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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-06-02

---Logopened Sun Jun 02 00:00:47 2013
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03:00<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:40<@planetmaker>moin
03:46<V453000>elo
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04:37<@Alberth>mornink
04:38<@planetmaker>more ink, Alberth
04:42<@Alberth>You got better unspamming powers, I see. Very good :)
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04:45<@planetmaker>yeah, thought I could hit ban on a few spammers when I stumble upon them could be helpful
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05:11<frosch123>hmm... now that i notice... why didn't i apply for global moderator? i could have gotton a green nickname!
05:12<@planetmaker>:-)
05:13-!-Elukka [~Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
05:13<@planetmaker>apply as graphics forum moderator and ask for a change into light leaf green
05:13<frosch123>:p
05:14<frosch123>i should join transport empire
05:14<@planetmaker>or just ask for a special colour. To warn of the jumpy nickname associations
05:14<frosch123>sounds dangerous, what if V gets a rainbow nick?
05:15<frosch123>who is geo ghost?
05:15<@planetmaker>a very long-time-around person
05:16<frosch123>yeah, but unless they are locomotion guys, i should at least know them by name :s
05:16<@planetmaker>runs the monthly photo competition
05:17<@planetmaker>not sure he plays anything still... don't recall his activity on anything else but the competition
05:18<frosch123>looks like one post this year in ottd general
05:18<frosch123>no wonder i do not know him :)
05:51<oskari89>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=66508&p=1080032#p1080032
05:52<oskari89>planetmaker: How hard it would be to code that feature?
05:53<@planetmaker>not very
05:53<@planetmaker>but you have to be careful. And introduce several if then else cases depending on settings
05:53<@planetmaker>though maybe one can do without
05:54<@planetmaker>depends on how you extend the window and add or change the string(s)
05:57<@planetmaker>and depends on whether you want to make it configurable in any way or if you're content with increasing the text area for each vehicle by two or three lines, thus adding 50...100% in size
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05:59<@planetmaker>oskari89, the main problem IMHO is that it starts to be or is over the edge of "too much information" in that window and whether and if so, how to deal with it
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>actually, i disagree. there are some important infos missing currently...
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>and "NewGRF can add it" is not the solution to everything
06:06<@planetmaker>I know. Note that I did not say that
06:21<oskari89>Eddi|zuhause: Exactly
06:22<oskari89>Those introduction dates and lifetimes are important info IMHO
06:23<oskari89>Because they are already on locomotive and MU's, they should be on wagons and coaches too :P
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>i disagree to the lifetime though, wagons have no lifetime, only a model life (and that is not displayed for engines either)
06:24<oskari89>Ok
06:24<oskari89>Introduction date could be nice though :P
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>intro date would be "nice to have", but loading speed is imho essential
06:24<@planetmaker>Introduction dates... that's pointless really. They're there in the list, if available. Otherwise not
06:25<@planetmaker>it makes some sense jointly with model life
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but that applies to engines as well
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>it's inconsistent to do it for one, and leave it out for the other
06:25<@planetmaker>But then, do you know the model life of the vehicle you buy now?
06:26<oskari89>Engines do contain introduction dates already without model life :P
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06:26<Eddi|zuHause>another thing that's missing is the compatible/powered railtypes, but i'm not sure how to display that
06:26<@planetmaker>that'll be nearly a sack of worms
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06:26<@planetmaker>loading speed imho is the most important missing one
06:27<@planetmaker>which in my eyes should get some more love than the plain nfo speed
06:27<@planetmaker>thus, making it more than very easy task, oskari89
06:27<Ristovski>Hello
06:27<@planetmaker>hi Ristovski
06:27<frosch123>[12:25] <planetmaker> it makes some sense jointly with model life <- model life would be most silly
06:27<oskari89>planetmaker: Ok
06:27<@Alberth>planetmaker: introduction dates are mostly for checking which one is the newest
06:27<frosch123>you do not know how long a engine will be available :p
06:27<Ristovski>Finally it's only 20C here
06:27<@planetmaker>frosch123, yes. See above ;-)
06:28<frosch123>:p
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06:28<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and while we're discussing stuff, the engine preview/news windows should display the newgrf text as well (possibly with a flag to the callback where it's written)
06:28<oskari89>Yes, that is correct
06:28<oskari89>I've missed out that too
06:29*Alberth just always clicks "no"
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>that is not the point :p
06:29<@planetmaker>sometimes I accept. But then I know that I can really use it
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06:30<@planetmaker>for trainsets I do not know, I'm missing a comparison function to decide whether I want to accept the preview
06:30<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: it also does not help, those pesky manufacturers continue asking :p
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>different feature :p
06:31<@planetmaker>:-)
06:31<oskari89>But to the original thing: I think locomotive/MU and wagon/coach info should be identical
06:31<oskari89>(as shown)
06:32<oskari89>Mainly :P
06:32<oskari89>Introduction dates should really be on both
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06:33<Eddi|zuHause>now you're just discussing in circles
06:33<@Alberth>oskari89: aren't you assuming here "newer == better"?
