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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-05-24

---Logopened Fri May 24 00:00:26 2013
00:08-!-Samu [] has joined #openttd
00:08<Samu>i found a bug
00:09<Samu>buy helicopter
00:09<Samu>destroy all airports
00:09<Samu>send helicopter to depot
00:10<Samu>bug: can't send aircraft to hangar... can't send aircraft to hangar...
00:11<Samu>just the reasoning
00:11<Samu>made me jiggle
00:12<Samu>had some helis going around from heliports
00:13<Samu>so that's what it said when i was trying to send one to a non-existant depot
00:13<Samu>was gonna replace it
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02:40<Samu>anyone around?
02:40<juzza1>can anyone else play thes midi files here directly in firefox? i have quicktime plugin installed & MIME settings configured properly
02:41<juzza1>still says "A plugin is needed to display this content."
02:41<Samu>i use ie10
02:41<Samu>does it matter?
02:41<juzza1>it's a different browser, so yes
02:43<Samu>it doesn't play
02:43<Samu>opening multimedia element, looks like some windows media player window but doesn't play anything, just says that message
02:48<Samu>looks like I also need some plugin
02:51<Samu>still opening... yeah I'm gonna wait forever
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02:58<Supercheese>just use Winamp/Media Player Classic/Whatever
02:58<Supercheese>Firefox hates midi, apparently
02:59<szaman>everybody hates midi
02:59<juzza1>it works on other sites, seems like the method used in the forums doesnt work that well with midi
03:03<@planetmaker>a bit difficult to open. no vlc. no quicktime. only quicktime 7
03:03<@planetmaker>maybe that's the reason
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03:13<juzza1><object width="320" height="285" type="video/x-ms-wmv" data="./download/file.php?id=163877"> this is the problem, it's not wmv video
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03:48<Samu>someone was attempting to hack the other day
03:48<Samu>he wanted to give me £20.000.000
03:49<Samu>I got the message that someone gave my company the £20.000.000 but I didn't receive that cash at all
03:49<Samu>and he didn't have £20.000.000 either
03:50<Samu>and got a desync error shortly after
03:50<Samu>should I be concerned?
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03:50<Samu>he got a desync, not me
03:50<Samu>to make it clear
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04:44<Cadmus>Hello. I'm back on OpenTTD after a break and noticed AV8 now has maximum range for aircraft but that this number comes from core. How is it calculated? Is it pythagoras, manhattan distance or something else?
04:48<Cadmus>I'd hate to build an airport and be one square out on range, particularly if I'm paying for a refuelling airport in the middle :P
04:53<juzza1>cargo delivery rates are calculated with manhattan distances, so my bet would be on that
04:55<Cadmus>juzza1: Thanks, I might have a play on the weekend. I'm on a C-shaped archipelago at the moment so the distance between the tips is all-critical :)
04:55<juzza1>nope, seems it's euclidean after all (from
04:56<juzza1>or better yet, this one
04:56<Cadmus>Thanks juzza1
04:57<@planetmaker>We don't guarantee one or the other distance metric ;-)
04:58<Cadmus>Time for some testing then, for a start what square of the airport does it use? (I would guess top left)
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05:00<@planetmaker>Likely av8 gives distance in euclidean, though
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05:08<Eddi|zuHause>"the certuficate for this server expired"
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06:11<Samu>hey, a suggestion
06:11<Samu>ships cargo type displayed on ship list
06:12<Samu>a small icon indicator
06:22<tycoondemon>he, a suggestion
06:23<tycoondemon>make a feature request
06:23<juzza1>what about refittable ships?
06:23<tycoondemon>a nuts ship grf
06:27<Samu>that is the reason
06:28<Samu>yate cargo ship
06:28<Samu>looks the same no matter what cargo it carries
06:28<Samu>i want to distinguish them somehow
06:28<Samu>from a big list
06:30<Samu>perhaps do that only for refitable vehicles
06:33<Samu>Still about ships, the loading indicator
06:33<Samu>overlaps with other ships also loading from the same dock
06:34<Samu>maybe hide ships with 0% load
06:34<Samu>hide the indicator for those
06:35<Samu>or hmm, prioritize the highest load indicator and hide the others
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07:05<@planetmaker>Samu, it's up to the NewGRF to show different cargos or not
07:09<Samu>planetmaker: those icons displaying what's waiting on a station
07:09<Samu>what do you call that
07:09<@planetmaker>cargo icons?
