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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-06-04

---Logopened Tue Jun 04 00:00:50 2013
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01:05<SineTheCreator>hey guys, i forget - how do i get industries to drastically increase their output?
01:06<SineTheCreator>i remember back in the day having coal mines and such that put out 900+ tons of coal per month
01:06<Supercheese>Are you using any industry newgrfs?
01:06<SineTheCreator>i'm using FIRS, but let's assume i'm talking defaults
01:06<Supercheese>default industries, you need high station ratings for them to increase output
01:06<SineTheCreator>i'm playing a multiplayer game with defaults
01:06<Supercheese>FIRS is different of course
01:06<SineTheCreator>yeah, with FIRS it's out input/output
01:07<SineTheCreator>how do i increase (or even view) station ratings?
01:07<SineTheCreator>nevermind, found it
01:07<SineTheCreator>okay... so how do i increase the rating?
01:08<Supercheese>and then
01:09<SineTheCreator>so basically, i should always keep a train on the station platform loading?
01:09<SineTheCreator>and those trains should always be new?
01:09<Supercheese>That's one method
01:10<Supercheese>Very fast vehicles is another
01:10<Supercheese>building status in the relevant towns is another
01:10<SineTheCreator>okay... any way to switch it to the old model? i seem to recall it being "the more trains you send, the more they output" after a little while
01:10<Supercheese>There is no "old model"
01:10<Supercheese>this is the way it's always been
01:11<Supercheese>but essentially, the more trains you send the better bonus for "days since last cargo pickup"
01:11<Supercheese>and less cargo waiting = bonus to rating
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01:12<Supercheese>There are a couple "easy" things you can do to "hack" yourself higher station ratings
01:12<SineTheCreator>blargh, gotcha*
01:12<SineTheCreator>such as?
01:13<Supercheese>1) write a newgrf that changes station rating mechanics
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01:14<Supercheese>2) write a newgrf that adds really fast vehicles -- you can make them invisible, have very little cargo capacity or whatnot as well
01:15<Supercheese>that'll permanently get the +17% speed bonus and the +51% days since last pickup bonus, meaning minimum 68% ratings all the time
01:15<SineTheCreator>i'll give the default rating mechanics a shot
01:15<SineTheCreator>if i could figure it out back in the day i can figure it out again :D
01:15<Supercheese>if you always have enough transport waiting so cargo never builds up, then you can always have 84% minimum ratings
01:16<SineTheCreator>so basically if there's always a train loading at the station 84% is the minium, regardless of age?
01:16<Supercheese>no, that's with the speed bonus too
01:16<SineTheCreator>over 84 km/h
01:16<SineTheCreator>does that translate to (roughly) 55mph?
01:17<Supercheese>well, the formula is actually (Speed (km/h) - 85) / 4
01:17<Supercheese>so you need quite a bit more than 55 mph
01:17<Supercheese>FIRS is much nicer, none of this ratings-influencing-production-changes wizardry
01:18<SineTheCreator>yeah, but with FIRS there basically is no primary industry
01:18<SineTheCreator>each industry is both primary and secondary
01:18<Supercheese>Fishing grounds :P
01:18<SineTheCreator>ahh, yeah i didn't think of those :D
01:18<SineTheCreator>with fishing grounds is it even possible to bump up production
01:18<Supercheese>you can deliver pax to them but it doesn't affect anything
01:18<Supercheese>they have fixed prod levels
01:19<SineTheCreator>i wish they didn't :/
01:19<Supercheese>random at generation
01:19<Supercheese>you can always prospect more :P
01:19<SineTheCreator>i want to build a FIRS ro-ro station with 20 trains arriving and leaving every minute
01:19<SineTheCreator>i guess that's kind of impossible
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01:19<Supercheese>Why would it be?
01:19<Supercheese>FIRS industries can reach insane production levels
01:19<SineTheCreator>eh, you'd need a 2048x2048 map with every industry tapped going to one place
01:19<Supercheese>secondary and tertiary ones anyway
01:21<SineTheCreator>hmm... this forest is actually dropping production rates, although my rating is still very good
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01:21<Supercheese>yeah, it's still random
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01:22<Supercheese>just you have a much better chance for increases with high station ratings
01:22<Supercheese>I often get some FIRS steel mills generating so much metal I have to switch over to using ships, because no other method of transport has enough capacity
01:22<SineTheCreator>even trains!?
