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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-07-31

---Logopened Wed Jul 31 00:00:33 2013
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01:07<NGC3982>Morning.
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02:26<Pecio>Hi. v1.3.2 don`t start in windows98 :-(
02:37<@planetmaker>yes
02:37<@planetmaker>despite that a good morning to all
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02:41<@planetmaker>anyway, you should consider to upgrade your OS. windows98 has rather big security holes
02:42<@planetmaker>A fix likely will be available in 1.3.3. And its release candidates which also will need testing. Obviously no-one tested the release candidates of 1.3.2 during this month
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02:48<Pecio>This comp with W98 is use only for game OTTD :-)
02:51<@planetmaker>wouldn't stop it to act as spam sender concurrently
02:51<@planetmaker>or malware distributor
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03:04<__ln__>i don't suppose w98 is a priority for spammers to support nowadays
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03:14<@Alberth>moin
03:16<Xaroth|Work>o/
03:26<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r25639 /trunk/src (30 files in 2 dirs) (2013-07-31 07:25:58 UTC)
03:26<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Rename both 'STR_ERROR_NO_VEHICLES_AVAILABLE*' strings.
03:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r25640 /trunk/src (engine.cpp lang/english.txt) (2013-07-31 07:30:18 UTC)
03:30<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Do not suggest a start date for the game when there will be no vehicles available at all.
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04:27<TWerkhoven>Xaroth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/soap/
04:27<TWerkhoven>bear in mind its early stages, and im using it to get back in to programming
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04:43<Xaroth|Work>TWerkhoven: hah, I had expected as such
04:44<TWerkhoven>the former or the latter?
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05:06<Xaroth|Work>TWerkhoven: you can also install libottdadmin2 through pip: sudo pip install git+git://github.com/Xaroth/libottdadmin2
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05:06<@planetmaker>would be worth to add that to *your* readme, Xaroth ;-)
05:07<Xaroth|Work>but that would mean adding content to README.md ....
05:07<@planetmaker>makes rtfm so much more joyful :-P
05:07<Xaroth|Work>I mean.. that's dangerous!
05:07<TWerkhoven>or you could create a .txt
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05:07<Xaroth|Work>but yeh, that's also on my to-do-list
05:08<TWerkhoven>anyway, pip does still require sudo rights at least?
05:08<Xaroth|Work>well, not per se
05:08<Xaroth|Work>if you do it in a virtualenv
05:08<@planetmaker>I mean... what would I do if I couldn't quote openttd readme, chapter 4.2 on a weekly basis? ;-)
05:08<Xaroth|Work>wait, openttd has a readme?
05:08<@planetmaker>no. just kidding
05:08<TWerkhoven>i seen the file, not the contents
05:09<Xaroth|Work>phew, you had me worried there
05:33<Xaroth|Work>oh hg, how i hate you so
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05:39<dihedral>greetings
05:40<@Alberth>o/
05:45<@planetmaker>\o
05:46<Xaroth|Work>http://developerexcuses.com/
05:50<dihedral>nice webpage :-D
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05:51<sla_ro|master>lol
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05:51<@planetmaker>best is "We spent 3 month debugging it because we only had one month to build it" :-)
05:54<@planetmaker>if you add any /blah or so to the URL the webpage maintainer will also need one of those excuses ;-)
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06:28<LordAro>heyo
06:28<Xaroth|Work>o/
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06:50<Eddi|zuHause>this "the person responsible for this doesn'T work here anymore" is currently tried by our minister of defense...
06:51<@planetmaker>I'd be more in favour of "the person responsible for this *will* not work here anymore"
06:57<Xaroth|Work>TWerkhoven: added a basic enum system
06:57<Xaroth|Work>for the poll/update freq stuff
06:58<Xaroth|Work>wait
06:58<Xaroth|Work>i derped
06:58<Xaroth|Work>hard..
07:00<Xaroth|Work>thar :P
07:05<TWerkhoven>:D
07:31<Xaroth|Work>heh, ESPN used to broadcast M:TG tournaments O_O
07:31-!-krinn [~krinn@53.54.71.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd
07:31<krinn>hi
07:32<TWerkhoven>so if i import the approprate enums, i can use updateFreq = UpdateFrequency(AUTOMATIC)
07:32<TWerkhoven>right?
07:32<TWerkhoven>ello krinn
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07:33<__ln__>home sweet home
07:35<__ln__>my luggage is still in copenhagen though... or who knows where.
07:37<@planetmaker>"nice"
07:37<Xaroth|Work>TWerkhoven: UpdateFrequency.AUTOMATIC
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07:56<Twofish>Copenhagen is a nice city. Maybe you should join your luggage, __ln__ ?
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08:00<__ln__>too late for that
08:02<Twofish>Well, you should bring it along and go back then :)
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08:19<NGC3982>I love Copenhagen. It's only two hours away, and it easily has the best nightlife in the north.
08:19<NGC3982>And danes are great people.
08:21<Xaroth|Work>eek; had to give my boss a rough estime on how 'good' an openerp plugin was ... the coding used was flakey at best ... now he's giving the developers an ear full
08:22<Xaroth|Work>apparently I'm our "In house expert" on openerp .. wut?
08:22<__ln__>i should try copenhagen at summer, yes, though it wasn't bad at winter either. expensive though.
08:23<@Rubidium>congratulations with your promotion?
08:23<Xaroth|Work>:|
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08:30<Xaroth|Work>TWerkhoven: how come the .settimeout on the socket?
08:33<TWerkhoven>that might be left over from when i copied stuff from admin-rcon tto get familiar with the adminclient
08:33<TWerkhoven>is it unneeded?
