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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-07-16

---Logopened Tue Jul 16 00:00:10 2013
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01:03<SamanthaD>I'm such a dork...
01:03<SamanthaD>After struggling to get those two patches to behave together (unsuccessfully)
01:04<SamanthaD>I learn that both patches have been merged into the development branch >.<
01:04*SamanthaD runs off to play with the beta
01:04<Supercheese>Lemme guess, cargodist and... vehicle separation?
01:05<pjpe>slim timetables
01:05<pjpe>whatever that is
01:05<pjpe>separation or something
01:05<Supercheese>I was close, eh
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01:48<SamanthaD>Supercheese: bingo ;)
01:48<Supercheese>Hehe :D
01:49<SamanthaD>the development branch is ace :3
01:49<SamanthaD>I'm enjoying the sin out of it
01:49<Supercheese>If you compile your own version, you can tweak it even further
01:49<SamanthaD>those two patches really breathe new life into the game IMHO
01:50<Supercheese>For instance, I've always hated the date restrictions placed on NewObjects and Station tiles, so I modified the source so that you can always build them regardless of date
01:50<SamanthaD>Oh? Those *ARE* annoying?
01:50<Supercheese>easier than trying to modify the newgrfs themselves, especially when many are not open source
01:51<SamanthaD>which station grfs aren't open source?!
01:51<Supercheese>NewStations
01:51<Supercheese>CanStations
01:51<SamanthaD>ah
01:51<Supercheese>etc.
01:51<SamanthaD>in other words nothing I play with :p
01:52<Supercheese>also, NML can't do stations, and I don't work with NOF
01:52<Supercheese>NFO*
01:52<V453000>^
01:52<SamanthaD>ah
01:52<Supercheese>.cpp is so much easier to read than .nfo
01:53<V453000>honestly station-looking newobjects are weird as you cant have the cargo detection in them :(
01:53*SamanthaD doesn't understand why someone wouldn't open source a newgrf
01:53<Nat_aS>because evil exists in this world
01:53<SamanthaD>;)
01:53<V453000>SamanthaD: you cannot understand it, those people have very "alternative" brains
01:53<V453000>I could say they are fucking douchebags but you know ...
01:53<Supercheese>Zounds, don't call mb that
01:53<SamanthaD>it's too bad, because some of those GRFs are really high quality
01:54<V453000>I was mainly aiming at simuscape dbags, mb is a tiny bit better
01:55<SamanthaD>what is simuscape?
01:55<Supercheese>You're probably better off not knowing
01:56<Supercheese>Ach, TortoiseSVN is failing on me
01:56<pjpe>is that that other train game
01:56<pjpe>that's like openttd but weirder and harder to set up
01:56<pjpe>and looks worse
01:56<Supercheese>No, it's a website
01:56<pjpe>what's the one i'm thinking of
01:56<Supercheese>Simutrans?
01:56<pjpe>sounds about right
01:56<Supercheese>Yeah, pretty similar
01:56<SamanthaD>Supercheese: Oooh! Forbidden fruit!
01:57<SamanthaD>Supercheese: According to my search engine it's a... MATLAB plugin. No... must be different project.
01:57<SamanthaD>I could never get Simutrans to freaking run right
01:57<SamanthaD>which is too bad...
01:57<Supercheese>Same here
01:57<SamanthaD>I always wanted to play Simutrans due to cargo distribution but could never get it to work right
01:58<SamanthaD>But now!
01:58<pjpe>it has some neat features that openttd doesn't but just getting to the point of playing with them is such a hill to climb
01:58<Supercheese>Simutrans has more of a CargoDest
01:58<SamanthaD>*dances happily with her brand new development branch binary*
01:58<Supercheese>than a CargoDist
01:58<SamanthaD>yup
01:58<SamanthaD>speaking of...
01:58<Supercheese>but, eh, details :P
01:58<SamanthaD>I have an idea for a patch!
01:59<SamanthaD>I figure the main reason why cargodest is better than cargodist is that it forces you to not ignore the little towns, right?
01:59<Supercheese>Well, it gives every cargo a desired destination
01:59<Supercheese>Irrespective of any current infrastructure
01:59<SamanthaD>well... how about a patch that scales passenger production as a fraction of system coverage?
01:59<Supercheese>Whereas cargodist just routes stuff around based on your current infrastructure
02:00<Supercheese>(at least that is how I understand it)
02:00<SamanthaD>yes, that's how I understand it, too
02:01<SamanthaD>Does that sound like a good idea, though?
02:01<Supercheese>I'm not sure I understand
02:02<Supercheese>what do you mean by system coverage?