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01:23<Supercheese>Well, I start late-19th-century
01:23<SineTheCreator>you use NARS or UKR?
01:23<Supercheese>so the trains aren't quite able to handle the levels of production
01:23<SineTheCreator><- NARS user
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01:24<Supercheese>I like NARS but it has no autorefit
01:24<SineTheCreator>are the UKRS trains less powerful?
01:24<Supercheese>autorefit is mandatory
01:24<SineTheCreator>or just too slow?
01:24<SineTheCreator>also are you sure about NARS? i've seen autorefit options when putting a depot in orders
01:24<SineTheCreator>or do you mean autorefit at the station?
01:24<Supercheese>autorefit ≠ refit-in-depot
01:25<Supercheese>autorefit is refit-in-station
01:25<SineTheCreator>hrm i'll have to try that
01:25<SineTheCreator>that's interesting!
01:25<SineTheCreator>so you could use one train to transfer steel and then it autorefits itself to goods after unloading
01:25<SineTheCreator>so you could have one train that can run the entire A-B-C pipeline
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01:26<SineTheCreator>i will definitely need to experiment with this
01:37<Supercheese>Yeah, autorefit is awesome
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02:16<SineTheCreator>how do i share orders between already-exiting trains? or is ctrl+clone the only way?
02:17<@planetmaker>ctrl+click goto order
02:17<@planetmaker>onto the train you want to share with
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02:37<@DorpsGek>Commit by matthijs :: r25318 /trunk/src/video (sdl_v.cpp sdl_v.h) (2013-06-04 06:36:59 UTC)
02:37<@DorpsGek>-Fix: [SDL, FS#5580] Keyboard input stopped working after fullscreen toggle
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03:06<SineTheCreator>planetmaker: thank you
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09:12<SineTheCreator>okay so something really bad is going on in my game
09:14<SineTheCreator>i have this mainline junction here ->
09:14<SineTheCreator>for reasons i cannot explain, the little train right there can't go the correct way for some reason
09:15<SineTheCreator>it's supposed to go northeast
09:15<SineTheCreator>instead, it somehow manages to act like it's gonna go northeast and goes southeast instead
09:15<SineTheCreator>it goes to the wrong stations, turns around, and just keeps on going
09:15<SineTheCreator>the orders are one station load -> another station unload. repeat.
09:15<SineTheCreator>all other trains using the junction seem unaffected
09:17<samu>90 degrees? electric vs non-electric rail?
09:18<SineTheCreator>electric. all electric.
09:18<SineTheCreator>electric signals too, i went through and manually switched each one over just incase
09:18<SineTheCreator>didn't fix it
09:18<Pinkbeast>Electric vs semaphore signals is pure eye candy.
09:19<Pinkbeast>... it's not clear to me _how_ it would go north-east.
09:19<SineTheCreator>i prefer the semaphores personally
09:20<SineTheCreator>Pinkbeast: easy. it would cross the bridge going southeast, then hit the cloverleaf
09:20<SineTheCreator>the one on the bottom of the screenshot
09:20<Pinkbeast>I don't mind which you prefer, I am just saying, there is no game-mechanical difference
09:20<SineTheCreator>which would send it northeast
09:20<SineTheCreator>i thought so too
09:20<SineTheCreator>apparently it's not the source of the problem
09:20<samu>i guess 90 degrees is turned off then
09:20<samu>forbid 90 degrees?
09:21<SineTheCreator>nah, it's on
09:21<SineTheCreator>i don't use it, but it's on
09:21<Pinkbeast>I don't see any 90 degree turns in there...
09:21<SineTheCreator>there are no 90 turns anyways
09:21<SineTheCreator>the only ones i added is at the termination points
09:21<@planetmaker>electric engine with non-electrified track piece anywhere?
09:21<@planetmaker>Or somewhere a block signal facing wrong way?
09:21<samu>is the path ai aware
09:22<samu>of 90 degrees when chosing a route?
09:22<SineTheCreator>samu: ? no ai here, singleplayer with me only
09:22<SineTheCreator>oh, i see what you're saying
09:22<SineTheCreator>yes, these junctions have worked for years
09:22<SineTheCreator>it's not a problem with the pathing unless it's a new bug
09:22<Pinkbeast>Is there no route from the SE rails to where it's meant to be going?
