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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-05-07

---Logopened Tue May 07 00:00:53 2013
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01:00<MNIM>Do eeeet
01:01<Supercheese>I've got a model in sketchup, I'll make renders in a few days
01:04<Supercheese>40,200 kg payload
01:06<Supercheese>or 44,205 kg, even
01:06<Supercheese>two different numbers, hmm
01:07<Supercheese>wikipedia seems to disagree with itself
01:12<@Rubidium>seems like two different conversions from lb to kg
01:12<@Rubidium>as the number in lb is the same for both
01:12<Supercheese>The FAI apparently doesn't recognize that record though
01:12<Supercheese>only the ≈ 30,000 kg one
01:12<Supercheese> 31,030 kg
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01:14<Supercheese>time to edit
01:15<Supercheese>Oh nevermind
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03:26<Nothing4You>which year should i start in if i want to use the earliest possible year that allows me to build some transport?
03:29<@planetmaker>depends. 1940
03:30<Nothing4You>depends on?
03:30<@planetmaker>choice of NewGRFs
03:30<@planetmaker>with the right choice you likely can start successfully mid 19ths century
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03:31<Supercheese>Or horse-drawn stuff from the 1600s
03:31<Supercheese>for those people who like sllooooooow transport :P
03:31<Nothing4You>horses? that sounds interesting
03:31<@planetmaker>yes... but I found the horse carriages insufficient to keep up with my transport needs
03:31<Supercheese>also sailing ships
03:31<Supercheese>which carry lots more
03:32<Nothing4You>btw i found some typo in the wiki
03:33<@planetmaker>it's a wiki. Please correct it
03:33<Nothing4You> says "In game first Maglev train (Lev1 'Leviathan' or Wizzowow Rocketeer) is available in 2022.", says Designed 2020
03:33<Supercheese>the wiki could use a great deal of correcting
03:33<Nothing4You>i don't know which one is the correct one, i would have to try
03:35<@planetmaker>@calc 28855 / 365 + 1920
03:35<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 1999.05479452
03:36<@planetmaker>@calc 36891 / 365 + 1920
03:36<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 2021.07123288
03:36<@planetmaker>@calc 36891 / 365.25 + 1920
03:36<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 2021.00205339
03:36<@planetmaker>looks like 2021 :-P
03:36<Supercheese>split the difference ;)
03:36<Supercheese>although the random-added stuff means 2022 is not unlikely
03:37<@planetmaker>yup. but 2020 is impossible ;-)
03:37<Nothing4You>so should i write 2021 or 2022 then?
03:37<Nothing4You>or 2021-2022?
03:38<Nothing4You>how about the then?
03:38<@planetmaker>the 0 ... 2 years random change for introduction is not by design of the vehicle but by design of the game
03:38<Nothing4You>also, where did you get that values for calculation from?
03:39<@planetmaker>I looked at the source code
03:40<@planetmaker>the default vehicles' properties are all defined there. Stupid as that is from a design POV
03:41<Nothing4You>the base_intro, right?
03:42<@planetmaker>yes. In days since 1.1.1920
03:42<Nothing4You>@calc 36891 / 365.25 + 1920
03:42<@DorpsGek>Nothing4You: 2021.00205339
03:42<Nothing4You>so i'll adjust both to 2021
03:46<Nothing4You>@calc 39447 / 365.25 + 1920
03:46<@DorpsGek>Nothing4You: 2028
03:47<Nothing4You>@calc 42004 / 365.25 + 1920
03:47<@DorpsGek>Nothing4You: 2035.00068446
03:47<Nothing4You>@calc 42735 / 365.25 + 1920
03:47<@DorpsGek>Nothing4You: 2037.00205339
03:47<Nothing4You>Lev4 is also wrong then
03:54<Supercheese>good night
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07:40<V453000>hm, where can I find on the tt-wiki how to make transparent/semitransparent sprites?
