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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-05-04

---Logopened Sat May 04 00:00:49 2013
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04:29<andythenorth>o/
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04:34<andythenorth>so compiling openttd.grf still mystifies me :)
04:35<@Alberth>?
04:35<@Alberth>trunk grfcodec installed should work afaik
04:36<andythenorth>can't find any way to build it using the makefiles in my checkout
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04:36<andythenorth>neither the main makefile nor the one in objs/extra_grf/
04:37<andythenorth>the dep check finds no changes in my filesystem
04:37<andythenorth>although I have changed both png and nfo
04:37<andythenorth>deleting openttd.grf from bin/baseset just causes the game to start with broken graphics
04:38<andythenorth>interestingly, hg won't see my changes either, completely ignores the files
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04:39<andythenorth>actually hg does see the change
04:40<andythenorth>but makefile dep check doesn't
04:40<@Alberth>how did you run ./configure?
04:40<andythenorth>./configure
04:41<andythenorth>no flags
04:42<@Alberth>I use ./configure --enable-debug (or actually ./configure --enable-debug=3 but level 3 is not needed)
04:45<@Alberth>ha, objs/extra_grf has a Makefile for openttd.grf
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04:48<@Alberth>grfcodec is in the PATH?
04:51<@Alberth>Makefile.grf.in seems to be the master version of the that makefile
04:56<@Alberth>config.lib has a generate_grf function that creates the Makefile in objects
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05:00<andythenorth>grfcodec is in PATH
05:00<andythenorth>or at least, I can use grfcodec from my checkout dir
05:01<andythenorth>I haven't set a path in the makefile for it
05:02<@Alberth>you ran ./configure after it was in the path?
05:02<@Alberth>perhaps it does version checks
05:03<andythenorth>k I'll check in a bit
05:03<andythenorth>chores time :)
05:05<@Alberth>it does, it seems line 941 of config.lib is the call, line 3157 is the function
05:09<@Alberth>config.log contains all the details of the configure process, look for grfcodec there
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05:10<@Alberth>my version says 958
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05:18<@Alberth>mornink Zuu
05:18<Zuu>Hello Alberth
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06:07<@Alberth>o/
06:08<LordAro>quak
06:09<frosch123>moin :)
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06:14<V453000>moo
06:14<V453000>uni.
06:14*LordAro has to finalize uni choices within the next couple of days
06:15<@Alberth>green unicorns are very popular
06:16<juzza1>is there a way to create a train which restrics the ratio of engines/wagons to at least 1? this is what i've come up with so far
06:16<juzza1>http://pastebin.com/NdG7Lnvm
06:16<@Alberth>how to buy an engine then?
06:16<juzza1>if E = engine, W = wagon, it lets me create a train like EEEWWW but not EWEWEW
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06:16<@Alberth>ieks
06:17<juzza1>so in the train there should always be at least one engine per one wagon
06:17<@Alberth>why do you enforce your world view upon others?
06:17<@Alberth>EWEWEW <- that has 1 engine for each wagon too, imho
06:18<V453000>why would you make a limit like that? :d
06:18<V453000>it is just confusing for players and makes autoreplacing break unless you have the precise ratio
06:18<juzza1>because the train in irl is like that
06:18<V453000>that isnt a reason tbh
06:18<V453000>it will break in the game badly
06:18<juzza1>mm might not include it in final release, but would like to know if i can make it anyway
06:19<@Alberth>if you can we should fix the newgrf specs imho :p
06:19<V453000>well you could always make the wagon articulated to the engine
06:20<V453000>if the engine is double headed then you could just add some visual switches for end/beginning of consist
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06:20<V453000>either way I would strongly advise not to make senseless restrictions, let the players construct trains as they want ... if you set their power to be very low, they will need to make more engines anyway
06:22<V453000>you could also make the wagons look like engines
06:23<Zuu>LordAro: What are your options?
06:23<juzza1>if there is no easy way, i probably wont include it
06:23<@Alberth>juzza1: don't try to make OpenTTD a simulation of RL
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06:24<@Alberth>it won't give good game play, in general
06:24<LordAro>Zuu: Imperial College London, University College London, York University & Loughborough University
06:24<V453000>I cant think of any way, but making such "realistic" restrictions is only against the set
06:24<LordAro>i'm probably going to go with Imperial as Firm choice, and York as Insurance
06:25<@Alberth>juzza1: ie any feature you add should increase game play fun, instead of making life more difficult
06:25<V453000>^
06:27<Zuu>LordAro: what are your options for what to study?
