<@planetmaker>thanks Eddi|zuHause for the clarification in the spanish thread. That hit the nail spot-on
07:47<oskari892>And it's also a bug, that when train crashes, it is left playing sound effect 7 :P
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>you should put that in a separate report :)
07:47<oskari892>I'll do that
07:48<oskari892>Need a savegame for that?
07:48<oskari892>:D
07:49<@planetmaker>possibly... or link to the one you just attached
07:49<@planetmaker>it's always nice to have it ready to test / verify
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07:58<oskari892>Ticketed
07:59<oskari892>planetmaker: could you reproduce that "feature" on my previous flyspay? :P
08:00<@planetmaker>not yet. But the reason is that I don't want to launch OpenTTD on my work computer ;-)
08:00<@planetmaker>could leave a bad impression, if people notice ;-)
08:02<oskari892>:P
08:03<frosch123>so, you still have a good rating?
08:03<@planetmaker>I hope so :D
08:04<frosch123>my company regulary googles for the names of certain functions of the source code and other keywords
08:05<frosch123>recently they triggered on the homepage of a local sports club...
08:05<@planetmaker>uh? How that?
08:05<frosch123>some douche accidentially copy/pasted a code snippet while editing the homepage :p
08:05<@planetmaker>omg!
08:05<frosch123>it was in some comment section or something like that
08:05<frosch123>completely weird :p
08:06<@planetmaker>that's how industrial espionage happens ;-)
08:06<@planetmaker>but googling for source code... not something anyone here would do
08:07<@planetmaker>Our "IT specialist" here didn't even really know what version control software is...
08:07<@planetmaker>not did the concept make sense to him when I talked to him a few days ago
08:07<frosch123>it started some months ago, when someone accidentially pasted a function name into the google searchbar, instead of the doxygen search bar :p
08:07<frosch123>and found something :p
08:07<@planetmaker>ui
08:08<@planetmaker>he uses of course the copy&rename "versioning"... which is "just as good". right
08:08<Tulitomaatti>ouch
08:09<@planetmaker>I'd not be surprised honestly, if I was the only person in this institute who uses version control ;-)
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'd not be either :p
08:10<@planetmaker>none has an IT background, but at least the guys who do simulations *should* like to use it... oh well.
08:11<@planetmaker>he was a bit surprised when I answered to his question "do you use it for all the programming work" like "yes, for several years"
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>just make a presentation to the coworkers how beautiful version control is
08:11<@planetmaker>I actually might
08:12<@planetmaker>I might setup a server so that people don't need to re-invent the wheel over and over for common stuff many of us use
08:13<oskari892>How strange
08:13<@planetmaker>sience. university. it's not about productivity. or uniformly managed systems ;-9
08:13<oskari892>If train is running a circle and it hits it's tail, it wont' crash
08:13<oskari892>*won't
08:13<@planetmaker>yep. known. won't fix, oskari892
08:14<oskari892>Ok :P
08:14<@planetmaker>maybe you find an issue in the bug tracker closed with that comment. Not 100% positive, though
08:14<oskari892>Seems that there are at least 10 turns of one train in 3x3 circle :)
08:15<oskari892>(64 length)
08:15<frosch123>planetmaker: oskari892: it's in "known_bugs"
08:15<oskari892>Ok
08:15<frosch123>under the headline "we will flame you when you report these again" :p
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08:17<@planetmaker>good, so I remembered correctly :-)
08:17*planetmaker ignites the 'idle' flame of the big flame thrower. Just for fun :D
08:18<@Alberth>planetmaker: scientist and computer programming is a known 'problem' :) http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-nl/2013-April/002552.html
08:19<@planetmaker>:-)
08:19<@Alberth>I was somewhat surprised of this effort
08:20<@planetmaker>sadly, it makes total sense, though
08:21<@Rubidium>planetmaker: the best way to introduce versioning is having a project where many are writing on the same large document. Also 'force' them to you LaTeX. The first weeks they'll despice you, after that they're more or less converted ;)
08:22<@planetmaker>yes, that makes it easy
08:22<@planetmaker>But there's not a single big project where a lot of people programme on. Afaik. Not exactly sure about the simulants
08:23<@Rubidium>too bad
08:23<@planetmaker>but there are a few cases which I use myself where it makes sense nevertheless which are written and used by a few from my working group
08:37<oskari892>Woot
08:38<oskari892>There is something with dev.openttdcoop.org
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%2023.%20Maer%201942.png <-- so i'm totally lost on this, there doesn't seem to be any code related to fixing flags anywhere in my old patch, so why doesn't it convert the "in tunnel" flag correctly?
