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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-05-15

---Logopened Wed May 15 00:00:06 2013
00:07<Samu>Terron is impressive to see
00:09<Samu>and I believe it's still the best one dealing with ships
00:09<Samu>but it's rare when it actually builds ships, don't know why
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00:19<Samu>and it does transfers
00:20<Samu>two industries producing the same cargo, will have one station feeding the other
00:22<Samu>it just deals really bad with river tiles, and high leveled water
00:22<Samu>rivers: none is best for Terron
00:29<Samu>Otvi is really bad with ships
00:30<Samu>the way it places docks is too far away
00:30<Samu>to get the cargo delivered to it
00:31<Samu>builds a ship service transporting goods from a refinery for example. The refinery actually produces goods, the ship actually is ready to transport goods, but the dock is in the wrong place
00:32<Samu>no profit at all, nothing loaded on the ship
00:35<Samu>some other ship routes just spell doom from the let go
00:35<Samu>the distance tilewise is short between 2 docks
00:36<Samu>but to get a ship to actually reach destination, it's just crazy, sometimes it needs to get around half the map
00:36<Samu>ships get lost
00:36<Samu>stuck somewhere
00:36<Supercheese>this is all good feedback, you should post in the appropriate AI thread on the TT forums
00:36<Supercheese>e.g. the one I linked above for BokrAI
00:36<Samu>im unable to post on the forum
00:37<Samu>plz do it for me
00:37<Supercheese>you can't register, or some other problem?
00:37<Samu>i decided to stop foruming
00:37<Samu>for my own sanity
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01:24<Samu>just did a quick testing with Terron fastforwarding 1950-2050
01:24<Samu>out of 37 ships
01:24<Samu>1 is lost
01:24<Samu>that's remarkable
01:24<Samu>in comparison with all other AIs that also use ships
01:25<Samu>it's been lost for 49 years
01:26<Samu>all others are profiting
01:29<@planetmaker>really, IRC is a bad place to note down these observations. Most likely it will completely miss those AI author's attention
01:48<@planetmaker>the forum audience certainly is a factor of 10 to 100 bigger than IRC, rather factor 100 than 10
01:49<@planetmaker>and it's a persistence medium contrary to IRC
01:50<Supercheese>Come to the forum side... we have cookies. Browser cookies.
01:51<Samu>must talk to orudge, he's got my account on hiatus
01:51<Samu>he's gonna call me big names if I ask it back
01:51<Supercheese>create a new one...?
01:51<Supercheese>shouldn't be against too many rules :P
01:52<Samu>no, it's the prejudice I'm creating towards myself
01:53<Samu>I'm crazy
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01:56<Samu>well, everytime I lose control
01:56<Samu>I'm banned
01:57<Samu>this time, I asked orudge a favor before things escalated on the forum
01:57<Samu>and he accepted to lock my account access without banning
01:58<Samu>i'm banned on several other forums
01:58<Samu>don't think I was banned on tycoon forums
02:00<@planetmaker>you weren't
02:00<Samu>banned on a tech forum
02:00<Samu>banned on a racing game forum
02:00<Samu>banned on sc2 forum
02:01<Samu>oh god
02:01<scshunt>what's the best way to watch openttd games?
02:01<Samu>it's usually my point of view conflicting with others point of view
02:01<@planetmaker>scshunt, 'watch' in what way?
02:01<@planetmaker>start openttd and join a multiplayer game, I'd say
02:01<@planetmaker>Or one of diverse youtube videos
02:02<@planetmaker>but that'll teach less as you can't ask back :-)
02:02<Samu>what was happening on that train topic was heading the direction of a ban
02:02<scshunt>if I join a multiplayer game is it ok if I don't do anything for a while?