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06:27<Zuu>Those 3 universities are just names to me. :-)
06:27<juzza1>yeah, im mostly against restrictions too, but this train has completely different couplings than other finnish trains IRL, so it would've been more of a interesting detail than annoying restriction
06:28<juzza1>still, i guess it makes more sense not to overcomplicate things
06:29<V453000>if you cant autoreplace to the train, you wont even notice the "interesting detail"
06:29<@Alberth>it just makes trains with an odd number of carriages impossible
06:30<V453000>coolings are irrelevant to the game. The train is still a box with some stats; adapt its stats to the way you want it to behave
06:31<V453000>obviously there always will be people who are using the trains "wrongly" but they will discover the "right" way sooner or later ... and you could always write that into purchase menu/readme/wiki
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06:31<Zuu>LordAro: I'd say, go CS if that is what you want, but even if you take a different path, having programming knowledge and education in a different work area is quite interesting too even if the formal programming education is quite short if you just go to random engineering programme (you may get 2-4 courses or so). Myself I took the later path.
06:31<LordAro>Zuu: i have indeed applied for computer science
06:32<V453000>couplings
06:32<LordAro>computer science && maths for york
06:32<V453000>still. :D point still stands
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06:36<Wolf01>hello
06:36<juzza1>V453000: i guess the relevancy depends greatly on the focus of the set and the player itself, but most would probably prefer a simpler approach as opposed to a restricted one
06:37<Zuu>LordAro: Enyoy your time and late evenings with tha math books then. :D
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06:37<Zuu>Its actually something special about doing math 8 hours a day. You'll see it when you are there.. :-)
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06:38<Wolf01>http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=526817 at first I was "why people use brickshelf to put every kind of image they have" then I opened the images...
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06:39<Wolf01>I think this is more realistic than the model train I have
06:40<V453000>juzza1: realistic focus of the set has confirmed itself to be problematic many times before
06:42<LordAro>Zuu: got to get there first :) Imperial offer = A*AAA (!!!), York offer = AAA
06:42<juzza1>yes, i agree, makes not much sense considering other aspects of the game
06:42<LordAro>speaking of which, i should be revising
06:43<@Alberth>Wolf01: :D , and hello
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06:52<V453000>juzza1: here are some general ideas I had to make a train set comfortable to use http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2870
06:53<V453000>the only thing I could think of now, is to make all wagons of equal length (without any articulation) and let there be only 1 generation of wagons which could be hauled by any engine, and would adapt their stats accordingly to what they are attached to
06:56<V453000>in order to keep a good usability of the set (point 2 - all trains useful), it is a really good idea to make a table and write down what each train is exactly used as, and when ... e.g. http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/wiki
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09:10<andythenorth>LordAro: I interviewed at Imperial, seemed pretty good, was my second choice
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09:10<andythenorth>this channel is mostly lego now it seems
09:10<andythenorth>the brick disease spreads everywhere :(
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09:29<Eddi|zuHause>exactly one person talked about lego in here
09:29<__ln___>@seen bjarni
09:29<@DorpsGek>__ln___: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 30 weeks, 0 days, 13 hours, 10 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
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09:42<LordAro>huh, internet died
09:43<LordAro>andythenorth: i also interviewed there (obviously) - scary clever people everywhere :L
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09:44<LordAro>wait, what?
09:44<Lord_Aro_>what are you doing?
09:44<__ln___>it's you from evil parallel universe
09:44<LordAro>it would seem so
09:44<Lord_Aro_>it would seem so
09:45<LordAro>hmm, i think irssi has managed to connect twice
09:45<LordAro>hang on
09:45<Lord_Aro_>let's work together to fix this!
09:45<LordAro>ok
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09:48<LordAro>has the paradox been successfully closed?
09:49<__ln___>depends if you have a beard or not
09:49<LordAro>well, i haven't shaved for a couple of days..
09:49<LordAro>..i think
09:49<LordAro>:L
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12:06<andythenorth>so how / where do I check if grfcodec is in the path?
12:06<andythenorth>wrt makefile?
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12:07<@Rubidium>andythenorth: did configure detect grfcodec? If not, then it won't be even trying in the makefile
12:07<Zuu>there are a few utils: whereis, which etc. that give the path to a program. It will probably give an exit code <> 0 if the command is not in the path.