06:33<@Alberth>which need not be the case
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06:35<@planetmaker>really. introduction date... is absolutely unneeded for deciding on a vehicle to buy
06:35<oskari89>For information purposes it should be fine
06:35<@planetmaker>vehicle life is more important. That is the estimated time till replacement
06:36<@planetmaker>you say it's the most important missing thing. I disagree quite a bit there
06:36<@planetmaker>it doesn't add really useful info
06:36<oskari89>It adds info for player to seek wagons and coaches from different generations
06:37<@planetmaker>no
06:37<Ristovski>planetmaker: we still need a function to mute OpenTTD :D
06:37<oskari89>And make proper consist based on that intro date
06:37<oskari89>:P
06:37*Alberth gives Ristovski a cable cutter
06:37<Ristovski>I mean, you can disable the audio set, sure, but you need to exit the game for that
06:37<Ristovski>Alberth: Great, now I need to solder it back again :C
06:37<@Alberth>edit the openttd.config manually?
06:37<@planetmaker>Ristovski, yes, that's true. Please, I'll gladly accept patches. Game options window should allow that.
06:38<Ristovski>planetmaker: hmm... maybe a button and a shortcut?
06:38<Ristovski>Ill poke around in the source later
06:38<@Alberth>Ristovski: that's step 2 or 3 or so
06:38<@planetmaker>Ristovski, music can be changed ingame from... juke box. Just not music set
06:38<@planetmaker>but there it should be feasible to change, too
06:39<@planetmaker>maybe not sound set, though
06:39<@planetmaker>as that messes with newgrfs potentially
06:39<@planetmaker>just music
06:39<@planetmaker>though volume, of course for both
06:40<Ristovski>also, you could be able to mute all of the sounds with a button/shortcut
06:40<Ristovski>planetmaker: maybe even a feature that mutes the sounds when OpenTTD is minimized, that would be cool
06:40<oskari89>planetmaker: Because introduction date is shown already on locomotives and multiple units (good feature), it should be available too on coaches and wagons, there's no reason to left it out :P
06:40<@planetmaker>Ristovski, that could imho be a patch coming after this rework
06:40<@planetmaker>shortcuts can be assigned to single things
06:41<Ristovski>hmm, ok
06:41-!-LordAro [~LordAro@host217-43-26-155.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
06:41<frosch123>[12:30] <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it also does not help, those pesky manufacturers continue asking :p <- the funny thing about the previews is actually, that you are asked less if you say "yes" and then do not build it :p
06:41<@planetmaker>Ristovski, only because I think the current inconsistency there is worse than a missing global shortcut for "mute all"
06:41<LordAro>'lo all
06:41<frosch123>so, if they annoy you, you should always say "yes" :)
06:41<@planetmaker>could probably be done rather independently
06:41<Ristovski>planetmaker: Yeah, true :P
06:41<@planetmaker>hi lobster
06:41<@Alberth>hi LordAro
06:42<@planetmaker>he... yea... LordAro :-)
06:42<LordAro>hai Alberth and planetmaker :)
06:42<@planetmaker>damn tab completion ;-)
06:42<LordAro>autocomplete screw you over again? :P
06:42<Ristovski>planetmaker: Also, sorry for not doing any translation work, was kinda busy
06:42<@planetmaker>RL is RL. No worries
06:43<@planetmaker>you should get going at ogfx-landscape, though ;-)
06:43<LordAro>scary place, outside
06:43<@Alberth>frosch123: yeah, but it's still a nuisance :)
06:43<@planetmaker>windows3D, LordAro ;-)
06:43<@planetmaker>with touch-feedback
06:43<Ristovski>planetmaker: hmm, true, I could translate some of those
06:45<@planetmaker>and I need to find motivation to tackle the last missing bit... rail tunnels
06:45<Ristovski>DO EET
06:46<@planetmaker>it's boring graphics work. Not interesting one. Copy & paste. Removing grids. No new work.
06:47<@planetmaker>separating tracks + tunnels :S
06:47<@planetmaker>and tunnels + terrain
06:47<Ristovski>I should learn to do that, but too lazy :P
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07:53<zooks>in NML, how do you reference to a sprite in another grf or in a baseset? Can't find such functions in the documentation..
07:55<@planetmaker>another newgrf: you cannot
07:55<@planetmaker>baseset sprites: by their number
07:55<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Spritelayout
07:58<zooks>ah thx!
07:58<@planetmaker>see also base_sprite_2cc and base_sprite_shores in http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:General
07:59-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-188-102-147-004.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
07:59<@planetmaker>oh. and base_sprite_foundations
08:00<LordAro>it would be cool if you could do something like: "if newgrf123 is loaded, use newgrf123_sprite5, else ..."
08:02<@planetmaker>LordAro, that's... very impractical
08:02<@planetmaker>it has many unknowns
08:02<@planetmaker>newgrf order, and parameters of *all* newgrfs
08:02<@planetmaker>and openttd version
08:02<LordAro>true :L
08:02<@planetmaker>and baseset version
08:02<frosch123>don't we have some andy quote in stock about newgrfs checking about other newgrfs? :p
08:02<@planetmaker>so... not going to happen
08:03<LordAro>aaw :L
08:04<@planetmaker>LordAro, at least I don't see how to practically do that. If there's a way to do that without base set determining the newgrf sprite numbers... then maybe
08:06<LordAro>not saying it wouldn't be totally impractical :)
08:06<LordAro>just that grfs can already see what other newgrfs are loaded, right?