07:09<Samu>there's an icon for each cargo
07:10<Samu>place that icon next to a ship when listing ships
07:10<Samu>the ship still looks the same
07:10<Samu>but there's that icon next to it
07:15<Samu>ship number on top, the profit last year icon in the middle, the cargo type on bottom?
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07:15<Samu>there's some room there
07:15<@planetmaker>I see what you mean. Makes sense
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>but do you find that room on train/rv lists as well?
07:16<__ln__>so.. were you wearing a uniform or vulcan ears?
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>it should be done for all vehicle types the same way
07:16<@planetmaker>__ln__, no
07:16<Samu>trains don't have enough room
07:16<Samu>maybe reorganizing the icons
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: nobody does that outside some early preview events
07:17<Samu>top left is number
07:17<Samu>top right is whatever
07:17<Samu>bottom left is profit last year
07:17<Samu>bottom right, cargo icon
07:17<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: i've seen uniform(s) in the premiere of the previous one.
07:17<Samu>and to the right of those 4 icons, the train
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: yes, but that was 2 weeks ago :p
07:18<Samu>and the rest of info
07:19<Samu>problem might be a large number
07:19<Samu>top left+right combined as a number?
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>the only time i remember actually wearing "costume" to a movie was "7 dwarfs 2", where all of us had won some dwarf hat in a previous event, so we wore them when we went to the movie
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: keep in mind that these vehicles may carry multiple cargos
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07:21<Samu>oh, aircraft
07:21<Samu>hmm i dont know then
07:22<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that room could be made, probably. Though trains is difficult with articulated and different refits
07:22<@planetmaker>Samu, so, please go and make concept studies on how the GUI should look like
07:22<@planetmaker>no programming. But like graphics work to show what it could look like
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>"mock up" it's called :)
07:22<Samu>paint skills :p
07:23<Samu>or photosho+p
07:23<@planetmaker>thanks Eddi|zuHause. I was searching the word, but it was eluding me
07:23<@planetmaker>no skills needed there really either
07:23<@planetmaker>not much at least
07:24<Samu>what is articulated?
07:24<@planetmaker>a tram with several wagons for instance
07:24<Samu>ah and each wagon can refit?
07:25<@planetmaker>can have different cargo, yes
07:25<@planetmaker>and... what to do with invisible vehicles? which some newgrfs use?
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>IMHO it should be for the whole consist
07:26<@planetmaker>that might be easier, yes
07:26<@planetmaker>thus a set of icons for each articulated thing. but separate for each wagon in a train
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean for the whole train
07:27<@planetmaker>hm... Not sure
07:27<@planetmaker>it makes sense in the depot to know which wagon is what. For re-arranging trains
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>i use the train details window for that
07:28<@planetmaker>bad for comparing trains
07:29<@planetmaker>and bad for changing a train
07:29<@planetmaker>and type of cargo is one of the most important info really
07:29<@planetmaker>questionable though... how does cargo display work with autorefit?
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>the vehicle only has one current cargo
07:30<@planetmaker>yes, it has
07:31<Samu>i was thinking what the vehicle is capable of carrying, not what it is currently carrying
07:32<@planetmaker>that's virtually impossible to determine, samu
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07:32<Samu>why's that?
07:33<Samu>shows what type of cargo
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07:33<Samu>not how much of it
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: he means capacity
07:34<@planetmaker>it's the newgrf's decision. And maybe you cannot refit to coal on mondays. and fridays only at half capacity
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: again, that is NOT what he meant
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>he means what it's capable of LOADING, not what it's capable of REFITTING
07:35<Samu>when it refits to something else, it will display another cargo icon
07:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yes. And an autorefit vehicle, is capable of loading coal, iron ore, copper ore and milk, maybe
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no
07:36<@planetmaker>of course?!
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's capable of loading <whatever was loaded last>
07:36<@planetmaker>if empty, it's capable to load anything it can autorefit to
07:37<@planetmaker>explain your 'no'
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>it has exactly one cargo it is refitted to
07:37<@planetmaker>and it refits to the other, if the station has the other
07:37<Samu>autorefit means it will refit to anything it finds waiting to load on a station?