08:34<Xaroth|Work>well, the only time you need it is for your call to recv_packet .. but you can combine all that in .poll()
08:34<Xaroth|Work>.poll takes timeout as an argument
08:35<Xaroth|Work>hm, i might even make that something configurable, that poll timeout
08:35<TWerkhoven>does poll not work with 1 second?
08:35<TWerkhoven>and is it not already changeable?
08:35<Xaroth|Work>.poll(0.1) waits 0.1 second :)
08:36<Xaroth|Work>but if I add a timeout to .configure
08:36<Xaroth|Work>you don't have to constantly send the timeout
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08:36<TWerkhoven>poll also terminates early upon receiving a packet, right?
08:37<Xaroth|Work>yep
08:37<Xaroth|Work>it returns as soon as it receives, OR when it reaches timeout
08:39<TWerkhoven>that works for me
08:40<TWerkhoven>i can use high timeouts so that the polling thread wont soak up too much cpu
08:40<TWerkhoven>untill openttd decides to spam me with packets that is ;)
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08:41<Xaroth|Work>:)
08:41<Xaroth|Work>hence why the default is 1.0
08:41<Xaroth|Work>epoll/poll aren't -that- heavy on the system though
08:43<TWerkhoven>true
08:43<Xaroth|Work>also, if you want to run several connections from 1 location
08:43<TWerkhoven>the testbot is running in a vm wich has 1 atom core available
08:43<Xaroth|Work>you might want to check .poll() and implement that yourself
08:43<TWerkhoven>thats a long-term goal
08:44<TWerkhoven>version 2.0 or something
08:44<TWerkhoven>but i do plan it eventually, which is why i made the SoapClient to extend AdminClient
08:44<Xaroth|Work>AdminClient should be extended, yeh
08:45<Xaroth|Work>hence why I did __init_handlers__ and __init_events__ etc
08:45<Xaroth|Work>so you can add your custom events and handlers
08:45<TWerkhoven>thats over my head atm
08:45<Xaroth|Work>I tried to keep it as simple as possible :)
08:46<TWerkhoven>i'll get there
08:46<TWerkhoven>eventually
08:46<Xaroth|Work>the end of __init_handlers__ shows how to add a function handler for a specific packet
08:46<Xaroth|Work>(I use that to store the protocol info and the map info on the connection)
08:57<@Belugas>hello
08:57-!-Tom_Soft [~id@pool-77-222-102-194.is74.ru] has joined #openttd
08:59<Tom_Soft>Hello
09:00<@Alberth>hi
09:00<krinn>hi
09:03<TWerkhoven>ola
09:05*roboboy ponders producing monthlies of the DOS port of OpenTTD :P
09:06<roboboy>assuming I can get a build environment set up for doing so
09:06<V453000>lol
09:07<roboboy>as currently if you want to play OpenTTD on DOS, you have to either build it your self or find a very very outdated build
09:07<V453000>who uses DOS :D
09:08<roboboy>I had a machine with Franken DOS setup on it
09:08<roboboy>it had bits of DOS 4 and 6 plus bit's of FreeDOS and various unix utilities that were ported to DOS
09:09<roboboy>and there is a screenshot of OpenTTD running on that system on the wiki
09:13<roboboy>but more important for me is to try and get TTDPatch to compile. I should be able to easily get OpenTTD to compile if I can get TTDP to
09:24<@Alberth>what does that need? an assembler?
09:25<krinn>shouldn't using dosbox be easier ?
09:26<@planetmaker>roboboy, getting openttd compile might be easier due to availability and working with current software. New compilers might barf on meanwhile not supported flags or stuff - like you found out
09:26<@planetmaker>from what I saw there in the forums, my bet would be that some small fixes to the Makefile with changes to some compile flags *might* do the trick
09:27<roboboy>TTDP needs GCC plus NASM
09:28<@Alberth>like the nml approach thus :) use gcc preprocessing to collect the source, and push it all through the assembler
09:29<@planetmaker>:D
09:30<@Alberth>although gcc can also generate assembly language as its output
09:34<krinn>i'm upload to bananas a new stuff, it suggest me to re-use existing tags, where can i find them, what it is use for ? (poor memory)
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10:00<roboboy>I am going to try and older version of GCC
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10:04<@planetmaker>krinn, tags are keywords which users can use in the search box in order to obtain a (reduced) list of things
10:06<@planetmaker>krinn, I don't know whether there currently is online a list of existing tags, but I'm quite sure that Rubidium has the list of tags used on bananas somewhere
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10:14<krinn>planetmaker, thanks, i just put two tags i think are related: library and engine
10:14<krinn>planetmaker, for this kind of use, pretty sure a user never really wish find a library anyway
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10:18<krinn>planetmaker, is there something special with the readme file, dictatorai show its readme, and the lib doesn't with using the same readme file name
10:20<@planetmaker>show where, krinn ? Users cannot use a lib directly
10:21<krinn>online content checks
10:21<@planetmaker>but... you can only read files from content you have locally
10:21<krinn>oh that's it so
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10:32<AquSe>Hello.
10:34<@planetmaker>hi
10:35<krinn>hi
10:36<AquSe>I have a quick question, if I have a train with oil, can I transfer them to an oil tanker so it then travels by sea?
10:36<AquSe>Or that's impossible?
10:36<Xaroth|Work>quite possible
10:36<Xaroth|Work>transfer orders
10:37<Xaroth|Work>you make the train unload at the station to which you both have train and boat stations connected (yes, I know they are called docks..)
10:37<Xaroth|Work>the boat then can load as normal
10:38<AquSe>So the dock will store the oil?
10:39<Pinkbeast>Yes, any station can store any amount of stuff.
10:39<AquSe>Okay, thanks.
10:40<Pinkbeast>I tend to have the station display open sorting by waiting cargo value so I can notice when comedy ensues.
