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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-07-02

---Logopened Tue Jul 02 00:00:47 2013
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04:50<dihedral>good morning
05:06<dihedral>that's what i have in my server room :-P - nah - just kidding
05:06<Xaroth|Work>mornin dih
05:10<NGC3982>dihedral: Speaking of, i really need to clean my OpenTTD server.
05:11<NGC3982>It accumulates so much dust, you wouldn't believe. And the average temperature rises one or two celcius every fortnight.
05:11<Xaroth|Work>could use a good hoovering
05:13<dihedral>what would you expect with that fan? :-P
05:15<Xaroth|Work>you'd almost think it'd lift off.
05:34<dihedral>that's what i think when the netapp in the server room boots :-P
05:35<Xaroth|Work>i've had the displeasure of having to stand next to a few blades during a power cycle
05:35<Xaroth|Work>i was glad I had earplugs in
05:35<Xaroth|Work>I was not so glad that those earplugs didn't really help that much
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05:36<dihedral>be glad they did not suck you in :-P
05:38<Xaroth|Work>I was at the hot end
05:38<Xaroth|Work>so more like blown out of the window
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07:30<MNIM>I would like to notify people that is not responding
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07:33*MNIM pokes Supercheese
07:37<Xaroth|Work>MNIM: works here on one system (home), not at the other(work)
07:38<Xaroth|Work>so I'd suspect peering issues
07:38<MNIM>hmmmhm :?
07:39<Xaroth|Work>peering issues
07:40*MNIM peers at openttd
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09:32<__ln__>does anyone have anything against Cologne? (also known as Köln)
09:33<Sacro>So the new russian patchpack has removed the COPYING text file
09:33<Sacro>GPL violation much?
09:33<__ln__>you should write to the free software foundation.
09:33<Sacro>I shall
09:33<Sacro>CC Hans Zimmerman
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>or you could try to teach russians about copyright
09:41<@planetmaker>simpler would be to teach people about using 'make bundle'
09:41<@planetmaker>but not as ... efficient
09:42<__ln__>is this Quer-durchs-Land-Ticket something new?
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>not particularly...
09:43<@planetmaker>__ln__, cologne is the city for the queer and gay ;-)
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>"Das Quer-durchs-Land-Ticket war zunächst während einer Pilotphase vom 1. August 2009 bis zum 31. Januar 2010 erhältlich. Seit dem 13. Dezember 2010 bietet es die Deutsche Bahn mit veränderten Konditionen wieder an."
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>so it's "new" if you haven't travelled by train in the last 5 years :)
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>the similar "schönes-wochenende-ticket" is even older
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>but only valid on weekends (saturday or sunday)
09:46<__ln__>yeah, that one i was aware of already.
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>particularly cheap way to travel if you're in a group and have a lot of time
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>(because you can't use long-distance-trains which usually provide the fast connections)
09:50<__ln__>i've used länder-tickets in a group for that purpose a few times
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10:31<MNIM>time to look for some inspiration for a junction
10:31<MNIM> isn't responding to me either
10:34<Xaroth|Work>as I said before
10:34<Xaroth|Work>I suspect peering issues
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12:23<frosch123>hola terkhen :)
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12:59<@planetmaker>good evening
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13:03<@Terkhen>hi planetmaker and frosch123
13:08<adit>good evening :)
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13:12<frosch123>all the kids are coming home from school
13:15<Rubidium>hi daddy ;)
13:16<frosch123>i can't be kid? :(
13:16<Rubidium>isn't by definition everyone a child?
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>depends on your definitions of "everyone" and "child", probably
13:17*Rubidium thinks of DAGs
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what that is
13:18<frosch123>watch "git for 4 years and up"
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25552 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-07-02 17:45:30 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 39 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<@DorpsGek>slovak - 19 changes by Milsa
13:45<@DorpsGek>swedish - 1 changes by Joel_A
13:45<@DorpsGek>thai - 3 changes by nirakanz
13:45<@DorpsGek>turkish - 4 changes by emremeydan
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14:15<@planetmaker>hallo Alberth
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14:57<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25553 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-07-02 18:57:26 UTC)
14:57<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5530]: provide a warning when no vehicles are available, and tell what to do in that case
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15:09<Milaga>I am not sure I understand the ECS industries. All of my industries have petered out in 10 years. I have trains that don't turn a profit anymore.
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15:12<Pinkbeast>Milaga: ECS primary extraction industries do gradually taper away to nothing, yes.
15:12<@planetmaker>ecs industries are... harder to master. did you read the wiki on ecs industries?
15:12<@planetmaker>and ^^ what pinkbeast says
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15:13<Pinkbeast>Also you've got the stockpiles to contend with which are a terrible fit with OTTD's dispatch model
15:14<@planetmaker>does it get better with cargodist enabled?
15:14<Nat_aS>Everything is better with cargodist
15:14<fonsinchen>I heard Cargodist and stock piles don't like each other.
15:15<@planetmaker>making money is not better with cargodist
15:15<fonsinchen>Because stations randomly start and stop accepting and producing stuff.
15:17<Pinkbeast>But stockpiles and cargod*st work well together in Simutrans if they could just stop the dispatching industry gobbing up goods at such tremendous speed.
