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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-05-14

---Logopened Tue May 14 00:00:05 2013
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03:50<@planetmaker>juzza1, wrt the railtype thing: could you prepare a minimal grf (nml+lng) which compiles and shows the issue so that I can easily toy a bit?
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07:31<George>How to get the last service day for a train?
07:32<George>or days since last service?
07:33<George>To be exact, I want to check, if the vehicle was serviced after specific date or not to choose a new livery
07:38<@planetmaker>juzza1: thanks, I got the test grf's zip
07:39<George>juzza1: thank you
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09:22<Ristovski>Hmm, why have I been banned from tt-forums?
09:22<Ristovski>The admin probably banned a ip range D:
09:24<Ristovski>planetmaker: Happen to know who the admin of tt-forums is?
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09:37<juzza1>you must've been very naughty
09:39<alluke>i thing the sm4 roofs need to be grey(er)
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09:39<alluke>hold on
09:43<alluke>compare to and
09:44<Ristovski>juzza1: I never posted anything/commented
09:44<Ristovski>so apart from reading posts, I haven't touched anything
09:46<George>when a train comes into depo, only the first engine gets date_of_last_service updated.
09:46<NGC3982>It does?
09:46<George>when a consist is split into vehicles, the other engines have date_of_last_service not updated
09:47<George>equal to day of build
09:48<George>is it a bug?
09:54<juzza1>alluke: those are ancient sprites... agreed that they could use some improvements
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09:56-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>so... now i have LED lights which say they last 15 years...
09:58<alluke>i also suggest renaming some cars
09:59<alluke>ive changed the ones marked with red dots
10:05<juzza1>alluke: those seem better than the current ones
10:05<juzza1>ill change later
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>George: this probably affects some other values that are "valid for front only"
10:05<George>Eddi|zuHause: And that?
10:06<George>if some properties can't be updated, than only some propertiers should be updated
10:07<George>date_of_last_service does not look like a property that can't be updated
10:09<juzza1>George: maybe use current_year instead
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>juzza1: the idea is that trains don't change livery while running on the track, only in depot.
10:10<George>juzza1: incorrect - vehicles will change the view on the fly instead of after depot
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>do vehicles have animation state or something?
10:10<George>Eddi|zuHause: the one I tested - no
10:11<juzza1>it was more of a response to the problem when vehicles not in front are not updated
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you can use the userbits
10:11<George>Eddi|zuHause: how?
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>set the userbit when the livery changes, and drawing checks only those
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't really looked into it yet, but likely i need some solution for that as well
10:12<@planetmaker>Ristovski, oruge is the person to talk to wrt tt-f
10:12<George>Eddi|zuHause: Incorrect. different engines in consist have different date for a chnge
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>George: well, the bits would be checked only vehicle-local
10:13<Ristovski>planetmaker: is he here on irc?
10:13<Ristovski>I mean, in w/e channel on w/e network
10:13<George>Eddi|zuHause: and how should they be set then?
10:13*planetmaker says nothing and waits for Ristovski to notice :D
10:14<Ristovski>planetmaker: I did notice, wasnt sure if it is him tho
10:16<@planetmaker>Ristovski, it might be a good idea though to send him an e-mail, though
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>George: i can't seem to find the userbits in the specs :/
10:17<@planetmaker>and explain the situation therein
10:17<Ristovski>planetmaker: Yeah, I might if he doesnt reply in query
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10:18<Eddi|zuHause>George: CB36, prop25
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10:19<alluke>is it possible to turn around articulated locos
10:19<alluke>via ctrl-click
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>George: not sure whether there's a way to read these bits for only the current vehicle, not the whole chain
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10:22<George>I also do not se a way to read current bit mask for an engine and or it with a new value when the front engine is got serviced
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>the current bits are supposed to be read by var42
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>but that is for the whole consist
10:24<alluke>juzza1: should there be a restriction that forces you to add an aggregate car if youre pulling ic cars with other locos than sr1/2, dr16?
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>George: the "easy" way would be if you could set "generations" that all vehicles will go through, then each bit would mean a different generation, and all vehicles in the chain will switch generation at the same time
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10:27<Eddi|zuHause>the more difficult way would be to introduce a new var that reads the userbits for the current vehicle
10:27<George>Eddi|zuHause: imho a better way be to fix a FS#5550 :)
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10:28<Eddi|zuHause>George: that would fix your symptom, but not the real problem :)
10:28<George>because I do not see any good reason why the first engine is servised and the second is not
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>George: the vehicle will be serviced on exiting the depot
10:29<George>The problem is the second engine IS not serviced
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>and why should it? the second engine doesn't break down, and has no speed, etc...
10:29<George>regardless entering or leaving depot
10:30<George>It has speed
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>you sure?
10:30<alluke>if the second engine breaks the train shouldnt stop
10:30<alluke>just lose the power and te of the loco
10:30<George>In case front engine is 100kmh and second is 80 km/h the consist goes 80 km/h max
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>George: that is max speed
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>George: i meant current speed
10:31<George>Eddi|zuHause: sorry, misunderstood you
10:31<George>alluke: that would be fine
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>if you want the current speed of the train, you must reference the front engine
10:31<George>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, I know
10:33<alluke>planetmaker: when will we see combined rail- and roadbridges in ottd? :P
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10:51<Eddi|zuHause>George: i do think your issue is an actual issue, but the proposed "solution" only works for your special case. for example i add a random interval to the livery change, but if i then split up a vehicle, it gets different random bits, so the same effect may appear
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>so the idea with using the userbits for permanent storage might be more flexible
10:53<George>I do not use random livery based on head engine yet, only on current engine
10:57<@planetmaker>juzza1, what's your username?
11:07<frosch123>what weird posts there are on the forums today
11:08<@planetmaker>anything in particular which you mean?
11:09<@planetmaker>to me it looked pretty normal. Also the noise level
11:09<frosch123>currently, the one in ttdp and the graphics job inquiry
11:10<@planetmaker>ah, graphics job... yes. I wonder(ed) actually whether it's spam. I decided to give it a shot without getting any high hopes
11:12<@planetmaker>I laughed quite a bit when I saw "Curse: Finishing Graphic Design". If it's a curse - why does he do it? ;-)
11:13<frosch123>well, i read it as "fishing graphic design" - wtf? :p
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11:31<Eddi|zuHause>George: i meant, i use the random bits of the front engine, so all vehicles of the chain will use the same livery
11:32<George>and when you move the second engine away from the consist it gets repaineted ;)
11:33<George>Not the thing I want to have in my set :D
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>and the other problem is that i cannot rerandomize this time, because if the random value is higher than before, it might change the livery back.
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>with the userbits/storage thing i could solve both
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>maybe a 60+ variable that can read any property?
11:36<@planetmaker>so... circular CB36? :-P
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11:37<@planetmaker>if power == 32 then power = 20 else power = 32 ;-)
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>hm... :)
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but CB36 is usually not called very often, so where is the problem? :)
11:39<@planetmaker>in the word "usually" ;-)
11:41<@planetmaker>in principle I agree with the idea, Eddi|zuHause. All I try to say is that there might be more or less hidden bear traps
11:42<@planetmaker>with circular stuff. and maybe with desyncs if not properly done.
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, it is circular already, you can set it by CB36 and read it by var42
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11:46<Eddi|zuHause>"the newspapers' 'please don't use adblock' campaign has resulted in +129% increased downloads of adblock and +167% more donations for adblock"
11:47<@planetmaker>source, Eddi|zuHause ?
11:49<@planetmaker>very nice
11:50<alluke>i have a test railway around the borders of the map
11:50<alluke>why is the diesel smoke brown
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>ask simon foster?
11:52<frosch123>why is the adblockplus twitter in german?
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>there's an english tweet as well
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11:57<@planetmaker>actually I allowed an exception for them. They have somewhat a point
11:58<frosch123>i am using a white-listing flash blocker
11:58<frosch123>it blocks all of the annoying stuff and uses way less resources than adblock
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>i just turn off flash...
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>and javascript
11:59<frosch123>i am using it too often
11:59<frosch123>for some reason html5 does not seem to be used
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>if i really need those, i open firefox
11:59<frosch123>though my old stable browser would likely not support it anyway
12:00<@planetmaker>alluke, ok. And...?
12:00<alluke>in ottd the smoke is brown
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12:02<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: my guess is it was meant to be different from the breakdown smoke
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: you can replace the sprites by actionA :)
12:04<frosch123>someone should code newsmoke :)
12:04<@planetmaker>NewEffectVehicles rather
12:05<@planetmaker>oh... how does OpenTTD decide on the shadow's shape?
12:05<frosch123>who uses disasters?
12:05<frosch123>planetmaker: it's just the same?
12:05<frosch123>but with transparancy effect
12:05<@planetmaker>same as what? the plane?