10:40<AquSe>lol
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10:42<AquSe>By the way, I hosted a standalone to play on LAN and the only bus I can buy is the MPS Regal.
10:43<AquSe>Is this an issue with my stand-alone being mis-configured or something else?
10:43<Pinkbeast>What year is it?
10:43<AquSe>1933
10:43<AquSe>Just wait for them to come out?
10:44<Pinkbeast>Yes; the next bus is in '64. The default vehicle sets are very sparse.
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10:44<AquSe>K thanks :)
10:44<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Buses
10:45<@Alberth>around '64, openttd adds a bit of randomization
10:51<@Rubidium>planetmaker: well, the database has the list
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10:59<@planetmaker>I know, Rubidium. But I faintly recall that you had the list extracted at some point. And wondered whether you still had it somewhere
10:59<@Rubidium>probably not
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11:00<krinn>it would help if you want us to follow that "reuse keywords" to provide a link to a page showing them no ?
11:00<@planetmaker>^ :-)
11:00<@Rubidium>maybe TrueBrain has such a list, or made such a page?
11:01<@planetmaker>I only found a pre-history tt-f thread: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=41473
11:01<@planetmaker>s/history/historic/
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11:11<AquSe>Is there a hotkey to hide the trees?
11:11<AquSe>Can't see what I'm building.
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11:11<Eddi|zuHause>X
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>(and Ctrl+X)
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11:12<AquSe>Ooh thx, didn't even see that on the GUI.
11:12<AquSe>if it's there
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11:13<Siiig>Hi openTTD! Are there any rules against asking questions?
11:14<@Alberth>no
11:14<@Alberth>the only rule is not to ask whether you can ask a question
11:14<Siiig>BAM banned
11:14<Siiig>=P
11:14<@Alberth>can be arranged if you like :)
11:14<Siiig>q.q;
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>the first rule is you don't talk about it
11:15<Siiig>I was hoping to get some help understanding the signals in the game for trains
11:15<@Alberth>k
11:15<Siiig>I delved into the wiki, thought I understood it, then realized I didn't
11:15<@Alberth>concentrate on path signals
11:15<@Alberth>they are sufficient for all situations
11:16<Xaroth|Work>there's a rule
11:16<Xaroth|Work>don't ask to ask
11:17<Siiig>Mind if I upload a picture somewhere? Maybe you can tell me what I'm doing wrong. I'm only using path signals, and my setup is super simple at the momment
11:17<Pinkbeast>Siiig: We'll gladly take a look - please avoid JPG, though, it squashes the colours in OTTD very badly.
11:17<@Alberth>not at all, pictures or save games are the easiest to start discussing
11:18<Siiig>http://tinypic.com/r/flhqht/5
11:19<Pinkbeast>Siiig: I would put the signal before the line split before the station.
11:19<AquSe>Siiig: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ5NM1AWtDs helped me a lot with signals. I can now create sufficient enough train pathways without crashing.
11:20<AquSe>Didn't understand anything on the wiki either.
11:20<AquSe>At first.
11:20<Pinkbeast>Siiig: A path signal says "it is safe to wait here". But if a train waits at one of those, it's already picked a platform, perhaps not knowing which platform will be free next.
11:20<Pinkbeast>Also, you probably want a one-way signal in there to stop trains going backwards towards the depot.
11:21<Siiig>I also have a signal at both of the far end stations
11:21<Siiig>is that wrong?
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>you want a signal directly behind the platform, but not before it
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11:23<Eddi|zuHause>you also want a signal short before the depot, otherwise trains won't go there
11:23<Siiig>Lol, four die in horrific train accident
11:23<Siiig>Sorry Eddi, I don't follow what you mean by a signal directly behind the platform
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11:24<Eddi|zuHause>if this is the train direction ->
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>[before the platform] [platform] [behind the platform]
11:24<Siiig>Currently, in the picture I put up, trains come "in" from both directions
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>then the signals are the wrong way around, they should be facing towards the platform
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>select the signal tool and click on the signal to turn them around
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>the train should wait in the platform, so the train must be able to see the signal from the platform
11:26<Siiig>Oooooooo
11:27<Siiig>I didn't actually realize they could be reversed like that
11:27<Siiig>Alright, two crashes in a row. Clearly I'm not understanding something lmao
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>never change signals while trains are nearby :p
11:28<AquSe>Is there a way to automatically make a train go to a train depot and refit its containers
11:28<AquSe>Or need a second train?
11:28<Pinkbeast>Siiig: If you don't a) order a train to pass a signal explicitly or b) change a signal a train is interacting with, that will never happen.
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>AquSe: there are refit orders
11:28<AquSe>Eddi|zuHause: Greyed out.
11:29<Pinkbeast>AquSe: These days you can autorefit at stations. If you can't do it with that, you need another train; there is no way to get a locomotive to change rolling stock in a depot.
11:29<AquSe>Okay, thx.
11:29<Pinkbeast>Er actually I think some patchpacks have had refit orders but let's not go there
11:30<Siiig>Could it have happened if my signals were facing the wrong way?
11:30<Pinkbeast>Siiig: No, but it could happen if you reversed a signal while a train was approaching it.