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>the vehicle has no idea whether at the next station it is loading, autorefit is even enabled
07:38<@planetmaker>autorefit means whatever the vehicle allows it to refit to at station or depot at the cost it wants it
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and we decided it should NOT CONSIDER REFITS
07:38<@planetmaker>*you* decided
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>only what it is currently refitted to
07:38<@planetmaker>in this discussion's middle somewhere
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>no, i was trying to tell you what Samu was suggesting
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>as you clearly had something entirely different in your mind
07:39<Samu>that would be kinda like implicit orders?
07:39<@planetmaker>sure. I'd say "your interpretation of what he tries to suggest"
07:40<Samu>they show up but no one likes to see those orders
07:40<Samu>messes up the vehicle list
07:40<Samu>on a specific station
07:45<Samu>is autorefit the same as this example: send cargo ship loading goods from dock1, deliver them to dock2, go to depot, refit to oil, go to dock3 to load oil, go to dock 1, unload oil, go depot and refit to goods?
07:45<Samu>well, oil is a bad example, ok, grain~
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07:47<juzza1>autorefitting works without a depot
07:47<@planetmaker>autorefit basically allows to skip the depot visits. It's meant to allow loading iron ore or copper ore w/o visiting depot for 'refit'
07:48<juzza1>so no, it's not the same
07:48<@planetmaker>or to allow a container freighter to carry either fruits or goods or wool.
07:49<Pinkbeast>And it typically only works on cargos that are fairly uncontroversially similar - coal and iron ore, say - where it doesn't make sense that you need a formal refit to empty a hopper of one and fill it with the other
07:49<@planetmaker>where it works is entirely the newgrf's decision
07:49<Samu>i've never played NewGRF :(
07:49<@planetmaker>you may allow to load either milk or crude oil in the same vehicle w/o refit. Bon appetit ;-)
07:50<Samu>i understand the problem now
07:51<Samu>so it is sorta like those implicit orders showing up out of nowhere
07:51<@planetmaker>anyway, one *could* decide to only display current cargo
07:51<Samu>what is the timer on those implicit orders?
07:51<@planetmaker>and no, it's not like that at all. And there's no timer anywhere
07:51<Samu>it cleans up sometimes
07:52<Samu>i have 2 orders but sometimes a 3rd once shows up grayed out
07:52<Samu>as time passes by, it can disappear
07:52<Samu>like some extra road added to the route
07:52<Samu>a bus then won't go to where it was picking up the implicit order
07:53<Samu>what is happening in this example then?
07:54<@planetmaker>it went there once. but not the next time it made the tour
07:54<Samu>hmm I see
07:56<Samu>could work similar to this for autorefit?
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the connection
07:57<Samu>if the journey does have the same orders the whole time, it will pick the same cargo types, right?
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>no, it depends on what cargo is waiting on the station
08:01<Samu>well, implicit orders aren't 100% proof either
08:02<Samu>maybe some compromise, what cargo type it carried last journey?
08:07<juzza1>btw if you need to differentiate vehicles in the vehicle list right now, you can rename them. renamed vehicles have their name shown in the vehicle list
08:09<Pinkbeast>Or sort by capacity by cargo type?
08:10<Samu>that was where I first based my idea, but... seems a bit random at times
08:11<Samu>it carries 160 units of a lot of different cargo types
08:11<Samu>yate cargo ship still looks the same, so there's still no easy way to distinguish
08:12<Samu>they just happen to have the same cargo be grouped
08:12<Samu>on the list
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>my solution to that is usually group them by route or by cargo type
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>but it's tedious to set up for a running game
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>and to keep it tidy once you add vehicles
08:23<@planetmaker>I usually go by route for the groups
08:23<@planetmaker>But often that includes only one cargo
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08:25<Eddi|zuHause>i usually do routes for passenges, and cargo type for cargo
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>as there aren't that many cargo routes usually
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08:37<Samu>my paint skills are terrible
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08:39<Samu>i'm coming up with something more as well, it's shaping up
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08:52<Samu>I am soooo slow
08:52<Samu>where can i upload images?
