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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-05-27

---Logopened Mon May 27 00:00:30 2013
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04:26<Supercheese>Good night
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05:35<GunChleoc>Is anybody with Wiki powers around?
05:36<GunChleoc>I have a new language for the main page
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06:49<GunChleoc>Already done
06:50<GunChleoc>I can add Gaelic anywhere except for the main page, because if the vandalism safeguard
06:50<GunChleoc>*because of
06:52<@planetmaker>yeah. added
06:53<GunChleoc>Thanks! :)
06:54<@planetmaker>you're welcome
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07:37*LordAro waves
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11:52<alluke>the actual fuck
11:52<alluke>one iore mine procudes 783 tons without cheat
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11:54<TinoDidriksen>Not so unusual. Seen several go over 1000.
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12:04<@planetmaker>alluke, you can raise that. to 256*8 or 256*9. Depending on month
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12:27<_aD>I've seen some with as much as 7 ore!
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12:45<_aD>Hi Terkhen
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25298 /trunk/src/lang (10 files) (2013-05-27 17:45:55 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>dutch - 4 changes by habell
13:46<@DorpsGek>english_AU - 3 changes by mrtux
13:46<@DorpsGek>english_US - 4 changes by Rubidium
13:46<@DorpsGek>finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
13:46<@DorpsGek>german - 3 changes by planetmaker
13:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<@DorpsGek>polish - 4 changes by nouwak
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 3 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:46<@DorpsGek>gaelic - 3 changes by GunChleoc
13:46<@DorpsGek>spanish - 4 changes by Terkhen
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14:30<samu>i found an utility called process explorer and I'm exploring openttd.exe for fun
14:31<samu>there is 9 threads open by openttd.exe as far as I can understand
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14:41*Zuu has sucessfully been able to return a harcoded value from ScriptObject::DoCommand in world gen by throwing the apporite thing. Now he only need to figure out how to get hold of the correct return value.
14:41<samu>peak cpu usage 14.43% :o
14:42<samu>hey Zuu, i was writing an excel table, you have many AIs
14:43<samu>clueless plus is main one
14:43<samu>or paxlink
14:43<Zuu>I'd say CluelessPlus
14:43<samu>and tutorials
14:44<Zuu>PaxLink was once a possible AI to overtake CluelessPlus, but it became to complex so I decided to get back to Clueless and improve it.
14:45<samu>CluelessPlus, IdleMore, PAXLink, StreetTraffic, TownCars, TutorialAI, TutorialShipAI
14:46<samu>i saw PAXlink survive 100 years only once
14:46<Zuu>and then add some libraries and GSes too. :-)
14:46<Zuu>IIRC, my banas user account is #1 or #2 in total download count if you make a sum over all content that is associated with that account.
14:47<samu>let me find cluelessplus statistics
14:47<Zuu>Thought, I have taken over ownership of some of the original AI libraries such that the pathfinders due to fixing a small bug while others have made the main work there.
14:48<samu>out of 10 games
14:48<samu>0 errors, 9 alive, 1 negative profit
14:49<Zuu>Assuming there was a though competition, that sounds good.
14:49<samu>info i got here
14:49<samu>+/- CluelessPlus (v34): bankrupt, road vehicles, aircraft
14:49<samu>so it bankrupted at some time then restarted and was fine
14:50<Zuu>I have not really been able to fully stabilize it after adding aircraft to it. In non-air mode it is better to not get into bad economic situations.
14:50<samu>positive income on the second try most likely
14:50<samu>tileset was toy land
14:50<samu>Default game settings 1.3.0, AI profile Medium, Speed Fast + Default AI settings + 512x512 Toy-Land Original, Terrain Flat, Sea Low, Rivers Few, Seed 1111111111
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14:52<samu>it's good at repairing routes
14:52<Zuu>samu: Thanks. If you have any report that you expect me to have a look at, its best placed in the forum as it could take some months until I get around to have a look on it unless it is urgent.
14:53<samu>terron is good at destroying routes on the other hand
14:53<samu>or is it dictator?