08:38<oskari892>"Cannot allocate memory - 'hg' '-R' '/home/hg/finnishtrainset' '--encoding' 'utf-8' '--config' 'extensions.redminehelper=/home/dev/redmine.stable/lib/redmine/scm/adapters/mercurial/redminehelper.py' '--config' 'diff.git=false' 'rhmanifest' '-r' '9ae3d938ecfc' 'lang'"
08:38<@planetmaker>uh. oh.
08:39<oskari892>Server broken? :P
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>game crashes as soon as i unpause, because of "can't find other bridge end"
08:42<@planetmaker>not broken. But out of memory
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08:46<@planetmaker>I wonder what I break, if I simply reboot
08:46<frosch123>usually everything :)
08:47<frosch123>all the stuff which the admin adjusted since the last reboot, and forgot to also adjust in the boot scripts
08:47<frosch123>but only did them once
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably all Ammler's fault :)
08:48<@planetmaker>as usual ;-)
08:48<@planetmaker>Ammler, is quite good in keeping /etc as a hg repo, thus changes can be tracked :D
08:49<@planetmaker>but... too little memory to execute 'hg st'
08:50<frosch123>that's not what i meant :)
08:50<frosch123>but stuff wrt. restarting services
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>just kill the process with the highest memory usage :)
08:51<frosch123>like network mounts vanishing after reboot, and suggesting the admin after then n-th power failure to also put them into /etc/fstab, instead of just running mount :s
08:51<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the vm? :p
08:52<@planetmaker>yes... such *might* happen. It shouldn't. but might. And gunicorn uses ... 1.5G memory
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>i mean "top" -> "M" and then the one(s) on the top of the list :)
08:52<@planetmaker>yes. top 6 contains 5 gunicorn threads
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>what's that do?
08:53<frosch123>planetmaker: that's the thing which wrote the 60GiB error log file?
08:53<@planetmaker>that's basically the http handler for redmine afaik, Eddi|zuHause
08:53<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: coop had the problem that the disk quote were exceeded every few weeks
08:53<frosch123>until ammler found the error log file of gunicorn :)
08:54<Tvel>that's one big log
08:55<@planetmaker>yes... but disk space is currently not the issue. until we expand zbase a lot... 60G to go
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>whenever something gets out-of-hand-ish-ly full over here, i do a "du --max-depth 1" recursively until i find something unusually large
08:55<@planetmaker>so do I :-)
08:56<@planetmaker>I might go for a larger max-depth initially though. I can then grep for size :D
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>things like "i drag&drop-ed 4 .mpg files from an smb:// to kaffeine, and it made local copies in /tmp, 2GiB each"
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i should just symlink /tmp onto /dev/shm
08:58<frosch123>anyone ever heard about a "D"-battery? or is it a typo for an "A" ?
08:58<@planetmaker>D are the BIG batteries
08:58<@planetmaker>like 5cm * 2cm diameter or so
08:58<frosch123>mono-cells?
08:58<@planetmaker>yes
08:58<frosch123>aren't they "A"?
08:59<@planetmaker>cylinder like AA. Just BIGGER
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>R20?
08:59<frosch123>ah, i see
08:59<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_battery
09:00<frosch123>i thought it just gets less A if it gets bigger
09:00<Tvel>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes
09:00<@planetmaker>D is significantly less A than AA ;-)
09:00<frosch123>but AA is the biggest of those, then come C = A^1, and D = A^0 :p
09:00<@planetmaker>seems like, yes. Funky naming
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>i dunno, i always used the Rxx names
09:01<@planetmaker>I wouldn't know RXX names
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>R3, R6, R14, R20
09:02<@planetmaker>r = radius?
09:02<@planetmaker>hm, no.
09:03<@planetmaker>Your desgination defines also exactly the type. While the A or D-desgination only the size
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>batteries were always sold under these names, until "the west" came along and screwed everything up with names like "mignon" and "baby"
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>which nobody understood
09:11<@planetmaker>I never understood battery sizes. Neither then nor now
09:11<@planetmaker>But then... I'm a "grown captialist" :D
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>although, they didn't have R3 back then, R6 was the smallest
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>usually you would get R6, R14, R20 and the 4,5V "flat" batteries
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>but i haven't seen a device using the latter for ages
09:13<frosch123>usually there are C, AA, AAA, 9V and crappy non-standard batteries :p
09:14<frosch123>if something is listed as "6xD", in know it's a monster i do not want :p
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>every camera and mobile phone has its own proprietary battery sizes, it seems
09:15<Tvel>well the 4,5V flats are actually 3 AA inside
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>Tvel: no, they are slightly narrower
09:15<@planetmaker>and 10 9V blocks in a row will get *pretty* hot, if one of them is faulty internally
09:16<@planetmaker>I was scared... they took on already cylindrical size :D
09:16<Tvel>hm, i remeber opening one once
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>Tvel: yes, there are 3 cells inside, but they are smaller than AA
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>or bigger
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really know which one AA is
09:17<@planetmaker>the "normal" one
09:17<Tvel>maybe is AAA then
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>ah R6 yes, then i mean bigger
09:17<frosch123>yeah, the size of a 4.5 flat better fits 3xAAA
09:17<frosch123>hmm, no AA
09:17<frosch123>gah :p
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>whatever...
