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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-05-06

---Logopened Mon May 06 00:00:52 2013
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05:10<juzza1>someone wanna give me some feedback? as bluntly as possible please
05:11<juzza1>https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9usRKUv7vK5Y0F6M1ZsVlBiMUE/edit?usp=sharing is supposed to look like http://www.vaunut.org/kuva/41366?tag0=11|Taimn|
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08:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25220 trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp (2013-05-06 12:49:04 UTC)
08:49<@DorpsGek>-Change [FS#Eddi]: Consider map border as water wrt. river/canal continuation.
08:49<@planetmaker>oh :-)
08:50<@planetmaker>water patches indeed suit you well, frosch123 ;-)
08:50<frosch123>:p
08:50<@planetmaker>especially if it means more water ;-)
08:54<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/index.php?source=water_var82.diff still needs testing. I don't yet have sprites to check properly
08:55<frosch123>compile farm burped
08:55<frosch123>i bet because of the translation
08:55<@planetmaker>gaelic is broken
08:55<frosch123>yeah, but wt3 has already modifications, so i do not dare to fix it via svn :)
08:55<@planetmaker>trunk/src/lang/gaelic.txt:5074: FATAL: Command 'DATE_TINY' can't have a case
08:55<@planetmaker>oh, ok
08:57<@planetmaker>hm, the linked patch definitely misses a return ;-)
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09:05<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25221 /trunk/src (newgrf_station.cpp station_map.h) (2013-05-06 13:05:04 UTC)
09:05<@DorpsGek>-Fix: IsCompatibleTrainStationTile() is not a symmetric function. Clarify the parameters and fix the cases were they were swapped.
09:07<@planetmaker>fs#5542?
09:07<frosch123>not quite
09:07<frosch123>rather something i noted to look at, but likely related :p
09:08<frosch123>your TILE_ADDXY order seems to match the one of ttdp :)
09:08<@planetmaker>it matches your quote from yesterday :-P
09:09<frosch123>well, but if you translate in one direction, and then back, you might compare begin and end :)
09:09<frosch123>http://projects.tt-forums.net/projects/ttdpatch/repository/entry/trunk/patches/water.asm#L915
09:11<@planetmaker>not sure I get what you try to tell me :-)
09:11<frosch123>there are a number of -1 and +1 in the ttdp source and in your diff :)
09:11<@planetmaker>yes. Though the numbers in my patch come from OpenTTD source really
09:12<frosch123>i translated them to directions, and you translated the directions back to -1/+1 :)
09:12<@planetmaker>yes, that I did :-)
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09:23<@planetmaker>maybe nice to add the documentation as found there... (updated diff)
09:24<frosch123>not sure about that :p
09:25<frosch123>i have no idea how to read that comment without reading the source
09:25<frosch123>it has weird numbering and a weird orientation
09:25<@planetmaker>yes... orientation will need adoption. As will numbering
09:26<frosch123>not sure how useful the line number is, you could name the function "getdikemap"
09:26<frosch123>unless you consider ttdp source stable :p
09:26<@planetmaker>I do, yes
09:27<@planetmaker>but I'll quote a specific version. That's feasible
09:28<@planetmaker>http://projects.tt-forums.net/projects/ttdpatch/repository/revisions/2367/entry/trunk/patches/water.asm#L879
09:29<@planetmaker>Though with up = North, and proper bit numbering (starting at 0), it has no similarity anymore :-P
09:29<frosch123>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2264/ <- feels easiest to me
09:30<@planetmaker>good suggestion. I'll use it
09:32<frosch123>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2265/ <- or if you want something more fancy :p
09:32<__ln___>http://www.satakunnankansa.fi/Satakunta/1194811830824/artikkeli/juuri+nyt+yksi+menehtyi+pakettiauton+ja+junan+tormayksessa+raumalla.html
09:32<frosch123>but does not necessarily improve readability :p
09:32<@planetmaker>indeed not. Diff updated
09:32<@planetmaker>I'll try to test it tonight by creating a test grf
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>that does not look healthy at all
09:40<@planetmaker>with respect to map borders?
09:40<@planetmaker>possibly
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>no, i meant __ln___'s picture
09:43<@planetmaker>ah. Yes. Operation outside the specs, I assume ;-)
09:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25222 trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp (2013-05-06 13:45:58 UTC)
09:46<@DorpsGek>-Change: Unify the behaviour of Vehicle::tick_counter between RV and trains by incrementing it also for articulated RV parts.