02:02<SamanthaD>Oh, I mean the percentage of city tiles covered by your stations
02:02<SamanthaD>(and accessible to passengers, of course)
02:03<SamanthaD>in other words, the percentage of city tiles served by stations that have at least one passenger train serving them
02:04<V453000>so what you basically want is building totally random rails and make the game adapt
02:05<SamanthaD>well... what I'm thinking is a way to simulate the fact that if you're only covering a quarter of the map there's going to be a percentage of passengers who won't even bother riding your network 'cuz it doesn't go where they want it to go
02:07<SamanthaD>on the other hand... passengers will probably ride your system to get as close to their destination as possible
02:07<SamanthaD>meh, I guess I like cargodist
02:08<Supercheese>Cargodist always causes huge buildups of passengers whenever I try using it
02:08<Supercheese>and trains that are never full, despite 5,000 passengers waiting
02:09<V453000>SamanthaD: that would be extremely hard to expand your network
02:09<V453000>as with every additional small station you would get a ton of increased production
02:10<SamanthaD>hmm... I suppose
02:10<V453000>I still think that neither of cargo dist or dest, or yacd are anywhere close to the playability of original game
02:11<Supercheese>Yeah, me too
02:11<SamanthaD>Yes, but you can turn them off
02:11<Supercheese>yacd was interesting, but is now a very old patch
02:11<SamanthaD>eer... you can turn Cargodist off now that it's merged to trunk
02:12<V453000>yacd was motivating itself to play it as it suggested where to move cargo, unlike cargodist which doesnt force you to use it (in fact it is smarter to avoid using it even when it is on)
02:13<V453000>the problem was, building point-to-point hopping station web was the ultimate solution to it
02:13<V453000>but that is the same thing with cargodist, only a bit differently
02:13<V453000>therefore once you find out how it works and discover how to play it effectively, it loses all interestingness
02:13<V453000>as it directly enforces using the most primitive network layout
02:14<SamanthaD>I like the fact that I can build networks and have my passenger trains have more than one stop
02:14<SamanthaD>as in, my passenger trains can do more than just go from point A to point B
02:15<V453000>how are multiple stops an advantage :D
02:15<SamanthaD>It's how trains are in the real world and that's neat
02:16<V453000>doesnt make sense for the game though
02:16<SamanthaD>I guess...
02:16<SamanthaD>*shrugs* I like it
02:18<V453000>nuff sed
02:18<SamanthaD>'xactly
02:18<SamanthaD>maybe it's just that I haven't figured out how to make an optimal cargodist map yet
02:18<Supercheese>My current trend in games is to build a giant bi-directional circle around the map edge connecting as many cities as possible, then branch lines as necessary, to build the passenger network
02:19<SamanthaD>Supercheese: With cargodist or without?
02:19<Supercheese>then often just loads of P2P connections for industries
02:19<Supercheese>without
02:19<Supercheese>I've only tried cargodist a few times, and didn't much like it
02:19<SamanthaD>Supercheese: Do you transfer passengers or do you run the trains from the branch lines directly onto the main line?
02:20<montalvo>how difficult is it to compile openttd from source on a mac?
02:20<Supercheese>I usually never transfer, just grab passengers and dump them at the next station
02:21<SamanthaD>montalvo: https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/Compiling_on_Mac_OS_X
02:21<montalvo>thank you!
02:21<montalvo>i think i've come across a bug that can only be solved by compiling your own version
02:21<Supercheese>some express lines skip stations
02:21<montalvo>but i'm not sure
02:21<SamanthaD>montalvo: gonna go use the latest development version?
02:22<montalvo>i think 1.3.1 works fine too
02:22<montalvo>the bug in question - http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5606
02:22<SamanthaD>Supercheese: The thing that I don't like about normal cargo is that except for feeder lines (like buses that pick up pasengers and transfer them at the station) it NEVER makes economic sense to run local lines
02:23<Supercheese>It doesn't?
02:23<SamanthaD>Supercheese: Profit is a function of distance
02:23<Supercheese>Ah, I forgot to mention that I also run subways in large cities
02:23<Supercheese>those would definitely be local lines
02:23<Supercheese>and they work great
02:23<SamanthaD>subways?
02:24<peter1139>railways with lots of tunnels
02:24<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=62672
02:24<Supercheese>Nope
02:24<Supercheese>Fake Subways
02:24<peter1139>oh, trams
02:24<Supercheese>Well, just regular RVs really
02:24<Supercheese>hacked to appear as subways :P
02:24<peter1139>oh dear
02:24<peter1139>invisible RVs
02:24<SamanthaD>but wouldn't it make more sense, then, to use a transfer order for those passengers onto an express train that goes all the way to the other side of the map?
02:24<Supercheese>Translucent, anyway
02:25<peter1139>yeah, because subways appear translucent, right :p
02:25<SamanthaD>yup
02:25<Supercheese>Well, how else am I supposed to show where they are, mm?