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09:25<Eddi|zuHause>how do i get a vehicle from the pool in gdb?
09:26<frosch123>"Die Lautsprecher sind regenwasserdicht und somit für Verwendung im Badezimmer geeignet." <- yeah, exactly...
09:26<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: _vehicle_pool.Get(123)
09:26<frosch123>or something like that
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09:26<Eddi|zuHause>no, wait... i'm in the version before vehicle pools...
09:27<frosch123>i doubt that :p
09:27<frosch123>either you mean engine pool, or some earlier version of vehicle pools :p
09:27<frosch123>but there has always been a vehicle pool
09:27<@planetmaker>oskari892, anyway, try again to push to your repo
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>anyway,
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>p _vehicle_pool No symbol "_vehicle_pool" in current context.
09:28<frosch123>anyway, look at the global variables declared at the top of vehicle.cpp
09:28<@Rubidium>_Vehicle_pool?
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>DEFINE_OLD_POOL_GENERIC(Vehicle, Vehicle)
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09:32<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: have you tried _Vehicle_pool? The define really implies it ought to be that
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it works-ish
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>only i get Assertion `index < this->GetSize()' failed. when i try the same index as in the newer version :/
09:35<frosch123>somewhen in the past the ids were obiwan
09:35<frosch123>with 0 being the invalid id, while it is -1 today
09:35<frosch123>so somewhen all ids were shifted by one
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>but if it says total_items = 1536, how can Get(54) fail this way?
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09:38<@planetmaker>non-consecutive numbering?
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>p _Vehicle_pool.GetSize() One of the arguments you tried to pass to GetSize could not be converted to what the function wants.
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>that one i don't get at all
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09:51<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue how this works :(
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10:09<Eddi|zuHause>hm, suddenly it works :/
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>@base 10 2 269
10:19<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 100001101
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>@base 10 2 13
10:19<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1101
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10:28<Eddi|zuHause>hm, that can't be the crucial difference :/
10:32<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Don't know which patches you old game had, but strange vehicle positions might be because of some bad interaction with r23290.
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10:33<Eddi|zuHause>vehstatus = 0 '\000' vs. vehstatus = 9 '\t',
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: as far as i can tell, paxdest v3, yapp v6 and some daylength thingie
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>so nothing which should interact with that in a weird way
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>i don't get this at all... the only place in afterload which changes vehiclestatus is savegame version 152
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>but this shouldn't do anything because the train is fully inside the tunnel
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>not on the tunnel tile
11:04<+michi_cc>A train inside a tunnel *is* on the tunnel tile, just with a different status and trackbit.
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>but that version checks whether the virtual position and the tile match
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>which it shouldn't for this train
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>and now Get(x) doesn't work anymore :/
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>gotcha!
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>was something i did wrong with my savegame conversion changes
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>i guess it overwrote unrelated parts then
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12:00<peter1139># uptime 17:00:10 up 2358 days, 6:09, 2 users, load average: 0.28, 0.25, 0.45
12:00<peter1139>oops :S
12:00<@planetmaker>ui ui
12:00<sla_ro|vista>2k days? oO
12:00<norbert79_android>Wow
12:00<@planetmaker> 6:00pm up 1049 days 4:45, 38 users, load average: 1,08, 1,02, 1,01
12:01<@planetmaker>not even half as long :-P
12:01<sla_ro|vista>o:
12:01<norbert79_android>Guess updating doesnt happen often :-)
12:02<@planetmaker>that machine basically has been replaced by the machine I sit on now ;-)
12:02<@planetmaker>I keep it still running to make sure I get stuff I might have forgotten to copy (but I don't want to copy all the old crap :D )
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>whenever you decide to turn off and delete all the old stuff, the next day you want something off it :p
12:03<norbert79_android>Does it run BSD or Solaris?
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12:03<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yes. That's what I fear :D
12:04<@planetmaker>it runs linux
12:04<norbert79_android>Heh... Custom kernel I guesd
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>why?
12:06<norbert79_android>Well, need to get off from the bus... Later
12:06<peter1139>yes, well, it could do with an update...