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09:59<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25223 trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp (2013-05-06 13:59:11 UTC)
09:59<@DorpsGek>-Change: [NewGRF] Unify the behaviour of Aircraft::tick_counter with other vehicle types and increment it once per tick. (instead of twice like before, or six times like in r0)
09:59<@planetmaker>lol
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10:04<Eddi|zuHause>but you break aircraft animation!! :p
10:04<@planetmaker>occasionally one must be evil. Or the fame will decay
10:04<frosch123>nope
10:05<frosch123>aircraft smoke is broken as much as before
10:05<frosch123>and vehicle sound effects are as well, but not they are a bit more sane :)
10:07<@planetmaker>:-)
10:07<oskari892>Eddi|zuhause: Maybe someone could implement breaking train when level crossing accident happens in OpenTTD? :P
10:07<@planetmaker>oskari892, that'll introduce griefing the other way around, too ;-)
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely rember a patch like this
10:08<@planetmaker>(for really little benefit, imho)
10:08<oskari892>Result of that __ln___:ns news http://ls24.fi/jutut/rauma-ja-alue/juttu-yksi-henkilo-menehtyi-tasoristeysturmassa-ayholla seems that of OpenTTD's train crash, locomotive gone grey
10:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25224 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2013-05-06 14:08:27 UTC)
10:08<@DorpsGek>-Fix [part of FS#5534]: cur_speed is only valid for the front engine, so make other engines in the consist use the speed of the front.
10:09<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: ttdp allowed trains to break down in such cases
10:09<frosch123>rv crashes, trains breaks down
10:09<oskari892>:)
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and around the time of MiniIN it was discussed to include that as well
10:10<oskari892>The fireball doesn't burn train in current behaviour :P
10:12<frosch123>are vehicles supposed to play the "idle" sound, when they are stopped?
10:12<oskari892>Yes
10:13<frosch123>also when stopped in depot?
10:13<@planetmaker>uh.. hm...
10:13<frosch123>you build 10 new engines, and the depot is making noise like hell? :p
10:13<@planetmaker>I'd think not
10:13<@planetmaker>depots are houses. Sound-proof houses ;-)
10:13<frosch123>oskari892: i mean stopped as in red flag, not stopped as in waiting
10:14<oskari892>I think yes, unless in a depot
10:14<oskari892>Finnish Trainset uses code to disable effect 08 in a depot
10:15<oskari892>Otherwise, it's effect 08 always, when consist is standing still
10:15<oskari892>Regardless of stopped by flag, PBS or block signal
10:16<oskari892>Or waiting for load
10:16<@planetmaker>for that there's reason to play different sounds
10:16<frosch123>ttdp says, no sound 7 and 8 when stopped or inside tunnel
10:17<frosch123>err, confusing numbers :s
10:17<oskari892>Yes they are
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: "idle" should be "running at speed 0", so "stopped" should not make any sound
10:17<oskari892>It should be effect 08 on that case
10:17<frosch123>the montion effect 4 is not called inside tunnels
10:18<frosch123>the others are :s
10:18<frosch123>how weird
10:18<frosch123>let's ignore ttdp in that case :)
10:18<oskari892>Yes :P
10:18<frosch123>so, what to do in ottd, and what to blame no the grf?
10:18<@planetmaker>inside tunnels: no sound
10:19<@planetmaker>inside depot: no sound
10:19<oskari892>Yep
10:19<frosch123>we have special cases: crashed, stopped in depot, stopped with red flag, braking, running at speed 0, running at speed > 0
10:19<oskari892>Crashed: no sound at all
10:20<@planetmaker>it should remain allowed to play sound
10:20<@planetmaker>frosch123, I'm missing "loading / unloading" as separate item
10:21<oskari892>Loading/unloading should play together with 08
10:21<oskari892>Stopped in a depot: no sound at all
10:21<@planetmaker>the sound numbers don#t tell me anything
10:21<oskari892>see newgrfspecs
10:22<oskari892>or thread: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=65649&p=1076101#p1076101
10:22<@planetmaker>ty
10:22<oskari892>Whoops, this http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=65649&p=1076101#p1076101
10:22<@planetmaker>right, those numbers
10:23<oskari892>Stopped with red flag should return 08
10:23<oskari892>Braking hasn't got any effect yet, current behaviour is 07
10:24<oskari892>(should it be changed to 08?)
10:24<frosch123>yeah, we considered that the other day :)
10:24<frosch123>thus why i am asking
10:24<oskari892>Running at speed 0 is easy case: 08, since it's basically stopped
10:25<oskari892>Running at speed >0 is easy case too, 07
10:25<@planetmaker>why not 04?
10:25<frosch123>04 is independent from 07 an d08
10:25<oskari892>Because then sound effects will break
10:26<frosch123>the only thing to decide about 04 is to skip it inside tunnels
10:26<frosch123>it does not happen in the other cases anyway
10:26<@planetmaker>ok
10:26<frosch123>07/08 is about tunnels/depots/redflag
10:27<frosch123>well, only 08 actually :)
10:27<frosch123>i think it should be silent when redflag
10:27<frosch123>redflag is powered off
10:28<oskari892>But then locomotives aren't idling
10:28<frosch123>redflag != redsignal
10:28<@planetmaker>yes. But I feel also that red flag = power off
10:28<@planetmaker>signal stop or speed 0 w/o red flag = idle
10:29<oskari892>But then locomotives could also have "power on"/"power off" sounds
10:29<oskari892>I think red flag is 08, easiest way
10:30<oskari892>It's current way and i'm happy with it
10:30<@planetmaker>why would a powered-off engine make sound?
10:30<oskari892>Because of idling engine? :)
10:30<@planetmaker>or an engine parked in a train yard? It's after all NOT idling. It's standing. No power
10:30<@planetmaker>Idling is what you do in a station, at a signal etc.