09:22<SineTheCreator>planetmaker: i tried to check everything. it's all electrified, i couldn't find a bad signal
09:23<SineTheCreator>Pinkbeast: nope, not that i can tell. not unless there are 'ghost
09:23<SineTheCreator>' orders somewhere
09:23<samu>I see 2 possible routes in the image, one needs 90 degrees on
09:23<@planetmaker>the bad tile may be outside the junction
09:23<@planetmaker>just convert the whole map to electrical
09:23<SineTheCreator>i checked the orders and it had an 'implicit' entry, i removed it
09:23<SineTheCreator>planetmaker: i did
09:23<SineTheCreator>my entire network is electric
09:23<samu>i mean off*
09:23<SineTheCreator>my company status even confirms
09:24<SineTheCreator>samu: none of those routes need 90 degree turns
09:24<SineTheCreator>a 90 degree turn is when you have a 90 degree bend in one grid square
09:24<SineTheCreator>i have none of those :D
09:24<Pinkbeast>Sine: It could also turn right and go around the 90 degree turn at the terminated line.
09:24<SineTheCreator>Pinkbeast: yeah. it does do that when it gets hung up
09:24<Pinkbeast>So, yes you do, we can see it very clearly.
09:24<SineTheCreator>i only added that to get the train unstuck
09:24<Pinkbeast>I thought you said it went off to the SE?
09:25<SineTheCreator>nah, i want it to go north east
09:25<SineTheCreator>it's coming from NW
09:25<Pinkbeast>I know.
09:25<SineTheCreator>it should go NE
09:25<SineTheCreator>nothing is SE yet
09:25<SineTheCreator>er, i mean it's going SE
09:25<SineTheCreator>nothing is SW yet
09:25<samu>there are 3 circles
09:25<Pinkbeast>"and goes southeast instead"
09:25<samu>oops 4
09:25<SineTheCreator>there is only one station on SE direction
09:25<SineTheCreator>it's a coal station
09:26<SineTheCreator>samu: i checked, the track is all there. other trains use it fine
09:26<Pinkbeast>Sine: It's hard to diagnose this if you cannot describe the behaviour accurately.
09:26<samu>the train aproaches the first circle and turns towards bottom
09:26<SineTheCreator>it's just these two with shared orders
09:26<samu>and doesn't take bridge
09:26<SineTheCreator>Pinkbeast: i described it accurately the first time!
09:26<Pinkbeast>Sine: So the train doesn't take the 90 degree turn route?
09:26<SineTheCreator>it does but it shouldn't ever need to
09:26<SineTheCreator>i only put that there because the train got stuck at that termination point
09:26<Pinkbeast>So you did not describe it accurately the first time.
09:27<SineTheCreator>i needed to get it out
09:27<Pinkbeast>You said the train goes south-east.
09:27<samu>omg save game plz
09:27<Pinkbeast>Yes, it it.
09:27<SineTheCreator>yes, it does. there is no termination point there. just a station.
09:27<SineTheCreator>the termination point on the shot is SW
09:27<Pinkbeast>Because the whole reason planet suspected there's a bad tile outside the diagram is that you told us something that isn't actually true!
09:28<SineTheCreator>maybe this will help -> the train is coming from upper left. it should go to upper right, but it goes lower right instead. sometimes it gets trapped in the cloverleaf junction.
09:28<SineTheCreator>does that make more sense?
09:28<Pinkbeast>"it goes lower right" - so it _doesn't_ go around the 90 degree turn?
09:28<samu>lower right
09:29<SineTheCreator>Pinkbeast: other trains make the same route this one should make just fine
09:29<Pinkbeast>Sine: Great. But please answer the question I asked.
09:29<SineTheCreator>Pinkbeast: which 90 degree turn?
09:29<SineTheCreator>the one in the lower left, yes?
09:29<SineTheCreator>yes, these trains for some reason do go there and make that turn
09:29<SineTheCreator>they shouldn't but they do
09:30<SineTheCreator>but THEN, instead of going straight, they cut right again and go southeast
09:30<SineTheCreator>it's weird
09:30<Pinkbeast>See, this is much easier when you describe the behaviour that actually occurs!