15:21<zooks>fonsinchen, yes, cargodist deletes links when stockpiles cause the station to stop accepting so cargo will get lost all the time in waiting
15:21<zooks>I now turn of stockpiles in my games with ECS
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16:03<__ln__>"Für nur 1,00 EUR mehr werden Ihre Fahrten mit dem Fernverkehr der Deutschen Bahn zu 100% aus erneuerbaren Energien durchgeführt."
16:04<frosch123>try to catch a diesel train, and sue them
16:07<__ln__>also makes one wonder, if the introduction of 100% renewable energy on railways is only a matter of 1€ per passenger, why not include that in everyone's ticket and happily drive with renewables ever after.
16:07<@planetmaker>frosch123, "Fernverkehr". I don't think they have diesel engines
16:08<Rubidium>the ICE to Denmark?
16:08<__ln__>they do, to/from copenhagen!
16:08<@planetmaker>hm. Good point
16:09<__ln__>but admittedly they may claim it's not a DB train, because it says "DSB" on the train walls.
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16:10<MNIM>ICE actually has a diesel version :P
16:10<Rubidium>alternatively... the ICE/IC going to Amsterdam. Are those classified as "Fernverkehr"?
16:10<__ln__>MNIM: it does
16:10<@planetmaker>maybe they run there plant diesel
16:12<MNIM>Oh, right
16:12<MNIM>denmark's IC4 is also built by AnsaldoBreda
16:13<frosch123>planetmaker: aren't there some ic routes with br218?
16:13<MNIM>when will people ever realize that the only thing italian tech is good for is target practice?
16:14<Rubidium>MNIM: but doesn't it always miss their target?
16:14<Rubidium>like the break target
16:16<@Alberth>practice makes perfect :p
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16:23<Milaga>Yeah, I read the wiki ... I think the problem is this scenario. All the industries started at 3% or so. Is that bad?
16:24<frosch123>[22:09] <__ln__> but admittedly they may claim it's not a DB train, because it says "DSB" on the train walls <- if 30% of the energy is renewable anyway, why not sell 30% of tickets for 1 € more?
16:24<Milaga>And it doesn't really make sense that renewable resources, like farms, taper off. Seasonal fluxuations are one thing I like, but my whole beer industry has just collapsed!
16:25<Milaga>And yeah, I turned off stockpiles too. Right away I could tell that would be bad, considering how complicated industries are.
16:25<frosch123>[22:07] <__ln__> also makes one wonder, if the introduction of 100% renewable energy on railways is only a matter of 1€ per passenger, why not include that in everyone's ticket and happily drive with renewables ever after. <- actually i wanted to quote that line :p
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16:34<@planetmaker>Milaga, the seasonal change is what really buggers me there, too. Maybe it can be changed via parameters, dunno. Or you might want to give another industry set a try in your next game, e.g. FIRS
16:35<__ln__>is there something interesting in Bonn?
16:35<@planetmaker>__ln__, yes, the "Haus der Geschichte" is IMHO a very interesting museum
16:36<@planetmaker>one of the best I've seen really
16:36<__ln__>hmm, perhaps i should add Bonn to my schedule.
16:36<@planetmaker>besides it's a nice town...
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16:37<@planetmaker>the Schloss, which is part of the university is also a nice thing to see... with a nice garden
16:37<@planetmaker>or park rather
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16:40<@planetmaker>__ln__, what's your rough idea of your trip?
16:41<@planetmaker>and what's the type of things you want to do / see in general?
16:43<__ln__>the post-braunschweigian idea of my trip is to take a train to köln, stay for 2 nights and see köln and its surroundings, then maybe visit wuppertal and return to hannover airport for one night until flight back home.
16:43<@planetmaker>and what stuff do you enjoy doing?
16:44<@planetmaker>or seeing? what interests you?
16:44<@planetmaker>just sights? Or more like history? Or ... arts? Or churches? Or ... whatever :-)
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16:45<__ln__>well i like seeing places and things with historical significance. or just otherwise interesting places.
16:45<__ln__>not churches nor arts primarily. :)
16:45<@planetmaker>have you visited Leipzig before?
16:46<@planetmaker>biggest terminus station. Völkerschlachtdenkmal. And... well :-)
16:46<__ln__>yes, i have. and its stasi museum.
16:46<@planetmaker>ok :-)
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16:47<__ln__>i've also visited the camping area of the city of köln, and seen the cathedral from the distance of several kilometers..
16:47<@planetmaker>a nice original town, with many half-timbered houses, oldest barock theatre in Northern Germany is Celle
16:48<@planetmaker>used to be one of the residence towns of the Hanovres, aka Windsor
16:48<@planetmaker>(and that's why it hasn't been bombed, or so is rumoured)
16:49<__ln__>probably i should also visit wuppertal on my way back, to re-experience the schwebebahn.
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16:57<@planetmaker>__ln__, there's many nice small "towns" also along the Rhine. If you are in Bonn, you can even go on a short trip via boat to some.
16:59<MNIM>Ewww, the rhine.
16:59<MNIM>in the netherlands we call that 'the sewer'
17:00<@planetmaker>yes... Germany prepares it well. Or maybe Sandoz?