07:42<@peter1138>it's mentioned in the sprite layout stuff
07:42<V453000>ah, thanks
07:46<@planetmaker> <-- see the 'glass effect' recolour sprite
07:54<V453000>is there any example in nml?
07:54<V453000>cant imagine how the usage of this looks like
07:55<frosch123>with 32bpp you can also do alpha channel
07:55<V453000>I just tried writing down spriteset_name * 257 00 0x322
07:56<frosch123> <- it's the recolour_mode thingie
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>there's a recolour{} block
07:57<V453000>and the recolour block is put in item like graphics block?
07:57<V453000>or is it sprite_name { recolour{} }
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>i used recolouring once, but i forgot
07:57<frosch123> <- you should be able to just put them inside a spriteset
07:58<frosch123>anyway, you cannot use any of this stuff for vehicles :p
07:58<@peter1138>dbsetxl does it
07:58<V453000>didnt see that one
07:58<@peter1138>though with nfo of course
07:58<@peter1138>newstatsw i mean :S
07:58<V453000>what? :d well I wanted to use it for rails now
07:58<@peter1138>you can't do that with rails
07:59<frosch123>with vehicles you can only do normal recolouring, no glass-stuff
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07:59<@peter1138>you can do 32bpp alpha
07:59<frosch123>unless you use 32bpp, then you have a alpha channel
07:59<frosch123>but that's not quite the same
08:00<V453000>meh it was proobably a bad idea anyway :)
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08:16<@planetmaker>lalala ... trunk image:
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08:16<Eddi|zuHause>now get a proper artist on it :p
08:17<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, all river tiles there, new and old were created on my machine ;-)
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>what i always wondered: why isn't it possible to set 90° turns for ships and trains separately?
08:17<@planetmaker>but I can't do it in 1 hour :-P
08:18<@planetmaker>and I totally would not mind someone stepping up
08:18<V453000>Fun :D ordering printing here locally is 300% more expensive than ordering it from germany, including transportation
08:21<V453000>also holy shit at diagonal rivers :D
08:23<@planetmaker>coding that can be lengthy :-)
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>just generate it :p
08:24<@planetmaker>then the drawing will be lengthy :-P
08:25<@planetmaker>drawing will be the most lengthy thing there anyway
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08:26<Eddi|zuHause>you only have 2^8 cases :)
08:26<@planetmaker>that many is not needed really
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>(times random states)
08:27<@planetmaker>But then multiply that with terrain types as well
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08:30<Eddi|zuHause>"Windows 8 is the biggest economical failure since 'New Coke'"
08:30<@peter1138>everyone i know who's tried it loves it
08:31<__ln___>peter1138: everyone in an empty set
08:32<stuf>dunno, win8 has been just fine for me
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>well, on the one windows 8 i helped set up, i immediately installed the classic shell
08:35<stuf>I don't really mind the start screen, since the functionality there I usually use is pretty much the same as in win7
08:35<stuf>besides, win8 program indexing seems to be working better, since there isn't that pesky wait time as in win7 when opening up the start menu and searching for something
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't actually used win8
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>or win7
08:37<@planetmaker>windows7 is quite ok. But still... it's windows. It misses xterm :-P
08:37<stuf>but as long as the GUI isn't as much of an atrocity as gimp's (or any piece of adobe software), i'm fine with it
08:38<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25230 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2013-05-07 12:38:43 UTC)
08:38<@DorpsGek>-Feature: [NewGRF] Expose sprite base of foundation and shore sprites via Action D Game Variables.
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>there you have the idea you searched for :p
08:44<frosch123>it's an ancient idea
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>lots of ideas are ancient
08:49<Nothing4You>termite is much better than xterm
08:49<Nothing4You>i only have xterm installed for one reason
08:50<Nothing4You>monodevelop doesn't work without it
08:50<@planetmaker>that judgement sounds poor
08:52<frosch123>well, isn't it more important what shell you run inside the terminal? :p
08:53<@peter1138>what, that?