12:08<andythenorth>Rubidium: thanks, old version, that should solve it
12:09<andythenorth>winner
12:09<andythenorth>bbl
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13:10<Eddi|zuHause>"42% of americans are unaware that 'Obamacare' was put into law. 12% believe the law was repealed in congress, 7% believe it had been overturned by the supreme court and 23% don't know enough about the law to determine its status"
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13:16<@Alberth>it's not very different in Europe I think :)
13:18<frosch123>yeah, i have no idea about obamacare
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13:21<Eddi|zuHause>that's because it doesn't even remotely affect you
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14:14<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but... obamacare didn't pass. It's so watered down and filled with crap that it's nothing like what was initially proposed
14:14<@Alberth>andythenorth: is that build failure of bandit expected?
14:15<andythenorth>not so much no :|
14:15<andythenorth>I guess I have to look later :(
14:18<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: and as long as their (grand)parents aren't systematically murdered by the system, how are they supposed to know obamacare is in effect?
14:22<@Alberth>I messed with path resolving, perhaps that broke it
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14:27<andythenorth>:)
14:31<Wolf01>bye
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14:37<V453000>reserved tracls are always track_overlay, right?
14:37<V453000>or is it possible to make reserved tracks and junctions differ?
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14:51<andythenorth>not afaik
14:51<andythenorth>they don't look very good if you look closely
14:53<andythenorth>building openttd.grf fails on line 11 of orig_dos.obg.tmp
14:53<andythenorth>!! description STR_BASEGRAPHICS_DOS_DESCRIPTION
14:54<andythenorth>something missing?
14:56<@Rubidium>a proper awk or so?
14:56<@Rubidium>it should just work (tm)
14:57<@Rubidium>andythenorth: can you be more specific w.r.t. error messages?
14:57<andythenorth>hang on
14:57<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2259/
14:57<andythenorth>yeah, looks like bad awk
14:57<andythenorth>mine shows version 20070501
14:57<andythenorth>sounds old
15:00<@Rubidium>sounds like you got mawk which might not have that function
15:00<andythenorth>OS X allegedly has BSD awk
15:00<andythenorth>rather than gawk or such
15:01<andythenorth>fink
15:02<andythenorth>hmm wrong window :P
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15:15<andythenorth>so I have gawk installed, and have aliased awk to gawk
15:16<andythenorth>but I get the same error as I posted above
15:16<andythenorth>I have run ./configure
15:18<@Alberth>alias in the shell?
15:18<andythenorth>bash_profile
15:18<andythenorth>alias awk=/usr/local/Cellar/gawk/4.0.1/bin/gawk
15:19<@Alberth>make doesn't find commands via the shell
15:19<andythenorth>right
15:20<@Alberth>./configure has a --awk option
15:21<@Rubidium>andythenorth: that's only a workaround :(
15:21<@Rubidium>andythenorth: http://rbijker.net/openttd/try_this.diff ;)
15:21<@Rubidium>(make sure you're not using gawk)
15:21<@Alberth>hmm, FIRS without FISH is not good :p
15:22<andythenorth>I should make FISH 2 :P
15:22<andythenorth>Rubidium: \o/ (I think)
15:24<@Alberth>it cannot transport fish now :(
15:24<andythenorth>so a whole lot of river sprites are unused afaict?
15:24<andythenorth>are there multiple slope variants?
15:29<@Rubidium>andythenorth: is my deduction that it work for your awk correct?
15:29<andythenorth>yes
15:29<andythenorth>I am looking at pink pixels in game
15:29<andythenorth>intentionally ;)
15:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25218 /trunk (9 files in 2 dirs) (2013-05-04 19:30:37 UTC)
15:30<@DorpsGek>-Fix: the baseset description translation script did not work with any awk other than gawk
15:31<andythenorth>:)
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15:47<alluke>i just came here to break the silence
15:48<V453000>die infidel!
15:48<V453000>silence must be preserved
15:49<alluke>bahhahaa
15:49<alluke>you cant stop me
15:49<V453000>:(
15:54<andythenorth>hmm
15:54*andythenorth considers patching river drawing
15:54<LordAro>again?