17:00<__ln__>hmm, boat trip, not a bad idea
17:01<MNIM>Not sure, but it seems anything that doesn't originate in our own country seems to have that quality.
17:02<MNIM>Hell, in Antwerpen they still throw the sewage straight into the Schelde sometimes.
17:04<__ln__>well, Antwerpen is in belgium, so..
17:05<__ln__>would a dutch person care to explain the reason for the Baarle-Nassau mess?
17:06<MNIM>Which mess specifically?
17:06<MNIM>but yeah, __ln__, that was the point :P
17:06<MNIM>in the netherlands that would probably have caused the fall of another government, at the very least
17:06<MNIM>in belgium? "meh."
17:06<__ln__>the mess that there are tinytiny territories of belgium within netherlands
17:07<MNIM>oooh, right
17:07<MNIM>it gets better
17:07<__ln__>and even territories of netherlands within territories of belgium within netherlands
17:07<MNIM>I'm not sure, really.
17:07<MNIM>never dug too deeply into that
17:08<MNIM>easiest explanation I can immediately give you is "Eh, belgium"
17:08<MNIM>(Note, I use that explanation a lot)
17:08<__ln__>having visited belgium myself, i understand that explanation
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17:12<__ln__>if you just conquered those territories, they wouldn't mind, would they?
17:12<Xaroth|Work>the easiest explanation a dutchie would give would be "het zijn belgen"
17:12<MNIM>Xaroth: so yeah, that is exactly what I did XD
17:13<Xaroth|Work>and belgium and the netherlands used to be one country
17:13<Xaroth|Work>during the seperation things got a bit messed up
17:13<MNIM>you don't need to tell me that >.>
17:13<MNIM>It created belgium
17:14<MNIM>which is the very definition of 'messed up' ;P
17:14<MNIM>Well, what wikipedia tells me on a quick view is that as a result of lots of land-swapping between the dukes of Brabant and Breda as a result of powerplays between the Duke of Brabant and the duke of Holland in the middle ages
17:15<__ln__>there's a belgian territory in the middle of a big field. can i declare that one independent and appoint myself as the king?
17:16<@planetmaker>__ln__, sure you can. The question is: will anyone mind?
17:16<Xaroth|Work>the question would be, would belgium be the best place to create an independant nation?
17:17<Xaroth|Work>I mean
17:17<MNIM>and the odd borders that caused remained through the ages in the end to be confirmed by the 1843 treaty of Maastricht which established the borders between the Netherlands and Belgium after the English forced the dutch to back down
17:17<MNIM>So yeah, I'm looking at YOU, england! goddamn meddlers.
17:17<Xaroth|Work>like the dutch never meddled in anything
17:18<MNIM>I swear, England was the USA avant le lettre in terms of meddling with other countries
17:18<Rubidium>they were merely annoying the Netherlands because they were at war at that time
17:18<MNIM>Xaroth: big difference - we only meddle in things we have an economic interest in
17:18<MNIM>we are, after all, the dutch
17:18<Xaroth|Work>you mean we only meddle in things we think we can get a profit out of
17:19*__ln__ is now the king of living in exile
17:19<Xaroth|Work>you konw
17:19<Xaroth|Work>if you fail to paste that h at the end
17:19<Xaroth|Work>you end up in the US
17:21<Xaroth|Work>also, __ln__:
17:21<MNIM>But yeah
17:21<MNIM>I still think we should just nuke the UK of the face of the earth for the 1839 mess.
17:22<+michi_cc>__ln__: Depending on how historical it should be, Xanten might also be an option to visit.
17:22<@planetmaker>no thanks. The fallout would go straight here
17:23<@planetmaker>hm... that reminds me, michi_cc :-) Goslar, the old Kaiserpfalz
17:23<@planetmaker>^ __ln__
17:23<MNIM>planetmaker: you forget we would be in the way, too
17:23<MNIM>but it would be worth it
17:23<MNIM>I swear, that little piece of shit still causes problems.
17:24<Xaroth|Work>__ln__: if you ever get close to amsterdam, try the Amsterdam Dungeon .. fun short thing to do between coffeeshop-hopping and ogling the red light district
17:24<MNIM>besides the fact that it essentially caused the escalation of WW1 (and didn't help at all with WW2)
17:25<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: depends on the bombs used tbh
17:25<@planetmaker> @ __ln__
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17:26<__ln__>Xaroth|Work: i've actually been to amsterdam, but we chose to go to madame tussaud's instead :)
17:26<__ln__>Xaroth|Work: and that was an informative video, i'll bookmark it
17:26<Xaroth|Work>practically next to eachother, that and the dungeon :P
17:26<MNIM>it still forces us to keep the Schelde open to the point of destroying Dutch land, it forces us to maintain a railway between Antwerp and the Ruhr industrial area
17:26<Xaroth|Work>dungeon is more fun though
17:26<Xaroth|Work>it has a rollercoaster...
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17:27<MNIM>Though, admittedly, it did keep us out of WW1, I suppose
17:28<__ln__>michi_cc: i'll write that one down too
17:28<MNIM>then again, with belgium attached we probably would have been powerful enough to force the germans to reconsider twice :P
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17:29<Xaroth|Work>MNIM: they are partially french, I'd not expect -that- much from it..