08:54<frosch123>looks more like kermit for windows
08:54<@peter1138>i don't think that's what Nothing4You means though
08:55<frosch123>"kermit" is an awesome software name btw. more people should use such names :)
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09:00<Eddi|zuHause>is it green and on pushing a button turns red? :p
09:01<frosch123>my brother used that around 1990 trying to set up a "lan" over a distance of 800 meters
09:01<frosch123>across some grass plain to the house of a friend
09:01<frosch123>using some rs232 derivate with heigher voltage levels
09:02<NGC3982>On what kind of cable?
09:02<frosch123>but it did not succeed with anything faster than 600 boud, so it failed for gaming
09:02<frosch123>cannot remember, but if it was that long it cannot be something specially suited
09:03<NGC3982>Doesn't the rs232 standard say that capacitance is too high after 50 feet or something?
09:03<frosch123>likely some random wire with low profile
09:03<frosch123>stuff you use in electric model train networks to wire the signals and such :p
09:03<NGC3982>Hehe, trains.
09:03<frosch123>it was not rs232
09:03<frosch123>but something similar with higher volatage
09:03<NGC3982>I see
09:04<frosch123>maybe it was even an early telephone modem or similiar
09:04<frosch123>something they threw out of the university at that time :)
09:04<Nothing4You>the termite i'm talking about is
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09:07<Eddi|zuHause>wouldn't you rather use BNC cables over such distance? (assuming this was before twisted pair came around)
09:08<frosch123>sure, if you have a 800m bnc cable around
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>although that may also become troublesome beyond 300m-ish
09:09<frosch123>yeah, that it even worked at all :)
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember my school had trouble from one end of the building to the other
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>now, one could look up the size of the standardized east german school building...
09:11<frosch123>if it was built after 1950?
09:12<__ln___>800m bnc (isn't that a connector, so coaxial) cable costs a bit.
09:12<heffer>hmm standard east german school? box shaped!
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>the H-shaped standard building :)
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>construction around 1970-ish
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>(actually the building was only half of the H)
09:14<heffer>ultra wide T shape?
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>something like that, yes
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>the building doesn't exist anymore, though
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09:33<__ln___>oh no, are they destroying valuable architecture?
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09:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25231 trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp (2013-05-07 13:49:18 UTC)
09:49<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r25227): Also update infrastructure counts. (adf88)
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10:35<Eddi|zuHause>__ln___: they even get EU funding for it
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11:23<Eddi|zuHause>"IT Crowd: Final episode will be produced"
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13:10<@planetmaker>V453000, with the tunnels, there's two places where the overlay sprites (the top) doesn't cover a single pixel. I indicated place in
13:11<@planetmaker>V453000, you can see that when you highlight the tile with, say, the tunnel build tool or bulldozer or so. Then a coloured pixel remains there
13:14<V453000>very strange
13:14<V453000>I took them from the landscape
13:14<V453000>can you link me to the used land sprites to be sure?
13:15<@planetmaker>try opengfx nightly
13:15<V453000>well sure, I can see what is wrong
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13:15<V453000>but if I took land sprites, it should behave the same way as sloped land
13:15<V453000>so apparently the ones I used were wrong
13:16<@planetmaker>maybe previous ones have that issue already... dunno, didn't check :D
13:17<V453000>but then landscape wouldh have such issue too
13:17<V453000>where can I find the used landscape sprites?
13:18<V453000>it is easy, all I need to do is to replace the landscape layer ... but I need the correct one to do that
13:20<@planetmaker>the rail tunnels have the same issue
13:22<@planetmaker>in ogfx-landscape repo:
13:22<@planetmaker>that should contain most ground sprites
13:22<@planetmaker>I won't bet my life on 'all' though :-)
13:24<@planetmaker>hm, do I dare make ogfx-landscape compatible with trunk only? :D
13:25<@planetmaker> <-- for object ground tiles :-)
13:26<V453000>hmm yeah ogfx-terrain is where I got them from
13:27<V453000>ogfx-terrain is gridless there though, isnt it
13:30<V453000>your screenshot has them with grid, is the problem appearing in both cases?