09:31<SineTheCreator>it's fixed
09:31<Pinkbeast>Can _any_ train use the side-line - suppose you delete a tile of the SW->NE main line then try and run a train through SW->NE (just place a depot in the SW), what happens?
09:31<SineTheCreator>i deleted a signal and re-added it. same signal, same direction.
09:31<SineTheCreator>suddenly it works no
09:31<SineTheCreator>should i file a bug here?
09:32<Pinkbeast>Do you have a savegame from beforehand?
09:32<Pinkbeast>... which signal?
09:32<SineTheCreator>yes, but it's loaded with newgrfs. all of them are available on banannas though
09:32<SineTheCreator>one-way path electric
09:32<SineTheCreator>far right
09:33<Pinkbeast>_If_ you ask, post before and after savegames; don't post a bug, just ask.
09:33<SineTheCreator>okay, will do. thanks.
09:33<SineTheCreator>i wonder if that signal i magically randomly selected was somehow facing the wrong way even though the sprite showed it facing the correct way
09:34<SineTheCreator>although that would stop other trains
09:34<SineTheCreator>oh wells... i dunno. odd stuff.
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09:34<@planetmaker>do you still have a savegame from before?
09:35<SineTheCreator>do you want it planetmaker ?
09:35<SineTheCreator>i know what it is! the damn signal WAS facing the wrong way.
09:36<@planetmaker>:-) good. then I don't want it
09:36<SineTheCreator>i just loaded up the old game and looked real close at the signal i swapped
09:36<SineTheCreator>it WAS wrong
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09:36<samu>my paint skills:
09:36<SineTheCreator>but somehow it was also letting other trains through. i guess it was a two-way path signal
09:36<@planetmaker>one of the most common mistakes with "why doesn't it work"
09:36<SineTheCreator>i must have hit ctrl or something when placing it?
09:37<Pinkbeast>Sine: is the signal in the screenshot? I'm not quite clear on which one it is.
09:37<samu>bad paint skills :(
09:37<samu>the darkish yellow line should be green
09:40<SineTheCreator>Pinkbeast: nah, it was further up a bit
09:40<SineTheCreator>near the edge of the screenshot but just outside of it
09:41<samu>fixed image:
09:45<SineTheCreator>im glad this got fixed, thanks for the help :D
09:45<SineTheCreator>i was banging my head against the wall
09:46<samu>rate my image 1 to 10
09:47<SineTheCreator>samu: that's exactly how it works, yeah
09:47<SineTheCreator>or did
09:47<SineTheCreator>now that the problem is fixed it works properly
09:48<SineTheCreator>the trains in question take the yellow line for reference
09:48<SineTheCreator>or should have been
09:49<SineTheCreator>one thing i don't like about UK renewal ... the mineral hopper is limited to 50mph
09:50<SineTheCreator>it makes it hard to use engines with a good mix of power and reliability that aren't also rated for a much higher speed
09:50<SineTheCreator>and obviously a higher running cost
09:53<alluke>the image sucks
09:54<alluke>firstly because i see 90° turns
09:54<alluke>secondly because you saved it as jpg
09:54<samu>i did?
09:55<samu>Imagem PNG (.png)
09:56<samu>ah I see
09:56<samu>blame imgur
09:56<samu>i uploaded as png
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10:04<samu>the jpg file is smaller anyway
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10:29<samu>battlefield 4 coming already?... I smell EA is behind this franchise... wasn't 3 released a few months ago?
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11:05<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25319 /trunk/src (3 files) (2013-06-04 15:04:59 UTC)
11:05<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5570]: crash when train with reserved cargo vanishes
11:06<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25320 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-06-04 15:06:22 UTC)
11:06<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5577]: link graph start time was not accounted for when cheating dates
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12:01<samu>hi, i am observing something wrong going on my game
12:01<samu>i have smooth economy disabled
12:02<samu>but some coal mines are already producing 1080 tonne a month
12:02<samu>and there was no one transporting it
12:02<samu>coal was being delivered to one of my stations only, but I wasn't transporting that
12:02<samu>is it normal?