15:54<LordAro>:p
15:54<andythenorth>curves currently show straight banks underneath
15:54<andythenorth>ach nvm
15:55<alluke>last time i was here you talked about drawing rivers
15:55<alluke>and now again
15:55<V453000>you have bad influence on him
15:55<V453000>silence
15:55<frosch123>night
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15:56<andythenorth>any better? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4409/new_curves_rivers.png
15:56<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ?
15:56-!-flaa [~flaa@89.100.79.103] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:56<andythenorth>not finished sprite btw
15:56<andythenorth>just the shape
15:57<alluke>i think its too sharp
15:57<andythenorth>ok I'll add that to my long list of feedback, thanks
15:57<alluke>flowing water should smoothen the edges
15:57-!-goodger [~ben@host86-186-158-81.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: goodger]
15:57<alluke>see real pictures
15:57<andythenorth>oh fuck, I should have thought of that
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15:58<andythenorth>what is too sharp?
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15:58<alluke>the shape
15:59<andythenorth>right
15:59<andythenorth>ok I'll revert back to the standard rivers
16:00<andythenorth>better? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4412/old_curves.png
16:01<alluke>yes
16:01<andythenorth>ok forget rivers then
16:02<alluke>i dont think its possible to make realistic curving rivers when you can build only 90° curves
16:02<andythenorth>Alberth: what do you think causes the bandit bug?
16:02<alluke>i havent heard news from bandit for long time
16:02<@Alberth>.. is not recognized as path component?
16:03<andythenorth>alluke: the news is there is a bug
16:03<alluke>lol
16:03<alluke>but the topic havent got any news about development
16:03<alluke>i thought it was dead
16:04<andythenorth>it is
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16:05<V453000>dying
16:06<alluke>about time
16:12-!-nicfer [~yaaic@190.50.6.84] has joined #openttd
16:12<nicfer> bello
16:13<nicfer>hello*
16:13<@Alberth>o/
16:14<V453000>hu
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16:17<nicfer>I'm trying to make a newgrf that modifies industries to accept different cargos but I can't understand how to use the cargotype() function
16:19<nicfer>for use on the accepted_cargo variable
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16:23<alluke>lol
16:23<alluke>osku :3
16:26<nicfer>wait… is there a better IRC for this question? I forgot to tell that I'm using NML
16:26<Supercheese>this is the best IRC
16:27<alluke>and only?
16:27<Supercheese>well, openttdcoop IRC might work too
16:27<Supercheese>but this channel's better
16:27<Supercheese>anyway lemme see
16:27<alluke>i dont count coop and dev
16:28<Supercheese>well, if you don't count them then yeah :P
16:28<Supercheese>accepted_cargos [COAL, 8];
16:28<Supercheese>something like that eh?
16:28<Supercheese>cargo labels can be found on a wiki page
16:29<Supercheese>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoTypes
16:29<Supercheese>you shouldn't need a special function
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16:29<Supercheese>Ah, [COAL, 8] is for industry tile
16:29<Supercheese>[COAL, 8]*
16:30<Supercheese>It'd just be accepted_cargo_types [COAL]; for industry
16:31<Supercheese>did that answer ya?
16:34-!-nicfer [~yaaic@190.50.6.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:34<Supercheese>whoops :S
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16:57<Sacro>Anyone around? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=65699
16:59<@Rubidium>not using one of the supported versions of MSVC?
16:59<Sacro>I'm guessing 2012 counts as 'not supported'?
16:59<@Rubidium>I guess so
16:59<Sacro>Ah :*
16:59<Sacro>:*
16:59<Sacro>er
16:59<Sacro>:(
17:00<__ln___>http://imgur.com/JtX35i9
17:01<Supercheese>Hmmm
17:02<@Rubidium>I seem to remember it needing Windows 8, so... no chance of me running it
17:02<Sacro>Nope, runs in 7
17:03<+glx>2012 works
17:04<+glx>but should use 2010 compilers
17:04<+glx>IIRC
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17:10<__ln___>http://is11.snstatic.fi/img/978/1288562695362.jpg
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>__ln___: it's called a backburner :p
17:15<Sacro>glx: so how'd you get past that error?