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10:31<@planetmaker>or does your car idle all night while you sleep? I don't think so
10:31<oskari892>Could that be a switch so one could decide him/herself?
10:31<@planetmaker>tmwftlb
10:31<oskari892>Red flag sound behaviour: 08/no sound?
10:31<@planetmaker>oskari892, how often do you use the red flag?
10:32<@planetmaker>outside depots
10:32<oskari892>To stop something from happening? :P
10:32<@planetmaker>yes. And how relevant is that wrt total trains?
10:32<@planetmaker>it's like 1 / 500 in numbers. And 15 minutes / 10 hours. Or so
10:33<@planetmaker>and it's power off. Thus illogical to call it 'idle'
10:34<oskari892>Could it also have "powered up/powered down sounds" then, if power off=no sound? :)
10:34<oskari892>Such as locomotive engine starting
10:34<@planetmaker>yes. red flag = powered down.
10:34<@planetmaker>that's the definition really
10:34<@planetmaker>and a rock makes no sound except in earth quakes ;-)
10:34<@planetmaker>it could have those sounds. But ... that's a feature :-P
10:35<oskari892>:P
10:35<oskari892>Braking could be 08?
10:36<@planetmaker>but please convince me: why do you want to treat idling at a signal the same as powered off in a train yard?
10:36<@planetmaker>and as I understand it, you can't re-define the meaning of the existing numbers really. Unless it's not used anywhere
10:36<oskari892>Well, at least here some years ago, those locomotives were _idling_ and standing there
10:37<@planetmaker>which of course is frosch's question ;-)
10:37<oskari892>(speaking of locomotives sitting on yard)
10:37<oskari892>Putting off smoke :P
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10:37-!-planetmaker is "Ingo von Borstel" on @#openttd @+#openttdcoop +#openttd.dev @+#openttdcoop.dev +#openDune @+#openttdcoop.stable #openttdcoop.devzone @+#openttdcoop.nightly @+#coopetition @+#wwottdgd
10:38<@planetmaker>hmpf... focus with mouse over has sometimes disadvanteges :-P
10:38<frosch123>everything has disadvantages :)
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10:38<Eddi|zuHause>i have more problems when the window with the mouse in it does not have focus
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>like after drag&drop happens a lot
10:39<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yes, I have then more problems, too ;-)
10:40<frosch123>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2266/ <- that's what i have now
10:40<frosch123>depot, tunnel, crashed: no sound no matter what
10:41<frosch123>braking: effect 08 instead of 07
10:41<frosch123>redflag: 08, up to the grf to not play it
10:41<oskari892>Yes,
10:41<oskari892>good behaviour that way :)
10:42<@planetmaker>I maintain the argument that sound while power off makes no sense :-)
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>i agree with planetmaker
10:42<oskari892>Planetmaker: Think about this case:
10:42<oskari892>Train is stopped on line using red flag
10:43<@planetmaker>good. thought about it. I keep up my argument :-)
10:43<oskari892>After you press green flag AND it has free way to go, it's straight jump to running sound
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>people use "red flag" stopping for simulated railway museums and stuff
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>it should not play sounds
10:43<oskari892>Grf could disable it if wanted
10:43<oskari892>Or enable it if wanted? :P
10:44<oskari892>Could it be that way, everyone is happy?
10:44<@planetmaker>rather they should get the chance to play a powering-on or powering-off sound.
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see any use-case where stopped trains making sounds would be useful
10:44<@planetmaker>but I only use red flag i nthe way eddi describes
10:44<@planetmaker>thus it makes no sense to have sound for stopped available by default at all
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10:45<oskari892>Stopped= red flag
10:45<oskari892>Not the idle
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes
10:45<@planetmaker>yes
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>well, people use stopping to rebuild junctions and stuff as well :)
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10:46<@planetmaker>there it suffices to stop one train. And the queue of 100 trains waiting will create sufficient idle sounds ;-)
10:46<oskari892>:P
10:47<@planetmaker>yes. think about it
10:47<@planetmaker>thus this case where a stopped train blocks the line, has virtually no sound impact due to jam
10:47<@planetmaker>while it's not sensible in all other use cases I can come up with
10:48<oskari892>Usually there are single locomotives waiting for train, in "idle" state here
10:48<oskari892>Not powered off
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>but those are timetabled wait times, not "stopped"
10:49<oskari892>Could it be best compromice to redflag = no sound, up to grf to enable it if wanted?
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
10:50<@planetmaker>oskari892, that really goes on a tangent and does not address the question
10:52<oskari892>You could have a timetabled wait for "long time" and have a idle sound without stopped state?
10:52<oskari892>I meant on order list
10:52<@planetmaker>you can timetable your wait for as long as you want...
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10:53<Eddi|zuHause>max timetable time is 65535 ticks (around 2 game years)
10:53<@planetmaker>:-)
10:54<oskari892>And you could have just one station on a orders list :P
10:54<@planetmaker>could? sometimes do.