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>AquSe: the refit orders are only available with "go to depot" orders by default, and you have to have a refitable vehicle
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>AquSe: some vehicle sets allow refitting at stations as well
11:30<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: you might like this; working on a console interface to talk to the server; powered by libottdadmin2 ofcourse
11:30<Pinkbeast>AquSe: Ah, listen to Eddi, my knowledge may be out of date or confused
11:31<Xaroth|Work>almost as if you're running a python interpreter
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>Siiig: trains cannot ever crash unless you change the tracks/signals or force a train through a signal
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11:32<Siiig>I see
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11:33<Eddi|zuHause>Siiig: the advanced settings have a setting to show the path a train has reversed, there you might get an idea how the trains behave
11:34<Pinkbeast>ITYM "reserved"
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>err
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>i reversed something :p
11:38<Siiig>So, I just forced a train to skip the signal
11:38<Siiig>And it's constantly waiting for a free path
11:38<Siiig>Even though the paths never interesected
11:39<Pinkbeast>Siiig: Show us another screenie. :-)
11:40<Siiig>may have just fixed it
11:40<Siiig>or might be causing another train crash
11:40<Siiig>will know momentarily =P
11:41<Siiig>Woot! Figured it out
11:41<Xaroth|Work>awww
11:41<Xaroth|Work>no train crash
11:41<Xaroth|Work>:(
11:41<Siiig>I've already killed 12 people today >:)
11:41<@planetmaker>12 pixels
11:42<AquSe>Ey guys, you know area coverage? If I build a bus station and the area coverage overlaps another bus station's area coverage, who will take the people from the area that overlaps?
11:42<@planetmaker>they'd be soylent green sooner or later anyway
11:42<@planetmaker>both
11:42<AquSe>Both?
11:42<AquSe>They split up?
11:42<@planetmaker>one more, one less. Depends on how well they're serviced. Yes
11:43<Xaroth|Work>the better the service, the more go there
11:43<Xaroth|Work>so if you don't service 1 bus stop, they all go to the 2nd
11:43<AquSe>Ah okay.
11:43<Xaroth|Work>(eventually)
11:43<AquSe>K thx :3
11:46<AquSe>http://wiki.openttd.org/Carriages_Comparison What does the rail and mono-rail mean? The weight changes on different tracks or something?
11:46<Xaroth|Work>different typos of rail
11:46<Xaroth|Work>monorail unlocks later on
11:46<Xaroth|Work>(before maglev unlocks)
11:46<AquSe>Mhm.
11:46<AquSe>And then how do I know how much my train can carry?
11:46<AquSe>The capacity on trains is N/A
11:47<Xaroth|Work>the trains themselves don't carry items then
11:47<Xaroth|Work>the carriages do
11:47<AquSe>O yea
11:47<AquSe>But is there a formula on the train speed that includes carriage weights
11:47<Pinkbeast>AquSe: The "train comparison" chart is actually a locomotive comparison chart, so they rarely carry cargo.
11:48<Pinkbeast>AquSe: There isn't (alas) really a good way to predict train speeds over a given terrain beyond experience.
11:48<Pinkbeast>AquSe: ... it's harder still in patchpacks where tractive effort is meaningful as well as power output
11:48<AquSe>Mhm okay.
11:49<AquSe>So basically just eye ball it he-he
11:50<Pinkbeast>Well, once you've run a few, you'll get an idea - knowing that the Jubilee has thrice the power of the starting tank engine but a higher top speed, I'd stick on twice as big a train and see how it goes.
11:50<@planetmaker>AquSe, you don't know the speed of the car either by just looking at their top speed while you load a yet undefined amount of cargo in a trailer it has to tow
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11:50<@planetmaker>you need to factor in power, too. And whether you go up or down hill
11:50<@planetmaker>thus... there can't be an easy predictor
11:50<AquSe>Thx planetmaker.
11:51<Pinkbeast>There's no reason why OTTD can't tell you some speed facts in advance, but it doesn't. Alas.
11:53<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, there's all the reason... as I just outlined
11:53<@planetmaker>Xaroth, you work on it within the lib or within a separate client? :-)
11:53<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Which I read, and still wrote what I wrote, so maybe I am not totally oblivious to those considerations?
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11:54<@planetmaker>only you can tell. But it gives the impression ;-)
11:55<AquSe>Well, there could always be a feature to tell you the train's travel time between 2 stations. Although that would go too technical I guess. And doesn't consider other trains.
11:55<@planetmaker>AquSe, yes... time table it. Then it actually measures it
11:55<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Not really, if you think about it. There's absolutely no reason OTTD can't determine and display peak loaded speed (as say RRT3 does) on the flat and up certain predetermined grades.
11:55<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, and what's "loaded speed"?
11:56<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: I have no non-facetious answer to that question.
11:56<@planetmaker>a crate can weigh 1/4t, 1/2t, 1t - depending on cargo
11:56<@planetmaker>and yet still the vehicle can be full with, say, two crates
11:56<Pinkbeast>The maximum load is not unknown.
11:56<@planetmaker>could well be, if you enable auto-refit
11:57<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: part of the scripts that come with libottdadmin2
11:57<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. The train I'm constructing in the depot has a maximum load; the hypothetical case where it might autorefit to carry osmium is no reason not to tell me how fast it moves as-is.
11:58<@planetmaker>yes, perfect is always the enemy of the good. We'll have a bug report about that in less than a day, if it isn't correct
11:59<@planetmaker>One could maybe call it estimated top speed
11:59<@planetmaker>but... well
11:59<Pinkbeast>That's not an argument about technical feasibility, and all I said was it was possible.
11:59<@planetmaker>Xaroth, I see :-) I wondered whether it works with the soap or separately :-)
12:00<@planetmaker>possible... possible to give an estimate which is sometimes wrong. Depending on NewGRF(s) always wrong
12:01<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: So clearly worse than the current situation where the player must estimate in their head, which is always wrong.
12:01<@planetmaker>current situation is, that it is a challenge, yes. A game w/o challenges is boring
12:01<AquSe>Pinkbeast: did you just insult my intelligence?
12:02<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Gratuitously hiding information is a strange sort of challenge.
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12:02<Pinkbeast>AquSe: Only inasmuch as I insulted my own.
12:02<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, it's not hidden information. It's something which does not exist anywhere
12:03<@planetmaker>the information can only be obtained by simulating the train running on tracks
12:03<@planetmaker>with actual cargo
12:03<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Something which is eminently feasible, so...