17:18<+glx>Sacro: use another platform toolset in project properties
17:18<+glx>anything except VS2012 toolset
17:21<+glx>http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=8279 <-- like this one
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17:25<alluke>lol
17:26<alluke>someones reading ilta-sanomat
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17:36<andythenorth>I have some kind of palette issue, and only the RH banks are changed
17:36<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4421/meh_rivers.png
17:37<andythenorth>but fuck it, this is better
17:37<alluke>rofl
17:37<alluke>i just made train hit 1046 kmh
17:38<Supercheese>andy: the southeastern end looks odd
17:38<alluke>20 invisible power boosters + few serbian cabooses
17:39<peter1139>cheat
17:40<andythenorth>Supercheese: needs the appropriate curve on the other bank
17:41<Supercheese>can the banks overlap at the terminus?
17:41<Supercheese>seems like it
17:41<Supercheese>should be good
17:41<gelignite>hey guys, quick question (AI development): what's best practise to check whether i can build a depot on a sloped tile?
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>there should be a flag to try building without actually building anything (similar to a human holding shift)
17:44*alluke slaps oskari89 around a bit with a large fishbot
17:44<LordAro>AITestMode iirc
17:44<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: something like CAPSLOCK ?
17:45<LordAro>g'night all
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>I DON'T THINK THAT IS WHAT WAS MEANT :P
17:45<LordAro>http://bash.org/?835030
17:45<LordAro>^relevant, somewhat
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>oh, a classic :)
17:46<LordAro>indeed :)
17:46<LordAro>anyway, g'night, again
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17:55<nicfer>back
17:56<nicfer>I tried your tip cheese but it didn't work
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17:56<nicfer>using the cargoid did
17:57<nicfer>for example accepted_cargo_type: [01]; made the industry accept coal
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>did you use a cargo translation table?
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if that solves anything, though. usually they are for vehicle sets, not for industry sets
17:59<Supercheese>afk
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>that is a blatant lie :p
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>you have to be at the keyboard to type afk :)
18:09<Zuu>gelignite: SuperLib has some methods to check if a tile allows different type of construction with respect to slope.
18:09<Zuu>I would look into SuperLib::Tile to start with.
18:09<nicfer>I remember seeing somewhere how to create those cargo translation tables
18:09<nicfer>but don't remember how
18:10<Zuu>gelignite: here are the slope methods of SuperLib: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/superlib/repository/revisions/40806b989652/entry/tile.nut#L69
18:11<Zuu>The method to use for depots is: SuperLib.Tile.IsBuildOnSlope_FlatForTerminusInDirection
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18:12<gelignite>Zuu, thanks. I'll have a look.
18:13<Zuu>I'm not 100% sure the slope methods have been updated by the new build-on-slope rules for eg. airports, but it should at least not return false positives.
18:15<gelignite>Zuu, seems pretty much to be what i was looking for. and in case it doesn't fit my needs i'll adapt it. thanks
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18:16<andythenorth>wtf happened to the palette in this file?
18:16<Zuu>If you find any bugs, please let me know by eg. posting to the SuperLib thread.
18:16<andythenorth>nvm
18:16<andythenorth>bed
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18:27<alluke>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/N%C3%A4ytt%C3%B6kuva%202013-05-02%20kohteessa%2019.25.45.png
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18:27<alluke>now what could cause this?
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18:28<nicfer>also, can industries use cargo provided via their tiles (like passengers on steel mills) to alterate their production rates?
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18:51<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: that happens when the border sprites aren't drawn properly
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>like a grf replacing the wrong sprites, or using the moreheightlevels patch without the flat blacktiles
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: no, industries can only handle the input cargos you directly specify. industrytiles can accept more, but they can't be processed
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19:22<nicfer>how do I enable industries on non-native climates? I looked at the NML specs but didn't find anything
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>looked at other industry sets like OpenGRF+Industries?
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>it has that exact feature, you know?
19:27<nicfer>they do something like enabling it inside a conditional
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>the conditional is about the parameter so the player can choose
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19:41<nicfer>there are also conditionals about climates
19:41<nicfer>mostly in #define lines
19:42<nicfer>like, if it's not the correct climate, the industries get disabled
19:44<nicfer>but I don't find the line that actually enables them
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but again, these defines are distractions. where the defines are used you must search
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20:17<nicfer>I'm screwing it do bad...
20:17<nicfer>now steel mills produce water
20:20<nicfer>I'm making a newgrf that should use opengfx+ industries, but it doesn't seem to be aware that the latter is active and decides to use vanilla IDs instead
20:22<nicfer>or something similar
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20:25<Eddi|zuHause>each industry grf is operating on its own copy of the original industries
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot modify the industries of another set
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---Logclosed Sun May 05 00:00:51 2013