08:07<LordAro>therefore (in my head at least) it wouldn't be too far of a stretch for my imagination to allow access to other parts of the newgrf, such as parameters or sprites
08:08<@Alberth>we are trying to eradicate such evilnesses!
08:09<@planetmaker>LordAro, NewGRFs can see which and where others are loaded, including their parameters
08:09<@planetmaker>LordAro, where do you actually need that?
08:10<LordAro>i have no idea, i was merely commenting on the previous conversation with zook s
08:10<@planetmaker>If you want to change stuff of an existing NewGRF: use a NewGRF override
08:10<LordAro>:3
08:10<@planetmaker>If you add new stuff: check for the grf. And include the sprite(s)
08:10<@Rubidium>LordAro: good luck with your massive lookup table for finding the right sprite in all 'supported' versions of the NewGRF
08:10<@planetmaker>you do NOT need landscape sprites. They're baseset
08:11<@planetmaker>and indeed, I would not be able to give or want to guarantee any sprite number in any grf except the 5 base grfs
08:11<@planetmaker>not even the 6th base grf, the extra one I can guarantee it
08:11<LordAro>i never said it was practical, it was just an idea!
08:11*LordAro hides
08:12<@Rubidium>that is... if you compile it again with NML, the sprites might be somewhere else... so version includes the carthesian product of both the NML source version AND the NML compiler version
08:12<@planetmaker>add an additional action14 translation *poof*
08:14<@Rubidium>so merely ~4 million versions for OpenGFX+ Landscape -> 32 MB lookup table
08:14<@planetmaker>:D
08:15*LordAro buries his head deeper into the sand
08:15<@planetmaker>I doubt that that many NML versions compile it, Rubidium ;-)
08:18<@Alberth>Rb likes generic solutions to problems ;)
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08:20<@planetmaker>one ban a day, keeps the spammer away :-)
08:22<LordAro>you banning people at random again? :P
08:22<@planetmaker>of course
08:23<@planetmaker>(not that I could before :-P )
08:25<LordAro>is this your new global admin forum status? or did you have that already?
08:25<@planetmaker>I didn't have that
08:26<Ristovski>uhh.... wat, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItfPLt6CIjY
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08:27<@planetmaker>:D
08:27-!-KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
08:28<@planetmaker>iff they only had written correctly the programme name in the youtube title
08:28<@planetmaker>probably too stoned
08:28<Ristovski>:D
08:30<LordAro>Ristovski: did i see that on reddit?
08:30<Ristovski>LordAro: Yup
08:30<Ristovski>someone posted that in /r/openttd
08:31<Ristovski>repost from /r/montageparodies
08:31<LordAro>i never bothered clicking on the link, i just saw the title :L
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08:36<LordAro>yeah, ok, that's... a bit odd
08:46<zooks>can I replace one sprite in the base graphics with another one or can you only replace by realsprites?
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08:46<zooks>something like this: replace(1004) {sprite: 4061}
08:50<@planetmaker>probably should work
08:50<zooks>nmlc: "input", line 10: Syntax error, unexpected token "4061"
08:51<@planetmaker>right. does not work ;-)
08:52<zooks>Hmm too bad
08:53<@planetmaker>maybe, you tell us about what you try to achieve
08:53<@planetmaker>more broadly than "replace X with Y"
08:53<zooks>Something trivial, replace map edge with water
08:54<zooks>just for fun
08:54<@planetmaker>he, yeah. Not so trivial then indeed
08:54<@planetmaker>also... OpenGFX knows two kinds of water ;-)
08:54<LordAro>i'm fairly sure i've seen a(n old) grf which did that
08:54<@planetmaker>^
08:54<LordAro>i think it was from the pre-land-borders era
08:55<@planetmaker>I think so, too
08:55<LordAro>so it worked better :L
08:55<zooks>yeah, thats what I tried to recreate
08:55<V453000>that newGRF was fun actually :)
08:56<@planetmaker>it's really hard to make that NewGRF when you want to ensure that the water's without border
08:56<@planetmaker>But actually that might indeed be good. Take any water sprite (e.g. OpenGFX' river water) and replace that black tile by it
08:56<@planetmaker>then it's water, slightly different water and it should be fine
08:57<@planetmaker>as you then even know where the maps end
08:57<@planetmaker>except in the case where s/o creates a massive lake at height != 0
08:58<V453000>how could you make a lake at height different than 0
08:58<@planetmaker>scenario editor?
08:59<@planetmaker>or canals
08:59<@Alberth>terraforming
09:00<V453000>you mean rivers?
09:01<@planetmaker>lakes technically consist of river or canal tiles, yes.
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09:39<LordAro>that's annoying, ksp is crashing on me in the map view screen
09:39<LordAro>it's like the computer is trying to make me revise or something :L
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09:44<NGC3982>Morning.
09:46<LordAro>hi american
09:46<LordAro>:p
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10:12<samu>hi, what is network.sync_freq?
10:13<samu>when someone joins my game, they complain they get dropped because they didn't have enough time to download map
10:14<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_multiplayer#People_get_disconnected_while_joining.2C_how_to_fix_that.3F
10:14<samu>65535?
10:14<samu>i thought it was 32000
10:14<@Alberth>no idea at all
10:15<NGC3982>LordAro: Wat.