12:03<@planetmaker>yeah. Just do it
12:04<@planetmaker>sell the train, if you're dis-satisfied. You might even get (nearly) full refund
12:04<@planetmaker>and my judgement usually is good enough to see whether an engine is up to the task, looking at speed *and* power
12:04<@planetmaker>and knowing my usual trainlength
12:04<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Again, that's no argument against what I said; a) OTTD doesn't do this b) OTTD could do this c) I would like this.
12:05<Pinkbeast>note, there is _no_ d) someone should write this for me.
12:05<@planetmaker>d) will be annoying as hell when it absolutely doesn't work with the newgrfs you use
12:06<@planetmaker>and openttd integrating a simulation of its own just for an estimate speed value? Sounds thoroughly over-engineered
12:06<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: I think that's largely a hypothetical case which (if real) could easily be addressed by turning it off or not looking at it. The rare expert user building a train in the depot to carry feathers and refit to lead knows what they're doing.
12:07<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: As I said, RRT3 does it, and there are obviously better ways to do it than running a large number of ticks of simulated train
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12:08<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, as said now multiple times: there probably are few, if any, game which allow so freely-programmable vehicles by add-on as openttd. thus prediction cannot be done. It has to be built and tested. OpenTTD could in principle build internally a virtual one and run it, get the result and display that. But it's not like just adding two numbers
12:09<AquSe>Does the game not support plugins/addons?
12:09<AquSe>Well, looks like it does since you just mentioned add-in.
12:09<AquSe>on*
12:10<Siiig>So just out of curiosity, when you guys start up a new map, do you aim to have no loans or do you borrow to your hearts content?
12:10<@planetmaker>Siiig, there's a limit to the loan :-)
12:11<@planetmaker>use it to get a quick start is my advice
12:11<@planetmaker>pay back when money is no issue any longer
12:11<AquSe>Yeah, the interest isn't that high.
12:12<AquSe>By the way, can you bribe the city council to allow construction?
12:13<AquSe>Really frustrating when you got all the infrastructure set-up and then the city declines the permit.
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12:14<@Alberth>AquSe: first build the station, then chop trees as much as you want :)
12:15<@Alberth>having a few well serviced buses in the town also helps in restoring your reputation faster
12:15<Siiig>That's generally my plan
12:15<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: I really don't think this is a meaningful objection. The train UI is willing to show me a loaded weight.
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12:15<@planetmaker>yes, you can bribe. it costs loads and may or may not be successful
12:15*Alberth usually only services industries
12:16*AquSe .
12:16*AquSe Usually only services people *wink* *wink*
12:16<@planetmaker>but you can simply also plant trees on empty tiles around the city. They're real tree huggers here
12:17<Pinkbeast>... better make sure they aren't tiles you plan to build on later
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12:18<TWerkhoven>once the station is built, who cares
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12:18<TWerkhoven>you can jack up your ratings by providing good service
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12:21<AquSe>Any way to make one-way roads allowed on your server?
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12:52<AquSe>By the way, are pasengers treated as any other cargo? For example if I have an airport and a bus that goes from the city to the airport, will the people stay there and wait for another bus/train/plane to take them?
12:52<AquSe>s/pasengers/passangers
12:52<AquSe>passengers*
12:52<AquSe>lol
12:58<Pinkbeast>AquSe: Passengers aren't fundamentally different. They don't have a destination in mind, and you have to do complicated fiddles with transfer orders to get them to make more than one journey. But that is changing to a degree with the introduction of "cargodist" into the game.
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12:59<AquSe>Mm, I'm testing it right now and the passengers simply don't get off at the station near the train station, because it doesn't accept them?
13:00<AquSe>By the way, what are transfer orders.
13:00<@planetmaker>it must be the same. Not near
13:00<AquSe>The same?
13:00<@planetmaker>i.e. one station sign
13:00<@planetmaker>the wiki can explain transfer better than I can do here
13:01<AquSe>O
13:01<AquSe>I just found transfer on the wiki
13:01<AquSe>I was searching for 'transfer orders'
13:01<Pinkbeast>And when building a station, if you Ctrl-click you can select if you're trying to build more of a nearby station or build a new station.
13:02<AquSe>Yea I see :3
13:02<@planetmaker>actually... feeder service :D http://wiki.openttd.org/Feeder_service
13:03<AquSe>lol
13:03<AquSe>Lemme take a look.
13:05<@planetmaker>though the orders page certainly has loads of info on orders, too :-)
13:10<AquSe>Yay I just made it, it works.
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13:19<Eddi|zuHause>you can also download the nightly version, there you can set up passengers to have a destination, then they will automatically get off at airports in the middle of nowhere
13:22<AquSe>What's the difference between nightly and normal version?
13:24<AquSe>nvm found wiki
13:26<TinoDidriksen>Nightly goes boom.
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25641 /trunk/src/lang (8 files) (2013-07-31 17:45:53 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 2 changes by juanjo
13:46<@DorpsGek>english_US - 2 changes by Rubidium
13:46<@DorpsGek>estonian - 30 changes by KSiimson
13:46<@DorpsGek>finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:46<@DorpsGek>japanese - 6 changes by guppy
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:46<@DorpsGek>serbian - 64 changes by trgo
13:46<@DorpsGek>slovak - 2 changes by Milsa
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13:51<@planetmaker>ho andythenorth
13:51<@Alberth>o/
13:53<andythenorth>o/
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13:54<krinn>dunno who made that one, but he should get a golden statue ! http://wiki.openttd.org/File:Directions.png can't live without it!
13:55<@planetmaker>the page you link says "Zuu"
13:55<krinn>lmao i just saw that :)
13:55<krinn>i understand why he made this one !