12:03<samu>even worse, there's a gold mine producing 506 bags a month
12:03<samu>not even a station is around
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12:05<samu>i counted 7 primary industrues with increased production , 2 industries with base production and 5 with decreased production
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12:08<samu>out of those 7, 2 are at max production, according to wiki
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12:09<samu>the coal mine and the gold mine I referred
12:13<samu>2 out of those 5 at min production
12:13<V453000>so, enable smooth economy? :D
12:13<samu>what is so wrongwith my questions...
12:13<samu>if i wanted smooth economy it would be enabled already
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12:14<V453000>and reason why smooth economy is not an option are
12:15<samu>it diplays 5000 news a month
12:15<V453000>disable the news?
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12:17<samu>ok simple question, which one is harder? smooth or this?
12:17<samu>despite the annoying news
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12:18<samu>thank you
12:18<Pinkbeast>And, as V453 says, disable industry production change news
12:18<samu>i like to take care of what's being produced
12:19<samu>but thanks
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12:20<samu>the original issue was why's a gold mine and coal mine were already at max production
12:20<samu>if no one was transporing them
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12:44<SineTheCreator>samu: btw when you export openttd PNGs for upload, try using to do it and select 8pbit
12:44<SineTheCreator>8-bit* even
12:44<SineTheCreator>openttd runs in 8-bit anyways so nothing of value is lost :D
12:44<SineTheCreator>well... unless you use a 32-bit tileset
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12:47<samu>2H5wSal - it's 8-bit PNG format
12:47<samu>the original image I edited
12:48<samu>my awesome paint skills - 32-bit PNG format
12:49<samu>no, 24 bit
12:49<samu>omg, 32 bit?
12:50<samu>I'm confused, I tryin again
12:50<samu>2H5wSal - your image, 8-bit PNG 189 KB (194.078 bytes)
12:51<samu>my awesome paint skills - my image, 32-bit PNG 865 KB (886.155 bytes)
12:52<samu>bs0sTsC - imgur image - 24-bit JPG 249 KB (255.019 bytes)
12:54<samu>openttd images are sometimes 32-bit, sometimes 8-bit
12:58<samu>oh, also found one 24-bit
12:58<szaman>32 bit image is a 24 bit image with transparency
12:59<szaman>jpeg has no transparency at all so it is only 24 bit
12:59<samu>crash - 716 KB (733.726 bytes) - 24-bit
13:01<samu>out of 23 images, 2 are 24-bit, 21 are 8-bit
13:01<samu>generated by openttd
13:02<+glx>depends on used blitter
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13:02<samu>there's no 32-bit image atm
13:02<samu>maybe i mistaken it with paint
13:03<samu>what is the bit in full screen?
13:04<+glx>blitter usually don't change when going to fullscreen
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13:05<samu>sometimes I get 24-bit - or apparently, very rarely
13:05<+glx>24bit is 32bit without transparency
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13:06<samu>Samu Transport, 2016-06-26
13:06<samu>that one is 24-bit
13:07<samu>doesn't seem anything special
13:07<szaman>24 bit = RGB = 8bit red, 9bit green, 8bit blue
13:07<szaman>32 bit = RGBA = 8bit red, 9bit green, 8bit blue, 8bit alpha (transparency)
13:07<+glx>8 bit = palette
13:08<samu>but openttd makes 8-bit images
13:08<+glx>when 8bpp blitter is used
13:08<samu>ah, no idea what that is
13:08<+glx>when running 32bpp blitter then screenshot are 32bit
13:09<samu>it's a screenshot generated by openttd, it's 24-bit, i look at it, it looks original_windows, desert game
13:10<+glx>there are no differences visually between 8bpp and 32bpp screenshot using original files
13:10<+glx>but if you use a 32bpp set it will have more colors
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13:12<szaman>glx: but when images use different 8bpp palettes on their own, then 8bpp screenshot can look a little worse than original files?
13:13<+glx>of course if the palette is modified everything changes :)
13:14<samu>i'm uploading this image, maybe you can see something i don't
13:18<samu>the other 24-bit image is corrupt
13:18<samu>it was a crash.png file
13:20<samu>didn't notice it was looking like crap when i sent the report
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25321 trunk/src/lang/tamil.txt (2013-06-04 17:45:07 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>tamil - 18 changes by aswn
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16:11<samu>zu, did you make clueless ai?