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12:06<peter1139>hence the "oops"
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>nobody abuses 5 year old security holes anymore :p
12:07<@planetmaker>yeah. They're exploited long ago. And fixed by the exploit(er) :-P
12:07<peter1139>heh
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>that is standard procedure, if you exploit a security hole, you fix it, so nobody else will abuse it
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12:37<@Rubidium>why would you patch it? If it gets infected, you just toss the computer and buy a new one
12:38-!-andythenorth [~andytheno@2002:4d66:7022:0:c9ae:f17a:e22c:436d] has joined #openttd
12:38<andythenorth>Bon midi
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12:40<Eddi|zuHause>in which timezone?
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12:40<Eddi|zuHause>[30.04.2013 00:13] <michi_cc> not-anymore-present-andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2243/
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12:42<andythenorth>\o/ :)
12:43<andythenorth>Can't compile that on a tablet :p
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12:45*andythenorth might try hacking at diagonal river tiles for laughs
12:45<andythenorth>Just needs to set some bits appropriately right?
12:45<andythenorth>How hard can it be? :p
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>ask peter1139?
12:46<andythenorth>Probably have to think about valid slopes and crap
12:46<andythenorth>Bibb
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>well all slopes should be valid
12:50<andythenorth>Useful
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12:51<@Alberth>moin
12:53<andythenorth>o/
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13:16<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25213 /trunk (11 files in 5 dirs) (2013-04-30 17:16:32 UTC)
13:16<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5537]: clarify on which tiles IsDesertTile and IsSnowTile work, i.e. the ones without infrastructure or buildings
13:16<@DorpsGek>-Feature: introduce GetTerrainType which allows one to get that information for tiles with buildings and infrastructure as well
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13:33<oskari892>Eddi|zuhause: Can you reproduce that bug earlier on Flyspray? http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5534
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>why would i?
13:34<oskari892>"Waiting on reporter" :P
13:34<@Alberth>that's you :)
13:35<oskari892>:P
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you meant to talk to frosch123?
13:36<oskari892>Yes :P
13:36<frosch123>i read the source
13:37<frosch123>next task is to write a forum post
13:37<frosch123>just because it's weird to pm pikka
13:37<oskari892>Already done that
13:37<oskari892>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=65562
13:38<oskari892>Could be moved to problems section too...
13:38<frosch123>that's not the type of forum post i mean :)
13:39<frosch123>i mean one which summarised the current sound effects, and for which vehicles they are called in ottd and ttdp currently, and for which they should be called instead
13:39<frosch123>and compares the behaviour if visual effects
13:39<oskari892>Yes, could be nice
13:39<frosch123>but on the way to there i might just as well unify the behaviour of tick_counter between trains and rvs first :p
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13:46<fanzeyi>Hi, I noticed that my airplanes was smoking when flying sometimes, and speed of the airplane slows down. How to reduce it? Build a transfer station between origin and terminal?
13:46<fanzeyi>Screenshot: http://d.pr/i/q1LG :)
13:46<frosch123>http://wiki.openttd.org/Servicing
13:47<fanzeyi>frosch123: thanks
13:48<@Alberth>it means the aircraft is broken down
13:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25214 /trunk/src/lang (51 files in 2 dirs) (2013-04-30 17:49:25 UTC)
13:49<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:50<frosch123>oh, rb pressed some buttons
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13:53<@Alberth>:)
13:55<dough>hi folks
13:55<dough>i'm getting into scenario editing - are there script capabilities here?
13:56<dough>for instance i'd like to parse geodata on real world towns into a series of calls to CmdCreateTown
13:56<dough>er, CmdFoundTown
13:56<oskari892>AFAIK, not yet
13:56<oskari892>Lately i was researching the same thing
13:57<dough>no kidding
13:57<frosch123>you have to patch the source :)
13:57<dough>so the C++ api isn't automatically exposed through some macro magic to some kind of in-game scripting
13:58<frosch123>partly
13:58<dough>i mean i suppose i could expose that myself
13:58<frosch123>but you will have a hard time to feed it with your geo data
13:58<dough>i'd have to whip up a developemnt environment i guess
13:58<frosch123>you would have to include the geo data into your script source or something
13:58<frosch123>because the script cannot touch the filesytem or similar
13:59<@Alberth>it may be easier to implement the new scenario format and generate a file for that :p
13:59<dough>whoa
13:59<frosch123>also you would have to do it in a running game, and later convert the savegame into a sceranio
13:59<dough>i was thinking of something much simpler
13:59<dough>expose a create_town(x, y, population) in squirrel (?)