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13:57<Wolf01>ho o/
13:57<krinn>hi
13:58<@Alberth>o/
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>you could find that info in the source code as well
13:59<krinn>yes, but the picture speak better
14:03<andythenorth>http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/4/5/0/6450.1374803432.jpg
14:03<@Rubidium>not a lego train :(
14:04<@Alberth>but it looks very small :)
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>very shortened
14:06<andythenorth>Great Salt Lake
14:06<andythenorth>quite astounding imo
14:06<andythenorth>anyway
14:06<andythenorth>questions
14:06<andythenorth>can we sort out groups and consists?
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>no
14:06<andythenorth>groups are imo easily sorted out: there's nothing wrong with them
14:07<andythenorth>just leaving consists as 'todo'
14:07<@Alberth>groups are too single minded imho
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>groups should be replaced/amended by filters/views
14:07<@Alberth>+1
14:07<andythenorth>ok, a consensus :)
14:08<andythenorth>I only have one use case for a group: replacing vehicles
14:08<andythenorth>I have to create a group, add all vehicles with shared orders in, then set a replace rule
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>"SELECT * FROM Trains WHERE cargo == coal AND profit > 10000"
14:08<andythenorth>tbh, if I could replace just on the shared orders, groups could be binned far as I am concerned :P
14:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: filter stack
14:09<andythenorth>simples
14:09<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25642 trunk/config.lib (2013-07-31 18:09:21 UTC)
14:09<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r25638): Compilation with static ICU
14:09<@Alberth>a few weeks I had a problem with a ring
14:10<@Alberth>say you have a ring of 4 stations, double tracks all around, no crossings
14:10<@Alberth>N trains go clockwise, M trains go counter clockwise
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>the function i miss the most is "split all ungrouped vehicles into new groups based on shared orders"
14:10<@Alberth>question how big is N and how big is M ?
14:11<@Alberth>you cannot select on station, as both sets visit the same stations
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes, "how many trams serve this line"
14:11<@Belugas>trams.. memories... click click... go back to work :(
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14:12<andythenorth>Alberth: can't you select on the shared order?
14:12<andythenorth>or is there one order set?
14:12<@Alberth>shared order should be possible
14:13*Alberth ponders the problems of having several groups with shared orders that look the same
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14:14<Eddi|zuHause>nesting groups could be useful as well (e.g. "trams of city A" -> "tram line A-1", "tram line A-2" ...
14:14<@Alberth>or by chain of industries
14:15<@Alberth>in other words, sufficient work to do there :p
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. "coal trains" -> "coal mine A", "coal mine B", ...
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>it's mostly an interface thing, hardly any internals have to be touched
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>but if you want to treat "views" (stations, etc.) like "user"-groups, then they cannot be nested
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>which means autoreplace needs a new concept
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>or autoreplace can't apply to "views" (=temporary groups), only "real" (permanent) groups
14:18<@Alberth>I want it to apply to consists
14:19<@planetmaker>hm. OpenTTD doesn't compile for me on 10.4 :D
14:19<@Alberth>ie from nuts engine1+1st type wood wagons to engine3 + 2nd type wood wagons
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>"consists" should be "virtual trains". but that wasn't my point. i meant "if a vehicle is in two non-nested groups, which group's autoreplace rule will be appplied?"
14:21<frosch123>andythenorth: did you already drop "liveries" into the discussion?
14:22<andythenorth>liveries are verboten
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>so like: in the autoreplace window you can switch between "replace vehicles" and "replace consists", then it lists all consists in the current group, and in a new section of the window you get like a virtual depot where you can add vehicles (internally "real" vehicles with "owner=none"?), rearrange them, refit them, etc.
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>oh, random thought: the depot window needs a "refit" button for the vehicles (e.g. next to the start/stop flag)
14:28<andythenorth>biab - bathtime
14:29<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: depots also need a "verboten" sign on the flag, if the consist is invaild
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that would be useful
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14:30<frosch123>you also need the short cargo text as overlay over the wagons
14:30<frosch123>to see what they carry
14:30<frosch123>instead of only rmb
14:31<frosch123>toggleable ofc
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>that might be awkward with very short wagons
14:31<Siiig>You guys are so awesome. I understand signals now, and it's great
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14:41<@Alberth>wait until you find out what tricks openttdcoop people do with it :p
14:42<V453000>there are no tricks.
14:42<V453000>:>
14:42<V453000>iz all legit!
14:42<Xaroth|Work>iz all cawazay
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14:47<@Alberth>V453000: that makes it even more awesome
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>if it were tricks, they wouldn't be allowed to tell how they worked :p
14:49<V453000>ha :D blak magix
14:49<frosch123>the rainbow magic is in the tracks
14:50<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25643 /trunk/src/os/macosx (macos.h osx_stdafx.h) (2013-07-31 18:50:01 UTC)
14:50<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r25480): [OSX] Define version constants before they're used
14:56<frosch123>phew, 25 left
14:57<frosch123>bisecting is kind of boring
14:57<@planetmaker>what do you bisect?
14:57<frosch123>5684
14:58<Siiig>Is there any way to make a train have an easier time going up hill?
14:58<@planetmaker>more engines. more powerful engines. less steep hills (adv. settings)
14:59<@planetmaker>oh, and of course: less wagons
14:59<@planetmaker>and less heavy wagons
14:59<V453000>+ realistic acceleration
14:59<@planetmaker>^ yeah... I keep forgetting that there's something like 'original acceleration'
14:59<Xaroth|Work>bloody hell this script gets bigger and bigger by the second :o
14:59<V453000>ALSO, I just got a brutal windows event of crashing ALL applications including explorer and task manager, meaning that you couldnt start any process :D do that with linux!
15:00<Xaroth|Work>pkill -9 init
15:00<@Rubidium>frosch123: r25495?