17:29<MNIM>Xaroth: mainly caused by the fucking fact that we had to retreat from it...
17:30<MNIM>belgium was much less francophone than it is now
17:30<Rubidium>a railway between Antwerp and the Ruhr area?
17:30<Rubidium>you mean that piece of nature?
17:30<MNIM>the Iron Rhine.
17:30<MNIM>Rubidium: No, the industries
17:33<Rubidium>I meant the piece of nature between Budel and Vlodrop
17:34<MNIM>ehh. I meant the german area.
17:34<MNIM>that's why I used the german spelling :P
17:35<Rubidium>the Iron Rhine is dead
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17:35<Rubidium>or at least the part in the Netherlands
17:35<@planetmaker>good night
17:36<Rubidium>Belgium has to make a decision, but they haven't, so none of the important studies have even been started
17:36<MNIM>good :D
17:37*Rubidium ponders looking up whether that track exists even in their model, and if it does: "is it classified as 'oud ijzer'"?
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>when does belgium ever do decisions?
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>isn't it like every real decision would blow up the government coalition?
17:38<MNIM>pretty much
17:38<MNIM>(then again, the dutch aren't much better at that point)
17:39<MNIM>though it should be mentioned that that at least wouldn't start a civil war over here
17:43<Rubidium>looks like Roermond - Vlodrop is still in the model and not as 'oud ijzer'
17:44<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> planetmaker: aren't there some ic routes with br218? <-- to westerland/sylt, but that might not be DB Fernverkehr but DB AutoZug instead. and they ordered new diesel engines which they want to reopen Erfurt-Jena-Gera(-Chemnitz?) as IC line, when the doubledecker wagons are delivered (electrifying that line is apparently delayed due to funding problems)
17:45<Rubidium>... which 1 EUR per ticket will solve
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17:45<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's more complicated than that :p
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>because rail infrastructure projects like that must be funded by the federal government
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>which is generally short of funds
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17:51<Rubidium>apparantly that br218 also runs near kiel (-> flensburg/luebeck/puttgarden)
17:52<Rubidium>or isn't that far enough for 'fern'?
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>if the train is white with a red line, it's Fernverkehr
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>(most likely)
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>BR 218 are somewhat distributed between the branches of DB
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>(there are also the similar BR 215, 216 and 225. and possibly some others, with minor or major differences)
17:54<Rubidium>the train planner doesn't seem to tell what's DB Fernverkehr
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>if it's IC or ICE, it's Fernverkehr, if it's RB or RE, it's "Regio"
17:55<Rubidium>it's IC, but it's also in the NLs
17:56<Rubidium>and they change the loc
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, if you want to power a diesel train with "renewable engery", all you need is 100% "biofuel"
17:58<Rubidium>but here the track owner buys the electricity, and they don't do green... so IC Berlin isn't running on renewable energy here
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>that's more of a marketing gag anyway. there's a % of renewable energy in the "energy mix", and as long as not more % are buying the "green" ticket, nothing changes
18:01<Rubidium>it's not that simple
18:01<Rubidium>each train that has a passenger with a "green" ticket must be 100% green
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that is the definition they use :p
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't think they publish any statistics anyway
18:04<Rubidium>"All business travellers registered for the bahn.corporate program will also travel CO2-free on long-distance Deutsche Bahn trains"
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>plus, the cargo and local trains aren't affected, so they can get more "unrenewable" energy
18:06<Rubidium>"By purchasing electricity directly from renewable sources, DB is preventing any CO2 emissions at all for these long-distance journeys." <- also probably a lie
18:06<Rubidium>at least for bio diesel
18:07<Rubidium>and I doubt wind and solar are enough, so there'll probably be some bio mass stuff as well
18:07<Rubidium>(not to mention the staff)
18:07<Rubidium>don't think there's that much hydro in Germany
18:08<Supercheese>I recall the English specifically going after dams in Germany with their crazy bouncing bombs
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18:09<Rubidium>in 2009: hydro and wind was a whopping combined 1.5%
18:09<Rubidium>hydro at ~0.5%
18:10<@Terkhen>good night
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>you have to be careful reading these statistics. there's a difference between total energy mix and electric energy mix, and there is a difference between base power level and peak power level
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>water and wind have a much larger fraction of the peak power level, but almost nothing of the base power level
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18:25<Nat_aS>if you listen to wind and solar fanboys, they always produce peak power, and any obsticles standing in the way will be engineered around sooner or later
18:25<Nat_aS>but any problems with nuclear power are apparently inherent in the system and unacceptable.
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18:26<Nat_aS>when oil and coal gets subsides that's bad, but when wind or solar get subsidies it's good
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>so. these are 3 totally unrelated (and unfounded) statements
18:30<Xaroth|Work>I have no issues with the concept of nuclear power
18:30<Xaroth|Work>just.. the implementation of it
18:30<Xaroth|Work>I'd rather prefer a LTFR :|
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: the point is, when a wind plant explodes, you don't have a 200km zone around it which can't be productively used for the next 100-10000 years
18:31<Nat_aS>well yeah, but the anti-nuke people don't give a shit and are against anything nuclear.
18:31<Xaroth|Work>er, LFTR, even
18:31<Xaroth|Work>I can't spell
18:32<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: neither would you with a LFTR ...