02:03<@planetmaker>scshunt, that of course depends on the server you join. But personally I don't see why it should matter. I would not mind on mine at all
02:03<@planetmaker>Rather I would recommend ;-)
02:03<@planetmaker>Join #openttdcoop.stable
02:04<@planetmaker>usually there's a few people and usually they're also helpful
02:04<@planetmaker>and you don't need to be afraid to try stuff either
02:05<Samu>I have no idea what to do
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02:06<Samu>I like to participate in discussions but I think i'm too religious about my points
02:07<@planetmaker>it's a matter of trying to see other points, too. And being able to leave matters disagreed upon
02:09<scshunt>the key thing I like to remember is that even when I'm 100% sure about my point
02:09<scshunt>the other person might well be too
02:09<scshunt>so I try to avoid discussions where it looks like neither of us is going to convince the other
02:09<@planetmaker>yeah. There's your view. there's my view. And there's likely the 'right' view ;-)
02:10<scshunt>planetmaker: yep. The right one is always mine btw
02:10<@planetmaker>(which of course is mine :-P)
02:13<Samu>on the racing game forum, I was banned because... well I pretty much disagreed the resources wasted by the developers in bringing more cars to the game instead of fixing major game bugs and cheats almost everywhere
02:14<Samu>good to see somehow that I was right to some degree
02:14<Samu>the game is nearly unplayable now with so many cheats
02:15<Samu>and the community players adhered to some kind of anti-cheating measure being added to the game
02:15<Samu>devs are now more aware/concerned about this issue
02:16<Samu>almost every image signature I see when I skim the forum is something humurous about bringing cheaters down
02:20<Samu>just to point a few :p
02:20<Samu>that forum where I was banned
02:22<Supercheese>there's yer problem
02:23<Supercheese>EA game
02:23<Supercheese>I think they won "worst company of the year" award two years running :P
02:24<Samu>they're bad, but the player community really gets what it deserves
02:24<Samu>up until very recently
02:25<perk11>EA is bad, they closed online SimCity
02:25<Samu>sometimes the problem with EA is that they have no real direction
02:26<Samu>but they want to please as many as possible
02:26<Samu>and end up doing short-sighted decisions
02:26<perk11>how's closing a game thousands of people play pleases anyone?
02:27<Samu>or just keep the cash-flow when the emminence of something terribly wrong is about to happen, it's just luring on the horizon
02:27<Supercheese>the most recent SimCity has just been a nightmare
02:27<Samu>I heard
02:27<Supercheese>for players and company alike
02:27<Samu>but didn't follow much of it
02:27<Samu>don't have the game
02:28<perk11>well they close the Facebook version
02:28<perk11>I didn't play it either, but on the official news page there were many pages of complaints
02:29<Samu>they have a severe lack of coordination inside their company
02:29<Samu>it's really blatant that their tech support is horrible beyond belief
02:30<Samu>they outsource tech support
02:30<Samu>nothing good happens out of that decision
02:30<perk11>that's questionable
02:30<Samu>the techie assisant is either inexperient with the game we're talking about
02:31<perk11>outsourced tech support MAY answer 95% of the questions
02:31<perk11>if they have the proper answers ofc
02:31<Samu>given that EA has sooo many games, the chances to find someone who really understands the issue that is being complained is minimal
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02:33<Samu>it's a lotto
02:33<Samu>whenever someone calls tech support, it's just how it feels
02:39<Samu>gotta go sleep
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05:33<oskari89>Does someone have the current sound effect specs (for in-grf implementation)?
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05:51<Eddi|zuHause>how about checking the wiki?
05:52<oskari89>I tried, didn't found specs
06:37<@planetmaker>oskari89, what's unclear about the sound_effect callback?
06:41<V453000>trains go moo when they poo
06:44<@planetmaker>do your trains really? :-)
06:45<V453000>never say never
06:45<@planetmaker>it perfectly makes sense
06:45<goodger>my train had to make an emergency stop in a tunnel once because a flock of sheep had wandered into it
06:45<@planetmaker>you could even replace() the smoke sprites...
06:46<V453000>smoke -> moo?
06:46<@planetmaker>in terms of "poo"
06:46<@planetmaker>thus converting smoke to moo poop
06:47<@planetmaker>leaving traces on the track ;-)
06:47<@planetmaker>not sure how well that work. But would at least be a fun experiment
06:47<V453000>meaning traces on the track are absolutely must have feature.
06:47<V453000>cause slugs need slimey trails too
06:48<@planetmaker>smoke is not a single sprite as you may or may not know, but a sequence of sprites where the smoke expands
06:48<@planetmaker>you would have to draw that accordingly and match offsets
06:48<V453000>you mean to have the "remains" coded as smoke
06:49<V453000>and draw them on the actual rails
06:49<@planetmaker>but I fear it might overlay on the vehicle. And... might not work well with offsets... Not sure. You really would need to try whether it works
06:49<V453000>oh yeah that too
06:49<@planetmaker>nah, not on rails. They know not about trains passing
06:50<V453000>probably not an option then :s need slimey trails behind slugs
06:50<@planetmaker>well... smoke also trais... draw it such that it looks like slime in viewer's front of vehicle (not in vehicle's front)
06:52<@planetmaker>^ sprite numbers
06:52<V453000>but the slug leaves the trail behind it so it needs to be in vehicle rear?