02:25<Supercheese>hmm*
02:25<V453000>honestly using normal RVs is TONS nicer :)
02:26<Supercheese>Sure, they don't go very far, but I've given them enormous capacity
02:26<Supercheese>after all, the subways I've ridden on have carried many hundreds of folks
02:26<SamanthaD>I <3 Trams
02:28<Supercheese>Sheesh, how do I get GnuWin diff to write its output to a file?
02:29<Supercheese>:S
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02:30<Supercheese>wtf, needs the > operator
02:30<SamanthaD>if those subways are normal road vehicles... don't they occasionally wander all over the place?
02:30<Supercheese>that's pretty weird
02:30<Supercheese>Yeah, they can wander if they want
02:30<Supercheese>there's an option to make them trams, so they stick to tracks
02:30<Supercheese>but having above-ground tracks for "underground" vehicles is weird
02:30<@planetmaker>moin
02:31<V453000>moopurr
02:31<Supercheese>baaaaa
02:31<V453000>how them landscapes pm :)
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02:31<SamanthaD>Supercheese: I suppose they could have replacement tram tracks that look just like normal roads
02:31<@planetmaker>chilling desert winds have been howling over them during the night
02:31<Supercheese>Sure... but then what if you want to use "real" trams?
02:31<SamanthaD>write a patch that lets you have more than just two types of roads?
02:32<Supercheese>Wouldn't THAT be nice
02:32<Supercheese>:P
02:32<SamanthaD>n_n
02:32*Supercheese has been waiting for roadtypes for a while
02:32<Supercheese>I have a sinking feeling no dev wants to work on it because they know the first roadtype grf will be a subway hack
02:32<Supercheese>>__>
02:32<Supercheese>(unless they pre-empt with their own grf, of course)
02:33<V453000>:D
02:33<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Peter1138/Roadtypes
02:33<@planetmaker>there are several technical difficulties or at least tricky things to decide
02:34<V453000>to be or not to be
02:34<@planetmaker>for instance town growth is directly related to presence of roads. which roads?
02:34<Supercheese>Oh, or if NML support for roadtypes isn't added in a timely fashion
02:34<@planetmaker>that's easier than stations
02:35<@planetmaker>as it likely will follow all sane specs, it's a matter of rather simple copy & paste & adopt
02:36<@planetmaker>stations... work differently in NFO than everything else, as such need very special care when trying to support those in NML
02:37<Supercheese>Good to know
02:38<Supercheese>Well, figured out diff and patch command line stuff
02:39<Supercheese>I should have done that ages ago -_-
02:41<Supercheese>I hope that patch can handle applying 20+ patches to the same file
02:42<pjpe>would it be harder now to make a cargo destination patch now that cargodist is in the trunk or would their codebase not interfere too much?
02:42<SamanthaD>pjpe: what would you like it to do that cargodist doesn't?
02:42<Supercheese>YACD :P
02:43<pjpe>cargo destinations
02:43<pjpe>just wondering
02:44<SamanthaD>I'm not sure... but I imagine that cargodist's pathfinder could be hacked...
02:44<SamanthaD>OH! I have an idea on how to do it
02:45<SamanthaD>various units of cargo could have an idea of what tile they want to go to. From that they select either a station or nothing (in which case they disappear)
02:45<SamanthaD>and then, Cargodist's pathfinder could accurately route them
02:46<Supercheese>While that may seem simple, Murphy's Law applied to code dictates that it is probably not :P
02:46<Supercheese>although I do not know for sure
02:46<@planetmaker>pjpe, yes and no. They share some concepts
02:46<@planetmaker>from what I recall it would be easier to implement cargodist on top of yacd than vice versa, though.
02:46<pjpe>well that's nice
02:47<SamanthaD>one thing that I think Cargodist would make more difficult is if the target is covered by more than one station it might be difficult for cargo to switch routes mid-journey to the other applicable station
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02:50<SamanthaD>but that's kinda what my proposal was all about. Kind of a quick-and-dirty way to estimate what percentage of traffic would have routed to an unreachable destination.
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02:51<Supercheese>Huh, I wonder what the timestamp stuff in .diffs is used for
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02:52<Supercheese>It doesn't seem necessary for applying the patch
02:52<@planetmaker>it gives you information on when it was created :-)
02:52<SamanthaD>it's probably useful for when the patch doesn't apply properly
02:52<@planetmaker>allows to time-order different patches
02:53<@planetmaker>doesn't help with applying patches though
02:53<Supercheese>Yeah, for what I'm doing timestamps are irrelevant
02:53<@planetmaker>for what I do, too
02:53<Supercheese>but I guess if you have something like VC++ Intellisense it may be of some use
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02:54<@planetmaker>it only tells me maybe when I last touched a patch :-)
02:54<@planetmaker>more reliably than a file date could
02:58<Supercheese>Hmm, I'm applying patches that add lines, changing the numbers, and then wanting to apply many more such patches to the same file. I hope 20 lines of context for unified .diffs will allow them to apply, despite altered line numbers
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03:06<Supercheese>patch and diff are very cool
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03:10<@planetmaker>I made the experience that a tool like k3diff helps a lot when merging conflicting patches
03:10<@planetmaker>and that mercurial (and possibly git) work quite a bit better when trying to apply several patches than svn can
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03:14<Supercheese>TortoiseSVN has crapped out on me
03:14<Supercheese>I blame the new repo version stuff
03:17<@planetmaker>repo version stuff?