13:59<dough>or as a console command
13:59<@Rubidium>there's no script running in the scenario editor
13:59<oskari892>http://wiki.openttd.org/Terkhen/Scenario_format
13:59<dough>but you can run console commands
13:59<@Rubidium>they are only running during the game
14:00<oskari892>Could solve when implemented
14:00<@Rubidium>and no useful APIs for gameplay are in the console commands
14:03<dough>this text-based format is just being speced out, right
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14:18<Eddi|zuHause>i have not seen an implementation of this yet
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15:09<+michi_cc>andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2243/
15:09<+michi_cc>Oh, Eddi already posted that.
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15:30<andythenorth>michi_cc: is your river patch from a git branch? I can't get hg to apply it
15:31<andythenorth>ach that makes no sense
15:31<andythenorth>I'll start again
15:31<@Alberth>patch -p1 < the_patch.patch
15:32<andythenorth>yeah
15:32<andythenorth>that's what I thought :P
15:32<andythenorth>patch unexpectedly ends in middle of line
15:32<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/2243/
15:34<+michi_cc>I hacked that in a non-clean checkout, so I wouldn't expect the line numbers in the diff chunk header to be correct, but the context itself should match.
15:34<+michi_cc>Just apply it by hand if it doesn't work otherwise. Simple enough in this case.
15:35<andythenorth>ok ta
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like you need to add a new line at end of file
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the paste removed that or it wasn't copied properly
15:37<andythenorth>tried it :)
15:37<andythenorth>didn't solve it
15:42<andythenorth>src/landscape.cpp: In function ‘bool RiverMakeWider(TileIndex, void*)’: src/landscape.cpp:1050: error: cast from ‘void*’ to ‘TileIndex’ loses precision
15:42<andythenorth>could be EAndythenorth, but I double checked my application of the diff
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15:43<frosch123>insert a (size_t) inbetween
15:43<+michi_cc>No, just a different compiler :)
15:43<frosch123>or pass the TileIndex as pointer instead of by-value
15:44<+michi_cc>CircularTileSearch modifies the first tile parameter I think so that wouldn't be a good idea.
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>that looks extremely dirty :p
15:45<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Change it to GetTileSlope((TileIndex)(size_t)data) and it should work.
15:46<andythenorth> if (IsValidTile(tile) && !IsWaterTile(tile) && GetTileSlope(tile) == GetTileSlope((TileIndex)(size_t)data)) {
15:46<andythenorth>?
15:46<+michi_cc>And if you get another error further down, change that to (void *)(size_t)tile
15:46<+michi_cc>Yes
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>i should just stop watching Revolution, but somehow i can't :/
15:46<andythenorth>still fails on l1050
15:46<andythenorth>same error as above :)
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>and if you (TileIndex)data&0xFFFFFFFF?
15:48<andythenorth>same error
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>get a better compiler
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>there's no reason why that should be an error instead of a warning
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15:51<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Try http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/wide_rivers.diff
15:52<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: every magic with pointers should be an error
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>possibly :p
15:53<frosch123>if you use operator & with a pointer, it should call the police or something
15:53<frosch123>hmm, ok, that was ambiguous
15:53<frosch123>i mean binary & :)
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15:53<andythenorth>compiles
15:53<andythenorth>rivers aren't wider afaict :)
15:53<andythenorth>but it's progress
15:54<andythenorth>do I need to build gcc btw?
15:54<andythenorth>I can do that if it's nececssary
15:54<+michi_cc>It depends on the river length, you can vary it by making the 15 smaller.
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15:55<andythenorth>ok neat
15:55<andythenorth>that works
15:55<andythenorth>doesn't seem to handle the coast tile case
15:55<andythenorth>so narrow rapids on the coast tile
15:55<andythenorth>I figured out that one last night, I can look at my diff
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>implement a MakeDelta() :p
15:56<andythenorth>interesting case when a river joins another river
15:56<andythenorth>the second river gets wider before the junction
15:57<andythenorth>or maybe that's something else causing that
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15:59<+michi_cc>Yeah, that's because the game takes the first river as the end tile which means my length calculation doesn't match.
15:59<andythenorth>he
15:59<andythenorth>I wonder about doing a circular search out from the coast tile
16:01<@Rubidium>and use the flight-of-bird distance?
16:02<andythenorth>dunno :)
16:02<@Rubidium>then you might end up with a wide river at the begin, small in the middle and wide at the end (if it flows away from the coast for the first bit)
16:02<andythenorth>well it might be funky :)
16:02<+michi_cc>andythenorth: My rapids to get wide: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/river.png
16:03<andythenorth>interesting
16:03<+michi_cc>Admittedly it's often no the case because the landscape generator rarely generates a sufficient straight coast.