06:52<@planetmaker>uhm... well. Maybe it slimes only in the front? So that most part of it can glide on the slime?
06:53<V453000>well sure but then the slime must remain after train passes for a little while on the track
06:53<@planetmaker>It's VERY limited what you can do with effect vehicles, I know
06:53<@planetmaker>it remains exactly as long as smoke remains. Not less. Not more
06:53<V453000>myeah :)
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06:56<oskari89>Planetmaker: I'm unsure if these specs on bottom of that are valid in current GRF-sound implementation
06:56<@planetmaker>ehm... maybe you should consulte the wiki with NewGRF specs?
06:57<@planetmaker>namely the NML part?
06:58<@planetmaker>Unless, of course, you want to write a *complete* sound set for OpenTTD
06:58<oskari89>No, i don't
06:58<oskari89>"If you intend to put sounds in GRF files, they must be 8-bit mono WAV files, PCM encoding, at either 11025 Hz or 22050 Hz, and they cannot exceed 64k."
06:58<oskari89>That was DaleStan's post on Finnish Rail Infrastructure Thread
06:58<oskari89>Is that valid anymore?
06:58<@planetmaker>possibly still true
06:58<V453000>hm no need it on rails :( I guess there is no way to make effect appear below vehicles
06:59<@planetmaker>what about "wrong" offsets, V453000 ? but might glitch
07:00<V453000>wrong offsets still are only "x distance from leading engine" which with variable train length is not really an option, and still the next train passing behind it would get overwritten by that
07:02<V453000>also train 265km/h fast leaves smoke very far behind itself
07:02<oskari89>Planetmaker: not much here:
07:03<oskari89>"Sounds should be uploaded as 44,100Hz, 16-bit mono WAV or FLAC files" <- on the Sound Effects Replacement
07:04<oskari89>Does it mean OpenTTD has ability to read those from NewGRF too? :P
07:04<oskari89>And no size limit
07:07<oskari89>Someone said (tm) on this channel that there isn't that limit anymore (at least i remember so)
07:12<@planetmaker>I don't know. In case of doubt: give it a try
07:18<juzza1>seems to compile with 44100khz wavs
07:18<__ln__>44100khz = 44.1 MHz
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>does it even check the content of the sound file, or just copy it verbatim?
07:23<@planetmaker>it might do the latter
07:23<@planetmaker>after all... what should it 'compile'?
07:42<juzza1>16-bit 44.1 khz wavs seem to work fine, i'll update the wiki
07:45<tycoondemon>what about the lookahead part on the rails for a signal block and slime
07:49<V453000>those are also at junctions and even the reserved track sprites would look weird :s
07:52<tycoondemon>hmmm, well I mean the way it is drawn
07:52<tycoondemon>you can modify it to look like slime
07:52<tycoondemon>and then let be drawn at a look back
07:54<V453000>you can modify it yes, but then the slime will also appear a lot in front of the train in any PBS pathing, also on junctions regardless if there is a train or nor, and it will also be in greyscale when in train reserving
07:55<V453000>plus all of the tiles would look the same
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>the path reservations are just recolourings of the normal track overlay sprites, i don't think you can replace them individually
07:59<V453000>that is what I am saying :) overlay, junctions
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, (NewGRF) effect vehicles below the train are even desirable for "normal" train sets. like sparks of 3rd rail vehicles
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09:06<V453000>I totally agree Eddi|zuHause :>
09:06<V453000>in fact I do not understand how could a set exist without that
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09:06<Eddi|zuHause>or andythenorth's everlasting issue with ship smoke
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09:47<tycoondemon>may not too much eyecandy for openttd\
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10:16<juzza1>can someone remove the older finnish trainset from bananas
10:17<juzza1>there was a mistake in the readme, i replaced the older with a new version, somehow it got same Unique ID and now the donwloading is messed up
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10:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes, only the GRF content is considered for unique id
10:19<juzza1>when downloading, the readme is still the old one, at least for me
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10:22<@planetmaker>juzza1: you need to create a new version for your newgrf
10:22<@planetmaker>and bundle it with a new readme
10:23<@planetmaker>don't you update the newgrf's version anyway...?