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16:13*samu slaps Yexo around a bit with a large fishbot
16:16<samu>Yexo, are you
16:16<samu>AdmiralAI v25 Thijs Marinussen
16:20<samu>AdmiralAI is one of the most stable AIs
16:21<samu>but it risks way too much with bankrupt warnings
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16:26<samu>should make a battle of the stables
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17:54<samu>audio problem again
17:55<samu>how many audio devices should my system have? 1? 3?
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17:56<samu>I see AMD HDMI Output
17:56<samu>Realtek Digital Output
17:56<samu>Realtek Digital Output(Optical)
17:57<samu>ot's 4... :(
17:57<samu>i use SPeakers only
17:57<samu>Started a 2nd instance of OpenTTD and it was playing on Realtek Digital Output(Optical)...
17:58<samu>this annoys me, i can never get sound working without problems for once...
17:59<samu>every once in a while, sound gets messed up
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably a problem of your own making
18:00<samu>i don't do anything, it just happens
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>that's what they all say
18:00<samu>what did I do?
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>how should i know?
18:02<+glx>you have usual outputs on modern pc (graphic card + sound card (jack, cinch, optical))
18:03<+glx>and openttd uses the one set as system default
18:03<samu>was playing music on windows media player
18:03<samu>almost all day
18:03<samu>and just now it messes up
18:03<+glx>just kill audiodg like the other time
18:04<+glx>I really think your drivers are the problem
18:04<samu>system default is speakers
18:05<samu>that's where I hear sound
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18:05<samu>deactivated for the other 3
18:05<samu>amd hdmi output says turned off on top of deactivated
18:06<samu>the sound mixers shows me 3 sound devices
18:06<samu>the 2 realtek ones and the speakers
18:08<+glx>the 3 are on the same hardware
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18:09<samu>downloading realtek 2.71
18:11<samu>i have 2.70 installed
18:18<samu>will hope it fixes it
18:18<samu>but i have serious doubts
18:19<samu>now i dont know if i have to uninstall creative x-fi
18:20<juzza1>you are using integrated and x-fi?
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18:22<samu>that's the thing
18:22<juzza1>but why do you use the integrated one if you have a dedicated sound card
18:23<samu>no, the x-fi is integrated into ... the integrated
18:23<samu>the real hardware is realtek
18:23<samu>then there's a x-fi chip nearby
18:24<+glx>like all integrated soundchip ;)
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18:36<samu>this topic describes it best -
18:36<samu>Manufacturers want to market their Motherboard in the best way so they buy a “X-Fi 2 SupremeFx” sticker”
18:36<samu>i like that part
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18:37<samu>This chip (Realtek ALC889 @ ATI SB800 - High Definition Audio Controller) needs a driver from Realtek.
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18:48<+glx>this high end motherboard seems crappy when reading this topic
18:55<samu>microsoft blogs blames these similar issues on audio drivers
18:56<samu>you guys too
18:56<+glx>the procedure to get working sound is very complicated
18:57<+glx>install driver for hardware, install software to enable some feature of the hardware, activate the software, ...
18:58<+glx>when a basic realtek HD just works :)
18:58<samu>asus motherboards are disappointing
18:58<samu>deceiving, perhaps
18:58<+glx>they used to be good
18:59<samu>they work, but the way they support it SUCKS
18:59<samu>just listing drivers out of their site is ridiculous
19:03<samu>to downloa chipset drivers out asus i need 845 MB!!!
19:04<samu>if i download them from amd site i need only 27 MB
19:05<samu>asus also lists 3 "AMD Chipset Driver"s
19:06<samu>they don't direct me to the most recent one, they don't even know what's the most recent
19:06<samu>I have to guess
19:09<+glx>in the utility section it's funny too
19:09<+glx>cpu-z 1.57.2 is more recent than cpu-z 1.58
19:10<+glx>when looking at the dates
19:11<+glx>oh there are 2 different 1.57.2
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19:37<samu>reading those articles, "please check out with your mobo, or... maybe your jacks suck" - that's how i feel
19:41<samu>bounce-customer-around support... i hate it
19:42<samu>he goes dizzy and gives up... "our partnership is a success!"
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---Logclosed Wed Jun 05 00:00:51 2013