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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-05-10

---Logopened Fri May 10 00:00:57 2013
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02:13<@planetmaker>@ports
02:13<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
02:13<V453000>iz a lie, firs has ports
02:13<@planetmaker>stooopid lies indeed
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02:50<argonel>i took a look at the wiki todo list and came up with this: http://wstaw.org/m/2013/05/10/plasma-desktopFs4776.png - beyond the abused strings, does this seem like a good direction?
02:54<@planetmaker>argonel, is there a reason to not want any of the explicit orders?
02:55<argonel>planetmaker: well, fs4540 has a sample with more than a screen's height of implicit orders
02:55<@planetmaker>of course. I do not talk about the implicit orders. Toggling those makes sense
02:55<argonel>heh sorry, is late here
02:56<argonel>planetmaker: i don't know of any reason to not have the explicit orders, but i didn't want to make a dropdown with only one item in it
02:56<@planetmaker>and what does your screenshot look like when the drop-down is collapsed? Do I know my current choice of visible elements?
02:57<argonel>it's true that it doesn't provide any "current state" feedback, however the state is per window instance
02:57<@planetmaker>what about a two-state switch where the text can remain on the button:
02:58<@planetmaker>Explicit orders
02:58<@planetmaker>All orders
02:58<argonel>sounds reasonable
02:59<argonel>planetmaker: do you have an opinion on the implicit orders lacking a number?
02:59<@planetmaker>that makes sense. If you use conditional orders, you use order numbers there. As implicit orders change, it would break other wise conditional orders
03:00<@planetmaker>i.e.: giving implict orders a number breaks conditional orders.
03:00<@planetmaker>Or so I believe without looking at code
03:01<@planetmaker>at least changing numbers of the explicit orders would pose a hassle in the UI: imagine the order number changing while you give orders
03:03<V453000>problem is, when you get into trouble with implicit orders, you probably already have 255 of them
03:03<V453000>which means you need to remove them, hiding is of course nice, but still does not help with order editing
03:04<V453000>if there could be a way to disable them entirely, that would be absolutely splendid
03:04<@planetmaker>yes. That's true. But a slightly different problem :-)
03:04<V453000>sure, but it is very related, and the "real" fix to the issue
03:04<argonel>hmm, i could add a "flush implicit orders" action
03:04<@planetmaker>I would not disable them. But I would add a button like 'clear implicit orders'
03:04<argonel>^
03:04<V453000>or at least that :)
03:05<argonel>you want that as another button?
03:05<@planetmaker>disabling them entirely is pointless, I think. It's a visual feedback of vehicles unscheduled past station visits after all
03:05<V453000>I guess adding it to a dropdown does not really make sense
03:05<@planetmaker>probably a new button makes sense, yes
03:05<@Rubidium>V453000: use non-stop orders as default and you won't get those implicit ones
03:06<argonel>i was hoping to be able to make the Show button smaller so that it wouldn't consume so much of the titlebar, but i'm not quite certain how to do that yet :)
03:06<V453000>Rubidium: I do, but in some cases you do want to use stop orders
03:06<@planetmaker>argonel, by using concise but still clear wording :-P
03:06<@planetmaker>(I don't see how to make it smaller either)
03:06<V453000>in which case you are well aware that trains could stop elsewhere and do not want to get "informed" by implicit orders
03:06<@planetmaker>use the 'hide' option then :-)
03:07<@planetmaker>the selection of 'hide' vs. 'show' as argonel shows could be universal
03:07<@planetmaker>client-side variable
03:07<@Rubidium>oh, you mean: "do not use implicit order, and disable cargod[ie]st" ;)
03:07<V453000>hide is okay but the problem is when you need to really look at the order, you probably also need to edit them. If there are 255 and constantly generating (possibly very quickly with many trains) orders, it makes it impossible to edit without stopping all trains to prevent the creation of new
03:08<argonel>sounds like that limit needs to be raised :)
03:08<V453000>not really, it would fill any limit sooner or later
03:09<V453000>hm I did not know about relevance to cargodist, but still ... okay, the option could be only for non-cargodist games
03:09<@planetmaker>V453000, 100% relevance
03:09<@planetmaker>without them it cannot work at all
03:09<V453000>sure, I just wasnt aware
03:09<argonel>fonsinchen mentions cargodist in the br, where he indicates he doesn't want this in the gui at all
03:10<V453000>which does not put aside the problem that implicit orders are massively disruptive anytime you use stop orders on purpose
03:10*Rubidium reckons that more than 50% of what used to be in the cargodist patches has already been committed to trunk
03:10<@planetmaker>even then they're not disruptive really. Only in a few edge cases
03:11<argonel>i'm at a bit of a disadvantage, i don't know what cargodist is :)
03:11<@planetmaker>:-) doesn't exactly matter here, argonel. But a (future) extension which gives cargos upon pickup a destination it wants to be delivered to
03:11<V453000>edge cases are every time you use any idea or sort of self-regulation .... and note that this does not mean complex srnw, but anything along the lines of people releasing trains to visit whatever station they want, can be in town networks etc
03:12<@planetmaker>V453000, self-regulation is playing the system. It is itself VERY edge-case
03:13<V453000>it is playing the game
03:13<V453000>if edge case means using all game features, yes it is edge case
03:13<@Rubidium>self regulating doesn't need orders at all, right?