13:31<@planetmaker>If you took the tunnel sprites from opengfx somewhere you'll have that issue, I think
13:32<@planetmaker>you might want to compare the front (lower) slopes of the sprites of those with the normal sloped ground tile. Maybe there's a pixel difference somewhere?
13:32<V453000>I just do not understand how can there be a shape mismatch if I just duplicated the sloped land sprites
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13:32<V453000>I cloned them from the ground tiles, not tunnel sprites
13:32<V453000>it is ground sprite + tunel layer + road layer
13:34<@planetmaker>Only the sprite without the road has this issue; the sprite which is drawn on the vehicles
13:34<@planetmaker>not the tunnel ground sprite
13:34<@planetmaker>I would think
13:35<V453000>their shape is exactly the same :s
13:35<@planetmaker>hm, strange then
13:35<V453000>minus the "missing" part ofc
13:37<V453000>ha, found 1 pixel actually
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13:40<V453000>is the issue only 1 pixel though?
13:42<frosch123>don't lick the sprites
13:42<frosch123>they may lose pixels
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13:43<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25232 /trunk/src/lang (german.txt lithuanian.txt) (2013-05-07 17:45:13 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>german - 9 changes by Jogio
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 1 changes by Stabilitronas
13:50<V453000>sec it is uploading :)
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13:54<@planetmaker>lol. I also found the grid issue ;-)
13:54<@planetmaker>simply referencing the gridded version of the file :-P
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13:57<@planetmaker>NoCAB started to populate my test map :D
13:58<@planetmaker>hi Wolf01
13:59<@planetmaker>hm, V453000 ... err no 8bpp palette ?
14:00<V453000>oh damn
14:00<V453000>will do
14:05<V453000>k, there again
14:05<V453000>guess you might want to delete the other six :P
14:05<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
14:05<@planetmaker>they have time stamps :-)
14:09<@planetmaker> <-- result @ V453000
14:10<@planetmaker>looks very nice to me :-)
14:13<@planetmaker>V453000, the psd source does not change, it's just a different export?
14:30<V453000>it changes by 8 pixels ... :)
14:30<V453000>palette changes only on export
14:47<V453000>result looks good to me :)
14:47<V453000>no fat road parameter though :P
14:47<V453000>*fat tunnel
14:48<@planetmaker>so totally untrue :-P
14:48<@planetmaker>just brot is slow ;-)
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15:19<George>when I copy the train why does it copies the age?
15:20<George>the train has cargo_subtype_text CB, that returns several value first 10 days of life and fails later
15:21<George>I have a train that was refited
15:21<George>when I copy it I get the train not refited (like CB fails)
15:22<Supercheese>which variable are you using? age_in_days?
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15:22<Supercheese>or not that at all?
15:22<George>if I pause a game, build a new train, refit it and then copy the new train, the copy is refited
15:22<George>but if i wait 11 days and copy it again, the new copy IS NOT refited
15:23<Supercheese>very odd
15:23<Supercheese>does the subtype callback use any variables like age_in_days ?
15:23<George>switch (FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, _4te10s_cargo_subtype_text,
15:23<George> cargo_subtype + ((age_in_days >= 30) && (num_vehs_in_consist >= 3)) * 2
15:23<George> )
15:23<George> 0: string(STR_REFIT_HEAD);
15:23<George> 1: string(STR_REFIT_BUSTER);
15:23<George> return CB_RESULT_NO_TEXT;
15:23<Supercheese>I recall the age_in_days variable being very weird when I tried to use it
15:24<__ln___>how did i end up in the pastebin?
15:24<George>And what to do?