10:15<LordAro>?
10:16-!-Fuco [dota.keys@server.dasnet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:17<samu>max init time, max join time, max download time, max password time, max lag time - they're all 32000
10:18<samu>frame_freq, I changed to 5
10:18<samu>sync_freq - don't know what it does
10:19<samu>pause on join is on
10:20-!-KenjiE20 [kenjie20@46.246.119.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:21<samu>wiki search results nothing about network.sync_freq
10:22-!-zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has joined #openttd
10:26<samu>console says min 0, max 32000
10:27<samu>wiki says 65535
10:27<samu>which one is correct?
10:27<LordAro>console, probably
10:29<samu>oki, thx
10:29<samu>i bet it was frame_freq
10:29<samu>im setting this to 100
10:31-!-zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:32<+michi_cc>samu: I bet you more it's not.
10:33<samu>:(
10:33<+michi_cc>And I assume that waiting 3.3 seconds before an action is executed isn't what you want either.
10:34<samu>ah... my lag is minimum 200
10:34<samu>ms
10:35<samu>what number do I put in frame_freq
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10:36<samu>nevermind, today it's more
10:37<samu>272 ms min
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10:43<samu>how did you calculate that?
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10:47<zooks>WIP: http://i.imgur.com/cQR4UM7.png
10:49<@planetmaker>what happened to the landscape, zooks ?
10:50<samu>oh, fat roads
10:51<samu>and something between
10:51<samu>rail?
10:52<@planetmaker>guardrail
10:52<samu>looks like some avenue in Lisbon
10:53<samu>ah no... then not
10:53<samu>there's train lines between the roads
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11:05<samu>is that only one way?
11:06<samu>road 1 ->
11:06<samu>road 2 <-
11:06<samu>rails ->
11:07<samu>rails <-
11:07<samu>road 3 <-
11:07<samu>road 4 ->
11:07<samu>sorry, looks like im spamming
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11:17<samu>how do I negate the advantage of multiple engines going on hills when I set up a game? very difficult to circumvent this advantage. :/
11:18<@Rubidium>use original acceleration?
11:18<samu>i am using realistic this time
11:18<samu>steepness 10% works for 1 engine
11:19<@Rubidium>it was a rhetorical question
11:19<samu>when they make 2, steepness looks like nothing
11:19<@Rubidium>or crank up cargo weight multiplication (but that doesn't work for pax)
11:20<samu>yeah sometimes I just feel like putting 255x weight just for the sake of it
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11:29<MNIM>Samu: How short are your trains?
11:29<samu>5 tiles
11:29<MNIM>Well duh, of course.
11:30*MNIM works with 14-tilers.
11:30<MNIM>Good luck trying to get those up 10% slopes.
11:31<samu>im ninja'ing someone company and remove their 2nd engines
11:32<samu>2engines negating turns
11:32<samu>88 km/h the whole turn
11:32<samu>:(
11:33<samu>steepness doesn't work with original, no matter what % it looks the same
11:34<MNIM>bleh, original
11:35<samu>original is still harder even for 2 engines
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11:39<samu>im gonna check these trains incomes next year, using original accel
11:39<samu>brb
11:42<samu>hmm, i selected SimpleAI as the only AI, and I'm getting Chopper?
11:43<samu>do human players took SimpleAI slot?
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11:48<SineTheCreator>samu: i like realistic accel
11:48<SineTheCreator>even if it's easier, etc.
11:48<samu>i like it too for steepness
11:48<SineTheCreator>either way it's more fun for me
11:49<samu>but on flat terrain
11:49<samu>I hate it
11:55<samu>the graphs are very telling
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11:56<samu>blue is using single engines
11:56<samu>pink is using 2 engines
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11:59<samu>pink performance increased when switched to original accel, blue went down really deep
12:00<samu>think i need another year
12:03<samu>blue, down from £170.000 train income to £104.000
12:07<SineTheCreator>samu: why do you need two engines with five cars?
12:07<samu>not me, someone on my game
12:07<SineTheCreator>oh. using default train set?
12:08<samu>realistic accel
12:08<samu>vs original
12:08<@planetmaker>hm, I haven't seen anyone do any AI work lately...
12:08<SineTheCreator>yeah, but default trains or newgrf set?
12:08<samu>default of course
12:08<SineTheCreator>:/
12:08<SineTheCreator>samu: try a set like american renewal to see a huge difference. some sets handle accel differently
12:09<SineTheCreator>the default set actually handles it rather poorly compared to some realistic sets in my experience
12:09<samu>newgrfs :8
12:09<SineTheCreator>it's just one set
12:09<SineTheCreator>er, one newgrf
12:09<SineTheCreator>it's not like you need 12,000 :D
12:10<SineTheCreator>there are renewal sets for UK and euro trains as well, and i'm sure other regions
12:10<SineTheCreator>i'm american so i play with the american set and american roads/signals
12:10<samu>i try in single player
12:10<LordAro>planetmaker: :(
12:11<SineTheCreator>yeah give it a shot before judging :D it makes the game more difficult but also more interesting
12:11<samu>i doubt anyone will join
12:11<samu>but will try
12:11<SineTheCreator>trains become less about 'what year they came out' and more about what their specific nich is
12:11<SineTheCreator>niche*
12:11<@planetmaker>can I actively *exclude* some AIs from being chosen as random opponent?