16:03<@Rubidium>alternatively you pathfind from the 'junction' to the ocean through the river and add that length
16:04<FLHerne>So all that water is pouring into that tiny little pond? :P
16:05<FLHerne>Looks even sillier than with the current rivers
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>it might be turning into an underground river
16:05<FLHerne>Cool, though
16:06<FLHerne>While you're at it, could you make it generate rivers 1 level below the surrounding terrain? :D
16:06<+michi_cc>Rubidium: That wouldn't really work either. The diff is using the absolute and not the relative length to widen the river. I didn't want to make every river get wide no matter how short.
16:06<+michi_cc>You'd have to retroactively widen the existing river.
16:07-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd
16:09<+michi_cc>Oh, and I have a bug report about CircularTileSearch() (the overload without uint w, uint h). It crashes with size == 1.
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16:12<Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> why would you patch it? If it gets infected, you just toss the computer and buy a new one <-- http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/verschwendung-in-mv-neue-computer-statt-virenreinigung-a-897322.html :p
16:12<LordAro>michi_cc: you should report the bug to a dev.. oh wait.. :P
16:16<Supercheese>Sheesh, it's snowing
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>WINTER IS COMING!
16:17<LordAro>but it's (nearly) May...
16:17<LordAro>lol
16:18<Supercheese>We have had snow in May before
16:18<LordAro>wait, you're in the US, right?
16:18<Supercheese>Yep, Idaho
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>you're probably one of the most southern persons in this channel :p
16:19<Supercheese>We're only at elevation 2,579 ft (786 m)
16:19-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-70-162.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
16:20<Supercheese>not too far from Canada though, just ≈3-4 hours drive time
16:21-!-Prof_Frink [~proffrink@90.193.88.212] has joined #openttd
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>even the northern border of the US is more southern than most of europe
16:21<Supercheese>Hm, I don't think I've ever checked
16:22<Supercheese>with the various map projections it is kinda hard to tell at first glance
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was 49°N
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>i'm at around 51°N
16:23<Supercheese>Yeah, looks like you've got me beat
16:23<Supercheese>46° N, rounded down I suppose
16:24*Rubidium is at 52N (rounded down as well)
16:25*LordAro is also at 52N
16:26<LordAro>if anyone cares
16:26<Supercheese>if it's snowing here, y'all must have blizzards :P
16:27<LordAro>nah, Gulf Stream stops all that
16:27<@Rubidium>which'd be midway between Calgary (51N) and Edmonton (53N)
16:27<LordAro>it's also rougly level with Siberia, right?
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes, europe is known for its blizzards in may :p
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16:29<@Rubidium>Alaska starts just below 55N, continental US ends just below 49N
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16:30<@Rubidium>which'd roughly mean Germany fits in between the north of continental US and south of Alaska
16:30<Supercheese>Interesting
16:31<@Rubidium>hmm, that reminds me about that reasoning why solar power in US is so crap; it simply has no sun, compared to e.g. Germany
16:31<frosch123>lol, just wanted to mention solar power :p
16:32<Supercheese>we get lots of wind though, the river gorge an hour's drive away is littered with wind turbines
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, in the fox news world, the USA has no sun :)
16:33<frosch123>how many MW is lots for you?
16:33<Supercheese>checking
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>there are about 100 wind turbines in sight radius here...
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>and we have next to no wind
16:35<frosch123>http://www.sma.de/unternehmen/pv-leistung-in-deutschland.html <- btw.: an awesome link everyone should know who talks about solar power
16:37<frosch123>mind that you can select the date at the bottom
16:37<Supercheese>Not used this before, but this seems to indicate the wind turbines: http://gis.bpa.gov/gis/wind/index.html?mapsvc=http://gis.bpa.gov/ArcGIS/rest/services/BPAPublic/WindMap/MapServer
16:38<Supercheese>http://transmission.bpa.gov/Business/Operations/Wind/baltwg.aspx
16:39<@Rubidium>http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/us_germany_spain/pvmap_usgermanyspain%20poster-01.jpg <- there it is ;)
16:41<Supercheese>If I'm reading that correctly, the river gorge has more wind capacity in MW than the entire US has in Solar?!