10:24<juzza1>well i wanted to keep the same version Bananas version, since there was only a minor error in the name of the grf and readme
10:24<juzza1>-one version
10:24<@planetmaker>minor error fix = change = new version. Just increase the version by a minor step
10:25<@planetmaker>or is the readme not "part" of the grf?
10:25<@planetmaker>openttd also changes for each translation
10:25<@planetmaker>it's also minor
10:25<@planetmaker>and it's good practise
10:25<@planetmaker>how could otherwise anyone know that there's something new, if it's called the same?
10:26<juzza1>the "real" version would be updated anyways, it was just the "name" version (in this case 0.5.0) which i wanted to keep the same
10:26<juzza1>or revision, rather
10:27<@planetmaker>if you change the "real" version, that is within the grf as you should, the unique ID would have changed and you would not have seen that error
10:28<juzza1>how is it even possible then to have two Finnish Trainsets with identical version and Unique ID in my banans manager
10:29<juzza1>and the newer one had different grf, but got the same Unique ID
10:29<@planetmaker>how do you make releases? Don't you commit a tag to the repository?
10:32<juzza1>ill just start from the beginning
10:32<juzza1>i never made any releases before
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10:37<@planetmaker>juzza1: and the DevZone can (and will) build that version as you tagged it
10:37<@planetmaker>when it built that, you can just download the zip from there, it includes readme, license, changelog as in the repo, all conveniently bundled
10:37<@planetmaker>and just upload that zip to bananas
10:37<@planetmaker>and it will always be unique :-)
10:39<@planetmaker>uh... I wonder whether release builds are enabled...
10:40<@planetmaker>yes, they are. It might just take a bit time till it's built
10:42<juzza1>yea im using that same makefile on my pc to build, so it should be the same
10:42<@planetmaker>only if you updated to the tag
10:42<@planetmaker>so... not without you doing that :-)
10:43<@planetmaker>and don't forget to update to tip afterwards again, or you'll have to merge :-)
10:43<@planetmaker>hg up 0.5.1
10:43<@planetmaker>tortoise surely has an equivalent button
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10:50<Pulec>where is setting for realistic acceleration for trains
10:50<Pulec>i cant seem to find it in latest openttd
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>checked that you did not filter for "basic" settings only?
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10:58<alluke>shouldnt no be blue instead of green?
10:58<alluke>found this picture
10:59<Pulec>oh thats new Eddi|zuHause thx
11:03<alluke>and why is ed called ic2 coach
11:04<alluke>theyre used in normal ic trains too
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11:23<oskari89>Alluke: It is IC2 to differ it from "normal" IC coaches
11:24<alluke>aint the word "doubledecker" enough for that?
11:25<oskari89>Alluke: Try the newest version, it is fixed on that :P
11:25<oskari89>On bananas you will find Finnish Trainset 0.5.2
11:26<alluke>a release
11:27<V453000>same version as nuts :D
11:27<juzza1>only took a decade
11:28<alluke>12 long years
11:29<tycoondemon>can you update trainsets in savegames?
11:29<tycoondemon>with older versions allready applied?
11:31<alluke>ive had fts in my game from r46 till the current release
11:31<alluke>btw why doesnt flirt have red rear lights?
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>no, that option has been disabled
11:32<alluke>you mean modding grfs in-game?
11:32<oskari89>Yes, without player being developer :P
11:33<alluke>good thing i am :P
11:33<oskari89>Backwards compability is broken at versio r130 though at current release
11:33<Pulec>is there some "plugin" that would allow passengers from station A exit the train in the station F?
11:33<oskari89>Can't be guaranteed
11:34<Pulec>because all passengers exit in station B, and that is just meh
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11:35<Eddi|zuHause>there is no "plugin" like that. or depending how far you define the word "plugin", yes, there is a "plugin" like that.
11:36<Pulec>newgrf or somethin?
11:36<Pulec>any name pls?
11:37<alluke>make train load in station a and unload in station f?
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>since i'm feeling generous today:
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>note that it's not a "plugin" in any kind of sense of the word. it's a full-grown fork. an independent version of openttd
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>and as such, it doesn't offer the same kind of version-cross-compatibility as you are used to
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>so a game started with this version can only be finished with the exact same version, no updates, no going back.
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>you have been warned!