10:54<@planetmaker>if you know how to play the path finder, it allows self-regulating networks
10:55<@planetmaker>with always the right amount of trains at a station
10:55<@planetmaker>and a nice amount of buffer trains
10:55<@planetmaker>in a depot
10:55<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: unless daylenth is in effect, then it might be like one day ;)
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>at least one person wanted to timetable a longer wait time :p
10:57<oskari892>But let's continue at the sfx discussion
10:57<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25225 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2013-05-06 14:57:42 UTC)
10:57<@DorpsGek>-Fix: [NewGRF] Play vehicle sound effect also for planes.
10:57<oskari892>Waiting on any signal, regardless of signal type, should be effect 08
10:58<@planetmaker>every speed = 0 when not red flag ;-)
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>oskari892: you haven't really paid attention?
10:59<@planetmaker>biab
10:59<oskari892>Eddi|zuhause: i have :P
11:02<oskari892>But forgot that it was already discussed.
11:02<frosch123>well, i guess. playing a sound when stopped and not intentional is more annoying, than missing sound when stopped but desired
11:04<oskari892>:(
11:04<oskari892>I'll miss that :P
11:08<oskari892>frosch123: And the second thing, "running sound to be called from all vehicles in the consist, including wagons, articulated parts and rear-heads."
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>well you can patch your game :p
11:08<frosch123>oskari892: i hope to get hold of pikka wrt. that first
11:09-!-alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd
11:09<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25226 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2013-05-06 15:09:21 UTC)
11:09<oskari892>Current behaviour (only for front) leads to not so nice situations
11:09<@DorpsGek>-Fix/Change [FS#5538]: [NewGRF] Revise when vehicle running sound effects 04, 07 and 08 are played.
11:09<@DorpsGek> In depot or tunnel, or when crashed or stopped: No sound.
11:09<@DorpsGek> Braking: Effect 08 instead of 07.
11:11<@planetmaker>back
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11:12<oskari892>frosch123: PM him?
11:15<alluke>@oskari892
11:16<alluke>make all midcab locos able to turn around via ctrl-click
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11:16<oskari892>They do?
11:16-!-Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.16.71.156] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:17<oskari892>Or which don't?
11:17<juzza1>i only have it on dv12 and pr1 atm
11:17<alluke>yep
11:17<alluke>i also thing the series refit is too much hassle
11:17<oskari892>Nope
11:17<alluke>series by random would be better imho
11:18<oskari892>You can ignore it if wanted
11:18<oskari892>:P
11:18<alluke>you can buy three 1700-series and sell the rest
11:18<alluke>2700*
11:18<juzza1>i dont see the problem when the default behaviour is like IRL
11:18<oskari892>It will be implemented current way
11:19<oskari892>If one doesn't want to use refits, (s)he doesn't
11:21<alluke>why do sm1 and 2 have different windows?
11:21<alluke>they are pretty similar irl
11:21<alluke>http://helsinki.trumanb.net/wp-content/gallery/vr-sm1/a_sm1-60146214.jpg
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11:23<oskari892>alluke: ask purno, he did those :P
11:23<alluke>doh
11:28<oskari892>Seems that ones with smaller windows do have right amount of windows... which don't look good, since the 32px limit
11:28<oskari892>Could be tricked to 40px, but not in near future
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>*hüstel*
11:29<oskari892>That would also cover everything else too then...
11:29-!-Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd
11:29<alluke>i dont think the number of windows is important
11:29<alluke>most of the vehicles are shortened anyway
11:29<alluke>bigger ones look more correct
11:31<alluke>costs loading speeds and lifes need to be done too
11:32<oskari892>Yes, not so fast....
11:32<oskari892>(Will be done at some point of time)
11:33<alluke>sorry :P
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11:41<juzza1>its good that you tell what you would like to be improved, but ofc we have to prioritize stuff
11:41<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25227 trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp (2013-05-06 15:41:34 UTC)
11:41<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5541]: Give bridges owned by noone (from bankrupt companies) to the first company which replaces the bridge. Everyone could have removed/rebuild the bridge anyway.
11:41<juzza1>the flipping thing is an easy one, so should be available soon
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12:01<frosch123>hmm, is railtype compatibility a symmetric relation?
12:01<@planetmaker>no
12:01<@planetmaker>elrail is compatible with rail. But not vice versa
12:01<frosch123>compatible, not powered
12:02<frosch123>both rail and elrail vehicle can drive both on rail and elrail
12:02<@planetmaker>uhm... then... possibly yes
12:02<frosch123>so, that default case is symmetric
12:02<frosch123>i just wonder whether we enforce that :)
12:03<frosch123>otherwise we are completely screwed with station reservations and such
12:04<frosch123>hmm, maybe the asymmetric poweredness already breaks it
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12:14<frosch123>no, we do not enforce any symmetry :s
12:14<oskari892>frosch123: You can put electric locomotive behind diesel
12:14<oskari892>And it still runs on normal unelectrified track
12:15<frosch123>that much i know :)
12:15<oskari892>It's good behaviour
12:15<frosch123>but if you build a rail and maglev station in a row
12:15<@planetmaker>frosch123, I guess we could enforce symmetry though w/o breaking anything
12:15<frosch123>shall pbs reservations from the rail station extend over the maglev platform? :p
12:16<frosch123>planetmaker: i guess unversal rail totally breaks it
12:16<@planetmaker>the symmetry?