08:52<Samu>skydrive, brb
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08:55<Samu>here it is
08:55<Samu>that's an image
08:55<Samu>I'm going to edit another image for ship listing
08:55<Samu>will be about what I was talking here
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08:58<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't load
08:59<Samu>let me shrink link
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09:07<@planetmaker>that definitely won't work with autorefit, samu. Nor need not work without it either
09:07<@planetmaker>e.g. I buy a passenger train. And give it those orders. Then the symbols will never be correct
09:08<Samu>so forget that one
09:08<Samu>i'm editing the other image, finding those little icons is slowing me
09:10<@planetmaker>oh, even caching would not work... with shared orders, trains of different cargo and refit capability could share the same set of orders... difficult to display then.
09:27<Samu>i'm heading to bed next
09:28<Samu>that is the other image
09:28<Samu>or this link'ed.png?psid=1
09:29<Samu>if it carries moar cargo types
09:29<Samu>push ships to the right and put more cargo types next to others
09:30<Samu>ships, or trains, or whatever vehicle
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09:30<Samu>or grid the cargo types by 2 for trains and road vehicles, 3 for aircraft and ships
09:31<Samu>pushes to the right by each 2 or 3 cargo
09:32<Samu>i have to go to bed, say something so i can go :p
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09:43<Samu>well I'm going
09:43<Samu>can't stay any longer or I die on my desk
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11:31*LordAro waves
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11:35<LordAro>hai planetmaker
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12:44-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
12:45<@Rubidium>hi Alberth
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25280 /trunk/src/lang (finnish.txt korean.txt) (2013-05-24 17:45:11 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 10 changes by jpx_
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 22 changes by telk5093
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13:56<Wolf01>hello :D
13:57<Wolf01>today I finished building my new lego 42000 (f1 car), it, is, enourmous
13:58<@Alberth>now you can ride it?
13:58<Wolf01>yes, but it won't move until I'll purchase the power pack
13:59<@Alberth>sell your car, as you now can use the f1 car
13:59<Wolf01>too bad I can't use it on road, I need a license plate :P
14:00<@Alberth>how big is it?
14:00<Wolf01>I think it's the largest lego I purchased so far
14:01<Wolf01>(the power pack leaves me with a big question: what is the purpouse to add a motor if you need to put your hands on it to steer)
14:02<@Alberth>doesn't make a lot of sense imho, unless you put in a radio controlled steer as well
14:02<Wolf01>or you have a big room and let the car go in circles
14:02<@Alberth>perhaps it is too heavy to push manually ? :)
14:02<juzza1>buy the rock crawler, and get the good stuff from it :P
14:02<Wolf01>nah :D
14:03<@Alberth>maybe if you put the power pack in as well :p
14:04<Wolf01>the next one will be the excavator (42006)
14:05<juzza1>lego will release the biggest technic so far later this year
14:05<juzza1>i think that is a must for me
14:09<@Rubidium>you mean:
14:10<juzza1>haha :D yes indeed
14:10<Wolf01>that's wonderful
14:11<Wolf01>at first I believed it was built with large pieces, but then I looked better
14:12<juzza1>i like how it even has the lego text on top of the studs
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14:51<Guest6522>they're a bit dusty
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15:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r25281 trunk/src/object_gui.cpp (2013-05-24 19:08:35 UTC)
15:08<@DorpsGek>-Add: When opening the object-build window, make the last selected class visible in the class selector (sbr).
15:11<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r25282 trunk/src/object_gui.cpp (2013-05-24 19:11:30 UTC)
15:11<@DorpsGek>-Add: When opening the object-build window, try to restore the last selected object (sbr).
15:12<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r25283 trunk/src/object_gui.cpp (2013-05-24 19:12:45 UTC)
15:12<@DorpsGek>-Add: When opening the object-build window, make the selected object visible again in the selector (sbr).
15:14<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r25284 trunk/src/object_gui.cpp (2013-05-24 19:13:59 UTC)
15:14<@DorpsGek>-Feature: When opening the object-build window, restore the object build-window to the previous state (sbr).
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16:51<V453000>clear enough?