14:53<samu>one of these ruins its own routes
14:54<Zuu>CluelessPlus has a specialized pathfinder class (which is actually part of SuperLib and available to anyone) that runs over existing roads to detect broken connections. It runs more frequent on lines that make a loss.
14:55<Zuu>It also has code that trigger on road vehicle crashes and tries to replace rail crossings with a bridge.
14:55<samu>oh i haven't noticed that one
14:56<samu>i have noticed missing bridges from either terron or dictator
14:56<samu>it is a bridge over river
14:56<samu>should be*
14:56<samu>but it's missing
14:57<samu>some other AI also tries to use rivers as a path for ships
14:58<samu>or lakes connected to rivers
14:58<samu>hmm nah, that one errors too often
14:58<samu>it was one of the others who use ships
14:59<samu>don't remember, I have to try again
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14:59<samu>NoCAB, when it finds some ships lost
15:00<samu>it builds more routes
15:00<samu>more of the same
15:00<samu>erm,, how to explain hmm
15:00<samu>it starts off with a route
15:01<samu>suddenly that route gets broke with lost ships
15:01<samu>it either adds more ships to that route, or builds more of the same route
15:01<samu>so, it's quite easy to find 100+ lost ships for NoCAB
15:03<samu>Otvi is only successful with passenger ships
15:03<samu>the other cargo ships have always a dock that doesn't get the cargo, out of range
15:04<samu>not withing range to get the cargo
15:04<samu>I think it could have been Trans
15:05<samu>brb, let me set up a game with Trans
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15:24<samu>it was one of those rare errors
15:25<samu>don't think i can make it happen anytime soon
15:25<samu>it was using a dock on a coast towards a lake
15:25<samu>that lake was connected to a river
15:26<samu>dowwards to the water
15:26<samu>to the ocean
15:26<V453000>try having thousands of trains
15:26<V453000>cpu usage easily 100% of one core
15:27<samu>and I could tell it was going to be passengers ship
15:27<samu>but it errored out before that
15:27<samu>so, a ship AI that does passengers
15:30<samu>savegame is made with newer version :(
15:34<V453000>try nightly
15:35<samu>there is a problem with Trans and ships anyway
15:35<samu>but I can't make it do what I described
15:35<samu>Trans (v100307)
15:36<samu>- waterconnector.nut error: the index 'AllowTryStation' does not exist
15:37<samu>what does it mean?
15:38<samu>ah no, i'm not trying nightly, sorry
15:41<samu>what is an index?
15:41<+glx>index is the general name for functions, variables, ...
15:42<@Alberth>usually a number pointing to an entry in some sequence
15:42<+glx>squirrel stuff
15:46<samu>can't decipher
15:47<samu>[Water Connector] Destination not found
15:48<samu>[water Connector] Selected source: Morlaix
15:48<samu>[Morlaix] have 10000 [true] -> Good Job ^_^
15:49<samu>[Morlaix] 0 station tiles found
15:49<samu>[Morlaix] Allowed to try to build station
15:49<samu>and error
15:51<@Alberth>it just reports that it cannot find the thing with that name
15:51<@Alberth>what's there to decipher?
15:51<samu>what it was doing
15:51<samu>building a dock?
15:52<samu>there is no dock at Morlaix town
15:52<@Alberth>AllowTryStation <-- it was looking a thing with that name :p
15:52<samu>oh :(
15:52<@Alberth>judging by the name, it didn't reach the point of having built anything
15:54<samu>Trans isn't even on Morlaix local authority details
15:55<@Alberth>you probably need to build a station first :p
15:59<samu>lol, it refits passengers ships to passengers and says good job
15:59<samu>oh well :)
16:02<@Alberth>it's a happy bot :)
16:05<samu>:p there are other messages Allowed to try to build station before
16:05<samu>and it didn't error
16:06<@Alberth>it can be something as simple as a typo in the name, or a wrong case of one letter or so
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16:17<samu>I have another question - What is a Page Fault? There's 464.599 and always increasing page faults
16:18<TinoDidriksen>It's a cache miss.