12:16<frosch123>yes
12:16<@planetmaker>uhm... why?
12:16<@planetmaker>it's compatible with everything. everything compatible with it.
12:16<frosch123>if rail and universal rail are compatible, and universal rail and maglev are compatible
12:17<frosch123>that implies that rail and maglev are compatible
12:17<@planetmaker>uh... how does that follow from those two and symmetry?
12:17<frosch123>well, i also implied transitivity :)
12:17<@planetmaker>that's an additional requirement :-P
12:17<oskari892>If isn't broken, don't fix it
12:17<frosch123>oskari892: it's completely broken
12:18<frosch123>we have two fs issues about it
12:18<frosch123>well, i guess we have to put the vehicle itself into the equation then
12:19<frosch123>universal rail vehicle would then reserve both the rail and maglev platform
12:19<frosch123>while a maglev vehicle would not reserve the rail platform
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>transitivity is totally broken with railtypes
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>i've stumbled across this problem before
12:20<frosch123>well, i guess the compatiblity is only meant as relation from engines to rails
12:20<frosch123>not between rails
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>when trying to resolve compatible railtypes when dragging one railtype over another
12:20<@planetmaker>that's how it was interpreted so far (and also how I understood it, yes)
12:20<frosch123>every codepart whcih uses rail to rail relations is broken thus
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>which there is no good heuristics for
12:22<frosch123>ok, overbuilding one piece of track with another one is unsolvable
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>if you consider e.g. a "3rd rail" and a "catenary" railtype, dragging one over the other will produce "wrong" results
12:32<alluke>are roadtypes coming some day
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>no. openttd is dying, you know.
12:34<frosch123>hmm, or should pbs ignore railtypes completely?
12:34<frosch123>and always reserve the whole platform :s
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably the safest
12:35<@planetmaker>hm... that's difficult
12:35<@planetmaker>deciding upon the engine is too troublesome, I guess
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>as long as movement along the reservation will not blindly follow it, without checking railtype
12:35<@planetmaker>MUCH too troublesome
12:36<frosch123>well, it would also affect station animation and such, but i guess noone cares Ö:p
12:36<frosch123>let's see what block signals do
12:36<frosch123>oh, wait, i know that from coop
12:36<frosch123>they also ignore railtypes
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they always have been
12:37<frosch123>well, then it's decided
12:37<frosch123>same for pbs
12:37<@planetmaker>yes. So... safe assumption is to make it uniform
12:38<alluke>dying?
12:40<frosch123>alluke: we have more players than ever, but less devs than ever
12:40<alluke>yeah
12:41<peter1139>it's dead already
12:41<alluke>drawing is dying skill since everythings 3d
12:41<ToBeFree>both is a good sign, depending on the interpretation
12:41<ToBeFree>it might become Thunderbird-like one day. ;-D
12:42<frosch123>oh, how many devs does thunderbird have? :p
12:43-!-alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
12:44<@planetmaker>there he goes ;-)
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12:47<frosch123>omg...
12:47<frosch123>can we somehow forbid mixing railtypes inside stations? :p
12:48<oskari892>I think that's impossible, if different railtypes are paraller
12:48<oskari892>On same station
12:49<oskari892>And people might have saves which contain stations not properly converted to electric rail
12:49<oskari892>1 of rails left out of conversion or so...
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>well original did that. they only allowed pure monorail or pure rail stations
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>not mixed
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>then someone came along and implemented joining new platforms to existing stations. and non-uniform stations. and more railtypes. and ...
12:58-!-Superuser [~root@cust-120-96.on4.ontelecoms.gr] has joined #openttd
12:59<@Terkhen>hello
13:02-!-roadt [~roadt@223.240.100.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:21<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
13:22<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, do you still remember the meaning of the four parameters to NML's var[0xXX, a, b, c] ?
13:22<@planetmaker>especially a, b and c?
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>one is the shift, one is the mask, and the other one is the var60+ parameter
13:23<@planetmaker>ty
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Deprecated_syntax
13:24<@planetmaker>there it is... :-) didn't exactly find it
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>it's somewhat hidden, yes :)
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13:48*frosch123 kicks wt3
13:49<@planetmaker>uh
13:50<frosch123>well, 5 minutes is kind of long for 19 changed strings :p
13:50<@planetmaker>:-) yeah
13:51<V453000>unicorns causing a blockade
13:58<frosch123>yeah, as unicorn running into a wall is similar to putting your tongue on frozen metal
13:58<@planetmaker>outch
14:01<frosch123>hmm, an even more inappropiate analogy comes to mind...
14:02-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
14:06<frosch123>TrueBrain: so, why is wt3 whining?
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14:06<frosch123>it should have committed gaelic
14:07<@Alberth>evenink
14:07<TrueBrain>well, if you know better, I suggest you write a WT yourself ;)
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14:08<Wolf01>hello
14:08<frosch123>TrueBrain: well, i hoped you know it well enough, so you can kick it where it hurts
14:08<frosch123>or something like that :p
14:09<TrueBrain>WT said you were too abusive towards him, so he stopped working ;)
14:09<TrueBrain>it did write Gaelic, but it appears it didnt trigger any change in the output file
14:10<TrueBrain>I wonder how the strings got marked as changed
14:10<TrueBrain>as they are not
14:10<frosch123>hmm, changed and reverted?