12:06<frosch123>it's a flat projection ofc :)
12:06<@planetmaker>a pity :-P No disk-shadow from a normal plane ;-)
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: NewEffectVehicle: a tractor roaming the fields of a farm :p
12:06<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that's NewFields
12:06<alluke>tried photohopiing the smoke into greyscale
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: only if you want to go insane from coordinating animation states
12:07<@planetmaker>alluke, that train only has a *very* slight alignment problem, no?
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>something tells me it would be easier with an effectvehicle
12:07<@planetmaker>maybe, yes, Eddi|zuHause
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: or MB's industrial/port railway
12:07<frosch123>i always hated games with pedestrians
12:08<frosch123>first thing which annoyed me about simutrans
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the powerplant smoke is already an effect vehicle
12:08<@planetmaker>"vehicle": pedestrian
12:08<@planetmaker>and bubbles
12:08<alluke>dont know about that
12:09<alluke>i took it just to test the smoke coloring
12:10<frosch123>[18:06] <planetmaker> a pity :-P No disk-shadow from a normal plane ;-) <- the sun in ttd is a broad laser btw :)
12:10<frosch123>the shadow traces the outline on scale 1:1
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12:11<@planetmaker>haha :-) yeah
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>do airplanes at cruising altitude cast a shadow at all?
12:13<@planetmaker>yes and no. They don't cover the whole disk of the sun
12:13<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the shadow of your fingers vanishes within 1 m distance or so
12:13<@planetmaker>thus they only dim light
12:15<frosch123>i would guess a plane stops casting a shadow around 2km altitude
12:16<@planetmaker>sure. But it's relatively easy to take such picture
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12:18<frosch123>most tricky part should be the light filter?
12:18<@planetmaker>light filter? To not over expose?
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12:19<@planetmaker>Not really needed if you take in the early morning or late evening hours
12:19<frosch123>well, i don't think you can save it with shorter exposure
12:19<@planetmaker>First 30 minutes after sun rise or last 30 minutes usually work
12:20<hmmm>mibbit says it is banned from oftc, couldn't join this chat using
12:21<hmmm>im using
12:22<@planetmaker> @ frosch123 And that's overexposed on the sun on purpose
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but it'd be difficult to catch a plane on cruising altitude in front of the sun at this angle :p
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12:24<@planetmaker>:-) difficult, yes
12:25<@planetmaker>but birds at cruising altitude (though also low sun):
12:25<@planetmaker>in a somewhat vain attempt to image Venus
12:26<hmmm>here's what I'm here for: I have gathered enough AI tests and took notes of those which I have considered stable
12:26<hmmm>is anyone interested?
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>venus is probably too small to show up on a photo?
12:26<@planetmaker>sure. You're aware of a few such test results in the AI sub-forums, hmm?
12:26<hmmm>i'm banned from the forum
12:27<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, it shows at a bit more magnification (which the lens is capable of)
12:27<@planetmaker>or in projection:
12:27<hmmm>the list is rather small
12:28<hmmm>so here goes
12:28<@planetmaker> is known to you, too?
12:29<hmmm>AdmiralAI (v25), survived 100 years in ten 100 years from 1950-2050
12:29<hmmm>ten out ten
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12:30<hmmm>AroAI (v127) - same
12:30<@planetmaker>IMHO feel free to make a page in the wiki about your test results. Especially the landscape and possibly NewGRF settings in order to obtain them can greatly influence the results
12:32<hmmm>Admiral (v25), AroAI (v127), Convoy (v11), DictatorAI (v169), MogulAI (v5900), OtviAI (v415), SimpleAI (v8) and Terron (v208) - they're the most stable AIs currently there, with all default settings
12:33<hmmm>freshly created openttd.cfg that is
12:33<hmmm>the others fail one way or another
12:33<@planetmaker>what about AIAI?
12:33<@planetmaker>or NoCAB?
12:33<hmmm>AIAI have errors in the script in some tests
12:33<@planetmaker>Terron... is something I personally don't have the most stable experience with
12:33<hmmm>I took note
12:34<@planetmaker>same with MogulAI actually
12:34<hmmm>- Vehicle (Sampson U52) construction failed with ERR_NOT_ENOUGH_CASH(message from AIAI::BuildVehicle), ERR_PRECONDITION_FAILED (before sign construction), engine: Sampson U52, last error is ERR_NONE, debug.nut error: division by zero
12:34<hmmm>that is my listing of AIAI errors
12:35<hmmm>- Too many vehicles on this route!, Empty AIVehicleList_Station, Invalid vehicle, aftercheck4 1314, last error is ERR_NONE debug.nut error: division by zero
12:35<@planetmaker>does that make them crash?
12:35<hmmm>and the most common one from AIAI is:
12:35<hmmm>- Builder.nut error: the index "Count" does not exist
12:35<@planetmaker>^^ indeed. I recall seeing that
12:36<hmmm>NoCAB doesn't error out
12:36<hmmm>but it has a severe train management bug very late in the game
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12:36<hmmm>it tries to upgrade rail
12:37<hmmm>even when some trains are not stopped in a depot, they're out
12:37<@planetmaker>he :-)
12:37<hmmm>so, it finds itself with old train tracks
12:37<@planetmaker>Make it better. It's open source
12:37<hmmm>but with partial upgraded rails
12:37<hmmm>so, many trains are lost
12:38<hmmm>then I have no idea why it does this: if massively builds 500 trains
12:38<hmmm>like it was really done a great job at upgrading the rail
12:38<hmmm>and goes bankrupt
12:38<hmmm>that happens by year 2020/2030
12:38<hmmm>it's a monorail to maglev bug
12:38<@planetmaker>ah, sad. I had recently a lot of AI playing in my test newgrf test games. I guess it never got that far
12:39<hmmm>it tries to upgrade both monorial and railway to maglev, railways seems done well, but monorail...
12:40<hmmm>5 ouf ot 10 games it went bankrupt
12:40<hmmm>the other 5 games
12:40<hmmm>it is still alive with money, but it's not exactly in top form
12:40<hmmm>it would bankrupt if the game lasted a bit more
12:42<gelignite>what i find awful about NoCAB (i think it is NoCAB) is, that it groups vehicles for a route but doesnt share orders. when you buy this AI (buy 100% shares) later in the game, it is tedious to "fix" the orders.
12:43<gelignite>Q: players can connect stations on not adjacent tiles by holding CTRL. what's the correspondent command for NOAI?
12:43<hmmm>i tested gelignite too
12:44<gelignite>it's broken
12:44<hmmm>it doesn't error out
12:44<gelignite>i'm working on an updated version
12:44<hmmm>it however does great money management in my view, maybe because it's too simple
12:45<hmmm>looking if it had ever bankrupted, brb
12:45<gelignite>the concept was to buy 2-4 vehicles and make some money. don't disturb the players and try not to went bankrupt.
12:46<gelignite>i'm sure it will become bankrupt somewhere beyond 2020
12:46<@planetmaker>hmm, you indeed might want to make a table like which gathers some stats on the game. And how the AIs did. Possibly on an AI basis rather.
12:46<hmmm>alright, never bankrupted
12:46<hmmm>7 out of 10 games profit was negative though
12:47<gelignite>should be 10 out of 10 at its current state :-P
12:47<gelignite>that's why i'm looking for the command to build connected stations on not adjacent tiles
12:48<hmmm>now listing those with script errors:
12:48<hmmm>AIAI iota 14
12:50<hmmm>MailAI seems to have many diverse errors
12:50<hmmm>error: the index 'bridge_end' does not exist
12:50<hmmm>- Route.nut error: the index 'Begin' does not exist
12:50<hmmm>- RailBuilder.nut error: parameter 1 has an invalid type 'null'; expected: 'integer'
12:51<hmmm>- Train is lost
12:51<hmmm>almost everywhere in the log
12:53<@planetmaker> @ gelignite
12:54<@planetmaker>look at the StationID parameter of that function
12:54*gelignite is looking
12:54<hmmm>for trAIns-2
12:54<hmmm>only 1 error, always the same
12:54<hmmm>railroad_manager.nut error: inconsistent compare function
12:54<@planetmaker>or... does that oly allow really adjacent ones?
12:56<@planetmaker>in any case, I'm not familiar with AI programming... maybe ask in AI sub-forums, gelignite
12:56<gelignite>i thought that it only allows really adjacent stations, but i'm gonna try something now ...
12:58<hmmm>Teshinet (v4) errors
12:58<@planetmaker>It's always good to accompany feature-requests with a code where the requested feature could be easily tested with (by adding a line or two possibly)
12:58<hmmm>Unable to connect stations. Aborting and removing stations.
12:58<hmmm>Trying to build an airport route. planes.nut error: parameter 1 has an invalid type 'null'; expected: 'integer'
12:59<hmmm>- One or more stations or depots were not built. Aborting.