16:18<samu>page fault delta 49-90
16:18<samu>always changing
16:18<TinoDidriksen>Nothing to care about.
16:19<samu>Private Bytes - System Commin 170.2 MB
16:22<samu>threads, count: 9
16:22<samu>do you know what these threads do?
16:23<samu>Stack / Module ?
16:26<samu>openttd.exe+0x32464, openttd.exe+0x324654, wdmaud.drv!widMessage+0x4940, openttd.exe+0x227518, openttd.exe+0x227094, ntdll.dll!RtlValidateHeap+0x170, WINMM.dll+0x1010, ntdll.dll!TplsTimerSet+0x7c0+MMDevAPI.DLL|Ordinal5+0x1274
16:27<samu>oops, that's a comma there
16:27<samu>openttd.exe+0x32464, openttd.exe+0x324654, wdmaud.drv!widMessage+0x4940, openttd.exe+0x227518, openttd.exe+0x227094, ntdll.dll!RtlValidateHeap+0x170, WINMM.dll+0x1010, ntdll.dll!TplsTimerSet+0x7c0, MMDevAPI.DLL!Ordinal5+0x1274
16:28<Zuu>samu: the english wording of page fault is farily harmless. The swedish translation is easy to mistake for a hardware error if you do not know what it is. :-)
16:29<samu>wish i could copy paste
16:30<samu>those are memory addresses?
16:30<samu>i have another program with a lot of page faults
16:30<samu>so it's always normal?
16:31<@Alberth>they are offsets in program data
16:31<TinoDidriksen>A page fault is simply a cache miss when accessing memory that's been swapped out.
16:31<+glx>samu: main thread and stuff created by windows like midi, sound, ...
16:32<Supercheese>Aww, I thought a page fault was talking about book tectonics ;)
16:32<samu>oh, the midi one insterests me
16:32<samu>must find the thing who blocks sound to the whole system
16:33<@Alberth>Supercheese: these are electronic pages :)
16:33<Supercheese>Alberth: iTectonics, then? :P
16:34<@Alberth>apple would claim it's theirs probably
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16:35<@Rubidium>^ page fault? ;)
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16:36<samu>bah, sorry I closed ie by mistake
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16:38<Zuu>samu: Your quit message did fit very well the discussion.
16:38<samu>what was my quit message?
16:38<Zuu>* samu has quit (Quit: Page closed)
16:38<samu>I can't see
16:46<samu>this .png image
16:46<samu>is using 2.904.264 K memory
16:48<samu>svchost.exe > dllhost.exe > something windows photo viewer.exe
16:48<samu>is it normal?
16:50<Zuu>3000 MB or 3000 Mb?
16:50<Zuu>Both is quite a lot
16:50<FLHerne>How many pixels?
16:50<samu>it is under the column Working Set
16:50<Zuu>But yes, loading eg. a giant screenshot from OpenTTD can use a lot of memory. :-)
16:52<samu>41.1 MB file
16:52<frosch123>2 GB uncompressed
16:52<@Alberth>@calc 32641 * 16471
16:52<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 537629911
16:53<frosch123>can you digital camera handle 500 megapixels?
16:53<samu>it's a screenshot from openttd
16:53<@Alberth>537,000,000 pixels x 4 bytes RGB = 2GB
16:54<samu>closed image viewer, it freed up 2.8 GB ram
16:55<samu>your png files are a trap
16:55<@Alberth>it's called giant for a reason :p
16:55<+glx>same happens with jpeg
16:55<frosch123>it's an educational trap
16:55<+glx>most tools work on uncompressed data
16:56<@Terkhen>good night
16:57<@Alberth>good night Terkhen
16:57<samu>i dont have many jpgs around
17:01<samu>largest working set now is THXAudio.exe
17:02<samu>then explorer.exe
17:02<@Alberth>the point of having memory is to use it :)
17:03<samu>openttd.exe is further down the list with 50.332K
17:03<samu>I wanted more than 8 GB RAM
17:04<samu>wanted 32 GB or so, to create a RAMDrive
17:04<samu>a big one
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17:06<samu>and would install something big on it
17:06<samu>Need for Speed World
17:09<samu>20.925 ficheiros, 257 pastas
17:09<samu>20.925 files, 257 folders for Need for Speed World
17:10<samu>too many small files
17:12<@Alberth>using it as disk cache is much more useful imho
17:13<juzza1>waiting for the stuff to fill in after a reboot might get a little annoying
17:14<@Alberth>and you don't need to copy data onto the RAM disk first :p
17:14<samu>yes, i agree, tested a 4 GB RAMDrive, took 1 more minute to boot and 1 more to shutdown
17:15<samu>sometimes it was annoying
17:16<samu>then some of the patches for the game said insufficient space... .(
17:16<samu>gave up on ramdrive
17:17<samu>tried to look about super fetch
17:17<samu>couldn't find anything
17:17<samu>all I find is it's automated
17:20<Zuu>Now with SSDss, I don't wory about disk speed.