15:25<Supercheese>I'm not sure, someone more qualified than I seems necessary
15:26<Supercheese>could check the source though
15:27<@planetmaker>that's a very weired condition for the cargo subtype text :-)
15:28<Supercheese>irrespective of weirdness, I suspect there's something odd with the age variable in OTTD
15:28<Supercheese>OTTD + NML anyway
15:29<frosch123>when cloning or autoreplacing or autorefitting or whatever, ottd picks the subtype with the same text
15:29<@planetmaker>I don't know the callbacks... ^
15:29<frosch123>if you change the text over time you totally break it
15:29<frosch123>can't help you with that
15:29<frosch123>subtype is not meant to change over time
15:30<frosch123>subtypes are not a general display random data thingie
15:30<Supercheese>It still begs the question why the 10 days bit, when the code only is supposed to change at 30 days
15:31<George>a question wwas asked while the code was changed
15:31<George>just copied the undone code
15:31<George>because the code with 10 days and without consist length chek did not work
15:32<Supercheese>I guess the conclusion is that cargo subtype should only change when refitting, and not due to other factors, eh
15:33<George>frosch123: And how can code that the cargo subtype text would be uncanged inside the train?
15:33<George>so onle a single loco can change the subtype text
15:33<George>and then be placed in the consist&
15:35<George>what I want to do:
15:35<frosch123>maybe use the start stop check
15:35<frosch123>or just leave it to the player
15:35<George>how can that help?
15:36<George>What I try to code:
15:36<frosch123>no idea, i don't understand the intention in the first place
15:36<frosch123>what's the point of all these conditions? are you coding a railroad history quiz?
15:36<George>A player buys a loco, refits it (to boosted variant) and attaches it
15:36<frosch123>the player, who builds 100 valid trains, wins?
15:36<George>it can be attached only in a special place of a train
15:37<George>in case it would become refited inside consist the train would be brocken
15:37<Supercheese>why the age in days check then?
15:38<George>Yes, I build a historical train
15:38<Supercheese>shouldn't the consist check work by itself?
15:38<@planetmaker>George, make the historical consist one articulated vehicle
15:38<@planetmaker>so one-click buy. Done
15:38<@planetmaker>and make the other trains work no-matter-what
15:39<Supercheese>alternatively that, or another easier way
15:39<Supercheese>easier than current, I think planetmaker's idea is easiest overall
15:40<George>Sorry, but I'm not looking for a way not to code the feature :) I'm looking for a way to code it
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15:40<George>From the historical point of view in the later years these trains were split and used as parts
15:40<Supercheese>Still, I don't understand the age check
15:41<George>so articulated vehicle is not a solution
15:41<Supercheese>Well, you could also code it as a separate engine and disable its power/whatnot when it's not in a certain place in the consist
15:41<Supercheese>that would also let you set independent intro/retire dates
15:42<George>Yes, I can code it on a separate ID
15:42<George>But I need exect days of build feature then
15:42<frosch123>you can make the back part draw depending on the front part
15:42<frosch123>the japanese trains do that
15:43<frosch123>you refit the front to a specific series/colour
15:43<frosch123>and the other vehicles in the chain take it from the front
15:43<frosch123>that allows easy moving of vehicles around in the depot
15:43<frosch123>without the need to refit every single vehicle
15:43<@planetmaker>good point
15:43<George>This is the way it was coded before
15:43<George>very bad idea
15:44<Supercheese>bad because...?
15:44<frosch123>anyway, japanese trains are currently somewhat broken in trunk, so test it with 1.3 :)
15:44<George>because the train part magicaly transforms when being attached
15:44<Supercheese>as opposed to magically transform when refit>
15:45<George>that is why I'm asking about haw to prevent refit problem on train coping
15:46<Supercheese>well, several suggestions have been fielded
15:47<George>currently I saw only 2 - code on the other ID and not to code
15:47<George>Missed something?