18:32<Nat_aS>Eddi|zuHause: when a hydro plant operates as intended, you have an even bigger km zone unusable
18:32<Nat_aS>also, nobody seems to throw as much of a shit when oil or coal plants contaminate just as much land
18:32<Nat_aS>because it's good old fashioned normal polution
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>i've not seen a 200km radius hydro plant
18:32<Nat_aS>instead of magic invisible death
18:33<Nat_aS>I've not seen a 200km radius meltdown
18:33<Nat_aS>Fukashima and 3 mile island both have failed to cause any measurable deaths
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>plus, there are fish and stuff in the hydro plant
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18:33<Nat_aS>also, fukashima will be safe for human habitation in 2017
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>deaths are besides the point
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's an economical disaster
18:33<Nat_aS>wildlife is also flourishing in chernobyl
18:34<Nat_aS>because the presence of humans is worse than radiation
18:34<Nat_aS>Deepwarter horizon is an ecological disaster
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it is
18:34<Nat_aS>Chernobyl is a political one
18:34<Nat_aS>the ecosystem doesn't care about the elevated levels of radiation in chernobyl.
18:35<Nat_aS>there are places on earth that have more radation.
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>sure, it doesn
18:35<Xaroth|Work>point remains that reactors, as they have been built so far, are not really efficient
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>'t matter on an earth-wide scale
18:35<Xaroth|Work>you spend more space on keeping everything in line, than you are producing energy
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>but that doesn't mean it won't have an impact.
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>also "blowing up" is not the only reason why nuclear power is impractical
18:36<Nat_aS>Xaroth|Work: but somehow more energy is produced than any other source of power
18:36<Xaroth|Work>Nat_aS: not really
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>you also have this waste which has to be kept away from people for the next few milennia
18:36<Nat_aS>the energy density for the "inefficient" nuclear plants is still the highest
18:36<Xaroth|Work>a LFTR reactor is much more efficient power wise
18:36<Nat_aS>the waste can be recycled
18:37<Nat_aS>and to be honest
18:37<Xaroth|Work>the waste can not be recycled
18:37<Nat_aS>we won't GET LFTRs unless we invest in neuclear power in general
18:37<Xaroth|Work>it's extremely toxic for hundreds of years
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>the "recycled" waste turns out to be even more dangerous
18:37<Xaroth|Work>we won't get LFTRs if we -do- invest in nuclear power
18:37<Xaroth|Work>because there's quite a monopoly on uranium reactors
18:37<Xaroth|Work>and they want to keep it that way
18:37<Xaroth|Work>except for the chinese
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>and what's this LFTR you're talking about?
18:38<Xaroth|Work>basically same concept, only different materials used
18:38<Xaroth|Work>safer, more stable
18:38<Xaroth|Work>very little waste
18:38<Xaroth|Work>(thorium is a few million times more common than uranium)
18:39<Nat_aS>I don't think the uranium reactor lobby is nearly as powerful as you think it is.
18:39<Nat_aS>it's the millions of people who are irratonaly afraid of any kind of reactor
18:39<Nat_aS>no matter how safe
18:39<Nat_aS>that keep LFTR from getting any attention
18:39<Xaroth|Work>people don't matter
18:39<Xaroth|Work>media matters
18:39<Nat_aS>Only old plants melt down,so we should build new ones to replace them
18:39<Nat_aS>but you know why we don't get any new ones
18:39<Xaroth|Work>lobbyists with money can easily twist and turn what the media sais
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth|Work: i don't really see anything that makes it obviously "safer" (in the sense that when it blows up, it won't produce a 200km uninhabitable zone)
18:40<Nat_aS>because people protest new plants
18:40<Nat_aS>Eddi|zuHause: it WON'T blow up
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see that either
18:40<Nat_aS>it is physicaly imposible
18:40<Nat_aS>an explosion would be defying the laws of physics
18:41<Nat_aS>everything in an LFTR operates are atmospheric pressure.
18:41<Nat_aS>it lacks the features of Heavy water reactors that make them prone to explosions
18:41<Nat_aS>which actualy have NOTHING to do with the radation by the way
18:41<Xaroth|Work>it's easily capable to make a mechanical form of a dumpvalve for it
18:41<Nat_aS>it's the fact that they use hot steam
18:41<Xaroth|Work>ie. if it goes critical for whatever reason
18:42<Xaroth|Work>it will not be dependant of a computer operated system to defuse itself
18:42<Xaroth|Work>iirc that vid shows how
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>EVERY nuclear reactor is CRITICAL. that is the "normal" mode of operation
18:43<Xaroth|Work>critical in operating standards
18:43<Supercheese>critical ≠ supercritical
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>critical = state of sustained chain reaction
18:44<Xaroth|Work>which is nominal operating standards
18:45<Nat_aS>anyways, LFTR is nothing special, there are tons of safe reactor designs, the main problem is you would need the public be willing to allow the construction of new plants
18:45<Nat_aS>which they aren't
18:45<Xaroth|Work>that's because there's a stigma
18:45<Nat_aS>yet at the same time they demand tons of energy to just come out of nowhere
18:45<Xaroth|Work>nuclear != safe
18:45<Xaroth|Work>nuclear == dangerous
18:45<Nat_aS>so in the end they chose fracking
18:45<+glx>Xaroth: fusion is safer ;)
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>besides, one of the major problems in fukushima was not the stopping of the chain reaction, but that the remaining radioactive fuel is still producing heat which has to be removed
18:46<Nat_aS>the future of america's power seems to be a mixture of renewables and gas
18:46<Nat_aS>glx: fusion has allways been 50 years away
18:46<Nat_aS>because nobody has invested enough money in it
18:46<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: yes
18:46<Xaroth|Work>you need power to keep a nuclear reactor safe
18:46<Xaroth|Work>a LFTR reactor does not
18:46<Nat_aS>there are passively safe reactors
18:46<Nat_aS>which just shut down when they lose external power
18:47<+glx>cooling is rarely passive
18:47<Xaroth|Work>those are all built on electronic systems that keep that in line
18:47<Xaroth|Work>problem with those are
18:47<Xaroth|Work>they tend to crash
18:47<Xaroth|Work>or go apeshit
18:47<Xaroth|Work>that's why you want a mechanical way of safety
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth|Work: again, i see nothing of that sort
18:47<Nat_aS>as in if nothing happens to it
18:47<Nat_aS>it will shut down
18:47<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: have you seen the vid i linked last?