17:21<@Alberth>just never shutdown :p
17:23<samu>I've been more interested in ssds before
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17:24<samu>nowadays I rather find it's worth waiting for better prices
17:24<samu>they're always getting way cheaper than last year
17:25<samu>so, I wait until it's no longer the case
17:25<@Alberth>they'll continue to decline :p
17:25<samu>it's too tempting to buy one
17:25<samu>only to find out they were overly expensive next year
17:26<samu>:( still waiting
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17:32<samu>my 3-way dilema
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17:32<samu>more ram vs. 2nd hdd vs. ssd
17:32<samu>decided to wait
17:34<juzza1>4th option: do nothing and save money
17:34<samu>yes, depends
17:35<samu>I need "something"
17:35<samu>most likely a 2nd drive
17:35<samu>the anti-virus is great at slowing my comp to a crawl
17:36<samu>but not really urgent
17:38<samu>wanted to do video recording
17:38<samu>but meh...
17:39<+glx>don't use norton
17:39<samu>can't do everything at the same time
17:39<samu>ah, I use mse
17:42<samu>mse is light, discrete, but what I find is... it's light, until it finds zip files or iso images
17:42<FLHerne>samu: With the amount of tweaking you seem to do, why haven't you switched to Linux yet? :P
17:43<samu>linux eh... I have bad experiences with it
17:43<samu>well, with ubuntu
17:43<samu>it boots on live cd, but once installed it doesn't boot
17:44<NGC3982>Where does it not boot (yes, that is a serious question)?
17:44<NGC3982>I had a fair amount of poop with GRUB while exploring Linux for the first times.
17:44<samu>it was some years ago, it was stuck on 'starting ubuntu"
17:44<samu>with a orange bar going one way to another
17:44<NGC3982>Well, never mind me then.
17:46<samu>tried red hat way before
17:46<samu>i just sucked at it
17:46<samu>didn't even know how to get to a floppy disk
17:47<NGC3982>I can relate.
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17:59<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25299 /trunk/src (goal_base.h script/api/game_changelog.hpp) (2013-05-27 21:59:11 UTC)
17:59<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Allow more concurrent goals in a game
18:03<samu>how do i brute force a farm to increase production?
18:03<samu>it produces 189 grain a month, but only 12 livestock a month, how do I balance it?
18:04<samu>needs more livestock
18:06<NGC3982>Since the base value is lower for livestock than grain, you will have to balance cargo handling to increase livestock before grain.
18:06<NGC3982>You should have as few goods waiting as possible, and leave lesser gaps between pickups.
18:07<V453000>not like you need to balance it at all
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18:08<samu>could smart advertising campaign affect production per month?
18:08<samu>smart... oops, small
18:08<Zuu>Get a statue if you don't have one yet
18:09<samu>it's a farm close to a town
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18:09<Zuu>Get a statue in that town.
18:09<Zuu>That boosts your station rating by 10% permanently.
18:09<samu>I have a statue yes
18:10<Supercheese>You could just use the cheat menu, adjust production :P
18:10<samu>if I keep buying these advertising campaigns, will it speed up?