11:40<tycoondemon>save games cant be converted
11:41<V453000>[do not use stupid trash like cargodist] :)
11:48<alluke>i think cargodist is great
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>V453000 hates everything that is great, it's an honour to be hated by V453000 :)
11:49<V453000>replacing junctions with stations is a totally great indeed
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11:52<V453000>sure sure
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12:16<FLHerne>V453000: Of course it is. An excess of efficient junctions looks silly, and using flat junctions makes it hard to carry all the traffic
12:17*FLHerne tends to use stations instead of flyovers :P
12:18<alluke>realistic gameplay ftw
12:18<tycoondemon>how do you replace junctnios with stations :S
12:19<@planetmaker>delete + build?
12:20<tycoondemon>but how would a tsation funtyction like a junctieon?
12:20<V453000>by redistributing cargo?
12:21<FLHerne>tycoondemon: Transfer cargo between routes without interworking trains
12:21<Pinkbeast>There's nothing stopping you doing that with transfer orders in a non-cargod*st world
12:21<V453000>the ideal solution to a yacd game is build only a web of station between each other, not a single junction because those are needless complication, the cargo distribution is so automatic that the station is the ultimate solution
12:22<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: Yeah, but for bi-directional things (pax/mail) CDist makes it much better
12:22<FLHerne>In trunk OTTD, you get cargo going backwards with bi-directional transfers
12:24<Pinkbeast>Fair point, although I still think the objection that in a cargod*st world you can build absurd layouts is ridiculous - in a non-cargod*st world you can build absurd layouts
12:25<alluke>i use the cardodist only for pax and mail
12:25<alluke>manual for freight
12:26<V453000>I wasnt saying anything about absurd layouts nor do I think they are related to cargodist
12:26<tycoondemon>ah transfer stations
12:26<tycoondemon>well I like the transfer system
12:26<tycoondemon>but only up to a point
12:26<Pinkbeast>I don't like cargodist for most freight, it tends to produce suspension-of-disbelief difficulties like a train carefully shuffling some lumps of coal from A to B so it can shuffle some other lumps of coal from B to A (and which end does it full load at?)
12:26<V453000>all I am saying is that the concept of making station-station web the only option which makes sense, is not a good patch
12:27<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: That actually happens in real life ;-)
12:27<tycoondemon>I can agree with V
12:27<Pinkbeast>V453: It's not the "only option which makes sense" - this is just your usual problem that you think everyone plays the game exactly how you do.
12:27<FLHerne>Powerstations 'blend' different types of coal from different sources, so there actually are services that transport coal in both directions
12:28<@planetmaker>how does that make sense, FLHerne ?
12:28<FLHerne>planetmaker: The last bit?
12:28<Pinkbeast>FLH: I know, but in the OTTD world coal is not differentiated.
12:28<V453000>it is the only logical option caused by the distribution, of course that means I am wrong
12:28<Pinkbeast>... and it is, as observed, a very awkward fit with the orders system
12:29<@planetmaker>the implication of your statement. "power plants use different coal sources" -> "coal is transported somewhere two-ways"
12:29<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: How do you know? You can't tell holidaymakers from commuters (except ECS), but I still imagine there being such
12:30<Pinkbeast>planet: It certainly implies that it is possible that coal will be transported two ways
12:30<tycoondemon>more complexity is more fun
12:30<FLHerne>planetmaker: At least in the UK, there are services that move coal in both directions between two ports or power stations
12:30<tycoondemon>we need much more carcos and such
12:30<FLHerne>planetmaker: To get the correct ratio of different types of coal in each place
12:31<FLHerne>That happens with wood too, actually
12:31<Pinkbeast>FLH: I see what you're saying, but for my part, it too much exposes the "This coal is from Africa, I will pay a lot for it" thing, where apparently fungible cargo is transported much further than is necessary.
12:31<Pinkbeast>I can live with it for things like FIRS *supplies where presumably each factory makes something different
12:32<@planetmaker>really? Hm, for the sake of exhause or so... might actually make sense. Never thought that it was done that large scale
12:32<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: Different types of coal and wood *are* different though
12:32<frosch123>V453000: maybe cdist is only a stepping stone for a more interesting pax generation mechanic :p
12:33<FLHerne>e.g. Almost all UK preserved railways use either Welsh or Polish coal, but not Scottish
12:33<Pinkbeast>FLH: I'm not arguing they're not; I'm just saying, personally, I find it unsatisfying - and I think the incompatibility with the usual orders mechanic is an issue
12:33<@planetmaker>oh, quak :-)
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12:33<frosch123>moin :p
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12:34<Eddi|zuHause><V453000> the ideal solution to a yacd game is build only a web of station between each other, not a single junction because those are needless complication, the cargo distribution is so automatic that the station is the ultimate solution <-- that is only the best solution if you leave out loading times, etc.