03:18<Supercheese>something like SVN repositories being upgraded from version X to version X+!
03:18<Supercheese>X+1*
03:18<@planetmaker>ah
03:21<Xaroth|Work>mornin
03:21<@planetmaker>moin Xaroth
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03:29<Supercheese>'night
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04:38<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C76T9_fThH0
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05:53<SamanthaD>I'm not sure I understand how I'm actually supposed to USE this new autoscheduling feature in the dev branch
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>you set up one vehicle's schedule so it has enough buffer time to catch up delays, and then you ctrl+click on "start date" to set up the other vehicles that share the same timetable. also you should have enough overtaking capacity at the waiting stations
06:04<SamanthaD>OH! I see. Thanks!
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06:19<dihedral>greetings
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06:39<Eddi|zuHause>is it just me or is the forum awfully slow today?
06:43<peter1139>it's you
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07:05<Eddi|zuHause>now it's fine again
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07:31*peter1139 mumbles about random play picking the same songs over and over...
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08:30<@Belugas>Roxaaaane!
08:30<@Belugas>hello
08:31<NCG3982>Mmm. Toto.
08:32<@Belugas>Hold the line!
08:34<NCG3982>So ..flat.
08:36<@Belugas>so... my era ;)
08:36<NCG3982>Hehe.
08:36<NCG3982>I grew up with Toto.
08:36<NCG3982>I have always loved it, but lately, i've been finding it so ..flat.
08:37<@Belugas>i these days, the productions were not to the qality of the today's stuff
08:38<@Belugas>but what they lacked in quality, they won over inspiration
08:38<@Belugas>althouhg they were exceptions... Dark Side Of The Moon, as an example ;)
08:39<@planetmaker>Belugas, you need to make sure to bring music :-9
08:40<@Belugas>i have about 600 on my phone, some by peter and I, some by me and a lot by others. But I doubt they will lift up a good party
08:40<@Belugas>I have a tendancy to love dark mood music...
08:41<V453000>planetmaker: if people get naughty you can scare them with the threat of me taking over the music ... and they dont want that
08:42<@Belugas>ho? why is that?
08:42<V453000>hevy n stuff
08:42<@Belugas>Deathmole?
08:42<V453000>mostly melodeath but depends
08:43<@planetmaker>Belugas, I fear that V453000 might be right :D
08:43*Belugas smells fun at the party :D
08:43<V453000>:D
08:43<@planetmaker>deathmole... I only know that from QC
08:44<@Belugas>Quebec??
08:44*Belugas feels he will feed his phone some more stuff...
08:45<V453000>how old are deathmole
08:45<peter1139>heh
08:46<@Belugas>deathmole is actually only one guy, Jeff Jacques
08:46<@Belugas>hem... jeph
08:46<V453000>oh :)
08:46<@Belugas>virtual band
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08:46<@Belugas>but the stuff he records is.. amazing
08:46<@Belugas>and freaking heavy
08:47<V453000>is pretty good but I miss moar energy in there
08:47<V453000>Soilwork is one of the bands I like most
08:47<peter1139>planetmaker, odd that
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08:47<@Belugas>he drops his guitar to C, instead of E. that makes it... intense
08:48<@Belugas>ho.. Questionnable COntents...
08:48<V453000>:D
08:48<V453000>this isnt questionable :(
08:48<V453000>whats that anyway, like a tv thing?
08:49<peter1139>wut
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08:49<@planetmaker>oh, trallala :-) See
08:50<@planetmaker>you don't know questionable content? http://questionablecontent.net/
08:51<V453000>no, everything I do is not questionable :P
08:51<@planetmaker>questionable :-P
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08:53<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i should probably not have clicked on "samurai roxudoku"
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09:06<peter1139>hmm
09:06<peter1139>why is evolution sending a client tls certificate to my mail server
09:06<peter1139>and why is my mail server accept that certificate as valid authentication?
09:06<V453000>because evolution fucked up about 40 000 years ago
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09:33<TinyMusic>This is OpenTTD?
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09:34<V453000>:D
09:34<V453000>ok
09:34<murr4y>This is Sparta
09:34<V453000>exactly
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09:43<V453000>what is the unit of FIRS coffee?
09:43<V453000>bags?
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10:13<NCG3982>Mmm.
10:13<NCG3982>Coffee.
