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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-06-06

---Logopened Thu Jun 06 00:00:53 2013
00:31<George>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5588
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08:02<@planetmaker>Zuu doesn't like my story books :-(
08:27<Zuu>planetmaker: The user don't write the book
08:28<Zuu>I do like the icon where you see the height of the book, but don't know if it fits the TTD style.
08:41<@planetmaker>That's true, it seems to not exactly fit the others
08:43<@planetmaker>But the plain sheets are very similar imho to the news icon
08:47<@planetmaker>with the pen I thought more instead of writing yourself it's the story as its being written
08:51<Zuu>I see your point
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09:59<Samu>hi
09:59<ntoskrnl>hi
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10:30<Samu>oh nice, a new version of OtviAI v418
10:31<Samu>and BorkAI
10:31<Samu>*must try*
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11:52<@Belugas>hello
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12:51<Samu>hi
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12:57<Samu>intel iris pro reviews are insane, rip AMD
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13:01<Samu>that's sad to see, wathcing those graphs, even puts nvidia into jeopardy
13:03<Samu>http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6993/55285.png
13:03<sla_ro|master>:O
13:03<sla_ro|master>I got GT 640
13:04<Samu>it's still a quad-core cpu
13:04<Samu>with HT
13:04<sla_ro|master>I like NVIDIA, beside the price
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13:25<Samu>I'm coming into a scoring scheme for the existing OpenTTD AIs
13:26<Samu>an average score for each AI, running 16 different settings
13:27-!-ksf [~ksf@d186090.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #openttd
13:27<Samu>and using excel this time, at least I can sort columns
13:27<ksf>so... split before you join, *all times and always*?
13:27<Samu>notepad would make me lost
13:27<ksf>I've got a counterexample here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Frankfurter_Kreuz.png
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13:28<ksf>(right lane traffic)
13:29<Samu>hi ksf, wrong channel or did i miss somethnig
13:29<ksf>nah, I just crashed in and defined the topic to be hub design.
13:30<Samu>hmm I missed something :(
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13:32<ksf>the usual problem with joining lines before you split is that that's prone to jamming.
13:33<ksf>the formula in frankfurt, for the lower horizontal lane from left to right is split, join, split, join, though.
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13:38<Samu>hias
13:39<V453000>if you are trying to justify your broken game logic with a real-life road junction, good luck
13:40<V453000>[yes split before join]
13:41<ksf>it works because the join->split path actually only ever has crossing vehicles if they want to reverse.
13:42<ksf>...you could completely separate those lanes and end up with a pure split before join, at the expense of reversing.
13:43<ksf>the question, here, is "is the rarest of rare cases worth the bother".
13:45<V453000>why would you even let trains reverse in your junction
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25323 /trunk/src/lang (hungarian.txt traditional_chinese.txt) (2013-06-06 17:45:14 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>traditional_chinese - 34 changes by siu238X
13:45<@DorpsGek>hungarian - 5 changes by Brumi
13:45<Pinkbeast>Er, it sounds more like "are real-world motorway junctions a good guide to designing OTTD railway junctions" (to which the answer is "no")
13:45<V453000>if they need to reverse there is something seriously wrong on your network
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13:46<Pinkbeast>Or, and I know what you're going to say, one has chased off after a depot oblivious to where that will take it next
13:46<ksf>accidents can happen, especially when changing stuff.
13:46<Pinkbeast>If you want to let trains reverse that can be done without futzing with complex junctions.
13:49<ksf>you mean by futzing with equally complex reverse points?
13:50<ksf>(that never get any kind of traffic)
13:50<Pinkbeast>No; reversing can be done very simply if it is only to be used when mistakes happen, hence capacity not much of an issue.
13:51<ksf>yes. and because capacity is not an issue, it can be done safely in a hub.
13:51<ksf>...even with join before split *for this case only*, as it's not going to jam anything.
13:52<Pinkbeast>The junction you posted isn't join before split for this case only. (It's traffic crossing traffic for this case only).