14:10<frosch123>or only unmarked for validation?
14:10<TrueBrain>neither should put them in this state
14:10<TrueBrain>it happened, I believe, if cases changed in some odd way
14:11<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
14:11<@Alberth>and frosch123 and TrueBrain
14:11-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-70-162.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
14:11<frosch123>well, gaelic currently has a compile failure
14:11<frosch123>due to invalid gender usage
14:11<frosch123>but i don't think wt3 would notice that
14:11<TrueBrain>hmm, I cannot see the files via the VCS
14:11<TrueBrain>how annoying
14:12<TrueBrain>ah, I am right; cases got removed
14:13<TrueBrain>and reverted, it seems
14:13<TrueBrain>so let me just reload the language
14:14<frosch123>STR_JUST_DATE_TINY.dat :{DATE_TINY.dat} <- dativ date :s
14:15<TrueBrain>ah, I remembed, WT always barked if you fiddled with cases, and then ended up with the original statement
14:15<TrueBrain>it has a hard time tracking cases
14:15<TrueBrain>so it loses the ability to detect it didnt change
14:15<TrueBrain>inr esult ... it always keeps pending :)
14:16<frosch123>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2267/ <- is it a good idea to commit that via svn then? :)
14:17-!-Superuser [~root@cust-120-96.on4.ontelecoms.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:17<TrueBrain>reload is done, go for it
14:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25228 trunk/src/lang/gaelic.txt (2013-05-06 18:17:42 UTC)
14:17<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Dates have no cases.
14:18<frosch123>TrueBrain: thanks a lot :)
14:18<TrueBrain>no worries
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14:32<George>Does var 61 work wile CB 1D?
14:34<frosch123>likely
14:34<@planetmaker>code says 'yes'
14:34<@planetmaker>newgrf_engine.cpp:646 following
14:35<George>But I can't make it work
14:35-!-ToBeFree [~tobefree@00019d36.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:35<George>It always returns 0 (outside the consist)
14:36<George>the same code applied while defining graphics works correctly
14:36<George>looks like the waggon is not attached yet while CB 1D
14:36<frosch123>hmm, which vehicle was which again with cb1d ? :)
14:36<frosch123>it was the other way around or something like that
14:37<frosch123>George: yes, that is correct
14:37<frosch123>the wagon is not attached during cb 1d
14:37<George>How can I check the previous wagon props (F2) durinng CB 1D?
14:38<frosch123>you have the engine
14:38<frosch123>and the length of the consist of the engine
14:38<frosch123>cb 1d is called for the consist of the engine up to the wagon before the to be attache done
14:38<frosch123>and the attached wagon
14:39<George>So instead checking -2 I should check +10?
14:39<George>I'll try
14:39<frosch123>well, and the other scope
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14:45<George>Thank you! it works!
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14:49<@planetmaker>great :-)
14:50<@planetmaker>so we'll see a release of the xussr set soon? :-)
14:52<alluke>why aint the xussr in bananas anymore
14:53<alluke>i thought the policy was nothing will be deleted
14:53<alluke>couldnt find the stolen and test trees either
14:53<LordAro>nothing is deleted, but stuff may be 'hidden'
14:53<alluke>lol why
14:54<frosch123>xussr is on bananas just fine
14:54<alluke>whats the difference
14:54<frosch123>the trees were removed because the uploaded was banned
14:54<LordAro>it's still there for people that specifically request it (i.e. server newgrf list (?)), but hidden in the main list
14:55<frosch123>LordAro: xussr isn't even hidden
14:55<LordAro>i didn't bother looking ;)
14:55<alluke>then i must be blind or something
14:55<@planetmaker>maybe it has a min version requirement
14:55<alluke>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/N%C3%A4ytt%C3%B6kuva%202013-05-06%20kohteessa%2021.54.32.png
14:56<LordAro>alluke: which version are you running?
14:56<frosch123>1.2.3 is quite old
14:57<alluke>the latest stable
14:57<frosch123>that's 1.3.0
14:57<LordAro>"latest" ?
14:57<alluke>oops
14:57<alluke>it used to be latest
14:57<LordAro>;)
14:57<frosch123>1.2.3 is over 6 months old
14:57<alluke>only
14:57<@planetmaker>already
14:57<frosch123>ancient, my mother used that
14:58<alluke>why are there so many updates when i cant find any difference
14:58<frosch123>see, you found one :p
14:58<alluke>except the background game
14:58<frosch123>xussr is not available for 1.2.3 apparently
14:58<@planetmaker>did you bother to look at the changelog?