03:13<V453000>not true
03:13<@planetmaker>it needs orders. But only one, Rubidium
03:13<@Rubidium>how can it be self regulating then?
03:13<V453000>in fact most modern self regulation does use various amount of orders, from one to ~many
03:14<@planetmaker>Rubidium, by using signaling. And a feed-back look
03:14<V453000>that depends on how it is made
03:14<@planetmaker>s/look/loop/
03:14<V453000>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/SRNW very updated page, if you want to see latest progress there
03:14<@Rubidium>planetmaker: but if you *order* it to do something, it's not *self* regulating anymore
03:15<V453000>most notably single unreachable waypoint which is an order train never reaches, but due to pathfinding towards the waypoint trains can be guided to go to the right directions
03:15<V453000>in which case implicit orders never reset
03:15<argonel>so iiuc there's a problem where implicit orders are added while you're trying to work on the list, which could result in being unable to add another order? and they could be added at a rate where a "clear implicit orders" action could still leave an uneditable orders list?
03:16<@planetmaker>argonel, yes, in rare cases that can happen. Then it's a PITA
03:16<V453000>exactly
03:16<V453000>if you have 1500 shared order trains, implicit orders can appear at incredible rate
03:16<@planetmaker>but I doubt that it would be spawned at a rate that a general "clear implicit orders" button would not suffice
03:17<V453000>it would suffice in order not to make the list full, but that does not mean it would suffice for sane editing
03:17<argonel>so lets say that implicit orders are hidden, how about having the add order actions causing a clear?
03:17<@planetmaker>solution probably would to disallow filling orders list completely by implicit orders and keeping always one free slot for manual ones
03:18<V453000>in combination with hiding, yes
03:18<V453000>that would indeed be a valid solution ... did not think of that :) good idea
03:18<@planetmaker>argonel, however, the hiding/showing of the implicit orders is one problem. Totally unrelated to this IMHO. Thus need be a separate patch in any case
03:19<@planetmaker>maybe not totally. But still distinct ;-)
03:19<argonel>planetmaker: hmm, imo this problem causes a surprising behaviour
03:19<@planetmaker>I would not mind, if you address this one, too, of course :-)
03:19<@planetmaker>argonel, what's causing surprising behaviour?
03:20<@planetmaker>not filling the orders entirely by implicit ones?
03:20<argonel>order list filling while implicit orders are hidden
03:20<@planetmaker>I don't think it would
03:20<@planetmaker>where does it hurt?
03:20<argonel>then you go to add an order and can't, even though the box apparently shows enough room
03:20<@planetmaker>yes. But you chose explicitly "hide implicit"
03:21<@planetmaker>it's like "I don't see houses" - "oh, you disabled showing houses"
03:21<argonel>btw, my patch does not renumber the orders, it lies about the order number in the gui
03:21<V453000>I agree with pm there
03:21<@Rubidium>alternatively one implicit order is sacrifised ("at random") for an explicit order
03:21<@planetmaker>uh. hm. argonel test that with conditional orders then
03:22<@planetmaker>it will be a pain to not be able to tell where to jump to
03:22<@planetmaker>Rubidium, yes.