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16:53<frosch123>it's an approximation
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16:54<frosch123>in fact curve length is measured in number of wagons, not in tiles
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16:54<frosch123>so a train with short wagons can go faster through a curve than a train with long wagons
16:54<V453000>well yes
16:54<V453000>I just count it as a short wagon bonus :D
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16:55<frosch123>anyway, you do quite colourful slides :)
16:56<V453000>I just wanted to have this image highlighted as most people do not know this basic mechanic how curves work
16:56<V453000>if people ask you what curve lenght is it for 5 tile Lev4 ...
16:58<V453000>but yes I have illness for overcolouring
16:59<@planetmaker>tehehe :-)
17:00<@planetmaker>one would think what you show there does not need pointing out... but yes...
17:00<V453000>it does, it one hell of a lot does :)
17:09<@Rubidium>V453000: but you forgot tilting trains ;)
17:11<@planetmaker>and the curve speed bonus of railtypes
17:11<V453000>not really, tha is all within curve speed
17:11<V453000>shorter wagons, maglev, monorail, tilt, actual length of the curve
17:12<V453000>the image is just the demonstration of the basic logic, not of the actual calculation
17:13<V453000>that is the problem people generally do not understand
17:14<V453000>they just learn in some game "ok this game we use CL3 for train AB", but they are able to ask if another 3 tile train has curve length of 5
17:14<V453000>and a whole variety of other questions
17:14<frosch123> <- yeah, there is a definite lack of those pages
17:15<V453000>I didnt say lack
17:16<V453000>but none of them has as simple explanation to the mechanic as this image I just made
17:16<V453000>it might be written there, but that clearly isnt enough
17:17<@planetmaker>the point is, not too many people read complete wikis
17:17<@planetmaker>like you did at one point with the coop wiki. And so did I ;-)
17:18<V453000>well obviously, I also skim through text to the important things
17:18<V453000>image helps :)
17:19<V453000>especially if something is so simple as that
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18:17<Guile>Ya t il une bonne âme pour m'aider un poil s'il vous plaît? :)
18:17<Supercheese>@get -3
18:17<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: English only
18:18<Guile>Oops Oo' ...
18:18<Guile>Does anybody here to give me a little help?
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18:18<Supercheese>What do you require help with?
18:19<Guile>about how to manage with a product in a station which requires and provide the same product
18:19<Guile>is there anyway to make it take the product and deliver it in the same station?
18:21<Supercheese>A situation like a bank requiring valuables and producing valuables?
18:21<Supercheese>You cannot deliver the valuables from one bank to the same station you picked them up from
18:21<Guile>in my case is : a train station + airport between iron mine and steel factory
18:22<Guile>oh ok :)
18:22<Supercheese>You could theoretically build a second station right beside and deliver them there, but you would make no profit
18:22<Supercheese>Cargo transport earns more money the farther it goes from station-to-station
18:22<Guile>oh okay :)
18:23<Supercheese>I'm not sure I understand your iron mine and steel mill route, though...
18:23<Supercheese>You can use transfer orders to transfer cargo at a station
18:24<Supercheese>Perhaps this page will be helpful:
18:32<Guile>oh uh.... iron mine delivers iron, required by steel mill... (not sure of english terms)
18:33<Supercheese>That shouldn't result in one station both providing and accepting a cargo, though
18:33<Supercheese>unless the iron mine and steel mill were right next to each other
18:34<Guile>they are
18:34<Supercheese>You will require two stations, then
18:34<Guile>not so closed, though
18:34<Guile>I did it too
18:34<Guile>but I made a big big big airport
18:35<Guile>that increased the area that covers now both buildings :(
18:35<Guile>now I have useless iron in that station :(
18:37<Supercheese>Yes, that happens sometimes. You'll either have to make the station that has the excess iron the new pickup station and build another delivery station, or bulldoze the station with the excess iron and rebuild it so it doesn't get any iron
18:38<Supercheese>rebuild it after the station name disappears, that is
18:40<Guile>thank you! :)
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19:08<Eddi|zuHause>i never played that game
19:15<Supercheese>I prefer
19:15<Supercheese>I sing that song a lot, basically like that :O
19:21<Supercheese> this one too
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21:27<Eddi|zuHause>ok, i never played ANY of these games...
22:06<Supercheese>No Legend of Zelda? For shame
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---Logclosed Sat May 25 00:00:28 2013