18:47<Nat_aS>no electronics
18:47<+glx>Nat_aS: fukushima reactor properly shut down
18:47<Xaroth|Work>they show it
18:48<Nat_aS>it needs an active effort to maintain things
18:48<Xaroth|Work>frozen salt plug, kept frozen under normal circumstances
18:48<+glx>but cooling system was broken
18:48<Xaroth|Work>if shit goes bad
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see vids
18:48<Nat_aS>glx: the fukshima reactor was over 40 years old
18:48<Xaroth|Work>it can't be kept frozen anymore
18:48<Nat_aS>and no, it lost desil power
18:48<Xaroth|Work>as such, plug fails, which results in the thorium flowing to a tank for safety
18:48<Nat_aS>new reactors do not need external power
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth|Work: so and how do you keep the tank cool?
18:49<Xaroth|Work>you don't have to
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>you do. spent fuel has to be actively cooled for at least 5 years
18:50<Xaroth|Work>spent what fuel?
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>making the fuel liquid doesn't magically solve that
18:50<Xaroth|Work>the L in LFTR stands for liquid
18:50<Xaroth|Work>it doesn't need to be a certain temperature to be liquid
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>no, but it has to be certain temperature to NOT BLOW UP
18:51<+glx>Xaroth: too much heat may vaporise
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>(as in chemically explode)
18:52<Nat_aS>the fuel won't even reach a temperature to boil.
18:52<Nat_aS>that would be violating the laws of physics
18:53<Nat_aS>another thing anti-nuke people do is pretend anything neuclear is actively malicious and bending the laws of physics just to cause mayhem
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>the fuel is meant to run a steam turbine. of course it produces heat...
18:53<Xaroth|Work>it runs at 700C
18:53<Xaroth|Work>it won't boil until it goes well above double that
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>it runs at 700°C WHILE HEAT IS ACTIVELY TAKEN OUT
18:54<Nat_aS>just because it produces heat does not mean it will reach a temprature hot enough to boil
18:54<Nat_aS>melting and boiling points are pretty much set in stone
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it does. if you don't dissipate the heat, it will build up
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>you can stop the chain reaction, but you cannot stop the random fission, so even if the plant is shut down, it will continue to produce heat
18:56<alluke>sending farming supplies ~1000 tiles away on hovercrafts
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>STOP WITH THE ON-TOPIC!!
18:58<Nat_aS>the random fusion will not produce nearly as much heat
18:58<Nat_aS>fission rather
18:59<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: the thermal energy generated in such a situation can easily be dispersed by a passive cooling system
19:00<Xaroth|Work>i.e. dump the dump-tank into a large quantity of water
19:00<Nat_aS>I'm looking forward to seeing germany buy neuclear power from france
19:00<Xaroth|Work>as it runs on such a high temperature on normal operation
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth|Work: again, i have seen nothing that would suggest this
19:00<Xaroth|Work>simple physics
19:01<Xaroth|Work>the system would have to generate more thermal energy, than is dissipated by the surface due to newton's law of cooling
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>please tell me how "liquid" fuel suddenly produces less thermal energy than "solid" fuel, which has to be actively cooled for 5 years
19:02<Xaroth|Work>you're missing the point
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i am
19:02<Xaroth|Work>it won't go critical until it reaches 1400C +
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>because you're not making one
19:02<Xaroth|Work>it operates at 700C
19:02<Xaroth|Work>that means it has to generate sufficient thermal energy to go from 700C to 1400C
19:02<Xaroth|Work>while counteracting heat decay
19:02<Nat_aS>Eddi|zuHause: you are doing nothing but making yourself sound supersticious
19:03<Nat_aS>it's like you are imagining nuclear power to be some sort of malicious demon that actively tries to cause mischief
19:04<Xaroth|Work>and thermal dissipation can be achieved by simply making it a big enough heatsink
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: no, i'm just discussing a very likely!! scenario of the power dropping out on the cooling system, after the plant shut down for any reason
19:04<Nat_aS>Eddi|zuHause: that problem has been solved by NORMAL reactors that are more modern than Fukashima
19:04<Xaroth|Work>it's not a uranium reactor
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth|Work: you.still.did.not.make.this.point
19:05<Nat_aS>there are regular heavy water reactors that have passive cooling systems
19:05<Nat_aS>Fukashima was build in the 60s
19:05<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: I disagree
19:05<Xaroth|Work>it runs on normal atmosphere
19:05<Nat_aS>newer reactors don't have that problem because it was addressed by people more educated than you a long time ago
19:06<Xaroth|Work>all the heat generated by the reaction goes into producing energy
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>well, you made this point multiple times, but you have not supplied any kind of data that supports it
19:06<Nat_aS>modern reactors are safe, LFTRs are even safer
19:06<Xaroth|Work>what kind of data do you want?