03:22<argonel>planetmaker: ok, i'll add that to the todo list
03:22<argonel>i've had to copy stuff from all over the place for the PoC
03:23<@planetmaker>easy test setup: train line with two mines and a power plant or steel mill (depends on mine):
03:23<@planetmaker>set train to unload at power plant
03:23<@planetmaker>goto mine 1
03:24<@planetmaker>if load% > 80 goto 1
03:24<@planetmaker>goto mine 2
03:24<@planetmaker>thus return to power plant, if (nearly) full. otherwise also pickup from other mine
03:24<@planetmaker>and add a few other mines on the line
03:24<@planetmaker>or stations in general. need not be mines
03:24<@planetmaker>use goto orders, not goto non-stop
03:25<Supercheese>I should make my seagull newobjects go "mine mine mine mine mine"
03:25<Supercheese>:P
03:25<@planetmaker>:-P
03:25<argonel>haha
03:25<Supercheese>New April Fool's/OTTD 1.4.0 joke
03:25<Supercheese>:D
03:25<@planetmaker>hm... Supercheese what do you think of adding those to ogfx-landscape?
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03:25<Supercheese>What license is it?
03:25<@planetmaker>gpl v2+
03:26<Supercheese>Probably won't work, the sprites are derived from another game's
03:26<@planetmaker>ah, k. pity
03:26<Supercheese>I don't think that'd be compatible with GPL
03:26<Supercheese>In fact, MB had the exact same idea I did many years ago
03:26<Supercheese>he had some seagulls derived from the same sprites
03:26<@planetmaker>?
03:27<Supercheese>lemme dig the post
03:27<V453000>Supercheese: 1st April is the only day when the real serious newGRFs are introduced :P
03:27<@planetmaker>oh, so same source, eh? :-)
03:27<Supercheese>yep
03:27<Supercheese>Apparently the New cargo types (v0.12) grf
03:28<Supercheese>http://www.ttdpatch.net/newgrf/201/newcargow.zip
03:28<Supercheese>Fishing grounds has same seagulls
03:28<@planetmaker>cargo: sea gull? :-p
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03:29<Supercheese>sprites ≈60-76 it seems
03:30<@planetmaker>:-)
03:30<Supercheese>I never knew until he pointed out the striking similarity
03:30<Supercheese>great minds think alike? ;)
03:31<Supercheese>I'm giving myself too much credit, mb's been at this for years and produces damn fine grfs
03:31<Supercheese>I wouldn't be "great" in comparison :P
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03:32<@planetmaker>great. not great. It just matters what people actually do. A single deed is not lesser or more due to a person's past.
03:34<V453000>thee deed shall perform newgrf mayhem causing process in
03:36<argonel>planetmaker: yeah, so indeed i have to tell the same lie on conditional orders
03:36<Supercheese>anyway, Fairey Rotodyne .grf, should the Rotodyne cruise level or nose down slightly? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Rotodyne
03:37<Supercheese>would be easy-ish to make nose-down renders, but less work to have it cruise level
03:38<@planetmaker>:-) Depends on your personal judgement of where to draw the line to tmwftlb
03:38<argonel>http://wstaw.org/m/2013/05/10/plasma-desktopuV4776.png
03:38<Supercheese>I love the way Av8 does helicopters
03:38<Supercheese>But of course the rotodyne is not your average helicopter
03:38<@planetmaker>argonel, I'd put the current selection in the button title
03:38<@planetmaker>Show: All
03:38<@planetmaker>Show: Explicit
03:38<@planetmaker>but looks good
03:38<argonel>i haven't gotten around to adding strings yet
03:39<@planetmaker>ah :-) k
03:39<@planetmaker>are time tables gone?
03:39<argonel>gone?
03:40<argonel>oh i see, implicit orders have implicit timetable items
03:40<@planetmaker>I meant the timetable button. But I didn't yet think about the interaction with time tabling
03:41<argonel>no, the timetable button is there, i just clipped that last screenshot
03:41<argonel>at the moment timetable mode doesn't have a show button
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04:01<argonel>planetmaker: do i need to worry about the order list changing while in DrawWidget?
04:02<@planetmaker>well. The current client might not be the only one to modify order list
04:02<@planetmaker>but those events should invalidate the window data
04:03<argonel>hmm. is there a lock i can hold?