12:59<hmmm>- Town is NOT valid. Invalid location! error: the index 'station_id' does not exist -
12:59<hmmm>- Selling vehicles with invalid or no orders. error: parameter 1 has an invalid type 'null'; expected: 'integer'
12:59<hmmm>this type 'null' excepted 'integer' happens way too often in many scripts which include aircraft
13:00<hmmm>chopper (v10) error:
13:01<hmmm>checking for airports that need upgrading... error: parameter 1 has an invalid type 'null'; expected: 'integer'
13:01<hmmm>also Syntrans
13:02<hmmm>- airport.nut error: the index 'KABOOOOOM_unknown_airport_type' does not exist
13:02<hmmm>cluelessplus and paxlink seem to do aircraft fine enough
13:03<hmmm>terron too
13:05<gelignite>planetmaker, it works. Instead of AIStation::STATION_JOIN_ADJACENT one can use AIStation.GetStationID( TileIndex ); // TileIndex == TileIndex of the station to connect to.
13:06<gelignite>didn't thought of that earlier. I always thought i can use the macros only. :-/
13:07<@planetmaker>:-) good that it works :-)
13:08<hmmm>i think AIAI errors are also related to airport construction, let me check
13:08<hmmm>yup, it is
13:08<hmmm>- Vehicle (Sampson U52) construction failed with ERR_NOT_ENOUGH_CASH(message from AIAI::BuildVehicle), ERR_PRECONDITION_FAILED (before sign construction), engine: Sampson U52, last error is ERR_NONE, debug.nut error: division by zero
13:09<hmmm>if I recall, the AI was trying to build an engine that didn't exist anymore
13:10<hmmm>- Too many vehicles on this route!, Empty AIVehicleList_Station, Invalid vehicle, aftercheck4 1314, last error is ERR_NONE debug.nut error: division by zero
13:10<hmmm>that seemed like the AI was counting the number of attempts it tried to build the non-existant Sampson U52
13:10<hmmm>too many vehicles on this route were actually zero vehicles
13:10<hmmm>odd error
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13:16<hmmm>- You can't convert a path while there's a running pathfinder. Dominion.Roads.nut error: the index 'remove' does not exist
13:16<hmmm>- CountBuoys() must be supplied with a valid path. OpHibernia.nut error: arith op * on between 'integer' and 'null'
13:17-!-valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
13:18<hmmm>roadai v3:
13:18<hmmm>- network.nut error: the index '0' does not exist
13:18<hmmm>now odd behaviours
13:19<hmmm>SimpleAI (v8)
13:19<hmmm>- May not sell old train with breakdowns enabled
13:19<hmmm>it is constantly sending the train to a depot
13:19<hmmm>when it breakdowns
13:19<hmmm>at every attempt it does, the train reverses direction
13:20<hmmm>it never gets anywhere
13:20<hmmm>back and forth without entering a depot
13:21<hmmm>- Continuously attempts to build the same route even though it fails
13:21<hmmm>this one is the soloe reason I get bankrupt warnings
13:21<hmmm>thought it never went bankrupt
13:22<hmmm>- Bankrupt warnings with profitable vehicles
13:22<hmmm>well, yeah, that's exactly what I described
13:25<hmmm>it is very sensitive to game settings
13:26<hmmm>does seem to have problems with expanding road stations
13:26<hmmm>especially when it's close to a bridge
13:26<hmmm>it destroys the bridge
13:26<hmmm>and while the station is expanded, it broke the route
13:29<hmmm>it is also horrible and dealing with rivers
13:29<hmmm>river tiles are its worst route breaker
13:31<NGC3982>Building signals on rails where trains are present. I guess that is a new thing from 1.3.0?
13:31<hmmm>it survived all 10 games thx to great money management
13:32<FLHerne>NGC3982: And very nice it is too :-)
13:32<NGC3982>FLHerne: Indeed!
13:33<hmmm>hmm, i'd like to post my findings on the forum, but then again, I don't want to be put up against devs again
13:33<FLHerne>Is there some way to 'svn add' all files added by patches?
13:35<FLHerne>Running make and then adding all the files that it complains don't exist is very silly
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13:43<George>can someone help me with templates in NML?
13:43<George>#define engine_direction_template(name) \
13:43<George>switch (FEAT_TRAINS, PARENT, t_##name##_get_spriteset, \
13:43<George>[ \
13:43<George> STORE_TEMP(count_veh_id(##name##), 0), \
13:43<George> STORE_TEMP(current_speed, 1), \
13:43<George> STORE_TEMP(date_of_last_service, 2) \
13:43<George>]) \
13:43<George>{ \
13:43<George> t_##name##_get_spriteset_2; \
13:43<George>} \
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>George: please use a paste site
13:44<George>but I get src/electric/vl80s.pnml:68:1: error: pasting "(" and "vl80s" does not give a valid preprocessing token
13:44<George>src/electric/vl80s.pnml:68:1: error: pasting "vl80s" and "\" does not give a valid preprocessing token
13:44-!-DarkAceZ [~BillyMays@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>George: like
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25244 /trunk/src/lang (italian.txt spanish.txt) (2013-05-14 17:46:07 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<@DorpsGek>spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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13:46<Eddi|zuHause>George: sounds like the preprocessor disagrees with you about the semantics of the ## operator
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>George: try veh_id(name) without the ##
13:47<George>Shouldn't it count name instead of vl80s then?
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>vl80s is what you gave as parameter to the macro
13:48<George>yes, it is the vehicle ID name
13:49<hmmm>I'd like to share my set of ideas for some stuff in the game, but part of me already knows I'm gonna be criticized
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>George: use ## if you want to combine the name with another word, leave ## out if you want to just use the name
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>George: not entirely sure where the "\" comes from, though.
13:52<hmmm>rail/road crossings - I had an idea to penalize the train owner in a more "reasonable" way when a road vehicle is destroyed - charge the current road vehicle value as a penalty for the train owner
13:52<hmmm>like some indemnization
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>hmmm: so you bankrupt a company by throwing busses at it?
13:53<hmmm>so it's a bad idea
13:54<George>Eddi|zuHause: Thank you! It works!
13:54<hmmm>but it's a lose lose situation
13:54<FLHerne>A better one would be fixing LCs to stop stuff blowing up so often :P
13:55<FLHerne>Things like 'one bus got hit, so vehicles queue up behind it and get hit by the next train on the other line' are just silly
13:55<FLHerne>What's wrong with the adjacent-crossings patch?
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>it misses a setting for converting old savegames
13:56<hmmm>another idea was to make the road/rail tile to act as a secondary route, only if no other route is found in the vicinity
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>and someone who can write code for drawing diagonal crossings
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>hmmm: it already does that
13:58<hmmm>how does it work exactly? vicinity?
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>both road vehicles and trains get a pathfinder penalty for level crossings
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>so if there's a penalty of 800, it will consider a detour of 8 tiles
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>to avoid this obstacle
13:59<hmmm>it means it needs a road 8 tiles away from the rail/road cross?
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>the road penalty is a bit higher, afaik
14:00<hmmm>does it consider tunnels?
14:00<hmmm>I saw some buses in some game that could get away if it had picked a tunnel
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>why wouldn't it?
14:00<hmmm>instead of going the shortest way via a rail/road cross
14:01<hmmm>the distance, for human, was almost the same between the 2 stations
14:01<hmmm>in either route
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14:02<hmmm>it picked the road/rail cross more often
14:02<hmmm>it depended only if it had to do a service at a depot more closer to the tunnel
14:02<hmmm>that were the only times those buses went via tunnel
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i don't find the right setting in the config
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>might be this one: yapf.road_crossing_penalty = 300
14:06<hmmm>there is yet another idea
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>but the value seems a bit low
14:07<hmmm>there is a train signal that makes the crossing turn red for road vehicles even when the train is way further away from that
14:08<hmmm>I saw it happen a few times
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14:08<FLHerne>hmmm: Path signals (both types)
14:08<FLHerne>If there's a path reserved across the crossing, the barriers go down
14:09<hmmm>the idea was based on this behaviour
14:10<hmmm>to have some 'invisible' signals on the rail route that would only affect the crossing
14:10<hmmm>only affect road vehicle
14:11<hmmm>it wouldn't be fool proof, but would drasticaly reduce the number of accidents
14:12<@Alberth>a bridge is much safer :p
14:12<hmmm>yeah, tell that to the train owner
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>hmmm: traditionally, what these signals did was turn doubletracks into a death trap
14:15<gelignite>i like hitting vehicles with my trains. especially competitors' vehicles. :-) that's my favorite turn to reduce their fleets :)
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>the adjacent crossings patch solves that somewhat
14:15<hmmm>ah, those queuing
14:15<hmmm>yeah, that's a problem
14:18<hmmm>well, my least elegant idea was
14:19<hmmm>a chance that the train is also destroyed when colliding with road vehicle
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>that'll go really well with players :p
14:20<hmmm>can't say how much of a chance
14:21<hmmm>there's always those abusers who will do it on purpose
14:21<hmmm>the train is never destroyed, but now it would have a chance to happen
14:22<hmmm>or then, the exact opposite
14:22<hmmm>neither is destroyed
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>the only case i know where that happened was when the RV had dangerous cargo like fuel
14:22<hmmm>sort of like ghost mode, go-through each other
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14:24<hmmm>now I want to talk about rivers
14:25<hmmm>nice addition
14:25<hmmm>screws up many AIs
14:25<hmmm>but it's rather expensive
14:25<hmmm>to build canals
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you can use a base cost mod
14:26<hmmm>no one likes NewGRFs. erm, ok, nearly no one
14:26<hmmm>at least those I've been playing with
14:27<hmmm>it is unattractive
14:27<FLHerne>hmmm: No-one likes NewGRFs in general!?