15:00<frosch123>yes
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15:00<frosch123>just arrived there :(
15:01<andythenorth>what's the shortest wagon? Is it smaller than a cargo icon?
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth|Work: can you even kill init nowadays?
15:02<V453000>1/8 is really fuck-small
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: about 4 pixels
15:03<V453000>or this precise definition
15:03<frosch123>Rubidium: already more knowledge about the issue?
15:03<@Rubidium>frosch123: no
15:03<andythenorth>cargo icons appear to be 10px
15:04<@Rubidium>just that I reckon it be very likely to be that particular change
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15:06<Eddi|zuHause>@commit 25495
15:06<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r25495 trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp (2013-06-28 18:09:07 UTC)
15:06<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Fix [FS#5553]: when addings bits to a (train) station, the train trying to stop there could overshoot the (new) stop location and not stop at all
15:07<@Rubidium>V453000: maybe you can do it by attaching a debugger to init and then killing the debugger. That works with winlogon (at least on XP), or at least it will force a reboot of Windows
15:07<V453000>:>
15:09<frosch123>andythenorth: try debug vehicles :p
15:09<andythenorth>do we refit those? :P
15:10<frosch123>i think they carry random cargos
15:10<frosch123>but someone used them in a multiplayer game
15:10<V453000>LOL
15:10<V453000>NUTS is behind in something
15:10<frosch123>sadly the msu grf list does not record how often a server is started using particular grfs :p
15:11<frosch123>V453000: ah, sorry. they carry determinstic cargos :)
15:11<V453000>:(
15:11<V453000>.
15:11<frosch123>as in iec random numbers
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>"return 4"
15:11<V453000>well I promised not to randomize numbers either
15:11<V453000>:P
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>i want to randomize vehicle selection in CETS
15:12<@Alberth>mathicians all over the world will thank you for that
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>as in: one time you start with saxon vehicles, other time with swiss, ...
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15:25<krinn>nothing could beat bach... so famous i can't believe he wasn't french
15:26*krinn listen aria
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15:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I am +1 to your proposal for consist editing
15:44<andythenorth>how can it be done?
15:44<andythenorth>think of the lives we'll save :P
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15:46<@Alberth>with lots of hard work
15:47<frosch123>isn't there already a patch for that on the froums?
15:48<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=58904
15:52*andythenorth reads
15:56<andythenorth>hmm
15:56<andythenorth>are 'consists' valid for changing via orders?
15:56<andythenorth>that sounds non-orthogonal to other things imo
15:56<andythenorth>i.e. bad
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15:57<frosch123>sounds like rondje om de kerk
15:57<frosch123>orders: buy train, transport cargo, sell train, rebuy at start
16:00<andythenorth>smart strategy
16:00*andythenorth has occasionally used it :P
16:02<andythenorth>so that patch last updated Apr 2013
16:03<andythenorth>hmm fails against r25630
16:03<andythenorth>latest I have :P
16:03<andythenorth>oh there's a different link for the patch, not the one in first post :(
16:04<AquSe>Wait, how the hell do you make banks work?
16:04<AquSe>They require valuables and they also produce valuables.
16:04<frosch123>don't use transfers, or use cdist
16:04<andythenorth>just run an armoured truck / train between them
16:04<AquSe>Ah okay.
16:04<andythenorth>hmm, the new patch fails too
16:05<andythenorth>I'm on hg, so upping to 24093 is an exercise in figuring out the rev :P
16:06<frosch123>just import the binary search module into your brain
16:07<andythenorth>ok
16:07<andythenorth>done
16:07<andythenorth>now what
16:07<frosch123>or use "grep -B 5"
16:07<@Alberth>hg log -k r24093
16:08<frosch123>oh, even easier
16:08<@Alberth>good night
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16:09<andythenorth>winner
16:09<frosch123>yeah, it's amazing what hg features you miss, if you are used to just using grep and sed for everything :p
16:10*andythenorth compiles this patch
16:10<andythenorth>hopefully :P
16:11<andythenorth>meh, fails
16:11<andythenorth>src/aaa_template_vehicle_func.h:10: warning: ‘REPLACEMENT_IN_PROGRESS’ defined but not used
16:11<andythenorth>make[1]: *** [aaa_template_vehicle_func.o] Error 1
16:12<@planetmaker>that's not the error
16:12<andythenorth>and many other errors and warnings
16:12<andythenorth>a very many
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16:12<andythenorth>possibly hundreds
16:13<frosch123>more than dozen?
16:14<andythenorth>trying to see if it is EAndythenorth
16:15<andythenorth>oh
16:15<andythenorth>this patch requires cdist to be patched in first
16:16<andythenorth>as he says - 'what a mess' :P
16:16<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> are 'consists' valid for changing via orders? <-- that
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>'s called shunting
16:16<andythenorth>yeah, the thread seems to have a lot of enthusiasm about that
16:16<andythenorth>it wasn't what I thought consists were for
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's quite a step beyond consist-replacement, indeed
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>but that should be a separate kind of feature
16:18<andythenorth>I am dubious about more complexity
16:18<andythenorth>already with cdist and autorefit, I barely understand what my vehicles are actually doing :)
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>one where you treat engine-less wagon chains as "train", and then compose trains via orders
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16:19<andythenorth>it's kind of fun, but brain-hurting
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>i do think this can be handled totally independent
16:20<andythenorth>fwiw, here are the errors and warnings I get from this patch http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2449/
16:20<andythenorth>using the version linked here http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=158280
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. one feature doesn't require/depend on the other
16:20<andythenorth>consists are labour saving
16:20<andythenorth>reduces micro-management
16:21<andythenorth>shunting is about some people's gameplay fun
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>is that just me or does that paste consist only of empty lines?