04:04<@planetmaker>no, you cannot.
04:04<argonel>hmm
04:04<@planetmaker>otherwise the drawing of the window would stop the game
04:04<@planetmaker>hm... but I wonder whether that's an issue... I'm not exactly sure about scheduling of events
04:04<@planetmaker>don't worry about that for now
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04:08<@Alberth>moin
04:09<@planetmaker>hi Alberth
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04:12<@Alberth>one of the great things about a (mostly) single threaded application is that no other threads cause havoc in data you're processing
04:12<@planetmaker>was about to ask you ^
04:14<argonel>excellent
04:14<@Alberth>So you may be drawing a list that is obsolete at the server, but the change event is still in the pipeline to the list.
04:15<@Alberth>when it arrives the window will be invalidated as PM said, and you draw it again
04:22<argonel>hmm, you can set a conditional to go to an implicit rule
04:22<@planetmaker>oh lala. Sounds like a bear trap
04:23<@planetmaker>personally I consider that as a bug
04:24<@planetmaker>maybe even with the potential to crash... at least when the idea to remove an implicit order in favour of a manual one is implemented
04:26<argonel>it seems that if there's a conditional jump, implicit orders are not added
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04:41<Supercheese>good night
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05:12<argonel>er, sometimes
05:13<@Rubidium>argonel/planetmaker: during DrawWidget the orders can't change (unless you do something stupid in the order list window code)
05:14<@Rubidium>(stupid like changing orders)
05:14<argonel>Rubidium: thanks for the confirmation, i wasn't sure how multithreaded it is
05:15<argonel>it seems jumps inhibit implicit orders unless there's a depot in the orders
05:16<@Rubidium>OpenTTD is in theory multithreaded, but in practice not as much as people would like
05:17<@Rubidium>the game loop, with all game logic like handling commands (building stuff etc) and progressing in time, and the drawing to memory are done sequentially for every tick
05:17<@Rubidium>in a parallel loop the memory that is drawn to is pushed to the video card
05:18<@Rubidium>in another parallel loop the sound playback is done
05:19<@Rubidium>in yet another parallel thread the savegame *compressions* are done (creating a memory clone is done in the main loop, and that's the short hiccup with large game states; the slower progression of time on single core is the compression)
05:20<@Rubidium>then there's also a thread spawned for every DNS lookup (these can take a while, to it's somewhat fire and let the callback handle the remaining things that need to be done)
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05:21<@Rubidium>for cargodist there's also a (number of?) thread(s?) that calculates the distribution graph
05:22<@Rubidium>and before someone comes with the great idea that the game loop can be multithreaded; all vehicles depend on some place or another on eachother. If you multithread, then those interactions must happen in the same order in ALL imaginable cases (due to network play)
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05:24<@Rubidium>for example, doing train and road vehicle movements next to eachother. Imagine two threads; one for trains and one for road vehicles. Furthermore a road vehicle is about to be crashed on a level crossing
05:24<@peter1138>everyone loves desyncs
05:25<@Rubidium>on single core computer A the train thread runs before the road vehicle thread. Train #2 moves, goes over the road vehicle and splut... dead road vehicle occupants
05:26<@Rubidium>on dual core computer B the train thread and road vehicle thread run in parallel. While train #1 is moved, the road vehicle that train #2 crashes in on computer A moves off the level crossing. Now train #2 moves and noone dies
05:27<@Alberth>looks like wiki page material :)
05:30<argonel>Alberth: a condensed version is already there
05:30<@Alberth>k
05:31<argonel>although someone wrote a comment starting with "This is a naive way of thinking about multithreading support" in response
05:38<@planetmaker>got a link to that page, argonel ?