12:11<@planetmaker>(other than deleting them)
12:12<SineTheCreator>for example the american renewal set has trains starting from the mid-1800's, and none of them are decidedly 'better' than another when it comes to cost vs. speed and power
12:12<SineTheCreator>but each engine is designed for a specific task
12:12<SineTheCreator>managing this you can get some really unique and fun networks going :D
12:12<LordAro>planetmaker: other than changing their info.nut, no
12:13<SineTheCreator>for example if you want to pull 4 or 6 cars you can use a less powerful engine that is cheaper. but for a 15 car train you'll need a more expensive and powerful engine, or multiple engines. but all engines may go the same speed, etc.
12:13<samu>yummi, borkai v12, that is a new version
12:13<@planetmaker>sounds like a useful configuration. Hint @ LordAro :-P
12:13<SineTheCreator>samu: what is borkai?
12:13<samu>american renewal
12:13<samu>downloading that
12:13<LordAro>i'll add it to my list of potential features i could make :P
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12:14<@planetmaker>I imagine a list of "available AIs" with a checkbox "use as random AI" somewhere
12:14<samu>it's an AI that builds bus stations on every road tile
12:15<SineTheCreator>samu: if american trains arent your taste give the UK renewal a try as well :D
12:15<SineTheCreator>samu: these trains are A LOT MORE EXPENSIVE than the default set, but this is by design. turn inflation off to make it manageable.
12:15<LordAro>planetmaker: i'd have thought so, but would that list have to be saved with the game? or would it be a global setting?
12:15<SineTheCreator>profits are also potentially higher so it balances out
12:16<SineTheCreator>samu | it's an AI that builds bus stations on every road tile <-- ugh :/
12:16<samu>turn off buses and it's a decent one
12:16<SineTheCreator>planetmaker: that's a good idea
12:17<SineTheCreator>i'm surprised OTTD doesn't have that yet
12:17<LordAro>planetmaker: add it to the wiki todo list, so it doesn't get forgotten :)
12:18<SineTheCreator>do you guys play with AIs alot? i never have
12:18<samu>yes
12:19<samu>it appears the reserved AI slot is not reserved at all
12:19<LordAro>not hugely - they always mess up the road networks...
12:19<samu>a human player took over SimpleAI slot
12:19<LordAro>including my own AI :L
12:19<SineTheCreator>LordAro: i've heard that, yeah
12:20<SineTheCreator>i mostly play by myself these days. i would play multiplayer but i prefer relaxing co-op games and none of the active servers seem to have that going on
12:20<@planetmaker>LordAro, I believe it should be a user setting
12:20<LordAro>yeah, if you want co-op you should try openttdcoop
12:21<LordAro>wait, you said 'relaxing'
12:21<LordAro>:P
12:21<SineTheCreator>LordAro: no, openTTDcoop is a bit TOO into it
12:21<@planetmaker>hey, we relax there, lobster ;-)
12:21<@planetmaker>gaaaaah!
12:21<SineTheCreator>they have strict rules on track designs, station designs, etc
12:21<LordAro>lol
12:21<SineTheCreator>i like to do things my own way
12:21<@planetmaker>it used to work for you to type 'lor<tab>'
12:21<SineTheCreator>i don't care if a roro station is less efficient so long as it's fun to watch/build
12:22<LordAro>planetmaker: :p
12:22<SineTheCreator>LordAro | wait, you said 'relaxing' <-- yeah, exactly :D
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12:22<notlobster>better :P
12:22<notlobster>?
12:22<@planetmaker>:D
12:23<SineTheCreator>lol
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12:24<SineTheCreator>are there any co-op AIs yet?
12:25<@planetmaker>no
12:25<SineTheCreator>LordAro: oh and another thing - i like to spend more than a few hours on a multiplayer game
12:25<@planetmaker>nor is playing in an AI company exactly supported
12:25<SineTheCreator>when i started playing openttd i played with some friends and we'd work on a map for weeks before starting over
12:25<SineTheCreator>planetmaker: that's a shame :(
12:25<@planetmaker>well. you can do that. But... AI has no way to know what you did
12:26<SineTheCreator>right
12:26<@planetmaker>thus would constantly need to re-assess his own ressources etc
12:26<SineTheCreator>which uses lots of CPU and wastes time
12:26<@planetmaker>thus making it much more challanging for itself where it can do all the accounting
12:26<@planetmaker>kinda, yes
12:26<samu>american set, do i use realistic acceleration or original?
12:26<@planetmaker>he doesn't know its stations, its tracks, its money...
12:26<SineTheCreator>samu: you can use either, but realistic is more interesting to play
12:26<@planetmaker>its vehicle orders
12:27<samu>oki, realistic
12:27<SineTheCreator>for these trains tractive effort and amount of power/weight actually mean something practical :D
12:27<@planetmaker>SineTheCreator, you might find the stable / Welcome server of #openttdcoop enjoyable, though
12:27<@planetmaker>people there, you can play alone, you need not...