14:27<hmmm>yes, the most populated servers
14:28<hmmm>are those without any NewGRF requirement
14:28<@Alberth>that's a VERY small sample
14:28<FLHerne>hmmm: Ah, servers are different
14:28<FLHerne>But they're a tiny proportion of total players
14:28<@Alberth>ever looked at the screenshots forum? Please find a screenshot without newgrfs
14:28<FLHerne>Trouble is, it's difficult to find a bunch of people who like the *same* combination of grfs :P
14:29<hmmm>if something is "official", then everyone will expect the same settings
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>... and then get all the GRFs to those people
14:29<hmmm>same costs, same kind of mechanic
14:29<FLHerne>So you run a server with a bunch of grfs you like, and no-one joins because they think 'Oh, I like those grfs, but I hate that other one. Shame' :-(
14:29<@Alberth>FLHerne: just like finding agreement on which settings are obsolete :)
14:29<FLHerne>Been there, done that...
14:29<FLHerne>Not with the settings, servers :P
14:30<hmmm>settings come next
14:30<@Alberth>haha :)
14:30<FLHerne>Similarly, I'd love to play Cargodist MP
14:30<hmmm>first thing I do when joining a server is to find one without NewGRF requirements
14:31<hmmm>then to find one with settings I see fair
14:31<FLHerne>but there aren't enough other people who want to, especially with the grfs I want to play with
14:31<hmmm>tendency for the most populated servers are usually small maps
14:32<hmmm>256x512 or 512x512
14:32<hmmm>larger than this and it becomes least attractive
14:32<V453000>Alberth: that is the biggest sample
14:32<V453000>try having a server without newGRFs, you get enormous amount of players
14:32<hmmm>aircraft also seem to attract players
14:32<V453000>literally Players
14:32<hmmm>even if there's a cap
14:33<@Alberth>V: :D
14:33<@Alberth>hmmm: set the cap to 0 :p
14:34<V453000>but, to not make it seem like I agree with hmm, server without newGRFs is often full of idiots and trolls, but yes, they are in large quantity
14:34-!-LordPixaII [~pixa@] has joined #openttd
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>ok, since when does 512^2 qualify as a "small" map?
14:34<hmmm>in fact, the better the number of possible transportation types, the better it helps to get a populated server
14:35<@Alberth>V453000: I was thinking "new users", but fair enough :)
14:35<hmmm>512x512, if the settings and map layout are attractive enough, will have ppl stay and play for longer
14:35<@Alberth>hmmm: what are you getting at? Explaining to us how to attract players?
14:35<hmmm>yes, kinda
14:35<@Alberth>tbh, I don't care at all
14:36<V453000>hmmm: I use newGRFs in Every game and our server is always with around 10 companies or more
14:36<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Since someone invented 2048^2 ones :P
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>hmmm: huge maps are not popular in MP because they get unplayable after a while
14:36<@Alberth>FLHerne: and they still complain it's not big enough :p
14:37<hmmm>I don't have that impression
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>because they slow down computers rather early, and then half the people can't play anymore
14:37<hmmm>big maps are usually for ppl who come in, build a gigantic route then go afk forever
14:37<hmmm>that's not great imo
14:38<hmmm>it feels like a "lone" server
14:38<hmmm>like there's no one there
14:38<hmmm>even with companies in it
14:38<hmmm>there's less interaction
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14:39<hmmm>it also detracts ppl who want to start anew
14:39<FLHerne>Alberth: It isn't :P
14:39<hmmm>"oh that guy already have 9999999999 money, I'm out for another server"
14:39<V453000>I am not sure what are you trying to achieve hmmm, but if you want to read how to actually make a really really good server,
14:39*FLHerne is a large_maps user :D
14:40<@Alberth>FLHerne: I just get very much lost on those maps :)
14:40<V453000>more than 512x512 is pointless
14:40<FLHerne>Alberth: Play them between four people, on and off for a few months :P
14:40<V453000>you can put more than 3000 trains on 512x512, which demolishes any cpu for multiplayer playing
14:41<FLHerne>It slowly fills up a bit, and we don't like overly busy-looking maps
14:41<V453000>oh yeah, busy would be terrible
14:41<FLHerne>V453000: You *can*, but then your entire world is made of tracks :P
14:41<@Alberth>FLHerne: I never play a game for more than a few days in total
14:41<FLHerne>V453000: We had this argument already :D
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>i've tried large maps like 2048x1024 before. i usually connect half the towns, and after 50 game years the network gets so complex that i have to improve stuff here and there and i don't get to connect anything anymore
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>that was with low number of towns
14:42<@Alberth>FLHerne: everything full of tracks is very natural endpoint of the game :p
14:42<FLHerne>Alberth: It's a horrible-looking endpoint though, so larger maps are useful to avoid reaching t :D
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14:43<FLHerne>A better endpoint is 'all the towns and industries are connected by a semi-realistic UK-style rail and road network' :P
14:43<@Alberth>I do play weirdly sized maps, like 128x1024 or so
14:43<@Alberth>realistic? can you do that with NUTS?
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>"Endpoint" of a 128x256 map:,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB)
14:44<FLHerne>Alberth: Nah, who'd want to use something as ugly as NUTS? :D
14:44<V453000>bitch :D
14:44*FLHerne is aware of its creator's presence :P
14:44<V453000>strike back: empty map:
14:46<hmmm>All pathfinders should be YAPF, with forbidden 90deg turns and allowed RV queueing being basically
14:46<@Alberth>FLHerne: I do, a very easy to use vehicle set
14:46<hmmm>im reading that guide
14:46<hmmm>that's something I disagree
14:47<hmmm>well I agree with YAPF for everything
14:47<FLHerne>Alberth: I was joking :P
14:47*FLHerne personally wouldn't, though
14:47<hmmm>but not with 90 degrees and rv queue
14:47<hmmm>YAPF hates 90 degrees with ships
14:47<hmmm>"ship is lost" no it's not
14:48<hmmm>rv queue will make lorry stations to clog
14:48<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I have about the first 20 tiles height, then my browser thought it to be enough :)
14:48<hmmm>better to have them constantly moving
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14:49<hmmm>bus stops with full loads
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: must be a server issue, i can't get the picture either
14:50<hmmm>I try to prevent that when I set a game
14:50<hmmm>those two.way bus stops are still a problem
14:50<@Alberth>hmmm: it's no doubt all very interesting, but you are aware that everybody plays a different OpenTTD game?
14:51<@Alberth>that's why you have so many settings and newgrfs, everybody can tweak it to his/her own liking
14:51<hmmm>for road networks I find rv queue a problem
14:52*Alberth prefers the word "challenge"
14:52-!-LordAro|Phone [] has joined #openttd
14:52<@Alberth>hi, phone of LordAro
14:52<hmmm>ok, a challenge if I'm playing alone
14:52<hmmm>but a problem with multiple companies using road vehicles
14:52<hmmm>if one inudstry or so dies
14:53<hmmm>full loading
14:53<hmmm>with queue
14:53<LordAro|Phone>hi, irc client of Alberth :-)
14:53<hmmm>is really hmm... hard to cope with
14:53<hmmm>especially if the other player is not there anymore
14:54<hmmm>it is using my road
14:54<hmmm>i can't remove that road
14:54<hmmm>there's his trucks on it
14:54<hmmm>I could adjust my route
14:54<hmmm>but sometimes that route isn't 100% mine
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i don't know what kind of hiccups the server had, but it seems to work better now
14:55<hmmm>sometimes I depend on his route, and he depends on mine
14:56<hmmm>well, it's just my view of it
14:56<@Alberth>indeed, goes much better now
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>of course, my "full" map has way less tracks than V's "empty" map :p
14:57<hmmm>ah, this setting Deliver cargo to a station only when there is a demand: On
14:58<hmmm>think I must be the only one who prefers it Off
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and it's people like you that prevents us from removing this setting :p
14:58<hmmm>no one has complained about it when Off yet
14:58<hmmm>feels more natural to me
14:58<hmmm>i build a station, and i get cargo there
14:58<hmmm>already waiting
14:59<hmmm>now i just end up building the rest of the route
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>it's not when you have dedicated stations for delivery and for pickup
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>means half the cargo is going to the pickup station and wasted
15:00<hmmm>that is something I disagree
15:00<hmmm>it's true what you say
15:01<hmmm>but I find that it actually makes me see what I can do
15:01<hmmm>what more I can do
15:01<hmmm>sometimes I'm really bored
15:01<hmmm>and i end up seeing what's waiting on my stations and surprise myself... wow I could transport all that cargo
15:01<hmmm>didn't even notice
15:01<hmmm>a good pretext to continue building
15:02<hmmm>so, somewhat I think it keeps ppl doing more stuff
15:02*Alberth has enough problems to move all the cargo he asks for already
15:03<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: it's a nice map, tracks can still be followed and admired :)
15:03<@Alberth>what's that grey track at the middle of south-east?