05:39<argonel>planetmaker: http://wiki.openttd.org/Rejected_features#Multithread.2FMulticore_support
05:39<@Alberth>people have a hard time understanding that a simulated world and real world are very different things
05:40<@planetmaker>ty
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05:41<@planetmaker>Alberth, simulation and threading does not exclude eachother. Deterministicallity kills it
05:43<@Alberth>I believe people interpret the OpenTTD in the same way as they experience the real world, ie many independent vehicles. Then they find it is not implemented that way, and are flabbergasted by it
05:43<@planetmaker>yeah :-)
05:44<@planetmaker>if you don't know how something work, assume it works like you know from somewhere else :-)
05:44<@Alberth>no way you're going to explain to these people this is technically the best solution
05:45<@Alberth>which thus leads to the inevitable conclusion that devs are idiots :p
05:45<@planetmaker>:-P
05:46<@peter1138>ah "computationally expensive algorithms"
05:46<@peter1138>intensive, rather
05:46<@peter1138>we don't really have that
05:46<@peter1138>it's just very many lots of tiny ones
05:47<@Alberth>just add YACD :p
05:47<@Alberth>but then it's so big you run out of CPU time very fast :)
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05:48<@planetmaker>that's where a client-server architecture with calculations server-side would be handy. On the cost of HUGE traffic
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05:49<@Alberth>I still believe we are doing something wrong there, you should be able to re-use results from previous computations
05:49<@Alberth>or do things in a more incremental way
05:50<@planetmaker>in path finding?
05:50<@planetmaker>or...?
05:50<@Alberth>path finding cargo packets afaik
05:51<@planetmaker>like a check "route still exists ? re-use old : calculate new" ?
05:51<@Alberth>I wish I knew :)
05:51<@planetmaker>but that only pushes the problem... to keep a network of possible connections for all stations
05:53<@Alberth>having mis-routed cargo for a while is not a real problem imho, so you may be able to trade speed against accuracy in some way
05:53<@Alberth>eg do constant route calculations (a small part at every tick) and update every now and then
05:54<@Alberth>or do incremental routing, ie "take that train in the right direction" is all you need to know at a given station, computing the entire path is quite wasteful
05:55<@Alberth>but alas, you need the latter to get the former :(
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06:39<@Rubidium>Alberth: there's one major problem with "route still exists ? reuse old : calculate new". It doesn't do balancing, so anything with feedbacks like link saturation calculations won't work
06:40<@Rubidium>which'll cause many "bug reports" of the like: that link A-B-C is way over its capacity, so I build a new route direction A-C but it does not use that link
06:40<@Alberth>true
06:41<@Alberth>which seems like an opportunity to trade optimality against speed
06:41<@planetmaker>:-)
06:43<@Rubidium>also... the real world... that's just bullshit. If I understand quantum mechanics correctly, stuff exists in two states and upon interaction (bumping, looking, whatever) one state is forced. However, this could imply that both states exists and one state is just thrown away (or viewed as if it were a whole new universe)
06:44<@Rubidium>so the reason it works in "the real world" is because you are *effectively* in single player; there is no second universe trying to do the exact same things
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06:47<@Alberth>:)
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07:47<__ln__>http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/110487/my-customer-wants-me-to-record-a-video-of-how-i-develop-his-software-product
07:54<frosch123>let's add that to our patch review process
07:55<@peter1138>nice
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09:19<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/curvy_rivers.png
09:24<szaman>beautiful
09:25<@Alberth>tasty!
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09:27<@planetmaker>available when DevZone's compile farm runs tonight :-)
09:28<@planetmaker>currently only in ogfx+landscape. But eventually I'll port / copy it to OpenGFX itself
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10:31*Alberth cheats and builds a trunk version
10:31<@planetmaker>:D
10:32<@planetmaker>I can make it easier for you... devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/ogfx-landscape.tar
10:32<@planetmaker>^ Alberth
10:32<@Terkhen>hello
10:32<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
10:32<@Terkhen>that screenshot is awesome :)
10:32<oskari89>planetmaker: The rivers?
10:32<@planetmaker>yes
10:32<oskari89>:))
10:33<@Alberth>thanks
10:33<@planetmaker>needs gimp to build currently :-)
10:33<@Alberth>I have gimp :)
10:33<@planetmaker>and creating all those pngs also takes a bit time
10:33<oskari89>planetmaker: Those rivers in current trunk?