13:54<ksf>...which implies join before split.
13:56<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25324 /trunk/bin/baseset (8 files) (2013-06-06 17:56:02 UTC)
13:56<@DorpsGek>-Update: the baseset translations
13:56<Pinkbeast>It's also join before split for plenty of other cases.
13:56<ksf>the vertical paths all support complete lane separation.
13:56<Pinkbeast>X implies Y does not imply Y implies X; join before split does not imply traffic crossing traffic - trivially so when the mainline is one line each way
13:58<ksf>...note that you're not supposed to split off from the mainline and then later re-join the same one.
13:58<Pinkbeast>On the face of it that junction looks like a classic example of what's wrong with join before split; extra capacity added in the junction to compensate. Trivial in this case; not so much in OTTD-land where a lane has quite a significant width.
13:59<ksf>that's 4m per lane on the autobahn
14:00<Pinkbeast>Er yes, and the junction is perhaps 800m across. An OTTD junction 200 tiles across might be felt to be unsatisfactory.
14:01<ksf>well, it's only got three lanes.
14:01<Pinkbeast>I have no idea what that's meant to convey.
14:02<Pinkbeast>An OTTD lane is wider in relative terms than a real one.
14:02<ksf>trains are generally relatively big in OTTD.
14:02<ksf>...and distances short.
14:03<ksf>from the POV of the trains, at least.
14:03<Samu>nerf trains
14:03<Pinkbeast>ksf: I am well aware of these things, yes - so what?
14:03<ksf>good question.
14:04<Pinkbeast>The point is that on that thing, adding another pair of lanes parallel to the "mainline", or two, has essentially zero effect on junction size.
14:04<Pinkbeast>Do that in the middle of an OTTD junction and it adds a significant amount to junction size.
14:05<ksf>you have to bulid those lanes one way or the other.
14:06<Samu>question, when starting a new company, could the color chosen be more random than it is?
14:06<Pinkbeast>No, you don't! The whole point is that join before split demands extra capacity in the junction.
14:06<Samu>it's not random enough :p
14:07<ksf>if the intersection would join the cars coming from the lower left, driving upwards, early, then it'd have to have a separate lane for them. at the exact same place, just separate.
14:07<ksf>the intersection is, to 99%, split before join when you make those dotted lines solid.
14:08<ksf>...the only thing where things, yes, cross, are the reversing cases.
14:08<Pinkbeast>I think I am now sated with the thick field of incomprehension. Bye.
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14:21<Samu>i have another little suggestion: when the game is paused, could the ***PAUSED*** text located at the news tooltip blink?
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>that would be terrible
14:22<Samu>:(
14:22-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d00880a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
14:23<Samu>sometimes my parents call for help with the game, only to find out the train wasn't starting because the game was paused
14:23<Samu>spending half an hour investigating why it wouldn't start, turns out it's paused, :(
14:24<Samu>me included
14:24<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Why would that be terrible?
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>i hate blinking stuff that distracts me from what i'm actually doing
14:27<blathijs>Oh, I misread the request
14:28<blathijs>I thought it was "Put ***PAUSED*** in news area", but it's already there
14:28<blathijs>Blinking is probably not so cool, then :-)
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14:30<Samu>if not blinking, then something visually obvious to catch attention
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14:32<alluke>openttdcoop welcome server is the first good openttdcoop serverive found
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>every time you make something idiot-proof, someone invents a better idiot
14:32<alluke>only the grfs suck
14:33<Samu>im not hosting any game today alluke
14:33<Samu>i'm testing AIs
14:33<alluke>huh?