14:58<LordAro>http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTD_1.3.0
15:00<alluke>ok there are some changes
15:00<@Rubidium>oh, so you rather have that we change the "theme" every release, so you think something changes when it's just eye cancer you want to turn off
15:01<alluke>no, dont get it wrong
15:01<alluke>but i havent seen any difference in gameplay
15:01<alluke>all the changes work in the background
15:02<@planetmaker>except, for instance, the changes to newgrf support which you experienced ;-)
15:02<@Rubidium>many of them are minor improvements
15:03<V453000>Randomised death counts! XD
15:03<alluke>yeah that too
15:04<alluke>ive always wondered one thing
15:04<@Rubidium>42
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15:05<alluke>why do mac apps have so much bigger filesize than their windows variants
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15:05<@planetmaker>it's two in one
15:05<frosch123>three?
15:05<@Rubidium>s/two/three/
15:05<MNIM>Because lolmacs
15:05<@planetmaker>three even. indeed
15:05<@planetmaker>ppc, 32bit and 64bit
15:05<@Rubidium>planetmaker: wrong
15:05<@planetmaker>no need to decide and know which bit version you need
15:05<@planetmaker>nor which OS you have
15:06<@planetmaker>no ppc?
15:06<alluke>you could ditch ppc support
15:06<frosch123>alluke: in summary, there are versions for win9x, win 32bit, win 64bit. but the osx build has them in one
15:06<alluke>yeah
15:06<peter1139>ppc has 32 & 64 bit variants too
15:06<alluke>sucks
15:06<@planetmaker>yes... but not in our universal binary, no?
15:07<@Rubidium>planetmaker: well... just checks, only 2 are left (ppc + i386)
15:07<__ln___>alluke: why would anyone want to ditch ppc support?
15:07<@Rubidium>we used to have ppc, ppc 'G5' and i386
15:07<@planetmaker>good. That's what I recalled... so two binaries in one
15:07<@planetmaker>rather: I recalled two only
15:07<@planetmaker>I guess I ditched ppc :-P
15:08<@Rubidium>and the ppc 'G5' is just like the ppc, but with some special compilation flag for faster math stuff
15:08<@planetmaker>*guessed
15:08<@Rubidium>then you could also have x86_64 and ppc_64
15:08<@planetmaker>yes. But... no need really
15:09<@Rubidium>ah, the g5 one is called ppc970
15:09<@Rubidium>planetmaker: only ppc is enough, the rest can run via Rosetta
15:09<frosch123>[21:07] <planetmaker> I guess I ditched ppc :-P <- i thought we ditched all of them :p
15:10<@planetmaker>Rubidium, that's wrong. Rosetta only works till OSX 10.6
15:10<frosch123>that's two releases more than ottd :p
15:10<@planetmaker>ottd supports till 10.5
15:10<@planetmaker>there's some code for 10.6... but no VM for that in the CF
15:11<@Rubidium>planetmaker: so what, 10.6+ isn't supported anyway ;)
15:11<@planetmaker>yes... maybe I should get myself a new laptop :-P
15:11<__ln___>ditching already-existing ppc support for the sake of ditching ppc support would be silly.
15:12<@planetmaker>it would
15:12<alluke>whats the sprite_cache_size 64
15:12<alluke>kb?
15:12<alluke>mb?
15:12<@planetmaker>terrabyte
15:12<frosch123>mega pixels
15:12<alluke>harhar
15:12<peter1139>unused
15:12<frosch123>ah, true
15:13<frosch123>it's called sprite_cache_size_px nowadays
15:13<alluke>i have three caches in my .cfg :P
15:14<frosch123>two of them are deprecated names of the same thing, but different units
15:14<peter1139>damn it, i always forget my ilo login :(
15:14<alluke>damn those pbi quarries
15:14<alluke>i always think i lost my trucks when i hear a bang
15:14<peter1139>and it has a login delay of about 30 seconds
15:15<peter1139>retrying different combinations takes an age
15:17<__ln___>afaik ppc macs are the only relatively easily available big endian platform to test openttd on.
15:17<@planetmaker>that's right
15:17<@planetmaker>whereas "easy" starts to become "difficult", too
15:18<@planetmaker>PPC is deprecated on OSX for 3 releases of the OS and 6 or 7 years out of production
15:18<@planetmaker>s/deprectated/removed/
15:19<@Rubidium>planetmaker: why remove support for something that works better than the stuff that came after it?
15:20<@planetmaker>what did I advocate to remove?
15:20<@Rubidium>you kinda implied it by telling it's "removed" from OSX
15:21<@planetmaker>OSX the operating system. Not OpenTTD
15:21<@planetmaker>10.6 did not shop anymore with anything which runs on PPC. Nor 10.7 or 10.8
15:22<alluke>shame that you cant get rosetta onto lion
15:22<@planetmaker>10.6 still did ship with a ppc emulator - which needed separate install and was off by default
15:22<alluke>i have some ppc apps i need
15:22<alluke>cant update from 10.6
15:22<alluke>unless i get second mac
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15:57<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/test.png
15:57<frosch123>it lacks some grid lines :p
15:57<@planetmaker>:-D yeah... ogfx-landscape is my test grf
15:58<frosch123>the north corner looks nice
15:58<frosch123>the east one is a bit weird
15:58<@planetmaker>next feature there: rivers w/o gridlines
15:58<@planetmaker>seems I had it. But uncommitted
15:58<@planetmaker>the lonley one?