16:41<Supercheese>Columbia river*
16:41<Supercheese>Oh, in 2008 anyway
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>that isn't so surprising
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>solar power is very expensive to set up
16:43<andythenorth>michi_cc: I thought the crash for CircularTileSearch with size = 1 was my fault :P
16:43<andythenorth>had a lot of that yesterday :P
16:43<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the guy who installs it on your roof is already the most expensive part of it
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>that's the same thing everywhere :)
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>except in bangladesh or something :)
16:46<frosch123>well, it was different 10 years ago :)
16:46<@Rubidium>I think the main reason why it's not used in the US yet is the lack of energy taxes
16:46<andythenorth>michi_cc: so I checked IsInclinedSlope(slope)) to get coasts working
16:46<andythenorth>one fewer ) :P
16:46<andythenorth>but not sure how to add that to the current condition check
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, because energy in the US is so cheap, the regenerative energy is just not amortizing fast enough
16:47<andythenorth>I had this http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2244/
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>imagine getting heating oil for twice the price, and the solar heating system amortizes in 15 years instead of 30
16:52<@Rubidium>back when I was there I think a gallon of petrol (US) costed as much as a liter of petrol (NL)
16:52<Supercheese>seems about right
16:53<Supercheese>roughly $3.50 per gallon for gasoline here
16:53<Supercheese>rounded to nearest 10
16:53<Supercheese>.10*
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16:54<@Rubidium>Supercheese: right now?
16:54<Supercheese>http://gasbuddy.com/gb_index.aspx
16:54<Supercheese>"US Average $3.505"
16:54<Supercheese>so yeah
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>i think i saw yesterday 1,55€/l
16:54<Supercheese>it also has some historical data there
16:54<Supercheese>"One Year ago 3.807"
16:55<frosch123>http://benzinpreis.de/intgr/world-DE-EUR-LI.jpg
16:55<@Rubidium>hmm, what's the European equivalent of that?
16:55<frosch123>petrol and diesel
16:55<@Rubidium>euro95 or super?
16:55<frosch123>hmm, diesel is more expensive in us?
16:55<Supercheese>diesel has fluctuated a lot over the past years
16:56<Supercheese>sometimes significantly less, sometimes a lot more
16:56<@Rubidium>here a liter of Euro95 (cheapest of the two) has an advertised price of E1.78/L
16:56<frosch123>i think it is 95
16:57<@Rubidium>and 3.505 $/gallon is about E0.71/L
16:57<Supercheese>Way less, then
16:58<Supercheese>more than I thought
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>it depends a lot on the €-$ exchange rate
16:58<@Rubidium>http://www.mytravelcost.com/petrol-prices/
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>a few years ago when all of the US complained about 4$ per gallon, i calculated that it was around 8$/gal in germany
16:59<+michi_cc>frosch123: US taxation is based on energy content and diesel just has more.
17:00<@Rubidium>in Norway they must really tax the hell out of that stuff ;)
17:00<Supercheese>too bad we can't have cars that run on natural gas, it's piped into everyone's homes, you'd just need a compressor and you could fill up in your own garage
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>i think in germany a lot of tax is on diesel engines instead of diesel fuel
17:01<@Rubidium>they produce their own oil, so it could be pretty cheap (like 10% of the price)
17:01<frosch123>Supercheese: you can't?
17:01<Supercheese>frosch123: I've never found one on the market
17:01<frosch123>they are fairly common in public transport here
17:01<Supercheese>only large city buses
17:01<Supercheese>yeah
17:01<@Rubidium>what's the advantage of natural gas?
17:01<andythenorth>good night :)
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17:01<frosch123>it's cheaper :p
17:01<Supercheese>I'm not sure about cheaper w.r.t energy density, but it is cheaper
17:01<Supercheese>and piped to your house
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>less contamination with sulphur and stuff?
17:02<@Rubidium>(besides having to switch to something else for heating?)
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>more complete burning?
17:02<+glx>and forbidden in some car parks
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>we have a few "gas" stations in the city
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>and a friend of mine has a gas-powered car
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17:03<Eddi|zuHause>he works at a gas company, incidentally :)
17:03<Wolf01>night
17:03<@Rubidium>anyhow, isn't it just a variant of LPG?
17:04<frosch123>http://www.greengear.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Energieverbrauch-Kraftstoffe.jpg <- i guess that table should show it
17:04<Wolf01>oh wait
17:04<@Alberth>good night Wolf01
17:04<frosch123>i just have to figure out how to read it :p
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17:05<@Rubidium>http://xkcd.org/1162/ <- supplement to that table ;)
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i have no clue what that says :p
17:05<+glx>Rubidium: LPG comes from refined petrol
17:05<frosch123>WTT means well-to-tank, TTW means tank-to-wheel, wtw mean well-to-wheel
17:06<@Rubidium>bioethanol is stupid
17:06<frosch123>in eu, yes
17:07<@Rubidium>just use plants to feed people to run your car
17:07<frosch123>hmm, no, actually, in general, yes :)
17:07<@Rubidium>right... who had that bright idea?