15:03<hmmm>sort of a new "motivation"
15:04<@Alberth>near the bottom border
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15:05<Eddi|zuHause>one of the NuTracks high speed thingies
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>(older version of NuTracks)
15:06<@Alberth>I should try nutracks one time
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really like the newer NuTracks
15:07<hmmm>oh, about industries and multiple of the same type
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>too noisy and too little difference between tracktypes
15:07<hmmm>multiple banks from temperate
15:07<hmmm>is a problem
15:08<hmmm>they should be considered a primary industry
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>hmmm: yes, that has been mentioned before. also water towers
15:08<hmmm>water towers are secondary
15:08<hmmm>there's not much of an issue in that one imo
15:08<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: it's difficult to stop more things to a set
15:08<hmmm>but banks produce both
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>hmmm: but it looks silly if every second house is a water tower
15:09<hmmm>a player could just build massive number of banks and transport valuables to each other
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i mean the graphics
15:09<hmmm>even when the setting forbids to fund primary industries
15:09<@Alberth>ah, not the track types?
15:09<hmmm>why's that?
15:10<@Alberth>how do those differ then? just speed?
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15:10<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the track types haven't changed much. yes, they only differ in speed, but afair you can set the speeds for each
15:10<@Alberth>hmmm: a bank is not a primary industry
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: and construction price, of course
15:11<hmmm>it is, I could build multiple banks with that setting off
15:11<hmmm>on temperate
15:11<hmmm>it accepts valuables, but also produces valuables
15:12<@Alberth>right, I am not sure I want to worry much about speed of tracks, my trains are usually slow enough :p
15:12<@Alberth>hmmm: it accepts cargo means it's not a primary industry in the default set
15:13<hmmm>should be an exception then?
15:13<@Alberth>make a newgrf for it
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>lmao :p
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>nice turn to the beginning of the discussion :p
15:15<hmmm>yeah I got lost again
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15:18<@Alberth>the default set is what it is, and is not going to change since changing it would break all old save games
15:18<@Alberth>the way to tweak the game to what you prefer is by game scripts and newgrfs
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15:20<hmmm>ok, :(
15:20<@Alberth>if you prefer to ignore that big part of the game, I'd say it's your loss
15:20<hmmm>I wont bother arguing
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15:22<hmmm>ah, wanted to also talk about terraforming, this is something difficult to explain because it also involves autoslope and bridges
15:23<hmmm>ships can get totally blocked by a town owned bridge when autoslope is on
15:23*Alberth ponders creating #openttd.suggestions
15:24<hmmm>I wanted an option that prevents towns to build autosloped bridges
15:24<hmmm>there's an option that completely disables towns from building bridges, which I find excessive
15:24<V453000>Alberth: ultimately useless channel? :D
15:25<hmmm>the bridge starting tile
15:25<hmmm>it's large enough to cover all that tile with water
15:25<hmmm>if a ship was depending on that piece of water to get by
15:25<@Alberth>V453000: redirecting people to the right channel is always useful ;)
15:25<hmmm>it will be blocked
15:26<hmmm>bad for AIs that use ships, they're not too smart to deal with this
15:28<hmmm>now terraforming, I really would like to have a feature that is not a NewGRF that would prevent leveling down to water level or up from water level, all those other levels would be possible
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15:28<hmmm>too much to ask.?
15:30<@Alberth>depends on your expectations who will do the actual work
15:31<hmmm>essentially no terraforming below a certain level
15:31<hmmm>yeh, i know I ask too much
15:33<hmmm>could be applied to autoslope as well
15:33<hmmm>no autosloping below that same certain level
15:33<hmmm>meh... I talk too much
15:34<V453000>code ie
15:35<frosch123>just use a basecost newgrf and increase clear water cost by factor 1024
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should prevent towns from clearing (half-) water tiles?
15:36<hmmm>"cannot raise land.... water in the way"
15:37<LordAro|Phone>V453000: you scared me for a little bit there - why would anyone want to code Internet Explorer?? :3
15:37<V453000>raise clear water cost factor by 64000
15:37<@Alberth>LordAro|Phone: improving it is easy? :)
15:37<hmmm>problem is.... water above that level could be terraformed
15:37<hmmm>I thought about this
15:38<hmmm>they're kind of ruining my suggestion
15:39<hmmm>if only river tiles were set to be permanent objects
15:40<frosch123>increase clear river cost by factor 1024
15:40<hmmm>takes a NewGRF for that
15:41<frosch123>hmm, i believe clear water and clear river is the same :p
15:41<frosch123>only clear canal is separate
15:41<hmmm>couldn't river tiles be treated the same way those lighthouses are?
15:42<hmmm>canal is different, that is company owned stuff
15:43<hmmm>can be destroyed
15:43<frosch123>make no sense for lakes
15:43<V453000>raise the cost so it cannot be demolished
15:43<frosch123>you would also have to forbit leveling sea
15:43<V453000>oh wait you hate newGRFs
15:44<V453000>too bad
15:44<hmmm>what I hate about newgrf is that it's considered "non-default"
15:44<hmmm>like some mod
15:45<hmmm>something extra for the original game, but not the original game
15:45<LordAro|Phone>In fairness, using "use a newgrf" to fix a games balancing issues is a pretty poor excuse
15:45<hmmm>like i'm playing something unofficial
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>hmmm: and AIs are not?
15:46<hmmm>AIs are
15:46<hmmm>they dont' require the player who joins the server
15:46<hmmm>to download any extra
15:47<hmmm>it's "transparent"
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>so what you're really saying is to make transferring the NewGRFs on join transparent for the user=
15:48-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
15:48<hmmm>hmmm if it's really happening
15:48<hmmm>but not locally stored forever, yes
15:48<hmmm>like an AI
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15:49<hmmm>when someone joins one of my games with an AI running, he's not downloading the AI
15:49<hmmm>but there's an AI running
15:49<hmmm>when he leaves the game, he doesn't get the AI
15:50<hmmm>it is host dependant
15:50<hmmm>not client
15:51<V453000>your suggestions are amazing
15:51<LordAro|Phone>That would require a massive change to the client-server set up
15:53<hmmm>hope it is
15:55<LordAro|Phone>V453000: don't be mean to newbies - you were one once ;)
15:55<V453000>yes but I didnt suggest things which are already solvable, it just "doesnt feel default"
15:56<hmmm>I had one succesful game set on arctic tileset with an AI running
15:57<hmmm>I say successful becase there were other players
15:57<hmmm>not those who join and leave
15:57<hmmm>lasted well over 50 years
15:57<hmmm>it was AroAI i think
15:58*LordAro|Phone woops
15:58<LordAro|Phone>As in, woot woot
15:58<LordAro|Phone>Yay :)
15:58<hmmm>they made aircraft, AroAI however had many old buses though
15:59<hmmm>still, it was working out fine for 2 other guys
15:59<hmmm>I was the one who went mass trucks though and those buses kinda slowed me
16:00<LordAro|Phone>I haven't done any development on AroAI in over a year - I never did get around to implementing more 'advanced' features :L
16:01<hmmm>I saw helicopters, airplanes, trains and ships
16:01<hmmm>diverse enough for my tasting, hence I say succesful
16:02<hmmm>trains were hard really
16:02<hmmm>'cus im biased against them
16:02<hmmm>but they managed to deal with it with a bit of my help
16:04<hmmm>was toying with the realistic acceleration settings
16:05<hmmm>10% for steepness
16:05<hmmm>weigth x3
16:05<hmmm>had to teach them to make tunnels, bridges and smooth-scape hills for those trains
16:06<hmmm>they really don't like to plan routes
16:06<hmmm>but this is how I wanted
16:06<hmmm>how I intended trains to be
16:06<hmmm>hard with cliffs
16:06*Alberth also doesn't plan routes
16:07<frosch123>LordAro|Phone: am i allowed to contribute a palindrome generator to aroai? :p
16:08<LordAro|Phone>If you like :D
16:09<hmmm>in the end
16:09<hmmm>it felt like locomotion
16:09<juzza1>George: did you solve your previous problem with liveries yet? it just occured to me, that maybe changing the scope of the switch from SELF to PARENT would help
16:09<hmmm>trains can't just go uphill
16:09<hmmm>you have to plan a better route if you need them to go uphill
16:10<@Alberth> ?