16:21<andythenorth>hmm
16:21<andythenorth>first time I pasted it was empty
16:21<andythenorth>so I pasted again, looked fine
16:21<andythenorth>the link is the second paste
16:21<frosch123>"raw" looks fine
16:21<andythenorth>oh
16:21<andythenorth>empty again :(
16:22<andythenorth>pastebin oddity
16:22-!-Aristide [~quassel@81.253.21.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>"raw" is stuck at 1,2kB
16:22<frosch123>it also works when disabling line numbers
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16:27<Eddi|zuHause>now the server is broken :(
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>no help from me then...
16:28<andythenorth>http://pastebin.com/V7kGvGiv
16:28<frosch123> /Users/andy/Documents/workspace/openttd/src/aaa_template_gui_replaceall.cpp:530: error: redefinition of ‘struct VirtTrainInfo’ <- the redefintion errors are the crucial ones
16:29<frosch123>maybe eandythenorth applied the patch twice
16:29<andythenorth>could be
16:29<frosch123>so the file is all double
16:30<andythenorth>hg revert would have taken care of that?
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16:30<andythenorth>I ran revert before patching in case of any other lingering changes
16:30<frosch123>it's a new file
16:30<andythenorth>ah
16:30<frosch123>you could have used hg import instead of patch
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16:34<andythenorth>hmm
16:35<andythenorth>I tried cleaning up and reapplying
16:35<andythenorth>I should clone a new repo, this one is full of crap
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16:36<Eddi|zuHause>hg status | grep ^? | xargs rm (works as long as you have no files with spaces)
16:36<frosch123>and ? files
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>those wouldn't be at the start of the line
16:37<frosch123>hg purge
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>bah, builtin crap :p
16:38<andythenorth>I have other stuff lying around in my repo I don't want to purge :P
16:38<andythenorth>patches and crap
16:38<andythenorth>I cloned a new repo
16:38<andythenorth>hg import fails :P
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>move those out of the repo :)
16:38<andythenorth>cloning is cheap ;)
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16:40<andythenorth>clean repo, patch claims to have succeeded, still won't build
16:41<andythenorth>http://pastebin.com/17BNjMnv
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16:41<andythenorth>I don't need to solve this tonight, was just trying to be helpful by testing
16:41<frosch123>fix the casts :)
16:41<AquSe>Guys, what's the command to make a dedi use a specific save? Or should I just download a server configuration GUI.
16:42<frosch123>the author apparently used an old compiler, which allows silly things
16:42<AquSe>nvm
16:42<AquSe>It's 'load'
16:42<@planetmaker>Users/andy/Documents/workspace/openttd2/src/aaa_template_vehicle_func.cpp:69: error: cast from ‘const Train*’ to ‘unsigned int’ loses precision
16:42<andythenorth>is that worth reporting in the thread?
16:42<@planetmaker>if you like the patch: yes
16:43<andythenorth>I have no idea yet :)
16:43<andythenorth>the concept is wanted
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16:43<andythenorth>the screenshot is underwhelming
16:44<frosch123>andythenorth: replace the %x with %p in the printfs
16:44<frosch123>or remove it completely
16:44<frosch123>not much use in printing pointers
16:44<frosch123>to console
16:46*andythenorth tries
16:47<andythenorth>ho
16:47<andythenorth>new errors :)
16:47<andythenorth>too late for this today I think
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17:10<@planetmaker>good night
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17:16<@Terkhen>good night
17:17<andythenorth>bye
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17:17<frosch123>night
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17:24<NGC3982>Evening.
17:31<__ln__>so why do colognians call their streets Somethinggasse rather than Somethingstraße?
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17:33<MNIM>Cologne is Koln, right?
17:35<__ln__>no, Köln
17:42<MNIM>well yes, but I can't type the umlaut on this board without having to use the special characters window.
17:42<MNIM>but yeah
17:42<MNIM>I never got why people insist on using the french designation for the german city.
17:42<dihedral>__ln__, it's like street to lane to road etc.
17:43<dihedral>ave. ...
17:43<dihedral>how to make 'street' special again? make everything else an avenue :-P
17:44<__ln__>MNIM: with german names, you can write ö as oe, and that's even quite acceptable, afaik.
17:46<__ln__>alright, so a kind of local naming policy for streets
17:47<__ln__>though it's possible the streets of Cologne were not named exactly very recently
17:49<NGC3982>Ö!
17:50<megakacktus>I see in the Todo list someone wants a filter added to the load dialog... has this been worked on yet?
17:51<megakacktus>I would like to attempt adding that
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17:51<krinn>MNIM because nobody knows "l'eau de Köln"
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18:02<dihedral>TrueBrain, if rcon output needs seme type of 'end of rcon' marker - would it make sense to have an end of client list and end of company list and ....
18:03<dihedral>as a bot can request the server to send client info on all clients, but has no way of telling if the server has finished :-P
18:07<Aristide>http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/p480x480/1003483_589223211130430_1020548397_n.jpg <3
18:07<Aristide>Hi !
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18:08<scshunt>openttd should add ferries
18:09<peter1139>do it
18:09<peter1139>i had a patch for that once
18:09<peter1139>it was majorly incomplete though
18:13<megakacktus>peter1139: ferries?
18:13<peter1139>nah
18:13<peter1139>got as far as talking about it :p
18:16<__ln__>you had a patch that was talking about ferries?
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18:19<TrueBrain>dihedral: I have 0.1 knowledge of the admin port, and I tend to keep it that way; talk to Xaroth ;) And you just need 1 packet if that holds true, indicating end of message ;)
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18:25<dihedral>i would then create a packet that denotes End Of with the content of the Packet Type that it is marking the end of
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18:31<Xaroth|Work>yep
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18:38<Wolf01>'night
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18:51<Xaroth|Work>nn
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 01 00:00:35 2013