12:35<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: What incompatibility with the orders mechanic?
12:35<Pinkbeast>FLH: Which end of a bidirectonal route do the trains full load at?
12:36<V453000>Eddi consider that stations also take care of: 1. "local destinations", 2. Any destination which is added when industry increases production, 3. literally any destination that the network is connected to, completely automatically. No new train orders, no new groups, only necessary to have all connected stations between their neighbour.
12:36<V453000>loading times and total travel time is not really important
12:36<FLHerne>The start of whichever direction carries more cargo...?
12:36<Pinkbeast>Also in a non-cargod*st game it's quite handy to leave out junctions and just build a mass of independent producer-consumer lines.
12:36<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: That works perfectly well WITH CDist, too
12:37<Pinkbeast>FLH: Which as industry production changes may change, or when cargodist goes into its usual feedback issues...
12:37<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: I don't find it changes unpredictably very often
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: the main difference is that you *MUST* carry all cargo on all links, otherwise you get a bottleneck somewhere and your profit plummets as the cargo goes in circles without reaching its destination
12:38<FLHerne>Of course, if I add a new source or destination of [cargo], I have to check on things
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>in trunk, you can just ignore excess passengers
12:38<V453000>sure, but that is trivial to maintain
12:38<Pinkbeast>In particular cargodist will notice that the link capacity is the same in both directions and try to send the same amount of cargo down it, which in a complex network will mean the extra-cargo end fluctuates nastily
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>and you have to adjust your tram/bus/local network as the town expands
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>(assuming you don't "cheat" by connecting stations on opposite sides of the town)
12:39<V453000>well I was talking about cargo in this case, but sure, passengers work about the same way
12:39<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: If it actually manages that (it doesn't often) you have half the trains full-load at one end and half at the other ;-)
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>and if you try to use full load on the transfer stations, you need to adjust capacities in a way that you won't sit there with 99% loaded
12:40<Pinkbeast>At any given time, then, one end has trains accumulating waiting for full loads...
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>less a problem with passengers, more with cargo
12:41<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: And?
12:41<FLHerne>You have to wait for full loads in trunk, too...
12:41<alluke>planertmaker: just noticed, why do swedish rails have grey gravel on the sides bbut brown between the sleepers?
12:41<Pinkbeast>FLH: The platforms fill. Now the trains that will full load at the other end can't get in (unless you're going to use waypoints to split them up or something)...
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12:45<@planetmaker>it has brown everywhere. but it has cable lines left and right
12:47<@planetmaker> <--- look closely, Alice3
12:47<@planetmaker>grr... alluke ^
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12:47<alluke>whos alice :P
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12:47<@planetmaker>"who the f*** is Alice" ;-)
12:48<alluke>are in in wonderland about her? :P
12:48<alluke>are you*
12:48<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: In the specific case where the balance of cargo is changing frequently, you shouldn't get _all_ the trains in one direction piled up at the end...
12:49<FLHerne>If you do, you don't need trains full-loading at that end anyway
12:49<Pinkbeast>FLH: At any given time, trains are piling up at one end. I mistrust any arrangement where trains that full-load share platforms with trains that don't.
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12:51<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: Then you have holding sidings for empty trains before the loading platforms, or simply more platforms than trains?
12:52<FLHerne>The latter is ugly, though
12:52<Pinkbeast>It also might be a very large number.
12:52<alluke>whata bout looooong trains?