16:11<hmmm>ahaha, bad example
16:11<George>juzza1: Well.. no. I changed from SELF to PARENT, but there is a bug left - when you split a train in depot it gets old graphics. When coming out it becomes new.
16:11<alluke>nice building
16:11<George>so, a problem is seen in depot only
16:11<George>but it can't be solved inside GRF
16:11<@Terkhen>good night
16:12<hmmm>in locomotion, to have a train to succefully go up a level
16:12<frosch123>Alberth: haha, you do the same sillyness as i do :) long way up, straight down when empty on retour :p
16:12<hmmm>it needs 2 slopes
16:12<hmmm>on my game, it needed 2 slopes as well, but 1 is straight, the other is level
16:12<hmmm>and the train length couldn't be all that large
16:12<@Alberth>frosch123: until we add a derailment disaster :p
16:12<hmmm>and have many consecutive hills
16:13<hmmm>either a small train going up many tiles
16:13<hmmm>or a large train going up not that many tiles
16:14<@Alberth>frosch123: what do you do with full load downward?
16:14*Alberth also goes straight down :p
16:14<frosch123>actually, i think i switched to building them in parallel the same way
16:14<frosch123>but yeah, empty/full doe snot matter
16:15<LordAro|Phone>Doe snot? Eww :-P
16:15<hmmm>there is still an issue that bothers me yet with the realistic acceleration
16:15<hmmm>making turns
16:15<@Alberth>in parallel as 2 tiles wide zigzag up?
16:15<frosch123>sometimes when there is a massive hill (height 10 with only straight slopes), i build the train station at the bottom and do straight heqs transfer
16:16<@Alberth>that's a nice one
16:16<hmmm>with realistic acceleration, a small turn doesn't affect speed at all
16:16<hmmm>the original, every turn does affect speed
16:17<frosch123>Alberth: well, somewhat parallel, sometimes you cannot put them next to each other, but need some tiles distance
16:17<frosch123>hmmm: are you sure, i would rather think with original turns do not matter at all
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>maybe he meant slopes?
16:17<hmmm>i mean making turns
16:18<hmmm>train needs to turn left by 45
16:18<hmmm>original loses speed
16:18<hmmm>realisting, nothing
16:18<frosch123>with original, even depots were not speed limiting
16:18<frosch123>unless i fixed that recenty... cannot remember whether i changed it or left it
16:18<hmmm>road vehicles lose speed
16:18<hmmm>at every turn
16:19<hmmm>trains not exactly
16:19<LordAro|Phone>400mph maglev into depot? Choo choo!
16:19<frosch123>LordAro|Phone: i don't think there is a speed limit when running into a black hole
16:20<hmmm>it depends on the whole train lenght and how many turns during train length
16:20<hmmm>the issue happens only if it's only 1 turn
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>the speed limit is the speed of light, which is the entire point of a black hole :p
16:20<hmmm>no loss in speed
16:21<LordAro|Phone>Can't be a black hole - you get stuff out of it
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>there wouldn't be any black holes without speed of light
16:21<LordAro|Phone>Maybe a wormhole thoigh :)
16:21<hmmm>hmm please?
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>wormholes are bridges/tunnels
16:21<hmmm>no one gets what I'm refering?
16:22<hmmm>i need to find the wiki example
16:23<LordAro|Phone>hmmm: we all get what you're referring to, but I don't get what your point is
16:24<hmmm>the 200 km/h one
16:24<@Alberth>frosch123: I once had 2 parallel tracks up :)
16:24<hmmm>it goes constantly at 200
16:25<hmmm>should not be like that
16:25<hmmm>should lose speed at every turn
16:25<hmmm>not a cap on max speed, just subtracting speed from it's current speed
16:26<alluke>planetmaker: do trains avoid bridges if there are routes without them available?
16:26<hmmm>the 132 kmh example is fine
16:27<hmmm>that is a cap on the max speed
16:28<hmmm>essentially, I want a mix of both original and realistic for trains making turns
16:29<hmmm>that would be ideal
16:29<frosch123> <- Alberth :)
16:29<frosch123>confuses me every time i look at it
16:30<@Alberth>LordAro|Phone: there is no point, it's just explaining the one true way of how openttd should behave, under the assumption that everybody plays the same way and has the same interests in the game
16:30<frosch123>it looks like 2 track in one direction, and four in the other
16:30*Alberth clicks the links very carefully....
16:31<@Alberth>indeed :)
16:31<V453000>you need stepped climbing for strong trains? I am not even asking what is the weight multiplier and slope_steepness
16:32<hmmm>is that question for me?
16:33<frosch123>V453000: ofc its choosen in a way it is fun :p
16:33<V453000>well making medium and fast classes worthless aint fun :P
16:33<frosch123>why, you can use them downhill, or in flat terrain
16:34<@Alberth>V453000: I also build these zigzags up the hill even when not needed, it looks so much better :)
16:34<V453000>:D nuff sed
16:34<frosch123>and if you play with breakdowns, acceleration is not nearly as important as you always claim :p
16:34<V453000>omfg breakdowns
16:34<hmmm>breakdowns are to be taked into consideration when planning a train route
16:35<frosch123>V453000: i cannot help you, if you remove essential gameplay elements, and then complain that there are not enough criterions for choices :p
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16:35<V453000>:D breakdowns arent essential :D
16:36<V453000>also I never complained there arent enough choices
16:36<hmmm>I'm lost, what are you guys talking about?
16:36<@Alberth>openttd, what else?
16:37<frosch123>hmmm: we are trapped in a time cyclus, ocassionaly we just talk about the same
16:37<hmmm>try these settings
16:37<hmmm>steepness 10%, weigth x3
16:37<hmmm>max length 5
16:37<frosch123>hmmm: but then there is no point in fast engines :p
16:38<hmmm>there is
16:38<LordAro|Phone>Oop, hi Zuu
16:38<alluke>i have never used breakdowns in my games
16:38<hmmm>just need to build smoother
16:39<hmmm>or use the alternative
16:39<hmmm>road vehicles
16:39<hmmm>if the route is just too damn hilly for train
16:39<V453000>are you aware that all of the people you are telling this to know kind of a lot of stuff about openttd?
16:40<frosch123>hmmm: how do wetrails work with 10% slope?
16:40<V453000>frosch123: newGRFs are prohibited
16:40<alluke>if the route is too hilly , build serpentine rails
16:41<alluke>smooth incline
16:41<frosch123>V453000: what, he is talking about only default engines?
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>if the route is too hilly, don't use rails
16:41<hmmm>exactly zu
16:41<hmmm>use road vehicle
16:41<V453000>strong trains?
16:41<hmmm>if the route is straigth forward
16:41<hmmm>use train
16:41<frosch123>"zu" is an awesome nickname :p
16:42<frosch123>"zu" from team "eddi"
16:42<hmmm>er, you evil ppl
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes. we're so evil we get distracted by side-discussions when the conversation gets boring
16:44<hmmm>you focus too much on trains
16:45<V453000>get 2000 trains on 512x512 then we can talk again :)
16:45<frosch123>i am not sure whether wetrails counts as trains
16:45<V453000>frosch123: probably does :P
16:45<hmmm>when the thought of trains not being able to do everything in the game comes up, you're quick to disregard me
16:46<frosch123>maybe V, i use trams and ships regulary
16:46<hmmm>i believe trains are supposed to be weak on turns and hills
16:46<frosch123>sometimes helicopters when i really want to transport gold or valueables
16:46<alluke>obly tight turns
16:46<hmmm>weak, perhaps I shall say, severely underpowered
16:47<alluke>and big hills
16:47<FLHerne>hmmm: The trouble is, that trains *can* be forced to do everything, if you're V453000 and enjoy making the entire world into a rail junction ;-)
16:47<V453000>trains give unchallenged amount of options in compare to any other vehicle type, in the long term building with trains is endlessly more interesting
16:47<hmmm>so that other vehicle types are the answer
16:47<alluke>trains have so much inertia they roll easily over small hills
16:47<alluke>with enough speed
16:47<hmmm>to make it more diverse when picking what transport to use
16:47*Alberth just adds more engines :)
16:48<hmmm>it's a bit sad no one agrees
16:48<V453000>superstrong class if all else fails :D
16:48<FLHerne>hmmm: So increase the cargo multiplier and hill steppness for trains
16:48<FLHerne>hmmm: Then your trains will be weak, and slow on hills :P
16:48<FLHerne>Those are both in the settings somewhere ;-)
16:49<hmmm>but pure straigths on the same level with realistic acceleration is still easier than the original
16:49<FLHerne>hmmm: If you increase the cargo weight multiplier, it's not...