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10:46<fonsinchen>In reply to pjpe and SamanthaD this morning: It is certainly possible to make Cargodist behave like YACD or Cargodest by modifying the demand function (in src/linkgraph/demands.cpp).
10:46<fonsinchen>Cargodist does not route packets individually but instead defines flows at the stations. The demand function is the place to influence that.
10:47<fonsinchen>However, the hard part is finding the desirable destinations in the first place without searching for too long.
10:47<fonsinchen>Neither me nor michi_cc have found an efficient solution to that.
10:56<Xaroth|Work>have you tried turning it off and on again?
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11:03<fonsinchen>Yes, I've turned the purple fridge off an on multiple times already, but I still haven't found a solution.
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11:13<Xaroth|Work>have you tried plugging it in? another common mistake
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12:02<LordAro>heyo all
12:03<@planetmaker>o/
12:04<LordAro>hi pm
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12:15<Eddi|zuHause>wait, you have a purple fridge _AND_ a purple horse?
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25615 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-07-16 17:45:23 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 26 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 4 changes by p0358
13:45<@DorpsGek>turkish - 30 changes by wakeup
13:47<Sacro>\o/
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14:31<notbigfoot>Hello. I see that the auto-renew feature has been removed from OpenTTD. Is there a patch to reintroduce it?
14:31<@planetmaker>it hasn't been removed.
14:32<notbigfoot>Well, I can't find it anymore at least
14:32<@planetmaker>it hasn't changed either
14:32<notbigfoot>Well, it's not in advanced settings anymore
14:32<pjpe>have any of the big devs taken a look at that russian underground layer patch?
14:32<pjpe>i imagine the current code for that would look like a small disaster
14:32<notbigfoot>So if it is still there, can you tell me where to find it?
14:33<@planetmaker>change settings type from 'basic settings' to 'advanced' or 'expert'
14:33<notbigfoot>Urgh
14:33<notbigfoot>OK
14:33<notbigfoot>That did it
14:33<notbigfoot>I even tried searching for it
14:33<@planetmaker>:-)
14:33<notbigfoot>Why hide such a basic feature, though? :P
14:33<notbigfoot>(Thanks)
14:33<@planetmaker>it's difficult to decide as what is 'basic', 'advanced' and 'expert'
14:33<Xaroth|Work>it's not -that- basic
14:33<@planetmaker>There's as many opinions as people :-)
14:34<notbigfoot>I'm sure :)
14:34<notbigfoot>I'll refrain from introducing any more of my opinions on the matter then :P
14:34<notbigfoot>I'm sure you've had enough flame wars over it already
14:34<@planetmaker>not really. But flame wars aren't needed in any case :-)
14:34<notbigfoot>:)
14:35<notbigfoot>Anyway, thanks for the help... Back to no longer manually renewing my trains
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14:35<@planetmaker>of course it's feasible to make a survey as of which settings are most often changed, most often used...
14:35<Nat_aS>I allways turn on the most advanced features
14:35*Nat_aS likes having enough rope to hang himself with
14:35<@planetmaker>damn, Xaroth and that guy have the same colour
14:35<Xaroth|Work>wait WHAT?!?
14:36<@Rubidium>pff... everyone has the same colour, except ME!
14:36<@planetmaker>:-)
14:36<Xaroth|Work>aye
14:36<@Rubidium>although... technically it could even be the same colour, just a different hue
14:37<@Rubidium>s/hue/saturation/
14:37<@planetmaker>pjpe, the thread alone shows how many problems the patch still has
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14:38<pjpe>the 2 page thread that's just "so this crashed after 5 minutes, what's up with that?" for 90% of the posts?
14:38<@planetmaker>pjpe, http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/3d/ is similarily interesting and 5 years older :-)
14:39<@planetmaker>http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/newmap.git is also quite interesting
14:40<pjpe>if only i was a genie
14:40<@planetmaker>^ that I wish for myself, too :-)
14:40<@planetmaker>the latter is actually even more interesting. As it opens doors to many more interesting things and extensibility
14:41<@Rubidium>oh joy... the diff starts with a binary diff of opntitle.dat...
14:42<@Rubidium>and adding changelog.txt, readme.txt and removing some ignore files
14:42<@Rubidium>then ofcourse the obligatory MSVC files that should never reach a diff
14:43<@Rubidium>and I think they changed the command handler to 64 bits to be able to have those insanely huge maps
14:44<@planetmaker>hm...
14:44<@planetmaker>http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/newmap.git/commit/21853f9f734436acb75eae1938987d6fbe16d379 <--- can I do that (and with rail sprites as well)?
14:44<@planetmaker>it would simplify my grid line patch TREMENDOUSLY
14:45<@planetmaker>^ Rubidium ?
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14:46<@planetmaker>well... not tremendously. But move issues. To a more friendly place likely :-)
14:46<@Rubidium>oh lol...