19:06<Nat_aS>and even unsafe reactors are the safest way to generate power if you go by deaths per KW hour
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19:07<Eddi|zuHause>that a tank of fuel in subcritical condition (i.w. chain reaction shut down) produces less heat than a conventional (spent) fuel rod
19:07<Xaroth|Work>you're sounding like wendy wright :|
19:07<Xaroth|Work>you want something, but you don't state what you want
19:09<Xaroth|Work>and uranium reacts differently, keep that in mind
19:09<Xaroth|Work>that's like asking for proof that an airplane without an engine won't go faster than a submarine
19:10<Xaroth|Work>spent fuel rods emit a high amount of radiation
19:10<Xaroth|Work>which makes them slightly more volatile
19:11<Xaroth|Work>and harder to handle
19:11<Xaroth|Work>most spent fuel rods are stored in large tanks of water
19:11<Xaroth|Work>where they are kept safe, as water blocks the radiation it emits
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>and now comes the part where you explain how that won't happen in a liquid thorium reactor
19:12<Xaroth|Work>where -what- won't happen?
19:12<Xaroth|Work>there's no such thing as 'spent fuel rods' in lftrs
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19:12<Xaroth|Work>it's a completely different system
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>this has no sense.
19:12<Xaroth|Work>they are different materials
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>you're not saying anything
19:12<Xaroth|Work>that behave differently
19:13<Nat_aS>Eddi|zuHause: you are not listening
19:13<Nat_aS>the information is all there
19:13<Nat_aS>you are chosing to be ignorant
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's like you're the PR guy who had 3 pages of lines he should repeat over and over, until people believe him
19:13<Nat_aS>like many do when it comes to this sort of thing
19:13<Nat_aS>maybe it's your responsibility to educate yourself
19:13<Xaroth|Work>it's like claiming plastic dents because cars use aluminium
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>you have shown nothing that you actually understood any internal physical or chemical details
19:13<Xaroth|Work>yes, both are used for this purpose
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>and when i ask you for them, you can't provide any
19:13<Xaroth|Work>but both work entirely differently
19:14<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: seriously, are you wendy wright?
19:14<Nat_aS>wendy wright?
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you don't actually say HOW plastic and aluminium are different
19:14<Xaroth|Work>I'm not going to explain you the periodic table
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should
19:14<Xaroth|Work>read a science book
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>because i studied neither physics nor chemistry.
19:15<Xaroth|Work>yet i'm pretty sure you've seen a periodic table
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>so maybe i'm missing something "obvious"
19:15<Xaroth|Work>one uses the Uranium elements
19:15<Nat_aS>[16:10] <Eddi|zuHause> because i studied neither physics nor chemistry.
19:15<Xaroth|Work>one uses the Thorium elements
19:15<Nat_aS>then shut the fuck up, sorry for the swearing
19:15<Xaroth|Work>two completely different elements
19:15<Xaroth|Work>who have different properties
19:16<Nat_aS>but thsi "My ignorance is just as valid as your knowledge" is irritating.