18:10<samu>i can't cheat on multiplayer
18:11<Supercheese>Ah, alas
18:11<NGC3982>samu: A server?
18:11<NGC3982>What server?
18:11<NGC3982>Ill gladly join.
18:11<samu>ah no, i dont want to cheat
18:12<NGC3982>Me neither. I just want to join you. :>
18:12<samu>it's some btpro
18:12<samu>the 140 year btpro
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18:24<samu>it's not like I think
18:32<samu>hmm, noob question
18:32<samu>scrolling with max zoom out
18:32<samu>is single-threaded?
18:34<samu>well 4200 MHz, 12% CPU
18:34<samu>it is :9
18:34<samu>it's the typical behaviour for this cpu for single-thread applications
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18:41<V453000>almost everything is single threaded
18:41<V453000>regarding openttd
18:42<samu>another question, the land generator is single, or multi?
18:43<samu>bah why do I ask, I can test it
18:44<samu>4200 MHz, 13% CPU :o
18:44<samu>poor AMD is poor
18:46<samu>the typical 100% cpu use is 3300/3600 MHz
18:47<Zuu>samu: we can add threads that do useless stuff and put more load on your cpu, but that does't do any help :-p
18:48<@planetmaker>that's the multiplayer capability: you can start as many clients as you have cores (or maybe one less)
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18:48<samu>gonna try
18:48<samu>land generating 2048x2048 x8
18:50<Zuu>Starting a game with 64000 goals created in the world gen takes some time. :-)
18:50<Zuu>Thaksfully much faster than if they would have been created after world gen. :-)
18:51<samu>woah 3600/3900
18:51<samu>some gaps
18:53<samu>HWiNFO can't breath
18:53<samu>with all OpenTTDs generatin
18:53<samu>but it's 3600 at least
18:53<samu>and 100% cpu
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18:54*Zuu gives samu a book about C++ to do something more creative with his time than watching his CPU
18:56<Zuu>Don't be sad. Programming is both fun and useful.
18:58<Zuu>Having a good CPU is something you will have use for when compiling programs. :-)
18:59<V453000>I already learned never to compile NUTS on my notebook ever again
18:59<V453000>not a short process
19:00<+glx>compiling on a raspberry pi is not a good idea either
19:04<samu>can AIs think with multiple threads?
19:19-!-Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:22<samu>what plays midi for openttd?
19:24<samu>it's windows media player?
19:24<samu>or something windows picks up?
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19:34<samu>help, I'm almost there
19:34<samu>there's 3 more thread counts when playing a midi
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19:36<+glx>your problems happens with both win32 and dmusic ?
19:36<ImNotTouchingIt>I was just wondering. I work in a School and as a Business Management Excercise for the students I suggested to the teacher that we have a OpenTTD competition where the students could try and make as much money as possible (or not) building up a company.
19:36<ImNotTouchingIt>I was wondering how you would go about setting up a server for such things.
19:37<ImNotTouchingIt>I mean I have a physical server I can use but as for the OpenTTD Server Software I don't know much about that.
19:38<samu>i stopped playing midi, count down to 10
19:38<samu>shouldn't it go to thread count 9?
19:40<samu>this one remained: WINMM.dll!timeEndPeriod+0xe8
19:40<samu>no idea if it's normal
19:41<+glx>that's windows doing its magic
19:42<samu>bad magic?
19:42<samu>i don't know, there were 9
19:42<samu>started playing a midi, went up to 12
19:42<samu>stopped playing midi, down to 10
19:42<+glx>openttd didn't start these threads
19:42<+glx>it's all done by windows
19:43<samu>and the others are named...