14:47<@Rubidium>xUSSR set price multipliers are made 'proper' settings... instead of a setting of the NewGRF
14:47<@planetmaker>what does that mean?
14:48<@Rubidium>+STR_CONFIG_SETTING_PRICE_MULT_RAIL_08 :Multiplier for building rails No08: {STRING2}
14:48<@Rubidium>+STR_CONFIG_SETTING_PRICE_MULT_RAIL_08_HELPTEXT :Multiplier for building rails No08{}{ORANGE}xUSSR Set >r851: {WHITE}Trunk Electrified AC Railroad (140km/h) {}{ORANGE}NuTrack 1.1.2: {WHITE}High Speed Rail
14:49<@planetmaker>o_O in OpenTTD itself :-D
14:50<@Rubidium>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2400/ <- EOI
14:52<@Rubidium>planetmaker: it'd break oldrail, right?
14:53<@planetmaker>Rubidium, yes, if simply moved as new action5 items, it will
14:55<@planetmaker>maybe it would need some provision to re-direct actionA write access to those new action5 sprites
14:55<@planetmaker>not sure whether that is sanely possible
14:55<@planetmaker>hm... actually, Rubidium, the openttd.grf could simply overwrite the road/rail sprites with transparent versions
14:56<@planetmaker>via actionA itself
14:56<@planetmaker>then nothing breaks
14:57<andythenorth>o/
14:57<andythenorth>o/
14:57<@planetmaker>unless a NewGRF uses those road or rail sprites as its own ground sprites.
14:57<@planetmaker>which... only stations would do. But there the rail is mostly covered anyway
14:57<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
14:58<@planetmaker>pjpe, don't take it bad. But from what rubi just quoted it more looks like a hack than a patch
14:58<pjpe>what the russian thing?
14:58<@planetmaker>the 3D underground thing
14:58<pjpe>yeah that's what i expected
14:59<pjpe>i want there to be so bad underground building but i know that that russian thing isn't going to come to fruition
14:59<@planetmaker>still, it's a difficult thing to get going at all, thus what's seen there is already loads of work
14:59<@planetmaker>My personal bets would be on something along the lines of what I linked with michi's repo, the lomo style maps
15:00<@planetmaker>once they're there, adding additional layers can be done
15:00<andythenorth>hmm
15:00*andythenorth considers making FIRS compatible with ECS
15:00<@planetmaker>or so I understand the intention :-)
15:00<@planetmaker>how, andythenorth ?
15:00<andythenorth>all that's needed is a cargo-translation-table-translation-table
15:00<@planetmaker>FIRS vector?
15:00<andythenorth>and to increase the industry and cargo limits
15:00<pjpe>wait why is locomotion shortened to lomo
15:01<@planetmaker>lazyness in spelling so many chars?
15:01<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1086915#p1086915
15:01<pjpe>but not loco
15:01<pjpe>lomo
15:01<pjpe>HOW PECULIAR
15:01<andythenorth>also wtf are people's FIRS map gen runs so fricking slow?
15:01<@planetmaker>LOcoMOtion
15:02<@Rubidium>pjpe: always better than l10n and i18n
15:02<@planetmaker>pjpe, generally, in OpenTTD development it's good to have big goals. And go small steps :-)
15:02<@planetmaker>That way often gets done more than big chunky things
15:03<Xaroth|Work>whether it's 'good' or not can be debated
15:03<@planetmaker>Things like CargoDist are very tricky to integrate and get right
15:03<@planetmaker>or Yacd
15:03<@planetmaker>those processes took months to years
15:04<@planetmaker>thus it also needs stamina :-) And talking
15:04<Xaroth|Work>months to years? wasn't there a cargodist like.. 4 years ago already?
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15:04<@planetmaker>maybe :-) But actual integration didn't start 4 years ago
15:04<@Rubidium>art thee sure?
15:04<@planetmaker>rather like 9 or 12 month ago it was decided to start merging it
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15:04<Xaroth|Work>that was because it took 4 years to get approval for integration
15:05<andythenorth>so I generated a (just one, it's not science) 2048x2048 map, high towns, high industry, 70% water, mountainous, high variety distribution, very rough
15:05<andythenorth>1m 41s
15:05<andythenorth>1m 30s of that was town placement
15:05<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you got a fast computer :-)
15:05<andythenorth>about 7s was FIRS
15:05<andythenorth>so wtf am I getting these reports about slow FIRS?
15:05<@planetmaker>but I don't understand 'slow FIRS' either tbh
15:05<Xaroth|Work>andythenorth: and without FIRS?