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12:53<Pinkbeast>I think eventually you'd end up with 4 tracks - completely independent infrastructure for the two directions in the link
12:54<alluke>6x10 station is good for huge industries
12:54<@planetmaker>alluke, I was more thinking of
12:55<@planetmaker>(and that's why I put it into quotes)
12:55<alluke>pretty good cover
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12:56<alluke>aint that dutch
12:56<alluke>read the comments
12:56<Pinkbeast>10 tiles is about as long as I make things, that's about what an UKRS 9F can move uphill with x3 cargo weight
12:56<alluke>the original song doesnt have the who the uck is alice shouts
12:56<alluke>bitch please
12:56<alluke>use realistic stuff
12:57<@planetmaker>right, indeed, they're not the original. But they're who made the song popular
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i think 15 tiles was the longest i built
12:57<alluke>modern hoppers load 60-70 tons
12:58<V453000>yeah or 12459 tons
12:58<V453000>great for the game
12:58<alluke>in ukrs the biggest one loads 25 tons thats closer to 30s stuff
12:58<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: Ooh, another UKRS user :-)
12:59<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: I don't think I've ever ended up with separate tracks
12:59<alluke>with fts i can build 10 tile coal train that loads 1232 tons
12:59<FLHerne>I have tried quite a lot of different order/station/layout options, thoug
12:59<alluke>884t empty weight
13:00<alluke>3 locos
13:00<Pinkbeast>FLH: Always. Although the trouble these days is remembering it's a long way from the 2-2-2 Planet to anything that can move more than 3 pieces of cheese
13:01<Pinkbeast>*2-2-0, bother
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>i thought 2-2-2 was the patentee
13:01<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: Ah, I've been starting in 1920 recently
13:01<FLHerne>I used to start in 1850/70, but stopped bothering :P
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe i played railroad tycoon too long ago
13:03<Pinkbeast>FLH: Last time I did a proper game, I started with EGRVTS horse trams before the invention of the locomotive, which was... different.
13:03<FLHerne>Pinkbeast: AARGH!
13:03<FLHerne>I tried starting in 1800 with Sailing Ships a couple of times, but didn't get very far before I got bored
13:05<Pinkbeast>I used Sailing Ships as well, but their vast expense means they tend to lose money on all but carefully selected routes.
13:05<Pinkbeast>Part of the trouble is that cargo payment rates are a poor fit with an era when all transport is very slow
13:07<Pinkbeast>Also what I really wanted was canal boats
13:08<V453000>wetrails? :>
13:11<V453000>k :<
13:11<alluke>real boats are more fun
13:12<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, openttd knows different ship speeds for canals and oceans. so it's really just a matter of newgrf
13:12<@planetmaker>FISH once had a few iirc... not sure it still has
13:12<Pinkbeast>planet: I know. All I'm saying is, when I was starting pre-locomotive with Sailing Ships and horse trams, there weren't any sensible canal boats available
13:13<alluke>imma kick pikkaind from my game
13:13<alluke>completely fed up with the way they behave
13:14<FLHerne>planetmaker: It has :-)
13:14<FLHerne>And very nice they are too, but not in 1800
13:14<FLHerne>Horse-canal-boats! :D
13:15<@planetmaker>:-) feasible to make actually... canals have a border... but... not feasible to make glitch free on open water
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13:17<alluke>is it possible to play with ogfx+ industries and oe or two ecs vectors?
13:20<@planetmaker>no. Nor will it be
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13:23<@planetmaker>the request makes sense. If you know not how NewGRFs work and that industry IDs and cargo IDs are not NewGRF independent and that such things would result in things like I've seen recently where some guy combined newcargos with ECS
13:23<@planetmaker>Result he had two times food.
13:23<@planetmaker>Thus he shipped food to where it was required. But it was the wrong food
13:24<alluke>wrong food :P
13:25<@planetmaker>yes. your question would result in the exact same thing, alluke
13:25<@planetmaker>if either NewGRF wouldn't say "go, don't try to combine us with the other"
13:26<alluke>damn, ecs doesnt have parameter to turn off building restrictions
13:26<@planetmaker>and things like a farm growing steel and chemicals on the fields while requiring tourists instead of fertilizer or so
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13:28<alluke>oopsie daisy
13:28<alluke>but tourists could be replaced with slaves :D
13:28<@planetmaker>anyway... game of thrones evening. see you later :D
13:28<oskari89>Alluke: No Red Alert 2 or Yuri's Revenge here :D
13:29<oskari89>Slaves did remind of Yuri's Revenge
13:29<alluke>whats that
13:29<alluke>if theyre games i havent played either
13:30<oskari89>Beware, it's very addictive
13:30<alluke>but imagine: transporting slaves from cities to the fields :P
13:31<alluke>grain could be replaced with cocaine or opium
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13:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25245 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2013-05-15 17:47:18 UTC)
13:47<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:47<@DorpsGek>czech - 1 changes by micropro_cz
13:47<@DorpsGek>russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:47<@DorpsGek>gaelic - 47 changes by GunChleoc
13:47<@DorpsGek>slovak - 1 changes by micropro_cz
13:47<@Alberth>oddink mr Wolf01
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13:59<FLHerne>How did I break OTTD enough to get 140 lines of compile errors!?