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>but they're still radioactive, and radioactive decay produces heat
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>and heat has to be dissipated
19:16<Nat_aS>and heat can be mannaged in a passive mannet
19:17<Nat_aS>there are uranium reactors that have passive cooling for waste products
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but apparently with "solid" fuel, passive cooling isn't enough
19:17<Nat_aS>no, it is
19:17<Xaroth|Work>it is more than enough under normal circumstances
19:17<Nat_aS>Fukashima was just an old design that relied too heavily on active cooling
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>and now i ask you how far liquid fuel differs
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>and you only say "it differs"
19:17<Nat_aS>and this was a known concern
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>without any reasonable explanation
19:17<Nat_aS>there was however another reactor in japan
19:17<Nat_aS>closer to the epicenter of the earthquake
19:17<Nat_aS>that shut down without issue
19:18<Nat_aS>Fukashima was old and due to be decomissioned because it was old and vulnerable
19:18<Nat_aS>it relied on active cooling, which as we all know is a bad idea
19:18<Nat_aS>it is not any sort of inherent flaw
19:18<Xaroth|Work>the main difference between the solid fuel reactors and liquid fuel reactors, is that solid fuel reactors operate under very high pressure
19:18<Xaroth|Work>which means that if shit DOES hit the fan
19:18<Xaroth|Work>the damage caused is far greater
19:19<Xaroth|Work>and because of the high pressure, other means of containing have to be used
19:19<Xaroth|Work>with the liquid fuel reactors, you don't have insane pressure, meaning you can use safer containments, with better "plan oh fuck" systems
19:20<Xaroth|Work>yes, they'll both generate heat constantly
19:20<Xaroth|Work>and no that's not really an issue for either
19:20<Xaroth|Work>it's just less safe for solid fuel than it is for liquid fuel
19:21<Xaroth|Work>you can't flash-drain a solid fuel reactor into an overflow to keep it from doing stuff you don't want
19:21<Xaroth|Work>because the pressure will just fuck shit over
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>and all that may possibly "increase safety", but nothing of that can explain a "can't ever happen"
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>and that is my point
19:22<Xaroth|Work>when a solid fuel reactor has to shut down
19:22<Xaroth|Work>they have to decrease pressure
19:22<Xaroth|Work>once it's in normal levels
19:23<Xaroth|Work>the system can't function
19:23<Xaroth|Work>heat dissipation will be greater or equal to the heat generated
19:24<Xaroth|Work>with liquid fuel, once you stop the reaction, heat dissipation will already be greater than heat generated
19:24<Xaroth|Work>so as Nat_aS said, it can't physically happen
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>and now you give me a table/formula/statistics where you support this statement with facts
19:24<Nat_aS>find it yourself
19:25<Nat_aS>you can chose to be ignorant if you want
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>no. find yourself on my ignore list
19:25<Nat_aS>but you have demonstraited that you just want to be ignorant
19:26<Xaroth|Work>o(ja) = ( Tj - Ta ) / Pd
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>if "please prove anything you say" is "ignorance" nowadays, i'm happy to be "ignorant" for the rest of my life
19:26<Xaroth|Work>how is it our task to prove known facts?
19:26<Xaroth|Work>but seriously
19:26<Xaroth|Work>that formula, is completely useless by itsel
19:27<Nat_aS>I'm just tired of this conversation
19:27<Xaroth|Work>it needs a few thousand variables to be filled in
19:27<Nat_aS>Xaroth is right, it sounds like talking about biology to a creationist.
19:28<Nat_aS>you are arguing from ignorance
19:28<Xaroth|Work>physics isn't 2=1+1 .. well, in the basics it is
19:28<Xaroth|Work>but if you want examples
19:28<Nat_aS>if you don't know about nuclear power, you shouldn't make arguments about it's relitive safety.
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>no, i'm arguing from a point where i'm not an expert in this field, and i talk to someone who acts like he knows everything
19:28<Xaroth|Work>you'd have to come up with a test case
19:29<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: and it's extremely difficult to explain such facts to people who just go 'prove it'
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: nobody you will ever talk to knows as much about <stuff> that you do. if you don't talk to these people, YOU are the ignorant
19:29<Xaroth|Work>I mean, I'm not going to 'prove' thermal dissipation
19:30<Nat_aS>burden of proof, argument from ignorance, and I'm sure there are a few more falacies I've missed
19:30<Nat_aS>also threatening to /ignore somebody and then continuing to argue with them, allways classy.
19:31<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: at the same time you expect proof as if you had knowledge of the subject, while you do not have sufficient knowledge
19:31<Xaroth|Work>even I don't know -all- the formulas and calculations
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth|Work: i have a basic knowledge of physics and chemistry. but you're not even referencing sources or citing statistics
19:31<Xaroth|Work>I know it's been peer reviewed
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>you're just saying "it is like it is."
19:32<Xaroth|Work>statistics are irrelevant
19:32<Xaroth|Work>they are dependant of variables
19:32<Xaroth|Work>you can't throw a wikipedia table to this
19:32<Xaroth|Work>you'd have to make a valid test case
19:32<Xaroth|Work>with all variables accounted for
19:32<Xaroth|Work>things like amount of liquid
19:32<Xaroth|Work>size of tank
19:33<Xaroth|Work>thickness of tank walls
19:33<Xaroth|Work>materials of which the tank walls comprise
19:33<Xaroth|Work>materials surrounding the tank
19:33<Xaroth|Work>materials IN the tank, other than the liquid
19:33<Xaroth|Work>it's simply not doable to go in such extreme depths to explain all that
19:34<Xaroth|Work>just because you want it explained in laymans terms
19:34<Xaroth|Work>the data has been peer reviewed
19:34<Xaroth|Work>the people who know that stuff better than any other have looked at it
19:34<Xaroth|Work>and they all agree
19:34<Xaroth|Work>(or at least, none of them bothered to disagree)
19:35<Xaroth|Work>and now i go snooze
19:35<Xaroth|Work>it's too late for me
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>if you say "it has been peer reviewed", then there must be a publication. but then you don't cite it.
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>your entire mode of discussion feels wrong
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>and that's why i'm still not believing anything you say
19:40<Nat_aS>how do you think we feel?
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21:35<KillerByte_>hey, I just started a new game 1024*1024 map and no oil rigs (offshore) are being generated, is this normal?
21:39<KillerByte_>is there a setting I should know about or something?
21:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, no offshore rigs will be generated at game start
21:45<Eddi|zuHause>but they have increased chance of being generated during the game
21:46<Eddi|zuHause>NewGRFs can override this behaviour
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 03 00:00:49 2013