19:45<samu>msvcrt.dll!ftime64_s+0x180 - this one is using 0.05% cpu
19:49<+glx>openttd has 4 threads on its own: main thread, sound thread,midi thread and paint window thread
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>ImNotTouchingIt: you can start a server through the multiplayer GUI. if it's on a LAN, you probably don't have to do anything special, if it should be routed through the internet, you need to open the ports in the firewall/router
19:49<+glx>all others are created by windows
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>ImNotTouchingIt: or you can start a "dedicated" server with running "openttd -D" (must be a capital "D", not a "d", then you have only a console, no GUI
19:51-!-samu [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>ImNotTouchingIt: and then it gets really complicated if you want to run more than one server :p
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19:55<samu>sometimes i wish I could understand all this
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19:56<+glx>windows stuff
19:57<+glx>in the kernel
19:57<samu>these are a list of stacks
19:57<samu>last one is
19:57<V453000>fuck linux
19:57<samu>ah english :(
19:59<samu>this one is 14 stacks in a list
19:59<samu>that other is 9, and the other is 11
20:00<+glx>it's the call stack for each thread
20:01<+glx>not really useful unless you search the cause for a crash
20:02<samu>im waiting for no sound in my system
20:03<FLHerne>V453000: Why?
20:03<+glx>you probably won't notice any changes there when the sound disappear
20:04<V453000>because yes :D
20:04<FLHerne>V453000: If you mess up Linux, my computers will cease to function :-(
20:04<V453000>I doubt I will touch linux in any way :)
20:05<FLHerne>V453000: You should, it beats Windows :D
20:05<samu>what should I look for about sound?
20:06<V453000>but anything that runs on electricity and gets into moderately close proximity to me, usually starts to malfunction severely
20:06<V453000>sooo you might want to just stay away and you are safe :P
20:06<V453000>it doesnt beat windows if you need adobe products and stuff :)
20:07<samu>meh windows services, this list is too big...
20:07<+glx>if it's related to the driver you won't find the cause in openttd threads
20:09<samu>i'm trying to figure it out what is audio related on this whole mess
20:09<samu>svchost.exe / AudioEndPointBuilder ?
20:10<+glx>yes if this one is stopped there's no audio
20:11<+glx>you should check its state when sound is gone
20:11<FLHerne>V453000: No-one needs Adobe products and stuff :P
20:11<V453000>that doesnt make sense :)
20:12<FLHerne>Krita/Lightspark/KDevelop/[alternative to whatever else Adobe produce]...
20:13<samu>restricted, doesn't let me spy svchost
20:15<V453000>which is clearly the reason why everyone uses adobe :P
20:15<+glx>samu: File|Show detail for all processes
20:15<samu>Unable to access thread
20:16<samu>hmm :8
20:16<+glx>it will switch to admin mode
20:16<samu>it is doing it
20:16<samu>it shows details for all processes already
20:17<samu>some can't be spyed
20:18<samu>audiodg.exe for example
20:19<samu>found another
20:20<samu>inside another svchost
20:21<samu>this one is Sound Blaster - VolPanlu.exe
20:21<samu>another - THXAudio.exe
20:22<samu>this one is for Realtek - RtkNGUI64.exe
20:23<+glx>some processes are protected yes
20:24<samu>this one is strange
20:25<samu>rundll32.exe > THXCfg64.dll
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20:26<samu>rundll32.exe > AmbRunE.dll
20:27<samu>that's all
20:32<+glx>anyway it's too late for me
20:32<+glx>good night
20:32-!-glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye !]
20:32<samu>ok, cyas good night
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21:17-!-mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
21:17-!-mode/#openttd [+o SmatZ] by ChanServ
21:17-!-mode/#openttd [+v orudge] by ChanServ
21:17-!-mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ
21:17-!-mode/#openttd [+v planetmaker] by ChanServ
21:22-!-mode/#openttd [+v SmatZ] by ChanServ
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22:14<Mazur>Bummer, to lose an entire terminal, and that while your using it.
22:15<Mazur>Happened to me once, some electronic component died with a bang and a flash, and green smoke.
22:16*Mazur dove under the desk to unplug the damn thing.
22:16<Mazur>Phoned the Vatican to ask what green smoke meant, but they had no idea, they only use black/white.
23:25<Eddi|zuHause>green is probably copper
23:26<Eddi|zuHause>every metal has a unique colour when burning, through a prism you can identify al elements in a fire
23:27<Eddi|zuHause>astronomers use that to identify the age of a star
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---Logclosed Tue May 28 00:00:32 2013