15:58<LordAro>is this for ogfx landscape or (eventually) trunk?
15:58<@planetmaker>that single lake is by intention. It's a separate sprite
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15:58<@Terkhen>good night
15:58<@planetmaker>good night, Terkhen
15:58<frosch123>i mean the east corner
15:59<@planetmaker>frosch123, there's only two new sprites currently which use the feature:
15:59<@planetmaker>the SW river end on the top. And the single lake
15:59<frosch123>ah, ok :)
15:59<@planetmaker>the rest is as-is sprites
16:00<@planetmaker>LordAro, variable 0x82 for canals / rivers
16:00<LordAro>ah, scary grf stuff :)
16:00<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/water_var82.diff
16:01<@planetmaker>not so scary really
16:01<@planetmaker>frosch123, and now we need that for rail :-P
16:01<@planetmaker>And eddi will be happy :-P
16:02<@planetmaker>but that ultimately would allow curved tracks when applied to rail
16:02<frosch123>planetmaker: i wondered... are you using bits 4 to 7?
16:02<frosch123>i wondered whether only bits 0 to 3 make sense :)
16:02<@planetmaker>the var returns all. In the grf I only test currently for values 0x00, 0x01 and other
16:03<@planetmaker>I wondered the same. But all make sense
16:03<@planetmaker>For rivers which flow upwards. or horizontal
16:03<@planetmaker>separate sprites for the
16:03<@planetmaker>them
16:03<frosch123>well, they won't hurt :p
16:03<frosch123>maybe you need them if you do even more smooth river corners
16:03<frosch123>like you intent for rails :p
16:03<@planetmaker>yes
16:03<@planetmaker>no :-P
16:04<@planetmaker>but knowledge about the tiles on the edges allows for more smoothness, I think
16:04<@planetmaker>And I see a BIG explosion in sprites in river grfs... :S
16:04<frosch123>they allow you to look "around" the corner
16:04<@planetmaker>yeah
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16:19<@planetmaker>frosch123, like the updated screenshot http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/test.png
16:20<@planetmaker>what will definitely look strange though is how boats drive on that river
16:20<@planetmaker>they'll zig-zag while the river is straight :-P
16:21<MNIM>uhhh.
16:21<MNIM>Last time I checked they don't zigzag
16:21<@planetmaker>hm... I need to check
16:21<frosch123>s/straight/curvy/
16:22<frosch123>planetmaker: ships move like trains
16:22<frosch123>not like rv
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16:23<@planetmaker>hm... SE misses the "play now" button
16:27<@planetmaker>looks good even :-)
16:27<@planetmaker>so... no objection against patch?
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16:29<frosch123>hmm, let me check whether the var is the same as in ttdp :p
16:29<@planetmaker>there it's for interal use only :-P
16:29<@planetmaker>I wonder actually... do we have other direction variables?
16:30<frosch123>what?
16:31<@planetmaker>other newgrf variables where the adjacent tiles are bit-numbered like here (or unlike here)
16:31<frosch123>planetmaker: i think the var is inverted
16:31<frosch123>bits should be set if land
16:31<frosch123>not if water
16:32<@planetmaker>that's an easy change :-)
16:34<frosch123>planetmaker: GetRailContinuationInfo
16:34<frosch123>station var 46
16:34<frosch123>*45
16:36<@planetmaker>seems same order
16:36<@planetmaker>hm... that's two
16:36<frosch123>it's completely different
16:37<frosch123>but that's fine, it's stations :p
16:37<@planetmaker>yeah
16:37<@planetmaker>:-P
16:37<frosch123>the first four match DiagDirection
16:37<frosch123>so, that is fine
16:38<@planetmaker>patch updated with eight !
16:38<frosch123>:)
16:39<frosch123>only underaged people use so many ! :p
16:39<@planetmaker>alternatively I could invert the result... but I guess that's the same really
16:39<@planetmaker>:D
16:39<frosch123>no, it's fine
16:39<frosch123>the upper bits 8..31 should be cleared
16:40<@planetmaker>the variable is assigned as that value. So... does it need explicit clearing? It's uint32 anyway
16:40<frosch123>you would have if you would invert the complete result
16:40<@planetmaker>ah, yes
16:41<@planetmaker>connectivity = !connectivity & 0x000000FF
16:41<@planetmaker>sure I would have forgotten that :-)
16:41<frosch123>~ instead of ! :)
16:41<@planetmaker>ups. yeah
16:41<frosch123>but yeah, keep it as it is
16:41<frosch123>easier to read
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16:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25229 /trunk/src (3 files) (2013-05-06 20:48:18 UTC)
16:48<@DorpsGek>-Feature: [NewGRF] Variable 0x82 for canals and rivers (dike map)
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17:30<Wolf01>'night
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18:10<frosch123>night
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18:26<@planetmaker>gute Nacht
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23:24<Supercheese>Hmm, I'm contemplating making a Fairey Rotodyne for OTTD
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23:25<Supercheese>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotodyne
23:25<Supercheese>looks like a cool aircraft to me :)
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---Logclosed Tue May 07 00:00:53 2013