12:27<SineTheCreator>hrm, okay :D thanks. i'll give it a shot
12:28<@planetmaker>not competitive, just co-existing companies :-)
12:28<SineTheCreator>yeah
12:28<SineTheCreator>that's fine with me too
12:28<samu>i put denver & rio grande, it says it likes NARS
12:28<samu>k let's see
12:28<SineTheCreator>i just hate the whole "you've got one hour, get to $25mil" crap :/
12:29<LordAro>samu: denver & rio grande has never been very successful - it was more of a pathfinder demonstration than anything else
12:29<@planetmaker>^^
12:30<LordAro>trAIns on the other hand...
12:30<samu>wow this list is big, not familiar with any of them
12:30<samu>engines
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12:31<LordAro>it was written for a dissertation, and is extremely god at what it does, if it is a little slow
12:31<LordAro>*good :L
12:32<SineTheCreator>samu: yeah, the american renewal includes a ton of engines from all eras
12:32<SineTheCreator>the list is massive
12:32<SineTheCreator>it also includes realistic cars
12:33<SineTheCreator>note that you may need to refit a car to handle a certain kind of cargo. pay special attention to the car descriptions
12:33<SineTheCreator>some trains can also be regeared, you do this at the depot or automatically via orders
12:34<SineTheCreator>LordAro: 'god' may be the correct term depending on your meaning :D
12:34<LordAro>that's true :)
12:34<SineTheCreator>if it's VERY good at what it does, i think god is sufficient
12:35<LordAro>it's the only AI that build 'true' double rails
12:35<SineTheCreator>wow
12:35<SineTheCreator>i figured AIs had come a long way by now
12:35<SineTheCreator>i just never use any
12:37<@planetmaker>LordAro, there, new 'easy' task in the todo list
12:37<samu>i bought a lima class
12:37<samu>it doesn't like passenger car
12:37<samu>how do I fix it
12:37<@planetmaker>get newgrf code. change newgrf code. compile newgrf. reload game
12:38<samu>i hear a noise
12:38<samu>ah, it's a sound effect
12:38<samu>electric iterurban works
12:38<samu>nice
12:39<samu>they make a noise while moving
12:39<samu>interesting
12:39<SineTheCreator>samu: use a different engine perhaps?
12:39<SineTheCreator>samu: pay attention to the engine descriptions
12:40<SineTheCreator>it tells you which cargos engines are designed for
12:40<SineTheCreator>a great many are designed for passengers and have steam heating and such
12:40<samu>suitable for steep hills
12:40<SineTheCreator>in that case pick one with a lot of power and tractive effort
12:41<samu>engine description says suitable for: steep hills
12:41<SineTheCreator>pax is a good place to start when using these trains
12:41<SineTheCreator>there ya go :D
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12:41<samu>but i couldn't attach a passenger car
12:42<SineTheCreator>hm. sometimes trains are only suitable for freight but they don't specify
12:42<SineTheCreator>sometimes they only accept a certain type of passenger car
12:42<samu>ah, i see
12:42<SineTheCreator>make sure you try to 'sort by cargo type -> passenger
12:42<SineTheCreator>'
12:42<samu>i will buy random engines and see if one works
12:43<SineTheCreator>brb
12:43<samu>2-8-0 consolidation works
12:44<samu>great it works
12:44<samu>it instantly accelerated to 88 km/h though
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12:45<SineTheCreator>do you have fast-forward on?
12:45<samu>no
12:46<SineTheCreator>how many cars?
12:46<SineTheCreator>oh, km/h
12:46<SineTheCreator>i thought you said mph :D
12:46<samu>4, train size is 3.7
12:46<samu>or 2.7
12:46<SineTheCreator>that's not much
12:46<SineTheCreator>a consolidation can probably handle 10 cars quite easily
12:47<samu>really? oh wow
12:47<SineTheCreator>oh yes, these engines are designed for long trains
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12:47<SineTheCreator>you can run short trains but economically they are designed for long trains
12:47<samu>let me increase station
12:48<SineTheCreator>a station length of 6 tiles is enough for 8 cars + a caboose on most freight trains
12:48<SineTheCreator>oh and freight trains require a caboose if they are longer than a few cars
12:48<SineTheCreator>realism :D
12:48<samu>imba-lism
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12:49<SineTheCreator>the thing to remember here is that some trains may have a low top speed but tons of torque, so they get there quite fast even with heavy loads
12:49<samu>6.7 train size, need to change settings
12:50<SineTheCreator>oh and obviously the caboose does not need to be 'in' a station to unload properly
12:50<SineTheCreator>i mean the speed of unloading
12:51<samu>denver is beating me
12:51<SineTheCreator>so you can build caboose'd freight haulers that are slightly longer than the station
12:51<samu>the AI
12:52<samu>max train size, how many tiles?
12:52<samu>default says 7 tiles
12:52<samu>... ok, 64 tiles
12:52<LordAro>denver is beating you??
12:53<samu>ye
12:53<LordAro>are you playing on a completely flat map?
12:53<LordAro>:P
12:53<samu>hmm it looks like 30% water, and rest is flat
12:54<samu>terragenesis ...
12:54<samu>increasing this train size
12:55<Mazur>Folks, take it to a dedicate game channel, this channel is not intended for any particular game chat, but for maintenance and development of the client.
12:55<Mazur>Thank you.
12:55<LordAro>umm, what?