15:47<@planetmaker>yes. draw vehicle depending on front vehicle
15:48<George>it is not a solution
15:48<George>It is an issue (bug) I'm trying to fix)
15:48<@planetmaker>honestly, Japanese trains is one of my favourite sets: Ease of use, nice choice of vehicles
15:49<George>xUSSR set would not be easy to use :)))
15:49<Supercheese>wouldn't removing the age check help?
15:49<Supercheese>I still don't know why that's there
15:50<George>Supercheese: No, it does not work either
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15:50<George>just because of the resons frosch123 wrote above
15:51<@planetmaker>what's the point to allow refitting vehicles one-by-one but then disallowing to assemble trains from them?
15:51<@planetmaker>that's what I understood how this is going to be used...
15:51<George>because it is checked with CB 1D and allows only sertan combinations of locos
15:52<George>with refit inside consist it would become broken
15:52<@planetmaker>sorry, that reads like "the wall is green because I painted it green"
15:53<George>historical set is historical
15:53<George>Someone wrote the history already
15:53<George>I can repat in code and not repeat
15:53<George>there are no other solutions
15:53<@planetmaker>a historical set should only allow articulated vehicles, so that only the vehicles like they were built then, can be built
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>George: what frosch123 said is that it runs the text callback for both existing and new vehicle, it fails for the existing vehicle, so the new one can't take the existing refit
15:53<@planetmaker>no refit. no nothing
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>George: so the "solution" is to make the callback in a way that doesn't fail with the existing vehicle
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15:55<Eddi|zuHause>(at least that's how i understand it)
15:55<George>that means use other ID
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>or implement "vehicle views" that are set on purchase and can't be changed afterwards
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15:57<George>Eddi|zuHause: and how are they set on purchase?
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15:57<Eddi|zuHause>view selection buttons like for stations/objects/...
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>MB had a mockup somewhere
15:58<George>and where are they for trains?
15:58<Supercheese>source code patch
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>they are not implemented yet
15:58<Supercheese>not really a good suggestion for a newgrf author :S
15:59<@planetmaker>cb36 with property 25 might help there
16:01<@planetmaker>or maybe not
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16:02<George>Eddi|zuHause: and how would I choose what to set to prop 25?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what prop25 is
16:03<@Rubidium>some californian law to vote on?
16:03<George>Eddi|zuHause: sorry, the question was to planetmaker
16:03<@planetmaker>I can't know what cases you need distinguish or so.
16:04<@planetmaker>but looking of where it can be queried it likely is useless anyway
16:04<Supercheese>hah, ballot measures :P
16:04<George>currently I try to choose by refit optin (they are named so the player knows what he selects)
16:05<@planetmaker>choose what by refit option?
16:05<George>is it boosted or not
16:06<@planetmaker>good. So once refit to that, it's fine. It has a cargo sub-type. No need to further check for it except in the can-be-attached callback?
16:08<George>but if a player refits it
16:08<George>then attaches it
16:08<George>and than refits again
16:08<George>we get a wrong locos order
16:09<@planetmaker>disallow refit in that case
16:09<George>because CB 1D is not recalled on refit
16:09<George>planetmaker: how?
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>there is a refit callback
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>where you can check position in consist and current and future refit subtype
16:10<George>yes and f I fail it in consist a copy of a train gets defaul value instead of refited value
16:10<Supercheese>Oh yeah, I did that for fake subways
16:10<Supercheese>check the difference between current and proposed subtype
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>George: i still don't quite understand the problem you are trying to model
16:12<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, you may couple together black engines. But once coupled together, you may not paint them red again (like they were before you painted them black)
16:13<@planetmaker>thus he wants to forbid the red paint bucket, if two black engines are coupled
16:13<@planetmaker>but wants to allow it, if the black engine is alone in the shed
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16:14<George>planetmaker: correct
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, here is the old discussion on "views"
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16:36<@Terkhen>good night
16:47<@Alberth>good night T
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17:13<Wolf01>good night too
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17:15<Eddi|zuHause>nights are overrated
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---Logclosed Wed May 08 00:00:55 2013