15:05<andythenorth>dunno
15:05<andythenorth>didn't test - not science :)
15:06<Xaroth|Work>benchmarking is science :)
15:06<andythenorth>the game tells you what it's doing during map gen though
15:06<andythenorth>I don't have a fast computer, I have a mac
15:06<@planetmaker>Xaroth, and actually the predecessors, cargodest and yacd were not completely in vain either on the way to cargodist
15:07<@planetmaker>they proved each some discussion basis and insights as well :-)
15:08<@Rubidium>@commit 17720
15:08<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Commit by rubidium :: r17720 /trunk/src (9 files in 2 dirs) (2009-10-06 17:23:15 UTC)
15:08<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: -Codechange: guard the CargoPacket variables that are cached in CargoLists so they cannot be written from outside the CargoList class (based on patch by fonsinchen)
15:08<@planetmaker>:-)
15:08<@Rubidium>merge from cargodist ;)
15:08<@planetmaker>I know
15:09<Xaroth|Work>so, almost 4 years of getting it in :P
15:09<@planetmaker>we can prove 4 years, too
15:09<andythenorth>ok, different random seed, no FIRS: 1m 42s
15:09<@planetmaker>But about one year ago we decided to actually get the feature into trunk
15:09<andythenorth>not science :P
15:09<@planetmaker>as it was "suck it now or I leave it" Kinda rightfully
15:10<pjpe>whatever happened with this loco style newmap by michi branch
15:10<pjpe>did he just get bored with it?
15:10<@planetmaker>simply nothing happened :-)
15:11<@planetmaker>dunno anymore about performance results
15:11<@planetmaker>that's the interesting point really
15:11<@planetmaker>codechange with performance drop on the most-used data structure of the game would be bad
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15:14<+michi_cc>pjpe: Some strange thing abbreviated with RL happened to it (also called the not-a-student-anymore-syndrome).
15:14<pjpe>eyyyyyyyy this guy
15:15<Xaroth|Work>o/ michi_cc
15:15<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> planetmaker: it'd break oldrail, right? <-- afair something was done to the shore sprites, so if actionA replacement is used, the additional sprites aren't used anymore
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15:16<@planetmaker>too bad really, michi_cc :-)
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>we should forbid this RL, it's too "realistic"
15:17<@planetmaker>we should all go NUTS, I guess :D
15:17<Xaroth|Work>the graphics can be quite crap at times though
15:17<+michi_cc>It's aging well though, almost no changes related to the map array so updating is usually easy.
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>nobody dares to touch the map array :p
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15:21<@planetmaker>michi_cc, does it hit you as hard as yexo? ;-)
15:22<andythenorth>you should all work for me :)
15:22<@Belugas>map array... maybe add the subject at the party? everyone is on good mood, all relaxed and all...
15:22<andythenorth>loads of spare time
15:22<@Belugas>or.. maybe not...
15:22<andythenorth>the pay is terrible
15:23<andythenorth>the boss can be difficult
15:23<@planetmaker>:-) does it involve lego?
15:24<andythenorth>not much
15:24<@planetmaker>ahw
15:25<andythenorth>mostly python
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15:25<Eddi|zuHause>SSssssssss ssss ssssss
15:25<@planetmaker>can I programme websites in LabView?
15:26<andythenorth>if you have enough time
15:26<andythenorth>probably
15:26<@Rubidium>planetmaker: why not?
15:26<@Rubidium>e.g. http://www.ni.com/white-paper/7350/en/
15:26<@planetmaker>it's like using a wrench to hammer-in a nail :-)
15:27<@planetmaker>last time I needed LabView funnily enough the provided example programme was enough for me :-) Just took me two days to figure it out :D
15:28<@Rubidium>though, you probably still need to write loads of non-LV code
15:30<@planetmaker>unrelated... but I just bookmarked it: http://choosealicense.com/
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15:38<frosch123>i think i saw that on the forums before
15:39<frosch123>hmm, no, was only very similar
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15:40<@planetmaker>this is by github. There's one called very similar by the CC project
15:42<Xaroth|Work>you mean http://creativecommons.org/choose/
15:43<@planetmaker>that's the one I knew already, yes
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16:26*andythenorth should write code
16:26<andythenorth>but brain freeze :P
16:26<andythenorth>I've run out of things to pointlessly rework on FISH
16:26*Xaroth|Work throws some lava over andythenorth
16:27<andythenorth>I guess I could rework the reworking
16:27<andythenorth>why release a newgrf when it can be endlessly rewritten instead?
16:28<@planetmaker>that sounds so totally un-andy-ish
16:28<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: didn't ottdcoop do cmd logging?
16:28<@planetmaker>as opposed to the release early, release often?
16:28<@planetmaker>Xaroth, yes... but patches, lazyness, and the better alternative just at the horizon
16:29<Xaroth|Work>how much data is that, per game?
16:29<Xaroth|Work>(ballpark figure)
16:29<@planetmaker>let me look. not too much
16:30<andythenorth>planetmaker: bundles server releases often my rewriting ;)
16:30<andythenorth>"look, no changes!"