12:56<LordAro>Mazur: i think you want #openttd.dev
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12:58<samu>aha, I see
12:58<samu>it doesn't go to top speed now
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13:01<@planetmaker>LordAro, being beaten by an AI. Depends on the time scale. For t < 10 years: might even be likely, if you prefert to build nice networks yourself
13:02<@planetmaker>but once the network effect kicks in: then you win. you win big time
13:02<@planetmaker>but win... if you define "winning" in terms of operational profit
13:03<samu>these carriages have multiple colors yet they're the same?
13:03<LordAro>planetmaker: true, but denver usually screws up its first route, then just sits there waiting for money :L
13:03<@planetmaker>yeah, maybe. I removed it long ago from my list of AIs
13:04<samu>they're doing good
13:04<samu>denver 4 trains
13:04<samu>they all profit
13:05<samu>profit higher than my 1 train
13:07<samu>denver picked 50 boxcar
13:07<samu>do the different colors mean something?
13:10<samu>i dont understand these colors
13:12<LordAro>probably not
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13:26<samu>why do some wagons get different colors
13:30<+glx>probably random stuff for more realism
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13:45<samu>regearing
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25316 /trunk/src/lang (3 files in 2 dirs) (2013-06-02 17:45:15 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 34 changes by RunisLabs
13:45<@DorpsGek>macedonian - 1 changes by Ristovski
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 26 changes by cuthbert
13:46<samu>there is nothing that carries livestock?
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13:50<@Alberth>depends on your vehicle sets
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13:52<samu>so many trains and wagons, and there's none for livestock :(
13:52<samu>how do I fix it?
13:52<@Rubidium>maybe read about refitting on the wiki?
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13:53<samu>i sorted by livestock, it's empty
13:58<samu>is it intended or did I screw something?
14:01<@Alberth>I think those two options are not mutually exclusive :p
14:01<@Alberth>obviously, when the vehicle set does not provide livestock transport, it is intended
14:02<@Alberth>either because at the time of creating that set, therewas no such need, or the author did not consider it important, or some other reason
14:02<@planetmaker>Alberth, absence of a possibility does not imply intention
14:02<@planetmaker>;-)
14:02<@Alberth>the author could also have forgotten about it
14:03<@planetmaker>as in "some other reason" = bug :-)
14:03<@Alberth>planetmaker: happy now? :)
14:03*planetmaker is happy
14:03*Alberth is happy too
14:03<@planetmaker>setting refits properly is a bitch in NewGRF terrain
14:03<@planetmaker>easy to miss a single possibility in the HUGE list
14:04<@Alberth>samu: for some sets, therere are addition newgrfs that add transport options for newer industry newgrfs
14:04<@planetmaker>especially if you want it realistically ;-)
14:04<samu>i am using this only
14:05<samu>the nars
14:05<samu>v 2.03
14:06<samu>North American Renewal Set
14:08<@Alberth>too realistic for me :)
14:14<V453000>:P
14:26<samu>aha, 1961
14:27<samu>modern livestock
14:28<V453000>does NARS have any era when animal wagons are missing?
14:28<samu>yes
14:28<V453000>amazing
14:28<samu>1950-1961 at least
14:28<V453000>good train set
14:29<V453000>you could always turn vehicles_never_expire on though
14:31<samu>no livestock for maglev
14:31<samu>oil
14:31<samu>wow, there's many missing cars in maglev
14:32<samu>well I guess it's intended
14:32<V453000>that is intended
14:32<V453000>if you consider it missing, I suggest trying NUTS though :P
14:38<samu>cattle car
14:38<V453000>nuts is a train set
14:39<V453000>though with the amount of focus on animals you could almost call it a cattle car :P
14:39<samu>cattle car disappeared in 1921
14:42<samu>modern livestock car appears in 1961
14:42<samu>40 years without livestock cargo
14:43<V453000>yep, not all train sets are meant to be actually played with as you can see
14:44<samu>downloading nuts unrealistic train set
14:46<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/wiki might come in handy
14:46<@Alberth>or perhaps not to be played with as you see it :)
14:47<samu>there is no passengers
14:47<samu>hmmm :o
14:47<samu>nevermind, there are
14:47<samu>the filter was set to livestock
14:47<@Alberth>"Vehicles never expire - on" :D
14:48<@Alberth>I break a lot of your rules, it seems, V :)
14:48<V453000>NUTS vehicles cant expire :)
14:48<V453000>those arent rules but suggestions :)
14:49<V453000>if you make your fast train classes useless with weight multiplier, not my problem :P
14:53<samu>80 passengers a carriage though it says 40
14:55<+glx>should be rush hour :)
14:56<V453000>it also probably says that capacity changes based on which engine they are attached to
14:56<samu>rainbow trains... gee...
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15:00<samu>cheap engine £12.000 moves at 150 km/h... this is bad
15:01<@planetmaker>samu, NUTS is one of the best-balanced and most complete trainsets there is. It certainly is innovative in many things
15:01<@planetmaker>And it certainy is not your pot of tea if you expect a simulation instead of a game
15:02<@Alberth>wetrails is not at the wiki yet
15:02<samu>it's 1962 and i have a train going 191 km/h
15:03<@planetmaker>the year ... does it have meaning?