14:33<alluke>i didnt even ask you to do so
14:34<Samu>ok
14:34<V453000>right lets ask why do the newgrfs suck alluke :)
14:35<alluke>well not all
14:35<alluke>but id swap some
14:36<V453000>not to mention that they change there with every game, so your statement is quite fragile
14:36<frosch123>"SetSet" <- awesome function name :)
14:36<alluke>like dutch station set to dutch addition set
14:38<V453000>sometimes they are there yes
14:38<V453000>I dont think a station set is terribly vital to a newGRF setup though
14:40<alluke>its just eyecandy
14:42<V453000>exactly
14:43<V453000>therefore I am still waiting for a reason why the newGRF setup sucks :)
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14:44<alluke>it doesnt really suck
14:45<alluke>but id add more trainsets
14:45<alluke>variety is fun
14:45<V453000>I dont think the current train set there has anything missing
14:46<V453000>multiple train sets are an option with bad train sets which have holes
14:46<V453000>like ukrs2, nars2, tropic refurbishment set, somewhat japanese train set
14:46<alluke>i didnt mean mixed sets
14:47<alluke>but you could have one complete train from db set and another one from fts
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14:47<V453000>what?
14:48<alluke>forget
14:49<V453000>no, wtf did you mean by that
14:49<V453000>one complete train from 2 sets
14:49<V453000>without mixing two sets in one game
14:49<alluke>no
14:49<alluke>the exact opposite
14:50<alluke>complete train from one set
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14:50<V453000>what is a complete train?
14:50<alluke>loco and coaches from same set
14:50<frosch123>V453000: wheels and an engine?
14:51-!-alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
14:51<V453000>right, every train set has that
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14:51<V453000>so why do you suggest to add more train sets
14:51<alluke>ppås
14:51<alluke>oops
14:51<alluke>more to choose
14:52<V453000>one of them is usually better to choose
14:52<V453000>so not really
14:53<V453000>and/or they have different speeds etc, so you in the end use only one of them anyway
14:53<alluke>some sets have better passenger stuff and some have better freight stuff
14:53<V453000>which part is NUTS missing
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14:54<alluke>i dont know
14:54<alluke>im talking about the current welcome server game
14:54<alluke>i never use nuts anyway
14:55<V453000>and in the current welcome server game is nuts afaik
14:55<alluke>nope
14:55<alluke>theres temperate game with polish set
14:55<V453000>oh, new game
14:55<V453000>oh fucking christ
14:55<alluke>the previous toyland was rubbish
14:55<alluke>purple company is mine :P
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15:02<Samu>the best AI for today's testing is currently: WrightAI
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15:03<Samu>PathZilla vs WrightAI vs Rythorn Airline AI - each one soloing
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15:23<Samu>i'm bored of life, listening to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4SiuPvd4Mw
15:25<V453000>good that will kill you soon
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15:50<Samu>hmm :9
15:59<frosch123>who keeps emptying my coffee mug?
16:00<@Rubidium>frosch123: it's not me
16:09*Alberth is drinking tea currently
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>must be snow white
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>"wer hat aus meinem Becherchen getrunken"?
16:11<@Rubidium>oh... *that* snow white
16:11<V453000>methanol?
16:18-!-sla_ro|master [slamaster@89.137.75.224] has quit []
16:22<Samu>here's something I did with trains, i was very bored that day
16:22<Samu>https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=23b29f3de45f6f1f#cid=23B29F3DE45F6F1F&id=23B29F3DE45F6F1F%21473
16:23<Samu>https://rupavq.dm1.livefilestore.com/y2pqVucGiVHyACa2t7ymf43H6P388flewPDWBPH11zIqN6_fqm0EO61XCLYPaykvpL-u3d5pwk_A2RNYtbJ93HbdLoegTnNCIff2rvjIhUpdF4/Unnamed%2C%202068-11-22.png?psid=1
16:23<Samu>sorry, 2nd link
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i should just ban all microsoft sites, they never load
16:24<alluke>whats that?
16:24<alluke>huge mess
16:24<Samu>it works, until I found out I could only put 15 trains there
16:25<Samu>decided to investigate and came up with all those signs
16:25<Samu>:(
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16:25<perk11>why do you use two-way tracks?