16:49<@Alberth>hmmm: it's not sad, it means everybody can play it in his/her favorite way
16:49<alluke>the original acceleration model is the second worst thing after auschwitz
16:49<frosch123>hmmm: well, your points are a bit week, if you make false claims about original acceleration in curves, and if you deny to play with newgrf, and thus never had a chance to learn about power and tractive effort
16:49<V453000>XD I will remember that alluke
16:49<V453000>well said
16:50<hmmm>i played with realistic acceleration
16:50<FLHerne>hmmm: There are enough settings that you can make your trains perform in a wide variety of ways
16:50<hmmm>i enjoyed to see maglevs unable to go uphill
16:50<hmmm>it needed torque
16:50<hmmm>or smother hilsl
16:50<FLHerne>If you can't change enough settings, make a NewGRF in which trains behave as you wish
16:50<hmmm>or tunnels
16:50<hmmm>or bridges
16:50<hmmm>that's it
16:50<hmmm>that's the best aspect of realistic
16:50<hmmm>but on turns
16:51<hmmm>realistic is actually easier for trains
16:51<@Alberth>except openttd does not aim at realism :)
16:51<alluke>my ottd games do
16:51<FLHerne>Alberth: A lot of its grf-makers and players do :P
16:51<V453000>SO IT DOES.
16:51<hmmm>if someone terraforms the whole route
16:51<hmmm>which happens so often
16:51<alluke>i use only real-life stuff and realistic building
16:51<alluke>and 2cc is cancer
16:51<hmmm>realistic will become more profitable
16:51<hmmm>than original
16:52<hmmm>turns should deter that
16:52<FLHerne>This city is tolerably realistic, I think
16:52<@Alberth>FLHerne: yes, most newgrfs contain too much stuff to be useful or understandable for me :(
16:52<hmmm>so I enjoy turns from original accel and cliffs climbing from realistic
16:52<hmmm>and i'd propose both
16:52<alluke>build faster curves
16:52<hmmm>on the same
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16:52<FLHerne>hmmm: It's possible to reduce the effect of curve radius by newgrf ;-)
16:52<FLHerne>UKRS2 already does that for tilting trains
16:53<alluke>trains cant take \_/ curves 80kmh irl
16:53<@Alberth>FLHerne: it looks pretty, I don't have the patience to make such things
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16:58<hmmm>what about a configurable setting for turns?
16:58<hmmm>on the realistic
16:59<hmmm>i can tweak acceleration with weigth, hill climbing with steepness, but turns aren't all that much customizable
16:59<FLHerne>hmmm: The devs don't like to add settings for things that can be done in newgrf
17:00<hmmm>ok :(
17:00<alluke>hmm: whats your problems with turns
17:01<@Alberth>it gives chaos when having two captains at a ship in such cases
17:01<alluke>post a screenie of one turn and whats wrong with it
17:01<@Alberth>alluke: read the monologue of the past hour or so? :)
17:01<alluke>i think ive got it
17:01<hmmm>it's all about the speed at which turns are done
17:01<alluke>but still
17:02<alluke>i hate it when people dont understand the basic laws of physics and then moan about realistic simulation
17:02<hmmm>there is a 0 km/h decrease on turns with realistic
17:02<hmmm>but there is a cap to the max speed on turns
17:02<hmmm>maybe I can't make myself clear on this
17:03<hmmm>original: train goes at 112 km/h - makes a simple turn 45º
17:03<hmmm>loses speed
17:03<hmmm>GOOD! I like it
17:03<alluke>make the turn broader
17:03<hmmm>realistic: train goes at 112 km/h - same a simple turn 45º - still 112
17:03<alluke>easy fix
17:03<hmmm>tell me
17:04<alluke>good night
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17:05<hmmm>i prefer to have every kind of turn to impact current speed, but not cap the speed
17:06<hmmm>if it goes at 112 km/h, lose some speed, perhaps -15 km/h
17:06<hmmm>at every kind of turn
17:06<hmmm>so, it goes down to 97 km/h
17:07<hmmm>if it goes at 150 km/h, lose that same speed to 135
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17:07<hmmm>right now, the perfect turns end up not impacting speed at all with realistic
17:07<hmmm>perfectly lay out on the track
17:08<@Rubidium>but... train's can't make 45 degree turns, so you should forbid them from going through those turns
17:08<@Rubidium>also, in the real world there are many turns that have absolutely no impact on speed
17:10<hmmm>road vehicles, even with realistic, lose speed at every turn
17:10<hmmm>why not trains
17:10<@Rubidium>e.g. (some) high speed switches have such large radii that the straight and divergent track have the same maximum speed
17:11<hmmm>a perfect lay out of tracks
17:11<hmmm>will still allow a train to go max speed, no impact
17:11<hmmm>even if it's zig zag
17:11<hmmm>do that with a road vehicle
17:11<hmmm>it doesn't happen the same
17:12<@Rubidium>if road vehicles have 45 degree turns, they won't do that either
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17:13<hmmm>thank you for understanding me, english is bad for me
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17:13<hmmm>i'm getting worse at it by the day
17:16<@Rubidium>ah... there she is: the 1:39.173 switch (those yellow things in the track are near the tongue)
17:17<@Rubidium>these have a maximum divergent speed of 160 km/h, while 160 km/h is also the maximum line speed, i.e. for the straight track
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17:20<hmmm>what can you see as good in the realistic train accel in your opinion?
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17:21<hmmm>well, nevermind
17:23<hmmm>i don't know anything about real life so i can't talk about that
17:23<hmmm>how trains work
17:25<hmmm>think I've exposed all my concerns
17:26<frosch123>planetmaker: you haven't missed anything :p
17:26<@planetmaker>ok :D
17:27<hmmm>oh, building a bridge over company-owned land, is that intended behaviour?
17:27<hmmm>last thing, then i'm gone
17:27<frosch123>planetmaker: it could only have been worse if belugas would have joined the discussion :p
17:27<frosch123>hmmm: fs#5524
17:28<hmmm>is that intended?
17:28<@Rubidium>and now the inverse question: should I be able to box someone in by just buying land?
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17:30<@Rubidium>that answer implies that building a bridge over company owned land is okay (to prevent boxing in)
17:30<hmmm>neither are
17:31<@Rubidium>anyhow, the best solution is to remove company owned land
17:32<hmmm>but in my view, when someone reserves land, no one expects to be able to counter-measure it
17:32<hmmm>it's still two wrongs
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17:34<hmmm>for the sake of intended behaviour, I think building a bridge over someone else's land shouldn't be possible
17:37<@planetmaker>no bridge over rail or road or canal?
17:37<@planetmaker>would make them kinda useless
17:38<@planetmaker>better solution is to allow (some) station parts be built under bridges :-)
17:38<FLHerne>^^ would be AWESOME!
17:39*FLHerne is excited enough to be using ALLCAPS! :D
17:39<hmmm>build an airport
17:39<hmmm>heh... looks really bad
17:39<hmmm>but k
17:39<hmmm>can't treat those tiles as something different?
17:42<@planetmaker>George, what you try with that template earlier, it's got nothing to do with NML. It's simply using the pre-processor templating functions of gcc
17:43<@planetmaker>and use of those is one of two reasons I employ it
17:43<hmmm>ah, the midi bug
17:44<hmmm>meh... i just ended up playing no midi
17:44<hmmm>I hear some reverb on the midi, which somewhat explains THX is in effect
17:46<hmmm>how many sound channels does OTTD use?
17:47<hmmm>I was able to trigger the issue with ottd fully zoomed out, which increases the number of simultaneous sounds being played at the same time
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17:48<hmmm>even without midi playing, there were times it clogged the buffer and stopped windows from playing any more sounds
17:48<hmmm>it happened with too many sounds playing at the same time
17:48<hmmm>do you know what it could be?
17:51<+glx>hmmm: 2 channels, it's simple stereo
17:52<hmmm>hmm, strange
17:52<hmmm>what about that mixing up to 128 voices or what
17:52<hmmm>i hear many sounds
17:53<hmmm>but it can't play that many, it will end up with my system playing no sound at all
17:53<hmmm>is it voice or channel?
17:54<hmmm>really sucks, i have either to stop/start the sound driver or reboot the system
17:54<+glx>openttd merges all sounds in a buffer before sending them to the sound card
17:55<hmmm>what about the after effects?
17:55<hmmm>adds reverb, some echo, some fade out on some sounds
17:55<hmmm>will this happen after or before?