15:03<@Alberth>openttd citizens value speedy delivery
15:04<V453000>Alberth: they will be once they get more friends
15:04<V453000>also there isnt really much to write about that :D
15:05<frosch123>night
15:05<@Alberth>haven't yet tried them
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15:05<@Alberth>night frosch123
15:05<@Alberth>damn!
15:12<samu>sorry, i dont like this
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15:21<@Alberth>samu: it's a great set if you want to concentrate on building and transporting.
15:22<@Alberth>otherwise, you may be better off with a different set
15:23<samu>must find something TTDX like, if it exists
15:23<samu>or rather not use anything
15:24<@Alberth>opgfx+trains ?
15:24<samu>let me search
15:24<@Alberth>also has ogfx+roadvehicles and a few other + gfrs
15:25<@Alberth>they are intended as enhancements to the default set
15:33<samu>oh, i see autorefit option
15:33<samu>so that's how it works
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15:35<samu>full load any cargo with auto-refit to available cargo
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15:39<opr>hi all :) i was wondering how are you meant to give water to a town with no water tower?
15:40<samu>fund new industry
15:40<@Terkhen>hi opr; you need to fund one
15:40<@Terkhen>good night
15:40<opr>ahh ok, that's in the local authority thing?
15:40<samu>it's on industry button
15:41<samu>placing it however, is hard to figure out at first
15:42<opr>ah ok i think i get how to do it! but wow it's so expensive
15:43<opr>does anyone want to take a quick look at my server to see if i've done everything properly? i've only just started playing and i bet i've made some dumb mistakes :p
15:44<samu>no
15:45<V453000>lol
15:45<opr>why is my bus stop rating Poor, when I have 4 buses and there are only ever 2-10 passengers waiting and they always get picked up
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15:47<samu>is town small? or is distance very long?
15:48<samu>meh nevermind, what is the server? i join
15:48<opr>i'll pm u
15:50<samu>sec, it's a webiste?
15:50<opr>no that's the IP
15:50<opr>just put that in the add server bit
15:51<samu>where is it?! did it get lost with all the rest ?
15:52<opr>i had to restart my game for it to show up
15:53<samu>ah i found it mixed with all other games
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16:39<Ristovski>fuck, spent 20 mins doing signals and at the end my trains crashed anyways... fml
16:39<@planetmaker>:-)
16:49<Ristovski>I will never gonna be able to do signals D:
16:51<@Rubidium>good reason to not become a signal engineer in the real world then ;)
16:53<@planetmaker>a friend of mine works at TÜV South in the department which issue qualification for rail signal plannings for switchyards, stations, etc....
16:53<@planetmaker>Listening to him sometimes is frightening ;-)
16:54<@planetmaker>"yes, I can give you permission to use the switchyard. Without trains, that is"
16:54<@Rubidium>as long as he isn't the one that gave safety qualifications to the Fyra, he can't be that bad ;)
16:55<LordAro>night all
16:55<@planetmaker>night, LordAro
16:56<LordAro>probably won't see me again for the next couple of weeks - exams :/
16:56<LordAro>well, *shouldn't* see me anyway :L
16:57<LordAro>bye
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16:59<@Rubidium>is he going to pull an andy?
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17:14<@planetmaker>good night
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17:57<samu>question about autorenew
17:57<samu>the replace vehicles with autorenew company setting
17:58<samu>i have a ship
17:58<samu>it's past old age
17:58<samu>but it's not renewing because i also have told to replace it with another model, more expensive
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17:59<samu>damn, it's harder to explain in english
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18:00<samu>gonna try again, I have a MPS ship aged 35 years old when it's max age is 30
18:01<samu>I also have enough money to autorenew it to another MPS
18:01<samu>but it didn't renew
18:01<samu>was that because I also told to replace it with a Bakewell? A more expensive model?
18:02<samu>even though I have the autorenew setting turned on?
18:02<samu>replace MPS ship to Bakewell ship when old?
18:04<samu>sorry, my brain is failing me again
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18:16<samu>oh course it isn't renewing
18:16<samu>it would become new again and have to wait 30 more years to be old
18:17<samu>of*
18:17<samu>my error
18:20<V453000>there isnt any reason to autorenew if you use breakdowns off
18:20<samu>breakdowns are normal
18:21<V453000>breakdowns are wrong :)
18:21<samu>are set to normal
18:21<V453000>none is preferable
18:22<samu>just got the new ship
18:22<samu>the bakewell
18:22<samu>well sorry all
18:23<samu>6 years past max age with all those breakdowns, I have to be careful with this
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18:47<samu>hmm just noticed ships have too much advantage when infrastructure costs are enabled
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18:53<@peter1138>possibly because nobody uses ships
19:00<V453000>aaand infrastructure maintenance isnt the most fortunate thing either :)
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19:45<SineTheCreator>peter1138: i do, but it's rare
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20:15<samu>big brother vip
20:17<samu>the most interesting thing out of bbv are the graphs
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20:45<samu>desync error :(
20:46<samu>someone joined my game and left immediately with desync error, anything I can do about it?
20:47<samu>maybe i shouldn't worry too much :/
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21:17<opr>going to bed samu
21:17<opr>thanks for playing on my server :p
21:17<opr>thanks for helping too
21:17<samu>np
21:17<samu>i learned a few things too
21:17<samu>cya
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 03 00:00:48 2013