10:33<@planetmaker>in ogfx-landscape
10:33<oskari89>Ok
10:33<@planetmaker>they will be in opengfx
10:34<@planetmaker>I will not modify TTD sprites
10:34<oskari89>Ok
10:34<@Alberth>I have time, I have to edit a bit of Python code anyway :)
10:34<@planetmaker>if I created TTD sprites I'd never be allowed to distribute them anyway. So pointless
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10:41<@Alberth>it helps if you enable rivers when generating a new game :p
10:44<@planetmaker>quite :-P
10:57<@Alberth>hmm, the refit window has an 'unfold' graphic even if there is just one option
10:58<frosch123>tricky
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10:59<frosch123>i think currently it display only those refit options which apply to all wagons
11:00<frosch123>while the parent node always mean "keep current subtype"
11:00<frosch123>but, well, the former thing needs to change anyway
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11:12<@Belugas>hello
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11:29<@Alberth>hello
11:30<@planetmaker>hello bb10
11:30<@planetmaker>hm... hello Belugas :-)
11:40<@Belugas>hehehe
11:40<@Belugas>hello sir :)
11:40<@Belugas>in fact... hello sirs
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13:36<oskari89>What is the timezone of OpenTTDcoop?
13:37<oskari89>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/finnishtrainset/nightlies/
13:37<oskari89>-1 UTC?
13:39<frosch123>unlikely
13:39<frosch123>it's either utc, utc+2 or your local time
13:40<frosch123>it's utc
13:40<frosch123>if it shows 17:19 for r122
13:41<frosch123>brot posted it at 17:19 utc in #openttdcoop.devzone
13:43<oskari89>Ok
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25233 trunk/src/lang/galician.txt (2013-05-10 17:45:48 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>galician - 15 changes by Michi
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14:02<alluke>evening
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14:08<@Alberth>o/
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14:18<alluke>@juzza1
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14:22<@planetmaker>oskari89, CET
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14:22<@planetmaker>or CEST
14:23<@planetmaker>(i.e. local time Germany)
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15:01<@Rubidium>oh noes... the world has ended
15:02<__ln__>you're mistaken; http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/
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15:18<Supercheese>Forums are deeeaaaad
15:18<Supercheese>D:
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15:32<ZxBiohazardZx>would it be possible to auto-update client to latest stable?
15:32<ZxBiohazardZx>aka stable -> stable when released
15:33<ZxBiohazardZx>similar to the blizzard streamline launchers: check on a remote server if there is a newer version and update the version to that version after a prompt?
15:33<Supercheese>there's an ottd autoupdater, no?
15:33<Supercheese>3rd-party-ish
15:34<Supercheese>oh crap forums are dead
15:34<Supercheese>http://users.tt-forums.net/ottdau/
15:37<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah something like that
15:37<Supercheese>I used it a while ago and it worked well, I haven't used it lately though since I compile custom versions
15:37<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah
15:38<ZxBiohazardZx>most games either update themselfs or warn user they have outdated version & suggest updating before playing
15:38<ZxBiohazardZx>same for steam games, blizzard games, latest activision stuff
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15:38<Supercheese>most singleplayer games I play don't have auto-update-checking
15:38<ZxBiohazardZx>most of it warns you ingame that new content is available :P
15:38<V453000>openttd isnt most games :P
15:38<ZxBiohazardZx>ottd is both single and multiplayer :P
15:38<Supercheese>you have to manually check for updates for them, but yeah most online games do autocheck and autoupdate
15:38<ZxBiohazardZx>true
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15:52<@orudge>Supercheese: they're not dead, they're just resting
15:52<@orudge>also being upgraded
15:52<Supercheese>new phpbb or some such?
15:52<@orudge>new Debian version more like
15:52<@orudge>:)
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15:54<@planetmaker>wheezy is nice
15:54<@planetmaker>though it bitched on this machine. But worked flawless on my other out-of-box
16:11<V453000>lets go spam random shit on forums again \o/
16:13<Supercheese>huzzah
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16:39<tycoondemon>so how can I let a server start a random new game, with newgrf settings applied?
16:46<@Alberth>experiment, and write a few wiki text about it?
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16:58<tycoondemon>:O
17:00<alluke>@oskari89 im losing my mind thinking how to make the dv15 look less a shortened dv12
17:11<alluke>maybe make the hood lower or wider
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17:39*peter1138 mumbles about PDFs that the usual tools (on Linux) can't open.
17:40<@peter1138>Had to install the official-but-nobody-ever-uses-it Adobe Reader o_O
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18:11<Lord_Aro>Heyo, that works
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---Logclosed Sat May 11 00:00:59 2013