16:26<perk11>3 tracks one way and 3 tracks other way would work with any amount of trains
16:26<perk11>untill all th tracks are full
16:27<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/more_efficient.png (the three steel trains)
16:27<@Rubidium>you get pretty creative when there are AIs around making messy "obstacles"
16:30<+glx>too much invisible stuff
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16:30<frosch123>i assume the steel trains are from the ai :)
16:31<@Rubidium>nope, they're mine
16:31<alluke>lol do you call that a steel train
16:31<V453000>XD
16:31<alluke>this is one
16:31<alluke>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/stalin.png
16:32<alluke>carries 638 tons
16:32<@Rubidium>alluke: it carries 404 at most
16:32<alluke>nope
16:32<V453000>more or less
16:32<perk11>:D
16:32<alluke>wow
16:32<alluke>404 indeed
16:33<alluke>looks like its still syncing
16:33<@Rubidium>longer trains don't work, since the lower station is at maximum length
16:33<alluke>either db or my inter net is fucked up
16:34<@Rubidium>and the three trains are timed in such a manner that they do not interfere with eachother, but that needs the third track
16:34<alluke>that train is 7 tiles
16:35<frosch123>hmm, the stations signs should have given me a hint earlier :s
16:35<alluke>now
16:35<alluke>the link works
16:35<alluke>take a look
16:36<V453000>wow you managed to construct a train with higher capacity
16:36<perk11>alluke: and why is it called "Stalin"?
16:36<V453000>teach us
16:36<frosch123>lol what?
16:36<alluke>because it means steel
16:36<frosch123>i expected a rl photo...
16:36<perk11>it means Stalin
16:36<alluke>stalin = steel
16:36<alluke>in russian
16:36<perk11>and there was a train called Iosif Stalin
16:37<frosch123>is the joke that the train is very old, so it is scrap metal by itself?
16:38<frosch123>yeah, old trains carrying steel can almost achieve 100% payload
16:38<alluke>and dont require unloading
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16:38<frosch123>you can drive the whole train directly into the furnace
16:39<frosch123>maybe some wagons could also be loaded with coal
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16:39<alluke>super efficient
16:39<alluke>the driver just needs to jump out
16:40<perk11>alluke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_locomotive_class_IS this trains was called after Stalin, and it doesn't mean steel in Russian
16:41<perk11>so when I saw the link I thought you have it in openttd :)
16:41<alluke>right
16:41<alluke>google translate says that stal means steel
16:42<alluke>i guess stalin means made of steel
16:42<perk11>no it doesn't mean anything, except the name
16:42<perk11>Google Translate is pretty bad with russian translation
16:43<perk11>the word for steel is stal :)
16:43<alluke>yes
16:48<frosch123>night
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17:45<alluke>why the fuck is itunes 390 mb?????
17:45<alluke>its just a music player
17:46<+glx>no it's a store too
17:46<alluke>ok its not 390 mb xD
17:46<alluke>that included security update
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18:04<Samu>buff amd or they go rip
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18:14<Eddi|zuHause>who the what now?
18:16<V453000>yes
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21:49<michael_>Hello?
21:50<michael_>I can't seem to buy train engines in OpenTTD, however I can buy train carrages and I don't know why.
21:50<Eddi|zuHause>what year are you in?
21:51<michael_>uh, 10,010 XD
21:52<Eddi|zuHause>did you try changing railtypes? click and hold the rail icon in the main toolbar
21:53<michael_>It's set for railroad
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21:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but there are apparently no conventional rail vehilces left, so try maglev instead
21:54<michael_>Meaning I have to completely rebuild my railroad?
21:54<michael_>Crap
21:55<michael_>is there an easy way to replace rails?
21:55<Eddi|zuHause>you can use the convert tool
21:55<Eddi|zuHause>it's on the right of the toolbar
21:56<Eddi|zuHause>just drag and drop this over your rails
21:56<Eddi|zuHause>and it will convert everything to the new railtype
21:56<Eddi|zuHause>(unless it has a train on it that can't drive on the new railtype)
21:58<michael_>okay, thanks
22:01<michael_>can Maize be carried in a grain hopper?
22:02<michael_>nvm
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 07 00:00:54 2013