17:07<+glx>and it's corrosive
17:07<Supercheese>original Ford autos ran on alcohol
17:07<@Rubidium>biogas, if captured right, might help in two ways ;)
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>Bioethanol in its current production-form is useless. you need a way to generate it from waste products
17:08<Wolf01>we should have stayed with horses
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17:08<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: wrt xkcd -> yes, where are those nuclear powered cars they promised us 60 years ago? :p
17:09<Supercheese>Model T could even run on ethanol, interesting
17:09<Wolf01>lol http://what-if.xkcd.com/43/ Could a high-speed train run through a vertical loop, like a rollercoaster, with the passengers staying comfortable?
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: during and after WWII, many german trucks were refitted to burn CO from a wood-burning-oven on the back, because fuel was so scarce
17:10<Supercheese>wood gas eh
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17:10<Supercheese>must've destroyed the poor forests
17:10<@Rubidium>at least burning methane is replacing a very potent greenhouse gas with two less potent ones
17:13<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: used in france too at the same time (same reasons ;) )
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17:14<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: i've not heard anything about mass-deforestation due to WWII
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>and certainly not in the same orders of magnitude deforestation in england happened in the "discovery" centuries
17:16<@Rubidium>anyhow, I wonder if hydrogen cells might be the future of travel; coupled with charging them in the more deserty areas of the world (although there then needs to be some source of water there)
17:17<Supercheese>Huh, the process is apparently much more efficient that I thought
17:17<Supercheese>autos that run on wood
17:17<Supercheese>go figure
17:17<@Rubidium>banana peels ;)
17:17<+glx>well on gaz generated from wood
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: there were a LOT fewer cars than nowadays :)
17:17<frosch123>Rubidium: do you want to use a pipeline? if you would use tankers, you could transport the water back on retour :p
17:17<Supercheese>ah, true
17:18<dough>apparently substantial parts of the north korean army truck fleet run on wood
17:18<dough>http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/2013/01/02/how-north-korea-fuels-its-military-trucks-with-trees/
17:19<@Rubidium>frosch123: not sure; tankers might have some use, although we are having an extensive gas network
17:19<frosch123>i am not sure whether you can transport hydrogen in gas form efficiently
17:20<FLHerne>Apparently both world wars were very bad for balsa trees in Peru :P
17:20<frosch123>i would expect it needs to be liquid
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>pure hydrogen can't be liquid
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>it goes from solid to gas at about 4K
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>maybe with insane amounts of pressure :)
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17:28<frosch123>oh damn, silly me, i should have known that :s
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17:59<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, http://www.hydropole.ch/content/hydrogen/imgabout/Phasediag.gif <-- there's liquid hydrogen... around the 4K
18:06<frosch123>night
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18:14<Eddi|zuHause>so high pressures wouldn't even help?
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18:16<@planetmaker>it would solidify it. Except in the small region around normal pressure and 4K... there we can have liquid H2
18:17<@planetmaker>according to that diagramme a google search gave me at least
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18:20<Supercheese>I guess all my alcohol trains and trucks won't be profitable by 2013: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-30/german-beer-sales-decline-to-lowest-in-20-years-on-cold-weather.html
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18:28<Eddi|zuHause>151 liters per capita, that would be almost one beer (0.5l) per day
18:29<Supercheese>Well German beer is certainly far superior to American beer
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>well you could just get german beer in america :p
18:29<Supercheese>I do
18:29<Supercheese>Beck's is the stuff
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>or czech beer
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>that means "real" budweiser, not the crappy stuff you call budweiser :p
18:30<Supercheese>aye
18:30<Supercheese>Belgium also puts out quality brews
18:31<Supercheese>and the Netherlands, of course
18:31<Supercheese>...we get Coors and Miller -_-
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really remember ever seeing dutch beer anywhere
18:31<Supercheese>Heineken is dutch innit?
18:31<Supercheese>(spelling?)
18:32<Supercheese>Amstel
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>possibly, but i haven't actually seen that anywhere either
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>beer sold around here is either from the region or czech
18:33<Supercheese>Huh, the Champions League spams its advertisements so much I'm tired of it ;)
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>advertising != selling
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18:34<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't watch football
18:34<Supercheese>:O
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>and who really can tell netherlands and belgium apart :p
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>except for which of them is blocking the autobahn with caravans :p
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19:28<Wolf01>'night (this time for real)
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20:35<Salamander>Hey
20:35<Salamander>Could someone please link me to the best place to learn optimal railroad layouts? Something that will explain when to lay single-direction tracks instead of having a train go this way and that on one track, explain best signaling techniques, etc
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23:52<Flygon>Salamander: May be best to try and get someone to help via Multiplayer
---Logclosed Wed May 01 00:00:43 2013