17:56<hmmm>so, sound blaster is the culprit
17:56<+glx>music is managed "directly" by windows
17:56<hmmm>there is a conflict then
17:57<hmmm>i think somehow the buffer is full at times
17:57<hmmm>it clogs and stops playing sound from then on
17:57<hmmm>for the whole system :/
17:58<+glx>maybe a driver problem
17:58<hmmm>okay, THX
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17:59<hmmm>when it's not clogged yet, I hear some sound pauses
17:59<hmmm>no sound for a brief moment, then suddenly, it "dejects" all sounds that should have been played at once
18:00<+glx>openttd uses simple WAV files fot sound effects, and those are mixed before being sent to windows
18:00<+glx>very basic stuff
18:00<hmmm>so, this symtpom is buffer retaled but not openttd fault?
18:00<hmmm>hmm :( how could i track the exact cause?
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18:02<hmmm>what windows says is something about DirectSound being in use by another application
18:03<hmmm>can't play any testing sound
18:03<+glx>openttd doesn't use directsound
18:03<+glx>or at least not directly
18:03<__ln__>no wonder it's another application using it then
18:03<hmmm>so... it can only be THX
18:03<hmmm>grrrr sound blaster
18:04<+glx>for sound we use the legacy method, ie waveOut
18:04<hmmm>what about midi?
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>midi is totally separate from sound
18:05<hmmm>seems like THX effects picks both sound sources and mixes them into a clog
18:05<hmmm>ok thank you
18:05<+glx>there are 2 midi drivers: directmusic and win32
18:06<hmmm>it's win32 which then comes out as DirectSound apparently
18:06<hmmm>no win32 audio device available
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18:06<hmmm>(because the available one is clogged"
18:07<hmmm>as far as I can tell, that's what's happening
18:07<hmmm>this thing has only happened with OpenTTD, which is really strange
18:08<hmmm>to completely shut down any sound from being played
18:08<hmmm>not even those windows specific sounds play
18:08<hmmm>he whole thing went mute
18:09<hmmm>I had other issues with sound, but nothing close to preventing sound on the whole system
18:09<hmmm>I had flash not playing sound at times
18:09<hmmm>but that was only flash
18:09<hmmm>not the whole system
18:10<+glx>really looks like a problem on your side
18:10<+glx>driver or hardware
18:10<hmmm>I solve the flash thing by restarting IE
18:11<hmmm>usually all the other problems are fixed when restarting the application
18:11<hmmm>OpenTTD is the exception
18:11<hmmm>and they don't happen as often as you might think
18:12<hmmm>only when there's driver updates
18:12<hmmm>it's like something became misconfigured the first time it goes to play
18:13<hmmm>not easy to configure the sound for first play
18:13<hmmm>but it's doable
18:14<hmmm>and it's fixed for as long as I don't install more drivers
18:14<+glx>weird system :)
18:14<hmmm>sound is then the last thing I have to configure
18:15<hmmm>the problem is that sound blaster itself is dealing with old software not directly supported on windows 7
18:16<hmmm>the combination of whole + new driver models
18:16<hmmm>works, but needs some tricks
18:17<hmmm>EAX and ALchemy for example
18:17<+glx>especially on 64bit I guess
18:17<hmmm>part of EAX is new
18:17<hmmm>some other part is old, from Windows XP era
18:18<hmmm>and needs ALchemy to make it work on windows 7
18:18<hmmm>but on top of all these there's still THX studio
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18:18<hmmm>the thing which creates 'realism'
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18:18<hmmm>all three don't really cope well together
18:19<+glx>I have a basic realtek HD provided by the mother board, that's simpler and it just works :)
18:19<hmmm>mobo was cheap
18:19<hmmm>when i bought it
18:19<hmmm>it was 2nd hand
18:19<hmmm>came with CPU
18:19<hmmm>CPU came with water cooler
18:20<hmmm>and as a bundle, a 620 PSU
18:20<hmmm>a real good one
18:20<hmmm>for €300
18:20<+glx>but often "old" hardware is meant for "old" OS
18:20<hmmm>CPU FX-8150 which at that time, was expensive and was being bombarded
18:20<hmmm>with negative reviews
18:21<hmmm>this hardware is new
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18:21<hmmm>all of it
18:21<hmmm>the old things in it are their software
18:21<hmmm>their drivers, their programs to make old stuff work on new OS
18:21<+glx>yeah that's the silly part
18:22<hmmm>I can really tell the difference
18:23<hmmm>the sound is indeed different but it's pretty much software emulated effects
18:23<hmmm>the difference is just worth it
18:23<hmmm>it really feels like it's some badass soundcard installed on
18:23<+glx>they used to do it via hardware
18:23<hmmm>while in truth it's just a licensed software from creative to work on realtek
18:24<hmmm>they call it CODEC
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18:24<hmmm>the coil noise
18:24<hmmm>is mitigated
18:25<hmmm>I still hear it
18:25<hmmm>but not as noticeable as on a system with just realtek
18:32<hmmm>who works for TerraGenesis?
18:33<hmmm>what would be the ideal settings for terragenesis to create an arctic game
18:33<hmmm>it nearly makes no ice, even with mountainous
18:34<hmmm>the original landscape is just tooo frightening
18:34<hmmm>this one is somewhat lacking
18:35<hmmm>other than that, TerraGenesis is great for all other tilesets
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18:39<Eddi|zuHause>nobody's worked on terragenesis for years
18:40<hmmm>there's barely forest, but when they are
18:40<hmmm>they're all coupled together
18:40<+glx>arctic forests are only above snow line IIRC
18:40<hmmm>yes yes I know
18:41<hmmm>if i put too much water level
18:41<hmmm>then the land is extreme
18:42<hmmm>either ice on all of it, or no ince at all
18:42<hmmm>no real mid term, unless it was somewhat lucky
18:42<+glx>you can change snow line position
18:43<hmmm>hmm :(
18:44<+glx>default is 7 but can be anything between 2 and 13
18:44<hmmm>industry placing
18:44<hmmm>is the most problematic issue
18:45<hmmm>sometimes there is a balanced number of industries
18:45<hmmm>food processing plants
18:45<hmmm>they grow on ice
18:45<hmmm>and when the generator only places ice
18:45<hmmm>in specific location of the map
18:45<hmmm>almost all of them will be there
18:46<hmmm>like if there's a mix of water and ice
18:46<hmmm>argh, maybe with a screenshot
18:46<hmmm>i suck at explaining things
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18:48<Sacro>So if someone builds an openttd patchpack, and the diff doesn't apply cleanly, is that a GPL violation?
18:48<hmmm>okay 512x512 arctic terragenesis with hilly terrain and medium water
18:49<hmmm>you will notice there's much more water than hills
18:49<+glx>it's all "random", but you can try to change sea level and snow line height to modify the result
18:49<hmmm>and when there's hills, they're generally all located close to each other
18:49<hmmm>hills with ice, that is
18:50<+glx>there's also variety distribution which should help for that
18:51<hmmm>sn't that just for trees?
18:53<hmmm>OH!!! great!
18:53<hmmm>exactly what I was looking for
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18:54<hmmm>strange, seems to be working the opposite way the wiki says
18:55<hmmm>no variety will get more ice
18:55<hmmm>high variety will get nearly no ice
18:55<hmmm>that ice is however close to each other, guess i need to tweak a bit
18:59<hmmm>the highest the variety, the least amount of ice I see on the map
18:59<hmmm>so hmm...
18:59<hmmm>what am i doing wrong
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19:02<hmmm>you there?
19:02<hmmm>well, no variety does it better
19:02<hmmm>must see roughness
19:06<hmmm>smoothness seems to do what I'm looking for slightly better, still depends on luck
19:07<hmmm>very rought and no variety
19:07<hmmm>let me test water level change
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19:12<hmmm>looks like the setting I'm looking for is Smoothness after all
19:15<hmmm>the best aproach for what i'm looking for is sea level medium, smoothness rough, terrain hilly, no variety
19:15<hmmm>a good mix of everything
19:15<hmmm>farm fields
19:15<hmmm>and normal land
19:15<hmmm>ice is still a bit luck dependant
19:15<hmmm>but that's the best approach
19:16<hmmm>you there?
19:16-!-FLHerne [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:18<hmmm>something between Smooth and Rough
19:19<hmmm>a not so smooth / not so rough, :p
19:19<hmmm>if that could be set
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23:03<Samu>I'm hosting a game with AIs playing multiplayer
23:05<Samu>if there is anyone interested to take a look
23:07<Samu>and my testings
23:07<Supercheese>That is a lot of AIs
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23:29<Samu>i wanted to complete my 1024x1024 testings, but it really takes a lot of time
23:29<Samu>sub tropical and toy land are missing
23:30<Samu>that would be a total of 12 games
23:31<Samu>I even planned 2048x2048, but guess I better not after all
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23:33<Samu>hi st2
23:41<Samu>who did BorkAI?
23:42<Samu>it's too extreme with bus stops
23:42<Samu>nearly every town road tile is a bus station
23:43<Samu>I see more station labels than anything else
23:48<Supercheese>marco.r is the author it seems
23:48<Samu>it does great with trucks
---Logclosed Wed May 15 00:00:06 2013