13:59*FLHerne is clearly a very successful idiot :D
14:01<HellTiger>days back i had searched via apt-file cause i never found the real packages for some games.
14:02<frosch123>FLHerne: when using templates you have a decent chance for a single error taking 140 lines of output :p
14:04<@Alberth>deleting a { or a ; works also great for getting many errors :)
14:04<FLHerne>I think I forgot to #include some stuff, mostly seems to be 'where did you pull that function from?'
14:04<@Alberth>for bonus errors, also remove a }
14:07<Wolf01>and for more bonus runtime errors forget the () on conditionals
14:07<@Alberth>using = instead of == also works great for spending an hour staring at a single line of code
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14:10<Wolf01>and == instead of === could be more nasty when you really can't figure out why 1 === 1 doesn't work
14:10<Wolf01>or when 1 == '1' should not work
14:12<NGC3982>FLHerne: :D
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14:21<Eddi|zuHause>hm, the clouds go backwards
14:21<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: What clouds?
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14:21<@Alberth>they travel in time!
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>xkcd misses one of the most important catchphrases: "same procedure as every year"
14:41<alluke>juzza1: i think i found a bug
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: it would be helpful if you actually told what you think the bug is
14:46<alluke>cant you see that yourself
14:46<alluke>fully loaded wagons show half loaded (steel?) sprites
14:47<alluke>wow that was fast
14:48<frosch123>maybe it was a teaser bug
14:48<frosch123>some bug you add on purpose, to make someone happy who is searching for them
14:48<frosch123>and then impress him by fixing it even faster
14:49<juzza1>yep :)
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15:00<alluke>is there a way to turn off aa from photoshop text
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15:02<juzza1>select "none" from the menu next to the text aligment buttons
15:03<juzza1>with the type tool selected
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15:20<alluke>attempted to draw a low level asphalt platform
15:20<alluke>70s style
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15:55<oskari89>Alluke: Post it to FRISS thread
15:56<alluke>ill show it to you first
15:56<alluke>its just a hack after all
15:56<oskari89>Not bad at all
15:57<alluke>slapped friss basetile onto dutch platform and drew a stripe
15:57<alluke>and lowered it by 1px
15:57<oskari89>Seems good
15:57<alluke>the problem is to make the stripe look good and narrow
15:57<alluke>cant use yellow only because it gets too fat
15:58<oskari89>It's kind of good as it is
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>the "joy" of pixel art: use completely different colours that kinda blend into each other on higher distances
15:59<alluke>how would you belnd yellow and black
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16:04<Supercheese>does anybody happen to know what angle autogyros cruise at? nose level with horizon? nose down like helicopters?
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16:21<juzza1>i would say nose level
16:22<juzza1>but don't go fly one with my instructions
16:23<alluke>are dr16 and sr1/2 the only locos that are able to provide 1500v power?
16:25<juzza1>i've really no idea, because i basically knew nothing about finnish trains before i started to create the code for the set... and i still dont know much
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16:26<juzza1>Supercheese: kinda makes sense if it flew level, because its almost like a plane with a spinning wing
16:26<Supercheese>Yeah, I'll go for level flight, these youtube videos seem to indicate that too
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16:29<Supercheese>But it seems the Rotodyne has to have a brief period of nose-down flight to build airspeed, then it transitions to level autogyro flight
16:29<Supercheese>crazy hybrid gyrocopter
16:32<juzza1>interesting concept
16:33<Supercheese>"compound gyroplane"
16:33<Supercheese>coming soon to an OTTD near you ;)
16:34<juzza1>nice :)
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18:44<FLHerne>It seems that MHL breaks OGFX+ Landscape's snowline-height settings
18:47<FLHerne>Regardless of what's set, the snowline height is somewhere >50
18:48<FLHerne>I wonder if it's 255-(15-setting)?
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18:53<FLHerne>No, both of my above points are wrong
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18:57<FLHerne>That's weird, now it's just setting * 32
18:57<FLHerne>Which makes much more sense, but I'm sure it wasn't like that before
18:57<FLHerne>Maybe I'm just tired
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19:26<Eddi|zuHause>you're not making any sense at all
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19:30<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Yep. Definitely tired then :P
19:33<FLHerne>Anyway, I have CDist, LargeMaps, MHL and some other stuff working with latest trunk now. :-)
19:34<FLHerne>So I can go to bed and quit with the nonsensical gibbering :D
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---Logclosed Thu May 16 00:00:10 2013