16:30<@planetmaker>Xaroth, 2M / 14 days
16:30<Xaroth|Work>2 megs?
16:30<Xaroth|Work>that's not that much :o
16:30<@planetmaker>hm... maybe not
16:30<Xaroth|Work>i would have expected 20+ at least
16:30<@planetmaker>that might have been w/o that patch
16:30<@planetmaker>yes
16:31<Xaroth|Work>qoi 'alternatives' though?
16:31<Xaroth|Work>admin port?
16:31<Xaroth|Work>or?
16:33<@planetmaker>you're right. between 15 and 40M per game.
16:33<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2401/
16:33<@planetmaker>yes, admin port
16:35<@planetmaker>that alternative let me loose motivation to spend time on something thoroughly outdated and possibly causing bugs
16:36<@planetmaker>and on the positive side, I don't know any time we needed the logs after we ceased logging every command ;-)
16:36<@planetmaker>there were a few cases when we introduced it, but ... :-) nice community in general
16:37<andythenorth>code or internet
16:37*andythenorth chooses internet :P
16:37<@planetmaker>:-)
16:38<frosch123>night
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16:38<andythenorth>cogwheel train http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=443561&nseq=68
16:39<andythenorth>hmm
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16:39<andythenorth>HEQS...?
16:39<Wolf01>hello o/
16:39<@planetmaker>looks like a passenger train - which would not exactly fit HEQS
16:39<andythenorth>oh good point
16:40<andythenorth>NewHEQS
16:40<andythenorth>PAXHEQS
16:40<@planetmaker>looks rather it fits swissfan's set ;-)
16:40<@planetmaker>FEQS. Funny equipment set
16:40<andythenorth>winner
16:41*andythenorth tries to reverse-acronym FUQ
16:41<andythenorth>childish :P
16:41<andythenorth>maybe V453000 could help?
16:42<Xaroth|Work>Fittable Universal.. something ?
16:42<@planetmaker>eQuipment
16:42<@planetmaker>Funny Unique eQuipment
16:42<Xaroth|Work>Funny Unique eXchanges ?
17:03<V453000>Fucking Ultimate Quality
17:03<V453000>no? :P
17:04<Xaroth|Work>Fantastic Unique Quality
17:04<Xaroth|Work>combine it a bit
17:04<andythenorth>V453000: FUQ Ultimate Quality?
17:05<V453000>:DDD awesome for me
17:09<andythenorth>you should make it :P
17:09<andythenorth>what's in it?
17:09<V453000>nothing
17:10<V453000>perhaps replacing all strings with fuck
17:10<andythenorth>or 'awesome'
17:10<andythenorth>randomised trolling
17:13<@Rubidium>planetmaker: not even using the built-in command logging? ;)
17:14<@planetmaker>hm?
17:15<@Rubidium>-Ddesync=1
17:16<@planetmaker>ah, no :-)
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17:20<@Rubidium>though, not having to use that it a *good* thing
17:33<andythenorth>hmm
17:33<andythenorth>Xaroth|Work: if I have a class declaring a property directly (not via __init__), how do I access that prop later?
17:34<andythenorth>self.foo isn't found
17:34<andythenorth>foo isn't found
17:37<@planetmaker>yeah... desync is bad bad bad
17:37<@planetmaker>I'll resync now with my bed, though
17:37<@planetmaker>good night everyone
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17:40*andythenorth has misunderstood mixins
17:40<andythenorth>nvm
17:45*andythenorth wonders about correct way to check a method exists
17:45<andythenorth>I just used hasattr()
17:45<andythenorth>which works for me
17:46<andythenorth>could have used dir() I guess
17:48<andythenorth>bed
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18:09<SamanthaD>I'm sorry if this is a silly question but it was my impression that the development branch got some sort of automatic timetable feature
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18:10<SamanthaD>I don't think it's working for me or... at least I'm not sure how to play with it
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18:13<SamanthaD>I asked last night and they said to spread out the vehicles you set up the timetable as normal and then ctrl-click the "set start date" button but... I thought there was supposed to be a way to automate it and make it adapt to unexpected things
18:16<Wolf01>'night
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18:27<Eddi|zuHause>it's a one-time step, it won't automatically adjust things later on
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18:50<SamanthaD>Aweh... thanks
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19:21<SamanthaD>if I patch OpenTTD and decide to remove it later, `svn -R revert .` on the top level directory will get rid of all my patches, right?
19:24<SamanthaD>nevermind, I figured it out. Thanks
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>just keep in mind that most patches will break savegame compatibility, even if you later compile with the same patch
19:26<SamanthaD>Thanks, I'll remember that
19:40<SamanthaD>also, is there a way I can ssh/ssl tunnel my svn downloads for OpenTTD?
19:51<SamanthaD>ah, figured it out
19:51<SamanthaD>svn checkout https://secure.openttd ect...
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 17 00:00:13 2013